Patricia King, Extreme Prophetic, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner & Kansas City Prophets

This is a debate from another blog with someone called ‘Rahab’ who backs Patrica King of Extreme Prophetic ministries of Maricopa County, Arizona.  Patrica King has recently come under fire and been criticised from some quarters of the church, and Rahab could not see a good reason for her critics to do this. I believe I demonstrated there were several very  good scriptural reasons. (I have edited a few typos in my responses). Note, I do not actually know what the other critics are saying about Patrica King. I only know what I have seen and discerned by visiting Extreme Prophetic’s own website.

Rahab: Someone once said that if you have a right heart and wrong doctrine, God will fix your doctrine, but if you have right doctrine and a wrong heart, He can’t do anything for you. Patricia and her team are actively pursing the heart of Jesus and I don’t think you can have more of a right heart than that. I’m not worried about their doctrine. They love the Lord enough that if He has a problem with anything they are doing, they will change it. And He is quite capable of making His displeasure known. 

Me: I  am not going to go into detail about Patricia King or any of her and the ‘prophetic’ movement’s errors but I do have concern about your way of testing things and your attitude toward spiritual discernment.

‘Someone once said that if you have a right heart and wrong doctrine, God will fix your doctrine, but if you have right doctrine and a wrong heart, He can’t do anything for you.’   That is a really, really naive thing to say. It is only true if you seek God’s face on what you hear, and test and weigh it. I hear this comment a lot, as well as another good one is that ‘God will not allow us to be decieved.’ I know some really ‘good’ and ‘decieved’ people who are Roman Catholic, a couple of Jehovahs Witnesses, a very sincere white witch and lots of devout New Agers – some of whose lives on the surface bear more ‘fruit’ than many Christians.

God has given you a brain: use it and test and weigh what anyone says in detail against scripture. If it contradicts scripture then these people are not prophets of the Most High.

Test and weigh everything against scripture. All error needs to be opposed and it is vitally important in these days as what you may view as only minor heresy may ultimately lead to a great many falling away from the true Jesus Christ.

Rahab: Thanks for your comments, endtimes, but I think you missed my point. Show me where Patricia is in error in any of the essentials of the faith. If you look on her site, you can see the results of the three separate audits she has had conducted on her ministry. One was financial/physical, one was theological and one was prophetic. None of these came back with any findings. Patricia takes the charge of error very seriously.

As I said, it is very rare that the doctrine police are after someone because they don’t believe in the virgin birth. The controversy usually happens over a disputable doctrine.

The argument over predestination vs. free will is a perfect example. I can actually prove both sides from scripture, just as Calvin and Arminus could. Calvinists put people to death over it. This is not a doctrine that is essential to salvation.

That’s the whole point. Fight for the essentials, but walk in love in the rest. God is perfectly able to take care of His people and His church. He’s done it for thousands of years without our help.

Me: My major concern about Patricia King is her ready association with the New Apostolic Reformation and the ‘former’ Kansas City Prophets with their heretical and dangerous Latter Rain theology: eg. C Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, Kim Clement, Bob Jones and other Elijah List favourites.

Now whilst I cannot blame Patrica King for the ’sins’ and errors of these men, I cannot understand how somebody, if in a true prophetic ministry, not only condones these people but goes several steps further than that and is (apparently) mentored by them too when there is no doubt that God is calling His people to have nothing to do with them.

Why has Patricia, if she is a prophet, not then heard this call? Could it be her discernment is not working properly as she has been somehow, albeit innocently, been seduced by the false? I recognise that many true and genuine and loving Christians are in this movement still, blind to its errors, but if Patricia is blind she is being led into serious error and lead  many others along this same path with her. It does not matter how ‘lovingly’ she does this!

This continued association with the former Kansas City prophets and the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) raises a major red flag for me as C Peter Wagner et al are leading many into serious deception. Perhaps Patricia has not heard the call to test and weigh everything or she has forgotten it, so carried away she is by third heaven visions and experiences etc. If she is NOT blind then I do not wish to think what her true motives and agendas are.

I am also concerned about the spirit of some of her prophecies, which like many on the Elijah list, are whitewashing, crying ‘peace peace when there is no peace’, and are not truly calling the church to repent and to prepare itself.

Furthermore the ’soaking’ times she teaches are extremely gnostic and people could open themselves up to all sorts. Being in God’s presense is far more than a feeling or anointing, and to speak of spending a long time emptying one’s mind and ’soaking’ in God as compared to spending time with God, talking to him, glorifying and honouring Him, worshiping Him, loving Him, is a deceptive twist that can lead to gnostic deception where experiences are not weighed and tested and seducing spirits may lead astray.

Remember Satan comes as an angel of light, not with a pitchfork and devil costume! He looks and sounds like the real thing as he and/or his agents quote scripture: pp the beast that looks just like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.

I found this on the web at http://www.swiftfire.org/news/?id=64 - Sharnael Wolverton, founder of Swiftfire Ministries International met Bob Jones of White Dove Ministries who introduced her to a golden eagle named “Swift.” “Swift, is sent forth to those in order to carry the purposes of God swiftly.” Another encounter was with Patricia King of Extreme Prophetic, who had also been introduced to Swift.

This sounds very dodgy and New Age to me. Do you know anything about ‘Swift’?

BTW, many years ago I used to think that Paul Cain and the Kansas City Prophets aka Metro Vineyard were great. Cain was my ‘hero’ and I longed for his prophetic mantle. I never stopped to actually ask God about them, as leaders I loved and respected in the church and my missions organisaton said they were great and so I jumped on board without testing it properly for myself. It wasn’t until years later that I stopped to ask God about Paul Cain (this is before he openly fell into homosexuality) and God told me what he truly thought about Paul Cain and his associates. I was truly shocked but it opened my blind eyes to them. God also said that C Peter Wagner was antichrist and part of the end times deception. Before you scoff at me, check it out for yourself with God – just ask HIM. The more I see coming out of Wagner’s camp, the more it comfirms this.

Rahab: How many meetings have you been in with Rick Joyner and the KC Prophets?

I’ve been around these guys since 1989 and I have see consistent good fruit in my life as a result of their ministry. They are not perfect. They make mistakes. Some of them even fell into sin and repented.

You are basing your judgemnet of these men and this movement upon the totally subective criteria of “God told me.” The voice of the Lord that we hear is completely subjective and filtered through out own emotions, opinions and prejudices. I know this is true in the way I hear the Lord.

Either Ephesians 4:11 is true or Christianity is a lie. It’s that simple. Either Jesus did give apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to the body of Christ or not. Show me in scripture where any of these offices ceased to exist. Apostles did not die with the 12 because Paul was not one of the 12 and an apostle. Show me where God makes exceptions to His word.

I have had dealings with Swift. He’s kind of awesome. Swift is an angel who is currently attached to Patricia’s ministry. He is simply a ministering spirit who’s mission is to help them swiftly accomplish what God gives them to do.

Soaking is an awesome thing. Scripture clearly teaches that if you ask for bread, you are not going to be given stone. When you ask for the Holy Spirit, God doesn’t give you a demon. When soak in the presence of the Lord in order to be more open with Him, He doesn’t allow anything else but His Spirit to minister to you.

Maybe the reason that Patricia doesn’t hear all these things about these people is because she actually has relationship with them on a regular basis and is in a position to judge the real fruit of their lives, as opposed to those of us who do not move in those circles. I know that when the various Roundtables meet, they talk about the things that they disagree about and either resolve the issue or agree to disagree.

Me: >You are basing your judgment of these men and this movement upon the totally subective criteria of “God told me.”

No, not at all. I do not just say it because ‘God told me’. (I happen to believe Him though.) I test and weigh everything I hear against scripture, I also take it back to God and talk to Him about it. After that I research the facts from documented resources. There is enough testimony from these own men’s mouths and ministries to indicate what I speak is the truth.

>Either Ephesians 4:11 is true or Christianity is a lie. It’s that simple.

I believe in the prophetic office and the prophetic gifting, I never said I did not. If you go to my blog, you can see I am an advocate of prophecy. However, I also believe in false prophets and these are the ones who are making most of the noise at the moment.

>Swift is an angel who is currently attached to Patricia’s ministry.

Did he used to ‘belong’ to William Branham by any chance? Tell me more about your dealings with Swift?

>Scripture clearly teaches that if you ask for bread, you are not going to be given stone.

If simple faith protects us from being decieved, then why does the apostle Paul command us to test and weigh everything? Why would Satan even bother trying to twist scripture when attempting to seduce Jesus in the wilderness if we are immune to being decieved? The Corinthian church et al did not want false prophecy in their midst, but they warned to be aware of it, as was the rest of the early church warned about false prophets and false teachers ’some of whom are in your midst’. Of course there was Jezebel too and the gnostic Nicolatians. Now if the Holy Spirit was not going to allow us to be led astray if we have this simple faith you mention, why were many in the early church led astray who probably had just as much faith than you or I? Because they did not test and weigh stuff, that’s why. They did not scrutinize it. They accepted the super-apostles Paul speaks of, without proper discernment. The super-apostles had better speech than Paul and were more photogenic, no doubt, in their smart clothes. God’s guard against error is scripture, scripture and scripture and of course the gift of discernment and distinguishing of spirits, and his watchmen.

>or agree to disagree.

There are some things you cannot agree to disagree about. There are obvious major problems in the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) that cannot just be forgotten or ignored. There are serious things leading to end times delusions.

Did you ask God about Cain yet? And Wagner?

Rahab: I asked the Lord about Paul Cain years ago. Paul has paid more of a price for the Gospel than you will ever be able to imagine.

I knew what Paul Cain was up to 6 months or a year before it became public. At this point in time, I can’t remember the exact date the Lord showed me. I have prayed for this man for years and it broke my heart to hear that he had fallen into sin. I continued to pray for him because I know the Lord is gracious and compassionate.

I knew months before Jimmy Swaggart confessed publicly that he was unclean and involved in some type of sexual immorality. That broke my heart, too and I cried out to the Lord for him.

I take absolutely no joy in the fall of others. I take no joy in being a witch hunter anymore and flinging up the dirt that I find.

There is nothing that Paul Cain, Bob Jones, C. Peter Wagner or Patricia King teaches that violates the fundamentals of the faith. They all passionately believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect, sinless Son of God. That he was both God and man, born of a virgin, who died on a cross for the sins of man to bring reconciliation between God and man. They believe that He rose on the 3rd day for our justification, that he ascended to heaven and he will come again in like manner. They all confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Those are the fundamentals of the faith and every one of these people believe in that.

The rest of it is your doctrine vs. their doctrine. Your interpretation vs. their interpretation.

C. Peter Wagner is not an antichrist and is not part of the end times deception. You, however, have bought into it already. It has to with love or the lack of it. It has to do with the fact that Jesus died for these people. Are you willing to lay your life down for them. If you are not, if you do not love to that extent, then you are already walking in the spirit of antichrist.

When I heard about Paul Cain, I cried for days because it broke my heart. It broke my heart because it broke the heart of Jesus that one of his children would be caught up and bound by sin.

I no longer have an overwhelming need to be right in my doctrine because I realize that my doctrine changes as I grow in intimacy and knowledge of the Lord. I don’t look at scripture the same way now as I did 25 years ago when I came to the Lord. Then it was much more a cut and dried set of rules and there was only one way to interpret it – whatever way the group I was a part of did.

Then, it was any branch that didn’t bear fruit will be cut off meant that if you weren’t leading people to Jesus, you were going to hell. Now I understand that fruit has to do with producing the life and character of Jesus. It is his life that enables me to effectively bring people into the kingdom of God. Then I worked in fear. Now it is an outflow of who I am in Jesus Christ.

Paul had flawless theology as a Pharisee, yet he missed who Jesus was. The Lord had to whack him in the head for him to see it. He allowed his zeal to lead him into hatred and persecution of who and what God loved.

There are plenty of ministers and ministries I do not agree with. I don’t have a need to try to destroy them anymore or tell the world how wrong they are. When Paul brought correction, he was talking to churches that he had direct oversight of. Notice, he did not bring correction in Romans. They were not a church that he had oversight of.

It would be the height of presumption for me to attempt to bring correction to someone like Patricia King because I have neither relationship with nor oversight over her. If I had serious concerns, I need to take them to her. If I felt like she blew me off, then I would need to take someone else with me and try again. If that failed, then I would need to take it up with those who do have oversight of her. That is the scriptural method of dealing with offense.

Me: >I take absolutely no joy in the fall of others.

My comments about Paul Cain is nothing to do with the fact that he fell (again) into homosexuality and had repeatedly lied about it. That is just an aside for me. I take no delight in this or anyone else falling into sin and have never ever said I do. I recognise anyone can fall, however ‘godly’. I do not ‘judge’ him according to this, neither do I call him a false prophet because of his sin and deceit.

I have concerns about Paul Cain only because of the fruit that comes out of his lips – Latter Rain heresies (and other stuff) – and because of the dark spirit/s that is/are over and around him. That simple. I ‘judge’ him by what he says. I have tested and weighed him and found him to be heretical, and I can see the ‘frogs’ – the unclean spirits – come out of his mouth (pp Revelation).

Some years ago, when I enquired of God about Paul Cain, God gave me a vision of Paul Cain with a dark black umbrella over his head. ‘Dark’ in this vision represented ’satanic-inspired’. I understood the umbrella to represent ‘Latter Rain’ theology/the ‘Latter Rain’ movement and I found out more about it because I knew nothing about it at that time. Note you say that visions CAN come out of our own prejudices (which I beg to differ on if you operate in the true gift and test things) – well, even if that view were correct, at that time Cain was my prophetic ‘hero’ and I was expecting God to say ‘Cain is a great guy and from me’. He did not. He said that Cain was dangerous because of what was over Him, and leading many into error and showed me just how much Cain has infected others through John Wimber & the Vineyard, the K C Prophets, and C Peter Wagner etc. When I enquired of God about Wagner he showed me he was antichrist and I am very, very sure of that. Again, that is nothing to do with my prejudices – Wagner was a hero in the missions school I used to be in and I also used to be in the Vineyard – and again I was expecting to hear he and the Vineyard were great. God does not hold that view.

Looking at what C Peter Wagner is doing in the NAR with his elite, and examining – scrutinizing – his beliefs – convinces me that he is part of the end times deception, knowingly or unknowingly.

Your view of weighing up things are seriously lacking (and naive). You are not obeying God to test and weigh everything, and you likewise misunderstand about deception and heresy. It is not just what YOU call the fundamentals we are to test and weigh. We are to test and weigh everything – ALL prophecy and teaching and scruitinize it. The early church was warned about false prophets and false teaching that was not JUST to do with the factors you mention, and was told to have nothing to do with it and route it out when found. A little leaven goes through the whole batch and people can get started on a tangent that is originally just a few degrees off from true and end up many miles off from where they started and scriptural truth. Why do you think God was so hard on inter-marriage in the Old Testament and commanded them to completely destroy the idols? When Israel/Judah/the kings disobeyed God and did not completely destroy the idols or left a small percentage of heathens living in their land, they surely suffered from it at a later date. That is what scripture teaches us. Tolerate even a tiny bit of error and it will poison.

REMEMBER SATAN QUOTES SCRIPTURE – and well. Do you not understand how subtle deception can be? A good conman looks and sounds just like the real thing. ‘Signs and wonders to decieve even the elect…’ How can that be, do you expect to see the trident pitchfork before you throw something out to be false? Many in the church will accept the false because they do not know they can be decieved because they take this same naive view as you about discernment and perhaps feel they are wrong if they criticize or are shouted down and called rebellious and to ‘touch not my anointed’ if they do dare speak up. In fact they are actually rebelling against God for not testing and weighing or speaking up where there is false teaching.

A fundamental doctrine for the early church was on the return of Christ, the appearance of the antichrist and the post tribulation ‘rapture’. Latter Rain denies the Biblical and early church view of the return of Christ, and rather than teach tribulation they preach blessing and revival and a man-child elite. This is very, very far off the truth. Wagner also promotes elitism and new revelation which is put above the scriptures and his movement more than hints at persecuting those in the church who will not go along with them at a later date.

>that he ascended to heaven and he will come again in like manner.

I suggest you see what they say about Christ’s return. It is NOT the same as traditional Christian teaching so I beg to differ. They do not believe ‘in like manner’. Far from it. It is very very differant.

You may not think it matters on these points, but it matters very much. If you do not understand about the rapture and the second coming being post tribulation and all that is to come first before it, you could be led to believe THE antichrist is the true Christ and the deception/powerful delusion and church falling away is ‘worldwide revival’. Through the new prophets/apostles off teaching, you are being prepped for the one world church – embracing Roman Catholicism which is scripturally wrong (Rick Joyner is being very deceitful about this)- and being prepped to accept signs and wonders which you believe over and above scripture. You might not think that is the case, but it is the truth, and you are being conditioned not to question.

>It has to with love or the lack of it.

That is what you have been taught to say about people like me who cry out ‘you are being decieved!’. This is not true about me – how do you know how much I love or do not? – and is also not a scriptural view anyway. Scripture teaches us to warn, rebuke and admonish one another in love – that is to criticize if we see something and we are held accountable if we do not. It is not just (your version) of ‘pastors’ and ‘prophets’ who have this responisbility. We ARE all to, as we are all accountable to one another. Furthermore the watchmen have even more of a responsibility to warn, or blood will be on their hands (pp Ezekiel). Even in Levitical law, God shows his heart/plan when if we see our neighbour’s animal wonder off, we are to do something about it, even if is it not our own we have a responsibility. How much more do we have a responsibility when we see God’s sheep being led astray!

Your whole movement whitewashs. It does not find the cracks in the walls to repair them, thus the new church is being built on shaky foundations that will ultimately fall when the heat comes – which it surely will in the Last Days.

Tell me more about your dealings with Swift. How specifically were you introduced? Is he an eagle or an angel? Does one have to be specifically introduced to Him by Bob Jones or Patricia to meet him?

Rahab: >Tolerate even a tiny bit of error and it will poison.

This is exactly what I am talking about. According to who’s doctrine? Yours? You don’t even recognize a direct quote of scripture from Acts about the return of Jesus. Instead you attack me about my lack of understanding of the second coming.

There is not a movement or denomination in existence that I cannot find doctrinal error in if I look hard enough. I have formally studied theology and Greek. What I can’t crack in Greek and Hebrew, I have a pastor who can.

It comes down, once again, to relationship. I have more effect now that I quit being the doctrine police than I ever did then. The people I have relationship with, those whom the Lord has entrusted to my care, I can speak into their lives and help them find truth for themselves.

I would never presume to attempt to bring correction to someone who legitimately holds the office of Prophet or Apostle. Why? I do not hold either of those offices myself. Paul’s teaching was judged by the other apostles at Jerusalem. Paul taught the Corinthians that the other prophets were to judge the prophetic words given.

I have far more effect taking what I see wrong to my Father and letting Him deal with His wayward child. The Lord has set up authority structures within the body of Christ and I honor that.

I lead and teach those I am responsible for the truth as I know it. I talk to my peers about things they are doing and teaching that I question. Those outside of my sphere of influence that I have no relationship with, I pray for.

Paul told his people to basically avoid those people who teach contrary to what he taught them. He very rarely named names in his epistles. And he never went after them. He left their judgment up to the Lord.

Jesus was the same way. The apostles came to him and said these guys are preaching but they are not of us and asked if they should stop them. Jesus told them no.

As far as Swift goes, that was simply fun. There was a piece of equipment that needed to be delivered to the team before this conference started. I offered to take it and the office team prayed over me because I only been there a short period of time and where I was going was the other side of Phoenix through rush hour traffic. I was on a very tight schedule. They prayed for my safety, that I wouldn’t get lost and that the Lord would send Swift with me to help me to get there swiftly.

I took off in early rush hour traffic in Phoenix. The traffic basically got out of my way. I was never slowed down. I was able to drive 70 mph all the way through Phoenix at 5pm and was never delayed. Anyone who knows Phoenix knows this does not happen.

I don’t do angels. I can’t see them, I just know when they are there. Had my daughter been with me, she would have probably had a lively conversation with him. She does see them and has no hesitancy in engaging them in conversation when she does.

The one I want to meet is Breakthrough Revival. I want him to come hang out with me for a while.

Me: >According to who’s doctrine? Yours?

There are some things scripturally that are very plain and cannot be denied. There is obviously some room to move on certain points of doctrine, but there are also some teachings that can definitely be called ‘wrong’ or ‘heresy’ or ‘apostate’ or ‘destructive’ or ‘dangerous’ or even ‘antichrist’ because they go far beyond what can reasonably be interpreted in anybody’s translation of the Bible. You do not need a theology degree or to know Biblical Greek or Hebrew to figure these things out if you obey the Lord and test and weigh EVERYthing. The truth is in plain view for those who seek it with open hearts and minds. The Latter Rain’s teachings on Joel’s Army, Manifest Sons and man-child are such errant doctrines.

>You don’t even recognize a direct quote of scripture from Acts about the return of Jesus.

I am not sure what you mean by not recognizing it. Be specific as to what you mean?

BTW, I never attacked your views on the second coming. I do not know YOURS. I pointed out the Latter Rain movement’s (and many of these men’s) beliefs. You said they did not contradict fundamentals of the faith. They do. That’s a big deal.

I am not attacking you. Lose the persecution complex. I am trying to help you (and others) see clearly where there are faults with the NAR. I am saying where scripturally many things are wrong.

>There is not a movement or denomination in existence that I cannot find doctrinal error

Agreed. There is no perfect church. However where error exists it does need to be corrected. Where false prophets are repeatedly given the platform with no proper accountability it needs to be warned about. The false needs to be called false in order to let the truth thrive.

>I would never presume to attempt to bring correction to someone who legitimately holds the office of Prophet or Apostle.

You are on dangerous ground. So the only ones who can ‘judge’ C Peter Wagner and his band of elite are his own gnostic ’round table’? That is not scriptural and you are then no better than the Roman Catholics who make the pope infallible when he speaks ex-cathedra. Who can then speak up about them? Can they then preach all sorts and no-one can speak up as only one of their prophets and apostles may criticise them? If only prophets may judge them…now I am a prophet and I ‘judge’ them and I find them lacking. But I suppose you may counter with I am not a ‘legitimate’ prophet because I refuse to have anything to do with such men and their movement and have not been ‘knighted’ to the round table by either Joyner or Wagner? HOGWASH! I say hogwash! Wake up girl!

We are ALL called to encourage, admonish, correct and discipline each other. (Rom 15:14, Col. 3:16, 1 Thess. 5:14, Gal. 6:1) Not just the leaders or prophets or apostles. There is also a differance between ‘pastorally’ correcting someone (in your book) and disciplining and speaking up about false doctrine.

The Apostle Paul commended the Bereans – the normal ‘pew fodder’ – for testing all he said and spoke on. They were not prophets and apostles yet they ‘judged’ him by what he said. And he blessed them and said ‘carry on, what a great thing to do, this is NOBLE of you.’ Not ‘doubting’, not ‘unbelieving’, not ‘unloving’, not ‘critical’, not ‘audacious’, not ‘presumptive’, not ‘rebellious’, not ‘divisive’, not ’sinful’, but noble. If normal ‘pew fodder’ cannot ‘judge’ Rick Joyner et al for what they say and do, then does that mean Rick Joyner and his round table elite are better than the Apostle Paul?

>Paul told his people to basically avoid those people who teach contrary to what he taught them

This is why I find it surprising that Patricia King associates herself with the men I mentioned, because they do teach contrary to what Paul taught. Why do you continue to associate with them?

>The angel I want to meet is Breakthrough Revival.

There is an angel of this name? Really?

BTW, isn’t 70 mph over the legal speed limit?

Rahab: Have you addressed these individual concerns to each of the minsters and ministries involved? Until you have communicated with them, you really have no biblical right to air them before the body of Christ. It is not until you have gone to your brother and been rejected, and taken another believer with you and been rejected, that you have the right to bring your concerns before the church.

So my question is, have you followed biblical guidelines in addressing these issues? Have you contacted C. Peter Wagner and told him, “God told me you are antichrist and part of the end times deception?” What was his response?

Me: I believe you are referring to the time an individual sins against you personally when you talk to them one-on-one about it, then bring a friend etc if they do not listen, and then the church as a body deals with them. The situation about false teachers and prophets or prophetic movements works differantly and one can openly criticise and warn the church as a body without confronting the false teacher/false prophet in the manner you mention.

No, I have not contacted C Peter Wagner or Paul Cain. I have not confronted head-on the Pope, Joseph Smith, Judge Rutherford or David Icke either but I still stand against them and will speak up about them, as of course I should.

I note you did not answer my latest points. A lot of these are addressed to YOU and not to Patricia King, Wagner et al. And what is the legal speed limit on the roads you drove at 70mph?

Rahab: And I am telling you that you cannot justify doing that according to scripture. You are attempting to step into the authority that God granted my pastor. You have no authority from God to bring correction to people you do not have oversight of nor relationship with.

If you want to lay out the scriptural reasons for your disagreement with these things, that is a fine thing to do and I believe you have done so on your blog. To attempt to “bring correction” to the body of Christ or to individuals that you do not have oversight of is the grossest form of presumption. The only ones that I can see who have the right to do that in scripture are those who walk in a true apostolic office.

When you walk in that presumption, you lose the protection of the Lord and open yourself for a different form of deception, the deception of self-righteousness.

By the way, I have contacted some of these people with specific issues that I have. The issues and the resolution are private and not something that I would ever bring before the body. You are offended at them, therefore you are responsible to follow scriptural guidelines to resolve that.

Me: I am not attempting to being personal correction to either Paul Cain or C Petger Wagner or Rick Joyner (although I do not acknowledge it is only a ‘true apostle’ by your definition who can do so.) However, if God ever tells me to go speak to them one on one, for whatever reason, I will. ‘Who me?’ said Moses, David and Gideon and many others, and God said, ‘Go for I am with you.’ I do not think I am anything. I seek to obey God though and am learning not to ask ‘who me?’ when he calls and to obey and go and speak. YOU are in danger of self rightousness when you claim you have to be ’someone’ – in some role or recognised by some man or men – to bring God’s word or speak up about false prophets, false teachers or unrighteousness. God can use Balaam’s ass if He so wills. I am warning the body about them and their errant teachings which is a HUGE differance to personally disciplining them.

Are you saying I need to call up the Vatican to make an audience with the Pope to discuss his latest rubbish before I speak against it? Or go and speak with the LDS elders? Or the Watchtower organisation to speak against them? Nonsense!

>You are attempting to step into the authority that God granted my pastor.
>is the grossest form of presumption.

Not true biblically. Did you look the scriptures I gave you up?

>the deception of self-righteousness

Because I speak up? Come, come now! I claim nothing for myself.

The major problem with the NAR is its elitism and you have obviously been infected by this to the core. Satan has got you just where he wants you. What a shame. You are deafening your ears totally to the warnings – what are you so afraid of if you do test and weigh things? That you will find out that you have been ‘had’? Is your faith that weak that you need those sparklers or gold dust to be real and not a counterfeit or it all falls apart for you? Do you think yourself immune to deception?

I am not being self-righteous for speaking up about error. I am doing the biblical thing.

Now I have specifically spoken up about why I think Patricia King et al are erroneous, yet apart from you saying I should not speak up about it, and should take it to them directly instead, you have not answered my criticism.

Do you or do you not still contend that they believe the same fundamentals as ‘orthodox’ Christianity? What is your response re a differant second coming and rapture theology? The Latter Rain’s teachings on Joel’s Army, Manifest Sons and man-child are ok are they theologically?

Is it ok for Bob Jones and Kim Clement to be recorded as being wrong numerously but to be still called ‘true prophets’. Is it ok for Rick Joyner’s teaching to promote elitism and gnosticism?

Now I have a concern about YOU claiming an angel (possibly) helped you break the law by going 70mph through Phoenix, hence me asking you several times what the speed limit was in the areas you went through.

I have a concern about YOU not heeding the Berean Call, and making excuses why you should not do so, and should not speak up about it when found to be incorrect. I have a concern about YOU claiming that the fundamentals of the faith are the same from these teachers when they are clearly not – eg on the end times. I have a concern about you tolerating false prophets. I have a concern about you leading others astray because you have not been wise.

I pray that God opens your eyes, but I am not sure that you want to know the truth as the truth hurts.

Rahab: I had a chat with my pastor today about your position that you have a right to air you discernment about ministries without taking it to them first. He just laughed at your arguments. The biblical pattern holds. Until you have taken it up with your brothers, you do not have the biblical right to air your criticism of them in public.

In the ministry I am a part of seeks to create a culture of honor. What you are doing is totally without honor.

On of the things Patricia said in her video is that this group who is circulating this letter about her never brought their complaints to her first. She likewise considers those airing their grievances on the internet bound by the biblical principles.

Me: (note this response was completely deleted and she blocked me from posting to the site and she called me ’sinful’).

So your pastor is ‘as God’ to you, Rahab? Because he ’says so’, and because he ‘laughs’ that is OK is it? You do not have a right to either think for yourself or search scriptures for yourself to find out, if horror of horrors, I am actually speaking the TRUTH about these men and ministries?

And your grounds for this is ‘because your pastor says so’ and quoting a scripture about personal grievances out of context to apply to all watchmen type ministries! Oh yeah, and then you call me first of all unbelieving of the prophetic (not true), then ‘unloving’, and then ‘unscriptural’, ‘presumptious’, ’self-righteous’, and finally ‘without honour’. No doubt you will soon claim I have a spirit of witchcraft (as Patricia King claims against her critics), or perhaps your pastor will suggest this.

I have actually done the loving and honourable thing, not to mention the scriptural thing, by speaking up.

Can you show me where Ezekiel took his concerns about the false prophets who whitewashed etc to the false prophets themselves before speaking up about them? Or Jeremiah and the other prophets? Or where David or the other kings and armies of Israel or Judah dialogued with the false prophets and heathens before destroying them and their idols?

Can you show me where John spoke with the prophetess Jezebel to air his concerns before ‘outing’ her in the Book of Revelation? Can you show me where Jesus talked with the money lenders before overturning their tables in the temple? Or where he spoke quietly with the pharisees before calling them a brood of vipers?

Does your pastor speak up about the Pope, Mormonism, spiritualism, JWS and other apostasy? If so has he brought it to their leaders first before speaking up?

The Bereans searched through the scriptures vigorously while they tested and weighed Paul’s words. In those times it would not just have been a personal ‘Bible study’ activity at home, but a vocal debate. We are having such a debate here, albeit on the internet, except one seems to be shutting her ears. If you have nothing to hide why be afraid of this debate? Come, let us reason together. I have tested and weighed your associated ministries and found them wanting.

>I believe you are referring to the time an individual sins against you personally when you talk to them one-on-one about it, then bring a friend etc if they do not listen, and then the church deals with them.

To clarify, this is not just when someone sins against you personally, but also if you see them commit adultery etc. It is the godly principle for rebuking/discipling your brother or sister in Christ in your particular ‘local’ fellowship. All in the body have this responsibility, not just the ‘pastors’. Then, if that person does not listen a second time when you go with someone else, then the church as a whole disciplines them, perhaps defellowshipping them for a season ‘handing them over to satan’, with a view to restore them if they repent in the future.

You have confusion about ‘disciplining’ – which I have no authority to do over Cain, Wagner et al as I am not in their fellowship and cannot kick them out of a fellowship I am not part of – as compared to speaking up about them and warning the body of Christ about them which I am scripturally free to do on the internet or elsewhere. I am warning the body – consisting of numerous fellowships worldwide – about them and their errant teachings which is a HUGE differance to personally disciplining them.

I note that you STILL dodge answering all my scriptural reasons for why I say there are problems in these ministries. I ‘called’ you on it. You said they were scriptural and held to the fundamentals of the faith. I have proved they are not. You ignore this and other important issues completely and dodge the questions by firing back at me by calling me names. Fine, call me names if you like. But answer my questions!

Your blog is in defence of Patricia King and you claim you cannot see a good reason for her being knocked. I have presented several very good reasons why she is being criticised by the church.

Besides which, most of my concerns were posted to you, about YOUR lack of discernment about King et al. I have taken my criticisms about you to you.

And lastly, did you break the law or not speeding through Phoenix?

At this point I found out my post had been deleted to which I sent her one last response mentioning it was my last one, this again was ignored and deleted.

I readdressed my concerns as above, and said they the fact that my post had been deleted in a supposedly open debate indicated that Rahab had no real interest in the truth and had something to hide by not answering my questions – could it be she could not scripturally justify the NAR and knew she was on weak ground as I had ’shown her up’?- and by deleteing this post, she therefore was not living in the light. She was hiding behind nonsensical arguements as an excuse not to answer the questions and concerns.

Apparently, according to Rahab, Patrica King, Rahab’s ‘mentor’,  just ‘loves’ the critics of her ministry back. Therefore it is claimed, she is far more holy or on a far higher spiritual plain by keeping silent. If true, however this avoidance is spun, the truth is, she is avoiding the real issues by ignoring answering these questions! She is therefore not living in the light either. If Patrica King has nothing to hide, then let her answer the critics with a sound Biblically based arguement as did Paul and the apostles to their critics!

Furthermore despite me specifically asking Rahab about 5 times, she refused to answer the question about whether she has broken the law or not speeding through Phoenix. I asked her if her pastor (who she seems to rely so much on) knew about this speed infringement, and if so, what he though about this while claiming an ‘angel of the lord’ called Swift helped her break the law.

Patricia King’s Supporters: It has to do with the rhema word, the ‘now’ word of God. Faith comes by hearing and obeying the word that the Lord is speaking to you right now. Revelation is vital to being able to walk with Jesus.

Me: I believe in the so-called ’rhema’ word of God. It is important. However, I also said that if this rhema contradicted the logos, the written word of God, it could not be entertained as being from the Lord. Many of the NAR’s ’rhemas’ do contradict the word of God (by a long way), yet this is simply ignored or brushed aside – or worse still covered up.

What is wrong with people like Rahab who refuse to look at the truth when it is confronted to them? They do not want to believe it. They deafen their ears. Rahab prefers to believe a gemstone turning up in one of Patricia King’s meetings is a sign of God’s blessing upon the NAR and its prophets and apostles, than the true word of God which says the NAR is heretical and to be avoided with a bargepole. ‘False signs and wonders to decieve even the elect’……’a powerful delusion’. How sad. My heart grieves, but on her head be it. I have warned her.

It is interesting that Rahab criticises me for basing part of my argument against the NAR on direct prophetic revelation – You are basing your judgment of these men and this movement upon the totally subjective criteria of “God told me.” The voice of the Lord that we hear is completely subjective and filtered through out own emotions, opinions and prejudices. I know this is true in the way I hear the Lord.’ which she herself claims is completely subjective and dependant on one’s own opinions, prejudices and emotions etc (which I disagree with if one is a prophet and knows God’s voice - this indicates Rahab knows little about the true prophetic, only the counterfeit - but let’s just say her argument holds true)  -  but later on she claims that one needs to walk in the ‘rhema’ and it is vital to have this new revelation and enlightenment to understand the new move of God. Contradictory arguement to say the least. She is basing her whole walk on what she herself declares to be a subjective, prejudiced and opiniated and impure thing within a gnostic spirituality, under an abusive leadership structure where she is taught not to question, speak up, or weigh up scripture. Cue, enter the antichrist.

See here for more on Patricia King http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/08/15/more-on-patricia-king-and-extreme-prophetics/