Church abuse can kill
I find this story deeply sad for a number of reasons. I think it speaks for itself and does not need much comment. Unfortunately, this type of abuse is not an isolated incident among so-called Christian churches - and all in the name of ‘healing’. To add insult to injury the minister responsible, Bishop David Hemphill, claims, God ‘just took’ the boy. It was not God that took him - it was your abuse, Sir! How very, very sad.
“Associated Press, USA
Aug. 24, 2003
Kevin Orland, Associated Press WriterMILWAUKEE (AP)–An autistic 8-year-old boy died while being restrained during a church prayer service held in an attempt to cure him, and one man connected with the small storefront church was arrested, police and a church official said Sunday.
The boy’s mother took him to the Faith Temple Church of the Apostolic Faith for the prayer service Friday night. Several church members prayed over him for more than an hour until someone noticed he wasn’t moving and called 911, said Bishop David Hemphill Sr.
Hemphill said the boy and his mother had been going to the prayer services for the past three weeks. Members of the church, made up of just six families, prayed for God to release the evil spirits that cause the boy’s illness, he said.
“The boy just had a problem in his mind, and what we were doing was asking God to fix it,’’ Hemphill said. “He chose to fix it by taking him back home to him.’’
“All I know is we’re not guilty of anything,’’ he said.
Church members wrapped the boy in sheets to keep him from scratching himself and others, but the boy was allowed to sit “any way that he feels comfortable,’’ Hemphill said.
Police would not say what the man could be charged with, only that they were awaiting the results of an autopsy.
“If he died, which I highly doubt, of some natural cause, he won’t be charged with anything too serious,’’ said police Capt. Linda Haynes. She said she did not believe the boy had been struck during the service.
Police would not identify the man who was arrested, but Hemphill said it was his brother, Ray Hemphill, another minister at the church.
Police also did not release the boy’s name, but David Hemphill identified him as Torrance Cantrell.
The church is not connected to any larger denomination and has only six families that gather twice a week to pray and discuss Scripture, Hemphill said.
“We believe that according to the word of God, a person could get evil spiritedness,’’ he said. “Either God’s going to have to deliver, or we’re going to have to do whatever we can until things get better.’’
The church’s main window was boarded up Sunday, as were those of several businesses that neighbor it in a run-down strip mall on the city’s northwest corner.
Aug. 24, 2003 from cnn.com
‘A pastor said Saturday that church leaders were trying to heal an autistic 8-year-old boy when he inexplicably stopped breathing and died during a prayer service Friday night.
During the hourlong session, the boy’s feet and hands were restrained by his mother and other church members who prayed intensely for his violent tendencies to cease, the pastor’s wife said.
“He just passed away,” Pastor David Hemphill said of the boy. “God is a mysterious person, and if he wants to call a life back, he does.”
Milwaukee police officers arrested a man Friday night at Faith Temple Church of Apostolic Faith, a small storefront in a strip mall that houses a pizza restaurant and a dry cleaner.
Milwaukee County Sheriff’s Department spokeswoman Kim Brooks confirmed Saturday night that Ray Hemphill, the pastor’s brother and also a minister at the church, was being held at the Milwaukee County Jail on suspicion of physical abuse of a child, a felony.
The medical examiner’s office declined to release results of an autopsy done on the boy, Torrance Cantrell, citing a police request for non-disclosure.
Denise Allison, 25, said she had become close friends with the boy and his mother, Patricia Cooper, during two years living in the duplex above the family.
Allison said Torrance, called “Junior” by family and friends, was brilliant with his hands, and could craft complex kites from newspaper. Though hardly able to speak, Torrance would knock on her door and shout with a smile, “Tickle,” asking Allison to play with and tickle him.
The boy often initiated play or communication by punching at people and laughing, though neighborhood kids had learned to not feel threatened, Allison said.
“He was really fun to be around, but you had to relax, get to know him and understand his ways,” Allison said. “He just wanted love and attention like any other kid.”
Milwaukee Police Capt. Linda Haynes said there was “no striking or anything like that,” when asked whether Torrance had been disciplined during the prayer service, but said police were still investigating.
“Circumstances are suspicious because most 8-year-olds don’t just die. Unless there’s a medical condition — which we’re unaware of at this time.”
Haynes added that the boy “did not die of natural causes.”
No officials would say if they thought the use of restraints was related to the boy’s death, or to Ray Hemphill’s arrest.
David Hemphill and his church were investigated in 1998 after a mother struck her 12-year-old daughter with a stick during a church service. The girl suffered bruises and cuts.
No charges were filed after authorities talked to the mother and Hemphill, who both defended the physical discipline as necessary for the unruly girl.
David and his wife Pamela said that they did not attend Friday’s service, but rushed to church after people there called to tell them the boy was not breathing and 911 had been called.
The Hemphills said they talked to the four people who had been at the service: Ray Hemphill, Patricia Cooper and two women they would not name.
Pamela Hemphill said Ray Hemphill led the service and directed the women to restrain the boy.
The women put some sheets and cloth over the boy’s outstretched hands, and “one lady held one hand and the other lady held the other, and his mother held his feet,” Pamela Hemphill said.
The boy’s leather sneakers were removed so he wouldn’t hurt anyone if he kicked, she added.
The Hemphills said the boy’s mother came to the church seeking help about three months ago and said her son was in danger of being institutionalized because he was violent toward himself and his 2-year-old sister.
“His mother couldn’t get any rest, any sleep because he (her son) was just sick,” David Hemphill said. “It had really gotten worse.”
Some church members began holding prayer sessions with the boy three times a week, he said.
“We were just trying to pray and see if God gave him a miracle,” he said.
Pamela Hemphill said the sessions would usually last about two hours with a break halfway.
“Sometimes he kicks and scratches and throws himself to the ground,” she said. “They hold his hand or maybe his feet and maybe take his shoes off.”
But at Friday’s session, Pamela Hemphill said, the boy was “unusually quiet.”
“He seemed to be extremely tired,” she said. “He just wiggled and moved a little but not as much as usual.”
She said the boy was sitting on the floor with others sitting around him. But at one point he lay down and closed his eyes, she said.
“After they got through praying, one of the ladies said, ‘He doesn’t look too good today,’ ” David Hemphill said.
Ray Hemphill checked the boy’s pulse and found none, she said. Paramedics arrived but couldn’t revive the boy, she said, and pronounced him dead.
David Hemphill said he had no explanation for the sudden death, but said the boy was taking medications.
“I said, ‘Well, God just took him,’ ” he said.
Hemphill said Cooper, who could not be reached Saturday, said “‘My baby’s got rest now.’
Allison and other neighbors said they’d seen radical changes in Cooper’s behavior since she joined the church this spring. Once gregarious and energetic, the single mother getting by mostly on Social Security checks began to live in near-seclusion, appearing dazed, exhausted and increasingly worried.
“They completely brainwashed Pat,” Allison said.
Allison said a church member approached Cooper one day when she was struggling to control Torrance outside their home. The person told Cooper that if she brought her son to the church, he could be “spiritually healed.”
Church members began to take Cooper and Torrance to the church in a van three and four times a day for prayer, Allison said. A woman and her daughter moved in with Cooper early this summer and recently moved out, she said. Other church members were in and out of Cooper’s apartment, helping her clean and cook. Allison said Cooper told her that during prayer sessions — both at home and at church — church members would forcibly hold down Torrance and strike him in attempts to heal him of his autism.
Allison said Friday’s session sounded like one Cooper told her about earlier in the summer.
“She called it an exorcism,” Allison said. “She said they held him down for almost two hours. He couldn’t hardly breathe, and that shocked (Cooper). Then she said the devil started to speak through Junior’s voice — though he can’t really speak — saying, ‘Kill me. Take me.’”
Allison began to notice that each time the group gathered in the apartment, Torrance would screech, wail and cry. She and other neighbors noticed Torrance had a fattened lip and black eye the days after at-home prayer sessions, she said.
Once, Allison said, she looked through her friend’s window and saw church members taking turns striking the boy with a belt as Cooper watched.
“I told Pat that it was wrong, but she said the Bible told her you’re supposed to chastise your children,” Allison said. “I told her to stop, told her what could a little kid ever do that was so wrong to beat him like that? She said the church told her it was the only way to heal him.”
Allison said she confronted her friend several more times about her concerns, but never contacted authorities because she thought she could counsel her friend away from the church without causing her legal problems.
Now, Allison said, she is filled with remorse that she didn’t.
“All I can do now is tell what happened, and maybe this won’t happen again to someone else,” Allison said.”
Terrance Cottrell Jr. and Ray Hemphill . Photos from http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=165087
Oh my…I am shocked. Like you said Miriam there is actually nothing one can begin to say to express dismay. This is truly a sad, sad story
Hemphill is in prison, serving a sentence of two years and five months for the crime. He appealed but his conviction was upheld.
Do you know what he was charged with?
Ray Anthony Hemphill was found guilty in 2004 of a felony charge of physical abuse of a child by recklessly causing great bodily harm. He lay chest-to-chest with Terrance until becoming exhausted and rising up from the boy. They were both soaked with sweat, and the boy had stopped breathing. Terrance suffered extensive bruising to the back of his neck and died from pressure on his chest that prevented his breathing, the criminal complaint says. According to the medical examiner, Terrance Cottrell Jr. suffocated to death by “mechanical asphyxia due to external chest compression.”
MILWAUKEE, Wisconsin (CNN) — An 8-year-old autistic boy who died at a prayer service where church members tried to heal him of “spirits” was suffocated, the medical examiner’s office said Monday.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=242424
“And a charge of child abuse-recklessly causing great bodily harm - mainly bruising and internal bleeding in his neck”
“David Hemphill further explained that Ray has “a gift” for healing through casting out demons - which, he said, is a Biblical imperative for Christians - and that Terrance’s mother had authorized the three weeks of prayer services preceding Aug. 22.”
“Under intense cross-examination from Assistant District Attorney Mark S. Williams, David Hemphill said Terrance’s death was a product of God’s will, not an accident in the ceremony, regardless of the pressure Ray Hemphill might have used.”
“If I lay down on somebody and they pass away, God took him, I didn’t,” David Hemphill said.
“he didn’t believe statements to police that Ray Hemphill laid across Terrance’s chest for an hour or more”
It seems they suffocated him by lying on top of him for more than an hour.
Horrific!!!!
God’s will?! My foot!
It seems to me this church believes in similar ways as the Zionists do here in South Africa. If you get sick they beat the devil out of you.
This belief (for vigorous exorcisms with beatings) is particularly common in sectors of the ‘black church’ (although not exclusive to it).
Rev. Daryl P. Bujak’s court case is coming up soon. He spanked a 12 year old girl as part of church counselling sessions. The poor girl had to put up with more than one abuser.
Article From the Chicago Sun-Times, USA, May 17, 2006
This is the first time I heard of this happening in a “black church”. I am black and have gone to church all my life and this whole incident is horrible. It is not welcomed and it’s sad that it gets labeled with the so-called “black church”. I wish race wasn’t an issue with the members in the Body, but sometimes it is. It’s good to have the Lord’s love.
Natasha
Natasha: I was not labelling this practice ‘black church’ exclusively - it happens in all types of churches of all colors and races. However, I think this beating belief regarding exorcism is particularly prevalent in some certain sectors of the black church (but not exclusively) - perhaps because of ancient tribal beliefs from Africa which beat demons out of people. I have seen this consistently over the years in the black churches I have been to in the West (but not all are so extreme and not all believe this). I know this belief is also prevalent in Asia. There are also tending to be certain other excess theologies prevalent in the black church such as an extreme prosperity gospel and a gospel of works. However, there are good ‘black’ churches also and these beliefs can also be found in the ‘white’ church.
For the record, I hate racial divisions too but any Christian of whatever colour who did not acknowledge there is a ‘black church’ with a whole sub culture of its own would not be recognising the current facts. I knew by saying what I said some politically correct people would not like it, but anyone who looks at the evidence will see I am only stating what I see and would be a coward for not saying there were i) divisions and 2) extreme theologies dominant within church sub cultures which can be classified by race. I wish it were not so also.
There are problems, unfortunately, all across the church board for all races.
Politically correct?
I only responded to what you wrote according to the manner in which you wrote it. I have been black all my life and have been in numerous churches and have yet to come close to see or hear about such practices here in the states. That’s a fact. A true fact. Coward? After seeing everything said on this site, I do not expect to see a coward, nor am I looking for a fight. And, I do not expect anyone outside of the black race to be afraid to speak their minds because someone black may get offended. If that were to happen, that would be the first. May the Lord bless you in all your endeavors.
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Be of the same mind one to another. Mind not the high things but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Natasha:
You are fortunate never to have come across this, as I have and I am in the UK which is milder that the United States in its forms of religious extremism and I have come across this behaviour in milder forms. But like I said, it is not at all exclusive to ‘black churches’ and it is the minority at that in whatever subculture and race it is found in. But it is a large enough minority to be concerned about.
BTW I was not saying about YOU being politically correct, I was speaking in general, and it was true what I was saying about people being extremely sensitive when one mentions race or culture. I was also saying I (not you) would be a coward if I did not state what I saw, afraid of and intimidated by the pc police to keep silent.
There are generalisations, however, across church subcultures. Another generalisation within the church (consistently true everywhere I have been, although everyone is unique) about slants that the church go off on is that Orientals are far more devoted to prayer and obedience, Eastern Europeans to works, the Scottish to missions, Africans to faith, and Americans to merchandising, conferences and mega churches.
I don’t think anyone would have a problem with me stating that the ‘Americans’ are merchandisers, but this is by the same form of observation as I made about the church abuse.
I see many black folk taken advantage of, pimped and abused by their own and I hate this. I am not looking for a fight either, but to state what I see is not wrong. I also speak out against the white pulpit pimps too!
You are joking, right?
I’m pretty sure that the Lord will bless the original intent of this site. Am I joking? Surely, you are unaware of American History. I did not come here to push your underlying agendas or to deal with sarcasm. I pray to depart from this in peace. Posted replies get erased and some resurface days later. I never intended to get caught up in a battle of sarcasm and intended deceit with someone I don’t know. Thank you for your integrity to do such a request. May the Lord’s peace, love, and mercy be with you.
Natasha
What on earth is that supposed to mean?! I have no ‘underlying agendas’, neither was I sarcastic to you, nor is this even a ‘battle’ (except, perhaps, to correct your misconceptions, with you only taking even more offence at what I say for nothing as you seem to misunderstand me more and more as well as my heart which has no emnity toward you whatsover, is at peace with you, and is only trying to explain what I meant to someone who misunderstands me hugely) - and as to ‘deceit’, how on earth can you even get that from what I am saying - I could not be plainer with what I am saying! That is the whole point, saying what I see regardless of the political correctness police.
I asked you if you were joking as I find it incredulous that you could honestly think that it would be a first for someone ‘outside of the black race to be afraid to speak their minds because someone black may get offended.’ Do you honestly really think that, Natasha, because I find that incredible someone genuinely believes this if so?
BTW, posted replies never ‘get erased to later reappear’, they are moderated which means they appear live only after moderation which can take some hours or even a day or so.
My comments are missing sentences. Please,remove my replies from this site. Thank you.
Natasha
If you want to correct anything you said then go ahead here, but I am not going to delete an entire conversation from this site because you do not like the way it turned out.
A man’s pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
Natasha: I do not understand your problem or why you are attacking me and my character calling me things and calling yourself righteous when all I have done is tried to have a discussion/answer the points YOU made. It kind of underlines the original point I made also about people’s reactions. You misunderstand me so badly it is untrue. Why insist any forum delete an entire discussion thread because you do not like where it is going when your points are answered - that is silly, immature and petulant. Neither life or boards work like that. Anyway, this conversation is sadly closed with you.
What is going on? Can none of our “shepherds” endure in the truth? The Lord spent 7 years showing me what was going on behind the scenes in churches and TV ministries. He had told me this evil is going on in every Christian ministry, without exception. Having the lesson spread over a long period, it really didn’t hit me until reading all the blogs about many of them on this site. I had seen most of them started out sincere, and only in time did they diverge from the truth.
A quote from my book: “We have seen all too many ministries that started out well, spending given money with great care. But in time, like Balaam before them, they have searched out ways to get around what they before knew was right. They now seek earthly treasures rather than laying up treasures in Heaven waiting for them.”
My lessons began at the home Vineyard Church in 1992, under John Wimber. God showed me what was going on behind the scenes there, to my dismay. In time, He showed me to cry out to them about it. There are always “nuts” who make pests of themselves in churches, and I was counted as one of them. Of course, in time I was put on trial there on lies and was put on probation, and my ministries there were cut off. They found out it was lies within an hour after my trial, but never lifted the penalties, nor did they clear my name to others who knew about the accusations.
I’m sure they thought I would leave, but I stayed as a thorn in their side for several years after that. I watched the church slide deeper and deeper from their original purpose.
After their great fall from grace and John’s death, I was called in to talk to the now pastor, who said he thought God was telling him to talk to me. I warned him of what had been going on and that he would not be able to raise the church back up until all the pastors and leaders repented. A few weeks later in the middle of his sermon, I saw him set his face like flint and declare he would listen to no man telling him what to do.
They boast of having the prophetic in that church. But the only ones they let speak are the ones who tell us how greatly we are pleasing God. They call this, “Edifying the church.” Somehow, they think they are above needing a prophet to come to them with correction words.
Over the last few years, some have told me revival has come again there, several times. But it hasn’t, and they won’t have a revival caused by the Lord without real repentance. The crowds are diminished, and people come and leave. The same sermons have been heard many times, with the only fresh thing being the newer jokes they tell in them.
If the conversation is closed then “Praise God”. I ended it a long time ago (more than a week ago in the “missing threads”
and you kept pursuing me. I wasn’t interested in further conversation. It is wasteless to go back and forth about what happens in the USA with someone who is not from here. I like truth. If I think there is a lie in it, I do not want to waste my time. If not wanting to be in a lie, immature and silly, then here it is. I call it integrity. And, I don’t want to be pursued after the fact. I tried to leave in peace. This whole thing is about you being “right”. Your original point, other peoples’s actions. Guess what. Like you told me. Reactions come with life and the boards.I don’t consider nagging someone, clearing up a misunderstanding. This is why men prefer to sleep on a roof top. Let all the world know that “you” are right and that there is no error on this site (at least not from you). Errors are for the other humans. And, why did I insist you delete it? I don’t want to be a part of a lie. And, you’ve deleted things many times before. If you want a circus on this thread. You have it. May the saints of God have fun reading it or anyone who stops here by some chance, hoping to find God. Maybe this will lead them to God (or maybe it will somehow get erased). “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
The Lord rebuke you Natasha, you obviously have problems, get yourself some help on this, not to mention a reality check….all this for what? Nothing. Crazy. I have never deleted anything you said or even edited it, apart from delete a repeat request from you to delete the entire discussion. Nothing else is missing or has been deleted - what a liar you are, not to mention a super spiritual hypocrit. Stop quoting scripture to insult and get yourself some actual integrity and instead of how talking about how integral you are, be it!
This is not at all to do with me being ‘right’, it is to do with having a discussion and clearing up your obvious and clear misunderstanding about what I said which is what blogs are supposed to be about - having a conversation, and nicely at that. But apparently only you are allowed to post your thoughts and nobody is allowed to say you are making claims that the majority would think frankly absurd. I honestly did think you were joking as it was so absurd, but apparently you are perhaps as blind, blinkered and prejudiced as it seems.
And btw, so what if I am not originally from the USA. I have been there. And doesn’t your ‘rascist’ claim make you discriminatory too implying the English must be ignorant by default? And this was not a discussion about the American church anyway.
David: ah don’t get me started on Anaheim! I was badly treated by two prominent people in leadership there (not Wimber) who were not only unkind but highly unfair and rude and far from gracious.
I expected to see a long flow of lines when I came back here. Too bad, I’m not reading it. You are easily read. I’m sure it’s more of your pollution. Bait someone else. I’m sure you want to have the last word. It is your personality, you will have to present yourself as right, as usual, and how much you know or can “judge”. You will be judged according to the same way you judge others(or the entire kingdom on this site). You cannot keep spitting this filth out your mouth and claim that you have no error in how you dismantle members of the Body of Christ on this site. Your integrity should be at a higher level. I’m sure if someone looked through your house with a fresh pair of eyes, they would see alot of control, manipulation, nagging, deception, and beat down family members (the same you accuse the church of). There is no way someone filled with so much negativity can be happy. You must be pretty angry.Maybe they will see an extra “hobby” house in the back yard full of ear plugs. Surely, they can never get a word into you. Let’s make a truce. You can spit all of your filth after I’m gone. Let someone else read it. I’ll continue to go on doing fruitful things with my life, while you release enough negative energy to keep you typing for days on this thread. Good agreement. From this moment, you are ignored. Have fun.
LOL, that’s typical of Vineyard to disuade a true prophet from speaking out. I watched John when someone would try to speak a warning. He would send his assistant to their seat to tell them to never speak things like that unless the prophesy was cleared thru John first. Then when that aasistant became the head pastor, he did the same.
My time at the Vineyard was awesome. It began with my having such a close realationship with God. As I saw the behind the scenes stuff, I kept my relationship with God, and did not allow the leaders there to shove their way between God and me. Praise God, He wanted me to see how “Christianity” really works in churches. He made sure I also saw such in other ministries.
The controlling spirit is strong there. Several times, I saw a vision of something hovering over the Vineyard. It was like a dome, but I kept hearing, “cloud.” I was unsure of what the dome was until another and I were interceeding one day, and when we asked God to take out whoever was in His way at that church. Then I saw a long neck with a dragon head reaching out of the cloud to where we were interceeding. It was furious.
The next Sunday, we were informed the head pastor had resigned, having been found in deep sin. But no real improvement came with the next pastor. The controlling spirit remained. Sad.
Getting back to this particular church and it’s belief that autism is demon possession. I was once told by a youth pastor that all seizures are manifesting demons.
What can I say? False and ignorant teaching brings this stuff about. These crazy hypercharismatic churches, who believe if you have a cold or you sneeze you are being attacked by satan, will continue to cause shipwrecked faith and other damage.
This is a very sad story but all to common. I live near a
shopping center that has 3 storefront churches in them. I wouldn’t step foot in there cause anyone can can appoint themselves as a pastor, teacher, elder. ETC. I like how everyone is either a self appointed Bishop, Apostle, or prophet and they have no training, no education, no valid credentials at all. I live with the agony of what this stuff does to a person’s faith everyday as I married into a family - the parents had no better judgement than to subject their kids to this kind of abuse. It is sad indeed.
Thank you Mary for pointing this out. I have a son who was diagnosed at age 3 as being autistic. One doctor told me that my son would never be anything other than what he was capable of at that time, which wasn’t much. I had seen my son’s brain scans and knew that he was created differently from you or I, but I also knew that the Lord was capable of moving a few brain cells around if He chose to. I prayed mightily and worked around the clock to help my son become more cognizant of others. His diagnosis was changed from autism to PDD, which is a very mild form of autism. He is still mildly retarded, and I have even had people tell me that “God hates a simpleton” and my son should not have been born. We’ll see on judgment day. And by the way these “words were given to me by “pastors” of storefront churches back in the day.
Ah! Demons. The most unwelcome subject in all Christiandom. Unbeknown to most, it was teaching about demons more than anything else that brot the Vineyard’s downfall. The constant attack by brethren on their teachings had an effect. They had started on a wave of wonderful worship, along with getting common people involved in ministry. Then in time, it became apparent even Christians could have demons, and not even know it.
I know, there is an immediate desire to skip the rest of this post because of its subject. The truth is, the wonderful worship at the Vineyard brot the Holy Spirit’s presence, and that sometimes caused some people to openly manifest of demons. They had no choice but to investigate this further.
First, let’s mention that demon “possession” is too strong a word. Later Bible translations properly call it, “demonization” instead. Even the demoniac was able to make his way to Jesus, wasn’t he? So even he was not possessed. People are unwilling to even consider demonization, and the devil has had his way because of this.
Now, let’s consider how much even the Scribes and Pharisees knew about demons in the NT. Where did they get that info? It wasn’t in the Torah. They did what we should be doing. They looked at the visible, since it speaks of the invisible, just as visible things speak of The Creator. We do not get all the revelation from the Bible from the start. Each era gets more, adding to what was known before. If the Bride is to become without spot or wrinkle for Jesus’ coming for her, She needs the revelation meant for her era. NOW, for time is short!
We know demons exist, but what do we think the purpose of demons is? Are we stuck on only the Biblical examples of someone demonized, and think that is the only way they work? Or do we have evidence we refuse to see, that they play a larger role in Christians’ lives?
If there was one good thing about my time at Anaheim Vineyard, it was to see the purposes of demons. I was on the deliverance team there, and we dealt with Christians who had long ongoing problems in their lives. We divided into small teams of 3, to minister to a victim. 2 of us would pray softly in tongues, while the 3rd would deal directly with the victim, questioning to see what the root of the problem was.
Often in this Holy Spirit atmosphere, we would get visions and/or words of knowledge. As we spoke those out, often, the victim would begin to manifest of demons. If you had been there, you would know that indeed, the demon’s hosts were born-again and Holy Spirit filled. And you would also know that it was a demon speaking thru them.
To make ourselves comfortable in the past, we have believed a MAN’S tradition that once we accept Jesus, any demon must depart from us, if they were there in the fisrt place. There is no place in the Bible that says a Christian cannot have both the Holy Spirit and evil spirits in them.
Some who have seen this and spoken out have been made the butts of many jokes that we see demons behind every bush. Since we see so much deception in other parts of Christianity today, perhaps we need to rethink things and see if we have been helping the devil to succeed in his wiles.
Yes, there IS Biblical evidence to consider. For example, when Peter was trying to pusuade Jesus to not go to His death, Jesus said TO PETER, “Get thee behind me, satan.” Consider also that Jesus often spoke of wickedness and evil in ALL men’s hearts. Further evidence is when Jesus and the disciples were refused entrance into a town, some of the disciples wanted to call fire down upon that town. Jesus told them they did not know what manner of spirit they were of. Luke 9:55 RSV. (Note, that verse is not in all translations.)
Another place to look is 2Cor 11:3-4. There, Paul is writing to people he knew were saved. He is warning them about recieving another spirit, brought to them by a false prophet. This spirit, in addition to the One they had received from Jesus.
Consider when Jesus came out of His wilderness temptation. He said the devil found nothing in Him. Then does that mean people who fall to temptation DO have something in them?
Jesus said He was coming after a Bride without spot or wrinkle. We have changed that to mean we will be cleansed when we see Him as He is. Have we changed the meaning of that verse? Let’s look at some logic on that:
Paul tells us we will change to be like Jesus when we see Him as He is. Now, was that about our very being, or was it about our body only? Think of this….if we had just become like Him in every way at seeing Him, then why would we still need judging, with varying rewards depending on our earthly life? It is our body which will change, but our personality will remain essentially the same, otherwise, our judgment would have no meaning.
What we fail to realize is that evil spirits have a still small voice, just as God does. These are thought transmissions from the spirit world to our minds. Each of us as adults have had those come to us, but we know to immediately change our thoughts. But children do not have this wisdom, and are vulnerable to them.
Babies are born with no wisdom, but only seek to satisfy what they want right now. Their instincts tell them to cry to get what they want. This selfishness works at first, but when they later run into discipline, they have no idea why they must now obey those huge adults. But they must, to avoid punishment.
Many events in a child’s life are traumatic. To them then, this is their whole life! Then when they go off alone to brood over it, they are open to denons’ still small voices. This reaches full speed when the child has a language. The demons don’t reveal they are the source of the info they send to the child. Instead, they speak in the “first person,” as if the child was thinking those thots himself.
The first thing they want to establish in the child is that they are unloved, otherwise they would get their way. Demons work hard to instill self-pity in this, that it is unfair to them. This forms bitterness at their helplessness, and a feeling of insignificance.
During all this, the child is taught to hate himself by the demons. Once that is there, they proceed to give them ways to feel better about themselves. This will take a long explanation, and I’ll take it up in the next post, God willing.
The whole cause of demons is to form a personality in the child. While all the above is going on, the child has been trying to find ways to still get what it wants. It will try tantrums, self-pity, and rage in this. As he finds these things meet with further discipline, he learns to act. He will feel out what works best to still get as much as he can, but to not show his real feelings as that would bring discipline. No, he does not know he is doing this. He is being led by still small voices.
Some learn to act nice, and some still are defiant to some extent, compromising only when necessary. There are many other modes between those two. This becomes the personality that will be used thru life. But it is a personality developed by demons, not God.
So when we get born-again, we learn to clean up our ACT even more. But deep within us is a root formed by demons. This is the cause of our finding ourselves always having to repent of outbursts when we come under stress.
Almost every outburst is because someone challenged our significance in one way or another. We will do anything to keep others from finding what is deep inside us, our feelings of insignificance that we developed an act to cover up as kids. We don’t even know that is why we do such, for we have forgotten how we developed our personalities, and even then, we didn’t know it was with the help of demons.
Take for example, how newly married couples relate. Soon, each will find the other challenging their significance in disagreements. We may think we are arguing about something else, but our hurt feelings (self-pity manifesting) show there is more hidden behind the argument that prevents love in dealing with it.
That leaves essentially two options. They will either divorce on incompatible grounds, or they will each learn to not cross the other’s significance boundaries. “You don’t cross my significance boundaries, and I won’t cross yours.” So the marriage becomes a compromise that can even come to look like love. But it is an armed truce they don’t even know they made.
I’ll try to go further on this theme in another post, if Miriam is OK with it. There is MUCH more, and it explains why many of our present Christian leaders have taken the path of deception they are spreading thru the sheep.
Cherly: some pastors said that God hates a simpleton? Oh that is terrible. I am not violent at all, wimpy if anything, but I’d have been hard pressed not to slap him if he said that about my children…
David: you write some interesting things and I am ok with you posting your views about anything. This is a free-for-all and I do not have to always agree with someone (as you well know) for them to post their opinions on this blog. It is about discussing things in the open that hopefully we can all learn something. Healthy discussion and debate is all good - it is Berean.
Know I did not learn most of what I write about the demonic by the teachings at Vineyard. Most came from observation of what God was showing me from many angles as I went thru fiery trials there. I also had taken people into my home. One of them had a baby while here, and I got to watch her, as well as her older siblings and their friends. But most of all was by my going thru deliverances, myself. I was delivered of self pity, bitterness, and most importantly, defiance. Defiance was the personality I had formed to get by in life while hiding my feelings of insignificance. I even felt two demons burst thru my lower chest, one of the times, in a hurry to leave.
Let’s be sure we understand how demons get into people, other than the obvious known ways. When we agree with Jesus’ truth, He comes into our heart and we are born-again. Likewise, when we listen to demons as kids and agree with them, they come into us. They put traits in us that will manifest under pressure, but they will try hard not to let you know they are within. You will be left to be angry at “the old man” in us.
Let’s again look at some of the things kids go thru as they are learning how to act. This will show why our pastors now are deceived, why they are unaware of it, and also why they cannot be shown this.
When kids are going thru childhood trauma, they must find a way to feel better about themselves rather than continually blame themselves and wallow in it. They soon see that their authorities and peers are not perfect, either. In a child’s mind, this would sound like, “If they can do wrong, then why do they pick on me?” This is the first part of self justification.
Next, they will use the “I didn’t mean to” when they do something wrong. This is not true justification, but a child will not see that and it will become well established within them. This is helped by time going by, and the problem is mostly forgotten. It becomes an automatic justification when mixed with time.
But perhaps the most important thing that kids learn is to vow to someday show all those people that “I am important, and someday they will know it.” Vows, even in a child have power, and even tho the problem is over shortly after, the vows and their goals remain within us. Note there is vengeance within those vows. It should not surprise us that satan wants us to make vows. After all, he vowed to one day ascend to the very throne of God. You did this, and so did I. It gave us a little hope for the future when it seemed there was no hope for the present. satan wants us to make vows, because he knows that someday, they will become a curse in us, and we won’t know where that curse came from.
This is shown to us in the Bible, if we are willing to see it. From the beginning in church, we are given examples of the Biblical patriarchs as heroes we should emulate. Let’s look at some of them to see if that is wise.
Joseph was ridiculed as a child, and his father didn’t like the dreams he had, either. He was sold into slavery by his brothers. Later after he became Pharoah’s right hand man and it was known a famine was coming, he caused the people to grow extra food to be stored under his supervision. when the famine came, he sold the food back to the very ones who had grown it. When they ran out of money, he took their land in trade. When their land was gone, he had them sell themselves as slaves to Pharoah and thus, slaves to himself.
God instructed Moses to speak to the rock to bring forth water for the rebellious Israelites. Instead, he struck the rock. His angry words, “Must we bring forth water from this rock?” showed that he felt his personal significance was being challenged, not God’s.
David had asked God to show him any wickedness in him. God did, but it was not yet time for it to be revealed what trials were sent to us for. So he never understood fully what God was showing him. But the record is there for us to see for our era, if we will.
It was known that when David led the army in battle, quick victory was assured because of God’s hand on him. But he took the advice of men. So when kings were supposed to go to war, King David stayed home. There, he saw Bathsheba bathing, and sent for her. When it was found she was pregnant, he schemed to make it look like it was her husband’s child. That failing, he sent Uriah, a more righteous man than he, to the front lines and had him murdered. He did not repent until confronted by the prophet, but even then, his repentance was only partial. He said he had sinned against God, and God only. He was unable to see his sin against another human.
Next, we look at 2Sam 24:1 and 1Chron 21:1 together and we see God sending the devil to entice David into counting his men, this to expose his pride of rulership. He was warned not to do this, but he did it anyway. So God sent a plague on David’s people. He repented again, but only to what was obvious in the eyes of others.
Nevertheless, God gave David mercy again and set up another trial. When the army was near defeating the enemy, his general called David to the front so he could get the glory for a victory he had no part in. God really never used him again after this, except to install his son, Solomon in as King. But see that Bathsheba had to do most of this arranging.
Then we see Solomon having a dream about asking for wisdom. Since it was only a dream, he had wisdom for others, but not for himself. He knew God had promised to not visit David’s sin on him, and that his reign was to be in peace. Yet he prepared for war, buying horses and chariots from Egypt, with whom no Israelite was to do business. He built army outposts to defend against an enemy that shoulod never come in his days. He made many of his people part time slaves to build an empire he would rule over.
Solomon unwisely married many wives and had many concubines, even tho he had written how foolish it was to have more than one woman. Many of these were from foreign countries and had foreign gods. In time, they convinced him to build high places in which they could worship their gods, right there in Jerusalem.
How could these patriarchs do this evil, even often while in a close realtionship with God? why could they not see the evil for themselves? What curse caused this blindness?
Joseph was seen being ridiculed by his brothers, and his father angrily dismissed his prophetic dreams. Moses had a speech impairment of some kind, and we know how peers tease anyone with a fault. He also had a strange childhood in Pharoah’s palace, knowing he was out of place. He did not like how his fellow Israelites were being treated and when he arose against that, he was rejected by his own people and had to flee for his life.
When the prophet came to Jesse’s house to choose the next king, David had been considered as unworthy to be among his brothers, and had been sent out to tend sheep. We later see David being ridiculed by his siblings when he brot food to them at the warfront. David preferred his evil son Absolom over Solomon,even tho he knew Solomon was to be the next king.
What can we suppose took place in the minds of those patriarchs as they grew up? Isn’t it likely they did as we did, making vows to someday “show those people” who had not seen them as significant? Now we need to see how this became a curse in their lives, and see if it has also become a curse of blindness in us.
Here, we are going to show how blind pride becomes a curse in us, setting us up for decpetion. we tend to think pride is something we can easily see, since we have all seen boastful people. But blind pride is different. Remember the vows they and we forgot we made? After they rose to high position, there came an inner self satisfaction that they had completed their vows, becoming significant. This is a hidden soul matter, so they were never consciously aware of why they felt satisfaction. They now have an arrogance, an inner feeling of superiority over all those below them. The feeling of satisfaction is mistaken for feeling God’s approval. The vows brot a curse on them of hidden insidious pride, the same kind the devil has. And they know not what they do.
You can search your own heart and not be able to see this in yourself, and that it is the cause of our not being able to love another unconditionally. In this state, our relationships depend on how others treat us.
The only way to find these things in ourselves is to submit to the Holy Spirit, and welcome the trials He will send to show us our heart. He is sent to bring all truth, isn’t He?
Yes, God sends trials to us in which others will offend us, just like when He enticed the devil to attack Job. Job had sacrificed for his children, and now those catastrophies came upon him. He felt he was righteous, and felt self-pity that God had done this to him. He was offended by God!
When we are lied about or persecuted, it is to show us our own self-righteousness by how we react. If we spend time defending ourself instead, we will not learn from it, nor will we be delivered.
When you have a demon fully exposed in how he got in and what he has caused in your life, you then confess this before another and God, and the demon will leave. He cannot stand the Light on him. You cannot leave out anything that would make you seem less guilty. Your shame must be fully exposed or no deliverance will happen.
Do not be surprised by whom the offences come. Most of mine came from being persecuted at my church by my pastors. Had I spent time defending myself against them, I would not have seen my own part of defiance.
Are you saying then that demons are the cause for all major character flaws or slips into major sin? If so, that is not what the bible teaches, it indicates that man is weak, the flesh fighting with the spirit all the time, the flesh needing to be subdued. I do believe in demons but if you blame them for all man’s weaknesses, that I think is inaccurate - but perhaps I misunderstand you?
I have heard this teaching but I do not agree. While we should confess our sins to one another that we may be healed, I do not see either the disciples or Jesus working in this way in deliverance sessions - with a word the demons fleed, there was no extensive psycho-healing trauma counselling searching for ground and roots to renounce and soul ties and family tree curses etc etc etc. I wrote more on this demonic ground in another post.
I also do not think that the patriachs were blind to their own sin even while it happened - neither are we when we do it, most of the time anyway - we are perfectly aware even while we sin it is wrong, but we succomb to the temptation because our desires of the flesh want it more at that time than obeying God, or we lose control or have not given God total Lordship etc etc. We sin because we are weak not because a demon made us do it - though in one sense (which is possibly what you mean) you could say all sin is satanically inspired as satan is the tempter and the blinder of the eyes and the accuser.
As for Joseph, the fact he was ridiculed was because people were jealous of his father’s love for him. Although he was possibly unwise sharing his dream to them, he did not respond sinfully that I can see in any of his dealings with his brothers, and he is an example of a wise and faithful servant under many trials and abuses while in Egypt. In many ways he is a type for the church which is jealousy attacked because of their father’s great love for them and his obvious favouritism. God was with Joseph and it was God’s way for the grain to be stored and sold in that way, a necessity so that the people did not starve and Israel was saved. Joseph had to go to the land of Egypt as this is where the plentiful food would be to store because of the riches of the Nile delta, so although his brothers meant what they did to him for evil, God meant it for good as it achieved his purposes - mainly being that the people who would preocreate the Messiah were saved.
There is no indication Soloman did not have wisdom for himself or ’since it was only a dream, he had wisdom for others, but not for himself.’ God spoke to him and granted what He wished - wisdom. But just because one has wisdom, even fo oneself, it does not make one perfect in everything and unable to sin or to make bad choices in life. Practice what I say, not what I always do etc they say of teachers…. Anyway, Soloman was led astray by foreign wives who led him to their occultic religion and its ways. That was his main sin and fault, marrying the wives - not a making a vow to himself as a child that led to his blindness. He made a decision, he knew it was wrong, but he excused it, thought it would be ok and he suffered.
>>When we are lied about or persecuted, it is to show us our own self-righteousness by how we react.
Though self righteousness can manifest (and other faults and bad attitudes during trials), the bible does not say that persecution comes because one is imperfect - quite the opposite, look at Christ who was persecuted and ridiculed and the millions of martyrs over the centuries including most of the apostles…..there are terrible stories coming out of Rome of the tortures that the early church underwent - but persecution will happen if you are living for God. That is what Revelation teaches us. Not that we can escape persecution, but when it happens to stay steadfast and faithful, and look for the rider on the white horse who is faithful and true and is coming in the clouds …. revelation is about being an overcomer of adversity not an avoider of it.
Cheryl, I read your comments about your autistic son. I have a daughter with ADHD, and too often in the charismatic movement, people are made to feel like all of their problems revolve around demons. Then there is the whole “word-faith” thing, if I don’t talk about it, it won’t be able to take ahold of my child and it really isn’t there. It finally got to the point with us that God told me it was OK to talk about it, and just maybe it might help someone else going through the same struggles. I am working on getting a prayer/support group going for those with special needs children, because, to be quite honest, I have seen a real lack of support in the charismatic community for those who are different or have those types of issues. The intent of it is to build one another up with encouragement and pray for one another, and also to have a safe place to talk about it where those who have these special needs don’t feel judged. It took me a long time and much much prayer, because I fell into the trap of believing it was all demonic, to realize that God’s answer for us was not necessarily what other believers would have advised us to do. I have openly talked about it, and still I can tell it makes other people feel uncomfortable, but this is real life. People who don’t have children who have these issues do not always understand or have compassion for those who do. I still pray that God would heal her, and now there is new evidence that suggests that some of these children can outgrow this eventually, and that it has to do with their brains developing at different paces than other children. Cheryl, thank you for sharing your story, it is encouraging to me to hear what you have to say and your experiences with your son. May God grant wisdom to the doctors treating your son, and may God lift you up and bring you comfort, and may God continue His healing touch in your son. God bless!
David: I so very much agree with what you are saying! I have personally experienced some of what you are talking about. After being ministered to by a deliverance team myself, I can say without a doubt that it makes a huge difference in the way I am tempted. No, Miriam, demons aren’t the cause for all major character flaws or slips into major sin. People make those choices. I think they make those choices from listening to and being in agreement with demonic voices. Deliverance makes the difference in where the voices come from. You CAN live more victoriously. For example: It used to be that when I was angry at someone, I would hear a tirade against that person in my head. I never dreamed that it wasn’t really me thinking that, I thought I owned those thoughts. I never even knew I didn’t have to take them into myself, and agree. But now that I have had some demonic influences cast out of me I can recognize their foul voices from outside my head. It’s not like they leave you alone, but it’s more like the voices aren’t a part of me now. Now I can resist the devil and PRAISE GOD! He does have to flee from me. I just say “I will not listen to you resentment! In the name of Jesus get away from me.” Instantly the thoughts go away. Resentment and bitterness were the two biggies for me. The desire for revenge is also a nasty motivator. God specifically says that vengeance is His.
I urge everyone reading this to examine your thoughts carefully. What do you think when folks offend you and step on your toes? If your thoughts do not have the proper attitude, ask God to help you identify and cast away from you that wrong thinking. We DO have the power to do this since Jesus has authority over everything in heaven.
Karina: I know what you are saying - I am just clarifying what was actually said here, not just for me but for people reading this on this blog who may not have had prior background/knowledge in this field so may easily misunderstand what is actually meant, so do not think my ‘objections’ here are directed at you, as I am sure you do not think all the ways I list as below, but many do to differing degrees.
There are many misunderstandings afoot about demonology - as C S Lewis said, people either do not believe in the devil or they see him everywhere, two equal mistakes the devil is delighted at.
Some people blame the devil and demons for making them do things without taking responsibility for their own mistakes/sin. I remember hearing of a minister trying to cast a ‘demon of cream cakes’ out of an obese lady for example!!! Perhaps the ministry session should have more focussed on repentence for gluttony, passivity, denial and praying for the spirit of self control, (as well as wisdom and discernment for the minister), otherwise this lady would just continually ignore all of her responsibility or blamed it on something else like her glands instead - anything but herself and the lusts of her flesh which she loved more than God (NB there are genetic obesity problems or metabolic disorders as well as food addictions, obese people are not ALL lazy and greedy, but that is another issue - I am referring to a specific instance where the case was obviously overeating and a lack of self control). Likewise Bishop Thomas Weeks after the alleged wife battering episode in the carpark blamed the devil for his woes. Why not blame either himself or his wife for the lack of control and/or lies and libel?
You are absolutely right that we can ‘take every thought captive’ and tear down mental strongholds that oppose against Christ. However guarding our thoughts and rebuking sinful thoughts (which ARE temptations from the evil one) is not the same at all as being ‘demonised’. There is a differance between an evil unclean entitity giving a thought to a person and from being demonised with it. Christ clearly saw this differance in his teaching and ministry, and He was also tempted in every way, yet he was without sin - he was not demonised, it would be blasphemy to say he was.
True spiritual warfare is recognising the flesh is weak but yielding to the Father in obedience and walking in the spirit instead.
Thank you for your response. Perhaps my trying to rewrite my whole book in a short blog made it less understandable. My main point is that when we are very young, we are vulnerable to demon influence by their still small voices. They thus give us a bent toward solving all our future stresses in the wrong way, and we would be fully unaware of this. This would form our personalities and it would seem natural to us, even after we are born-again and filled with the Spirit. The demons would not likely ever have to tell us what to do again, as our bent would be our guide, and we would not know the root of it was demonic influence.
I was not talking about sin, as much as about iniquity. Sin and iniquity are mentioned in Ex34:9 with, “and” between them, indicating they are two different things. The two words are also used in other verses, indicating that iniquity was the cause of the sin. This says to me that something is behind our sin, and we need to know more about that. Until we eliminate our iniquity, we can only obey the Law to at least look like we are Christians, and we do this while claiming we are free from the Law.?? Many do not see this double-think.
My thinking is that what we took in from demons in our youth formed our iniquity, and this is another word for, “our flesh.” I tried to show in the blog that this iniquity was hidden even in our Bible patriarchs. And that this is a record for us to see for revelation needed by the Bride in these end of days. Look how often in your walk you have read a verse and “Bingo,” it had a meaning you never saw in the many times you read it before.
Yes, the story of Joseph was a wonderful example of God’s faithfulness to complete what He had prophesied to the young Joseph. But even so, it did not mean Joseph was without iniquity, as we can also see in others that God used to fulfil His long term will.
So yes, the flesh is weak, but I’m trying to point out just where this weakness came from. The Bride must see these things so she can be delivered of iniquity and become without spot or wrinkle for His coming for her.
Long ago, I was walking across my workplace and thinking about the pyramids the Israelites were forced to work on. I “saw” (in a vision,)the missing capstone on the one pyramid we often see in documentaries. I wondered to myself if this was left uncapped as a message that the Israelites were yet without their “Capstone?” (Another word for Cornerstone.) Immediately, the Lord said, “Watch this!”
I saw a vision of a pyramid made of many stones. Then I saw a red line going from one stone to another. I “knew” each stone represented a Bible verse. One by one, the red line went to other verses until I realized His message was that every verse is to be understood in the light of every other verse. The whole pyramid had become red.
Since that time, I was able to connect many verses to see that they indeed had more meaning when joined with others. I don’t have to strive to remember them, it “just happens.” I am a victim of ADD from my childhood, and have struggled all my life to remember things. It is by His Holy spirit that I make any progress at all.
Nor do I see anything in the Bible about the disciples using this type of delivery from shame iniquity. I only know that when we confessed our sins (and iniquity) to another in front of God, we got delivered of demons. We learned not to try this until we had seen all the things the Holy Spirit brot to our minds about our childhood on a given subject. We could see our sins, as they are visible.
But the Holy Spirit was needed to show us WHY we sinned by bringing up long forgotten memories of our childhood. We saw how we were duped by demons during traumatic moments back then, and how this had affected our personalities, how we related with others and God. Only when we saw the details did we confess these things and get a deliverance.
We did not form a cult around this. But 3 of us walked VERY close to God, and saw His hand leading us to find this information. I don’t find it unbiblical at all, even if it is not spelled out specifically in the Bible. But it is certainly there in the Bible if one wants to see it and be delivered. It takes seeing a larger picture of God’s purpose, rather than listening to a man teaching us the law, because he sees that it at least does some good in our controlling sin in our lives.
When I mentioned in the above blogs that the Holy Spirit brot up forgotten memories from my childhood, perhaps it needs some explanation. My first deliverance was from self-pity, which I thot I’d already dealt with. It took a year for me to see all He was showing me on it before I could be delivered. Other deliverances followed, and I learned how to look for things to ponder.
My last deliverance was from the spirit of defiance, and it only took about 2 weeks from when I knew who the spirit was to where I sent it away. I had to learn to co-operate with the Holy Spirit as He showed me details I needed to know. Let’s give some details of how that last deliverance came about:
One of the pastors who had persecuted me handed me a booklet to read on “Defiance.” I had learned to listen, even if the message came from an enemy. After reading it, I saw many things in movies, Tv shows, sermons, etc; that talked about defiance. MANY!!!
Added to this was memories from my childhood, such as: I was about 15 yrs old and at a contest, and a friend came to ask me to help him argue against a judge’s decision. I told him I hadn’t even seen the event. He told me that didn’t matter, as I could argue anything and win. Ouch!
Once I was in worship at a meeting, and saw a vision of myself as a child in clothes I’d forgotten I’d worn back then. I was probably about 10 in the vision. I was standing in a stance that showed I was ready to fight, fists clenched and legs spread and leaning forward. My face was ugly with anger. Then I heard my dad’s voice in the vision. He said, Banty Rooster!”
I had forgotten he used to call me that when I stood up to them as a kid. If you are familiar with bantam roosters, you will know that these small roosters will defy anything that comes against them, no matter how big.
One day my car broke down hundreds of miles from my home. There was an off ramp handy, and I took it to take my car in for repair. It “just happened” to be in the little town I had been born in so many years ago. As I walked to a restaurant while waiting, I passed the town’s small park. Seeing it brot up memories. I saw the tall trees there, and then realized why I’d always felt deja-vu when I looked up from under tall trees. I realized that was where my folks had taken me on Sundays as a baby, and laid me on the ground there while they visited with others. From this, I suspected they had never held me if they didn’t have to. When I got home, I discreetly asked my folks about that park and indeed, found what I suspected was true.
I remembered needing to be loved so badly as a child, and tried to sit close to my mom on the couch. She would just move further away. I remember my dad sitting with a newspaper in his face, and we weren’t to bother him. He had seen how violent he could be when disciplining my older siblings, so he kept himself aloof from us by the time I came along. I saw I had made a vow that “if nobody was going to love me, I would love nobody.”
I remembered being in grammar school, writing on the blackboard. The teacher was standing with visiting dignitaries that day. I heard her say, “David! Our very best speller. You misspelled, Des Moines.” I now realized that this was the only time of my childhood I had been affirmed, even if it came with criticism.
There were many other details I saw as the Holy Spirit brot them up to me. From all these I saw that all my relationships had been affected by my earlier vow, and that I gave love grudgingly, if at all. I had put a wall up between myself and others, and they had to meet my qualifications, or I would put in a small hint that they came up short. I saw that these “hints” were something I’d say that had a hidden accusation in them, and that if the other reacted, it would prove the accusation was right. I was very skilled at this, being helped with the cleverness of demons. (Since being delivered of that demon of defiance, I cannot even come close to doing that anymore.)
I had been writing letters to the church pastors as God had directed me to, telling them what God was showing me was going on behind the scenes at this church. This was why they lept at the chance when somebody told them a lie about me, and they persecuted me and put me on trial there.
After that trial, all the info about my defiance had come. Now, I knew that in my letters, I had sent a subtle spirit of defiance accompanying them. I was devastated to see this truth about myself. It was hard to do what I knew I had to. I went to the two pastors that had judged me in my trial, and in tears, confessed the defiance spirit I’d had. I knew I could not tell them that the letters were still right regardless, as this would void the deliverance. I also knew they would just be affirmed in their opinion of me as a “nut” and troublemaker.
Yes, I was delivered of that demon, and my life has never been the same since. I know that when we come to the Lord, He begins showing us our sin so we can clean those up. But I don’t believe he shows us our iniquity outright, the same way He shows us our sin. He wants us to discover this for ourselves, otherwise we would try to use the Law to not show iniquity, and use of the Law is a work of the flesh. But He certainly sends the Holy Spirit to show us our iniquity in small hint-byts, so we can identify it ourselves. The Holy Spirit was sent to bring us all truth, even things in us we don’t know are there.
Demon of Cream cakes!!! oh you got me laughing Miriam. That is hilarious. I think then that I have the demon of chocolate.
Just an encouragement to Cheryl and Momma. The first pastor in the church where I becme a believer had a son born with down syndrome. The love they had for him was truly inspiring. He was precious. And as he grew up we often forgot he had down syndrome. He was just himself and he became highly functional. Don’t give up hope. A loving Christian home can have such an impact. And it can show the world what God can do in contrast to the world which would say that child is a deficit, he’s useless.
Just sitting here waiting for an important phone call, and thinking on what we have been posting about. Miriam, I have read many blogs on this site and find your advice coming from wisdom learned in lessons from God. I see that when you deal with some, you tread very softly in telling them they yet have some of out modern day preaching getting in the way of them understanding a Godly point of view.
Likewise, I hope you will react in what I write here as you hope others will when you tell them something they might not want to hear. When I was commenting on Joseph’s (and others) iniquity, I prefaced it with a statement that we have been taught all our lives to see them as heroes. That teaching might get in the way of seeing something else in the Bible that we might not have noticed.
I believe the Word is inspired by God, and that nothing is put in it without a purpose. Why then does it tell us about HOW Joseph carried out his saving the people from famine? Yes, it accomplished God’s plan, but why was it necessary for him to take their money for the food they had grown? Why was it necessary for him to take their land for that food? Why was it necessary for him to cause the people to become slaves to the Pharoah and himself, for the food they had grown?
If this was not the case, the Bible would have simply told us that he doled out the food wisely, and the people fared well during the famine. But God did show us something else, didn’t He?
What my blogs have been about is that what we see today’s prosperity teachers do, was also done way back in history. and this, by God’s people. Only now do we see such great apostasy as a result. But the info was there in the Bible, all along. I also tried to show what God has shown me, that we have a bent in us from childhood demonic influence, and that somewhere along the line, many step over the righteous boundaries and take advantage of the sheep. And while doing this, they think we are doing God’s will.
This is why I keep repeating this: “They know not what they do!”
I agree the Patriachs were not always right, the Bible is very honest about their flaws, but I honestly do not think Joseph was wrong to act as he did in Egypt - I think he was wise.
David L.Williams
When it comes to demons, we face a bunch of problems:
the scripture do not teach about them much, so where do we get our knowledge ?
demonic doctrins, as the Apostle Paul calls them, based on
the truth of the true bible ?
Joseph to my understanding is a foreshadow of the Messiah,
his brothers are Israel, Jesus was in Egypt too, rejected,
to mention only a few similarities that come into my mind now.
Coming out of Egypt and the 40 years in the desert are a foreshadow of deliverance and how difficult it is for those that escaped the slavery of sin to finally come to the fullfilment of God’s promise.
Assumed, you are right about demons influencing children
(Derek Prince teaches, that they do it mostly before the age of 8 ) I would suggest to add the condition of sin as a ground of demonic access. If not, you would not only make weird speculations about Joseph.
I am bringing up seven children from five to eighteen years old, so I might have some experiences.
None of them ever heard demonic or other voices, as far as they are able to report, none of them feels to have a “stranger” inside…or saw anything demonic.
But, during the years, each child sometimes acted very strange, mostly when confronted with prayer, singing or bible reading, probably to disturb, prevent or annoying the others. The way, how the parents react, makes a huge difference. We finally learned to pray over them and rebuke the unclean spirit.
I tend to believe that every sinner is more or less under demonic influence (or even possessed by) and as long as someone do not put them in danger to be exposed, the spirits are rather comfortable, serving the flesh and desires of their hosts. Every man is born with sinful nature, sin is the open door in the house.(Math 12,45)
I tend to believe that Chrisians are demonized, the more they deny the possibility of it.
How could the Spirit of God live in the same body with demons ? The temple of the Holy Spirit ? Compared with the
Temple in Jerusalem , there is an outer court, open to foreigners, courts for…and the holy of holiest, where only the highpriest can enter. Jesus, the Highpriest.
Demons in the outer courts, why not.
I am afraid, in many so-called christians do not dwell but
unclean spirits.
My husband and I have been attending a Nigerian deliverance church for approximately one year, where we saw strange manifestations of demons from people who were mostly brought up in witchcraft and voodoo.
From what we watched and heard, we assume, that the deliverance ministers are duped by the demons they are dealing with.
Mark 16,17
We can hardly ignore Jesus’ last order, can’t we ?
But as far as I am concerned, I mostly experienced the
extreme positions, driving out everything (Christmas spirits) or denying every demonic influence, both I consider to be greatly demonized…
1arabella,
I’m curious as to how you approached prayer with your children:
“The way, how the parents react, makes a huge difference. We finally learned to pray over them and rebuke the unclean spirit.”
For months now I had some behavioral problems with my daughter. She is 6 and was choosing to not listen, be disrespectful, steal, and just plain act like a spoiled brat. No amount of discipline seemed to derail her, she was the best P.O.W ever.
Anyways, I had become so fed up with her behavior and another day of teachers clamoring to tell me of all her horrible exploits that I finally rolled off “The Lord rebuke you” to her and you know what, I started to see a difference in her wanting to try to listen and make better choices.
I make it a point to pray with her every night, have her read her bible, and keep her in Sunday School and Awanas now and seem to have seen a big improvement.
What do you suggest for prayer with little ones so I can keep her on course for God?
Hi, 1arabella..I have just a few moments break from my work, so thot I’d respond to your post now, then Miriams later when i have more time. If you can see the possibility that Christians are demonized, you have had revelation that comes from God, because this goes against almost all our teachings in churches.
However, I think you missed one point about how little ones hear from demons. Demons, like God, have still small voices that come to us as a thot. They don’t identify themselves, but instead fool the child into thinking he was thinking his own thot. Usually, this is started by making them think they are being treated unfairly. They don’t say, “You are being treated unfairly.” No, they say, “I am being treated unfairly.” And the kid thinks he thot this himself. He will never have reason to doubt this came from his own thots, and can honestly say he doesn’t think he heard demons talking to him.
That opens the door to much more “thinking” thots from demons. I described those above in former posts. Once these are in place in our foundational knowledge, they stay for life, unless we find out the truth and send the demons away. Their foundation in us is part of our “Flesh” and can’t be fought by the Law, for the Law requires fighting agsainst the flesh. This is about spiritual warfare against evil and darkness in high places within us, and can only be fought in the Spirit. These are the strongholds within us that we must tear down as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us.
Otherwise, we will never know why we do things we had not ought to do, including why our TV preachers cannot see they have strayed from the true Gospel,no matter how many times they are shown the truth.
Thanks, 1arabella, gotta git back to work. Dave
I know this subject is hard to grasp. Many cannot keep the earlier parts in mind when considering the end parts. This lets them make an argument against each, while not seeing that several parts must be considered at the same time. Again, my point is that today’s preachers made vows as kids to “Someday I’ll show those people I’m significant.” They did this as we all did as kids. They don’t realize these vows never die, but remain as a force, and they do not see that their success is partly a result of their vows, not only from their call from God. In this, they think they are seeking first the Kingdom of God and His rightiousness. But they don’t know they partly seek their own kingdom, as well.
I never get an explanation for Joseph’s part of taking the Egyptians from freedom all the way to being his slaves. Was that part God’s will? Or do we dare say that in time, the law of sowing and reaping came into effect and under a different pharoah, the Isrealites were made slaves of the Egyptians? In any case, what could be good about his making slaves of people while he was meanwhile accomplishing God’s will otherwise?
What I’m trying to show is that the vows eventually cause people to “be in charge,” even as our present day preachers use a controlling spirit to dominate people “under” him. They have accomplished their vows while at the same time, built a ministry. (one that has leaven in it.)
They feel an inner satisfaction of accomplishing their vows and they mistake that feeling for God’s approval. So they grow on and on til they have many followers, “slaves,” if you will. Adam was told he would one day go forth from the Garden and dominate all of the world. Unknowingly, men have changed that to dominating other people, instead.
I haven’t even got to the devil’s main weapon in these discussions, since it stalls here on demonization.
Miriam, I honor your reasons for not letting your address out, as that could be dangerous, if not just overwhelming. Here on AOL, we can add several other screen names. One could add a screen name just long enuf to get a download, and then delete that name so no one could misuse it. I would be glad (if you have that capability) to send my book online to you, then delete the screen name from my end, too.
My book lays this all out in order, and much more. It also has my testimony. I understood what you meant when you explained the “office” of the prophet, as compared to the gifts of the Spirit. I also have an office from God, tho I seldom mention it.
I’m thinking of getting off this subject so this site remains in peace, but my passion for what God has shown me has held me to it til now, at least. Love, Dave
Hi,Servant,
our children are not saved ,except one boy,8 years old. We bring them up in the fear of the Lord, teach them to keep the commandments but we avoid them to behave religious, no prayer-rituals or any form of worship, as long as they do not feel like doing it. We regularly have bible-teaching with all of them, they are free to take part, mostly all of them want. We focus on Jesus, what he did, said, how he reacted…When they face problems, pains or whatever, some come and ask for prayer, one waits, till we offer God’s help. We often see little miracles, but the miracles themself have not much convincing power for the younger ones
We are absolutely not concerned about our children, we trust Jesus to draw them.
We insist the kids being obediant in all we say and ask.
We try( which was the most difficult) to be meek and patient
and not angry, annoyed or unfair.
We are careful not to force them, or manipulate them.
When my husband and I were church-babysitters, we realized, that the most pious parents have the naughtiest kids. We watched many teenagers, who were forced to church and religious behaviour to be the most rebellious. Try to avoid that, respect that no man can believe without the grace of God, and that it is of no help to pretend faith, when there is none.
yours, A.
David,
it made me smile that you spent your lunchhour typing your response
Math 15,19
“…for out of the heart come evil thoughts…”
2 Cor 10,5
“…and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ…”
I don’t see demons there.
I never experienced my own thoughts to be demonic, not the thoughts, but certain emotions, uncontrollable affections.
1 Cor 7,30
This inconspicious advice was my key-verse not to give in
emotions, like being jealous (Jas 3,14-15) envious or to sulk and feel rejected…I was delivered from laying emphasis on my emotions, one by one through repentence and crying to the Lord, He set me free of it, they never came back. I would say, these were “my demons”.
1arabella,
Thank you for your time and advice.
I see the wisdom in your dealings with your children and I hope and pray that God will give me all the knowledge to raise his child to become the person he wants her to be and not what I want her to be.
Servant,
you are welcome
Amazing how people can actually believe that harming their child is a good idea?! Aren’t we just facilitators so that the children around us can grow up in a loving environment so they can bloom and become who they are. No matter who they are??! Wow… amazing, shocking, sad…
strange and sad. There is nothing wrong in general with praying for someone who is ill. But they also should have called 911 when he stopped breathing and administered CPR. Also, if the holy spirit is really involved with a healing, physical contact (they hit him?) is not necessary.
marianne
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/
See also http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/beating-out-the-devil/