End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

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1. I worry that too many Christians will be putting their trust in a pre-trib rapture than they will put their trust in Christ Himself. Thank you for your admonition for Christians to make disciples now. Please visit my blog and pass it along as well.

   God bless,
   Chad

   http://readyfortribulation.wordpress.com
   http://www.posttribrapture.com

   Comment by readyfortribulation | August 12, 2007

2. I hope that all these people that claim that the rapture will happen in 2007 are not false prophets. I hope that they have not been decieved by demonic spirits or just using this as a tool to sell their books etc. However, if what they say is true then all chritians need to get themselves prepared for the wedding of the lamb.

   Comment by Eric | September 23, 2007

3. Eric: I think they are false prophets (some albeit with the best of intentions). The reason being is that many things have to happen first before the rapture. These things have not yet happened such as the revelation of the antichist, the tribulation, etc. When the antichrist is revealed, you’ll have a better idea of timing.

   Comment by endtimespropheticwords | September 23, 2007

4. Eric, You are right! II Thessalonians chapter 2 says that there must be a falling away first, which in the greek means “The Apostasy” set up and the Son of perdition revealed. Most Christians miss this because they are taught wrong about the rapture and never check it out for themselves. Also I Corinthians 15:2 says “In the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP”! Read in Revelations what happens at the last trump! Even christians are being lead to get the “Mark of the beast”!

   Comment by Elizabeth LaChance | October 17, 2007

5. I don’t think we’re waiting on anything, nothing must happen before the rapture. The last trump, that could be the voice calling us, that what it says his voice sounds like. I’m ready, but stopping until it happens.

   Comment by Nikki | October 19, 2007

6. PRE,MID or END rapture! What ever happens,happens!!!that will be up to the Lord. But this is TRUTH, you MUST live today & every day as if the trumpet will blow in the next second while planing to live on the earth for 100 years establishing the Lord Jesus Christ Great Commission, the Good News. So tell the world and focus on him.

   Comment by paul luxford | November 25, 2007

7. (The following is from my book, Total Eclipse: Christ Returns. Hope it helps.

   The Problem with Pretribulationism

   Pretribulationism, the teaching that the church will be taken out of the world before the time of the great tribulation, is problematic. There is no question that the Scriptures teach the visible second coming of the Lord Jesus in glory with His angels, and that when He comes the church will be caught up to meet Him in the air. But no Scriptures state or imply that the Lord Jesus is coming before the great tribulation.

   While many who teach and believe this doctrine are sincere, an examination of cited Scripture passages and the doctrinal reasoning employed to support this doctrine reveal faulty Bible study methodology.

   The cornerstone of this methodology is the reading of unclear passages of Scriptures in the light or bias of the pretribulation hypothesis. Correct Bible study requires that unclear passages of Scripture be read in the light of clearer passages that speak about the same subject. Scripture interprets Scripture. A clearly stated hypothesis should never be used to clarify the meaning of an unclear Scripture passage. Context, language, intent of the author, and other clearer Scripture passages should be used.

   The following is an example of reading an unclear Bible passage in the light of a hypothesis.

   False hypothesis: The Bible teaches that UFOs with people from other planets have visited the earth. This is supported by the following Scriptures:

   Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven (2 Kings 2:11)

   And as I looked, behold, a storm wind was coming from the north, a great cloud with fire flashing forth continually and a bright light around it, and in its midst something like glowing metal in the midst of the fire (Ezekiel 1:4).

   Incorrect reasoning and conclusion: A chariot of fire that flies like a whirlwind into heaven with Elijah is just another way of describing a flying saucer. Glowing metal in the midst of a storm cloud of fire is Ezekiel’s way of describing a flying saucer. The passages cited support and confirm that UFOs from other planets have visited the earth.
   The problem method
   The hypothesis, with all of its details, was introduced first. This created a certain light or context in the mind of the reader. Next, the passages were read to support the hypothesis. Ignored were the contexts which said nothing about flying saucers or other planets. The hypothesis achieved undeserved authority because it was proposed to be a plausible explanation of the Scriptures cited.
   The Rise of Pretribulationism
   In early 19th century England, the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture of the church grew from the use of the above method. A clear hypothesis was stated, and various, less specific passages were appealed to for support. In an environment of renewed interest in prophecy, the doctrine grew like wildfire.

   Following is an examination of Scriptures often cited to support the pretribulation hypothesis. After examining the passage and the arguments presented for its meaning, ask these questions:

   • What does this passage clearly and unmistakably say?
   • If the meaning of the passage is not clear by itself, what clear and unambiguous Scripture passages or methods am I using to understand the passage?
   • Am I arriving at the meaning of the Scripture with the aid of the hypothesis?
   The Church and God’s Wrath
   1 Thess. 5:9 “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
   Pretribulation reasoning:
   • The great tribulation is uniquely a time of God’s wrath.
   • God’s wrath is poured out on all inhabitants of the earth.
   • God has not destined true believers for wrath.

   Incorrect conclusion: The church cannot be present on the earth during the time of the great tribulation because the wrath of God would necessarily be directed toward it. Therefore the church must be raptured before the great tribulation. One pretribulation author, John Walvoord, says: “The church therefore cannot enter ’the great day of their wrath‘” (Rev. 6:17).
   Problems with this reasoning:
   First, every reader should study the Bible reference John Walvoord and others use to support the above conclusion. The passage makes no such claim. While it is true that God’s wrath is poured out during the great tribulation (Rev. 6:17, 15:1, 16:1), it is not true that all persons on the earth at the time of the tribulation are the subjects of God’s wrath. The book of Revelation speaks about saints living on earth during the time that God’s wrath is being displayed (7:14, 11:3-12, 12:6, 13-17, 13:7, 14:12, 16:15). Some of these saints are the very agents of God’s wrath (Rev.11:5-6). Jesus taught his disciples that the saints would be on the earth during the great tribulation, and then gathered together after the tribulation (Matt. 24:3-31, note vv. 29-31). The saints are not the target of God’s wrath during this time, but are persecuted by the beast (Rev. 13:7). When God comes, his wrath is directed toward those who are persecuting the saints, and He provides relief for the suffering saints (2 Thess. 1:6-10).

   Pretribulation authors typically acknowledge that there will be saints on the earth during the tribulation, but they deny that such saints are members of the church. This assertion grows from dispensationalism, a method of interpreting Scripture that distinguishes Israel from the church in the last days. Thus they explain that although saints can be on the earth, the church is not. But there can be no doubt that believing Jews are portrayed as members of the church (from Pentecost to the coming of the Lord) in such passages as Eph. 2:14; Rev. 2:8-11, and Rev. 3:7-13. The dispensationalist’s assertion that believing Israel is not to be confused with the church during the time portrayed in Revelation fails to consider that: (1) believing Jews and gentiles go through the tribulation (Rev. 7:4-8, 9-14); (2) the church, since the time of Pentecost, has been composed of Jews and gentiles; and (3) the book of Revelation is written “to the churches” (Rev. 22:16).

   Thus, being present on earth during the great tribulation does not contradict the fact that “God has not destined us for wrath.” When the true believers of the church are present during the time of the tribulation, and looking forward to the rapture, they will be comforted and encouraged when they read: “God has not destined us for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
   Philadelphia Kept From That Hour
   “Because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth” Rev. 3:10.
   Pretribulation reasoning:
   • The members of the church in Philadelphia are promised that they will be “kept from the hour of testing.”
   • Philadelphia, the church addressed, must represent the entire church prior to the time of the great tribulation.
   • The “hour of testing” is interpreted to mean the entire time of the great tribulation.
   • To be “kept from the hour of testing” is interpreted to mean that the church will be raptured from the earth.

   Incorrect conclusion: The church in Philadelphia is promised that it will be “kept from the hour,” which must mean “be raptured from the earth,” before the time of the great tribulation. The church in Philadelphia represents the whole true church of all believers just before the time of the tribulation. So the church will be raptured before the tribulation.
   Problems with this reasoning:
   In Revelation 2 and 3, seven contemporary churches are addressed. Five churches are warned to repent, while two churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna, are consoled and encouraged. To interpret the church of Philadelphia as representative of the entire church violates the context that presents it as one of seven churches. No passage of Scripture suggests that Philadelphia alone represents the entire church at the time preceding the great tribulation, while all the other six churches do not. Such an assertion is an arbitrary reading in the light of pretribulation hypothesis, not the results of exegesis.

   The “hour of testing” may be the time of the great tribulation, or it may be some segment before, during, or after the great tribulation. Whatever the meaning, the promise to be kept from it is only significant to the church in Philadelphia.

   To be “kept from the hour” could be interpreted various ways, including death before the onset of a particular time, or preservation and protection during such time. Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when praying for the church asks that they be “kept from the evil one,” but specifically notes that He is not praying that they be “taken from the world” (John 17:15). To insist that “kept” means “raptured” is an arbitrary reading in the light of a hypothesis, not the result of any Scripture passage that teaches “kept” equals “raptured.” It might be reasonable to suggest “kept” equals “raptured” if we had any passage of Scripture that presented the church being raptured (caught-up, removed, gathered) before the great tribulation, but no such passage exists. To conclude the meaning of this passage in the “light” of pretribulation hypothesis, and then use this passage as the basis of the pretribulation hypothesis, is a blatant example of circular reasoning.
   Plausible meaning of the passage:
   The first chapter of Revelation identifies all the churches as lampstands. In chapters 2 and 3, both Philadelphia and Smyrna stand without criticism before the Lord while the other five churches are warned to repent. Chapter 11 describes the ministry, death, resurrection, and rapture of two witnesses after identifying them as “the two lampstands that stand” (the churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna). These two churches are protected by God while they carry out a unique ministry for 3 1/2 years. After their ministry is finished, the beast makes war with them and kills them. After 3 1/2 days, they are resurrected and raptured into the presence of the Lord. The protection by the Lord for their witness during the forty-two months, and their subsequent rapture before the events of the bowls, is the probable realization of the Lord’s earlier promise to Philadelphia.
   Apostasy or Rapture: Taken out of the way
   “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way” (2 Thess. 2:7).
   Pretribulation reasoning:
   • “He who now restrains” is a reference to the Holy Spirit, the church or the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.
   • The phrase “taken out of the way” equals the events of the rapture.
   • The man of lawlessness appears (and consequently the tribulation begins) only after “he who now restrains” is “taken out of the way.”

   Incorrect conclusion: He who now restrains (the Holy Spirit in the church) is taken out of the way (that is, taken out of the world), thus the church is taken out of the world before the tribulation begins.
   Problems with this reasoning:
   There is no general agreement among commentators regarding the meaning or even proper translation of the text rendered as “he who now restrains.” It might better be translated, “he who now holds fast.” In either case, the pretribulation hypothesis is improperly assumed so that “taken out of the way” equals “raptured out of the world.”

   The phrase “taken out of the way” is literally “comes to be out of the midst.” It is an explanation of the results of the apostasy that precedes the revelation of the man of sin introduced at the beginning of the passage.

   The general context and language of 2 Thess. 2 does not support, and in fact contradicts, the pretribulation hypothesis.

   The apostle Paul introduces this discussion with the fact that the apostasy would precede the appearance of the man of lawlessness and, consequently, the day of the Lord. The apostle does not introduce the passage with notification to the Thessalonians that they would be raptured before the appearance of the man of sin. On the contrary, the apostle argues that:

   • Apostasy, a falling away from the faith, would happen first.
   • The man of lawlessness would appear.
   • The man of lawlessness and day of the Lord had not yet appeared.
   • The apostasy had not occurred.
   • The Thessalonians were holding fast the faith (the opposite of apostasy).

   Whatever the meaning of 2 Thess. 2, it is necessary to notice that rapture (our “gathering together to Him” is discussed as an event that follows apostasy and the revelation of the man of lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:3).

   If Paul wanted to convince this church that the day of the Lord had not yet occurred and thus support the idea of a pretribulation raputure, he could have simply said, “The rapture happens first, and you Thessalonians HAVE NOT BEEN RAPTURED!” But he did not.
   Errors from Implication and Silence
   The Time of Jacob’s Trouble
   The pretribulation hypothesis points to the fact that the great tribulation is the time of “Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7). Some infer from this that the church is not the focus of the tribulation and would not be expected to be on the earth during this time. However, even a casual reading of Jeremiah 30 reveals that the nations of the world are all drawn into the events described there, not just Jacob.

   In addition, the fact that this period of time is called “Jacob’s trouble” does not invite us to conclude that “Jacob” is not the church, or a name equivalent to the church in end-times. Indeed, in the first century of the church’s existence, “Jacob” was the predominant member of the church. The pretribulation argument that “Jacob’s trouble” is not the church’s trouble would have been nonsensical to John (himself a Jew) and to the early recipients of the book of Revelation.

   And why would the fact that it is the time of Jacob’s trouble necessarily exclude anyone else of any description? This reasoning is again the product of dispensationalism, which insists that believing Jews are not members of the church in the end-times.
   The Term “Church” Not in Revelation 4-21
   Some have claimed that because the term “church” does not occur in Revelation chapters 4 through 21, the church is not involved in the events portrayed, and therefore must have been raptured before these events. However, seven churches are addresses in chapters 2 and 3, and they are not portrayed as having been raptured anywhere in those passages. In fact, they are warned of the consequences of Jesus’ coming. So we would logically expect to find them where we last saw them, in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. One pretribulation author, attempting to overcome this difficulty, suggested that John is a symbol of the church, and portrays the rapture of the church when he is instructed to “come up here” (4:1). But this method would leave the gate wide open for us to interpret almost any symbol as the church in chapters 4-21.

   This argument from silence is self-destructive to the pretribulation hypothesis since the word for rapture, or any description of it, does not occur with reference to the specific term “church” anywhere in Revelation. Should not pretribulationists wonder why a book written to the churches about the revelation of Jesus Christ has no mention of the rapture of the “church” on any page?

   The Church Raptured
   This approach neglects to recognize that the language of Revelation largely employs symbols, some of which represent the church. The churches are immediately portrayed in chapters 1-3 as golden lampstands. If we find the term “lampstand,” or any other term synonymous with church in chapters 4-21, then the argument from silence fails by definition. But, even if no term for the church is found in these chapters, an argument from silence proves only what it says, which is nothing.

   However, four terms for church are used in Revelation 4-21. “Lampstand,” “temple” and “city” are used in chapter 11, and in chapter 21 we find “bride.” John is instructed to “rise and measure the temple of God” (11:1), a term that stands for the whole church of Jews and gentiles (1 Cor. 3:16; Eph. 2:21). Then the chapter describes the ministry of two witnesses during the time of the great tribulation, and identifies these two witnesses as “the two lampstands that stand before the Lord.” Because we were introduced in chapters 1-3 to seven lampstands (the whole church), and noticed that two of these lampstands stood without accusation before the Lord, the two lampstands of chapter 11 are obviously these churches. These two churches were distinguished from the other five in the scene where John is instructed to measure those who worship at the altar, believing Jews, from the outer court, believing gentiles. Paul uses language picturing the church as a virgin betrothed to Christ, in his second letter to the church of Corinth (2 Cor. 11:2), while the author of Hebrews describes the church as “the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem…church of the first born” (Heb. 12:22-23). The pretribulationists’ insistence that the temple of Revelation 11 is a literal building directly contradicts Jesus’ own statement that the temple would not be standing in the end-times (Matt. 24:2).

   As mentioned above, saints are portrayed on earth throughout the chapters that describe the events of the great tribulation. How is it possible to be a post-Pentecost saint and not be a member of the church, unless one imports a hyper-dispensationalist hypothesis that “explains” how tribulation saints are not in the church?

   Revelation 22:16 specifically says that the testimony of the book of Revelation is “for the churches.”
   The Term “Rapture” Not In Matthew 24:31
   It is argued that because the term for “rapture” is not used in Matt. 24:31, the rapture is not being discussed. But using this reasoning no passage except 1 Thess. 4:17 would qualify as a “rapture” passage. Furthermore, neither 2 Thess. 2:1, (”our gathering together to Him” nor Rev. 11:12 (“Come up here”) would qualify as a rapture passage.
   Statements to Israel or the Church?
   It is also argued that the Lord’s statements in Matthew 24 to His inner circle of disciples are to be interpreted as a sermon directed to Israel, not instructions to the founding leaders of the Christian church. But the term “Israel” is not used to describe His disciples in Matthew 24. It is further asserted that Jesus, when addressing the very same disciples a short time later in the upper room, addressed them as the foundational Christians of the church, and that He spoke to them about a pretribulation rapture of the church. But the terms church and rapture are not used at all in the upper room discourse, and the disciples are told to have courage because of coming tribulation (John 16:33).

   However, the gathering of saints from the sky (an accurate description of rapture, cf. 1 Thess. 4:15 ff.) is described in detail in Matt. 24:31, specifically occurring “after the tribulation of those days” Matt. 24:29.
   Argument from Imminence: Coming like a thief
   Pretribulationism improperly insists that the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ be stated thus:

   Christ can and should be expected to return and rapture the church at any moment. No prophetic events will intervene between now and the rapture of the church.

   To support this definition of imminence, John 14:3 and 1 Thess. 4-5 are cited. But a single reading of these passages reveals that the coming of the Lord is not discussed as an event to be expected at any moment. Even when Paul writes that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night (1 Thess. 5:2), he emphasizes that such is the case only for unbelievers. He clearly states that the day will not overtake the Thessalonians like a thief (1 Thess. 5:4).

   1 Thess 4-5 teaches the imminence of “the day of the Lord” (I Thess. 5:2). The day of the Lord is a time frame with events that precede, attend, and follow the coming of Jesus. This is proved in Revelation 1:10. Thus, to say, “Jesus can arrive at any minute and rapture the church” is different than saying that the events that signal His coming could begin at any minute.

   The pretribulationist does not adhere to imminent return as he has defined it. His literature contains comments that suggest the coming of the Lord is now closer than ever before as certain current events have unfolded as fulfillment of prophecy. How often has it been suggested that the Lord is nearer because of the re-gathering of Israel as a nation in 1948? This is specifically mentioned as a fulfillment of prophecy from Ezekiel 37:12. Could the Lord have returned before 1948? Is imminence (as defined above by dispensationalism) true only since 1948? Or what about the proposed rebuilding of the temple that has so often been rumored by pretribulation Christian television hosts?

   Because these Scriptures do not teach the imminent return as defined by pretribulationism, one author reasons in the following manner:

   If the teaching of Christ had been to the intent that His coming for them was after the Great Tribulation, it is difficult to see how this message (John 14) would have been a source of solace to their troubled hearts.

   If our source of joy or sorrow is related to our personal circumstances of suffering or the lack of it in this life, then I understand Walvoord’s statement. But if the source of the disciples’ (and our) joy lies in being with the Lord, from whom we are now parted, then Walvoord’s statement is puzzling. Jesus’ words in John 14 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 are a limitless source of comfort in that we know that in spite of death or tribulation, Jesus has overcome the world and is coming again for us. To postulate, as Walvoord does, that Jesus was comforting His disciples by assuring them of no tribulation or involvement in the great tribulation virtually contradicts everything Christ had told them up to that point.

   If it is true that even one prophetic event remains to be fulfilled before the coming of Christ, then imminence as defined by the pretribulation hypothesis, is discredited. (The reader is urged to review the things that will precede “our gathering together to Him” in 2 Thess. 2:1-7.)
   Argument from reputation or popularity
   The arguments in favor of pretribulationism that carry the most weight are generally unspoken: (1) “If [some important teacher] believes and teaches the pretribulation rapture of the church, then it must be true.” How could a person of such reputation be wrong? (2) There are so many people that believe it, it must be true.

   These arguments are perhaps the most difficult of all to defeat. Whatever a Christian teacher of good reputation teaches is likely to be believed by a great number of others who trust that teacher. Here, the lessons of history should caution us. Loyalty to a reputable teacher or pastor is important, but we are never relieved of the responsibility to search the Scriptures. Loyalty and respect do not suggest or imply the sort of mindless obedience that has been at the foundation of large cults surrounding notorious charismatic personalities.

   There is no question that pretribulationism is popular today. The best selling fictional Left Behind series proved its popularity. But not one apostle or church father ever taught pretribulationism. There is no record that pretribulationism was ever taught before the early 1800s.

   The Danger of Pretribulationism
   The danger of pretribulationism lies in the potential for disillusionment and disbelief when end-time events unfold in the way actually described in the Bible. Will those caught in the events of the tribulation lose their faith when pretribulationism is not borne out? Having heard their leaders describe pretribulationism with the same fervor as they describe the resurrection; will they abandon a belief in the resurrection when it becomes obvious pretribulation rapture in not true?

   I believe that the student of prophecy should note that some significant warnings are found in the Bible concerning what we believe about the end-times: Matt. 24:4; Rev. 22:18-19, 2 Thess. 2:3.

   Comment by Stephen Amy | December 31, 2007

8. I am still on the fence concerning pre or post tribulation, even after reading the above. One part of Scripture that stands out to me concerns Enoch and Noah, and the flood judgment. Both of them were alive at the same time before the flood. Enoch was raptured, and Noah had to go through the judgment on the earth.

   Note that when God says something twice on a subject, it bears looking at seriously. God said twice that Enoch walked with God, and He took him. But about Noah, He only said once that he walked with God, and he had to go through the flood judgment. Could this be an example of who goes up in the rapture, and who stays behind?

   I am closely watching the churches of today, and considering just what the apostasy might be. I see the churches falling away to a new gospel of prosperity, even now. And that there is but a remnant speaking out the truth.

   Further, perhaps we have not paid enough attention to some OT information, where God had to hide the body of Moses from satan. More information on this subject is in Jude. Why would satan have wanted that body, if he did not have the power to put it on himself to mislead the Israelites?

   Likewise, is this a preview of when satan takes over a body of someone of today, in order to mislead people? This person would already have been noted for miracles so people would take notice when he arose from the dead. Perhaps we are seeing that person revealed even now, but at the same time, not yet comprehending it. We might do well to consider even a charismatic world known Christian in this. He would also have to have been born of a Jewish mother in a certain place, if I read it right. I’ll not get into further speculation here.

   Also, many have prophesied judgment on the USA, seeing it in ruins and smoking, likely from being in a nuclear attack. We know Russia has yet to move down to attack Israel, and that the young lions of Tarshish will confront Russia. Perhaps our response will be more than some think, where we ask Russia if they are after a spoil. After all, why would that question even be mentioned there, if it did not have serious meaning? And who else has the power to destroy Russia than the USA?

   It would fit a lot of Bible prophesy if the rapture occurred while missiles are in the air between Russia and the USA. Israel would be miraculously saved, but would no longer have a friend left as their protector, setting them up for dependence on the antichrist.

   Like I said, I am on the fence, but I am looking at some verses in the Bible that are perhaps sometimes overlooked as possibly having meaning re; the rapture.

   Comment by David L. Williams | February 1, 2008

9. David L. Williams: you make some interesting points about Enoch but I do not think his thing or even Elijah’s being taken up in a chariot/whirlwind, or even Christ’s ascension into heaven can fully be compared to what is commonly known as the rapture which is actually the saint’s caught up in the air at Christ’s second coming. Christ does not return again (for the millenium reign) until after the tribulation etc and Christ only returns once when every eye will see him and he comes in the same way he went up to heaven setting his feet down on the Mount of Olives (pp Acts 1).

   The saints must go through the great tribulation as they already have done so for many centuries anyway - the apostle John knew this which is why he writes what he did which was just as applicable in his day as ours. There are a sucession of Roman antichrists and tribulations and cycles of judgement not just one single one. To that extent I am a futurist but also not one. I am a preterist thinking it is applicable to the first century (and later), futurist for some time in the future yet to be played out, and also currentist if such a term exists re the book of Revelation. There is not just one three and a half year tribulation, it has been going on for centuries. Anyway, how would the (ultimate) antichrist be able to make war against the saints and then defeat them if they are all raptured away from harm? Ones who will be persecuted will be the faithful non apostates - the martyrs who cry out have crowns - they do not suffer and stay behind as they are lesser Christians. Didn’t Christ also say do not let anyone decieve you, he would not return until certain things happened such as the revelation of the lawless one, the antichrist.

   Comment by endtimespropheticwords | February 1, 2008

10. A very interesting article which says the end is very very near(2017/1 and there is no pre tribulation rapture.

    http://apostasywatch.com/teaching5/specialreport.html

    Comment by Golda | February 1, 2008

11. Thank you, Golda, for sending me to that site. VERY interesting! Nevertheless, I’m still on the fence.

    Miriam, I mentioned in my post that PERHAPS the anti-christ MAY already be being revealed, but so far many do not see it. I won’t mention the name of the one I see who has the necessary qualifications, who is among us already. I don’t want to go that far in my speculations, yet.

    I have not focused on this subject for a decade, being busy with another appointment. I am sure ready tho, if more detail comes forth. It is fine with me if I have to go thru the tribulation, in any case. God’s will be done!

    Comment by David L. Williams | February 1, 2008

12. Choose one: Either dummies who didn’t believe in the rapture will be left behind watching believers fly in the air to meet Jesus’ 180 degree u-turn back to heaven, or dummies who did believe in the rapture will be left behind those who overcame sin by submitting to Christ’s scourging program of spiritual fire and excruciating circumstances. The spiritually more mature are thus taken to even greater indwelling. Eagles, mature saints of heaven or earth, pick fleshly spirits and errant doxy. The dummy rapture believers, who by definition are spiritually immature and fear filled, are left behind until more growth in God might be possible for them later. And behold, God comes quickly in the spiritually prepared, the taken. Which left behind is true?

    Comment by Robert Winkler Burke | February 2, 2008

13. Interesting comments Robert Winkler. You have introduced the idea (which isn’t new) of a spiritual partial rapture. I read scripture and see Jesus says:
    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Seems Jesus is coming at the end of the tribulation to gather His elect, i.e., the church.

    Just my two penny-farthings.

    Bill

    Comment by flacap388 | February 26, 2008

14. i’m really sorry to see so many making so many errors … false prophets all ..

    as to the time of the end no man knows, not even I, only the Father ….

    you folks have put yourselves in a trap of your own making and now have to be called False Prophets.. sad

    to many of you want to be known as prophets and such, this to suggest some gifted authority or power… this is not what you are called to be .. but meek and humble.

    quit trying to be the big man on campus and get back to living for Him else you be known only as liars and false prophets

    Comment by gil | March 7, 2008

15. Will there be a Rapture followed by an earthly reign of Jesus?

    Followers of this doctrine believe that there will be an earthly millennial reign of Jesus on earth following an event where Jesus Christ will “snatch away” his saints to heaven. This event is called the “Rapture”. Following this event, Jesus will supposedly reign on Earth for a thousand years. The doctrine of millennialism and the rapture contradict some very compelling Biblical scripture.

    First, if the Rapture is true, there will have to be more than one resurrection in the future separated by a significant time period. The Bible clearly states that the resurrection of the just and the unjust will happen in the same hour.

    John 5:28-29
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    KJV

    If “all that are in the graves” are resurrected to their final reward in the same hour then there can be no time span of centuries between resurrections.

    Second, if the Rapture is true, Jesus Christ will have to return to earth more than once. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is coming back to earth once and when He does, the earth will be removed.

    Hebrews 12:26-27
    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    KJV

    Thirdly, if the Rapture is true, Jesus will return to earth, establish an earthly kingdom and rule it from Jerusalem. If Jesus were to rule from Jerusalem, He would violate a vow given by God to Coniah or Jeconiah, King of Judah.

    Jeremiah 22:30
    30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
    KJV

    The key words in this passage are “in Judah” No descendant of Jeconiah will ever sit on the throne of David and rule from Jerusalem which was in Judah. Jesus was a descendant of Jeconiah from both the lineage of Joseph and Mary. The lineages of Joseph and Mary crossed paths through Zorobabel, who was the great grandson of Jeconiah. Matthew traced the lineage of Jesus through Joseph.

    Matthew 1:11-13
    11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
    12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
    13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
    KJV

    Luke traced the lineage of Jesus through His mother Mary and the lineage crossed paths with Joseph’s.

    Luke 3:27
    Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel , which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

    Jesus was therefore descended from Jeconiah through both the lineage of His mother and His earthly father. God left absolutely no doubt in anybody’s mind on this, nothing was left to speculation. Jesus was the descendant of Jeconiah 22 generations through Mary and 14 generations through Joseph.

    God emphatically stated that “no man of his [Jeconiah's] seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah”

    We know that Jesus reigns from Heaven setting on the right hand side of God, (1 Peter 3:22). This is not in Judah. God said never again “in Judah”, which eliminates the possibility of Jesus ruling an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem.

    In the next chapter of Jeremiah, the inspired writer prophecies the coming of Jesus and proclaims that a king will descend from David and will reign and will execute judgment and justice in the earth and he will be called Our Lord our righteousness, (Jeremiah 23:5-6) But Jesus can never rule from within Judah without violating the Word of God, written by the inspired writer, Jeremiah, only 6 verses earlier. Both Joseph and Mary were related to David too. Mary was a descendant of David through Nathan, (Luke 3:31). Joseph was a descendant of David through Solomon, (Matthew 1:6).

    Many people who teach millennialism believe that Jesus tried to set up an earthly Kingdom at the time of His life on earth but was rejected by the Jews and crucified. The truth is that one time the Jews tried to force Jesus to be an earthly king and He refused to.

    John 6:14-15
    (14) Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
    (15) When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king , he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

    Those who saw Jesus feed 5000 wanted to take Him by force and make him a king. If Jesus had come to set up an earthly reign, certainly this would have been possible at that time. Yet the Bible says Jesus departed from them and went into a mountain alone.

    In summary.

    The rapture and the millennial reign of Christ cannot be true if it is not 100 percent Biblically supported and it is not. This is by no means an exhaustive look at what scripture teaches about the kingdom of God. But it is enough when God says it won’t happen in Jerusalem, that honest Biblical students will seek further for the truth.

    http://www.granbychurchofchrist.org/FAQS/Rapture.htm

    Comment by David Hersey | April 12, 2008

16. There are two events discussed in scriptures that many confuse as being one event. When evaluated separately, one can see that there are two events. But, if evaluated as the same, one comes to a different conclusion.

    The Rapture

    The Lord meets the living saints in the air to deliver them from the world.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 “with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him”

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout…and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then, we who are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air”

    This points to where Jesus does not come and set foot on the Earth (his 2nd coming), but will meet us in the air. Only those that died in Christ are raised, so it is not a mass resurrection.

    Day of the Lord

    When Jesus comes back, He will come back to judge the earth in fulfillment to promises made to Him.

    When He makes His 2nd coming, He will step foot on the earth.

    Acts 1: 9,11 - And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on,…This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.

    Two are in the Field, one will be left behind

    The scriptures in Matthew and Luke (Matt 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-37) where it tells of two being in the field and one will be left behind is what happens after Jesus steps foot on the earth and not a rapture scripture. The one that is gathered will be gathered to be spared judgment. This is post tribulation - post mark of the beast. Those that took the mark of the beast will be gathered for judgment. Those that do not, will be spared.

    Jesus rules the planet with a rod of iron.

    After Jesus returns, He is allowed to rule in fulfillment of prophecy Rev 20:4-7 “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned WITH Christ for a thousand years….Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

    Is 24:23 Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And {His} glory will be before His elders.

    IS 32: 1 Behold, a king will reign righteously And princes will rule justly.

    Comment by Robert W | May 1, 2008

17. David Hersey said this:

    “Matthew 1:11-13
    11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
    12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
    13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
    KJV

    Luke traced the lineage of Jesus through His mother Mary and the lineage crossed paths with Joseph’s.

    Luke 3:27
    Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel , which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, ”

    So David is saying that Abiud = Rhesa
    and Jechonias = Neri

    Well then, that’s crystal clear … NOT!

    David’s theological argument is based on a foundation of sand. Zorobabel could obviously have more than one son. But Salathiel simply can’t have more than one biological father!

    Are the names Zorobabel and Salathiel so rare during those days or were they as common as Robert and Edward?

    If that is all David Hersey has to say then he can go back to school.

    Comment by Bull | July 17, 2008

18. speaking of rapture I came accross this passage from “footsteps of the Messiah” By Arnold G Fruchtenbaum,
    He says: “First no biblical passage which discusses the Tribulation is the church mentioned.The fact that saints are found in the tribulation does not prove that the church is there anymore than the existence of saints in the old testament proves that the church was there.” further on he says “not even once are they called the church”
    …”the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the tribulation, the church is found in chapters one to three dealing with the events prior to the tribulation”

    “later the church is found is found in chapters 19-22 dealing the events after the tribulation.”

    “But in chapters 6-18 the church is not mentioned once”

    “the rapture preceeds the tribulation, but it does not begin the tribulation. It is not the rapture but the seven year covenent that begins the rapture”.

    He also says,” The Rapture does not come before the tribulation,since the Tribulation begins with the signing of the seven year covenant,the very latest point at which the Rapture will occur is would be at the time of the signing of the seven year covenant.the Rapture will not occur beyound that point”.

    Comment by helen | July 21, 2008

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