BILL HAMON’S STRONGHOLDS OF THE END TIME DELUSION
MEIN KAMPF FOR THE ANTICHRIST THEOCRACY
Article by ‘Arise My Love’
“I read a small book called FULFILLING YOUR PERSONAL PROPHECIES by Bill Hamon after my Pastor’s wife gave it to me a few years ago. It sat around for about a year. When I read it last year, I was concerned, because he seemed to be making up a lot of rules that I had never heard before; rules that seemed to prevent any discernment as to true or false prophecy. I marked it up, dismissing him as a kind of self-satisfied older dude from the second wave of over-the-top charismatics of the 1960’s.
March of this year, I attended a prophecy class given by my church. Bill Hamon was the source text and I became really alarmed.
What was being taught was that God is a sort of “mathematical force” — there was even a number given for “how many prophecies” were waiting in the air for us to speak forth. It was being taught all modern prophecy was “conditional”; and yet the person being prophesied over had to receive that “conditional” word as if it were “factual and true” as the “engrafted Word of God.” We were being taught to “never give important prophecies about marriage or career.”
I had to restate and rephrase my one question three times to get a straight answer: “What happens when leadership gives a false prophecy?” That was not on the syllabus. Finally an answer came forth: “That person would have to be removed from leadership.”
We then stood up and practiced “One Minute Speed Prophecy On Demand”, ala musical chairs, spitting out personal prophetic words over people in one-minute spurts!
What was being taught was that God was like a Magic Eight Ball in the Sky, and if we tap into His mathematical “prophecy stream” we can pull down at will and on demand “prophecies” that are “false” but also “true” at the same time. And these “prophetic Words” are just hanging in the atmosphere for us to pull down at will…
This is George Orwell’s ANIMAL FARM. No, worse: we were being taught witchcraft in the name of God.
Witchcraft is attempting supernatural feats without giving Glory to God or adhering to His Word. GOD IS NOT AN IMPERSONAL FORCE. GOD IS REAL AND LOVING AND TRUE. GOD WILL NOT DO PROPHECY ON DEMAND, BECAUSE WE CAN NEVER TELL GOD WHAT TO DO. My church was teaching brainwashing in the name of prophecy. My beloved church was teaching witchcraft, rebellion to the word of God.
I went home and reread the little Hamon book. I had now done research on Jones, Cain, Joyner, etc., and I had heard some heavy things from the Lord about my church and false prophecy that I did not fully understand. My eyes were now very open to read what Hamon was saying. I read very carefully.
I marked nearly every single sentence as deception. Here are just a handful of the probably two thousand deceptions this man promulgates:
1. Hamon makes the illogical leap that because some Christians do not believe in the gifts, then ALL modern prophecy must be true, because the gifts are for today!
2. Hamon redefines the “rhema” word as a distinct category of (untested) modern prophecy, separate from the Logos written word.
3. Hamon fails to teach proper Biblical discernment about modern prophecy skipping completely the 150 Biblical tests for false prophets and false prophecy.
4. Hamon commits the accursed sin of raising modern prophetic words to the level of the written word of God. Hamon teaches that untested modern prophecy must be received as “the engrafted Word of God”.
5. Hamon seems unaware of the sin of adding to the Word of God with untested modern revelations, and the common sense reason God calls it sin: it is changing God’s contract with us. One cannot add to a contract or “covenant” without changing it!
6. Hamon provides no accountability for false prophecies or false prophets: his only qualification is “recognized presbyters of prophecy”.
7. Hamon teaches all modern prophecy is conditional, even if those conditions aren’t stated at the time of the prophecy! This makes God out to be a lying trickster who doesn’t love us enough to tell us what He expects us to do! Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His plans in advance to His prophets the saints.
8. Hamon teaches that untested modern prophecy must be received as true, and in “faith”. This is equivalent of having “faith” in something unsubstantiated by the Bible; it is the equivalent of having blind faith in the blind faith put in “established” prophets.
9. Hamon teaches that failed, false or “unfulfilled” modern prophecy is because of the “lack of faith” of the receiver of the prophecy!
10. Hamon makes the faulty historical assumption that because the charismatic gifts were not widely practiced until Azusa, likewise, the ministerial position gifts were “repressed” through history and need to be restored.
11. Hamon fails to distinguish between a Christian’s POSITION in the body and their FAITH to believe -receive the gifts: the difference of our RANK and our WEAPONS in the Army of God.
12. Hamon adds the sin of Adam to a doctrine of the five fold ministry: ye shall not die, ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil — by espousing that “restored” Super Apostles and Super Prophets will become transfigured, glorified, immortal beings who lead the End Times church in Old Covenant murder of any “unbeliever”.
13. Hamon, like Joseph Smith of the Mormons, teaches that an unnecessary “restoration of the Church” will come through new prophetic revelation.
14. Hamon has a faulty dispensational view; he either does not believe or does not understand:
THE DISPENSATION OF THE FATHER
THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS WHO WROTE THE OLD COVENANT
THE TIME OF “AN EYE FOR AN EYE; A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH”
THE DISPENSATION OF THE SON
THE NEW TESTAMENT APOSTLES WHO WROTE THE NEW COVENANT
BASED ON WHAT CHRIST TAUGHT ON THE EARTH:
“TURN THE OTHER CHEEK; BLESS THOSE WHO CURSE YOU”
THE DISPENSATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
STARTED AT PENTECOST
WHEN THE CHURCH IS BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION
OF THE PROPHETS (THE OLD TESTAMENT WORD)
AND APOSTLES (THE NEW TESTAMENT WORD)
AND SCRIPTURE IS SEALED.
ALL TEACHING AND SUPERNATURAL EXPERIENCES;
VISIONS, PROPHECIES, AND DREAMS
ARE SUBJECT TO THE ANGLES AND PARAMETERS
OF CHRIST AS CHIEF CORNERSTONE OF HIS CHURCH.
1. Moreover, Hamon capitalizes on our charismatic fears of living by the Letter of the Law and not the Spirit of the Law in his arguments on the “Rhema”. True Rhema will always testify to the Logos and is proved to be of God only when it substantiates, or is subject to, the Logos!
(For example, Jesus Himself used true Rhema to combat the Devil’s lies in the desert and the Rhema, because it is Truth, won)
2. Hamon makes the false prophetess Jezebel’s job easier by failing to teach proper biblical discernment for prophecy. Instead, Hamon deceptively teaches that modern prophecy and modern prophets are on a “learning curve”. Scripture NOWHERE substantiates this.
The Word tells us never to come into agreement with false prophetess Jezebel by “suffering” her or “tolerating” her. In other words, we are not to “tolerate” false prophecies in the church or we come under the CURSE of God.
3. On the historical front, the real reason the church lost its weapons, or charismatic gifts, was because of the sin of unbelief in the Church through history; their positions in the Body were always intact.
But Hamon’s idea of formal church wide recognition or “restoration” of five fold ministry gifts does nothing to combat sin, but rather increases the likelihood of a worse sin, pride in our positions!
4. Hamon instead proffers that Latter Day “Apostles” and “Prophets” will become Super Apostles and Super Prophets that will lead the church through the End Times, with new Revelation that supersedes the Word of God. These Super Apostles/Prophets will take physical dominion of governments and nations while becoming glorified and invincible God-Men who will be allowed to “judge” and even “murder” those who disagree, i.e. unbelievers in Hamon’s view.
THIS IS IDEA OF END TIME APOSTLES AND PROPHETS AS GLORIFIED GOD-MEN IS SATAN’S OLDEST AND GREATEST LIE: “THOU SHALL NOT DIE; THOU SHALT BE AS GODS, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL”
5. Hamon teaches a Dominionist view that Christ cannot come back to earth until “physical dominion” by his army of Super Apostles and Super Prophets is accomplished; whereby Hamon rejects the scripture that says “Christ will have to shorten the days for the sake of the Elect”.
6. Hamon mixes up the historicity of the Covenantal Time Frame: like the Mormons who practice Old Testament Polygamy and the Office of the (infallible) Prophet, they also advocated murder of unbelievers. Hamon mixes Old and New Testament theology.
7. Hamon capitalizes on our charismatic fear of the End Times, and sets us up for the Anti Christ’s “Church” paving the way for the Anti Christ’s False Prophet.
By his heretical teachings on modern prophecy, Hamon is robbing the Church of needed discernment of the False Prophet who will trumpet the Anti Christ.
If we cannot distinguish between true and false prophecy now, how will the Church be able to discern the False Prophet of the Bible who will usher in the Anti Christ?
Hamon teaches the damning heresy of William Braham and the Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God.
This is the End Time Delusion that God promises He will send upon those so-called Christians who no longer love the truth.
The Bible teaches very clearly there will be a great falling away, a great Apostasy in the End Times. This is it. And this is why I had a very strong and weird word for my Pastors in October of 2007:
I WILL SEND A DELUSION.
EXCERPT FROM ARISE’S TEXT ON BILL HAMON’S FULFILLING YOUR PERSONAL PROPHECY:
Hamon writes that our attitude towards personal prophecy should be “positive” (a kinda 1970’s pop psychology term) because the Bible tells us we should not “despise” prophecies. Grammar and definition are always in flux in Hamon’s assertions; he even mixes up this little noted Biblical idea.
But the real reason Paul wrote we are “not to despise prophecy” is because that’s what the ancient Jews always did! They despised prophecy and stoned the Old Testament Prophets because the Prophets always told the Jews to do the one thing the flesh does not want to do: DIE!
Hamon completely ignores this most serious part of even our Salvation. The man never mentions sin in the context of his “new” modern prophecy. We are warned not to despise TRUE prophecy because that’s our human inclination — no one wants to have their sin pointed out. But true prophecy always points out our sin so as to always point us to our Savior.
Even Hamon’s sneaky grammatical attempt to link his phrase “positive attitude” with “not despising” prophecy is a lie. It’s really just another way of restating his previous argument — that we should believe all modern personal prophecy is of God because some people don’t believe in it — and we should be “up” or “happy” or “positive” about it. It is a complete distortion to apply some smiling Happy Face 70’s idea to the problem of sin.
But next Hamon throws in some Biblical language to bolster his argument:
FAITH – The basic proper attitude and response towards prophets and personal prophecy is to know and believe that it is scriptural and then receive God’s prophetic ministry with faith.
Wow. Hamon left off at 1 THESS where it says we are to “examine everything” regarding modern prophecy but then leaps into more distortion.
We ARE to receive the Word — the rhema word supported by the written word — with faith.
But untested modern personal prophecy is NOT to be treated on the same level as the living Word “the Word who was made Flesh and dwelt among us”. Hamon has not shown how to discern modern prophecy; yet he’s telling us to have faith in untested modern personal prophecy? This is a despicable twisting of God’s holiness.
We are not to despise prophecy, but not for the reasons Hamon states. And it’s a big leap to have blind faith in the modern prophetic word without examination or discernment. But Hamon is undeterred, and I’m only on page 6!
If we conclude that those (who might minister prophetically to us) are qualified, competent men and women of god, then the prophecy would be received in confidence, believing that word to be true and factual. Hence the attitude of faith is imperative to bring fulfillment.
Unbelievable! This man is telling us exactly what the Bible tells us we MUST NOT do! After poor attempts to establish that “personal prophecy must be received on par with the eternal Word” — he then teaches the standard has been met if we give a passing glance on the personal character of modern prophets — and then tries say OUR ATTITUDE OF FAITH in all his faulty assumptions will be what brings about the fulfillment of personal prophecy?
Hamon can’t have it both ways. He can’t have it four or five ways either. Hamon is saying that modern personal prophecy is always conditional AND it is always true and factual? How can this be? If anyone can wrap their mind around that, let me know when roll-call is at the loony bin.
And then Hamon brings up the issue of “faith” of the receiver of the personal prophecy as an important aspect of bringing the personal prophecy to fulfillment? He has more than mixed up the argument. He has established no accountability at all for his group of “modern day prophets”.
According to Bill Hamon’s logic, Cindy Jacobs could have given the following prophecy:
“I see that you will be giving me all of your life savings in the next seven days, so that within one year, you will be coming into sevenfold increase of that amount.”
Okay. YOU have to receive that word in “faith” as the written word of God, because Cindy Jacobs is an established and recognized “presbyter of personal prophecy.” If you don’t receive that word in a positive attitude of faith, you are in the wrong, according to Hamon.
This is the Word of the Lord to you that you must receive: if you don’t give Cindy all your money, you will not get seven-fold increase in one year. So you give Cindy all your life savings.
One year passes: we all know what happens. You didn’t get the seven-fold increase. But the problem isn’t the woman who took all your cash. Nope. It is you. YOU must have not received that word in faith. You did something wrong, because the Prophet spoke the word of God to you!
But you complain: “I DID receive that word in faith! I believed the prophetic word and believed that was God telling me what to do!” No. You strike out again. Because ALL PERSONAL PROPHECY IS CONDITIONAL. You lose.
Hamon’s insanely inaccurate lies distortions and deception about modern prophecy is the way to:
1. TURN OUR MINDS INTO MUSH
2. MAKE GOD OUT TO BE A CAPRICIOUS, LYING TORMENTOR
3. FERTILIZE OUR CHURCHES FOR BRAINWASHING THROUGH FALSE PROPHETIC JEZEBELS”
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Arise:
Thanks so much for your hard work in this article and also for letting us all see it and benefit from it.
Can you please explain these statements a bit more for me please if you get a moment?
There used to be a toy, I think in the seventies, that was called a “MAGIC EIGHT BALL”. It was a large billiard type “eight-ball” filled with liquid, that had a little window on the bottom of it.
If you shook it, a small floating octagon inside the eightball would surface and appear in the little window with your “answer” to a question you asked the “Magic Eight Ball”. Kind of like fortune cookie answers. Very ambiguous. The game fell on the side of Ouija Boards for kids who took it too seriously.
I remember in the 80’s reading about the rock group The B-52’s. They did one whole album based upon answers they got from their Magic Eight Ball!
The Prophecy class I took was basically saying the same thing. There are these “impersonal answers” just waiting for us in God’s mathematical prophecy stream in the Sky. It is witchcraft, yet these people, who have been indoctrinated by Bill Hamon, actually believe this is the way Jesus wants us to “prophesy”.
By putting the onus, or responsibility of the “fulfillment” of a prophecy upon the person who received a personal word, it mixes up the argument. Whether or not a word comes from God is the true test of Prophecy.
So according to the Apostolic Prophetic Cult, you could have a word that is “True” until your own personal faith in the word fails, then it is a false prophecy!
This is brainwashing. Yet, “Bishop” Bill Hamon teaches this bile and Che Ahn, Cindy Jacobs, Todd Bentley etc., get away with their false prophecies because of the way Hamon teaches!
The SHEEP GET BLAMED FOR THE FALSE PROPHECIES. That is the evil of this.
This is nothing as to what other stuff Bill Hamon has been involved with. He has a very sincere seeming daughter, I think her name is Jill Hamon, who run a “School of the Prophets” I think in Florida. Hamon’s teachings especially attack unsuspecting charismatics who may or may not really understand what the Bible teaches on prophecy.
I will say one thing about Hamon — the same spirit that spoke to Joseph Smith, the same demon that wrote the Book of Mormon and influenced Rick Joyner to write the Final Quest — also has spoken to Bill Hamon to create this evil non Christian doctrine.
Your final question — how does Hamon capitalize upon charismatics’ fear of the End Times? Hamon believes and teaches the old Latter Rain heresy — that we NEED End Time SuperApostles and Super Prophets to give us “New Wine” (even though we still have the “New Wine” of Christ…) and “New Revelation” for the End Times.
Hamon states that we need this “New Revelation” that will basically rewrite the Word of God in order to get through the dark days of the End Times.
However, what he has actually constructed, is a Mein Kampf for the End Times.. a perfect way to brainwash the true Saints to believe the lies of the Anti Christ through his despicable teachings on prophecy.
Hamon is tricking Christians so we have no discernment of true and false prophecy now… so we will be open to accept the smooth sayings of THE False Prophet that will usher in the Anti Christ.
I knew what an eight ball was (they sell them as toys!) but thanks for explaining it for others who did not know – but what I was wanting to know was how Bill Hamon thought God was impersonal and spoke impersonal words. I am no fan of Bill Hamon or what he and his associates teaches, but to be fair, from what I understand this impersonality is not what the new prophetic camp says at all – in fact I understand them to say that direct personal words can be obtained by ‘tapping in’ at our will on demand without testing (which is a main issue here) for words that are far from impersonal and are specific and tailored to the individual from an all-knowing God.
The fact is that their words are very vague and ambiguous, unscriptural and often false in practise – but that is not so much because they teach God is impersonal, but because they cold read/prophesy falsely in the flesh or worse…and do not weigh and test.
Miriam you are right: it was the demonized person who came from Che Ahn’s Satanic Harvest Rock church originally who put this “mathematical spin” on Bill Hamon’s teachings.
You said it better than I did: “Direct personal words can be obtained by ‘tapping in’ at our will on demand without testing” or discernment was what was being taught.
I don’t say that this woman teaching was “demonized” lightly, either. In worship the night before this “teaching session”, this person burst out in such a loud MOCKING laughter while we were earnestly in holy praise, that she slapped her hand over her mouth to silence her demon.
Even then, the mocking cursing laughter came out of her mouth. I watched her struggle to control it. She could not. Because she has some insane “stature” at the church — no one in leadership even noticed this profane show. She was sweating and the more she held her hand over her mouth, the louder the mocking laughter became.
I of course , had to stop worshipping and start in against this in tongues. Everyone pretended this was NOT happening. But that woman was actually scared at the power of the Satanic force she could not control coming out of her mouth.
This said, I was completely on alert to hear what she “taught” the next day about Prophecy. Che Ahn is mainly responsible for allowing this type of demonic teaching of Bill Hamon — but the sick thing is — these Apostolic Prophetics prop up “leaders” like Hamon so as to bolster their own apparent “stature” in the church.
It is a back-slapping old boy’s club of Jezebelic teaching and prophecy. All self congratulatory and puffed up pride in their demonic nonsense that slaughters true faith and trounces their flock in their money grubbing pride.
Che Ahn needs to step down and let my Pastor and his people GO!
Cindy Jacobs needs deliverance and my church needs to be delivered from her, especially. Todd Bentley will be out here and Cindy Jacobs will be out here poisoning us from Harvest Rock in a few weeks. I ask again for prayer for this little deceived church of mine!
Arise: I have edited this a little to reflect Hamon’s true position, ok?
No, great and thanks, ETPW.
These articles do not reflect the teaching of Bill Hamon whatsoever.
Hamon brings out the Biblical admonition that the believer is responsible to fan into flame the gifts of the Spirit that have been imparted to them as described in 2Tim. 1:6 “Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.”
His ministry is focused on teaching believers how to prophecy by teaching them to stir up the prophetic gift within them. In teaching believers to prophecy, they are discouraged from sharing prophetic impressions that could be life altering until they have been seasoned in listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit long enough to clearly distinquish the voice of the Holy Spirit from the voice of one’s own human spirit.
You can receive and impartation of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. But if you do not stir yourself up to speak with tongues in the future. That will be the last time. I speak with tongues every day usually for several hours a day. It takes about ten to fifteen minutes of speaking before a strong anointing inflames me and a prophetic flow of tongues that is easily sustained comes forth. If I quit before the ten minutes, usually my mind wanders off and I will end up in random thoughts instead of a sustained season of prayer.
Prophecy, Word of Knowledge, and Word of Wisdom are gifts. The Holy Spirit does not speak with tongues or prophecy. The believer does. When the believer stirs up the gift, the Holy Spirit enables the utterance. It is possible to enter a state of prophetic enthusiasm or tongues enthusiasm; but this is the exception not the rule. The Bible teaches that believers should covet the gifts especially prophecy. God does not generally push the believers to move in the supernatural; He expects believers to be hungry and covet the presence of God for themselves and the power of God to help others. A Christian who does not covet to move in the supernatural graces of God does not walk in love; she is selfish. See 1Co 13 an exhortation to love enough to move in the gifts. Read the whole flow of though from ch 12 thru 14 to understand the connection between love and gifts. Those who heal the sick do so because they have loved enough to press in and stir up the healing gifts by praying for people without any results. Those who prophesy have stirred up the gift. Samuel learned to recognize the subtle voice of God in a time when open visions were rare. He trained up schools of prophets at Rhema, Jericho, Bethel, etc
As far as prophecy being conditional. Almost all prophecy Old and New Testament is conditional. An exception would be God’s swearing an oath upon Himself to Abram. In most cases, prophecy is conditional for the following reason:
“The bondage of the will is a false doctrine.”
Prophecy is a declaration of God’s plan for one’s life i.e., it is an encouragement about one’s high calling and potential in Christ not a declaration of what one will actually accomplish.
For example, Saul would have had a dynasty over Israel but his own rebellion caused his personal prophecies from Samuel to fail. Samuel was not a false prophet.
Again, God threatened to cut off Israel’s prophetic promise and start over with Moses but Moses talked Him out of it.
In the negative, Jonah prophecied against Ninevah but his word did not come to pass because the word was conditional (though not stated as conditional). God’s negative potential destruction of Ninevah was cancelled because of their repentance. Jonah was not a false prophet; his prophecy was conditional.
How about the verses in MT 24 where Jesus says that if you dont act like a believer you will end up being numbered with the unbelievers? His potential was cancelled. In that case the believer was beating his fellows. Sounds like the writers on this list to me.
How about the slave whose talent was taken away and he was cast into outer darkness? MT 25 Sounds like he used his will to cancel God’s promising hope for him.
How do you know if a gift is God or not? Because it impossible to ask God for tongues or prophesies or healing and receive those things from devils. Were you at a Wicca meeting when you asked from Satan? Did you ask Allah in the name of Muhammed? According to Jesus, God gives the Holy Spirit to them that ask without any chance that they are getting serpents or scorpions. Luke 11
In the New Testament, false teacher and false apostles are associated with preachers who lack supernatural power. Such as the Jewish exorcists who tried to cast out devils in Jesus name but were attacked because they did not have authority because Jesus did not send them. Lying wonders are associated with false christs who do not come in the name of Jesus. Examples of false christs are Muhammed, the Roman emperors, Rock stars, Hollywood stars, Academic naturalists.
Dear Will Godsey:
I did not notice your attempt to defend Bill Hamon until today. I see you have come under a similar delusion as Hamon does, by blurring Old Covenant ideas of Prophecy with the New.
Let me just cut off all your nonsense in defense of Bill Hamon with ONE scripture.
ACTS 19
1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
So, Will, tell me. There is no promise to “cut off the prophetic” in the New Covenant.
In the New Covenant, we are all told to be ambitious to prophesy.
This means we can obtain this gift, now.
There is no New Covenant “school of the Prophets”.
There is no need to pay for Hamon’s lame School of Prophecy.
I don’t know what you are talking about in your post, at all.
As to your idea that False Teachers are not in the Church? What are you talking about, sir? Hollywood Stars for the most part, do not teach doctrine.
Bill Hamon is anti Christ, sorry. You may have a ready Concordance, but you do not know what Hamon actually teaches nor do you understand the free gifts that are given to all of us after Pentecost.
Hamon NEVER mentions the real reason for prophecy: to combat sin so as to get us back to the Cross.
Neither do you, sir.
WILL GODSEY SAID:
As far as prophecy being conditional. Almost all prophecy Old and New Testament is conditional. An exception would be God’s swearing an oath upon Himself to Abram. In most cases, prophecy is conditional for the following reason: “The bondage of the will is a false doctrine.”
END WILL GODSEY’S QUOTE. **********************************************
Dear Will: where did you get that quote about “the bondage of the will”? Is it a Hamonism because it certainly is not in the Word.
Excuse me, SIR, but Bill Hamon teaches that all modern untested and undiscerned prophecy is conditional. UNLIKE THE BIBLE WHERE WHEN GOD GIVES A TRUE CONDITIONAL PROPHECY, HE ALWAYS STATES THE CONDITIONS FOR FULFILLMENT.
Do you know what “giving a condition” actually means?
Let me demonstrate. When God says “IF my people will humble themselves” that is a condition given at the time of the prophecy. Note the word; “if”.
The prophetic word then continues…”THEN I will heal their land.”
Note the word “Then”. You see? IF and then THEN. This is what it means to give a conditional prophecy with the conditions given at the time of the prophecy. This is the ONLY way God EVER gives true prophecy, because to do it any other way, would be cheating, lying, or not being honest as God ALWAYS IS.
Got it? That’s a conditional prophesy, with the conditions given AT THE TIME OF THE PROPHECY.
God is not a trickster and He doe not give a prophecy without clearly stating if it has conditions on it! How dare you side with Bill Hamon as did Bob Jones in 2005: “California is going to have an earthquake and fall into the ocean.”
Ooops. So when California DID NOT fall into the ocean, you know what Bob Jones said: “Oh, it is because the people repented.”
BUT THAT IS NOT THE WAY GOD GIVES PROPHETIC WORDS. Bob Jones is a liar. Jones did NOT say at the time of the prophecy “If people will pray, California will not fall into the ocean.” He said IT WOULD FALL INTO THE OCEAN.
No conditions given. Giving the fake conditions for fulfillment of a prophecy AFTER THE FACT, as Jones and his thugs on the Elijah List constantly do, is something that Bill Hamon has taught them. This is despicable. This is Anti Christ.
Do you not see the brainwashing involved here? This means, as shown in the above, that I could basically say ANYTHING I WANTED TO in the name of the Lord and if my prophecy did not come to pass, or failed, or is proved false, I am not held accountable.
But most of the time the sheep who hear or receive the prophecy are the ones held responsible if it fails! This is why Bob Jones and Rick Joyner and Bill Hamon have agreed to say that the reason their prophecies are not 100 percent accurate, it is because the SHEEP ARE NOT READY FOR 100 PERCENT ACCURACY! These men are insane, despicable liars.
Let me ask you a question: Bob Jones also stated that the most “Glory” out of Todd Bentley’s Lakeland Revival would be from the dates June 22nd to July 22nd.
Do you know what happened on July 9th, sir?
Todd Bentley “took a break” from Lakeland for one week in utter shame over being exposed in that night’s ABC Nightline show because he had no verification of any of the miracles at Lakeland. Bentley came back for one night in Kentucky and now all that month of Glory is past. S
o, what does that make Bob Jones? A FALSE PROPHET. Or would you like to blame Todd Bentley for the failed Prophecy? Or God? Take your choice, you can’t have it three ways at once. Who is at fault for Bob Jones’ false word?
How about all of the failed prophecies out of the Elijah Listers? You want to tell me that this is okay with a Holy God?
Oh, yes, I suppose you do because like Bill Hamon, ALL PERSONAL PROPHECY IS CONDITIONAL.
It is Mein Kampf for the End Times Delusion. The PERFECT WAY TO BRAIN WASH UNSUSPECTING CHARISMATICS.
******************************************************************************
WILL GODSEY SAID Prophecy is a declaration of God’s plan for one’s life i.e., it is an encouragement about one’s high calling and potential in Christ not a declaration of what one will actually accomplish. END WILL GODSEY’S POST
Again dear Will, this is just complete hogwash. I would use a stronger term, but I am a Christian. Prophecy in Bill Hamon’s evil view always has to do with God’s plan s for our lives because Hamon would like to be Satan’s emissary of CONTROLLING GOD’S TRUE PLANS FOR OUR LIVES.
But this is not the true meaning of prophecy.
Again, the Old Testament Prophets were stoned to death, for the most part, because they constantly brought up the SIN of the people. The reason the OT prophets did this was because, it is SIN that separates us from a Holy God.
Hamon’s views are fake “Christianese” gibberish. Sadly, so is your post.
May you find the real Jesus, sir. The One who died for your sins, remember?
PROPHET BILL HAMON SUPPORTS THE LAKELAND REVIVAL AND TODD BENTLY ON HIS WEB PAGE http://WWW.CIMN.NET
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I for your post. I am glad some one else see through these dark lies propegated as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Amen, Arise My Love. I paid a very severe price for attempting to be mentored by the above, and ended up in Witchcraft 101, with exercises like automatic handwriting, musical prophecies (when the music stops, turn to the nearest person and prophesy over them), and get a word about someone who left this group (aka gossip via the Holy? Spirit).
And it’s sad. There are a number of people in it that are sincerely seeking the Lord, but can’t see the forest for the trees.
Kahy – wow, automatic handwriting?
By the way I know what you mean about musical chair prophecies, I have seen it! And some of them play blind man’s bluff too!
An excellent book dealing with Hamon’s deception is “THUS SAITH THE LORD” by John Bevere.
John wsa the assistant pastor of a wellknown false prophet for a long time and writes out of a heart of love for the church. He reminds me a lot of Lee Grady.
Cheers,
Ben
John Bevere is spot on; agree with Ben.
Miriam, yes.. but of course, it’s not called that. The participants are asked, with pen and paper in hand, to pray for a word, or a thought etc. and just let the writing begin. It sounds rather innocuous, but given the foundation of pretty much using “prophecy on demand” rather than waiting on the Lord, seductive spirits enter.
The beginning of my finally being able to discern God’s grace and see it all for what is is was when, in doing the “musical chairs prophecy” exercise, I was getting words about financial prosperity – like that, nothing of substance. And then, the discernment that money was an idol in the person’s life who I had “prophesied” over. Ah, familiar spirit.
The problem is, believers who move in the prophetic sincerely want to submit, be mentored, etc. but this goes so far off balance. And what a huge price to pay once ones eyes are opened. (A very ugly deliverance for me)
Who was John Bevere under/linked to?
BILL HAMON: “It is important for us to bear witness by the Spirit with what is being spoken. We must be able not only to discern the content of what is being said, but also the spirit in which it is said (see Acts 16:16-18). Our spirits may bear witness even though our minds may not understand or our emotions may be contrary to what God is saying. We must learn to trust the inner joy and the peace of God, which passes understanding, to lead us in truth.”
This is another quote from Bill Hamon. Do do you see the deception:
“even though our minds may not understand”.
On this sentence Bill Hamon captures most of the Charismatics who do not understand that it is PRECISELY in our “minds” that we testify to the Spirit.
Hamon is a spiritual Mormon here, trying to get us to testify with a “feeling” like the Mormons do with their “burning in the bosom” testimony.
It is crucial that charismatics know how we “bear witness” to the Spirit. It is NOT through a feeling or presence, it is through agreement and understanding of our minds of the living Word.
On this one little LIE, Hamon has seduced an entire generation of charismatic Christians.
It is VERY SCARY what he teaches.
even though our minds may not understand? How else does one “understand” Bill, except through hypnotic demonic entities that take over our will?
Hamon is preaching a “minds shut, spirits open” heresy. This man is antichrist.
That is very worrying – it is saying chuck out the word of God and replace for feelings when you want to. That is charismatic church defined, isn’t it?
John Bever came out of Benny Hinn’s church in Orlando(and renounced his heretical teachings). I know it isn’t the most dependable site, but I knew this before I read it on Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bevere
I wasn’t referring to Benny Hinn as the false prophet. I think Benny is sometimes less than circumspect in his behaviour, but I don’t think he is a false prophet.
Before being youth pastor for Benny Hinn, John Bevere was working at Robert Tilton’s church. This was where he saw prophecy abused. He left Robert Tilton when he divorced and re-married in a very short space of time.
Blessings,
Ben
Ben –
Benny Hinn is known to have falsely prophesied several times.
I remember John Bevere as being very word faith, so it is good to see he has now come out of it.
Hey, hey…
Benny Hinn has said some amazingly dumb things I agree. However, unlike some of the NAR, I consider Benny Hinn to have an anointing of God on his life. I have seen many healings happen under his ministry and in his meetings. A friend of mine was healed of lung cancer when the doctors had given him 2 months left to live.
John Bevere is definitely word faith. So am I – the Bible talks about the word of faith which we preach. Jesus paid the price for our redemption from sin, sickness and poverty.
Just because we disagree with some of the definite excess in a move does not mean we are out of that move. I believe Hagin was a man of God and a wonderful Bible teacher. I believe that many of his successors have distorted the message. He said so much himself in a wonderful book called “The Midas Touch”. You should also read his book “Must Christians Suffer” where he talks about people who teach that Christians shouldn’t suffer and how this is simply not true.
I believe in increase, I don’t believe in fleecing the sheep. I believe in faith, I don’t believe in manifest Sons. I believe in healing, I don’t believe in angel dust. To be honest, if you look at the people who are Word Faith people, they reject the foolishness of the NAR and their ideas. Benny Hinn rejected Toronto as demonic and told people to stay away. Rodney Howard Browne told Todd Bentley to leave the angels away. Hagin told people to stay away from the Whaleys. In England, Colin Urquhart has preached against hunting for the river and the need to realise that the glory and goodness of God is already in you.
A wonderful site explaining this would be http://www.brothermel.com. Also http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/ which has some wonderful articles. Another preacher that would be excellent to listen to would be Colin Urquhart (www.kingdomfaith.com).
Cheers and Blessings,
Ben
When did John Bevere denounce any of this word of faith stuff?
The reason I am asking is because earlier this year (March I think) he spoke at Rhema Church in South Africa with a whole host of other word of faithers.
Conference was called, ‘Radical Christianity’. Radical in the heretical sense is what they forgot to print on the huge 12+ meter long billboard outside the church advertising the conference.
Ben – whether Benny Hinn genuinely does have an anointing or not, the guy is a proven false prophet based on what he has prophesied in the past (not just taught or said).
He is also a proven liar. And a greedy manipulator too.
RE Colin Urquhart – I have read some good books of his, and heard him preach several times, BUT also some troubling stuff there. I personally knew someone who went to his Bible/discipleship school and visited them there for a few days so saw firsthand some stuff there and also at his church in Sussex.
Deborah
Bevere didn’t reject word faith, I misunderstood Ben. He rejected what then? Just the false prophet because the false prophet was exposed by TV and went to another one as bad as, if not worse than Tilton?
When he wrote the book you quote on prophecy (which I have not read and may well be very good), where was his own discernment and where was his applying the rules – as did he not work for Benny Hinn then?
When I go out to minister in India, my main contact is a graduate from the Kingdom Faith Bible school. He is a phenomenal individual with a thriving church. If he is what the place represents, I have nothing but high esteem for it.
In fact, my own baby sister and her husband are going there soon. I am really excited for them, I think it is a wonderful opportunity.
We have been to Faith Camp about 5-6 times, and have had nothing but positive experiences.
As for John Bevere, read the book, then make a comment. Benny Hinn is not a false prophet. I am not going to defend the man, I admit that he has said some rather silly things, but no human is perfect. A friend of mine had dinner with Benny Hinn once in South Africa and was really impressed with him. This friend of mine does not impress easily, so there must be something sincere about the man.
Cheers,
Ben
Ah sorry, my question was a general question to Shaun. Never the less I understand what is going on now. I think I need some sleep before I confuse anyone even futher lol.
Ben – so whatever evidence I present to you of what Benny Hinn has prophesied that is either unscriptural or has not yet come to pass, you will not listen to it – you are decided he is not a false prophet and that’s it?
As for John Bevere, why would I need to read the book to ask the question I asked – whatever good he says about prophecy, why did he not practice and apply it re Benny Hinn or others?
You’re right, no human is perfect. But when one closely works over a considerable time period with a blatant liar, charlatan and false prophet something is wrong with their discernment or their integrity. Or both.
I was impressed by Benny Hinn when I saw him in London years ago. Means nothing except I was taken in by appearances and did not test the spirits.
Re Colin Urqhuart and Kingdom Faith Bible school. My friend was awesome too. He was awesome before he went but he did change some during it and not in a good way – but was still awesome. But that awesomeness of his character is really not the point. It was some of the attitudes and leaven I saw there at the church mixed in with the good – particularly in the school, but also horribly in the church. It was NASTY.
Is that to say it is all bad there? No, not at all, but there is a mixture. I have said some of Urqhuart’s books are very good – but is is years now since I read them.
As a comparison, Ywam has reams of heresies within and cult like aspects, but there were some really awesome wonderful people in it. I am not judging the student – nor should you, for your friend may be like he is in spite of, not because of – but rather judging the spirits, attititudes and heresies of the ministers and the movement the student went to.
I understand what you are saying, but Kingdom Faith is an organization I have close links with myself. My friend in India attributes his walk with God with Kingdom Faith and the huge amount of literature he has read while translating Christian books into Hindi and Urdu. I don’t know what nasty stuff you encountered in the church, but you have to have grace for people. When I pastored in a town in the east of England, if you had met some of the people from the church and judged me on them you would have thought I was nasty. People take time to grow and not everyone who goes to a church reflects the heart of the pastor, not at all.
I know nothing of YWAM, although I know Floyd McLung took on Mike Bickle’s church which I have always found interesting. There was a “prophetic” church in Scotland I used to go to years ago, and Floyd came and preached a powerful holiness message. Many in the church hated it because it was not gold dust and shaking and quaking. I loved it. Anything that pushes me to choose to think more like Jesus did on earth I welcome.
I have read most of the things Benny Hinn has said or done wrong. I would hate for someone to make a list of the things I have said or done wrong in my life and so would you. Benny has been under immense pressure in his life and had to deal with some difficult situations. It is not like Bentley where there is no presence of God, no preaching of the Word, no life. You can contact Benny Hinn’s ministry an order 8 CDs on holiness. Some wonderful teaching. You can read his book on the Anointing, and realise here is someone who loves the Lord and loves prayer.
John Bevere is a good man. I know the people who run his European ministry quite well – I used to go to church with them. I have heard him preach in Kingdom Faith several times and in Wales. He is honest and wants to see the church honour and respect God. He also talks highly of Benny Hinn. I don’t believe for a second he believes everything Benny does or even approves of everything Benny does. I have had mentors who have taught me so much who I don’t agree with or approve of everything they do, but I still love them and respect them as mentors who taught me a lot. My prayer life as a teenager developed through reading Benny Hinn books and I will always honour him for that. If John Bevere went through the same things I understand why he went there entirely. Benny Hinn is not Robert Tilton – not a chance.
Blessings,
Ben
Ben -
Having grace for people and saying there is leaven or other bad stuff mingled with the good there is perfectly compatible. What I saw and experienced was also from the leadership platform not just the normal crowds/students. Like I said before it is not all bad – obviously – and there are some awesome people there – or were.
YWAM have a load of dominionist and NAR rubbish mixed in with typical KC prophets rubbish and fully embraced Toronto.
Re Benny Hinn – this is not a list about what he has done wrong or right in his life that has been repented of. This is about deliberate and wilful sin he continues to perpetuate and has not repented of and his charlatanism and deliberate lies to millions and robbing the flock. And some false prophecies that were not only unscriptural but failed to come to pass. If Benny Hinn truly loved God he would not act as he has for years (I John). So what if God really does show up at the meetings? The man is not qualified for ministry based on scriptural standards.
I do not understand why you refuse to apply the biblical plumbline to Hinn – perhaps because you have felt anointed or blessed by him? By the way not only did I go and see Hinn live, I have also read some of his books inc ‘The Anointing’ and ‘Good Morning Holy Spirit’. I have also seen Yongi Cho live.
By the sounds of it you are tolerating much sin and making excuses for it – why? Even if Hinn was a true prophet then his sin would not be acceptable for him to remain in ministry without acknowledgement repentence and restoration. But he is also a false prophet to boot,
Re John Bevere – this is no about good men or sincerity. It is about true prophets and teachers. I have know good men badly led astray. The issue is – this guy writes a good book about the prophetic, so I am told, yet fails to apply it to Benny Hinn and to others in the word faith movement. Why not?
Probably because many in the Word Faith movement are not false prophets.
Cheers,
Ben
But many he has/is linked to ARE proven prophets.
Are you going to defend Benny Hinn after everything he has done?
Do you allow yourself as a pastor the same excuses – “been through a lot” to rob from the flock, lie, decieve, falsely testify and falsely prophesy, curse etc etc and live a really greedy lavish lifestyle? Are you saying you would let this man loose in your church? Really? I thought you loved your flock, Ben.
Ben,
Benny Hinn claims to be a god. While I didn’t go through the entire list [it's been awhile since I've checked this out], just check #s 9, 12, 18, 24, 26, 32, 35 & 40. I think that should be enough:
http://www.iam-iam-iam.com/atlantis/forum15/210.html
That was a very harsh thing to say, Miriam. You don’t know me or how I live, yet you would question my love for people who you also don’t know. It sounds very presumptive.
Lee,
Jesus said we are gods. He then said Scripture cannot be broken. I am not God. I am not the I AM. But I am a god. I was created to have dominion over the earth. I have free will, I have creative power.
Blessings,
Ben
Ben,
Please explain what you mean when you say “Jesus said we are gods” with chapter and verse. Also, I’d like to know what you mean when you state “I have creative power.”
Thanks in advance.
Ben –
How was it a harsh thing to say? I asked you an honest question, saying despite Benny Hinn’s many unrepented sins, false teaching and false prophecy, would you let them loose on your flock? I really do want to know that, and also how you could justify it as it would not be either loving or protecting or prospering them. I am not saying you do not love them by the way – BUT can you see what I am actually getting at? WHY would you do it? WHY would you let wolves in to savage the lambs?
You have thus given your impression as a man seeking after truth and God’s heart and loving your flock (I do not question your sincerity but I do question some of your theology), yet I cannot reconcile your making excuses for Benny Hinn, or allowing him to minister to the flock, if your answer to the question is “yes” you would allow him in. I would also like to know how “he has been through a lot” is an excuse to tolerate his abysmal behaviour without rebuke or separation. A false prophet is a false prophet Ben, surely?
It is possibly a blind spot of yours because you have had good anointed experiences/Benny Hinn is so well thought of etc etc in certain circles – but regardless, you ignore the word of God for your experiences or others opinions, and I am trying to understand why you would tolerate this when God says to have nothing to do with such men?
I am also curious why you would call Tilton a false prophet, and not Benny Hinn. Because Tilton was caught by TV? or?
Tilton is now on his third wife. Benny is not. That is my main issue.
Would I “let” Benny loose on my flock? I just don’t see it like that. Would I crawl over broken glass to hear Benny Hinn like I would to hear Andrew Wommack or Curry Blake? No.
Would I discourage someone from going? No. I teach my people well. They know the word of faith and they know what they have in Christ. They know how to have life prosperity and live the kingdom life, and to live heaven in earth. Some may go and be healed. Most would go (and I know this from experience) and say: there are so many immature Christians around! Why don’t they stand on the Word to be healed and life a healthy life?! Thank you for teaching us the Word and how to have a living relationship with the living God.
When I say Benny has been through a lot I mean that many, many people have tried to manipulate him, criticize him, and “take him down”. When Benny sticks to what he is called to do: evangelise and heal it is wonderful. When he moves away from that there is problems. I know that. But there are times when someone is a spiritual father to you, and when he gets drunk you have to cover his nakedness – not tell the whole world about it.
To be honest, if you were in my church I would now be saying to you: let’s not waste time speaking about Benny. Let’s get on with the kingdom life. Which three people are you evangelizing at the moment so I can start praying for boldness for you to witness to them? Is there any Scripture you don’t understand within your reading plan that I can pray for wisdom and revelation for you? I am called to develop a faith filled cell church in London. I am not here as Benny Hinn’s defender (*or accuser*!).
Cheers,
Ben
Ben -
So you called Tilton a false prophet because he is on his third wife, and not for the greed and manipulation that he was actually brought down for or his actual teachings or prophecies?
@ Lee,
JOHN 10:34-36
Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods?
So men are called gods [by the Law], men to whom God’s message came–and the Scripture cannot be set aside or cancelled or broken or annulled– [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?
This is the Scripture I am referring to. It is the only time in the gospels Jesus takes the time to tell us that the Scripture cannot be broken: when he tells us that men are gods. Do you not know your gospels, Lee? You must read your Scriptures and learn what they teach to be able to live free in this world. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and without faith it is impossible to please God. People are saved by faith, healed by faith, prosper by faith, made pure by faith. Get into the Word – it will show us who we are in Christ and what God sees when He sees us. It shows us how wonderful the Lord is.
Creative power is very simple to define: power to create. Jesus said I will receive power to be a witness. You do know that the same power that raised Christ from the dead is inside you? You can create your reality, create your life with the words that you say, with the things that you do and with the seed that you sow. If you read Psalm 84 (the context of Jesus’ comment that men are gods), then you will see that men as gods are supposed to care for the poor and the weak. You have the power to rescue the poor and the needy. I have seen people released from thousands of pounds of debt through teaching them the Word. I have seen people who could not work healed and now they work. I have seen marriaged completely restored. Why? I am a god – I teach the Word, I speak the Word and I bring life with me wherever I go.
I didn’t do this myself. It is all the grace and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Without him I AM NOTHING. But I never have to be without him and without what He has made me through His grace and sacrificial death and glorious resurrection!
Blessings,
Ben
Miriam,
This conversation about true and false prophets is becoming fruitless. Neither Bob Tilton or Benny Hinn are anyway near my flock and I am not their ruler. Let’s talk about advancing the kingdom.
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben
Where is this in the Bible please (in the correct context) re covering up the dirty deeds and bad teachings and false prophecies of false prophets and false teachers and cheats and charlatans?
[Putting a blanket over someone's private bits when they are naked and drunk and showing the world their glory, and being made fun of by another, is completely out of context.]
Are you saying it is right to COVER UP after men like Benny Hinn? And not only cover up, but not rebuke him, and not speak out and warn others?
What if you were one of the ones manipulated to give money to Benny Hinn in South Africa a few weeks ago to become an overnight millionaire, as prophesied, and had literally given all you had and stolen the bread from your childrens mouths to do so? Are you and others like you not partly culpable for the suffering of these people in their poverty now, betrayed by false promises, if you consistently and persistantly cover up for men like Hinn’s shame and refuse to warn? And how does Hinn spend that money that can be so much for many folk like a huge chunk of their salary or everything if they are foolish – on himself in lavish living, that’s what!
And please tell me how covering up for someone’s deception like this helps anyone, particularly the majority – the flock? Sure it helps the corrupt leaders, but in any other language this is called CORRUPTION and nepotism.
Wow. Just wow. No wonder the church is in such a mess – cover ups galore. I have seen all too much of it. It is stinky and filthy and not right and you are PART of this? Oh, the Lord rebuke you, brother!
YOU ARE called to rebuke false prophets and teachers and keep your church away from wolves by warning them where necessary and teaching truth to balance and undergird. That is part of true healthy living.
I just grieve about your comment and current attitudes. It really is hard to believe – but then its not, as I have seen it time and time again.
It is not wasting time to discuss this, as you are grievously in error and indeed in sin. This is not just about Benny Hinn.
You see, I struggle to see the fruit of the spirit in someone who says “the Lord rebuke you”, that I am grievously in error and in sin. You can call me part of a stinky filthy mess if it makes you feel better, but I know the people around me are being delivered, being encouraged and being challenged to live in health, wealth, holiness and glory.
My original offer to you still stands.
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben
I asked you to defend your current thinking and your actions by the word of God, and you ignore it by switching tack and subject and you well know it.
Please, please explain to me how you can defend this vileness.
I do not, and have not, called you a stinking filthy mess. (I have actually said nice things about you ). But it is true that the corruption and coverups are stinking and filthy deeds of darkness, and much of the church is in a mess because of this and other things. It is true too that what you are doing is grievously in error – as per the word of God, not my word – and it is wrong and sinful. You deserve rebuked for you are in the wrong. Rebuking is not biblically wrong and you also should know this. Rather not rebuking is biblically wrong.
How does saying this to you lack the fruit of the Spirit please? Would you have said the same about the early church leaders who spoke out about false teachers etc – that they lacked the fruit of the Spirit? And what of Jesus in the temple turning over the tables of the money changers?
Please also explain where in the word of God it says coverups and concealing sin in leaders – in anyone – are a fruit of the spirit?
This is not about people living in ‘health, wealth, holiness and glory’ – this is about TRUTH, biblical truth, and without truth your people are in danger. You are ignoring the issue here, Ben – why?
I am not feeling better. I feel really really grieved.
I am not changing tack. I am making an offer to you in love.
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
I appreciate the offer Ben, but I would appreciate if you could answer the main questions raised, otherwise this offer in love proves diversionary.
Ben,
Listen to this testimony >>>>
http://www.intotruth.org/wof/mytest.html
Steve………..
No, discussing Benny Hinn is the diversion. Helping each other extend the kingdom of God is the main thing in life.
Your calling is to preach the gospel to the nations and to know Him. You can only know Him through the Word, not through experience or feelings.
Maybe you have made a mistake Miriam and made a diversion the real thing and the real thing a diversion. Let’s focus on what is truly important in the kingdom of God:
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben – the main issue is not about Benny Hinn. It is about YOU defending coverups and false prophets etc? That is not diversionary, it is crucial.
ps I am still waiting to hear the word of God from you to defend your position on coverups?
@Steve,
I have read Tillin’s testimony. It is such a shame that she should fail to realise the truth of the Word of God. Her objections to the faith movement are not Biblically founded. Tillin herself mysteriously quit the ministry without any explanation a number of years ago.
I thoroughly recommend:
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/tenrsn/ten_reasons.html
And reading through the wonderful book:
GRACE: The Power of the Gospel, by Andrew Wommack.
Cheers,
Ben
Who am I defending?
I just simply have a difference of opinion about you – you consider Benny Hinn to be a false prophet. I don’t.
Let’s get on with doing some kingdom work!
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben
But you do not have a biblical position on false prophets because I said I could provide evidence Benny Hinn is a false prophet by biblical standards and you will not hear it or change you mind about him – why? Because of your experiences or others opinions? Regardless, isn’t giving one man extra rope or favour over another and showing partiality for leaders, corrupt and sinful?
I also asked on what basis Tilton was a false prophet and you gave an unbiblical reasoning for it. Though being on a third wife indicates most likely sin, it does not make him a false prophet by default. He was a false prophet for other reasons.
How do YOU define a false prophet?
Real kingdom work involves guarding the sheep from wolves like Benny Hinn as well as evangelism and healing etc. Obeying and giving the whole counsel of God. And not covering up sin for anyone, especially for those in the leadership. Please give me a biblical defence for covering up what Benny Hinn does. And not speaking out about false prophets like Hinn. Why do you ignore a large part of the content of the “pastoral epistles”?
And why continue to ignore my questions?
How would you FEEL if you were one of those in South Africia at the moment who had been fleeced, – feel about not only Hinn, but men like you who cover up for him?
Dear Ben:
All this “gods” talk reminds me of the research I did on Mormons years ago, who, similarly to your arguments, seen to think it means something outside the Greek or Hebrew lexicon — and fail to remember how Satan used this idea as the first and best trap for mankind: Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
“Apart from Me you can do nothing” is the scripture that comes to mind. ‘He is the vine, we are the branches, all of our fruitfulness comes from Him” are some other verses that come to mind.
Both the Hebrew and Greek terms for “gods” in this sense that you are misinterpreting mean “MAGISTRATE”.
We have been given authority by God to do His will and ONLY His will.
We have no creative power to do anything apart from God. So our “godliness” which is the real translation of the term, is only ‘creative” in so much as He deigns it and wills it.
In other words, there is no power in my words or your words apart from God.
Faith is not a separate element or entity, separate from God.
Again, that was Satan’s sin and Satan’s lie to mankind that caused the Fall.
How insane Satan is to think that he could dispossess God, who holds the whole universe together… it is a suicide pact to try to claim God’s power or creative force apart from the Lord.
This idea, that I suppose is warp and woof of that “word faith” movement of the 80’s, is dangerous in that it is the precursor to the Apostolic Prophetic Mindset.
For example, on another forum, some blogger was accusing me of incurring a curse on myself or others for putting down the Apostolic Prophetics.
I reminded that person that “a curse without cause will NOT alight” and that we are not to be afraid to speak the truth as Jesus taught, when dealing with demonic doctrines and false prophets. I then reminded her that the Apostolic Prophetics are not even Christians, anyway, but unbelievers and false teachers, so her points were moot.
As for Miriam, she is evangelizing a whole bunch of people… the Apostolic Prophetics! And they need to hear her. Hey, Miriam is even strengthening my faith after four years with that culty mindset.
Thanks again Miriam, for being a “magistrate” of God’s creative power and authority on this site as you increase the faith of those who read it. I pray that you will have increased faith and energy to do His will.
Miriam,
It is fairly clear you have a rather poor understanding of what kingdom work is. Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons and preached the gospel. Then he taught the kingdom to people using parables. The most important parable is the parable of the sower. This says that you need to sow the Word into people’s hearts to have a harvest.
Forgetting our disagreement about Benny Hinn for a minute, and whether having three marriages makes someone a false prophet (I am fairly surprised you don’t think it does!), the Bible is clear: if you want a harvest you need to sow a seed.
When I preach, pastor and minister life to people I have to sow the Word of God. It is the teaching of the Word that produces faith. I don’t get up and say: here is my new four part sermon “Brother X is a false prophet”. I preach life. I preach the Word. At times where there are popular opinions, such as angel Emma, or the purpose-driven life ideals or people who are anointed chasing anointings, I mention situations and names and deal with error.
But my main business, as should be yours, is to build up people, help them preach the gospel and help them know God through the Word.
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben
Your a spiritual bully and that’s the real issue with you!
An Ode To Biblical Truth
(author unknown)
And now my friend, let’s just pretend,
that for the faith we shan’t contend.
Hold hands in joy and charity,
Our New Age love for all to see.
And shouts are heard: ”no division please!”
“And don’t expose those heresies!”
“Falseness can’t dwell in God’s own camp,
So hush up now, put out that Lamp!”
And Satan comes not in disguise,
enticing men to spread his lies.
And Paul was wrong, we all do deem,
His talk of a whip was too extreme.
And snatching one from out the fire,
doesn’t hurt at all, you misled liar.
And Jesus was all wrong, you see,
To rebuke the evil Pharisee.
Let’s focus on the world outside,
No need to examine the Church, the Bride.
But if you find false teachings of another,
You must be quiet and call him your brother.
Maintain the peace and harmony,
Now that’s what Jesus meant by unity.
You’d get more results if you hold their hand,
and coddle them toward the Promised Land.
You mustn’t make false teachers flee,
and each age never ends in apostasy.
For evil isn’t found in God’s own abode,
Nor a man’s enemies found in his own household.
Steve.
And with love Ben, because it is obvious you know the word, and i did like how you mentioned “Do not call conspiracy what they call conspiracy” on another thread… one of my fave scriptures…
But Ben, do you understand that Miriam is dealing with the End Time Delusion here?
This is not twenty years ago. This is THE judgment of the Joel 2 deluded anti Christ Army that God promises He will send against His own people.
She is doing a very difficult job. She is peeling off layers of apostasy and AntiChrist doctrines to try to “Spare” a few as per the priests of Joel 2 who cried out to God against the judgment of delusion.
Agree with me now Ben: Lord God, SPARE THY PEOPLE! Lord, open veiled eyes to the danger of this anti christ doctrine.
Lord strengthen our minds and our hands to do Your will before the desolation of abomination comes! Help us Lord. Purify us Lord God.
..isn t the reason that Ben has his stand on Hinn the way he does, because of his own..misconception of ‘being god ‘..?
- maybe that is what you feel admin
misconception because the ‘I ’should be terminated alltogether
Ben
Not from the Bible’s perspective. I could give you numerous scriptures to show you should publically rebuke those in error and publically warn re false prophets and teachers, not show nepotism, and not cover up.
You say we should build up, but sometimes in order to build up, one needs to take down shaky structures and relay the foundations – as you should well know. And you also know criticism and rebuke can be the best thing as it builds up and encourages and protects in the long run.
What is the best way to build up a sheep being savaged by a wolf (apart from not letting the wolf into the pen anyway, and urging the sheep to be aware of the wolf and telling them what a wolf looks like?) It would be to shout a warning ‘wolf!’ to the sheep so the sheep can stop getting bitten by the wolf – and metaphorically chase away or take down the wolf as a good shepherd.
Also, please tell me how is the best way to build up a brother in South Africa at the moment that has been fleeced by Benny Hinn? Or the numerous other folk in other places?
I have asked you for scripture and you have refused to give any – why? Because you cannot defend the indenfensible but will continue to try and change tack [I know full well what the tack is, trying to infer evangelism is more important than refuting false teachers - but you are ignoring the whole counsel of God and distorting the message and the ministry if so].
If you have read my other posts, other teaching, other pastoral, evangelism, healing, other prophetic and other ministry is VITAL and is kingdom work too – but you are neglecting the whole counsel of God and more than that are being sinful as discussed - if you fail to warn, speak out and protect your flock, and also continue to cover up for the sins and failures of the ‘elite’.
P.S. I will answer your question about money.
I have never, in all my Christian life, regarded money I have given to a ministry as being “fleeced”. I love giving money to ministries.
When I was about to be kicked out of Bible College for being £300 behind in my fees, I gave away my last £50 to Jerry Savelle. Within two weeks, someone put £1000 in £50 notes through my letterbox and I completed my final year of college.
When I was starting college, I had no income and no money. A complete stranger came round my house, gave me an oven and fitted it. We lived out of our small savings (at that time it was me, my wife and our first baby). The Holy Spirit told me to start giving £10 per month to Jesse DuPlantis ministries. Lol – I ignored the Lord as I felt I needed £10 more than Jesse did. I didn’t even know that all money given in the UK stays in the UK for mission.
After three months, we were down to our last £30. God told me to give it all to JDM for the last 3 months £10 a month. I told the Lord I would starve if I did. He told me that I would starve anyway, and that I should starve obeying. So I gave away my last money in the world to JDM.
Within 2 hours an old friend phoned. He said he had to apologize to me. I said why? He said that three months ago the Lord had told him to start giving me £60 a month to go to Bible College. He refused. He said that night the glory of God was so strong on him, that he had to give. I had the £180 in back payment from him the next day. God is good! He is faithful to His word.
The first time I went to see John Avanzini, I put £10 in the offering. An absolute fortune to me then, I can assure you. In fact, I couldn’t get back from the meeting because it would have been my train fare.
As I put the money in the bucket, John Avanzini walked up to me and told me that my offering would be multiplied back to me 100-fold in the form of the desires of my heart.
At that time, the desires of my heart was for a car. We walked everywhere, and when you have an itinerant ministry a car is an essential, not a luxury.
Within a month, a couple (a pastor and his wife) came to us and told us that they didn’t agree with our faith or our life, but that they could not sleep because God kept waking them up and telling them to give their car to us. I said I would only take the car if I could pray for them to receive a brand new car. They refused. I told them to go back to sleepless nights and they agreed. I prayed for them.
They said I needed to know the value of the car for insurance purposes. I said I knew the value of the car was £1000. They were incredulous: how could we know? Simple maths, I said.
Within two weeks a parishoner from one of their old churches bought them a brand new car.
God is so good. I never feel fleeced when I give to the kingdom of God. Giving to God doesn’t cost, it pays. Go and read Luke 6.38.
Blessings,
Ben
PS This is just the tip of the iceberg, I could talk about the provision of God all night long.
God has given me 4 cars in the last 10 years and the best is yet to come
I am not implying that evangelism is more important than exposing false teachers. I am saying it outright. I do streetwork and door to door regularly. I don’t meet people who are sitting at home watching Benny Hinn all deceived by him. I meet people who are sitting at home watching Eastenders, ill people, sick people, people about to divorce, people who are lonely, suicidal, taking drugs.
They don’t need me knocking on their door and saying “See this guy on God TV, sometimes he says things wrong”. They need me to tell them: “There is life in the Word of God. Can I spend some time every week in your house studying the Word with you and watching you find out God is real. Bring your friends and let’s do it.”
Now, you have continually refused to tell me who you are evangelizing. I am trying to be kind and put it down to the fact that you don’t really understand the key issues in the kingdom. However, I wonder if you actually are not sharing the Word and preaching the gospel to the unsaved at all. That would be a very unbalanced ministry indeed, and nothing like any New Testament ministry that existed in any way.
I assume that is not true. And I do care about you and want to see you extend God’s kingdom because that is where real joy is found.
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben
You missed my point. This is not about giving to God.
Giving to God is wonderful (though the motives to give are distorted in a lot of word faith teaching, so as to get back financially, which ain’t biblical, and is selfish and self centred and there is way too much focus on mammon or wealth in the whole word faith movement).
You are confusing YOU genuinely being told to give by God versus you being falsely prophesied to give by a greedy and manipulative false lying prophet claiming that the Lord spoke to Him that you should give to HIM so you can be blessed.
Seed faith is really a bastard gospel. It is about greedy preachers manipulating people to give to them money with false promises, because I guarantee you those folk in South Africa did not become overnight millionaires as promised at the recent Benny Hinn crusades. That is fleecing whether you ‘feel’ it or not. How do you feel about that? I mean really?
And you still ain’t answered the main questions which are about tolerating false prophets and covering up sin in leaders.
So your in it for the money Ben ?
The end justifies the means, give up your little kingdom and stop trying to bully Miriam.
Steve.
Ben,
This is the Scripture I am referring to. It is the only time in the gospels Jesus takes the time to tell us that the Scripture cannot be broken: when he tells us that men are gods. Do you not know your gospels, Lee? You must read your Scriptures and learn what they teach to be able to live free in this world. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and without faith it is impossible to please God. People are saved by faith, healed by faith, prosper by faith, made pure by faith. Get into the Word – it will show us who we are in Christ and what God sees when He sees us. It shows us how wonderful the Lord is.
I figured you’d be refering to the John verses which I’ll restate here:
34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods?’ 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
Ben, sure I know the Gospels; but, I’m not sure you have an understanding of this passage. You totally miss the point, in fact. Since Jesus is speaking to experts in the Law he knew they would understand that he was referring to Psalms 82:6:
5 “They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance. [Psalms 82:5-8 NIV]
Note in verse 6 above that “gods” is in quotes. These verses are speaking of rulers/judges who were appointed by God. These were referred to as ‘gods.’ So, since the Pharisee’s were calling Jesus a blasphemer, why didn’t they refer to the rulers/judges as blasphemers? The answer is that they were only ‘gods’ in a figurative, not literal, sense.
On the other hand, Jesus proclaimed his Divinity:
36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” [John 10:36-38 NIV]
Here Jesus is comparing and contrasting what He was doing as the Son of God — the miracles — and what the rulers/judges had done. This passage does not assert that anyone besides God is a god.
Therefore, you Ben, Benny Hinn or the others who claim they are gods are wrong. There is only ONE GOD.
Context, Ben, context.
If evangelising, of course the discussion is not going to be about Benny Hinn and false prophets and teachers – unless one is evangelising someone caught up into a “Christian” cult or sect, or one has fallen away or been hurt and abused or lost faith because of these men and their wicked schemes – and there are MANY such people.
I have frequently encountered when evangelising, doing street work and door to door, and other, that a common reason first given in the UK for not becoming a Christian is because “Christians are hypocrits” or “nuts” and are deluded because they will believe anything (because of believing showmen like Benny Hinn). Benny Hinn and men like him is a huge reason for many people not to come into the kingdom, and for some to fall away. And many more to get hurt.
Of course evangelism is important and a huge focus of the church. BUT context is critical as nobody would say that prayer or teaching or prophecy or pastoral work is negated or less necessary or less important – nor in warning against false teachers. Remind me how long Paul warned the church with tears and for what reason? He preached the whole counsel of God, you do not. By your reckoning here, that time could have been better spent evangelising. Read the pastoral epistles again and tell me how you can skip whole chunks out of that as TEACHING is critical ministry work too, just as important as evangelism.
You have the cheek to criticise me (without evidence) for an unbalanced ministry, Ben? And you have the cheek to quote the NT but not to follow it but instead have a pick and mix mentality? I still not have had any scripture from you defending cover ups or explaining what a false prophet is, and how one is excused from tolerating them and exposing the flock to them.
I have not answered your questions yet re who I am evangelising, because of your motivation for asking them, which is mainly to undermine and divert from the questions and are not as genuine and sincere at heart as you imply.
Seed faith is Biblical.
(Your language is rather rude hear. I have young sons who use the internet and I would not want them to see the language you use, thank you.)
I am not confusing anything, by the way. God is a gracious and kind God. He loves us, and He loves a cheerful giver. If someone gets up and says “everyone give £1000″, and people give because someone says and not because God says, God won’t punish them.
Now, faith is line upon line and precept upon precept. You cannot believe for a million pounds if you have never believed for a tenner. No way. In addition, we cannot use an event of faith as a substitute for the process of faith.
Remember I am a pastor, and I see people week after week after week. I don’t fly into town and fly out of town. Faith is a process. You cannot increase if you cannot tithe, if you don’t know who you are in Christ. If you haven’t dealt with the strongholds in your mind.
Putting pressure on someone to give £1000 before they are ready to is foolishness, it can set their faith back and disaffect them.
If someone in my church had been in S.A. and if the situation there happened how you describe it, I would stand in faith with them for a return on their giving as per the Bible. God would honour our faith and agreement. Giving to the gospel pays off.
You have to be really careful saying people are being ripped off. Discouraging people from giving is not a good idea. The closed fist approach to giving always leads to poverty.
I would help them with their monthly budget, ensure they were paying off their debts high interest first and tithing (as a love response to the goodness of God rather than a legal requirement).
I would find out where their faith was, and help them realize that faith grows in steps. First the ear, then the corn, the the full corn. I would explain that those who desire to get rich fall into all sorts of traps and that, although the Bible is so clear that God wants you prosper materially, it is as your soul prospers. I would get them some good Kenneth Hagin or Andrew Wommack tapes on faith and renewing the mind and get them to listen to them.
What would happen next? The person would probably not really go back to Benny Hinn meetings. They would learn how to receive from God for themselves. They could realise that the presence of God was there all the times, and they would know how to live healthy as the Bible promises – so they wouldn’t need to really go to a healing crusade. They would know how to share their faith with people for themselves so they wouldn’t take them to a crusade.
They would essentially grow out of the Benny Hinns of this world. All done without me having to criticise anyone. I would much rather go to someone like Andrew Wommack who teaches you how to live the Word for yourself than go to an anointed meeting where the glory is, but once you leave the meeting you are not any more knowledgeable than when you started.
So, now I have answered your questions:
Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben,
Creative power is very simple to define: power to create. Jesus said I will receive power to be a witness. You do know that the same power that raised Christ from the dead is inside you? You can create your reality, create your life with the words that you say, with the things that you do and with the seed that you sow. If you read Psalm 84 (the context of Jesus’ comment that men are gods), then you will see that men as gods are supposed to care for the poor and the weak. You have the power to rescue the poor and the needy. I have seen people released from thousands of pounds of debt through teaching them the Word. I have seen people who could not work healed and now they work. I have seen marriaged completely restored. Why? I am a god – I teach the Word, I speak the Word and I bring life with me wherever I go.
I didn’t do this myself. It is all the grace and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Without him I AM NOTHING. But I never have to be without him and without what He has made me through His grace and sacrificial death and glorious resurrection!
Yes, I figured you were adhering to the Word of Faith heresy. While there is a certain amount of truth, Hinn, Copeland, et al take it to an extreme believing, or at least teaching, that one can make things up out of thin air thereby being co-creators with God. Uh, uh. Yes, we have power through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; BUT, we do not command God to do anything. We ask and if it’s in His Will, then HE will accomplish it THROUGH us.
We don’t ‘create’ our own reality with our ‘words’ – that’s nothing but “positive confession” nonsense. And, for the record, it’s Psalm 82, not 84 which has the original reference Jesus speaks of the John 10 verses. Yes, according to the verses those that God has put in charge are “gods” in a figurative sense as I explained in my post previous to this one but not literally.
I am glad you realize that whatever God does through you did not do yourself. However, you do not have the power to create something from nothing – a point I want to make clear for other readers who may get the wrong understanding. Even the Holy Spirit inside of you will not create something from nothing. He will give you the power to accomplish things that are in His Will, yes; but, again, you cannot create from nothing. It’s like when Marilyn Hickey speaks money into her wallet yet she continually has to ask for ‘seed’ donations into her ministry. Why doesn’t she just keep proclaiming more money for herself? Hinn, of course, does the same thing. Heretics!
The ‘seed’ that is sown in the Gospels refers to the Gospel message NOT good works or anything else ESPECIALLY money given with the express purpose of expecting a return.
Just to add, and I mean this:
I was not being critical when I said that your ministry might be unbalanced. Certainly your obsession with Benny Hinn and having me say he is a false prophet is a bit unbalanced. I said very clearly that you *might* have an imbalance in your ministry.
You then said “I have the cheek to say that”. I am assuming that you do not think that you are infallible or that you do not have more to learn about the ministry of Jesus.
If you have more to learn, then it is not too much of a leap for you to be able to admit that in some areas you probably are imbalanced, as we all are. But you don’t do that, you get upset at me.
You accuse me of being disingenuous and insincere. How can you presume to judge my heart? I simply want you to refocus on some very important issues. I will genuinely pray for you in these areas.
I see little of the fruit of the spirit in telling someone they don’t obey the New Testament. The Holy Spirit is so specific in dealing with people. I am not saying I am perfect, but then I am not the one saying how dare you have the cheek to comment on me.
If you genuinely think I am being cheeky and insincere, I have to tell you that you are wrong. I am concerned about you if anyone disagrees with you that you would respond in such a way.
Three times you have accused me of evading your questions. Yet, you refuse to let me pray for you with knowledge to help you extend the kingdom. Instead you falsely accuse me of insincerity.
I see little of the fruit of the spirit in that, my sister.
Ben
So it’s basically perfectly Ok for leaders to rip people off, manipulate them and lie to them that God spoke to them to give to them, because the flock will be honored for giving anyway?! And the lying leader at the end of the day is only doing God’s work and helping them to have faith to get rich so it’s all good?!
And its ok for a word faith leader to lie and falsely prophesy, cheat, mishandle money and spend it on lavish living, and you guys to cover up for him?
That you are not grieved by this, and furthermore justify it and cover up for it is really disgraceful. WOW, just wow.
‘Bastard’ is a strong word. But seed faith is indeed a bastard gospel. It is an illegimate teaching that has no part in God, and is frequently used by greedy men to further their own ends and their own kingdoms, and to prey on the flock.
I am not discouraging people from giving – don’t twist what I have said – but if people give, it should be from the heart or because God told them to, and they should give to give, and not in expectation to get back like some kind of lottery ticket or spiritual bet.
Please defend seed faith to me biblically? Also you have not given any biblical defenses or answers re the main point re cover ups and false prophets, and I keep on asking.
Ben,
If you’re referrin to Miriam’s use of the word “bastard” you need to read the definition from dictionary.com:
1. a person born of unmarried parents; an illegitimate child.
2. Slang. a. a vicious, despicable, or thoroughly disliked person: Some bastard slashed the tires on my car.
b. a person, esp. a man: The poor bastard broke his leg.
3. something irregular, inferior, spurious, or unusual.
4. bastard culverin.
–adjective 5. illegitimate in birth.
6. spurious; not genuine; false: The architecture was bastard Gothic.
7. of abnormal or irregular shape or size; of unusual make or proportions: bastard quartz; bastard mahogany.
8. having the appearance of; resembling in some degree: a bastard Michelangelo; bastard emeralds.
9. Printing. (of a character) not of the font in which it is used or found.
You’ll notice most of these refer to things not genuine or false.
Here are synonyms, all applicable to Miriam’s point:
—Synonyms 6. fake, imitation, imperfect, sham, irregular, phony.
Ben,
Why would you lead someone to Kenneth Hagin as if he’s better than Hinn? Hagin is the ‘father’ of the whole Word of Faith heresy who himself stole the teachings from E.W. Kenyon.
@ Lee (post #66)…
I cannot actually believe that you are building your Biblical argument on imaginary quote marks. I assume that you are aware that there is no such punctuation as quote marks within Biblical Hebrew.
Of course there is only one GOD. But I am a god. There is only one SON OF GOD. But I am a son of God. There is only one ANOINTED ONE. But I am an anointed ONE. There is only one KINGS of KINGS. But I am a king. I am not GOD. I am a god. Please don’t misinterpret what I am saying, and please don’t add to Scripture.
Cheers,
Ben
@ Steve (post #65),
How you can accuse me of only being in it for the money I am not sure! How would you possibly know? I could have been a medical doctor earning 4 times what I currently earn. I am not for one reason – obedience to God. I have given away everything I own 5 times. God loves me, and has provided me with every good thing to enjoy. But none of it means a thing compared to the joy of knowing Him. It is not a bad thing to abound. Paul said “I know how to abound”. So do I. I love being able to go into a church and give a pastor a large sum of money. I love being able to send a single mum on holiday who otherwise could not go. Money is a wonderful tool, Steve. If you don’t want yours, send it to me. I will do something useful with it.
I am going now. I don’t want my sons to see the kind of language Miriam is using.
I will pray for boldness for her as she evangelizes and that she has wisdom as she reads the Word.
Blessings,
Ben
..is this about Faith being used as a tool
- but to what ?
Ben
I have never said I am perfect and know it all, not do I claim to be perfectly balanced, as who is? I have often said to people I do not mind people questioning me or saying negative stuff about me (if true) as I do not consider myself either above rebuke – if it is earned – or criticism if it is fair.
I have not spoken as I have because you “disagree” with me, nor because you “comment on me”. I said it because of the evident hypocrisy in the remark in question based on the discussion to date.
What I said about you having the ‘cheek’ was because of what YOU have been neglecting and disobeying and ignoring in the NT (and OT) which was a huge inbalance of yours, and you saying I had or ‘might’ have an inbalance was hypocritical in that light, especially as you had no evidence of it. [Do you really, really need me to show you the numerous scriptures or point you to the pastoral epistles yet again where it says to contend for the faith against false teachers etc? Balance and context, Ben!]
I do not have an ‘obsession’ with Benny Hinn but I keep asking you the same questions (which are not just about Hinn but your attitude in general re false prophets) as you keep ignoring them or bringing up diversionary tactics. You have STILL refused to answer why you will not consider him to be a false prophet when presented with evidence he is, and why you will continue to ignore the word of God to this end. WHY? And how you can defend cover ups when the word of God says such men should be publically named and rebuked.
I have also asked you how you define a false prophet as you do not seem to have a clear idea if you think being married three times means one is a false prophet. I am not defending the probable sinfulness and adultery that was probably present for this to occur, but adultery does not equal false prophecy by default, though they are frequently linked. I ask again, what is a false prophet in your book?
It seems that Tilton was decided a false prophet when his greed and charlatanism and lies was outed by the media. Does it take a secular media for his cohorts to decide who is and is not a false prophet – one who is exposed? As long as it is hidden it is OK? That is stinking hypocrisy if so.
I have also asked you how my rebuking or criticising or calling a spade a spade lacks the fruit of the spirit? I said you’d say the same thing by Jesus or Paul by that plumbline. You have not answered that, and just repeated the charge. And you have not answered either how robbing the flock and lying and falsely prophesying and living a greedy lifestyle at others expense and robbing God, and covering up consistent sin, and showing favourtism and elitism and nepotism does show the fruit of the spirit?!
You want me to ‘refocus’ YET you have not shown me yet where I am scripturally wrong or distorted, and more than that you have not defended YOUR own stance scripturally, and merely brougt up more troubling ideas. [If I told pastors to 'refocus' and quit doing any of the work of the pastorate and to JUST evangelise, that would be rightly considered a distortion and a heresy] You need a balance Ben, and need to proclaim the whole counsel of God.
You also know why you asked the questions you did of me, and you know why you did it, though perhaps you will not face it head-on.
Because you have evaded them, Ben. I will not ask you again to answer them. At the end of the day you know what you can and cannot defend scriptually, and thus to not even to attempt to answer them, raises worrying questions why you act as you do as it indicates you are well aware the behaviour is unscriptural and indefensible – but will do it and defend it anyway. WHY?
Ben, Miriam spoke the truth, “Seed faith is really a bastard gospel. It is about greedy preachers manipulating people to give to them money with false promises, because I guarantee you those folk in South Africa did not become overnight millionaires as promised at the recent Benny Hinn crusades. That is fleecing whether you ‘feel’ it or not. give up your idols.”
And I would add to that; TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network) could easily be called The Bastard Network with all the lying and seducing spirits on it.
Give up your idols of men and doctrines.
Ben,
I cannot actually believe that you are building your Biblical argument on imaginary quote marks. I assume that you are aware that there is no such punctuation as quote marks within Biblical Hebrew.
Yes, Ben I understand there were no “” in Hebrew; however, the translation to NIV illustrates the meaning of the Hebrew — hence the quotation marks. These are not MY interpretations but from commentaries including NIV Study Bible text notes. You would do well to look up commentaries yourself.
Ben,
Still you miss my point re Hinn claiming to be a god. He claims the same word used in the Hebrew for God is applicable to himself making him equal to God. Hinn, Copeland et al are dangerous heretics!
Miriam, Ben said, “I am going now. I don’t want my sons to see the kind of language Miriam is using.
I will pray for boldness for her as she evangelizes and that she has wisdom as she reads the Word.”
That was just a cop out on his part to keep being evasive about your simple questions. It reeks of condescension on his part. And if I were you, I would not tell that man anything about what he kept asking of you: “Why not tell me three people you are evangelizing right now and I will pray for open doors and boldness for you to share with them the word of faith which we preach. Tell me which Scriptures you are meditating on and I will pray for wisdom and revelation for you.” You may do what you want, but I discern do not give that man anything. He is not willing to come to the complete lightor truth. He is manipulative. And we all know what kind of spirit that is.
Ben,
“I am a god. I was created to have dominion over the earth. I have free will, I have creative power.”
Bad exegesis from a rhema-trained heretic. None are saved by the false jesus you promote–you know, the one your antichrist teachers say was tortured in hell to make up for the mistakes of “the biggest loser in the Bible, God”. You are deceived, Ben.
The Hebrew word ‘elohim is often used to denote false gods, angels, and sometimes men exercising divine functions (such as the judges in Psalm 82; see also Exodus 21:6, 22:8,9); it does not always refer to the one true God. In Psalm 82, these ‘elohim are reminded that they are mere mortals, that they had failed to reflect His justice, and that they would die and fall like any men. Do these ‘elohim have His creative power and dominion? Nope, no way. And it is this Psalm that Lord Jesus cites in John 10:34. His argument there is not that those who claim to know Him will be gods, NO! His argument may be understood as “Rather than taking offense because this word is used of Me, since even your judges were referred to as ‘elohim, and you cannot refute what is written in Scripture, you should examine My credentials and see that My Father has sent Me into this world.” How brilliant and true are the words of Lord Jesus! Think of it–He is accused of blasphemy so He points to the mortal ‘elohim of Scripture who could not do the works of the Father, then He asks them to see by His works that the Father is in Him, that He is the Son of God, the Messiah, their Savior! Awesome! Praise the Lord!
Poor Ben. You have followed the blind into a ditch. Do not arrogantly twist Scripture to your own destruction.
“Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion on him…”
I am praying for you, Ben. You poor, deceived, gnostic. Come away from deception of your lying teacher’s
“revelation knowledge”, cast off the yoke of the false teachers who have deceived you, be purged of the false gospel of greed, which is no gospel, promoted by world-loving, mammon-worshipping idolatrous charlatans.
Cast away your self-righteousness and come to Christ Jesus.
Lee,
Forgive me, friend, for basically repeating your post 66.
I was interuppted while typing my response…
Continue in the Word, soldier of the Lord, and be filled in Him! My heart swells with love to see so many digging into the Truth, and standing steadfast upon the Rock!
Much love, Miriam!
Much love, brothers and sisters!
Word of faithers remind me of Simon in Luke 7:36-50. Like him, they sort of patronize Jesus. They are not conscious of true need for the Savior, for they are not conscious of sin in them and its vileness, therefore they feel no love for Him. They have gotten past a need for the Gospel. They give the impression that they are good in the sight of God and men. They are “gods”, they say, and in this claim is self-sufficiency which shuts one off from the living God. They have taken into their hearts the words of the enemy in the garden, and unwittingly accepted the temptations the master of liars pressed upon the Lord. The greatest of sins is to be conscious of no sin. The woman in these verses on the other hand is conscious of nothing but her great need, and is so overwhelmed with love for the One who could supply it that she received forgiveness.
Woe to those who tamper with Scripture to exalt man over His great need of Christ!
May the world be purged of the prosperity gospel–the doctrine of demons–a false gospel through which none will be saved.
Darren,
It’s all good!
Continue in the Word brother!
Ben,
Thank you! Hearing the Lord and obeying Him from a sincere heart that desires to please Him above all things is the most important.
I was in a church that told us to give into the offering the way the Lord led us. I have seen many situations where I have been financially “amazed.” The Lord is a good God and an Awesome Dad. Whenever He tells us to do something, it is to set us up for a blessing, because He is a God of Blessing!
A religious spirit hates the freedom and love of the Father. It killed the Lord….
Dear Dong: since you resurrected my old article and comments from Ben from this past summer to commend him on his “seed faith” idea?
The Lord has blessed me financially in ways that should make the newspapers, if i chose to tell the stories.
I dislike that you implied that Miriam or me or anyone who previously responded to “Ben” has a “religious spirit”.
You obviously have not been on this site very long if that’s what you believe.
We are to give as the Lord leads. There is no formula for it in the New Testament for it except to give with a “cheerful heart”.
The religious spirit on the other hand, always seeks to make a formula about God’s blessing and thereby tries to reduce God into an impersonal force.
This is the wickedness behind “seed faith” giving en masse.
The last I heard of “Ben” on this site, i believe he was posting under different names to justify his position in his various arguments with people here. Its dubious that you’ll get an answer from him.
Meanwhile study up on the NAR and the problem of seed faith formulas.
I tend to post examples and experiences, after you people on this site have stated scriptures. I’m not sure if it is God, I pray that it is. If you folks are tird of reading them tell me and I will stop. I have missed God before. :~)
No! I do not believe experiences “EVER” take presidence over scripture. If there had been no scripture posted I pray I would not tell of an experience. The Word Of God is first and foremost. Always!
However, after all of you have clearly and graceiously posted the Word Of God on this topic I feel lead to tell of and experience.
If any of you have read any of my previous post of last week I told of attending a revival. If any of you have read my post of the last 4 months or so I have stated I am a out of church Christian seeking a church for 3 years or so. I have also stated I have just decided I would stay in a couple of these churches during this time because they seem to be preaching 89% Bible. As time would rock on the mask of the pastor and the people began to come down exposing Word faith/NAR/prosperty ect….
I couldn’t make myself go. I never caused disruption or trouble as I am not a troublemaker. I have spent much time crying out to God for a church. I say this so no one will label me a church hopper or troublemaker.
Many of my minister friends/teacher friends/ missionary friend attend the revival I attended last week. That was how I knew of it, and was encouraged to come. (all of these friends worry about my out of church state.)
I stated I had my ears open like never before. I heard a lot of mixture of NAR/Word Faith/prosperty teaching during the sermon. I feel in my spirit that we have heard this so much till our spiritual ears have been dulled to this false teaching. I really feel no one was aware of the false mixture for I know the pastor. He has no problem rebuking what is not of God. He never noticed. My minister friends/teacher friends/missionary friends never noticed. If they did no one rebuked.
After the sermon there was a call for prayer. If you need prayer please come forward.
I sat in my seat and was very sad. I felt depressed over what I had heard and the fact I felt that no one noticed the false teachings. Sometimes a tear would fall. I didn’t think anyone noticed as I watched the people recieving prayer up front.
The evanglist must of saw. He must have thought I was being touched by God. He came to my seat and gave me a personal prophetic word. (OH, how I wished he had not. It made me even more sad.) It was almost word for word the same prophecy I got over 5 years ago when I was caught-up in that stuff.
It seems I have a ministry. And, “This is my season.” (It was also “MY Season” 5 years ago) and at the time I was still raising Ishmael. Course the minister says he doesn’t know my ministry God didn’t tell him that. The only problem is God hasn’t told me either. So whatta you think? huh? (I know I am called to the highways & hedges evanglism. we are all called to that).
Now, Bill Hamon would say this word is conditional. If I don’t step out in faith in “my season” it will not come to pass. Just like this same word didn’t come to pass 5 years ago when I first got it in “that season” huh? I am really confussed now?
Problem…….
What in the world do I stept out in?
What a mess I could make if I really did dream-up a ministry and do it in the flesh. Saint’s ever done anything in the flesh? I highly wouldn’t recommend it! Hard stuff that flesh work!
I did something one time in the flesh that I truly believe was the mission of God. Oh me, Oh my, It was a very hard 18 years raising Ishmael. Very hard! The Lord help me in my mess as I cried out to Him every day, but still Ishmael is very hard indeed.
Oh saints test the prophetic word no matter what Bill Hamon and his buddies say.
Thank goodness the personal prophecy have slowed down since the 1980’s but they are still out there messing up lives.
Sherry
In case it sounded like I am asking for help understanding what I am to step-out into. I wasn’t! That was not the intent of my post. After I re-read it I realized it might sound like my cry.
My intent was. Ministers do give out prophecy that is not of God. Test “ALL PROPHETIC WORDS YOU RECIEVE!” No matter what the high profile minister write in books!
Sherry
Sorry, I forgot to say this was the same revival my minister friend broke out in Holy laughter. It did not catch-on and spread through out the church as I have read in articles it many times does. Praise God! It was just that one person for a couple of minutes.
Sherry
My family moved in to a home formerly owned by Bill Hamon and his wife Evelyn. It was a disgrace. He obviously does not believe cleanliness is next to Godliness. It truly was a sin. Long strands of hair stuck to something in the closet. Creepy. Spoiled food all over. So much filth you could not walk through the rooms. We also dealt with him on some matters during the sale and got to see the real {man}. I would not listen to him preach anything. He is a phony from the get go. I feel sorry for all of those people who give him money. Darlene
Darlene
Was there agreements beforehand the home was to be very clean? Can you give any more detail and/or verification?
We did not sign a ” clean the house ” agreement, if that is what you mean. We took out 13 pick-up loads of trash before we could move anything in. This was around 1985. It was in Peoria, AZ. I have no reason to make it up.
Darlene
I certainly was NOT suggesting you were making it up.
However, I am also aware people have different expectations of what is an acceptable state of cleansiness one is leaving a sold house, and what one person would call filthy, another would call normal. I know some people who would call a place a pigsty if it is not perfect and has a little dust on the high ledges.
As I did not know the truth on this, I just wanted to find out. By all means tell your side, and I appreciate you sharing.
However 13 pick up loads of trash does NOT sound acceptable or normal! That does sound disgusting.
I think you said Bill Hamon was not pleasant when you tried to deal with him – how so?
Comment by A moved by admin
It made me sad. I know ministers are human, but I guess I just expected they would not live in filth. A couple of years later Bill Hamon came back to the house after we had built block fences, replaced all carpeting, painted, cleaned the pool. replaced appliances, planted trees, and on and on. He wanted to take pictures of the property in and out. we didnt want him to. He stated he didnt see any changes. It blew us away. The guest house insulation was roll after roll of toilet tissue. He said it was a donation. Wow! We have plenty of witnesses.