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The doctrine of demonic ‘ground’ in deliverance

There is a popular teaching in deliverance and spiritual warfare circles that is almost universally accepted as ‘gospel’. Certainly while I was in Youth With A Mission (YWAM), it was part of the fundamentals of their teaching.

The understanding goes that demons (unclean spirits) have a ‘legal’ right to stay ‘in’ a person (Christian or otherwise) (or if not ‘in’ them ’attached’ to them) if there is unrepented or unconfessed sin. Some ministers will even claim that demons have a ‘legal’ right to hold onto areas of hurt and trauma (not just sin) until it is dealt with by inner healing. This area of unconfessed sin/hurt is called ‘demonic ground’. It is often (not always) the ‘entry point’ for the demons. Many in today’s church will extend this principle of ground to apply to neo Spiritual Warfare and Spiritual mapping to redeeming the physical land or literal ’ground’ in a similar way.

Now I believe these teachings are false and a lie from the pit because although it may sound logical and even reasonable, it is just not biblical! Regarding personal demonic ground: neither the slave girl (or her owners) in the Book of Acts gave permission, let alone repented of fortune telling or any other sin, neither regained any ground first before  the apostle Paul commanded the demon of divination to leave the girl. The demon left – it had to obey the name of Jesus – and the slave girl’s owners were actually furious about their loss of revenue! Likewise the demoniac man at the Gadarenes with the numerous demons, ’Legion’, did not give his permission to the disciples or to Jesus, far less confess any sin etc etc as he was not in his right mind to do so. However with a word, the demons left on both occasions I mention, and many more times in scripture than this. They had to. Jesus commanded them to go and the demons had to go. There was no ground for them to stay or they would have stayed! The only time that demons did not  leave was when the disciples lacked faith and doubted – the answer to this, said Jesus, was prayer and fasting, I believe not so much to cause the demon to go, but for the disciples to get more faith and to understand more while they prayed and fasted til they got to a place where they had the faith that can  move mountains. So if you presently lack this sort of faith, pray and fast. If you lack an answer to prayer (that is according to God’s will) and need a miracle despite repeatedly asking God, pray and fast as you may lack the faith to recieve it as James said those who doubt are ‘double minded’ and should not expect to recieve anything from the Lord. Humble yourself before God and he will meet with you. Fasting is not a hunger strike, it is not a magic ritual with a guaranteed cause and effect – but it is humbling of self to God and a commital to seeking His face, in order that knowledge about God and his ways, increased self awareness of sin, and faith based on this revelation can ensure and bring miracles and deliverence forth. For where God is, His power is.

If the ‘new’ teachings about demonic ground were really true, then Paul and Jesus could not have done these exoricisms as the demons had legal right to stay and would not have budged one bit. We are repeatedly told by modern day spiritual warfare experts that demons are absolute legalists, after all! However it is not true. It cannot be, for scripture says otherwise. Unlearn it, people, along with the myriad of false teachings that go along with it! When I have more time, I aim to write more on the misapplying of binding and loosing, and the distorted modern day teaching of ‘binding the strong man’ – another YWAM favourite.  The strong man (Satan), was of course bound and made a public spectacle of by Christ’s triumph on the cross and then his resurrection, hence the being able to rob Satan of his spoils now as we are snatched from the kingdom of this world with the Prince of the Power of the air (Satan) as its ruler, to the kingdom of God ruled by the everlasting Prince of Peace – thus Satan no longer has legal right over us to oppress us – we are redeemed! We are no longer under Satan’s authority but Christ’s authority and rule and are God’s adopted children who have been made kings and priests in His kingdom to heal the sick and release the oppressed and be freed from sin. 

‘Binding the strong man’ is not something one needs to have to keep doing time and again in each new prayer or ministry situation – nor is it something one should do – as it misunderstands and even contradicts the power and truth and authority of the cross and the true gospel. The strong man is already bound (in this sense), and the spoils are there already for the taking by the church if they will but believe.

Now, while Jesus did mention about the importance to get right with God, warning people could be reinvaded by even more demons if not (the swept clean house parable),  this is nonetheless a totally differant concept of reclaiming ‘ground’ than we have previously mentioned.

As to ‘redeeming the land’, the physical territories, apart from being unbiblical and a diversion of time, effort and other resources from the true gospel and its ministry, why did Jesus or the apostles not mention it once, let alone do it? Instead they focussed on the kingdom coming one new disciple by one new disciple.  In terms of the furthering of the kingdom of God, it is done by adding people into the kingdom one by one, not by staking out the physical land for Christ or claiming anything in the heavenlies other than our place and authority in Christ.

I watched a documentory on Bob Larson, exorcist extrordinaire and demon ‘expert’ which was fittingly shown last halloween. I say ’fittingly’ because of all the pantomime and the props, not because of the demons that made an appearance for the cameras (and they certainly did that). Bob Larson of BLM ministries (who has been divorced and remarried several times with allegations of much infedility dogging his ministry but let’s put that aside for this post), was showing off a huge highly decorated jewelled crucifix to the camera – what is he now, a Catholic?! – and during the exorcism sessions he would thrust these stage props or similar or a Bible (his ’sword’), sharply into people’s backs or before their faces, which apparently the demons were terrified of.  He even growled and grimmaced at the demons and played tough while he did this.  As he is quite a short man, it looked rather ridiculous – he looked just like a proverbial short man trying to look tough to boost his self esteem.  The props were not at all necessary, in fact they went against true faith and the true word, and these other antics made it look like Bob Larson and not the name of Jesus cast the demons out! He certainly seemed to claim far more credit than was rightly due to his own efforts/ministry.

He also held long conversations with these demons before commanding them to go.  Get a name from them if you must, Bob Larson, but surely that is enough talking with them! The reason why some think ‘prophet’ William Branham and his associates of Latter Rain fame went so far astray doctrinely was because they talked to demons too much. Rather than just cast them out, apparently Branham and his colleagues would have long conversations with them about heaven and hell and its heirachy and even the end times etc. But demons are proven liars! They should never be believed!  Much of Latter Rain theology is quite literally therefore the doctrine of demons.

I suggest, Bob Larson, the demons are likewise playing you for a fool, for they are not scared of symbols or books – even the Bible in itself as an object - or any other idols such as crosses or crucifixes  – they are only scared of the power and name of Jesus and the word of God contained on the pages of that book but the page leaves or binding hold no power, this is pagan nonsense! Belief in the power of anything more is superstitious nonsense more fitting for the Roman Catholic Church than protestantism.

In this documentary, Bob Larson also went to great lengths to determine the cultural influences on an individual’s life. So there was not just the examining of genealogical charts for passed on influences, generational curses etc, but also the study of a town’s history to see how this afflicted an individual’s life. Apparently he spent several days researching this information before the actual deliverance session. Time wasted, I suggest, for I cannot see the apostle Paul or any of the others in the Bible going to this elaborate charade each time they encountered a demoniac.

December 17, 2007 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | Bob Larson, Demonology, Deliverance, Spiritual Warfare, False Prophets and Teachers, Fasting, Generational Curses, Inner Healing, Latter Rain, Spiritual Mapping, Spiritual Warfare, Territorial Spirits, Youth With A Mission (YWAM), Ywam, signs and wonders | , , , , , | 39 Comments

39 Comments »

  1. Bob Larson
    by Steve Lumbley, Apostasy Watch!
    http://www.erwm.com/BobLarson1.htm

    In case you’re not familiar with Larson he is a long time Christian radio personality who claims to be an expert on cults, the occult, and supernatural phenomena. Actually that’s not quite fair. Larson is an expert on cults and alternative religious practices and has written some very good reference materials on the subject. His focus these days though is on his so called deliverance ministry.

    Larson first came to widespread attention within the Christian community during the 80’s when his radio program Talk Back aired on hundreds of stations nationwide. During the show he would take calls from listeners who were struggling with everything from satanic ritual sexual abuse, to demonic oppression and even possession. He even took calls from critics and those who seemed to be wildly opposed to what he was doing. Needless to say the broadcast usually got quite contentious, making for some very compelling radio. It was during this time that Larson seemed to move away from being a Christian apologist and researcher to become more of what one would call a deliverance minister.

    During his heyday and even recently, Larson has appeared on numerous television shows including Oprah, Donahue, Montel, Sally Jesse, Larry King Live, & Politically Incorrect. His focus always seems to be satanic cults and activity. According to Larson, satanic cults are widespread in our society and extremely dangerous. Many day care centers are fronts for satanic cults who wish to indoctrinate and sexually abuse our children. Virtually all our problems, as individuals and as a society are caused by demons. For Larson, there is a demon behind every corner and of course he is one of the few people on earth with the expert knowledge to effectively deal with them.

    Larson conducts what he calls Spiritual Freedom Conferences in cities around the country almost every weekend. In fact he spent quite a bit of time in this one talking about how often he flies and how many cities he’s visited in recent years.

    The conference is a 2 day event with the first evening being free and open to the public. The second requires a reservation and costs $39 at the door. According to the promotional material the Spiritual Freedom Conference is designed to:

    FIND THE PERSON GOD MEANT YOU TO BE
    Bob draws upon his more than 20 years of experience investigating the occult to reveal how evil influences people’s lives. Unlike the Hollywood version of the occult, Bob’s conferences feature the supernatural center stage without smoke and mirrors! He teaches his audiences about the many ways that evil attacks human beings. “The devil traffics in human suffering,” Bob explains, “and we take people to the ‘point of the pain’ to discover where their souls have been scarred, allowing Satan to torment them. Sometimes, exorcism is part of the healing process that follows.”

    The first thing that one receives when attending is a resource catalogue displaying all Bob’s books, tapes, and training programs. The catalogue header claims that this is:

    ”INFORMATION YOU CAN’T GET ANYWHERE ELSE”

    I’ll vouch for that claim because the information presented certainly isn’t found in the bible.

    There were approximately 50 people in attendance for the free portion of the seminar including 10-12 who were either part of Larson’ traveling group or were part of the local deliverance team known as the DWJD (Do What Jesus Did) group.

    Bob Larson claims that he has performed more exorcisms than any person on the planet. He takes pride in this. It is interesting to note that the word exorcist occurs only once in the Bible. Found in Acts 19:13 and is the Greek word exorkiste which means conjurer. That is an accurate description of what I witnessed.

    After beginning with a worship song Larson launched into a pitch for his latest book, introduced several members of the DWJD team and began recounting various exorcisms that he and they have been through. Throughout the evening Larson touted these local deliverance teams that he is “planting” in cities throughout the country. He explained that even after he leaves an area the deliverance team remains to minister to those who need it. I later discovered why he is so excited about these deliverance groups. (Hint – it involves money!)

    While talking to one of his DWJD leaders Larson began to speak of abandonment issues. He told the story of one person who was demon possessed because her parents left her in day care. According to Larson, the demon told him that he had entered the girl at the age of 2 when she was left in day care. This day care facility was a front for a satanic cult. Cult members dressed in priestly robes sexually molested the children. Larson called this the curse of Melchizedek. He claimed that this is the curse under which the Catholic Church is operating.

    To attach the name of Melchizedek to the sin of pedophilia borders on blasphemy. Here’s what the Bible says about Melchizedek:

    ….King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
    Heb 7:2-3

    Melchizedek was an O.T. manifestation of Jesus. He was a King of righteousness and peace. It is not surprising that a demon would want to attach such a vile sin to that name. What was surprising was that a supposed man of God would believe the demon and perpetuate that idea. This was only the beginning of Larson’s extra biblical pronunciations.

    After this, Larson asked for any person who was born out of wedlock or felt abandoned by a parent to stand for prayer. About a dozen people stood. The first thing he did was tell them that the feelings they had were not their fault.

    He first went to one young man on the front row and prayed. When he did, the young man began to growl in a demonic voice. Bob hugged the young man close to him for a few seconds but did not attempt to cast out the supposed demon. Then he called for his DWJD team to come forward and help pray for these people. He asked several times for the team to disperse and pray for the people standing but they never did. They all seemed to want to stand around Bob as he went from one person to another. After praying for about three people and anointing them with oil he brought forth a particular girl named DeeDee (not her real name). This began an hour long deliverance session and the other 8 or 9 people who were standing for prayer never got prayer. Very strange.

    From that point on DeeDee became the star of the show. Under questioning from Bob she admitted that she had been born out of wedlock, that she never knew her father until she was 12 and that she herself had born three children out of wedlock. This all seemed very embarrassing to her. I found out later that she had already been going through some deliverance sessions with the local DWJD group. Anyway, Larson hugged her and loved her and assured her that nothing was her fault. All her problems were because of the curse of the bastard.

    This curse comes to a person who was born or conceived out of wedlock. Based on

    Deut 23:2
    A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

    Larson claimed that people born out of wedlock always have a hard time going into a church or becoming a part of a church group. This he said was the basis of DeeDee’s problems.

    During a deliverance session Larson calls up demons and converses with them. He “forces” them to tell him how they came in, by what “right” do they stay, what generational curse they’ve brought with them, etc. He also calls on a person “alters” meaning alternate personalities which he says are not demons but are personalities developed by the individual to “protect” themselves, for example protection from further emotional harm. He says some alters are good and some are bad. Working with the alters can help determine which demons are present.

    He does not simply tell a demon to depart in Jesus name. He spends a great deal of time conversing with the demon and asking questions. Somehow he assumes they are telling the truth, probably because of his great power over them. Sometimes he asks them “are you telling the truth?”

    Larson uses the “sword of the spirit” by placing a bible physically on the demonized person. This appears to cause them great discomfort. While two male deliverance team members physically held her, DeeDee struggled, writhed around and screamed as if in pain whenever Larson touched her with the Bible. He actually “stabs” the demon with the “sword” (bible) which appears to force the demon to tell him what he wants to know. Under questioning the demon finally admitted that it had gained entrance to DeeDee’s family line seven generations back when her ancestors sacrificed pigs and called on demon spirits for power.

    Eventually Larson and the deliverance team got through all DeeDee’s “alters” found the source of her curse and expelled her demons sending them to “the pit” and to “torment”. As I said, it was quite a show.

    As I was watching this farce I was asking God what was really going on here. It was clear that I was seeing demonic manifestations but it was also clear that Larson and his team were using non scriptural means of dealing with them. The first word that the Lord brought up in my spirit was conjurer. Then the Lord clearly spoke to me the words Simon the sorcerer.

    In Acts 8 we see the story of a man named Simon who practiced sorcery. He was a Samaritan and had bewitched the people of that region with his great power. Simon offered the apostles money in exchange for power of the Holy Spirit. Peter rebuked him and told him that he needed to repent. There is no evidence in scripture that Simon ever did repent.

    Historical documents indicate that Simon became a leader in a pseudo Christian sect known as the Gnostics. This is from the Greek word gnosis meaning to know. Gnosticism is the idea that God has revealed additional knowledge beyond the scriptures. This additional knowledge is required if one wants to truly seek God. What Bob Larson practices is Gnosticism.

    In Larson’s world, casting out a demon is a complex process. Only a person with the knowledge he possesses could possibly be successful. A simple believer, one who obeys the words of the Lord couldn’t possibly do what he does. No, a simple “come out in Jesus name” would never work. You must first determine the name of the lead demon, discover the source of his entrance, find out the curse under which he is allowed to stay, deal with any “alters” the person has developed as a defense mechanism. It’s all very complicated. Larson himself said that after thirty years he is still coming across new curses and new spiritual rules by which demons dominate people.

    My Assessment

    I felt sorry for the people present. They were obviously mesmerized by this man and his supposed power over demons. They were captivated by the idea that with proper knowledge they too could have extraordinary power over the powers of darkness.

    What was missing from all this was any presentation of the gospel. Not once did Larson or any of his team preach repentance from dead works and faith toward God. DeeDee was told that her having children out of wedlock was not her fault. It was the fault of her ancestors. Demons caused her to do what she did.

    The truth is that while people may be pre-disposed to certain sins due to the iniquity of the fathers (see Ex 34:7), each one of us is ultimately responsible for our own behavior. What DeeDee needed to do was confess her sin before God and ask God to grant her repentance. She should turn to God and believe the gospel which is the true power of God.

    Casting out devils is a sign that is to follow the preaching of the gospel.

    Mark 16:15-17
    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    The signs should never be the focus themselves. They are only seen as proof of the power of the death, burial, and resurrection, of the Lord Jesus.

    Like Simon, Bob Larson has attached money to the supposed power of the Holy Spirit. Earlier I told you how excited Bob was to plant these DWJD deliverance teams across the country. He should be excited because to become a member of the DWJD team you must first pay Larson $4,000. I’m not making this up. You can see it for yourself on his website.

    And the $4,000 fee is only the beginning. After that you must attend Larson’s workshops and seminars on topics like “Uncovering the Mystery of Multiple Personalities” only $299 plus transportation and lodging.

    Or perhaps you’d like to attend one of Larson’s 5 day “Restoration Retreat’s”. During these five days, Bob Larson, along with a staff of medical and mental health experts, financial advisors and experienced lay ministers, will minister to your physical, emotional, and spiritual needs. Only $1,500 (tax deductible) plus transportation.

    If you don’t have time to travel you can take advantage of Bob Larson’s expertise by phone in the privacy of your own home or office. Larson’s personal coaching program is “a 12-step program designed to meet your needs and goals. Your journey to full spiritual potential begins with your very own Personal Profile. This 20-page spiritual diagnosis will uncover crucial aspects of your life. Bob will personally pray over your Profile and God will reveal to him the keys to your freedom and spiritual development.” Only $199 per week payable in three easy installments.

    If you can’t do that, there are plenty of books and tapes available to you such as:

    Larson’s Book Of Spiritual Warfare ($15.99)
    All you need to know about demons, deliverance, angels, exorcism, Satanism, witchcraft, the occult, and psychic phenomena.

    The Four Laws of Spiritual Warfare (video $29.95)
    Learn how to confront, identify, deal with, and cast out demons.

    The Warfare Workshop (6 – one hour tapes $49.95)
    In this series you’ll learn:
    How a Christian can have a demon
    How to know if you have a demon
    How to call up a demon
    What Scriptures Satan Hates Most

    Quite a profitable little business he’s got going here isn’t it. All this reminds me of the simple words of Jesus

    …he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And don’t forget your checkbook!

    *******************

    I think Bob is so caught up in the occult that he has completely lost track of Jesus. The excitement of the occult and conjurering up of demons (exorsism) I think, has possessed him in a sense. His arrogance that he is the only one that can do this will be his downfall. If he believes he is powerful enough to ‘control’ demons that are attached to people for eg., what’s stoping him from ‘practicing’ conjuring demons in his living room at home? Nothing can stop him, cos he knows what he is doing!

    I pray that Bob Larson catches a wake up call soon and repents for what he has done, and turns his whole focus towards Jesus. Because when you play with fire will get burnt – in more ways that one.

    Comment by Deborah | December 18, 2007

  2. Yes, Bob Larson needs to repent and turn to Jesus. Along with the infidelity, financial mismanagement accusations have tainted his ministry thru the years too.
    I’ve seen Bob in person several times. And while its true, some of his writings are very informational, his sensational approach to demons and the devil makes more for good show than true deliverance.
    I was drawn to his ministry simply because of the content. He was the only person I was aware of that spoke of the devil, demons and the effect they had on people.
    I had come out of a church experience where the dark behaviours of many of the members (the women in particular) made me realize that the devil was real and very present in the lives of so-called Christians. And they loved to come after me! But what I didn’t know was how to deal with it. The leadership just swept everything under the rug, and I knew that wasn’t the way to handle demonic influences. So because I recognized this spiritual problem but had no tools with which to deal with it…I left.
    At the time Bob Larson’s explanations for some of the attacks and manifestations I had seen in church were the most plausible being offered. He also offered the first reasonable explanation I had heard for the generational devastation I can see so readily in my family line by way of the ‘generational curses’ and ’strongholds’ theories.
    In fact, it explained so much that I chose to go through a very extensive ‘renouncing session’ breaking every conceivable curse that can come down a family line.
    And I did feel better for doing so.
    But as far as becoming a devotee of Bob Larson and full-fledged spiritual warfare practitioner…that never happened. I felt too strong a focus on things demonic was unhealthy and the Lord began to re-direct me to focus on other issues pertaining to the Christian walk like faith, righteousness, etc.
    It’s true, his approach is very complicated and makes deliverance intimidating to your average believer. Which is another reason I probably didn’t get too into it: didn’t feel qualified enough!
    So this is very interesting for me to read that some of his methods are extra-biblical and more simple approaches are found in the word.
    When you get the time Miriam, it will be interesting to hear your thoughts on these deliverance methods given your 1st hand experience with them in YWAM and such.

    Blessings!
    JJ

    Comment by JJ | December 28, 2007

  3. I think my main gripe with Bob Larson is the pride, showmanship and all the extra idolotory things he adds onto the idea of deliverance. I dislike also some ministries intentionally making demons seem scarier and bigger and stronger and more difficult than they actually are, to make themselves look bigger and to boast how great and anointed they are. I do not dispute the fact demons or curses exist or that they can afflict the Christian though.

    I believe in deliverence and demons/Satan attacking Christians. I have seen it. I have seen false tongues and demons manifesting in pastors even. I beieve in curses. But like I said, breaking free from them is far more simple than many of these folk make out. Make it complicated though and people need to buy your books and tapes, go to your conferences, and have to come to you rather than go to God themelves direct. Bob Larson then becomes very special and needed and keeps in ‘business’ as compared to ‘ministry’. To this extent what he does whether he realises it or not is antichrist just like a Catholic priest.

    Have faith in God, resist the devil and he will flee – tell him and his works to go in Jesus name and they must – if you believe and do not doubt. The devil and his minions are not small or impotent – but under Christ’s feet they are and they have been made a public spectacle of by the cross! Compared to Christ they are as nothing, like the tiny ropes of the Lilliputians in Gulliver’s Travels which boast they are bigger than they actually are! Emphasise and dwell on the infinite power of Christ and his name and nothing else and you will be on the right footing. Too many Christians think of God and the devil are as ying and yang – equals, albeit with God a little bit stronger and the winner because of the cross. What heresy and what utter ignorance!

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2007

  4. here is MY personal experience with larson in the new reality series “the Real Exorcist airing in th UK..not sying he is NOT an expert,,but if he was then WHY did he do this to me??? what happened to inner healing,,ministering,,intergration…and ONE on ONE deliverance?? it DIDNT happen,,he made me WORSE and I am NOT delivered,,but,,I made it on TV!!!

    Comment by D.... | April 13, 2008

  5. I seen a video on You Tube, can’t remember the name of it, but the video was a Media trying to expose the falseness of Bob Larson. One guy set out to proof Bob Larson as a fake, and sat in one of Bob’s services. The guy had a hidden camera which another guy actually had on him at the time. It just so happen to be that Bob spoke a word to this man and it was all caught on tape. By now if your reading this, you can imagine what probably took place. Well it wasn’t what you might think, as a matter of fact what Bob said to the guy on the outset, looked like Bob didn’t know what he was talking about. Here’s what Bob told the guy, he told him that he had a demon spirit of murder. Now of coarse the guy just knew Bob did not know anything and he was the obvious fake. The ironic thing about it, was the fact in that event there was a very subliminal message, and looking through the comments on the You Tube post no one caught it.
    It was very obvious the guy didn’t like Bob Larson and set out to disproof Bob from hate for Bob and what he stood for. But in the bible Jesus said if you hate a man without a cause you have committed murder. Wow was Bob right in a spiritual perspective? I do believe he was, the guy exposing Bob actually hated him, and I doubt very much if Bob did anything to him, after all he didn’t mention that Bob had. I do believe that Bob was able to see the spirit of the guy, I don’t know how but he did, according to Jesus the guy was a murderer, in his heart. But I do not agree with Bob when it comes to people being possessed in the way he says they are, but more like oppressed of demons, there is a difference. I will not go into details on this subject it would take up way to much post, but from my studies on demonic influence and the laws of the supernatural which we as humans unknowingly give demons permission to come into our lives, it is more than likely demons don’t possess but oppress and depress a person, by battling our minds, since in that our minds are the battle ground like the bible says.
    But I must give credit where credit is due, and Bob was right on the money with the very guy who was trying to destroy Bob’s ministry, and he didn’t even know it, and as a matter of fact Bob didn’t even catch it, but did say in a interview that question him about it, that the guy by doing what he did was just hurting himself and was actually inviting even more demonic spirits in his life, which Bob was also right about. So Bob does have some kind of discernment, and again I will give him that credit for it, I just disagree on his discernment about demon possessions.

    Comment by Ron | May 20, 2008

  6. [...] Extra-biblical behavior: ‘Binding the strong man’ is not something one needs to have to keep doing time and again in each new prayer or ministry situation – nor is it something one should do – as it misunderstands and even contradicts the power and truth and authority of the cross and the true gospel. The strong man is already bound (in this sense), and the spoils are there already for the taking by the church if they will but believe. [...]

    Pingback by Canada National Prayer Breakfast at Bene Diction Blogs On | May 21, 2008

  7. See also

    http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss100/larson.htm

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | July 14, 2008

  8. Dear Saints,

    Could someone tell me or direct me to scriptures/study material by true christians that can help a person that is praying, believing, standing as the Bible tells us to do (when we feel we have done all) trying to get free of demonic torment?

    My daughter-in-law (who is a christian and loves the Lord very much) came under demonic attack about 6 months ago. We have done all we know. After checking around asking questions she is now going to a deliverence minister. She has been hospitalized (2). The torment causes her to nearly breakdown mentally. She checks herself into the hospital before she totally breaksdown.

    She is hearing voices that tell her to do awful things like remove her clothes, nobody likes her, she is evil, kill herself. ect…..

    No medication is helping.

    The deliverince minister who loves the Lord and I truly feel is doing all he believes he knows to do. Which are all the things that I read here that you point out and show scripture for that are not bibical. Binding & loosing, casting out, pleading the blood, commanding them to go in Jesus name. He even gets my daughter-in-law to speak to them and command them to go. Is it working? NO! The minister tells her to keep on doing it. Each time she commands them to leave they get weaker. More of their stronghold is pulled down.

    He feels this torment is caused by a trama that happened 6 months ago (a man made a pass at her) the minister feels this has brought back a undealt with molestation that happened to her at 5 years old on halloween night as she was trick-or-treating with her sister & brother. The man went to jail. She has done fine been a christian for years, now this. She is now 23 years old and a very good girl.

    Has anyone out there had first hand experience of a situation like this?

    Blessings,
    Sherry

    Comment by Sherry | September 24, 2008

  9. Sherry

    Whereabouts in the world are you approx?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | September 24, 2008

  10. Sherry,
    I may not know a thing, and this may be off the wall, but when I read your post about your daughter-in-law, the word ‘forgiveness’ came to mind.

    Has she forgiven her trespasser?

    I have no idea if this could give the demonic a hold on her but it could possibly set her free as well. That is my two cents. I will be praying for her deliverance.

    Comment by servant | September 24, 2008

  11. Sherry, my daughter is presently experiencing the same thing. My mother and I pray for her ourselves. We’ve avoided going to the doctor (although I’m not against doctors) because we would rather see her healed without having to go through being medicated etcetera. Because we keep seeing her get better after prayer we haven’t needed to take her to a doctor. We have seen God move over and over in this. We keep seeing God come through so we are heartened even when we see that the battle is not over yet. What keeps me going is knowing that my son had the same thing including a relapse but he is fine now and has been for a couple of years. What also keeps me going is knowing a couple in my church who are real prayer warriors and their son got schizophrenia symptoms and was put in the hospital. They prayed and he got better and then he had a relapse and ended up back in the hospital. They then fasted and prayed for three days and he got better and has been fine ever since. I also know that I was healed myself. After several years of depression and having God help me in the depression even though I still continued to have it, I finally had enough of it and prayed and sought God earnestly and I was set free and I have not experienced the depression since. I still have occasionally very short term episodes but they never last. We keep praying for everything that God shows us and we DON’T GIVE UP! I really feel for you and for your daughter-in-law. I know what it’s like firsthand. I hope this will encourage you. Remember David knew God’s power when he faced Goliath because he’d already seen God deliver him from the lion and bear. God is absolutely faithful. I encourage you to read the word too because it strengthens you. I found the verses in the Psalms to be very helpful. Verses about calling on God, and about God strengthening your heart and about waiting on God.

    Comment by Laurie | September 24, 2008

  12. I just want to add to what I already said above. I know that my experience is not biblical either in the sense that in the bible people were delivered instantaneously without the “battle” that I’m experiencing. I know that the bible is true and not my experience. But what can I say? I deal with what I have to deal with. I can’t let my daughter go so I continue to pray for her and I do have faith that she will come through this and she has been coming through. I am encouraged by the answers to prayer that I’ve already seen even though I don’t see her completely restored yet. I’m encouraged by the other people that have come through this and been restored through prayer. I’m also encouraged by the word of God which is what leads me to pray in the first place.

    In the article above, there is a paragraph that really witnesses to me:
    “The only time that demons did not leave was when the disciples lacked faith and doubted – the answer to this, said Jesus, was prayer and fasting, I believe not so much to cause the demon to go, but for the disciples to get more faith and to understand more while they prayed and fasted til they got to a place where they had the faith that can move mountains. So if you presently lack this sort of faith, pray and fast. If you lack an answer to prayer (that is according to God’s will) and need a miracle despite repeatedly asking God, pray and fast as you may lack the faith to recieve it as James said those who doubt are ‘double minded’ and should not expect to recieve anything from the Lord. Humble yourself before God and he will meet with you. Fasting is not a hunger strike, it is not a magic ritual with a guaranteed cause and effect – but it is humbling of self to God and a commital to seeking His face, in order that knowledge about God and his ways, increased self awareness of sin, and faith based on this revelation can ensure and bring miracles and deliverence forth. For where God is, His power is.”

    I believe God is calling me to fast as well.

    Comment by Laurie | September 24, 2008

  13. We live in the deep South. Middle of Alabama.

    Thank you for your post and your 2 cents. That was why I shared I need 2 cents from you folks! :~)

    My daughter-in-law and I had a long talk about forgiveness. We talked about how for her to hang on to unforgiveness will only hurt her. Also how even though the one who violated her did commit a terrible sin God still created him and loves him. God does not love the sin, but He does love the sinner and we need to pray that if he has not repented and come to know Jesus that he will.

    She agreed. She and I then prayed a prayer together. She repented of her unforgiveness and released him to God.

    It seems to be a spirit of fear that is tormenting her. She and my son are now staying with my husband and me for a while. She is afraid to be alone (b/c of the voices tormenting her.) She feels safer in the house with me, my husband, and my son with her. When they are at work I am still in the house with her. Plus she has me to stand and pray with her when they are really strong and won’t seem to leave.

    I appreciate everyones prayers and any comments that could help her get free.
    Blessings,
    Sherry

    Comment by Sherry | September 24, 2008

  14. Sherry:

    My best advice for your daughter at this time when alone is to focus on Jesus and not demons, especially as the evil one seems to be latching onto that fear and it can be a downward spiral. So instead of addresssing Satan, let her talk to God and God alone when they manifest, or she thinks they manifest. The only talking to ’satan’ should be “the Lord rebuke you Satan in Jesus’ name” and leave it at that. Focussing on God should instantly make her more peaceful.

    I suggest instead of focussing on warfare binding loosing and charging and cutting and commanding, that she sincerely submits herself to God, everything [and by that I mean her whole self and not just to get delivered of the voices but all that sets itself in opposition to God such as pride and even stuff that she thinks is unlinked], and says something like in her own words: “Here I am God, search me and try me. If there is any impure thing in me, anything opposed to you, of me or apart from me, any thoughts, any sin, iniquity, even hidden sin I cannot see, purge it from me, get rid of it, rip it from me, cast it away from me, deliver me, cleanse me and heal me – God make me holy, pure for you. I hate all that is opposed to you and turn away from it and will have nothing to do with it and cast it aside. Lord forgive me, purify and cleanse me with your blood. Make me holy for your glory and your glory alone.”

    I am sorry to ask, but you are not paying the deliverence minister are you for his services?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | September 24, 2008

  15. My daughter was also being tormented with fear but we are past that now. (This has been happening for us since August 1) She seems to be past the spiritual issues. Now she seems to be experiencing what I believe are the physical effects of her ordeal. She’s been through a lot and knows she is not quite herself. She is very forgetful and her thinking is very scattered. She is highly susceptible to stress and seems to react and overreact to even slight stress. I’ve been told that when your body has been running on adrenaline it takes some time for healing and rest. My daughter, as soon as she feels better wants to jump back in to her life instead of resting and she gets in to things she’s not ready for which seems to cause her to relapse. God has shown my mom and I to pray for her physical body for healing as we continue to pray for any issue that comes up. I will let my mom know about your daughter-in-law and we will join you in praying specifically about the fear she is experiencing. God bless you and please let us know how things are going.

    Comment by Laurie | September 24, 2008

  16. Sometimes I wonder if part of the reason people who have been wounded have a hard time with being delivered is because their abuse has made them doubt God. I know that was my case. It’s hard to trust God for healing when He allowed the abuse to happen in the first place. That may be wrong thinking, but it was still there, regardless. It took me years of prayers for deliverance being prayed over me, yet I still struggled because I couldn’t trust God. Seriously, quitting the WordFaith, as well as getting out from under the NEW stuff is what opened my heart to hearing God again. Now I hunger for the Word and for Him, not someone else’s hand to get my healing. Truly, our only safety is in God and His Word. Now, I’m healing. Praise the Lord.

    Comment by marybee | September 24, 2008

  17. I thank everyone who has shared with me. Everyone has been helpful. I shared all the post with my daughter-in-law. We decided to try a different plan and do as you advised, endtimespropheticwords. We have nothing to lose since it is all Bibical and everything to gain.

    The bible scripture submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee.

    How do you go about resisting the devil? Is that when the warfare of saying, “the Lord rebuke you satan in Jesus name” is done? Is that how we resist? I know that is a dumb question however I really am not sure. Once again thanks everyone!

    Blessings,
    Sherry

    Comment by Sherry | September 25, 2008

  18. I forgot to say. No I am not paying the deliverence minister. I ask around the christian circles and checked several out. Most of them told me they would make it afordable. I do believe a workman should be paid but in the case of a deliverence minister I feel he should be a pastor of a church, and it should be part of his normal duties as a minister Of God.

    It was just part of the preaching of the gospel in the Bible. Jesus went around preaching/teaching/praying for the sick to be healed/casting out demons. Me and my daughter-in-law attended his church several times before I spoke to him about our needs. We have been attending now on a regular basic. I feel peace in my spirit that the offering we put in the offering plate (which is what we would give any place we went unless the Lord told us different) is suffice.

    Blessings,
    Sherry

    Comment by Sherry | September 25, 2008

  19. Sherry,

    Although, your daughter’s case appear some how hopeless and complicated in the sight of men, but not so in the sight of God. For with God nothing shall be impossible!

    I want to assure you that as long as you put your faith in God and not man,your daughter shall receive her promised deliverance.It’s already been paid for in full at the cross.Do not be deceived !

    Deliverance is not as complicated as we make it look like. Let us learn to exalt the name of Jesus Christ more than that of the devil;with the understanding that the devil is a defeated fowl who has already been stripped of his power after the Lord made an open spectacle of him and paraded him before his subjects.

    Contrary to porpular believe, deliverance is the children’s bread not healing; according to the book of Matthew 15:26. Take your daughter to a believer or a man of God who has faith;not an “unbelieving believer” or a “faithless man of God” and let him pray a prayer of faith over her and she SHALL be instantly delivered in Jesus name amen.

    Finally,i will like to add that you don’t pay for deliverance or for power of God.it’s a free gift from God.Beware of any minister of the gospel that tells you to sow a seed for her deliverance because it’s unscriptural.

    Jesus said to his disciples “freely you have received freely give” remember the story of simon the soccerer peter said to him your money perisheth with you,for you think that the things of God can be purchased with money…..

    God bless u.

    Comment by GAB | January 7, 2009

  21. How in the world did I miss this thread?

    Sherry, Laurie, how are your daughters? Have you heard the bits and pieces of my story I have left around this blog? We must keep this thread alive for others who are believing God and praying for their loved ones. Let’s encourage one another.

    Comment by Karen Butler | January 30, 2009

  22. Karen Butler,

    Karen no I don’t remember reading your stories. Give me directions to them. I would love to read any encouragement You can give!

    As of this date January 30, 2009 my daughter-in-law is still struggling. She now makes a involuntary sound of grunts when she breaths. It is not very loud but very anoying to her.

    We did get a small break. Fron Nov. 20th. 2008 till sometime after christmas she heard no voices but was still on very strong medication. Now the voices are back.

    We have since left the deliverence ministry. It was a very long drive and we were going there during the time that the gasoline prices were sky high. (I am unemployed because she can not be left alone.)She lives next door to me.

    The Minister began to show many signs of control and began asking for money. When we left they had only one other person coming, besides his (4) family members. I would have continued to take my daughter-in-law even though gas was sky high but she was not getting any better there. She was once again hospitilized and put on even stronger medication durning that time.

    When she returned home from the hospital I told her to tell me ever time the voices returned. She did. I prayed. They nearly wore me out night and day because I moved her and my son in the house with me & my husband so I could help her battle. I think our constance battle was the reason we got a month break from them.

    When they moved back to there home (which is next door to me) it was about (3) weeks before they returned. She calls me day or night when she needs my help praying. When I quote scriptures or pray a prayer that I copied off this site that Mariam wrote for someone else the voices leave right away. They may stay gone a hour or a day, but they always return. Now we got this grunt noise she makes without meaning to.

    My question is why do they keep returning? She is a christian. (a very young one I admit but she is learning) This torment sometimes causes her faith to get weakened but I know it is hard being a low I.Q. and a very young christian also.

    Thanks for caring and for your prayers!
    Blessings,
    Sherry Lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 30, 2009

  23. Sherry, often we have to find how the demons got in, in the first place so we can make them go away permanently. If we do not know what gives them permission to be in us, they can come right back in over and over. When you speak of her grunting as she breathes, i wonder if it is Turrettes Syndrome? I have seen cases of this, and demons can act out in many different ways to humiliate the host. …DavWms

    Comment by David L. Williams | January 30, 2009

  24. I feel it is unforgiveness that is the source of the problem. However, we have talked about forgiving and prayed prayers of forgiving. Yet, her heart might not be at the right place as yet.

    She was taken away from her family when she was raped on halloween night at 5 years old. The police wasn’t able to find her and remove her from the rapeist house till the next day. No telling what she suffered. (she has blocked everything out. All she remembers is the man getting her and the police rescuing her. Nothing inbetween. The counclor thinks we don’t need to try to make her remember.

    She suffered much abuse from her father. Was hospitalized for a broken hip when thrown against a fireplace at age 5 also. When the rapeist got her that was the last straw. Human resorces took her away and she went into the foster care system. Where she was also abused. A proven fact. She was awarded lots of money from a judge for this abuse. So it is not hear say. It is proven abuse.

    I am praying her heart will come to a place that she can forgive all. She says she has but………
    She refuses to meet with her parents even though they ask about her and it has been over 25 years now. That tells me she has a way to go in forgiving. Pray for her.

    Thanks for you reply. We feel all alone in this sometimes.
    Blessing,
    Sherry Lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 30, 2009

  25. Sherry

    You cannot do it all for someone in terms of “standing in the gap” – you cannot live their Christian life for them, forgive others on their behalf, or ask forgiveness for themselves – if only it were that easy, the whole world will be saved! I know you know this, but there is bad doctrine in the church on intercession and what it really means so lines can be blurred and we can strive for others and wear ourselves out where it is their call.

    As far as forgiveness, you cannot force that either. Either people are willing or they are not, though it cannot really happen until someone has themselves experienced the incomparable love and forgiveness of Christ. I think that this lady has not got there yet [other people are more living out the 'conversion' on her behalf and she is paying lip service so it is not the reality it should be for HER, she is more riding along?] – and I think there is dark self loathing and hatred towards herself.

    Also re: forgiving others, it is not a feeling that one needs to experience first, it is an act of will – and some people wait for the feelings to have the will. I know where there has been rape/abuse/murder it is impossible to muster up those feelings of fogiveness if we are going to be completely honest beforehand. But it is there we come to the foot of the cross, and say “Lord, you know how I feel, and as I love you and your Lordship is more important than anything – even my own feelings and ‘rights’ – I am willing to submit it all to you, bow to you and forgive x person as you want me to. You know my heart and how it feels. I lay it open before you. Search me and remove the darkness and the hurts so my heart also can forgive, I know these feelings of hatred etc are wrong and I hand them to you, I release them to you, I repent of them, and say Lord help me. I forgive x person.”

    That is true repentance and gives the Lord a place to work.

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 30, 2009

  26. EndTime,
    I agree with all you’ve said.

    Is there anything I can do to help her? Anything at all? I know that I am not her deliver. That is Jesus job. However, when anyone see’s suffering it is compassion that moves you. Even if it is a wrong move. I am worn and frazzeled. I need to make some right moves. Is it hands off and leave it alone? I don’t leave her home alone because once I did and she called the police to the voices.

    Then I ask, When someone is crying, screeming at the voices to shut-up, the tormentor is driving them nutty, and they know to rebuke them, but the mind is in such a confussing turmoil, they don’t remember what to do, how do you take a hands off stand? Those are the worse days. Most days she is so sleepy from medication. The voices come. I pray and they leave, And she mostly sleeps. And it goes on and on……
    Any advice is welcome.

    Sherry lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 30, 2009

  27. Pray. Fast by all means too. Ask God for His way forward in this – for you and her – it may be something you have overlooked. But know this in God’s hands.

    Certainly encourage her to break her over-dependancy on you and point her back to God, and to seek God for herself and not second hand via others. You are not her god or priest and should not be. It can seem cruel to break co-dependency but it is best for her and the only way to break free. [And some people find when they do this the person does not want to be well - I have seen it - they like being needy and wallowing, so stop playing this game. Offer the way out, they don't want to take it, don't wallow with them.].

    I think you also need to think about setting some boundaries, like it is generally not ok to call you 3am each morning, but in a real extraordinary emergency of course emphasise it would be ok.

    My best advice for this lady is to focus on God generally [when the voices are there, and even more so when they are not] and not on the voices/the devil – especially when she gets scared as this can become a spiral she cannot well break through of – and for HER to stop talking back/rebuking – “ignore” them and just focus on God and praise Him instead in these times. People can get caught in a cycle of fear and its time to break the cycle. Submit yourself to God…. and the devil will flee.

    Do you think there is an element of attention-seeking going on – she calls, you run to her, so she gets lots of attention? Perhaps if you and others affirm her even more you are there for her/love her when she is Ok and calm and make those times as positive and fun and good as possible, she may get better? Positive therapy opposite to aversion therapy I guess”

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 30, 2009

  28. I have felt that it might be a way of getting attention (some of the times) not everytime though. I really believe some are very real. Nobody goes to the sic ward at the hospital for attention. Not when they hate it as much as she does. Sometimes I feel she hides her true condition for fear of going back to the hospital.

    Attention getting: Do you feel that you got that from the Holy Spirit or were you just wondering?

    I ask because that has been suggested to me before. (twice. once by a prophet, but my belief in the prophetic word from the prophets around here is zero level.)

    I have started making more of an effort to let her know that I am not here to entertain her when she gets board.

    Also she has been told if she does not show a improvement she will have to go to mental health group therpy everyday. Something she does not want. (she does not wnat to be around those people. They are weird. hahaha)

    Also this is something I do not want either. I have not voiced this to anyone but that would tie-up my whole day. EVERYDAY, and I still have friends and a life somewhat.

    Since she does not drive and my son (her husband) would be at work. Already my whole life is effected. I have always worked. Now I am a stay at home mom with no children at home. Just her. However, don’t get me wrong I am o.k. with it. I really don’t mind, and my husband rather I stay home. I just don’t want to take on anymore for her. I hope I don’t sound selfish.

    I also had a dream that when my job played out I was not to get another job. I was told that (2) times in this dream. Once by my daughter. In the dream she said, “Mom when your job plays out your not to get another one. Your gonna make a commerical. Then in the dream there was a knock at my front door. I opened it. It was Peter Jennings, this dream was before his death. When I opened the door he said, “I’m here to make a commerical with someone.”

    Was it a God dream? I don’t know, but I didn’t quit my job. It played-out due to cut-backs at just the time I would have had to quit because of daughter-in-laws illiness, but as things turned out I didn’t have quit. It played out just as she got to where she could not be left alone.

    Am I waiting on the commerical- To give A message from my sponsor. (Jesus) Naw, if it happens it does. If it don’t then the dream was not a God dream. And who know? I might have already made the commerical and was not aware. I don’t wait on prophecy or dreams to be fulfilled. To many are not of God. Simple as that.

    Thanks for your insight endtimes and everyone!

    Sherry lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 30, 2009

  29. Sherry

    I don’t understand the commerical aspect?

    I know what you are saying, but people can do things subconciously too or not all realise what they are doing. I know someone who claims to hate hospital but is a real attention seeker and uses illness to get attention – she regulalry complains of hypocondrical ailments – and sometimes she does generally make herself sick with numerous ailments as she invites it by her attitude. Perhaps she thinks it is the only way she can get “love” via this kind of drama/negative attention – but of course it is the opposite as we all know she is crying wolf and cannot stand the continual manipulation any more.

    I have known several people over the years who sound very much like your friend and I learned the hard way. I had the 3am phone calls and you are thinking you are doing the right thing and being kind but ultimately you are not. When you stop playing their game, they either get well or move onto someone else to wear out. I am not saying for sure this what your friend is, but she could well be like this – in part. I do sense she is playing you some [not always like you say, she has some real problems] People like this completely wear you down. And it is not healthy spiritually for them to be so fixated on you as the knight in shining armor to rescue you [if even this is what they think, she maybe just lonely] – Jesus is that one, and He must be her first port of call. And you are not being selfish creating boundaries and cutting her loose a bit. And if she refuses to do this, refuses to focus on jesus you may see she does not want to get as well as you thought.

    Your saying “that I am not here to entertain her when she gets bored” could mean she exagerates her need – do you see what I mean. She knows you will be there if she needs ministry, or she will be left alone when she is bored – so if I am lonely and lack integrity I am gonna lie or exagerate or even subconciously invite the voices back to have a crisis. Hence my suggestion to try positive therapy. Almost the opposite of what you are doing now. Aversion therapy to the cycle of dependancy going on so she realises friendship and love is not just digging out of holes.

    One way is maybe schedule set times in the week firm dates [regardless of how she is feeling, voices or not] – two or three times a week perhaps, not much more – to go shopping or have coffee, do a beauty treatment, whatever you like to do together – positive girlie time. No ministry as such, just hang out and friendship. And you can pray of course and talk about God but I suggest do it about other things in her life, not just her voices/illness. No talk about deliverance. Change the focus and the spiral completely. I would insist she starts thinking and praying about something else. Then her life/you is not just about the voices. Do you see what I am trying to say?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 31, 2009

  30. Thanks!
    Sharry Lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 31, 2009

  31. Please let me know how it goes!

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 31, 2009

  32. EndTime,
    I will say one more thing and be done.

    One reason I questioned is she doing any of this for attention is.

    One Saturday my son is doing yard work. I see her walking around the property with her dog. After about 2 hours of son doing yard work my husband and I hear some of the most awful screeming under our house. I thought someone had got her to hurt her.

    Husband runs out the back door. I run out the front door. Looking for her. We can tell by the sound it is daughter-in-law screeming. My son has the leaf blower on and hears nothing.

    I get to her first. She is under the crawel space of my house screeming at the voices to shut-up. I get her in my living room. (Lord what do the neighbors think is happening?) I calm her down and ask her what in the world is the matter with you? (husband is now in the kitchen discusted. He say’s put her away someplace! No patients! )Typical male.

    The voices she says are driving her nutty. They are under my house.

    I tell her, “now you really know they are not under my house.” Yes, she really knows this, but they sound like they are and they have convinced her they are. I ask her why she let it get so far out of control? She says she thinks she can handle it without me. I say by all means if you don’t need me don’t call me. But you can not go around screeming under my house!

    I began to pray and rebuke them in Jesus Name. I pray some more scripture, can’t remember exactly now what. When I finished praying I ask her, “Are the voices still there? Are they still speaking to you?”

    Reply, NO! They are gone. What has me wondering is if you ask me that question I would stop a minute and listen. She did not. How would she know right away they have left? Or would you have to listen a minute?

    Many times that has happened. I ask her if they are still talking to her and she says NO right away without taking a minute to listen.
    Is this normal?

    My thinking is you would need to listen a minute to see if they were still there. Am I wrong?

    Sherry Lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 31, 2009

  33. Oh yeah,

    After the Saturday event she laied down on my livingroom couch and slept off and on all day watching T.V.

    I wondered if it was a plot. My son was out doing yard work. Was it a way to spend the day in my house with people all around her? If so honey you didn’t need to do all that. Just come in and say I’m lonely. Can I spend the day with you on the couch watching T.V.

    Of course who watches t. V. all day on Saturday? Because of the medication she’s on She watched t.V. and slept off and on all day.

    I have ask the Lord if it is mostly a attention seeker. If it is we DO NOT need any stronger medication. The Lord has been silent.

    Sherry Lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 31, 2009

  34. What does your husband think?

    What you describe does sound real manipulative.

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 31, 2009

  35. What does my husband think????

    That she needs to be put someplace. Then he has compassion in the next sentance for our son. He loves her.

    Mom (he calls me mom) just take care of it! Fix it please!

    He thinks in all honesty it is a lot of fake for attention because she can not find things to do to keep herself from being board.

    Then he know she is somewhat mental. Demons he is not to sure about. Total Baptist you see.

    Sherry Lee

    Comment by Sherry | January 31, 2009

  36. Sherry,

    Oh my goodness. What a gift you have been given in this trial, if you can begin to see it this way. I am not saying you are grumbling, just that I myself made giant leaps forward in my walk with God when I stopped accusing Him of doing me wrong in the great trials He allowed in my life, and began instead to see the “strong hand of love hidden in the shadows.”

    I do not have permission from my daughter to share her story in any detail, so to protect her privacy, I am only going to say she has been greatly disappointed at the hand of so-called deliverance ministers, and psychiatrists and medications and has chosen bitterness toward the Christian God, and her own form of self-medication instead. She is in great danger, both physically and at the hands of her mental torturers. So yes, I covet your prayers, and those of all who would have an understanding of these issues, and those whose joy it is to share a burden.

    I do understand your issues. I have dealt with them also with my own mother, whose story I have great delight to share with you, as God healed her from schizo-effective disorder, and a lifelong dependence on alchohol and then, psych drugs. She died in her right mind, trusting the finished work of Jesus to be her all. I have talked about it here on a thread that ended up talking much about dealing with loved ones with schizophrenia, http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/what-if-the-spiritual-manifestations-do-not-stop/ .

    I talk there about my own journey of being healed of “stinking thinking” that was demonically controlled (I actually had a psychotic break with reality caused in part from postpartum exhaustion, both mental and physical).

    My first thoughts as I read your story about your daughter-in-law is agreement with Miriam, that she is too dependent on you for her healing and must be gently weaned from you. Obviously she has not had good mothering in her life, and enjoys your compassionate care, and this must be done with great wisdom, recognizing the severe abandonment issues she must have, from such a horrific childhood. I think Miriam’s approach is right, that you must move the relationship towards a healthy friendship model, and encourage her to rely on her Heavenly Father for the nurturing she so desperately seeks.

    But I think she may be apallingly over-medicated. Sleeping all day, poor thing! And the involuntary grunts may be a side-effect of the anti-psychotics, called Tardive Tourettism, which Wikipedia says “is a tic disorder that can closely mimic Tourette Syndrome, sometimes to the point where the two can only be distinguished by the details of their onsets.” So ask the doctors…different meds, a lower dose, because if it is a tic brought on by meds, it can become permanent. (But one close to me was healed of a dyskinesia, a great involuntary shudder, from prayer, and going off the meds.)
    The psychiatrists I would trust would be the ones who understand that medication is more an art than a science, and don’t treat their patients like guinea pigs.

    Sherry, is she healthy physically, eating fresh nutritious food, and getting some exercise everyday? Those elements were also key for me in healing. I have to minimize caffeine, do step aerobics regularly (with a Christian tape, set to worship music) or the insomnia and anxiety can dog me again. We are physical creatures as well.

    But mostly I would encourage her to take responsility for her deliverance. Passivity and hopelessness is defeat. Thinking rightly, that is a battle that is engaged moment by moment, and not something that is an instant fix. Also thanking God for what He was teaching me in the midst of the struggle, were key for my healing. I submitted a link for a doctrinal prayer for Miriam to check out, http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/ted-haggard-on-joel-osteens-pretty-good-theology/#comment-3401

    and in my comments there you can read how the prayer was so helpful in teaching me how to pray according to the truth, and not according to my overwhelming feelings.

    I would also encourage your daughter-in-law to memorize scripture, and teach her to meditate on it.You mentioned she has IQ issues. Well, even my six year old daughter can, so can she! There is also a wonderful DVD of the word-for-word dramatization of the gospel of John, produced by the Visual Bible International that my children love to watch. That and the Book of Acts. Their production of the Gospel of Matthew is a little too-laid back hippie Jesus for me, but the Gospel of John I find genuinely moving and well done in its depiction of the historic setting and the beauty of our Lord. So if she’s going to watch TV, let it be the words of Jesus!

    She must learn to stop going AWOL in the battle, and wanting other people to fight it for her. If she is genuinely saved, there will be growth, and although there may be setbacks like what she now seems to be experiencing, and skirmishes in the battle lost, you will see victory. Because our loving Fathers’ will is for His children to be free. If you aren’t seeing this, it might be a sign to pray for genuine repentance to salvation.

    And for your own personal battle; it must be so hard and discouraging to see so little progrss in the life of someone you love. This I know too, too well. I cannot say too many good words about fasting, as Miriam described in the article. When my heart is overwhelmed, and I don’t have direction, or I am sinking back into the mire of anxiety again, it is the first thing I do. It draws me gently back into my loving Father’s arms again. Even for short periods, like a half a day, done just for spiritual perspective again, are very helpful to me. Longer fasts I seek God’s and my husband’s direction for, as I need much grace for them, as I have had a history of eating disorders as well (another healing I can claim!) and want to be very careful, as the issues can get complicated. I love how Miriam put it: “Fasting is not a hunger strike, it is not a magic ritual with a guaranteed cause and effect – but it is humbling of self to God and a commital to seeking His face, in order that knowledge about God and his ways, increased self awareness of sin, and faith based on this revelation can ensure and bring miracles and deliverence forth. For where God is, His power is.” Amen! I hope some of what I’ve said is helpful.

    Comment by Karen Butler | January 31, 2009

  37. Hi Sherry!

    I have known some people who are genuinely sick all the time (not drawing attention to themselves) and you can tell because they try to be self-sufficient they do not try to get people to do everything for them. I read all your post and from what I have read it sounds a lot like a hypocondriac. Now, I am not saying she doesn’t or didn’t at one time have issues, but she is probably intentionally dragging it out. Often times when people are raped and abandoned, they go in one of two directions or a bit of both: 1. They reject everyone and accept no help from anyone. 2. They become completely dependent on people and will do anything to get attention or help from others. – Now, it is possible to have a combination of these traits…

    As for me personally, I suffered prolonged sexual abuse as a child and prolonged physical abuse throughout the first 16rs of my life. For me personally, I often felt the only time I was loved is when I was sick, but I built safe gaurds to keep me from becoming a hypocondriac or over-milking sickness; I hated recieving help from others. I thank God for that because there was nothing else stopping me from being completely dependent on others; I was predisposed to it. Anyway, I always felt abandoned by my family, they didn’t “leave” me, but my parents were never around, always working, and I have 5 brothers ad 1 sister so attention was scarce…

    For me, I deeply wanted to get right with the Lord even though I dragged my feet, and it has been my experience that if someone doesn’t really want to be free, they wont be. It sounds like your daughter is prolonging and even provoking this condition. She might even be saying she hated the hospital so you don’t send her there because she may really just want you to pay attention to her. This is the same reason I struggled with abusing myself physically. I used to cut myself, bite myself, ect. Although I usually did it secretly, in a way, I was doing it for attention. Maybe not at first, but that is what it became once someone called me out on it and told me I needed to repent and change my behavior.

    The truth is, I would have to surmize that you are enabling her. She probably had a genuine problem to begin with, but now it probably isn’t, and doesn’t want to let it go because for the first time in her life she probably feels she is getting the care she wants. However, she really isn’t. She is getting a very pale imitation of love and I would not continue to revolving your life around her, go get a job again and let her fend for herself. It would probably even be best if she did have to get admitted. I don’t want to sound rude, but since this is something I have, and still struggle with myself, I can honestly say that it would be best to do what is really the loving thing; let he deal with her issues on her own. Of course, do this in as gentle as a way as possible, but don’t back down on this… No matter how she threatens you with “I’ll kill myself!!!!!!!” Or other such threats, and trust me, she will.

    We must work out our own salvation, and I don’t want to say this lightly, but she is rejecting Christ if she seeks others before she seks him. It is hard, very much so, to push someone to the Lord, but she needs it desperately. I thank God everyday that I had friends who told me “AMY!!!! Go to the Lord with this issue, until you talk to God about it, I can’t talk with you about it.”

    God Bless ~Amy

    Comment by lyrafowlpotter | March 18, 2009

  38. Please do not trust the mental health departments if you know that you have a spiritual affliction as they only believe in drug treatment.We on this site are drawn to it so we must have some if not all belief here, but in Western Society we have to be careful who we talk to about God, since Talk about God = Western Society Mental Illness in the eyes of the vast majority of Joe Public.
    The ones who go to University are blinded by their teachings of what to learn for the good of a career, not the teachings of what we should all know about standards and morals.
    When we learn to drop our baggage of desires, wants, lusts,and let go of Mammon and even the internet which can be regarded as the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is something that was originally meant for military use can be frowned upon as the cause of much sin, putting the seeds of sin into the minds of our children.
    Let go of Western Society knowledge and think Worldly knowledge. A 75 year old aspirin or 5000 year old herbs. Which is the truth ?
    Have we all lost touch with the truth ?
    A typical comment in an argument ; Oh, well you know what God did don’t you…….do you remember that Church that crumbled and fell and killed all those children ?
    So I say…Who built that Church ?
    …..It’s easy to blame God.
    If we change our ways of thinking,we will find that even the Palsy can be taken as an affliction to this day.All mental illness can be taken as an affliction.But we must be careful who we tell.Many times I have attended Church and seeked help and found none, because true believers or who I call ” knowers” are found in many of us with or without a uniform or a salary.
    This is a race.Accept your affliciton and do your best to live with it, because by telling people you risk being locked away.What is in your mind is your own business.No psychologist can treat you without you telling them your personal business of what goes on in your mind.If you end up on medication it is because you said something and let the “cat out the bag”. If you have a spiritual problem seek councelling from a Christian.Do not go near a hospital as this is “last resort”.

    Comment by John Joannou | April 18, 2009

  39. Sherry – Would you mind giving us an update? I’m a new reader here – hope there’s been some progress since January? Thank you!!

    Comment by Mom of twins | May 6, 2009


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