Healings & Prophecy at Florida Revival Lakeland Outpouring Meetings with Todd Bentley
I watched Todd Bentley speak at the Lakeland Outpouring on Friday 9th May, when the ‘revival’ was meeting at the Lakeland Airfield. I watched the ’show’ for over three hours on God TV when they showed it the next day. Here a few comments on the meeting.
There was a lot of worship. Well over one hour before Todd Bentley began to speak. I have nothing against worship, quite the opposite – obviously - BUT when worship goes on in such contexts over far too long a period, as was this case, it gets the crowd into a hyped, highly receptive and highly suggestable self induced trance state where they are less inclined to think for themselves, to question or discern things. The worship was repetitive and hypnotic, and theologically light and had a dominionist slant. In fact the worship leader, Roy Fields, said just before Todd Bentley came on that it was about ‘taking domionion, that’s what it’s all about!’
John Davenport, a preacher during the First Great Awakening, along with others like him linked to the New Lights (some of whom went way off track while all the time apparently being led by the Holy Spirit), was known for having very repetitive songs in his meetings, sometimes the same song for over forty minutes continuously. Sound familiar? – IHOP are particularly bad for this. It was remarked even at the time that this repetition was done to work the audience up for when Davenport or another preacher did start their actual ‘ministry’ time. The audience were already in a state before the preacher even started talking. Then the way he and others like him spoke - sometimes quiet, sometimes loud, sometimes almost screaming, frequently changing pace, and the way he moved his arms; by his voice and body gestures he conducted and controlled the crowd – though of course they did not realise this. His voice tone, it is recorded, was odd and unnatural but it further psychologicaly manipulated the crowd. John Davenport’s meetings had the same type of manifestations common to modern day pentecostalism and Todd Bentley – writhes and groans, holy laughter, jumping up and down, lying on the floor, screaming, leaping, ‘unusual bodily motions all in confusion and in a frenzy of excitement’, dancing in the spirit and so on. Even very young children of five years old ‘prayed perfectly’. Some even had visions (false ones – see the article on the French prophets).
So music can very much manipulate a crowd, especially repetive music, and preachers well know this, as well as know how they can conduct a crowd by their voice intonations, changes in beat and pitch, and their body language and gestures. I have remarked before on this blog how both Todd Bentley and Rodney Howard Browne (and many other such men) start manifesting when they want the crowd to manifest – such as with obviously fake laughs or other cues to get the audience clued up and start manifesting themselves: eg by saying ‘I am feeling the anointing…it is here like a wave, over there…over here….‘ Until Todd said this nobody knew and nobody manifested. But as soon as He says it they manifest on cue, wherever he points to. They want to manifest, and he has given them permission to. Listen, if the Holy Spriit were really there in the way these preachers say He is, the crowd do not need to be told this before they start manifesting. This is manipulation and the power of suggestion at work, that is what this is, and these men know it, and use it to their advantage. I am not saying that the crowd are in any ways aware of this – they are not – most are deeply sincere and are too wrapped up in themselves in their highly altered light trance state, concentrating on their feelings and experiences and staying being in a receptive and non thinking and non critical state to notice what is really going on.
Anyway, Todd Bentley finally came on stage after all this worship and began talking. In that time he did not once pick up a Bible. In that time he did not once mention scripture even loosely paraphrased (I did not need chapter and verse) – he barely mentioned Jesus and certainly did not preach on Jesus. I never heard the gospel, even done badly.
This is what he spoke on – and it was just like the many Toronto Blessing meetings I had been to where all they did was speak on the anointing and movement. (Todd, in fact, said that both the Toronto Blessing and Brownsville-Pensacola Revival were revivals – neither were revivals. He also said that he had achieved more in fifteen days than the Azusa Street Revival had done in fifteen years because of all the media. ‘This will never end!’ he said. (My note – ‘Todd, it will’ and in an unexpected way and not in the way you think)) What Todd spoke on was all about the revival, the revival this, the revival that, the media this, the media that, this is where it’s going, need to get more people to come and get some, pass it on, transferable tangible healing anointing, give a seed to God TV, the revival this, the revival that, testimonies and more testimonies of what had happened through Todd, Todd this, Todd that. Todd Todd Todd.
Then Todd said ‘No man brought me to the platform’, inferring therefore not only is he God-sent and God-ordained, but that what is happening at Lakeland must all be from God. Apart from the fact this is bad theology and not logical – for how can people like the Dalai Lama or David Icke or Peter Popoff or the Rev Moon or the Pope or other such people get their platforms – must they be ‘from God’ too because they are popular and have an audience as well? - I think Todd has also conveniently ‘forgotten’ about all the preparation, self promotion and media hype that has gone on, and the assistance of PR people like Stephen Strader, who not only proclaimed this a ‘revival’ and major event after only a few days, and rapidly created a media cicus, but who are also not adverse to lying to the media and covering things up. See here for example – http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/more-lies-cover-ups-deception-paul-cain-todd-bentley-steve-strader/
Todd Bentley is a false prophet and a false teacher who preaches a false gospel http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/todd-bentley-altar-calls-at-the-lakeland-outpouring-real-evangelism/ and leads people to accept a false second coming of Christ through Latter Rain theology – see here http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/todd-bentley-and-the-shekinah-glory-cloud/. God would not send Bentley anywhere to speak for Him, because Todd does not speak for God, in fact he leads many people astray to another Jesus. Todd Bentley is also a liar, a manipulator and a charlatan who uses cheap tricks to get money. See this post where he sells blessings for instance: http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/todd-bentley-buy-what-you-want-from-god/
This is a man manufactured revival, assisted by hype, God TV, Charisma Magazine (owned by the boyhood friend of Stephen Strader of Ignited Church) and also by demons. Has God sent it? Only in the sense that He allows great delusion because people do not love the truth and exchange the truth for a lie, which they are doing by the bucket-load. Great delusion can come with amazing signs and wonders that will decieve even the elect. Not all ‘miracles’ even if genuine, come from God. The Bible clearly underlines this. Apart from the ‘miracles’ that Pharoah’s magicians were able to do in Egypt, in the Book of Revelation the Beast and his false prophet can do amazing things, including calling down fire from heaven. But would you follow the beast? Well, evidently some will and think it to be God. Are you listening to the beast’s false prophet, for that is what this movement is - exactly - (it is the mouthpiece of the antichrist dominionist beast of the false apostles)?
How do you know if you are not following evil dressed and disguised as good? For many of you repeatedly ignore scripture and exchange the truth for the lie - just going by the signs and wonders and how it makes you feel and assumes if it feels good it must be God. Maybe your pastor and friends say it is OK – are they always right? You must test for yourself. As time goes on, the majority will take the beast’s mark and apostasise, will you apostasise because everyone else including your pastor does – will you throw away truth to be in the majority? Do you think you will know the false prophet when you see him (or ‘them’) for what they are – as agents for the evil one - because they will have horns and a forked tail and have bad breath and a cackly laugh?! Really? Do you not know false apostles and devils come disguised as angels of light and smell oh so sweet? Seduction has the best perfume.
Todd talked of a billion soul harvest in the future (classic Latter Rain/Joel’s Army theology) and boasted how many decisions for Christ he has already had over the years. Yet when there was eventually an altar call, there was no preaching of Jesus, there was no preaching of repentence, there was nothing you needed to do but come and ask Jesus into your life and get ‘it’. The same for the anointing or impartation, there was no need for repentence, consecration, dedication, obedience, commitment – there was no real reason why it was given other than to ‘get it’, or what it was to be used for other than passing it on and transferring it til it went global - Todd did not stir the people to works of service (apart from passing the anointing on) it was just come and get ‘it’ and transfer it on.
‘I feel the anointing….. I feel the Holy Spirit here……I feel the power. Can you feel it?’
‘You’ll begin to feel…’ he prompts, and then later ‘how many of you feel…‘ Then later still when recieving testimonies he repeatedly asked each one ‘Did you feel heat or burning?’ It was feel vs faith. Feeling, all sensual experiences. Tangible, feeling. Not truth. Not testing. Not reliable. Note too the power of suggestion ‘you’ll begin to feel xx…’ and suggesting specifically how this may feel via heat or burning.
When the Holy Spirit was given in the Bible, when gifts were given, it was not via a feeling – any feeling that occured was irrelevant – it was the net result, the fruit that was what counted. Jesus when ministering did not ask whether people felt anything, he asked if they could see or hear properly or asked them to rise up and walk. Although feelings and physical sensory symptoms may well have occured, they were not the focus, they were irrelevant and not what was to be testified to and not what was to be looked for and revelled in, and nor even were they the end result. The shaking or heat or whatever was not to gloried in or sought or passed on, rather it was GOD that was the focus – and what was produced afterwards, boldness for witnessing, for healing, for prophecy or tongues or whatever. However the Holy Spirit’s real fruit is not being shown in this revival, so what is really being imparted? Hot air? http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/the-anointing-of-the-spirit-and-evangelism/ Rather than fruitful things, it is the opposite with much bad fruit – false teaching, false prophecy, false manifestations, false conversion, charlatanism, lies, cover ups and a severe lack of anything biblical by action or by word. Worse still, there is the elevation of false dominionist prophets and apostles, with the literal doctrines of demons. And no doubt there is a fair amount of fleecing going on too (of the financial kind).
‘I am giving you life and hope’ said Todd. Didn’t he mean Jesus gives this?
Then Todd said some very odd things about Mother’s Day which was then a couple of days away. That coming Mother’s Day would be an anniversary of ten years of him in ministry. He claims every Mother’s Day, for the last nine years, Jesus or the ‘Angel of the Lord’ has appeared to him face to face, to mark that anniversary. (This is bad theology for several different reasons. Apart from being boastful, unlikely, and I believe yet another vain imagination and pretence of his, many theologians think the Angel of the Lord and Jesus are one and the same anyway.) Todd hyped up the coming Sunday, as he said something was bound to happen at his meeting that was particularly special as something extraordinary always has on the previous Mother’s Days.
He then said the revival had come through a woman – we have his mother to thank apparently. (Not God)
He mentioned a previous healing revival in 1998-1999 in Albany that he was involved in. His mother died of some illness on the last day of this revival, he said, at aged just 48 years old. He then claimed that his mother’s death was a ’seed’ for God. ‘Release her to me,’ Todd claims God said to him, so Todd could have great miracles and revival in his ministry. ‘Through her death, she will produce an anointing on your life’ he says God said, and said that God would ‘honour’ the sacrifice Todd made of his mother’s life through miracles and revival. So Todd did this, and his mother died, he says, on the last day of the Albany Revival. What a sacrifice! What a Saint! How altruistic and selfless! What a man!
Wow! This is probably one of the worst things I have heard Todd say and he has said a lot of flaky stuff. I mean, where do you start pointing out how this is wrong for so many reasons (even if it is true, which it is not as he contradicted himself later which I am coming to). The whole seed faith thing is wrong, and not scriptural. It is bad enough when applied to finances, but to giving up other people’s lives for them?! Since when did God ever ask anybody to sacrifice their loved one’s literal life for God’s work (Abraham and Isaac does not count, as that story was a type for the Messiah, and it was also not done for anointing or miracles.) Anointing for miracles and healings comes through the Calling of God and Recieving the Spirit and obedience and faith – none of this mumbo jumbo Todd touts! The whole ‘anointing’ thing is rubbish too as there is only one true anointing (I John), not multiple anointings.
Apart from the obvious – Todd’s mother’s life was not Todd’s to give, we also have to question Todd’s alleged God’s character who would take a lady’s life for the sake of the anointing on her son - cruel, sadistic, contradictory…. When The Bible’s God’s One and Only Son has already been given and is more than sufficient. Todd’s is far more a Catholic concept that denies the suffiency of Christ and the cross. There is only one that robs life, who seeks to kill and destroy. Is Todd claiming it is this one who is his god?
More can be said on this, but moving on to the contradiction. Some time later (maybe twenty minutes) after he said this, he was ministering to the crowd healing and was saying how you had to have positive thinking/faith. This is not exactly verbatim but is an accurate rendition of what he said: ‘My mother died because she gave up. I said ‘Mom fight’ and she said ‘no, I want to go to heaven’.…. You have to overcome in your mind’ he said. But errr… I thought his mum died because she was a seed that God demanded Todd sacrifice for the world! But not apparently now, she died because she gave up – she lacked faith and hope and was not an overcomer. Todd, like a lot of liars, forgot what he said before and glibly contradicted himself. FIRE! FIRE! Where? Your pants are on fire, Todd Bentley, you liar and deciever! Repent, I say repent, for your destruction is at hand!
Anyway, now we come to the healing testimonies. I did not watch them all as it was getting very late by that time but I watched enough of them (and I had seen others before on another night).
A lot of the reason why people come up on stage is to get prayed personally for by Todd, and/or maybe get their five minutes of fame. You’ll also get hyped up euphoric people, high as a kite on endorphins testifying truly to temporary pain relief and much more joint mobility but who are not truly healed. You’ll also get people feeling heat in their sick area or manifesting, so assuming because they felt this heat, or were slain in the spirit, they were healed. This, of course, is not true as thousands of people at healing rallies who have been slain in the spirit or manifested but were not even slightly healed will testify. You’ll then have the positive confession crowd, conditioned to testify to healing even when they are not. You’ll have psychomatic illnesses healed, there is great power in placebo. You’ll have nutcases and liars and media whores. Perhaps even plants. Most of the public there are not liars or decievers but some are. I have previously said that even if you are not healed and feel nothing, you will say you have been healed just to get prayed for, or to get more, if you are desperate enough and believe Todd to be a healer and he is your only chance. The way to get more is by testifying, so say you felt something, falsely testify and maybe you’ll get on and get personal attention from Todd. A normally honest parent with a terminally ill kid will do anything it takes to this end – and who can blame her? I do not. This reasoning was evidently the case for one gentleman who testified, who even admitted he wanted prayer from Todd again ‘to get the rest of his healing’ (meaning it all in his case as by his expression and manner he’d not gotten anything the first time around and was falsely testifying).
Many folk came on stage and were evidently still sick and crippled. You could see humps in their backs and obvious pain when walking etc. Yet they testified to being healed and went over in the Spirit again.
One man came on stage and claimed to be healed out of a wheelchair and said he had not been out of it for years. The crowd went wild. Wow. Impressive. The only thing is earlier as the camera panned the crowd, I had seen this same man standing – not realising he’d be one of the testifiers, I remembered him as he had a slightly ‘funny’ face.
One young lady who regularly cut herself claimed that she’d been healed and delivered (I think she said through the TV or internet a few days before). She was there with her dad. She claimed not only had she been instantly delivered of her demon/s (without repentence), but also her scars had miraculously gone. Wow! Quite a testimony. Todd was interviewing her and saying how great, doing his usual head shaking from side to side thing when hearing it. But then I could see clearly four horizonatal cut marks still on her arm. Even on the TV I could see it, so Todd would have seen them too even clearer as he was right there. Yet she said they had gone. And Todd kept on saying how amazing, how wonderful, even though he knew this was not true and was looking at them! He even turned around to the audience and talked on it for a little while how good it was the scars were gone. Todd often does classic liar’s body language when lying – he opens his arms out wide and some some over the top mannerisms - and so in this case, and his voice even went up at the end of the sentence (like liars’ do). A school psychology class could have a field day spotting him lying. TODD IS A LIAR AND ALLOWED LIES TO BE SPOKEN. He knew it. He allowed it. It is disgraceful. He was caught on camera. And his staff had filtered this girl through and must have seen it too. Oh, the deceit! This man and some of his staff does not fear either God or man.
Then a man came up with Parkinsons disease who claimed to be healed, and his wife said the shaking had stopped and he did a bit of walking and bending - the usual show. Yet the camera clearly showed the man’s arm and hand shaking in the ‘classic’ undeniable Parkinson’s fashion, and you can bet Todd and his staff saw it too, yet still Todd said how awesome, how amazing to be healed of Parkinsons in his over the top fashion – just the same as the girl with the cuts on her arm. Both were not healed – clearly. They are (probably) innocent of lying as they were manipulated but Todd was bearing false testimony.
Later a woman came up and said how Todd had had a vision and it was for her situation. You should have heard Todd hype it up, like wow, aren’t I fantastic to get that detailed vision, aren’t I prophetic, really going on and on about it and drawing attention to himself how wonderful he was for seeing this vision. These are not the actions of a true prophet and healer, they are the actions of a charlatan.
So in summary, false and dangeous teaching, false prophecy, false healings, false anointings, false manifestations, false spirits, false conversions, false testimonies – a real Charlatan ministering. Of the devil in several different ways. Some revival and some outpouring!
Watch out, Watch Out, there’s devils about.
I believe in real healing. I believe in real prophecy. But not through this vile man and his ministry. Lord, deal with him!
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FIRE! FIRE! Where? Your pants are on fire…
My best laugh of the day! Thanks!!
This is all so sad to me. I was a member of Carpenter’s Home Church (the Strader’s church) back when the Rodney Howard-Browne revival occurred. At the time, I was a teenager and I thought it was all very weird. Unfortunately, experiencing that at a pivotal point in my life really did not do me any good and I learned to become very cynical about church and Christianity. (Not to mention my parents were in the ministry and they obviously did not have great discernment to be subjecting their kids to that nonsense.) Fast forward to now, and it’s like reliving it all over again! Some of my family has attended the meetings and I have attempted to warn them about this false prophet and this false movement, but have not succeeded. My father is constantly watching it on-line even though I have forwarded him several links from this charlatan’s own website regarding his heretical beliefs. Specifically, about the “ascending into heaven” and listening to Paul tell him that Abraham and he co-authored the book of Hebrews and his visions of this “angel” called Emma. Scary junk! Sadly, my father is a minister and is being deceived and inviting others to become a part of the “revival”. My mother just told him that she feels he is supposed to go and be a part of it! Oh, my Father in Heaven, I pray that you open their spiritual eyes! My father feels that because this man is being supported by the Strader’s (our old pastors) and Rick Joyner, that he must be from God and refuses to believe what I have told him! Does anyone have any other ideas??? I am so saddened by the thought that my family could be led astray by these false teachings…
Miriam,
I watched the very same thing that night and couldn’t believe what I was hearing especially when he said about his mother being a “sacrifice”. He said that because of his (TB’s) “sacrifice” Jesus had told him He would be releasing a special healing anointing through TB relating to the conditions his monther suffered from – one of them being deafness. He never mentioned the words “sin” and “repentance”. I actually felt physically sick after listening to this rubbish.
Why are people believing this tosh? Well, I’m certainly no theologian but I believe it’s because for years and years the Word of God has not been preached in our churches. The flock have been spoon-fed by personality preachers who have put their own “spin” on the Gospel. This is not a sudden apostasy, this is the result of possibly generations of another gospel being preached and boy are we reaping it in spades. Unfortunately I also believe it is going to get much, much worse and the ones I despair for most are the lovely, beautiful, innocent children that are being abused (yes, I do mean abused) in this “revival”. I have many thoughts about the man TB but they are probably not appropriate for this forum.
Thank you Miriam for your fantastic work here on this site. God bless you.
Come quickly Lord Jesus!
Oh yes, Miriam, I forgot to add, he also said something like (I just can’t remember the words exactly) “through TV and satellite we can meet the prince of the air”.
Now, isn’t that interesting?
The Lord promised us that there would be false prophets and teachers in the last days. (I am not now saying that Bentley et al are false … I am simply speaking about the promise of the future that Jesus gave) This promise of Jesus no one who claims faith in the Lord Jesus Christ can deny.
The real question is how do we discern the false and the true?
It’s about trust, isn’t it. All we can do is trust our leaders. In due course, provided we belong to fellowships that give members the authority to appoint elders and deacons, if the leaders of our fellowships get it wrong then the members should hold them to account.
We can’t hold others to account if something bad happens as a result of this or any other ‘movement’.
I am advocating personal responsibility here. Each man is accountable for each man is responsible for his own actions.
Our Father wants a real relationship, not religious rule followers.
The other question of course is why would our Heavenly Father allow even the elect to be deceived?
He wants us to grow in wisdom and maturity.
Well, just some thoughts I’ve been having.
Shalom.
Hmmm… repetitive worship is somehow wrong or bad for us?
Revelation 4:8 – “…day and night they do not cease to say, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.’”
“When worship goes on for far too long a period” you say??? I can’t think of anything more wonderful than a church meeting that actually doesn’t try to stop you from worshipping after 25 minutes. Worship that goes on and on is training for heaven!
Long periods of worship, laying hands on the sick who then recover, casting out devils… what is happening in Lakeland sounds a lot more like real Christianity to me than someone spending hours and hours posting judgements against other believers on a website. May we all examine ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith, as it is described in the New Testament.
Prayers and blessings to you, brother. You are loved and cherished in Jesus.
[...] Read these: *What a Todd Bentley Revival meeting was like: Healings & Prophecy at Florida Revival Lakeland Outpouring Meetings with Todd Bentley [...]
Pingback by To the Sheepfold or the Luau? « Wolf Tracks | May 21, 2008
Jesus I plead your blood over my sins and the sins of my nation God end abortion and send REVIVAL to AMERICA!!!
I am a pastor’s wife and my heart goes after this people that are bein deceived. My husband has been following this so called revivals and he is outraged by what they are doing and how they are manipuliting the people. We told our congregartion to stay away from this and we are working hard to let other ministers know what is happening in Florida and about the demonic manifestations that are taking place. We are praying and taking authority to brake the power of this movement. My husband is working on a document that he is planning to place on you-tube and other places to inform people about this false revival.
I think that the article you wrote is great and very informative. God Bless.
Mari
Kate:
> “through TV and satellite we can meet the prince of the air”.
Yes I heard that, and I thought at first he meant meet as in worship/accept/welcome but then some minutes later he said something else about meeting as in ‘confronting’ the evil one via the TV airwaves.
Thanks Miriam, I got that bit wrong. Apologies.
Well it certainly made me thing – what???!!!
From http://www.cc-vw.org/articles/rodney.html
Dr Gaius Davies is a Christian and consultant psychiatrist at King’s College Hospital, London. He was interviewed at the Carey Minister’s Conference in January 1995, following the showing of part of a video of Rodney Howard-Browne’s ministry. The substance of his clinical assessment of the video and of the “Toronto Blessing” were published in Reformation Today, (March/April 1995). In that interview, Dr Davies claimed,
“The video shows classic manipulation of the audience, just as at Nuremberg….The audience is repeatedly urged to suspend critical faculties and be open and receptive to a “blessing”. Meanwhile the audience itself is shouting and laughing and crying out for more. This is epidemic hysteria….This can be explained in purely psychological terms. There is no need to invoke the supernatural….The leaders are wicked men to abuse power in this way. The clearest signs of drunkenness in these meetings are that the leaders are drunk with power. There is no sign or care or concern for the people…..At HTB (Holy Trinity, Brompton) I saw individuals with a “pill rolling” action of their hands and others with serious psychological problems. These people were not being helped…They had come with real needs, but were just being manipulated.” (pp.13-15)
Omens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79UdAzllD0k&eurl=http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message541368/pg15
OK. He really said something about ‘through TV and satellite we ca meet the prince of the air?’ … and he seems a bit obsessed with fire… Hmmm. Perhaps he is quite aware who his lord truly is.
Not all of Satan’s servants working in the church are unwilling, ignorant or have been led astray — some are willing, quite mindful and happily walk in the ways of the Devil… I mean, if Satan wants to deceive GOD’s creation, many of whom trust and believe in HIM and HIS Only Begotten Son Christ Jesus… Satan’s servants have to go to churches, to ‘revivals’ and everywhere Christians gather — if GOD permits it (as he permitted the testing of Job).
Don’t think Satan is pulling one over on GOD or anything… nothing happens without the LORD’s foreknowledge. Only HE knows what HE is doing and in everything HE does there is purpose… HE wrote the plan long ago, we’re just living it… and I thank HIM for sharing a bit of the mystery with us — we know in WHOM our hope lies and the reward of the those who cling to HIM and the reward of those will refuse HIM and HIS WAY. Christ Jesus: victorous; Satan: defeated already.
Please pray for the people in Cedar Rapids/Marion Iowa this week at an event called GodStock hosted by Windandfire ministries. http://www.windandfire.org/
May 21-24
Title on Danny Styne’s myspace site:http://www.myspace.com/54388311
“back from Lakeland with FIRE… spilling fire in Iowa at GODSTOCK … for the simple purpose of INFECTING EVERYONE!”
Jeff Jansen, Rob Deluca, Paul Cain, Randy DeMain, Ric Lumbard, Bidal Torrez Danny Styne and Geogian Banov are the guest speakers!
Cedar Rapids is already known for harboring the infamous dominionist Kansas City ‘prophet’ and close friend of Bickle, Cain and Joyner – Francis Frangipane and his fairly large and tenuous collection of tag along ministers from other seduced CR charismatic churches. Please pray! There are alot of unknowing and good people getting ‘caught’ up in this spiritual addiction of power, glory, signs and wonders movement. Many are ministers! Most are young.
Miriam,
I am finding your website very informative, very provocative, and very disturbing. I appreciate the sheer volume you publish every day. I have a couple of questions, though. Can you clarify the bit about Derek Prince? Did someone seance him to talk with him or is this a published discussion held before he died? If the former, how is that correct? Also, I read something yesterday, a note you made, that said to Todd that his end would be unexpected and something else, quick? I don’t remember, but at the time I wondered if you had something prophetic in mind there or if you were just warning him of the inevitable judgment that is coming to us all?
I must say, all this is very disturbing to me. I have been to MorningStar Conferences, I have friends who are part of the IHOP ministry, I have friends who are whooping up the healings they have received watching Lakeland on TV and who are very probably packing for Lakeland as I type this. I sat for two and a half years (about three years ago) under the teaching of a man who was very much pro-Latter Rain, William Branham, Manchild Church. I had no idea of any of this. I had never before even heard of William Branham. I must admit, until this revival and all the stuff I’ve been reading on the internet, I would have been clueless about this whole side of the argument, and I can honestly say that it has driven me to prayer more than anything ever has. I don’t know if this has any bearing or not, but I have been drawn back to it more and more recently:
‘Solemn Prophetic Warnings’
By Stanley Frodsham
1965 Elim Campmeeting
“With great judgments will I plead with the population of this country. Great darkness is coming upon those countries that have heard My Gospel but no longer walk in it. My wrath shall come upon them. The darkness shall be so great, and the anguish so sore that men will cry out for death and shall not find it. There shall be a lingering death, and famine and great catastrophes.
My wrath shall be manifest against all ungodliness. It shall come with great intensity. You have known My love, but have not known My wrath, My severity. My judgments are literal, not a thing to be lightly passed over. Realize the severity of My judgments and My intense anger against the sin in My household. My judgments shall begin in My house, for I will cleanse My house that it not be a partaker of My wrath against the iniquities of the cities. Before I visit the nations in judgement I will begin at My house. When I do cause My wrath to come upon the cities of the world My people shall be separate. I desire a people without spot or wrinkle and such shall be preserved by Me in the time of my wrath upon all iniquity and unrighteousness.
I am going to prepare you for the coming days by a hard path that will cause you to cry out continually unto Me. For when the going is easy, men do not seek Me, but rejoice in a temporary blessing… and when that blessing is removed they so often turn this way and that way but do not come to Me. I am showing you these things that you may seek Me continually and with great diligence. As you seek Me I will open up truths to you that you have not seen before, and these very truths will be that which will enable you to stand in the last days. As you are persecuted, reviled, and rejected by your brethren, then you will turn to Me with all your heart and seek Me for that spiritual life which you have need of. And when tribulation comes, you will have that which will enable you to stand. For many shall be tossed to and fro. Men’s hearts shall fail them because of trouble on every hand. For these days shall be terrible; the like of which has never been seen before.
COMING GLORY AND DECEIVING SPIRITS
When I visit My people in mighty revival power, it is to prepare them for the darkness ahead. With the glory shall come great darkness, for the glory is to prepare My people for the darkness. I will enable My people to go through because of the visitation of My Spirit. Take heed to yourselves lest ye be puffed up and think that you have arrived. Many shall be puffed up as in olden days, for many then received My message but they continued not in it. Did not I anoint Jehu, yet the things I desired were not accomplished in his life. Listen to the messengers, but do not hold men’s persons in admiration. For many whom I shall anoint mightily with signs and miracles, shall become lifted up and shall fall by the wayside. I do not this willingly; I have made provision that they might stand. I call many into this ministry and equip them, but remember that many shall fall. They shall be like bright lights, and the people shall delight in them. But they shall be taken over by deceiving spirits and shall lead many of My people astray.
Hearken diligently concerning these things, for in the last days shall come seducing spirits (1Tim.4:1) that shall turn many of My anointed ones away. Many shall fall through divers lusts, and because of sin abounding. But if you will seek Me diligently, I will put My Spirit within you (Ezekiel 36:27). When one shall turn to the right hand or to the left hand, you shall not turn with them, but keep your eyes wholly on the Lord. The coming days are the most dangerous, difficult and dark but there shall be a mighty outpouring of My Spirit upon many cities, and many shall be destroyed. My people must be diligently warned concerning these days that are ahead. Many shall turn after seducing spirits; many are already seducing My people. It is those who do righteousness that are righteous. Many cover sins by great theological words, but I warn you of seducing spirits who instruct My people in an evil way. Many of these I shall anoint that they may purify and sift My people, for I would have a holy people.
Many shall come with seducing spirits and hold out lustful enticements. You will find that after I have My people again, the way shall become more and more narrow, and fewer shall walk therein. But be not deceived; the ways of righteousness are My ways. For though Satan comes as an angel of light hearken not to him; for those who perform miracles and speak not of righteousness are not of Me. I warn you with great intensity that I am going to judge My house and have a church without spot or wrinkle when I come. I desire to open your eyes and give you spiritual understanding that you may not be deceived, but walk with uprightness of heart before Me, loving righteousness and hating every evil way. Look unto Me and I will make you to perceive with the eyes of the spirit the things that lurk in darkness, that are not visible to the human eye. Let Me lead you in this way that you may perceive the powers of darkness and battle against them. It is not a battle against flesh and blood; for if you battle in that way you accomplish nothing. But if you let Me take over and battle against the powers of darkness, then they are defeated and then liberation is brought to My people.
THE WAY OF DECEIVERS
I warn you to search the scriptures diligently concerning these last days. For the things that are written shall indeed be manifest. There shall come deceivers among My people in increasing numbers who shall speak forth the truth and shall gain the favor of the people. For the people shall examine the Scriptures and say, “What these men say is true.” Then when they have gained the hearts of the people, then and then only shall they bring out these wrong doctrines. Therefore I say that you should not give your hearts to men, nor hold persons in admiration. For by these very persons shall Satan enter into My people. Watch for seducers. Do you think a seducer will brandish a new heresy and flaunt it before the people? He will speak the words of righteousness and truth and will appear as a minister of light, declaring the word. The peoples’ hearts shall be won. Then when hearts are won, they will bring out their doctrines and the people shall be deceived. The people shall say, “Did not he speak thus and thus? And did we not examine it from the word? Therefore he is a minister of righteousness. This that he now has spoken we do not see in the word, but it must be right, for the other things he spoke were true.”
Be not deceived, for the deceiver will first work to gain the hearts of many, and then shall bring forth his insidious doctrines. You cannot discern those who are of Me and those who are not of Me when they start to speak. But seek Me constantly, and when these doctrines are brought out you shall have a witness in your heart that these are not of Me. Fear not, for I have warned you. Many will be deceived. But if you walk in holiness and uprightness before the Lord, your eyes shall be opened and the Lord will protect you. If you will look unto the Lord, you will know when doctrine changes, and you will not be brought into it. If your heart is right I will keep you. If you will look constantly to Me, I will uphold you.
The minister of righteousness shall be on this wise: his life shall agree with the word, and his lips shall give forth that which is wholly truth, and it will be no mixture. When the mixture appears, then you will know he is not a minister of righteousness. The deceivers speak first the truth and then error to cover their own sins which they love. Therefore, I exhort and command you to study the scriptures, scriptures relative to seducing spirits, for this is one of the great dangers of these last days.
I desire you to be firmly established in My word and not in the personalities of men, that you will not be moved as so many shall be moved. I would keep you in the paths of righteousness. Take heed to yourselves and follow not the seducing spirits that are already manifesting themselves. Diligently inquire of Me when you hear something that you have not seen in the word, and do not hold men’s persons in admiration, for it is by this very method that Satan will hold many of My people.
THE WAY OF TRIUMPH
I have come that ye might have life and have it more abundantly, that you may triumph where I triumphed. On the cross I triumphed over the powers of Satan; and I have called you to walk in the same path. It is when your life is on the cross that you shall know the victory that I experienced. As you are on the cross and seated in Me, then you shall know the power of the resurrection. When I come in My glory, the principalities and powers in the heavenlies shall be broken. Fear not for I have given you power whereby you may tread down the powers of darkness and come forth victorious. It was on the cross that I triumphed over all the powers of the enemy. My life shall flow into you as you enter into these precious truths. Look unto Me and appropriate My life. As your eyes and desires are toward Me and you know that it is to be crucified with Me, then you shall live and your anointing shall increase. It was not in My life that I walked upon the earth, but it was when I was upon the cross that I openly spoiled principalities and powers (Col.2:15).
I am showing you truth that shall cause you to overcome, to have power over that wicked one; truth that will liberate you and those around you. You shall know also the fellowship of My sufferings. There is no other way whereby you may partake of this heavenly glory and reign with Me. “If we suffer with Him we shall reign with Him” (2Tim2:12). I desire to make these truths real within you. As you keep them before you, you will liberate many who are in bondage. You will have a revelation of those in darkness, and will have the keys to liberate the captives. Many seek to liberate, but they have not the keys. Upon the cross continually you will know the power of My resurrection, and you may also partake of My Glory. As you are willing to walk with Me and rejoice in your sufferings, you shall partake of My Glory. Look unto Me for ye have need of power to overcome the wicked one, and the bondages of other lives.
If you will indeed judge yourself, you shall not be judged. As you seek My face and desire to be cleansed by Me in all truth and sincerity of heart, I will judge you in the secret place, and the things that are in the secret place of your heart shall not be manifest to others. I will do it in the secret place, and no man shall know it. And the shame that shall be seen on many faces shall not be seen on your face. Therefore, in love and mercy I am instructing you. And therefore I have said that if a man judge himself he shall not be judged. It is not My good pleasure that the shame of My people be seen by all. How can I judge the world if I judge not first My own house? Hearken unto these things I am telling you. If you will not hearken unto Me, thy shame shall be evident to all.
GOD’S PART AND OUR PART
I would have you consider My life on earth. The anointing upon Me was great and yet the temptations were great on every side, in one form and then in another, offering Me first the glory of the kingdoms of earth, and then reviling and persecuting Me. There will be great glory to My people, and yet the temptations shall be intensified from every side. Think not that with the glory there shall be no temptations or persecutions. The glory to My church shall be great, and so shall be the temptations from the enemy to turn My people from My paths. I am warning you that when the glory shall be manifested the temptations shall be great until a very few that start shall finish. First there shall be offered them great worldly possessions, and then great reviling and unbelief.
Consider your Lord, that as He walked so it shall be for you. There shall be need of great intensity of purpose. At times everyone shall rise up against you simply to turn you from the course that I would put you in. It is written of Me that I set My face as a flint to go the direction My Father had prescribed for Me. If you will finish the course the Lord has laid down for you, you will have to set your face as a flint. With great determination you must walk in the course laid down for you. Many of your loved ones and those who follow with you shall persuade you and try to turn you from the course with many words that seem right in the natural. Did not Christ rebuke Peter, who would turn Him from the course God had prescribed?
Understand these two things and meditate upon them solemnly; the persecution and the darkness shall be as great as the glory in order to try to turn the elect and the anointed ones from the path the Lord has laid down for them. Many shall start, but few shall be able to finish because of the greatness of grace that shall be needed to be able to endure unto the end. The temptation and persecution of your Lord was continuous. He was tempted by Satan in many forms throughout His entire life, and even to the cross when the ungodly cried out “If Thou be the Christ, come down from the cross.” Think not that there shall be a time of no persecution, for it shall be from the time of your anointing unto the end. Difficulties and great persecutions to the end. The Lord must prepare you to be an overcomer in all things, that you may be able to finish the course. The persecution shall increase, even as the anointing shall increase.
In paths of judgment and righteousness shall the Lord lead His people and bring them into that place which He has chosen for them. For the Lord has chosen a place for his people; a place of righteousness and holiness where He shall encamp round about them. All who will be led by the Lord shall be brought into this holy place. For the Lord delights to dwell in His people and to manifest Himself through His people. Let the Lord lead you and He will lead you in difficult places. He led his people of old through a place where no man dwelt; where no man had passed through, in a place of danger, and in the shadow of death. The Lord will indeed lead His people through such places, and yet He will bring them out into a place of great glory. Understand that the way toward the glory is wrought with great danger, and many shall fall to the right or to the left, many shall camp on lesser ground. But the Lord has a place of holiness, and no unclean things shall dwell among His people.
Put your trust in Him and He will bring you into a place of holiness. He desires to bring His people into great glory, the like of which has never been seen, for what the Lord will do for those who put their trust in Him. It is a place of darkness and great danger that separates His people into the place He would have them walk in. He will protect them from the voices that would turn them from His path. He will bring them through the treacherous paths, out into the light of His glory. He will rejoice greatly over His beloved and cause you to be filled with joy unspeakable. He seeks to lead His people into a new place of grace and glory where He will indeed encamp among them. Put your trust in Him and he will surely bring you into this new place.
Fear not the days to come, but fear this only: that you shall walk in a manner pleasing to the Lord. In this time I am ordering and setting up My church, and it shall indeed by pure, without spot or wrinkle. I will do a work in My beloved that has not been since the foundation of the world. I have shown you these things that you may seek the Lord diligently with all of your heart and that you may be a preserver of My people. Run not to this one nor to that one, for the Lord has ordained that salvation is in Him and in Him alone. You shall not turn to this shepherd, or to that one, for there shall be a great scattering upon the earth. Therefore, look unto the Lord for He will make these things clear to you. You shall not look here nor there, for wells that once had water shall be no more. But as you diligently seek Him, He will increase your strength and your faith, that He may be able to prepare you for this time that is coming.
The truths that I reveal to you must become a part of you, not just an experience, but a part of your very nature. I demand truth in the inward parts. It is the truth of the Lord expressed in your very being that shall hold you. Many shall experience the truth, but the truth must become a part of you, your very life. As men and women look upon you, they will hear not only the voice, but see the expression of the truth. Many shall be overcome because they have not permitted the truths to become a part of them. I am showing you these truths that you may be prepared, and having done all, to stand. HE THAT HATH AN EAR, HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING!”
It is so necessary that we beseech our Lord for wisdom, discernment, and shelter in Him, now more than ever before in Christendom, I think. Thank you again. klscribe
I get very concerned about the way in which Bentley deals with sick people – on Youtube I saw him deal with a man who was dying with cancer, interacting with him as though the man only had a touch of stiffness in his leg. You know the routine: Bentley’s head wobbles madly, shouts “you’re healed”, shouts “BAM!”, man hits the deck, Bentley bounces accross to the other side of the stage to administer the next healing – head wobbles, BAM!, down they go, back accross the satge (in meantime man with cancer has been carried off and new healee inserted by those creepy people at the side of the stage) etc.etc.etc. It is clear that he has little concern for the people he deals with on the stage, except as vehicles to promote the Fire, Glory, Bentley ministry whatever.
I am also very concerned that churches in the UK are beginning to ape this stuff. In my own church I have seen some ministering with the words (shouts) FIRE! and BAM! What’s going on? And people are under intense pressure to “manifest”. It is obvious to me that unless you go down or do some other thing such as violent shaking then people present will regard you as not receiving the “impartation”. But just what is this impartation? What is the biblical basis for it? What is being imparted and what is the spirit behind it? Why is there so little focus on repentance, and the Bible in general at these meetings?
And why do Chriustians fall into this stuff lock stock and both barrels, when there is clear teachiing to be careful e.g. Derek Prince’s superb teaching on signs and wonders, where he clearly calls us to be extremely careful about anything not in harmony with scripture. Well Mr Bentley is clearly not in harmony with scripture, but many spirit filled Christians that I know in this country just don’t want to hear this.
you can certainly meet the devil through TV, so at least half of his statement was true. finally, something…
Kathi Lee - as I explained in the article, and then the comments, it was a comment that Derek made before he died to someone someone years ago, that was relevant to Todd Bentley today – hence him still speaking today. I did not mean he spoke recently in a sceance as spiritualism and necromancy is forbidden by God.
I have seen some things about Todd which I will post when I feel is right – but the small amount that was said in that article, I felt was prophetic.
Lavrai –
He absolutely said this, Kate is another witness, I even wrote it down – and at the time it sounded like he meant ‘meet’ as in worship/accept and I thought WHAT?!! How can he be so blatant – BUT like I said to Kate a few minutes later he said something about confronting the Prince of the Air through his revival so it could be justified by saying it was ‘meet’ as in the confronting and warfare context. Or, like others remark, it could be intentional double speak.
Lavrai, I heard him say this but didn’t catch his following remarks like Miriam did. It would certainly be interesting though to check out if that particular episode of the “show” is on the internet or maybe it has disappeared into thin “air” already!
I have commented in other areas in this website and feel I need to comment here if I may. I was in the RHBrowne revival at Carpenter’s Home Church. I have been in a few meetings recently with Todd Bentley. I have enjoyed the worship part of the services as they truly are in preparation for the afterlife when we all get to heaven. What did God create us for? To worship HIM. I have also felt the tangible presence of God in lifechanging ways in these services. If I am reading the comments correctly, they are largely from people who have not been in the services at all. If this is not from God, it will end by itself. Whenever I see people who were in front of me in line and people who I have gone to church with for 20 years get up and walk from a wheelchair, I am inclined to believe that it is a “GOD” thing. I am able to discern demonic activity from the manifest presence of God and this is definitely from God. Please let’s unite and be of the one body of Christ we are asked to be from the Bible and stop the finger-pointing and name-calling. God bless everyone reading this and I pray you will try to ask God to show you the truth, not necessarily take my word for it as you do not know who I am from Adam.
This article is very oppressive, nit-picking even. It’s seem you went into the meeting actively seeking to find fault.
But no doubt it’s me that’s turning the blind eye, not you, …right?
I thank God that there are watchmen on the wall.
Ezekiel 33:1-9
Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, [2] Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: [3] If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; [4] Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. [5] He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. [6] But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.
[7] So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. [8] When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. [9] Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
So while most of you sleep because your bellies are full of mammon, let the watchmen on the walls continue to sound the alarm.
“ Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”
Kathi Lee,
I have firsthand experience with the teachings of William Branham (the highly touted ‘prophet to the gentiles’ whom has been dead and gone for 40 or so years) but his faithless followers (faithful to him however) keep putting out the tapes and books. It is so very sad that the Kansas City Prophets, lacking any sort of real spiritual discernment, resurrected his unholy spirit and false, poisonous doctrines and trump it out as ’something new’ and holy. Bentley actually believes he is led by the angel that corresponded with Branham (named Emma apparently) which, no doubt he is. Bentkley is a down right fool in every biblical and literal sense of the word! I will testify first hand that the fruit of that spirit that ran Branham is oppression, sexism, racist, mocking, unscriptural, bondage (physical and spiritual), perverted, unholy, graven images of self, self empowerment, lust for power and glory, more fear, respecters of positions, full of hatred for outsiders and each other.
All and any doctrines associated with Branham (Manchild, Serpent Seed, Latter Day Rain, Joels Army, Sons of Manifest etal)are suspect, by default, of counterfeit spirituality. Branham and Oral Roberts buddied across America for some time basically reinventing hype and hysteria in charismatic circles, totally rejected by most pentecostals as heretic including the Assembly of God. Roberts and Branham separated due to greed and pride not mixing well. At the same time, AW Tozer (a real minister of the Lord), headed north to Canada to “get away from the insanity going on in the ‘crusades’ happening in American charismatic and pentecostal churches” infected by these insanities and false manifestations of the 40 and 50’s and early 60’s.
Branhams venon and poisonous pottage has spiritually entrapped generations of people now whom have been taught to fear man and angels more than God, faith in works alone, and more horrendous apparitions of false teachings you can find Paul and James and Peter, John and Jesus personally exposing, commenting on, warning against and rebuking, and now these mislead people are unable to think differently due to a lie that to do so would a ’sin against the Spirit’. It is pure cultic in every sense. Not a big difference from the FLDS as been depicted on TV. It might be possible, though I doubt it, some Branhamites may have become more liberal now and allow TV’s and possibly might allow women to trim their hair and wear pants once in a while. Communal for a longtime, seperated and the whole nine yards. Under Brahnams direct rule, they lived everyday waiting for rapture and in utter bondage and fear to his very words and whims and attitudes and actions. Following Branham was following Jesus himself so they thought and think. Why, he proclaimed himself the 7th angel in revelations! They believe it to this very day! He presented himself as Christ either implicantly or directly. He called himself or intimated himself as the forerunner of Jesus, Elijah himself. He boasted more power than even the Apostles! When Branham died, they congregated expecting the rapture at any moment. Very sad. Not much different than the Joseph Smith doctrines and episode. Same things, different generations.
People! God wants us to reason with Him! If you have questions or fears or doubts, please, please talk with Him. He will not destroy you with eternal damnation if you dare ask Him questions about these things! The god of Branham might breathe these threats, but not Jesus Christ. Big difference.
Branham and the rest who are created in his image are all false prophets and any ‘minister’ causing believers to accept these lies they spew are guilty of ‘teaching my servants to eat things sacrificed unto idols’ which is what happend in Num 25 ‘ baalpeor episode. Read it, understand it! The real Spirit of God can not be bought, transported and/or imparted on whomever you chose. Dont buy (literally and metaphorically) this load of crap! Bentley, Styne, DeLuca, the KC Prophets, Bob Jones, Cain (Branhams most faithful follower until the late 50’s) and the rest of them are cut from the same image. Flee idolatry! Return to God Almighty! Humble yourself to the Lordship of Christ Jesus! Repent and be healed for real if you’ve been snagged by this old rusty hook of lies!
great words RS.
Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Kevin and DM
Praise God He has already shown us the truth in the Bible and some of us do not take anybody’s “word” except His. There is no doubt IF and only IF you use scripture as your guide you will see from His word this is NOT a “God thing”. If you are blind to God’s word you will also be blind to error and deception.
2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
hear hear-wonderfully put
God bless you
Been reading alot of the posts about Todd Bentley and the Lakeland revival. Have tons of concerns! But without getting in to those concerns right now I do want to address one isssue. Please quit comparing Toronto and Lakeland to Brownsville Assembly in Pensacola. Major difference: Repentance! Let me tell you about some fruit of the Brownsville Revival. My life! Without all details I was a drunkard, pot smoking, liar, thief, pornographer, lusting sinner. I was completely lost. Through Brownsville I was born again and from that day on never drank smoked cussed or even lied again. God completely set me free. The the Holy Spirit began to lead me in a process of sanctification and showing me all truth. Very biblical! He convicted me of lust, anger, slander and other internal sins. As I read the bible he deepened my undersatnding of the cross and throughout the Bible began to show me Jesus. He also showed me that my life was no longer my own and that He was now the authority. Now ten years later I am in full time (volunteer) ministry and my main message is the cross, repentance holiness, submission to the will of God and private prayer. Brownsville was without any doubt a move of God. The message and fruit was good. So please be careful in your comparisons especially if you aren’t 100% sure of the details
Jeremy:
I am very glad that your life was turned around through God meeting you at Brownsville. But this does not alter what this thing really was at heart or its spiritual source, lying spirits sent to decieve. God can reach into the deepest and most corrupt darkness, picks out someone around you who responds in truth, and can use a corrupt antichrist revival for good in that sense. Just as people hearing Peter Popoff may get genuinely saved, despite the fact he is a vile and corrupt false prophet and teacher. But this does not make a man or movement good or from God. Your fruit may be good despite these people, not because of them – there is much stinking fruit come out of Toronto and Brownsville over the years.
I do know what I am talking about in this case – the spirits and theology are directly linked in both cases, Brownsville and Tonorot and there is tons of documented proof on this. The Pensacola ‘Revival’ that was no revival, broke out when Steve Hill brought the ‘fire’ back from Holy Trinity Brompton, London which had in turn come from Toronto. Many Brownsville people prior to this had gone to Toronto and been influenced by it. They also had influences from the Kansas City prophets etc.
Brownsville came from Toronto. There were some differances in administration and preaching and style, acknowledged, because of the leaders at Brownsville vs Tornoto – but in terms of who was holding the puppet strings, same anointing, same people, same reasons, same spirits….and yeah a lot of lies and corruption went on too.
The problem with your arguement is that lying spirits lie and deceiving spirits decieve. Neither was happening at Brownsville. The true gospel was being preached (submission to Jesus, repentance, the cross), and people were repenting and being reconciled to God. I was not the rare Peter Popoff salvation. Lasting salvations like mine were the norm. My wife, several friends, and countless other aquaintances have the same fruit as mine. I watched people be transformed like myself all the time. Here was and is the fruit in their lives: love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness self-control. The scriptural fruit of The Holy Spirit. The Spirit that was at work at Brownsville did these things: convict of sin, point people to Jesus, created love for Jesus, love for Christians, and people were set free from sin and bondage.
I understand that I am not going to convice you and you are not going to convince me. So I guess there is really no need for this conversation, but I would urge you to walk carefully about labeling the move of God at Brownsville. I cannot speak about these other “moves” and have legit questions and concerns about most, but as someone who was able to go to the Brownsville Revival every night I can speak for my experience with authority.
I am sure you know how Jesus responded when the Pharisees accused Him of casting out devils by the devil. He said “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.”
Also look at 1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
What I am saying is that if a revival produces ,as a whole, love for Jesus, repentance, and a new life of submission to the will of God and obedience to His commands, then that move MUST be of God.
Healings are not evidence of a true revival, signs and miracles are not evidence of a true revival, prophecies and manifestations are not evidence of a true revival, but people leaving lifestyles of disobedience and rebellion to God and now living lives under the complete authority of Jesus Christ IS!! 2 corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Lastly, your other arguement that about Steve Hill going to Brompton and others going to Toronto, therefore it CANNOT be from God is completely contradicted by your first paragraph response. You said “God can reach into the deepest and most corrupt darkness, picks out someone around you who responds in truth, and can use a corrupt antichrist revival for good in that sense”. According to your own words Steve Hill and others could very well be the “ones who respond in truth”. Is it possible that regardless of what was going on at these other places, that these from Brownsville ONLY wanted a move of the HOLY SPIRIT (which they prayed for for over 2 years). If that is true and that was there heart, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to recieve some deceptive spirit.
Luke 11:9-13
“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13″If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
So scripture plainly shows that someone who genuine desires the Holy Spirit will recieve the Holy Spirit, NOT something else.
If there is blatant sin or major doctrinal error, I will be the first to call it out and I actually have seen alot of stuff that you have called out on your website where I 100% agree with you. But as far as Brownsville goes you really should with an open heart before God re-evaluate your position. This website could do alot of good for people who are swallowing crazy stuff without praying or judging it by the Word. But be very careful not to throw out the things that God really is doing and Has done with thing that are definite error. Thank you for your time and response.
Jeremy
I did not say this. I was correcting you who said that what happened at Browsnville was not linked to Toronto. It was connected, and I gave the brief chain of events, and much further evidence can be provided from the Brownsville leader’s own lips who testified this came from Toronto too, just as Holy Trinity Brompton’s leader’s did. Spiritually there are also absolute comparisons with the same Latter Rain and dominionist teachings and other flaky teachings from Toronto, and the elevation of false prophets and apostles. It is the same spirits and the same people ultimately behind it. There is the same false prophecy, similar experiential led fleshly manifestations and their exaltation over truth.
You claim there was much good fruit out of Brownsville but the facts claim otherwise. Leaders repeatedly lied eg claiming crime stats had gone down when they actually went up, there were documented healings when there were not etc etc. Then we could talk about money corruption, Brownsville leaders were a terrible testimony to your neighbourhood who are disgusted by the lies coming out of your church. This is your fruit! Lies and corruption! Ok God reached you and others, praise God, in spite of evil, but that does not make the leaders or the move as a whole godly, any more than it makes Peter Popoff or other charlatans godly.
It could happen, but clearly it did not because of all the lies and false testimony! You were conned by them, and are blind to their repeated deciets – you defend them but they were not the ones to save you – if God used them, it was in spite of them.
No, scripture does not say this at all, otherwise the apostle John would not have urged us to test the spirits, or Paul commanded us to test and weigh and judge prophecy, prophets and apostles. If what you naively said was so, there would not be nearly so many cults and sects in the world or false teachers or prophets. How do you think leaven gets in the church – because people want it there? Sometimes this is true, people know it is a lie and accept it anyway, but many times people sincerely think the leaven is spiritual gold.
It would be impossible if they upheld scripture and tested and weighed everything, but they did not. They hosted multitudes of false prophets and apostles and discarded truth to this end. They loved the manifestations, money and glory, more than the truth.
So you guys are calling all these healings demonic….mmmmm interesting…It reminds me of the Pharisees in the time of Jesus (Read Matthew 12:22). You are automatically saying that TB is a false prophet. Well let me tell you something; I’ve been a Christian for over 30 years; I graduated from Bible school and just like you seek the Lord with all my heart and soul. I was suffering from a bleeding ulcer for several months; I too went to Lakeland to see this outpouring of the Holy Ghost; I too participated of the worship and to your comments; we were created to worship; that’s the reason God created us; to worship him; period. Anyway; standing in the back of the church I was praying with my EYES OPEN when suddenly I felt somebody punched me on the side of my stomach; I didn’t see anything; I can surely tell you it was not a demon; I come from a country where people worship them and I have cast out demons as well; I felt the presence of God when I was hit and felt to my knees. TB did not pray for me or anyone else in that place, I was hungry and still am fro GOD. When I got up off the floor I was completely healed. The pain left and I have been medicine free for 1 month now. So you’re saying my healing was demonic???? If you’re a so called prophet of God; I would urge you to seek God; I lived thru revival in the past; God spoke to me with an audible voice as well. But my pastor; people just like you, told me that wherever we were feeling and seeing were not from the Lord. This created remorse and anger in my heart for years to come. It was not until I felt under the anointing of God when he hit that night that he said to forgive those people that hurt me. Maybe instead of judging TB, you would pray for him, instead of writing against him and the many people of God that were touched by the power of God, you too ask God to touch you and fill you up with his glory. Like Jesus said: ““Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me”. What side are you on? Are you saying that those people that come from different places around the world are ignorant to the word of God? Don’t speak against your brother, pray for him. Do not hate, LOVE. Isn’t that what GOD is all about.
I’m appalled at the gullibility of some of the people here.
I know Jesus Christ and Him only.
I don’t care how many people get healed/saved and how many miracles happen, etc.
If a leader/teacher/prophet/apostle tells unbiblical teachings/experiences and/or does things that go against all the scriptures stand, we are to expose and shun him/her.
Todd Bentley is a false leader/teacher/prophet/apostle and he not only communes with other false ones, but he also endorses them too.
Their names are known, like Patricia King, Paul Cain, etc.
That should close the case and for those who don’t want to believe what Todd Bentley is, i’ll ask you this: You have to chose between Todd Bentley and Jesus Christ, so who’s your choice?
Oh Barachem!
“I don’t care how many people get healed/saved… etc”
And OTHER people are gullible? I’ve looked into the criticisms of the Lakeland thing and to date I have found NO criticism based on actual, clear scripture. Not one. This is what I find: vague comparisons with New Age (exactly what do you think the New Age is a counterfeit of?), guilt by association, and repetition of slanderous name-calling. But no clear scripture that prohibits anything I have observed (and yes I’ve been there) at Lakeland.
But I’ll give you some clear scriptures:
1. John 7:23 Jesus said “are you angry with me because I made a man perfectly well on the Sabbath?” You can almost taste Jesus’ perplexity… How did he answer?
“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
Now the Pharisees at least had a little scriptural basis to their argument – but a lot of the Bentley criticism is based on his appearance. To Jesus the making of the man perfectly well was not irrelevant.
2. In answer to John the Baptist’s question “Are You the Expected One?”, Jesus’ reply was simply: “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them.”
He could easily have simply said “Yes!”. Obviously Jesus knew that John WOULD care that people were being healed and that he would be “gullible” enough to accept the healings as evidence (of course He also knew Jesus) that He was the Expected One.
3. “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.”
OK to get this straight – Jesus said to judge prophets by what they produce: healings, salvation, “overlong” worship, devotion to God – I’d tend to put in the good fruit category! Barachem – you might be too spiritual to use Jesus’ method of judgement, but you’d be disobedient to scripture. (Do I need to say this? Disobedience to scripture is NOT good fruit)
Will there be mixture? Of course! Leaven was not removed for the feast of Pentecost so the move of God in a Pentecostal outpouring will not be perfect. Will there be error? Of course! Peter fell into error but was restored by Paul in a face to face encounter (This was pre-Internet I know but I struggle to even imagine Paul setting up a website to criticise Peter).
4. What to do about the wheat and the tares?
“The servants said unto him, wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, NO; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.”
The master was not confident in
a. his servants’ ability to discern between the wheat and the tares, and
b. his servants’ ability to be able to remove the tares without destroying the wheat.
On the contrary, so many of the Lakeland critics are supremely confident to do both. Why they are not AFRAID to pass judgement and criticism with so little scriptural backup astounds me.
The servants at least had the sense to ask the master before they went into tare-pulling mode – what did the master say? “No.”
Paulie:
I have some questions for you, I hope you will answer them fully.
1. Do you believe Jesus will return bodily, in the flesh, in the so called “2nd Coming”?
2. Do you believe that the Earth will be saved in a great revival at the end of the age?
3. Do you believe that God will perfect Christians in the end-times until they become perfect “God men”?
4. Do you believe that we are in an age of end-time apostles and prophets who are even now, moving about the Earth making disciples, healing people, raising the dead etc?
Shalom.
Nice scripture twisting Paulie (is THIS the fruit of Todd Bentley’s ‘ministry’?)
POINT #1 – “are you angry with me because I made a man perfectly well on the Sabbath?”
Isn’t is funny, these modern day healers NEVER make anyone ‘perfectly well’. It’s always something like, ‘well, I do feel heat, and my back feels a little better’
Let’s not forget the pastor that Bentley claimed was healed but who died 8 days later. Also, Justin Peters followed up on 7 supposed healings and found that NONE OF THEM were any better or had any change in their physical condition.
POINT #2 – “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them.”
Oddly enough, none of these things have happened, ESPECIALLY preaching the gospel to the poor. The poor can’t AFFORD Todd Bentley’s gospel, and his gospel IS NOT the gospel of the bible (Gal 1:8)
POINT #3 – “Disobedience to scripture is NOT good fruit”
Once again, YOU condemn Bentley by YOUR OWN WORDS. Bentley claims to speak with the dead, which is expressly forbidden in scripture. And JUST LIKE YOU SAID, disobedience to scripture is NOT good fruit.
As far as using Jesus method goes, you didn’t go far enough in attempting to quote Matthew chapter 7. In verse 18 Jesus says that ‘A good tree CANNOT produce bad fruit’.
Since YOU’VE shown, by YOUR OWN STANDARDS, that Bentley is producing bad fruit, he CAN’T be a good tree. (Unless you and Bentley know something that Jesus doesn’t)
POINT #4 – “Why they are not AFRAID to pass judgement and criticism with so little scriptural backup astounds me.”
Last week, Todd Bentley claimed that Jesus was going to set foot on the Lakeland stage. Let’s see what scripture says about that:
Matthew 24:23-24
If anyone tells you look ‘Here is the Messiah’ or ‘There he is’, DON’T PAY ANY ATTENTION. For false prophets and false messiahs will rise up and perform great miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.
Notice how Jesus links people claiming that ‘the Messiah is here’ immediately with false prophets.
It’s not like there is some deep hidden meaning here. It’s amazing that these verses are VIRTUALLY EXACTLY what is going on. Bentley SPECIFICALLY told us the Messiah was there, and Jesus SPECIFICALLY told us that people like Bentley WOULD say these things, and then Jesus SPECIFICALLY and lovingly lets us know they are false prophets.
Then, in verse 25, as if to drive home the point, Jesus says, ‘See, I have warned you’
(Uh, Paulie, how’s that for scriptural back up?)
And then, in verse 26, Jesus answers the final question for us:
“So, if someone tells you that ‘the Messiah is out in the desert’, DON’T BOTHER TO GO AND LOOK.
Again (Almost as if Jesus wrote this passage JUST FOR THIS SITUATION), Jesus tells us that when the Bentley’s of this world claim Messiah is coming, WE ARE COMMANDED TO NOT EVEN GO AND LOOK.
Now, since Jesus tells us NOT TO GO to Lakeland, wouldn’t you say that disobedience to scripture is not good fruit (oh, wait, you already did)
Now, I gotta ask with all sincerity – Would you call this a criticism based on ‘actual, clear scripture’?
Paulie, Todd has claimed that there have been at least 13 instances of people being raised from the dead because of this “revival”. Not one of these has been substantiated. Why aren’t these people on stage at Lakeland testifying to this, if it is so? All we hear is Todd reading off email reports of supposed raising of the dead. You are being hyped up by Bentley. Mark the words that the watchmen are speaking. You will remember them one day.
Hi Andy,
It is nice to get the discussion back to scripture – thank you. But was it necessary to begin your post describing mine as “scripture twisting”? Especially as your post (in my humble opinion) doesn’t substantiate your accusation. I have noticed the trend toward name-calling by the Lakeland critics. Why not let your argument speak for itself?
OK. Let me start with your Point 4: That Todd Bentley is a “false prophet” because he said Jesus would set foot on the Lakeland stage on the stage and this is blatantly against Matthew 24:23-24. Really?
Am I a false prophet because I say that when I meet my friends on Monday night to pray, that Jesus will be in my friend’s lounge? No! I’m actually agreeing with scripture because Jesus told me that when 2 or 3 gather in His name then “I WILL BE IN THEIR MIDST”. How could you condemn Todd for agreeing with Jesus?
So obviously since Jesus Himself said He would be wherever 2 or 3 gather, Matthew 24:23-24 is referring to false messiahs – of which of course there are many – not in the sense that TB used the term. If you want to talk about “scripture twisting” …well…
Point 3: “Bentley claims to speak with the dead, which is expressly forbidden in scripture”. Well I don’t know what you’re referring to… but please answer me this: 1. Did Moses die (Deuteronomy 37)? 2. With whom did Jesus speak in Matthew 17? You are not suggesting that Jesus brought forth bad fruit are you? Be careful when you cast stones…
Point 2: “Oddly enough, none of these things (blind receiving sight, lame walking etc.) have happened… especially preaching the gospel to the poor”.
My point was that Jesus approved this on several occasions as a genuine criteria for evaluating a move of God (including His own), or even as a sign that should follow someone who believes in His name. To say that healings are irrelevant is NOT scriptural.
To claim that genuine healings are not occurring in Lakeland is simply not true. I talked to a lady myself quietly wheeling her wheelchair out of the auditorium with her ecstatic friends. She no longer needed it. She had had a serious car smash 3 years before and had not walked without assistance since – until that night. As far as preaching the gospel to the poor – I did it myself when I was there and heard many testimonies of the gospel preached (and amazing salvation testimonies) to the poor in the Lakeland area.
Point 1: “Isn’t is funny, these modern day healers NEVER make anyone ‘perfectly well’.”
When in Lakeland I witnessed a man who had needed a cane (ie he was lame)since an accident in 1978, walk perfectly. He had been prayed for in Walmart by some revival attendees. He gave them his cane (which I saw) right then and there because he was instantly healed and no longer needed it.
“Let’s not forget the pastor that Bentley claimed was healed but who died 8 days later. Also, Justin Peters followed up on 7 supposed healings and found that NONE OF THEM were any better or had any change in their physical condition.”
The pastor? Well maybe attempting to speak in faith – Todd made a mistake – I’m sure he’s made many… haven’t we all? I guess he could be 100% right by never daring to step out in faith. Yet, strangely, God seems to like faith.
I followed up Justin Peter’s claims. These are being repeated in what I think is a potentially slanderous manner: I was at Lakeland at the same time as Justin Peters. There were 2 instances when the sick were on stage. Firstly – to testify about a healing. Secondly to receive prayer. In the second instance, many would feel the power -that does not mean that these were “supposed healings”. Only in a minute percentage of these cases (if any) would there have been any claim of healing unless it originated from the person themselves. To imply that Todd claimed these people were healed to hype up the crowd is simply not true, in my experience of 5 days in Lakeland.
Justin Peters made an interesting statement in his interview: “Next to my salvation my cerebral palsy is one of the greatest gifts that God has ever given me….”. Now there’s a statement that SHOULD be put up for scriptural analysis.
I’m afraid Andy – having read your post, I’m still waiting for some actual, clear scripture, used in context that justifies judgement and criticism of a member of the body of Christ.
Hey Cheryl,
I agree with you. I share your concerns. We should value truth. I would especially be concerned if these resurrection claims are not followed up and documented.
Yet, there’s something about a childlike faith that EXPECTS to see the dead raised in the name of Jesus (and is perhaps inclined to believe email testimonies) that I think pleases God. Shouldn’t we EXPECT to see these things? “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” When Jesus returns He’ll be searching for faith. And “love… believes all things, hopes all things…”. This is what I see in Todd Bentley. Call it naive if you like.
“You are being hyped up by Bentley.”
Well I admit. My faith level has risen. My consecration to the LORD has increased. I worshiped night after night in the “overlong” worship without once considering the time. Worship for an hour and a half now passes like a blink.
I don’t know if any of these are capital crimes. In fact the alternative: unbelief and passionless worship – I don’t think please God. So I’m prepared to risk the hype.
“Mark the words that the watchmen are speaking. You will remember them one day.”
Don’t worry – I already do. Back in the 90’s I might perhaps have considered myself a “watchman”. I made many criticisms of the Word of Faith movement and formed judgements and made pronouncements on individuals based on things I had read(usually second hand and out of context). I knew which “false prophet” hung out with who (handy – so I could condemn them as a group). A funny thing happened to me. The more I prayed the more I was lead to search the actual scripture, forego the accusations and slander and seek out the truth. Then I did a lot of repenting for partaking in slander of Jesus’ beautiful bride.
Now I realise a true “watchman” will live in true relationship with Jesus, will judge according to the Spirit and scripture, not delight in evil, being patient to evaluate the fruit at the proper time, will deal with error in a scriptural way, and will have NO PART in slander of any kind. In so doing will save HIMSELF from the pride that leads to deception.
Hi Bull,
I don’t know – some of your questions are a bit weighty for me. Please don’t tell me there’s a test for me to get in? If so, I’m claiming the Blood!
I’m just trying to live in relationship with Jesus, get to know his voice, follow the Bible, and walk in faith – He hasn’t given me Advanced Theology 300 yet, so I won’t claim to know the answers. If you have it all worked out I’m pleased for you. (But you should go for the Blood anyway.)
Shalom from NZ
Paul
Hi Cheryl,
You will find one of the resurrections, referred to at Lakeland reported by ABC News here:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4923465
Paulie