Mike Bickle & IHOP Cult-like Tendancies
Thanks to the person for directing me to this interesting post here: http://truthspeaker.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/is-ihop-a-cult/
Don’t forget IHOP is linked to the Kansas City Prophets who were also a cult, who have rapidly infiltrated the mainstream Charismatic church since the early 1990s thanks to men like John Wimber and R T Kendall and C Peter Wagner, and manifestations and impartations like the Toronto Blessing and the Lakeland Outpouring.
On top of the IHOP article linked to above (please do take the time to read it), here is some additional material re IHOP finances by the same author.
“So, I said all that to say this: when you start with an incorrect biblical premise and then build on that foundation, what you will end up with is something totally unbiblical. In order for the leaders to maintain this they MUST resort to CONTROL of the members. Any time a member sees something wrong they must do damage control immediately so that the truth does not spread to others!! (ie: telling Sadparent’s son not to speak to his mother for a year)
Why, does this happen?? I will give you the simple answer…. follow the money trail!! $$$$$$$$
Do some research, check out that Mike Bickle is the CEO of IHOP and that his wife is the CEO of her realty company and Mike is the VP. Charisma did an article on her and her company a few years ago… it’s online and you can look it up. She finds property, IHOP buys it. She gets paid a commission. Then at the end of the year she gives all her profits back to IHOP their tax exempt organization and then they do it all over again!! Nice deal!! So, who really owns ALL THE PROPERTY? Mike and Diane!!
Now come along all the interns who have to pay almost 5K for 6 months to live there and PRAY there! ok, you do the math…. 100 interns at $4,900 each….. that comes to almost 1/2 a million dollars a year! Do that twice and you have a million. How long have you been there and how much have you paid to be members there? Please show me in the bible where you have to PAY TO PRAY?????
Well, I could go on, but time restrains me. I pray that your mind is opened to hear the truth. If you are willing just ask the Lord to show you the truth and he will.
And Just for your information here is some good info on identifying cults:
How to Identify Cults from ehow:
As diverse as cults may be in their teachings and individual creeds, there are undeviating similarities that identify them as cults. There are certain tactics involved in gaining and retaining membership which become so deeply ingrained in the cult member’s psychological and emotional make up that it is very difficult to leave the cult and reform their lives.
Step 1
Watch for changes in the individual’s personality and a growing estrangement from or even hostility towards family and friends. Cult members are discouraged from remaining in contact with former associates who might cause them to doubt the teachings and practices of the cult. Members are indoctrinated to distrust anyone who criticizes the cult or leader(s).Step2
Be aware. Cult members are often convinced to contribute all of their money and goods to the cult as a sign of their commitment. There is a strong emphasis on collecting money, which is often made by selling goods to the public and then donating it to the cult as part of their ministry. They spend much time recruiting other members, which they do by preying on their emotions.Step3
Recognize the lack of control over the member’s private life. Cult leaders monopolize the member’s time and relationships, cultivating complete dependence on themselves and the cult. Members are taught to distrust anyone outside the cult and are discouraged from reading any material except what is provided or approved by the cult. Marriages and living arrangements (usually communal living) are dictated by cult leaders.Step4
Note that cult members are discouraged from thinking for themselves. They are given little or no time alone and are constantly engaged in physical or group activities. They are engaged in mind altering behaviors, such as chanting, denunciation of selves and others and encouraged to report suspicious behaviors of other cult members, including their own families. Shame and fear of alienation cements their dependence on the cult.Step5
Notice the unquestioning dedication which cult followers exhibit towards their leader. They learn to rationalize his behaviors even if these contradict previously held beliefs or common sense. They believe happiness and redemption comes solely from their leader(s) and they will sacrifice nearly everything for the benefit of the cult.Step6
Keep in mind that forcing or coercing a member to leave a cult can cause psychological and emotional damage. They have been programmed to believe God will punish them if they leave, and threats are used to force them to maintain silence about cult activities. It is necessary to get help from a professional deprogrammer and assure that they are kept away from other active cult members.”
Like my husband always says, “Follow the money trail.”
All these cult characteristics are the very things I watched develop in a friend who is no longer a friend, but parted into false movements. Every last one of them.
Step 1. She got to the point where I was no longer “spiritual enough” for her because I wanted to stay on the Word.
Step 2. She gave thousnds of dollars to a preacher to help him build his new building. (Therefore causing her to feel like she just can not leave but someohow has to make it work, as she has invested so much in to it.)She tried to recruit me through my emotions and I would not go there.
Step 3. She ended up in so many programs there that she had no time for anything or anybody else. Only all the new people she met. She stopped reading newsletters by David Wilkerson more or less saying he was “yukky.” I knew something was very wrong when she said with such disdain, “I hate religion.” It was not like her to say something so harsh the way she said. She was a gentle soul.
But that made a red light in me go off. She acted as if her church was the only church here that had anything.
Step 4. She can not think for herself at all anymore. And I am not kidding. And this was someone God used greatly at one time.
Step 5. Her pastor is an idol. She would deny this but when you are constantly having to put things on the “back burner” and not test things there is something very very wrong.
Step 6. I do not see her leaving this church or its’ teachings outside of direct intervention of God. I believe she thinks that as long as she is “faithful” she will be blessed. And I don’t see her pastor letting her go so easily since she is able to finance him tremondously.
I share this information so others will see that the charasmatic movement of today can be a cult. So don’t anyone tell me that it isn’t. It is.
I’m actually working on a write up of IHOP myself.
As a person who lives in Kansas City, I have had numerous opportunities to counsel with some of the young people that have been enamored by IHOP and the poetic/romantic preaching that goes on out there.
For many of them it is something like Bible Camp syndrome. As long as they are connected to the source (IHOP) everything looks good outwardly. But when many of these kids leave their lives fall apart and because they no longer have the emotional romantic fix that they receive via the music.
I once asked a young man who was deep into the IHOP culture what drew him there and what he did there. He replied that he was there to “gaze upon the beauty of God”. When I asked Him what God looked like; a blank stare came over his face and I could almost hear in the background.
I then told the young man that I would make it easy for him, by asking him a different question: “What does gazing on the beauty mean?”. Of course he couldn’t tell me anything other than he didn’t really know, that’s just what they say out there all the time.
The sad thing is these kids go out there and receive alot of emotional fluff, but nothing really tangible except alot of catholic mysticism; emotionalism; romantic/poetic preaching; and erotic music.
Sheeple, please do link to it here when it is done.
Wow Miriam,
I wouldn’t post this one. This is way off. The full-time people that operate in the house of prayer simply raise their own support. They also take care of their own living. Internships are different but are based on schooling and training not just praying. For example intro to IHOP is $900/3 months. Check the following link for info.
http://ihop.org/Groups/16802/International_House_of/About_IHOP_KC/Training_Internships.aspx
Furthermore,
Mike and Diane Bickle live in the same duplex that they have lived in since the 1980’s. Mike drives an old pontiac and also has not received a pay raise since he started the house of prayer. He lives on a VERY modest salary and refuses pay increase. He has maintained this simple lifestyle to be modest and above reproach with money. Diane does run the real estate company which she founded and built. They do pour money from the agency into the ministry to keep everything going. Last I heard, it costs 20,000/week to maintain a 24/hr ministry in the strip mall they are in. Mike maintains a very rigorous teaching and prayer lifestyle.
How do I know this. 1. One of my best friends teaches in the Intro to IHOP program. He raises all his money to be there and does not PAY to be there. 2. Alan Hood (who is on senior leadership at IHOP and is director of the Bible School) has been to our ministry a few times and has personally confirmed the lifestyle of Mike Bickle. People have even encouraged him to at least move into a house or buy a new car and Mike refuses.
As far as being a cult or associating them with a cult is laughable. Everyone there is free to come and go as they please. I have rarely found a place that has such a passion for Jesus.
Lastly,
Mike Bickle flew many of the so-called Kansas City prophets around the world to apologize for excesses in their theology and prophetic practices (this was in the early 1990s) There were also many things that they were accused of that were not true. To currently associate Mike Bickle with the Kansas City prophets and their mistakes 18 years later is not right. For those that want to research what IHOP believes and a see a discussion of the controversies/beliefs here is a link: http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000010561
Sheeple,
Your opinion only. i wouldn’t judge an international ministry on one young man and his inability to describe what he means. Gazing on the beauty of God simply means to focus on Jesus and who he is in prayer and scripture. They are always encouraged to spend much time reading about Jesus and praying. They are growing in God.
David – would you care to remind me on which Kansas City Prophet’s vision, the IHOP and The Call is based on?
Mike Bickle is well known for double speak and promoting Latter Rain/KC prophet heresies while saying he does not.
>>The full-time people that operate in the house of prayer simply raise their own support. They also take care of their own living
As many people do in other organisations such as YWAM.
YWAM’s fees are high and are not just break even, or even only just over. Is that right?
IHOP is cult-like? Like any other Charismatic center isn’t?
We came out of a Global Legacy (Bethel [Bill Johnson's] Church) affiliated group, and they idolize them in a very serious way. They go out there for half the conferences, buy their books and tapes like there’s no tomorrow, and (in 2 years we were there), never once questioned anything that they taught.
It’s also supposedly like heaven on earth, and people have the most “amazing” spiritual experiences there.
To me, these people are selling spiritual “crack.” People get a taste of this false spirit, get addicted to the experience, and will go anywhere they can constantly get more. Add some innocent looking false apostles and prophets, teaching that tickles your ears, a good website, half-decent musicians, and your in biz.
From all I see, places like Bethel, TACF and Morning Star are just this.
IHOP, in my book, is significantly different than any other Charismatic center in that they are super, super dedicated, their really serious, and they seem serious about “Bible teaching.” I’ve heard Derek Loux (director of FMA) speak a half-dozen times, and it seems his heart and motives are pure (he’s also preached some really hard hitting and convicting messages that really don’t have much to do with IHOP at all).
I’ve been to onething ‘07, and have seen it all first hand. The atmosphere was very serious (in stark contrast to the Toronto Blessing), and they really preached Holiness the entire time. I really didn’t like the whole prayer, prayer, prayer emphasis they pushed. It seemed as if all of Christianity revolved around prayer and IHOP’s mission.
I don’t know about the money issues with IHOP, I only know that Bickle knowingly has backed a false prophet, in fact, two, Bob Jones and Paul Cain, for years.
The other problem with 24/7 prayer is that is assumes that intercession is a man directed force to get God’s attention.
God directs the timing of intercession and prayer. Praying around the clock is meaningless unless it is something God directs. IHOP promotes self-righteousness in this manner.
This is the other hidden secret of the false beliefs of the NAR…
They think that THEY MUST ENFORCE GOD’S WILL with their incessant prayer. They don’t believe the scripture that “My Word never comes back void” but INSTEAD believe they have to enforce it with prayer to MAKE God’s will happen. Of course, then it turns out to be their will and not God’s!
Then, people start thinking that God is an impersonal “force” instead of the personage He is! And it becomes a prayer force or formula for spiritual power. I have seen how this type of prayer actually causes unbelief. They are trying to do God’s job and will not do their own.
There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between this IHOP idea of “incessant” and “intercessory” prayer.
A TRUE INTERCESSOR is called to stand in the gap for sin. He takes on the sin himself in prayer.
But IHOP seems to be more obsessed with “realignment of the heavenlies” than standing in the gap and admitting they are just as much of a dirty sinner than the people they are praying for. The idea of 24/7 prayer is a man-made formula. There is no sacrifice in this type of incessant prayer, so their is no power! But they think they are “moving the heavenlies” with this prayer…
THIS IS GOD’S JOB!
I had a word and vision for my church that does incessant and not intercessory prayer back in April. Note that they are NARbots and believe they must pray enough so God’s word does what it says it will do! I got the vision in April but did not give to the Pastors until I had taken a couple of months off to write up about the Apostolic Prophetic Cult for them — they went to Lakeland and I warned them strongly. The last communication I sent them was this vision, even though I had received it months before.
They took the IHOP idea of incessant prayer to a new level of insanity. They would actually refuse to pray for the unsaved or sick, yet their intercessory group was constant! They considered themselves “above” evangelizing. It is a very dangerous situation. Here is the vision:
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I saw a landscape of a sort of curved, white glowing “Heaven”, kind of like a globe, with everyone at my church represented as being positioned right over this Heavenly Promised land, of this glowing landscape.
Each person at the church was represented as a small mechanical device, like a spool or open barrel with a bolt running through it. I had to ask a mechanic I know what it was I was seeing. Each person at church was represented by something called a simple “Actuator”
Actuators conduct power. A simple actuator is a threaded bolt pushed down between the two holes which conducts electricity from the top part to the bottom part — it empowers things. It is a thing that “activates power”. Each metal “Actuator” was positioned over this Promised land.
I saw us spread out over the heavenly landscape of pure white… saw each person’s actuator was over their given territory of promise. A piece of heaven given to us, under us.
I asked the Lord why I was seeing “Gina” in particular in the vision. He replied that she was the one who had explained why the church was praying the way it did. She said we don’t evangelize at this church because we are doing warfare “to affect the heavenlies so that when people get saved, they stick with it instead of falling away quickly as some new believers do.”
I saw Gina’s bolt or screw, like everyone else’s, was spinning around the top part of the actuator. It was not going down, as it was designed, into the bottom part where it screwed in and then locked into the promised land beneath it. It was supposed to hit the land and tap into the power of the heavenly land beneath it.
The Lord told me to think about “authorities and powers” when I saw this.
The turning around in the top part was a lot of prayer against authorities and powers; going around and around. Then I noticed this was not what the actuator was made for. It was made to be pushed down into the bottom part of the device — where the electricity of Heaven is accessed and it energizes the whole Actuator!
It was turning around and around in the “warfare” against “authorities and powers” — instead of being pushed down into WORKS which were the bottom part of the device.
The bolt was actually being worn down with this “turning prayer against authorities and powers”. I saw everyone’s bolt at TGP was now so worn down with incessant, not intercessory, prayer, that their BOLTS WERE CUT IN HALF AND TOO SHORT to reach the bottom part where it would make a connection and bolt into their Promised Land.
The Lord said the top part of the actuators was “Faith” and the bottom part of it was “Works”.
The incessant turning around in authorities and powers and not backing up their prayers with works showed me that faith itself at the church was actually being worn down by incessant prayer.
Faith without works was wearing out the Saints, to the point of not believing anything was ever going to change. Their faith was being worn down into Unbelief, and cutting them off from their Promised Land. Praying but not doing. Incessant prayers without attendant works causes unbelief. Faith without works is … dead.
The Lord said: “Gina was being shown to you because she expressed the rationale for the incessant prayer at the church. But this idea that this church is “affecting the heavenlies so when people do get saved, they stick with it” goes against My Word:
TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.
PREACH THE WORD IN SEASON AND OUT OF SEASON.
IF WE ARE ASHAMED OF CHRIST IN FRONT OF MEN,
HE WILL BE ASHAMED OF US IN FRONT OF OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN.
This church is not evangelizing, even the assistant pastor said “We Don’t Do That” in defense of their disobedience to carry My Gospel to the Lost.
This is disobedience. MY WORD NEVER COMES BACK VOID, IT IS NOT UP TO THIS CHURCH TO DO MY WORK. It is up to them to do theirs.”
I got upset at this. I said: “But Lord, I only came to this church because of the pastor’s call to Hollywood — I only got friendly with people there because they said they wanted to take their Promised Land of Hollywood!”
The Lord said to me…”What did I just show you?
I said: “You just showed me that too much prayer without works causes Unbelief.”
He said. “Right. And what does my word say about people who have Unbelief?”
“Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers.”
He said. “This church is praying without the courage of their prayers to go out into the world and take their promised land. They are hiding behind incessant prayer. This is false “asceticism” of pretending to be “spiritual” by removing oneself from the world altogether, as Paul taught Christians are NEVER to do. Too much prayer without works is dead and it is causing them to fall into unbelief.
You, Arise, are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers.
And because they are unbelievers,
they will NOT BELIEVE YOU, ARISE, EVEN IF YOU TELL THEM THIS.”
She ended up in so many programs there that she had no time for anything or anybody else. Only all the new people she met. She stopped reading newsletters by David Wilkerson more or less saying he was “yukky.” I knew something was very wrong when she said with such disdain, “I hate religion.” It was not like her to say something so harsh the way she said. She was a gentle soul.
But that made a red light in me go off. She acted as if her church was the only church here that had anything.”
THIS quote reminded me of my IHOP child to the nth degree! Especially the “I hate religion.” RELIGION is what my church is viewed as. Not a place of worship (which it is) but RELIGION!!!!!
PF
While supporting 2 interns at IHOP, I began learning more about it and began to question. I listened to Bickle’s teaching series, Encountering Jesus (very scary stuff), hours of other teachings, I attended a conference, I watched on line and I read posts. I did not make a judgment based on internet hearsay as I was accused of doing!
I questioned IHOP’s endorsement of the Toronto Blessing and the bazaar manifestations that happened there. I questioned IHOP’s heavy endorsement of Contemplative Prayer and this year’s frenzied ‘One Thing’ conference.
My friends, the interns, rebuked me. They suggested I was treading on thin ice in regard to possible slander. They said I had lost my first love, that I needed to repent and suggested I go on a ‘Bible only’ fast for 1 year. And during this time I should spend time praying the Word and let my heart grow because it is dangerous if the mind grows more than the heart. (Step #5?)
I am very glad I listened to Bickle’s Encountering Jesus, as difficult as it was, as he explained how IHOP was conceived through the prophecies of Bob Jones and Paul Cain. When I learned that Bob Jones is also ‘spiritual’ mentor to Todd Bentley, the pieces all started coming together, angels and all!
IHOP’s recent endorsement of Todd Bentley (and John Crowder’s New Mystic’s in their bookstore) was the final straw. I am no longer a supporter of IHOP. And yes I am very concerned for my friends.
Bickle’s Joseph Company also based on Bob Jones visions.
>> They considered themselves “above” evangelizing
That’s what concerns me. Since when is there such a thing as “prayer missionaries”? – It is a lie to keep people diverted, rather like spiritual warfare…
>> even the assistant pastor said “We Don’t Do That” in defense of their disobedience to carry My Gospel to the Lost
What was his reasoning?! I know John Arnott said years after Toronto hit in 1994 that they were waiting for more power….(says it all)
Dear ETPW:
They were doing exactly what “Gina” said they were doing when she explained to me why they did not evangelize.
They believed they were “breaking up the heavenlies” with prayer so when people did get saved, they would “stick with it” instead of falling away as so many do when they are saved….
Specious reasoning, not the Lord.
My own experience with this church is that since Bob Jones and Rick Joyner prayed over the Pastors — they were swept into the magic of idolatry.
They were “waiting” for the “Revival” to happen, when a million (yes a million) souls would come crashing into the church even though no “fishing” and no true evangelism had been done.
The “We Don’t Do That” comment was because they felt they were “Prophets” or “Apostles” and the lowdown, common, workaday work of an Evangelist was not their “gifting”.
I am so NOT kidding.
But after so many years of being under a NARbot teaching and doctrine, what happened to the people there is they got so isolated from real life, their “emotional I.Q.’s” shrank. No one had money. The sick got sicker. And the ministry to the sheep was paltry because their own lives did not “work” and they had no idea how to minister to real people with real problems. A mediocrity of the spirit came about as the witchcraft of false prophecy and familiar spirits set in. I would test people to see if they even remembered the sermon a few minutes after church and — NO ONE COULD EVEN REMEMBER what was preached. This is a sign of the Delusion.
You can imagine how quickly they embraced Lakeland, giving their past history with Bob Jones especially. I am only telling the very tip of the iceberg here, it was incredible what happened to that church. How quickly the Delusion happened. (I had warned them that “I will send a Delusion back in October 07)
They practiced: Imprecatory Prayer. False prophecies were given with such frequency that it became ANIMAL FARM in that the people would not remember the prophecy from the previous Sunday to even see if it came true. They needed the immediate supplication and “comfort” of prophetic words in the moment! They bought into the “warring with angels” lies and the whole gemstone thing was great for them. These are signs and wonders that only increased their unbelief, but they were hooked on the signs and wonders as their only evidence that God actually was real by that point.
No wonder Lakeland captivated them to the point the Pastor said “anyone who does not believe Lakeland is the true Revival is deceived (and of the Devil.)” I gave them a very hard word about Lakeland I received on June 2nd — here are the last two lines:
“… And The Lord is furious that you are daring to get drunk on the blood of the saints and call it ‘The Communion Cup.’
And to prove this is the Word of the Lord, tell Pastor that this is the real reason “He shall break them with a rod of iron.”
Sorry, what does Imprecatory Prayer mean?
ps NARbots is a good word for the followers and descriptive of the mindless lack of questioning, but I prefer NARsies to describe the leaders….
It means praying Old Testament curses upon your modern New Testament “enemies”.
Imprecatory prayer means literally praying “against flesh and blood” in the New Testament.
Sharon Stone Rick Joyner Chuck Pierce and Francis Frangipange have promoted this to the point that my pastors, inspired by them, taught it.
This is the “Mormon” problem of the NAR — bringing Old Testament ideas into this Pentecost Age when the Lord clearly tells us to “turn the other cheek and to bless those who wickedly curse you.”
The Delusion makes them insanely Anti Christian and Anti Christ.
Thanks for the explanation.
Can you give me a specific example?
Here’s a good link to understanding the imprecatory prayers of the Psalms.
http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/zap.htm
Cursing an unbeliever, say an Al Queda member, and asking for God to kill this person.
Cursing people as per the Psalms.
I have heard it preached that we are to pray this way so that we literally are standing in the blood of our enemies.
I prayed with ministers on a weekly basis and a pentecostal brother came and said we should all fast for Bush to be elected back in 2000….a forty day fast. I felt the election was indeed important and decided to do the fast. He invited me to go with him to KC and meet a man who prayed 40 hours a week and was leading a 24/7 house of prayer and who did 40 day fasts.
Since I was learning about intercession thru the writings of Andrew Murray (Ministry of Intercession; Prayerlife), I went. Going to IHOP was my introduction to the Prayer Movement and the Prophetic Movement. The whole idea of praying and fasting was so needed by the church and our nation that I had to go although I believed that pentecostalism was dangerous.
I learned a lot about intercession and was surprised that Bickle wasn’t pre-trib but as I bought the tapes and listened I realized there were serious errors being taught.
As mentioned above by Arise, it was Paul Cain who named it IHOP. Jones and Cain are the fathers of Bickle’s ministry. I believe they deceived Mike in a way that has caused him to refuse listening to anyone who opposes the IHOP vision. Mike has also permitted false prohets like Jill Austin to take center stage in IHOP conferences.
Mike had good Bible men around him like Sam Storms and Steve Carpentar but he rejected their sound teachings and they left IHOP. That saddened me.
Bickle began to emphasize “THE ISRAEL MANDATE”. He believes that is what IHOP is really all about. This false teaching teaches that every Jew will be converted at the return of Jesus….automatically. This is at the center of their prayers.
The failure to understand the relationship of the Old Testament to the New Testament and the relationship of Israel to the church is behind most false teachings especially on prophecy. As stated in a comment above, this false hermeneutic has put the Old Testament above the New. Storms and Carpentar tried to help him see the true hermeneutic but Mike wouldn’t listen.
Mike Bickle recently aligned with Lou Engle to raise up a youth movement devoted to intercessory worship. They go after the youth especially in the Pentecostal churches.
Mike has impressed me with high moral standards and integrity in the area of money. For instance, all the money that comes in from books and tapes goes to the poor.
Btw, you will find Andrew Murray’s teaching on intercession invaluable concerning the importance of intercession in evanglism. God Bless.
I didnt have time to do a bunch of digging but as Laura said above I made a quick pass through ihops bookstore and found several books about mystics, and several by “Mr. toke the holy ghost” (GOLL) and not supprisingly found a handful of good books that speak truth. But isnt that the way satan works, mixing truth and lies till you cant tell the difference! We live around St. Louis and I have a family member and her good friend that make a yearly pilgramige to ihop for a weekend, the scary thing to me is that while she is there she many times gets revelation about things going on at home to strengthen her belief in those teachings. It has even caused me to take notice on occasion, then I just remember who Mr. Bickels mentors are and then I wonder if demonic spirits are giving her the info! I truly believe that lying signs and wonders will more and more be seen through people that are involved in this. The thing that is really disturbing is that they push reading the bible, then they give thier twist on the bible, through books cds and such. Bickel may very well be the most dangerous as he is very well versed in double talk. Also disturbing to me is the comparison of the Song of Solomon, which is plainly about a fleshly relationship between a man and a woman, to our relationship with JESUS! There cant be anything good come from this!!!!! Look at the denials on his website and even in these he manages to be very vague. I trust him NOT!!! GIVE US DISCERNMENT AND WISDOM OH LORD AMEN!!! GOD BLESS!!!
Dear ETPW and BB:
The link to the article on imprecatory prayer is not, in my opinion, in line with the Gospel. It is exactly how my little church tried to couch it when it was taught. But you put together ETPW’s recent postings on the real motives in real bloodshed of the NARbots to literally kill their enemies, and the danger of imprecatory prayer as a practical mindset becomes alarming.
I pieced this together on what the Lord showed me about Imprecatory Prayer in terms of the fact that it is really a divisive idea that goes against the Word. “Warring with angels” as a false practice also came up in the following:
THE THIRD CORD OF A PRINCIPALITY OF DIVISION AT A SMALL CHURCH UNDER CHE AHN -IMPRECATORY PRAYER
The Lord had me gather together a lot of words and things that had been going on at my small church in May and early June of this year, as Lakeland heated up. I was in major prayer and intercession, some of the heaviest time of intercession I have ever been in my life, because I had been called out of this church personally in April and yet I had “tugged on Jesus’ coat” to spare faith there as He willed.
I felt led to commit things to paper I had seen and heard being taught and practiced there for the leaders of the church. My earlier pieces called THE SPIRIT OF DIVISION AT HARVEST ROCK, CHE AHN’S CHURCH and RICK JOYNER THE APOSTLE PAUL AND THE ANTI-CHRIST and BILL HAMON’S STRONGHOLDS OF THE END TIME DELUSION were part of this huge amount of writing I was doing for the church.
There was a rather large portion of this writing devoted to the Spirit of Division. I saw that it was “seeded” to my church through their relationship and under the false NAR teachings of Che Ahn.
It started with the Lord saying in September of 2007 that:
“A Principality of Division has come into The Church. A principality has been invited in because it is now a threefold cord of agreement”.
The Pastor and a group leader and the Pastor’s wife had come into agreement, in differing ways, with a Spirit of Division. I am leaving out the first two cords now, as they are personal to the group leader and the Pastor (somewhat) but what the Lord was saying was that when we come into an agreement with anything that goes against scripture, the Enemy is invited in.
Without going into specifics, each of them (and we are all prey to this thinking) had decided that adhering to the Word in their relational life at the Church was “beneath them” in some way. It was an Elitist attitude that doing what the Bible tells us to do was somehow not for them.
I am quoting from the final “cord” of Division I saw because it dealt with Imprecatory Prayer, names changed of course.
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This leads to the next cord of Division I saw, one I was shocked and surprised at the Word I got for the church: The Lord said in September 2007 that the third cord of Division inviting in a Principality was…
… “Jane”.
Jane?
I couldn’t believe it was you, Jane. The Lord said:
“Jane” invited Division when she started teaching the church to
pray Imprecatory prayer.
I was flabbergasted: “Why, Lord, was this Division?”
“Jane” is doing this because of her fear for (a relative’s)
life in the military.”
I saw “Jane” is unwittingly standing in Division because she assumes a special “class” of Christian warriors who are allowed to pray Old Covenant prayers. Those who are to curse their enemies — even curse the unsaved.
This is what I heard:
““Jane” would have to be completely without sin or stain
in her own life to even approach this type of prayer.”
“And it is Division because she assumes this special Imprecatory prayer is reserved for “certain people” who are separate from the “average class” of Christians who are called to “pray for their enemies”, “bless those who wickedly curse them”, and take my Gospel to the lost.”
“Jane” has come under the teaching of false prophets who falsely teach a blurring of Old Testament “eye for an eye” vengeance and New Testament “turn the other cheek” blessings on those who wickedly curse you.”
““Jane” would have herself to be without sin or stain in order to call down those curses. But instead, she is going along with the false teachings of false prophets who have agendas that “Jane” cannot even fathom.”
The Lord said: “No Christian has a right to call down harm
or judgment upon the wicked under the New Covenant.”
“If so, I would have called down angels to avenge My arrest at Gethsemane and slay the Pharisees. But I didn’t, because My kingdom is not of this
world.”
He said: “Pastor Tom also has come into agreement of this blurring of Old and New Covenants. Pastor Tom misquoted my Word (Matt. 26:53): “Do you think I cannot call on my Father and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?”
(Pastor Tom wrote about Paul Harrison’s coming to the church in a church email:
“It’s interesting that (Jesus) didn’t bind the devil or speak the word, he called for angel help.” – Pastor “Tom” from Sept. 2007)
“I DID NOT CALL FOR ‘ANGEL HELP’!”.
“This is the influence of false prophets and false teaching.”
“This is the third cord of Division.”
I had been at “Jane”’s sermon in February 2007 when she first taught on Imprecatory Prayer. It seemed fine to me. A little blood-thirsty, but fine. But as I re-listened to it, I must have missed her opening remarks or not considered them. She got her ideas about Imprecatory Prayer from Rick Joyner and others.
Rick Joyner who mixes up Old Testament precepts and New. Just like Bill Hamon. We are not to fight against flesh and blood, but “Jane” had been teaching… just that. Standing in the blood of our enemies.
BB,
You state MB has impressed you with his moral integrity regarding finances in that the sales from his books and tapes all goes to the poor.
Did Mike Bickle tell you this?
In the early 2000’s Mike used to take “offerings” for the poor at conferences and he was giving the money to his “poor intercessory missionaries”. A man on his staff at IHOP confronted him on this practice as being deceitful. Only then did Mike correct this.
Mike is very smart and knows how to present himself to get you to beleive what he wants you to believe about him.
It appears his name is on the deeds of a real estate empire.
You might check and see if there is there is a thorough annual financial report put out by IHOP, FOTB and all the other ministries MB leads to prove integrity in financial matters.
The naive believe every word but a wise man searches out the matter.
Hi Olive Oil,
Yes, MB DID impress me by announcing the proceeds from the bookstore was going to the poor. He had every right to put it into his pocket and support IHOP if he desired. Now if you want to say that he announced this only to make himself look good and that he outright was lying then I would need proof and an investigation of his financial records.
The story you presented is hearsay imho. In any case if he did use the money to help ‘poor’ followers at IHOP it still helped the poor. Church leaders are called to help ‘our own’ poor first. At least it wasn’t going into his pockets!
What I said about moral integrity is not to be taken in its fullness since MB leads a cult that presents deception and lifts up false prophets. MB impressed me that he was not enriching himself personally or being unfaithful to his wife. Until PROOF surfaces otherwise I will continue to believe that. There are many JW’s and Mormons that live morally upright lives.
AML,
I think you are correct in seeing that prayers of imprecation can be misunderstood and indeed are being misused by those in “Joel’s Army”. I shudder to think that they would turn to the prayers for God’s judgments and pray them against the true remnant. Of course, our God will not answer them but it could and no doubt will empower them to kill those they perceive our enemies of God like the Catholics did to those refusing to recant.
But that doesn’t change the fact that imprecations are in the New Testament as the link I provided clearly reveals. Revelation is full of it.
For instance, in the fifth seal, the blood of the martyrs cries out for vengeance. God answers them by telling them they will have to wait for Him to exercise vengeance.
Then we have the commencement of the seven trumpets in answer to the prayers of the saints.
The two witnesses are said to have the authority to call down plagues whenever they desire and that whoever seeks to harm them, will themselves be harmed.
The last half of Revelation finds the righteous exalting God for His judgments are righteous and true. Revelation 14 is steeped in Isaiah 63 imagery of God’s vengeance.
I’m sure God’s people have dialed up their Father to judge Stalin, Lenin and Hitler especially as innocents were slaughtered by the thousands.
I ask our Father continually to thwart and judge those who plot and plan to hurt and kill. I leave it in His hands.
So I see a difference in calling upon God to take vengeance and rendering judgments and the church believing it has the right to render judgments and take vengeance that belongs to God by killing those they believe are God’s enemies. “Vengeance is MINE says the LORD, and I will repay.”
I agree, but it is a slippery slope when NARbots advocate imprecatory prayer.
It becomes a doctrine and a practice and a mindset that “they” have a “right” to call down God’s judgement. Just like they feel like “they” have a right to “call down angels” to go to war for them… when even Jesus did not do this!
It is one thing to cry out for God’s hand to move, but quite another to PERSONALLY PROCLAIM JUDGMENT ON THE UNSAVED. This is what the NARbots are teaching. It is a slippery slope for them to actually pick up the sword and kill in this mistaken idea of Joel’s army — but the Lord tells us that they WILL do this to the true saints.
I think we are in agreement, I just want to expose the practice as I do believe one would have to be without sin or stain themselves to render these types of prayers… because the judgments you make are the judgments you will get.
There is an article somewhere that details the great danger of a Christian praying imprecatory prayers — to themselves, that is.
God bless you sister. May our God help us to expose these lies and this growing antichrist movement.
Those “imprecatory prayers” are despicable and wicked. May those prayers come to nothing and may those who pray them be convicted to change their ways! That’s just plain old witchcraft and totally counters Scripture to love our enemies, and bless them. I do think there is a use for those prayers, however. I have found the imprecatory prayers (although I have never heard that term before) in Psalms to be invaluable. They are to be prayed against our REAL enemy, NEVER against our fellow men. Since we are not wrestling against flesh and blood, other people are not our enemies. Our enemies are the powers that the people are listening to. I definitely believe using those prayers are part of resisting the devil on behalf of poor chained souls that don’t know how to pray on their own behalf yet! I have been absolutely furious as I have seen certain people acting just like puppets; as Satan pulled their strings, they danced. Then you ask the Lord what he wants you to pray for, and open the Bible and go for it!
On another note, I see a tendency here to consider the Old Testament to be, well, inferior or obsolete. Really, the entire Bible is useful because it helps us to understand how God thinks…I would not recommend downplaying the Old Testament with the thinking that it is old covenant. Would anyone say that the old testament blessings are no longer appropriate, since they are in the old covenant? The Torah is beautiful and provides a picture of how God wishes us to treat each other. True, it cannot save us, but there are blessings to be found in studying what it teaches us about God, and blessings to be enjoyed from a righteous lifestyle. May God bless you as you consider this.
Oh I totally agree, the whole Word is a blessing and thanks for putting in down that we always must pray those Psalms against the Enemy, not flesh and blood.
I’m sick of this cult and what it’s done to my family and to me. These people are child abusers. They are sick.
Dear sickofthe bs. I feel for you, their are many who have been affected by IHOP. Can you state how it has affected you and your family?
Just FYI…IHOP NEVER endorsed Todd Bently. People from IHOP went down to Florida during the “outpouring” but Mike Bickle NEVER and let me say it again, NEVER endorsed Todd Bently.
Just because people that attend IHOP or are on staff at IHOP support something does not mean that Mike Bickle and IHOP Leadership support that.
You should really make sure you know what you’re talking about before you post it on the internet.
The Lakeland Revival was never of God because it included the Straders’s and anybody who had wisdom, brains or discernment would have seen this!
Stephen Strader is as much as a liar, thief and deceiver as Todd Bentley! Stephen and Karl Strader who are real thieves have proclaimed for years that Dan Strader is innocent and he was framed. See Not Innocent” http://www.a2zbookdepot.com/xxcrxxoxxoks.pdf.
And this is an obvious lie and if the Stradeverything anything else.
If Pastor Stephen Strader or John Arnott or Che Ahe or Bill Johnson were true men of God operating in the gifts of the Spirit they would have seen that Todd Bentley was a false prophet from day one. Before the Lakeland revival I saw and heard Todd Bentley make many false prophecies which showed me he was a deceiver and a false prophet! So obviously none of the leaders who crowned Todd Bentley in June are or were true men of God but deceived duped ones who were deceiving others.
And John Arnott lied on his web site that Todd Bentley was being counseled and was submitting to counsel etc. when the truth was that Todd told them to get lost!
So the bottom line is everybody at the revival was and is a charlatan! All those who supported Todd Bentley in anyway need to repent for many things including that they have no wisdom or discernment and are the blind leading the blind!
SUSAN, You are SO right.
The Lakeland Revival was never of God because it included the Straders’s and anybody who had wisdom, brains or discernment would have seen this!
Stephen Strader is as much as a liar, thief and deceiver as Todd Bentley! Stephen and Karl Strader who are real thieves have proclaimed for years that Dan Strader is innocent and he was framed. See Not Innocent” http://www.a2zbookdepot.com/xxcrxxoxxoks.pdf. And this is an obvious lie and if the Straders are provenly deceived about Dan, they are deceived about everything else.
If Pastor Stephen Strader or John Arnott or Che Ahe or Bill Johnson were true men of God operating in the gifts of the Spirit they would have seen that Todd Bentley was a false prophet from day one. Before the Lakeland revival I saw and heard Todd Bentley make many false prophecies which showed me he was a deceiver and a false prophet! So obviously none of the leaders who crowned Todd Bentley in June are or were true men of God but deceived duped ones who were deceiving others.
And John Arnott lied on his web site that Todd Bentley was being counseled and was submitting to counsel etc. when the truth was that Todd told them to get lost!
So the bottom line is everybody at the revival was and is a charlatan! All those who supported Todd Bentley in anyway need to repent for many things including that they have no wisdom or discernment and are the blind leading the blind!
Maybe Mike Bickle never came out ‘publicly’ and supported Todd Bentley, but never the less, paid IHOP staff did. Regardless of that, Mike still believes that barking like a dog and clucking like a chicken is a ‘blessing from God the Spirit’, he still embraces Bob Jones as a mighty prophet of god (Todd Bentley’s spiritual father), he continues to heavily promotes the heresy of Contemplative Prayer (pagan prayer techniques) and feeds it unashamedly to the impressionable youth and last but not least, Mike Bickle is still selling the works of blasphemous, John Crowder. Enough said.
Anyway the point of the post was IHOP/Cult-like tendencies. Is there not a problem when a member can aggressively defend a leader who holds to these heresies?
Dear “Me”:
By supporting and lying and covering up and promoting Bob Jones and Paul Cain and C Peter Wagner’s agenda, Mike Bickle OF COURSE was supporting and endorsing Lakeland and Todd Bentley.
Jones and Cain and Wagner and Bill Hamon have come under the curse of William Branham’s false teachings and heresy.
Todd Bentley was given the “mantle of William Branham” at Lakeland by Che Ahn, who is affiliated with iHOP and Jones and the other NARbots.
To try and slice Mike Bickle out of the travesty that was Lakeland is impossible unless Bickle denounced Lakeland and Bentley.
But first, he would have to give a holy accounting for his sin of backing demon worshippers like Jones and Cain who fomented Lakeland.
Bickle has done this fancy footwork of sin for years to keep Jones and Cain and Joyner going, when he KNOWS the truth about the enormity of their lies and false prophecies and demonic manifestations.
You yourself, “Me” come under the curse of “preaching another gospel” as Paul spells out in Galatians if you endorse Bickle.
Show yourself approved. Do your homework on Branham. God requires it for His saints that we might “rightly divide the Word of God”.
Do your homework. Time is short.
Maybe Mike Bickle did not say a word about Lakeland…but he should have spoken against it? Don’t you think? I saw Lou Engle on the pulpit at IHOP and this is what he said…I transcribed it word for word.
Lou speaking:
I stand here today ..I’ve been on the phone with Rick Joyner and Bill Johnson. They have never seen anything like the coming of the glory. People are being delivered from additions during worship. Frankly I have to confess that I struggled in my own heart with this whole thing. Yet I’ve known it’s the Lord. I felt like the Lord said today Lou…”Don’t just stand back”. Bob Jones is saying “this is the Third wave that I saw”. Then I felt like the Lord saying “Don’t just stand back aloof from this outpouring pray that it intensifies…it spreads through the whole land and people start getting saved. We have to be careful this could be a manger and you don’t want to miss the birth place of something that offends your heart. I just feel I’d like us to stand and cry out to God. They said it’s coming here…let it intensify….let it spread. Bill Johnson said “It’s beyond miracles. It’s the glory realm that’s coming”. We’re learning to stand in the glory….and I don’t understand it but I felt like the Lord said “Don’t let your heart be offended” I want you to pray that it spreads and intensifies and out of KC we should not just stand aloof but we should pray that it intensifies. I want you to pray with me.
Father we say it’s the Latter rain…it’s signs of the glory that is on us…We believe for more and more and more. Bring it here to KC…intensify it nationwide until people are being delivered of every kind of demon, every kind of mental disease…God we call on you…Jesus what about doing good and healing all who are oppressed of the devil. Lord breakout with your goodness and mercy all across America…come to KC…come in the way you wan to come….but come send the Latter rain…take away our arrogance and any pride in our heart. Lord if we are somehow something different…oh God open the healing of our children….for every sickness and disease we are now calling on you. Thank you God. Rick Joyner said that God is answering the prayers of the Call. I say God …could it be that you are answering the cries of eight years of day/night intercession out of KC? Lord….MORE…MORE…Come Come Come Come Come.
It’s already on us and we are believing for more….stadiums will be filled with signs and wonders…but your hand on Todd Bentley mightily….pour out in Lakeland….spread it around the whole nation. You should pray for the rain…in the time of the Latter Rain… at the Call in KC we began to pray that 2008 would be the beginning of the great awakening. I don’t want to miss it…what we been praying for..
Father a prayer reformation…that leads to the greatest awakening in the history of America…Lord rip through the nation…amend NBC and ABC…shock the news …shock the media with your glory…Oh Jesus we saying you’re the one…come and offend our pride,,,but come…come…come with the latter rain of glory…deliver us from our additions…deliver the men of America…they are groaning under their addictions…set them free God…come with a fast deliverance Jesus.
BTW…MANY in my church were afraid of Lakeland…after this endorsement they packed their bags and flew down there and got on board. It was a horrific thing to watch.
Ester,
Is this endorsement available on tape/video? How did your church find out about it?
Ester,
Do you have the date of this endorsement?
Laura,
My church is highly involved in IHOP right now and I am very bummed. I may have to leave real soon. Anyways, the church streams live from KC all day,everyday. It was around May 20th …not exactly sure. I was warning my friends about Lakeland and when Lou Engle said this on stage a few of them called me and told me it was now official..Lakeland was of God because Lou said so. I at that point went into the God TV archive from earlier that day and transcribed word for word what Lou was saying. I then put it in a word doc and hit save. I can tell you this is exactly what he said..it took hours to copy it word for word.
Thanks, that helps.
I have been going to IHOP once a year for 5 years and have listened to lots of Mike Bickle teaching. All he really preaches is read your bible, love Jesus more, Pray and Fast and give to the poor. I think his teaching is amazing. I’ve been encouraged to study the word and get more of God.
As for lakeland, We had over 20 people visit from the UK and all reported to get closer to God during their visit. There was obviously some dodgy stuff going on with Todd but God still used the hunger of the gathered to move some people on in Grace!
I’m just wondering if all the people who slam the 24/7 Prayer movement are forgetting the Temple in OT Times? Night and Day prayer is scriptural. Yes, there is truth that you believe that your prayers are heard, but there is also the Harp and Bowl belief, that the prayers of the saints fill the bowls in heaven. Read Revelation and tell me your thoughts. Search out the scriptures before assuming that you have the word of truth. Everything Mike teaches is backed by scripture, check the source before slamming him.
Regan
Nobody here is slamming Mike Bickle for 24/7 prayer. It is the surrounding beliefs and practices that are the controversy.
You’d best check the facts too
@Regan: 24/7 worship and prayer took place in the temple in Jerusalem in the Old Testament. The temple is no longer there, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. So our whole life should be a life of prayer and worship. And worship is not only singing worshipsongs and prophecying. Your whole life is worship: when you do your work, take care of your family, love people, give to the poor…
So making a special 24/7 ministry the way IHOP is doing may seem right, but it looks like turning back to old ways that were normal in the Temple in Jerusalem… If we should do that, than we have to do sacrifices too, and all the old laws in Leviticus.
And why did Jesus come? He did not say: ‘Go ye all into the world and do 24/7 worship and prayer’. He said: ‘Go into the world and make them My disciples’.
By the way, I love worshipmusic, and making music for God, but there is more than that.
My introduction to participating in the pentecostal movement was my attraction to Mike Bickle’s 24/7 House of Prayer. Where were Protestants doing anything like that? I had to go to KC and see for myself. I was further impressed that he wasn’t pretrib and I enjoyed a lot of the worship. It was my belief and conviction that God is calling His people to prayer and intercession that caused me to connect with IHOP by connecting with those in my area who were into IHOP.
I disconnected when Bickle started centering on the Israel Mandate and stated that that was the main reason for the prayer and intercession and IHOP movement.
I was always uncomfortable with Paul Cain and Bob Jones and never trusted their words. I could not sense the Spirit in me bearing witness to them and what they were saying. Bickle’s promotion of Jill Austin was something I never understood. I saw good men like Sam Storms and Steve Carpenter leave the movement and I knew it was time for me to leave as well. The use of tongues and Bickle’s doctrine of tongues was unbiblical and as much as I wanted to be part of a prayer movement I had to leave.
Prayer and intercession are still Bickle’s calling card, but he continues to be associated with false prophets. Is that God?
Dear Regan: the problem with 24/7 prayer is that the groups that i know that practice it do not put Works to their Faith expressed in their “intercession”.
In fact, the 24/7 prayer I have seen out of iHOP as practiced in my former church is that false prayer of ‘binding principalities” (we do not have a right to bind principalities, by the way. They were taken down once and for all on the Cross. Jesus never bound principalities, never taught that we have a right or should be involved in “re aligning the heavenlies” either. Binding and loosing does not have to do with binding demons, by the way, either. It has to do with binding or loosing someone from the church community. Look it up. None of the disciples “bound demons”. When Jesus did rebuke the Devil with Peter, part of the “rebuking of Satan” was to TEACH Peter that his ways where not God’s ways. Thus, the rebuking of the strongholds in Peter’s mind had to do with correcting Peter, not binding some demon. Think about it…!)
What the Lord has shown me about that ridiculous harp and bowl prayer is that these people do not confess or acknowledge their own sins as normal intercessors should do; indeed INTERCESSION is IDENTIFYING WITH THE SIN and standing in the gap for the sinner because we ourselves are just as prone to sin. None of the groups I have been involved with do this.
INSTEAD, they assert their own righteousness before God and pray as if they themselves are God as they bind principalities. Then they believe they have ‘evangelized in the spirit realm” and don’t bother to preach the word to the unsaved. They hide from the world in their 25/7 prayer mindset.
This is false asceticism and wrong in God’s eyes Faith without works is dead. Binding principalities is prideful hubris, trying to re-do what Christ already did for us INSTEAD of being an obedient servant who will lay his life down for the foolishness of the Gospel and openly preach the Word to the unsaved.
The lack of identification with the sin of the unsaved is the most problematic part of most of the 24/7 prayer I have seen and of course this is why it is not successful. You would think that iHOP would be converting the world by this point with all the “prayer” they have offered up. However, because they worship William Branham’s false Christ instead of the real Jesus of power, and do this self righteous fake intercession, nothing happens except the prayer warriors themselves hide from the world and feel self righteous.
It’s insane. Mike Bickle needs to repent of covering up Bob Jones Rick Joyner and Paul Cain and Cindy Jacobs’ lies. God will not bless those in sin. Anyone in agreement with Bickle’s false teachings and false stand is also in sin — so there is no fruit (except the fruit of Lakeland) out of the 24/7 movement.
P.S. To Regan — study to show yourself approved about what the difference between ‘wrestling principalities” and “binding principalities” is all about.
We wrestle against principalities because we are wrestling with our own tendency to sin — we are wrestling against sinful mindsets (promiscuity, abortion, lying, theft) that exist in the world. Binding a demon of lying does nothing if we continue to lie. Think it through an do a study on it and you will see that C Peter Wagner’s “strategic spiritual warfare” is bogus. And it is definitely not preparing people to evangelize by preaching the word!
Miriam..Have you had time to go over the teachings that came out of Onething? I was wondering if you could go through it and point out the error. I am praying that it will help people see the truth.
I just listened to some interesting teachings on the illuminati (also the Bildergerg group). John Todd was a former high level witch who bacame a Christian in the 70s. He ties the illuminati (high level witches) with the Charismatic movement of the time, and their plans to create a one world church. Sounds a lot like the the NAR today, eventhough the tapes/teachings are from the 70s. This is mentioned in “explaining the illuminati PT 2″.
http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot/2008/08/john-todd-former-illuminatist-explains.html
correction:
http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/2008/08/john-todd-former-illuminatist-explains.html
Ester - not yet, but I will go over then when I get a chance! Thanks.
@AriseMyLove, I think you are right.
I’m making a biblestudy for our biblestudy group about what we really have to fight. Not the demons, principalities and the devil, but our own heart, our own mind is the greatest battlefield. We have to guard our heart for attacks of the enemy (defend with truth, and faith), but we don’t have to go out for battle and fight in an offensive way with principalities.
Like the writer of Hebrews says about the sword. That is not for killings demons and devils, but it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. That’s the battlefield. It’s about living a holy life, dying of self and bow before God. Satan knows that, so he tries to get our souls by misleading us to hunt him and his demons and not take care of the sins in our own heart.
Jesus defeated satan when He died on the cross and rose again, He has already won. Interesting story is that of Gideon (Judges 7) where God said that Gideon had to have a small army so Israel could not be pride of the victory, because God was fighting for them. Jesus has already won the battle, so we can not be proud of throwing out demons or defeating the devil (like Ana Mendez is proud of being a ‘general’ that had a fight with the devil…). Sometimes those who are so busy with spiritual warfare, become proud. They think they have beaten the powers and won the battle, but they forgot to beat the sin in their own heart.
That’s why NAR-people don’t take sin seriously and do not repent.
Thanks Ruitje, the hardest part of my “victories in Christ” is the crushing of my own prideful ego when my own sin is revealed. Thank God for His forgiveness.
Bless your biblestudy. You got it better than I did about the true issue of spiritual warfare: our own sin.
You both make excellent points R and AML.
I shuddered when I heard pray-ers practically ordering God around demanding this and that and declaring things as if God had to do whatever they say. Whatever happened to humbly asking God?
Ruitje,
You say,
“I’m making a biblestudy for our biblestudy group about what we really have to fight. Not the demons, principalities and the devil, but our own heart, our own mind is the greatest battlefield.”
But the scripture says,
“or we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
So, according to God’s word it is such forces as “principalities” and “spiritual hosts of wickedness” (demons) that we must fight.
HOWEVER, you bring a good point about the battle in the mind. The mind is the vessel that we can allow the influences of such demonic forces to influence us. We must wage the battle in the mind.
My point is, we cannot throw the baby out with the bath water, just because some choose to misuse this verse and blame EVERYTHING on demons but take no responsibility for there own personal sins.
The greatest weapon of our warfare is not declaring, prophesying, or casting demons out. Truly, our greatest weapon is just simple obedience.
Mike and Diane Bickle are very blessed people. They are radical believers and work very hard to teach the truth. IHOP interns pay 5K for half a year because they are in a school/internship. They use materials and live in houses and use up water and electricity in someones home for 6 months. They go through alot of materials and get meals. They encounter God and hear teachings and are3 surrounded by God’s presence. along the way they meet people and learn new things. I reccommend re-evaluating some of your “facts”. They are not making people pay to pray. they are giving an opportunity for learnig in a healthy environment much like a university or community college would. this past year IHOP gave 1,000,000 dollars to the poor. In order to continue pooring into peoples lives they must charge a fee to make materials and for all the resourses that others will be consuming. it all ends up going right back to the students and people all over the world who tune in via webcast. I cannot believe the ignorance of the church and how people cannot grasp this concept. I pray that God will give you a fresh revelation and new understanding.
I enjoyed 2008 IHOP Onething Conference at KC. Music, most teachings and messages. But I left when two staff urged, almost forced the audience to support finacially the IHOP musicians and interns. It made me very unconfortable and made me leave. Then questions arose about IHOP and Mike Bickle.
I have been looking into Ihop since my son announced last week that he wanted to do the 3 month Fire in the Night internship. He is 20 and has always had a real desire for God. Something didn’t sit right with my spirit when he talked about going to FITN. I don’t want to discourage him in his relationship with the Lord but I am growing very leary of Ihop. Please pray for my family as we seek the Lord in this.
I can’t fully comment on IHOP. The main issue for me regarding IHOP is still the assication with the Prophetic Movement. There not fully into it but still have ties such as Bob Jones being the man that Prophisied the whole movement and Rick Joyner visited a while back.
At the same time Mike Bickle has been pretty open in the choices he has made in his life and Ihop as a community I believe have a clear view on the end times alot clearer than the rest of NAR.
Its kinda hard to explain, the Prideful Spirit that operates in Renewal and with NAR does not exist in IHOP. I don’t believe there all looking to be somebodies in the sight of man, at the same time there vision for nations is way greater than NAR.
My endorsement for IHOP would come from there teachings regarding Israel and the Middle East and there support and unity with the Messianic Leadership in Israel. I think if someone is called to intercessing regarding Israel Ihop would be a great base. Other internships etc I cannot really comment on.
I’m seeing a lot about NAR. What does it stand for/what is it?
Thanks
NAR = New Apostolic Reformation, thid wave Latter Rain dominionist false apostles and false prophets all under C Peter Wagner and Chuck Pierce.
@ Boards and nails
I would say spend time alone with God and pray it through. Ihop is a safe environment made up of students from different streams looking to encounter God through his word and spirit.
Dear NOTBYWORKS
You wrote:
“or we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
This does not mean we “bind demons.” Wrestling against principalities means wrestling against the SINFUL MINDSETS of our culture. Like lying stealing abortion etc. Paul is talking about our own wrestling, as Jacob did with an angelic principality, for his blessing. Notice the wrestling was not over until Jacob realized his own sin. Wrestling with principalities is wrestling with our own sinful nature, not making declarations against principalities!
That we can bind principalities is a huge lie of the iHOP/Wagner movement.
DEAR BOARDS AND NAILS:
I interviewed someone I knew from church when he came back from iHOP.
He was not happy with the way things were going there. I quizzed him on why he was spending so much time and a lot of money on a “school” that was not even accredited. He told me that afterhours, the spirit there was so weird and legalistic, that the kids all went to the pubs and partied.
Notice that this is a sign of Jezebel — sexual immorality. He went on and on that it was not what it was cracked up to be — that he learned more from our church (at that moment some years ago) then he did at iHOP. Do your research on Mike Bickle’s ties to Bob Jones and read Eddie Gruen’s take on things at Kansas City.
Personally I believe Kansas City is the locus of a lot of anticrhrist activity. There was a false prophecy given by Joseph Smith of the Mormons in 1831 about Kansas City… that the “Christ” of the Mormons would return to that place. The NAR and Mormons are listening to the same demons…
BE CAREFUL. Faith without works is DEAD and so is false warfare without works…
Hey BB:
I have spent considerable time at IHOP between 2000 – 2004. Both for harp and Bowl and the Joseph’s Company group (marketplace ministry). I have actually sat down and had diner with Mike Bickel. Mike is very knowledgable. He’s a reader like me. He devours books. Many of Mike’s teaching I love, However, I 100% agree with you on the lack of discernment of his associations. I am no longer supporting IHOP with finances nor do I go to KC anymore. I stopped.
Why?
Due to Bickel’s endorsement and continued support of Bob Jones. The same goes for Allen Hood a major sidekick of Mike’s. This web site exposes Bob for what he is, which is a liar, a sexual pervert and one who practices the occult. He’s under the influence of some kind of new age demon or something. Channeling to heaven? Female angel Emma? It goes on and on and yet Mike Bickel will not disassociate so I had too.
My concern is KC is now toxic with this spirit carried by Bob Jones. I don’t care how accurate he prophesied 25 years ago, the man is not right. Stay away.
End of story.
David
My son has been in the media apprenticeship program for over 6 months and the year prior attended classes. He is very intelligent and can make his own mind up when he wants something. He does consult the Lord in every move he makes as it should be in my opinion. This does not make students mindless by any means. I only wish there were more prayer rooms like this available for students that are unable to travel due to financial circumstances however, prayer can move mountains and if a student wants to be involved with something like this it is certainly going to happen. Also, they are led to Jesus’s heart and find themselves moving to do what they think Jesus would do. The music of IHOP can’t be bought anywhere but at the book store or their online website, however you can freely walk into the prayer room (without having to pay to pray by the way) to get a sample of revelational music that will have your hands in the air and your spirit singing. It’s free will to go and most are happy to be there. The young kids learn about hard work and perseverance along with patience and becoming powerful prayer warriors. My son is not a zombie doing what they tell them. In fact, he has learned a lifetime skill being in the media apprenticeship that will provide him with skills that he can take anywhere. He met his future wife there as well. I have only seen good things coming from IHOP and I have been familiar with it for a few years now and subscribe to the prayer room for my own benefit. I don’t know much about Mike Bickles past, however, I do know there is no one that can judge him unless they are free of sin themselves. God knows what is in a person’s heart and he will be the one judging. I don’t see Mr. Bickle leading the younger generation in the wrong direction. Try taking Alan Hood’s class “Excellencies of Christ” If anyone finds fault with that they are living with a veil over their life. This class has left me laughing, crying, and ‘gazing’ upon the beauty of who Jesus was, is and is to come.
2 of my kids have gone to IHOP. Our church (not Penticostal) has had contact with IHOP over the past few years. None of you know me, so you really don’t care about my opinions & for the most part I don’t know if you all are on the right path or are conspiracy kooks. I know that there are young people there that are truly hungry for God’s presence in their lives that are drawn to the place. I also have a feeling of concern that somethings not right. The associations with Paul Cain and the KC Prophets are very troubling. Since our people have been in contact with IHOP there have been significant problems at our church. There is still an underlying tension present. I believe there will be a time that any errors will be exposed concerning IHOP, Mike Bickle et all. The question is; will people listen. The “Lakeland Revival” and Todd Bentley have been exposed, yet many still hold on to what they want to believe about that event.
I am concerned about the state of the Church. Our enemy is working to distract and divide. Mike Bickle and IHOP are not the enemy, nor are they the servants of the enemy.
I am concerned about the state of the Church Todd
Todd – Anything that is part of the Third Wave or the Church of the Flesh is demonic and will demonstrate the works of the flesh including sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies. So you and your church are in trouble!
The devil is not stupid and he knows scriptures and man and what lure to use to catch and deceive man just like He deceived Eve who made Adam sin also!
When I go fishing I use a lure which is nice and shinny and sparkling and even dances in the water to catch the unsuspecting fish which thinks it’s a real minnow?
And the devil is not stupid and he is using IHOP and The Third Wave to entrap and catch many young people who are hungry for God! And Jesus told us:
MT 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
7:16 “You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
7:17 “Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
7:18 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
7:19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
7:20 “Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
7:22 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Acts 13:6 Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus,
13:7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.
13:9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him
13:10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?
13:11 “And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.” And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.
13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
The Third Waver’s are NOT TRUE BELIEVERS… They are William Brannon followers, Jesus Only cultists… They are high wizards that are leading believers into the New World Order and trips to the Third Heaven with introductions to another Jesus, another spirit, another gospel… They are also leading Christians to submit them instead of being submitted to Jesus and His Word. These are evil cruel men that are totally demon possessed exactly like Rick Warren….
Hence they refuse to repent because they are so deceived that they don’t see anything wrong with what they are saying and doing even if it’s contrary to the world of God including being an adulterer, having a mistress, dumping your wife and family to marry the Mistress, and being blessed and forgiven for this by others in the Third Wave!
But the word of God tells us what we are to do to the false ones in the Third wave who are sons of the devil. We are to tell them that they O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? And pray real judgment upon them just like Paul and Saul did to a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus.
As a matter of fact if you think about it Todd Bentley, Patricia King, John Arnott and others in the Third Wave are Wizard, witches and Sorcerers with their gold teeth, angels feathers, diamonds and jewels, gold sprinkling, astro projection, etc! All things that are practiced by the New Age.
And we don’t bless but curse such kind of people! And say what Paul said: GAL 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
I came out of a church that came under the NAR and Bill Johnson. So many problems have arisen since a group of them went to Lakeland instead of God for their New Anointing. One young man announced he may be gay, one woman left her husband announcing he needed to look for another woman because she is looking for another man, and one woman I know quite well is fearing insanity, she cannot get control of her emotions or thoughts. All of these were involved in the soaking, acting drunk, strange worship practices that I used to be involved in, except, I heeded God’s warning and repented and got out.
Charlene, I am going to repeat what was said in the synagoge by the Pharasses when they brought Peter and John before them and then Paul, If it is of man it will disperse and die away, but it if is from God, no man can stop it. (paraphrased). If this is from God, then men will flourish and learn how to resist satan and stand and not fall to every whim, but if what has been happening in various places happens to your son, then one day he may experience some trouble that he is not equipped to handle and fall away. I pray he doesn’t, but this superficial, hyperemotional spiritualism only lasts as long as the good feelings do. This I know all to well. I will be praying for your family.
Todd,you wrote:
“I also have a feeling of concern that somethings not right.”
May I suggest you ask the Lord Jesus to show you what that “something” is, He will. May I also suggest you pray for your children and Church to be given a “love of truth” and that nothing and NO MAN be put on a pedestal in their lives. Pray that the Lord Jesus and His truth be first in their lives. Pray also that they just read the Sciptures instead of always studying Mike Bickle’s teachings. We need the whole counsel of the Word to grow into maturity.
I believe your concerns and that feeling of something not being right is from the Holy Spirit, THE Sprit of Truth trying to lead you into the truth about what is going on.
Many errors have been exposed in regards to IHOP and Mike Bickle over the years and many people have come out from among them. Many others continue to follow in error and delusion. It is quite a confusing “swirl” when one is involved.
Yes, many young people are hungry for more of the presence of the Lord and desire to be wholehearted and the message Mike teaches really convinces one that doing the “one thing” as he defines it, praying 24/7 and fasting is the way to know the Lord in a deeper experiential way. These two biblical disciplines are emphasized to a extreme degree.
He is very charismatic and uses “loaded language” that grips the emotions, his vision for himself and his house of prayer is very grandiose. Like the Cults he also teaches his followers what kind quesitons they will most likely encounter by those on the outside and prepares them with “loaded phrases” that stunt real deep thinking, questioning and discernment. A common response a IHOP-er would give to someone questioning what they are involved in is, “Burning hearts make dull hearts uncomfortable.” The point being that THEY have the burning heart and YOU do not because you are questioning their teaching and practices which seem to contradict the Scriptures.
He believes God is changing the understanding of Christianity through his ministry in one generation. I find that quite astonishing actually, that Mike is the one who is chosen for such an exalted task. Where do you find this in Scripture? He is the one who tells of his experience in Cairo Eygpt where he alleges he heard the “audible voice of God” who told him this. I find it curious and wonder, “Did he test that spirit? Did he test that message? He tells many fantastic stories such as this that seemingly always somehow exalt HIM, HIS calling and HIS ministry. Dreams, prophesies and “encounters”, angelic and otherwise are sought after and emphasized. It is an unreal, hyper-spiritual counter culture.
Everything revolves around the house of prayer and Mike, and no one wants to “miss anything”. He has an amazing way to create a swirl of excitement. There are many spirits at work there.
I believe he draws people after himself and his grandiose vision all the while telling everyone, “It is what the Holy Spirit is doing at the end of the age.” He teaches the young adults they are going to be end-time “apostles” who will release the judgments of the Lord through prayer. There is great elitism and selfish ambition at work. People circle around Mike and vie for his attention. Most of the foundational “blueprint” prophesies for Mike and IHOP came from Bob Jones and Paul Cain.
His ministry requires the time, finances and life of his followers. Many have signed a pledge called the “Sacred Trust”. There is a “devouring” aspect to his ministry.
If you measure the teachings of Mike Bickle against the plumbline of Scripture in context you will know where the error is.
I am writing from experience, I was part of it for some time. Mike Bickle does have some good teachings but there is a lot of mixture as well. The emphasis “apprears” to be on a individual realtionship with Jesus BUT the structure demands 8-10 hours a day in the prayer house plus administration hours all the while “raising” ones own support and when that doesn’t work finding gainful employment. Many live at poverty level, go into debt because they cannot raise support, use welfare and stand in lines to get food. But they keep getting taught about “supernatural provision” and there are always lots of “glory stories” but not too many of the “gory stories ” are told from the platform.
Mike teaches his followers to live a “fasted lifestyle.”
I observed in myself and those around me, that we were not using critical thinking skills and examining everything we were being taught like we are told to by the Lord Jesus and writers of the NT.
As far as all the giving to the “poor” they say they are doing I would suggest you examine the financial statements (if there are any) before you just believe what Mike and his staff are telling you. In the past Mike has not wanted to be accountable to a true board, he has stated he wanted to run the finances of his ministry like Benny Hinn does. He tends to surround himself with “yes” people, those he can easily control. Most people who tried to bring accountability didn’t last too long as that is not what Mike wanted.
Will people hear? If they are willing and have a love of truth, they will.
God Bless!
PS There are many articles here, also there very good articles at signofjonah blog site. Tricia Tillin of Banner Ministries, Cross+Word also wrote many excellent articles about the roots of IHOP and Mike Bickle.
I have been a student at IHOP’s music school (Forerunner Music Academy) for the last year and a half and the Lord has done so many great things in my life. I can testify as a student and an active part of IHOP that I have not been brainwashed, demonized or deceived. If anything, I am more in love with the Lord and I know more of who He truly is.
All of the Classes I have taken are theology based; We have studied Hermeneutics and Exegesis so that we can really understand the Bible. Whenever Mike Bickle teaches, he ALWAYS tell us to research for ourselves and to not just take His word–because He could be wrong.
My heart is so saddened that the church is in such dissension and so divided. Instead of debating and and creating more division amongst our brothers in sisters in Christ-couldn’t we be out ministering to the the lost, the poor, the orphans and widows and sharing the love of Christ? At the end of the day, it’s all about the Father’s Love.
Charlene,
If your son is at IHOP, and you said he is, then he is practicing Contemplative/centering Prayer.
I’m sure your son is smart and you feel that if he’s seeking Jesus, he can’t be involved in anything but the best. THE PROBLEM IS.. that contemplative prayer = transcendental meditation which has its roots in Hinduism which is occult. Therefore, practicing contemplative prayer is actually taking part in the occult.
And Charlene, don’t get mad at me like I’m throwing stones at your kid or something because my kid is there too and I thought he just couldn’t be missing God because I just knew he loved Jesus.
Problem is that when I learned about IHOP and Contemplative and realized Contemplative Prayer was actually occult AND brought up my concerns, my Jesus loving son was counseled by “older and wiser counsel” to cut off ALL communication with Mom for “one year at least”.
I really hope the Lord opens yours and your child’s eyes to the deception there. We are so very close to His return.
SP
Dear SadParent, who is paying for iHOP? If you are, cut off the funds
If you are not, as i know it is not an accredited school that can furnish financial aid the way regular colleges do, I suggest you take antiCult action.
You also need to challenge your son on the IHOP false premises — if they are doing intercession, then that means that they are identifying with the sin of the sinners they are praying for — not the C Peter Wagner way of “making declarations” simply because they are part of the NAR and therefore more “godlike” than the rest of the hoi polloi.
I would be tenacious and not stop trying to email him. IHOP cannot overlook the Word where is says “HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER so you will live long in the land”
They are teaching him to dishonor God by dishonoring you. It is a cult tactic. Let him know. When I was in a Christian Cult, they preached the same garbage to me.
mike asks his listeners many times if they would challenge what he says by the bible and read for yourself. God is absolute truth above all that we know and can understand. maybe there is a money trail, and his teachings are way outthere. but the bible says to be humble and to love one another even your enemies. so if you dont quite understand or belive in something someone is saying, go to them in utter humility and love towards the person to find out what truth really is. There are so many different belief systems out there but only god can judge the hearts of those who He has created. I am no bible scholar and i am not sure where i stand on all of my beliefs, but i read the bible and i love god, and He gave his son for me, and my life is in debt towards god. love a god fearing young man. philemon 1:8-9 and philippians 2:1-11 :]
Been there done that. I was young and got lured in when it was South Kansas City Fellowship (early 1980’s) 24 hr prayer…the solemn assembly and 40 day fast. I can tell you will every fiber of my being RUN AWAY FAST!!! I can’t count how many friends lay on the side of the road called spiritual carnage. One was molested by Bob Jones as he “prophesied” over her. It makes me angry and sick to see so many young people still sucked in. Don’t check your brains at the door. Many IHOP members have gathered around the apartment managers (my friend who is now a Christ follower and was not at the time) office when rent was due to cry out to the Lord for their rent to rain down from heaven. They would plead to her for mercy. I say there is an answer….it is called a J-O-B!!!
Nothing has changed but Mike has updated his wardrobe to seem hip and appeal to a new flock of non critical thinking sheep.
God’s Word is real, Jesus is real….the IHOP stuff is made of the makings of a nightmare. Beware.
Any organization that encourages believers to spend great time in the Word and prayer daily, seek Christ with every fiber of their being, fast regularly, live pure and holy lives free of sin, and serve the poor and hungry regularly should not be written off as a cult. By the way, anybody can enter the prayer room anytime free of charge.
Shall I buy you some tickets to Waco, Mark?
Mark,
Mike Bickle is pushing Contemplative Prayer, right? Mike keeps teling his listeners, “Hey, don’t take my word for it! Read your bibles!” – right? Only where is Contemplative prayer in any bible? NO where. Bickle has twisted scriptures around for them to “support” contemplative but God’s word tells us to meditate ON HIS WORD – not to have our minds go into an area of nothingness.
Nothingness is exactly what it takes to make contemplative prayer “work” for you. I’m telling you, the great deception is happening all over the world and it is definitely taking place in Kansas City, MO. Led by Mr. Bickle.
SP
…and remember in the last days there’s going to be a lot of people who start to head-on-into heaven and Jesus is going to stop them. They’re going to remind Him about all the things they ‘did’ for Him. The miracles, the prophecying, the casting out demons.. a lot of really good stuff, right? And Jesus is going to shake His head and tell them, “Depart from me. I never knew you.”
Then it’s off to eternal darkness for them.
Mike Bickle needs to really ask God for forgiveness and ask God to show him the error he’s been teaching – before time runs out for him.
SP
I am korean many people reconmended IHOP so i went there 3 months….. Now I thanks lord that show me two side of american church. Many people say Ihop is good why? because my friend or pastor or somebody say good so is good….
When i was IHOP i saw crazy thing and they say there is no lapture and Kingdom now totally massup bible they mix all kind other religion and focuse jew culture. I am not go na jew I believe Jesus even he is jew i don’t care and i am not go na jew I will stay Jesus arms
You all need to be very, very sure you know what you are talking about before you say that Mike Bickle and IHOP are a cult. When a pharisee accused Jesus of casting out a demon by the power of Satan He warned that you can say whatever you want about Jesus and ask for forgiveness, but don’t you ever… ever ever ever ever say anything bad about the work of the Holy Spirit. This sin will not be forgiven.
IF… you publicly say that Mike is running a cult I believe this is the same as saying he functions under the authority of Satan.
AND IF… you are wrong and the Holy Spirit is really working through Mike…
Be very, very sure you know as much as you think you do. Jesus does say that by the words of your mouth you will be saved, and he says that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN IN THIS LIFE OR THE NEXT.
If you are not spending time fasting and praying and REALLY getting to know the Holy Spirit and letting him reveal the truth of scripture to you as he promises to in John 14…
“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
You should be very careful about what comes out of your mouth. The greatest minds of Israel were taken completely by surprise by the arrival of Jesus. Will we all be so prideful to think this corrupt and sinful world is so much more prepared for His second coming?
I have never been a member of IHOP, I am no expert on their teachings but after reading about 20% of this blog I can testify to MANY lies that have been spoken on this page.
I beg you with all christian love and compassion, please be sure that you are not acting in the spirit of the pharisees when you condemn a ministry.
Dear Boxnix:
Put it to you this way. If Mike Bickle was a witness to all the lies, false prophecies and deceit of Paul Cain and Bob Jones from the beginning of the Kansas City movement, why did Bickle FAIL TO DO THE RIGHT THING BY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and denounce the Satanic counterfeits he was aligning himself with?
Boxnix: you cannot and I repeat, you CANNOT TOLERATE JEZEBEL’S FALSE PROPHECIES as per Revelation 2:20.
It is Bickle who needs to be warned and warned again about his false leadership and counterfeit stand with Cain and Bob Jones.
Now, Boxnix you have done your homework on Bob Jones and Paul Cain, correct?
You are aware of iHOP and Bickle’s connection to them?
You understand that the sin of Paul Cain and Bob Jones is not just “missing it” prophetically once or twice, but that they are Jezebelic false prophets who practiced Baal worship?
You do understand this is what the issue is? And as a side note, 24/7 prayer without attendant evangelism and strong apologetics for the Word of God is presumption, and not intercession, right? You do understand that we “pull down strongholds and every argument that resists the knowledge of God” not through prayer or iHOP incessant prayer, but through witnessing to the unsaved and attempting to present the Gospel to them so they no longer have Satanic strongholds of THINKING in their minds? You do understand the wrong emphasis on incessant prayer of iHOP? Right?
Okay after you figure out that we have no right to make declarations or “bind demons” or “bind principalities” then you need to understand why the whole Kansas City movement is of SATAN.
Let’s start with Bob Jones, Mike Bickle’s “friend”. Whom Bickle “tolerates” and therefore rebels against the Word of God.
Jones was in a mental institution for a while. Jones said that God told him that God would give him back his sanity if Jones either “forgave 12 people or murdered 12 people….”
Okay, Boxnix, ponder that for a while. Then ponder this.
In the early 1990’s Jones was at the Anaheim Vineyard. A mother and her daughter reluctantly went to the church authorities to report that Jones had them strip naked in his church office, together, WHILE he was “prophesying” over them. So basically, Jones was in some sort of sexual perversion WHILE HE WAS PROPHESYING over this mom and her daughter.
He did NOT repent of this. He dismissed this as “catching a lust demon” from one of his critics. Oh yeah, and Rick Joyner was supposed to have “restored” Bob Jones at that time. (NOT.)
Bickle sat by with all of this. Bickle has known that Jones is a false prophet and has DONE NOTHING FOR YEARS.
Then let’s take Paul Cain, Bickle’s other false prophet friend.
Cain, like Jones, also molested people while praying and prophesying over them. But Cain did it, not in an incest situation, but, a homosexual situation.
Cain would pick straight men and sodomize them while he was praying over them that these men would no longer be ‘homophobes”. Do you get it? He was praying/prophesying over these men WHILE HE WAS IN SEXUAL PERVERSION AND RAPE OF THEM.
THIS IS B A A L WORSHIP, just like ancient Jezebel taught.
Mike Bickle, because he has not denounced and distanced himself from these liars of God, is in danger. His whole iHOP prayer thing is tainted. With all the prayer done at iHOP, btw, WHERE IS THE FRUIT? Boxnix?
There is very very little fruit compared to the grandiose iHOP claims over the last decades. This is because there is an entire generation of people who have been inculcated in a false charismatia of the NAR cult.
Wake up Boxnix. We have done our homework. You have NOT.
Boxnix:
Here’s an article on the faulty basis for the whole 24/7 prayer thing — the whole reason for which IHOP was built. If this is the foundation, how can the rest be assumed to be solid?
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/confusion-on-the-davidic-tabernacle-ihop-mike-bickle/#comments
This is merely one example of Bickle’s twisting of scripture to suit his own ends. Cults are built on half-truths.
Dear Boxnix:
You wrote:
“…I have never been a member of IHOP, I am no expert on their teachings but after reading about 20% of this blog I can testify to MANY lies that have been spoken on this page…”
Boxnix, you realize that a testimony of the lies that you say were stated on this thread means that you de-construct and give evidence for the lies that you say you can “testify” to here?
In other words, just stating that you “can testify to MANY lies” doesn’t mean anything, until and unless you actually give evidence as to what the “lies” are.
So, feel free to testify.
We will be waiting to read what you say.
Bless you in meantime and be very careful with your evidence as to the “MANY lies” given here on this thread.
Miriam, is there any followup to “rah’s” comment that a friend of hers had been molested by Bob Jones (comment 80)? I’d be interested in communicating with her.
“rah” wrote:
“…Been there done that. I was young and got lured in when it was South Kansas City Fellowship (early 1980’s) 24 hr prayer…the solemn assembly and 40 day fast. I can tell you will every fiber of my being RUN AWAY FAST!!! I can’t count how many friends lay on the side of the road called spiritual carnage. One was molested by Bob Jones as he “prophesied” over her…”
I will admit I am ignorant to the KC prophets issue. I will certainly educate myself on that. I think to say that I have not done my homework and you have is a bit presumptuous. First of all I did not presume to know everything, I simply said what is in scripture and I stand by my original point. If you say Mike Bickle is working under the authority of Satan then I think you could be betting your soul. Maybe not, I’m just saying be sure.
You said:
“Okay after you figure out that we have no right to make declarations or “bind demons” or “bind principalities” then you need to understand why the whole Kansas City movement is of SATAN.”
Jesus specifically told his disciples to go cast out demons (Matt 10). He even says people who are not even saved have the power to cast out demons (Matt 7:22). We do not have authority over principalities but I must disagree with your inference that IHOP teaches that we do. They teach that God can hear us and loves us enough to answer our prayers to break in with HIS power in global issues like abortion, sex slavery, addiction etc.
As for the sins of the KC prophets, if those things happened (and I do intend to educate myself) then I stand against them but I can not say that their sin negates all prophesies. Some of their prophesies have been confirmed. Like the one that Mike would have a ministry of King David in that he would start 24 hour prayer and be constantly at war… Ironically, you actually helped fulfill that one. The last time God had a perfect man to speak through we killed him so all he has left is sinners.
The fruit of the ministry is going to be tough for us to debate. I have found a much improved relationship with Jesus by getting rid of some things I was filling my life with. TV, movies, parties (not eliminated yet, but reduced). Some of it was not even sinful it was just wasteful. I had a fantastic knowledge of Star Wars but almost no knowledge of who Jesus really is. From what I have read things I would call fruit most people here would call cult behavior. When I see people give up everything between them and God to come to know Him better I call it fruit. Anna wasted her whole life in the Temple waiting to see Jesus. Her ministry did not bear a single piece of anything you would call fruit but I promise you she has a special place before the throne today. I believe Jesus would call her heart fruit.
My intent is not to protect IHOP. They knew you were coming before you did and I have no affiliation. I’m genuinely horrified at how many things I see on this board that I know for a fact are lies. I agree, we must stand against the spirit of Jezebel. I just hope you know her when you see her.
Doing my homework… This is a clip from wiki.
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In 2004, Cain temporarily stepped down from ministry during controversy and accusations of moral failure. In “A Letter of Confession” posted on his website[1] and excerpted in Charisma Magazine[2], Cain admitted, “I have struggled in two particular areas, homosexuality and alcoholism, for an extended period of time,” both considered sinful within the virtue ethics of the Evangelical paradigm.
In April 2007, he re-emerged into the public eye and resumed speaking at meetings throughout the U.S and abroad, though his rehabilitation was questioned by the three ministers (Rick Joyner, Jack Deere, and Mike Bickle) who publicly disciplined him three years earlier stating that they lacked confidence in his rehabilitation and do not consider him restored.
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So not only did Paul Cain publicly repent for his sins but Mike publicly spoke against his sin. I’m still researching… Very curious about all this.
Well spotted, Arise, I didn’t spot that!
Rah, care to tell us more?
Dear Boxnix:
Cain did an infamous “prophecy” in a lying spirit at Lakeland a year ago, then Jones and Bentley yanked him off stage and he really hasn’t been heard from since. I think Joyner or someone did some “mea culpas” for him but he’s obviously out of his mind.
Bickle Joyner and friendz pronounced in the late 1990’s that Paul Cain and Bob Jones were the “Two End Time Witnesses of the Bible”…
so this is a real mark down in prophetic stature for Cain.
Or, as is most likely, the Jezebelic spirit of false prophecy has overtaken the entire NAR/iHOP/Elijah List mindset, and it is the “great delusion” or great Apostasy that God promises “He will send” upon those who no longer love the truth or tremble at His Word.
In other words, Boxnix, these people are under that “strong delusion” that God promises He will send.
Sorry to be so facetious. It is quite obvious.
As to taking down a Jezebel, I actually had a lot to do with the Lord pulling down a Jezebel in my former church. This is the one year anniversary of it.
She was prophesying, alright. In a familiar spirit. Very interesting how God really answers prayer in with power once we trust in Him rather than the NAR culty mindsets of counterfeit Christianity.
I did not say anything about “casting out” demons; or even “rebuking Satan” both are of course things Jesus did.
I wrote about “binding” demons.
Or “binding’ principalities.
Big difference.
We “wrestle” against principalities, we do not “bind” them
And no one in the Bible EVER “bound” a demon.
The whole “strongman” story was a metaphor, not an example for prayer.
Bless you Boxnix and keep researching.
Boxnix wrote:
“…We do not have authority over principalities but I must disagree with your inference that IHOP teaches that we do. They teach that God can hear us and loves us enough to answer our prayers to break in with HIS power in global issues like abortion, sex slavery, addiction etc….”
God already “took captivity captive” and dealt with the principalities on the Cross.
Our job is not to “re do” what God did on the Cross through constant or incessant prayer.
Our job is to believe that “My Word never comes back to Me void” and go out and carry the Gospel to the Lost by PREACHING THE WORD IN SEASON AND OUT OF SEASON.
We deal with abortion not by praying against a “spirit of abortion” but by witnessing to someone who may be considering abortion.
We can intercede by taking the position of a murderer or abortionist in intercession and then asking mercy on ourselves and every other abortionist or murderer out there, but THEN we must go in and witness to the abortionist and murderer to REPENT by preaching the Word.
In other words, prayer is great, but iHOP fails to teach EVANGELISM and intercession is no substitute for you or me personally laying our lives and reputations on the line for Jesus by preaching the Word to the unsaved.
We are never to “remove ourselves from the world”. This is the lie of monasticism that Paul preached against.
We are to flavor the world and the unsaved with our lives that are “salt and light”. iHOP does not seem to teach this.
How are the unsaved to be converted if no one preaches the Word to them?
What good is 24/7 prayer if these prayer warriors never go out and do the works of faith?
Faith or incessant prayer without works is DEAD.
Just think about it a little. And bless you again Boxnix.
From Post 1: “Follow the money trail”.
While I am not affiliated my sister has been with the ministry for 10 years. I have had the opportunity to see the houses of some of the top leaders in IHOP. They live in very old, very humble houses, drive junky cars. As some one else testified, MB still lives in the same duplex and drives the same car. One of the Asian leaders was GIVEN a Benz. He refuses to drive it lol. I have never seen such a humble spirit. If IHOP is a 10 year elaborate scheme for Mike to hide money, live like a pauper and then disappear with millions I will shave my head… I’ll shave all my kid’s heads. Some one made a comment about a paid staff member. I’m not 100% on this but I think most, if not all of the senior staff raises at least a portion of their own support. This is not where you go to get rich.
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Post 10:
God directs the timing of intercession and prayer. Praying around the clock is meaningless unless it is something God directs. IHOP promotes self-righteousness in this manner.
This assumes that you know everything that there is no way God actually told MB to start 24/7 prayer. Just to give one scripture…
Matt 9:35
“The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.”
There is no timing indicated on this command to pray. It is also a prayer about something God already knows about but yet JESUS commands us to pray it. This specific prayer is prayed regularly in prayer rooms.
There are several posters on this page that argue that there is no reason to pray to God because His will is set and there is nothing we can do about it. Jesus spent tons of time asking God to do things. God was going to destroy Israel and start over with Moses but Moses disagreed and God changed his mind. Similar principle with Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham. Jesus said himself in red letters that he would not come back until Israel wanted him back and cried out “blessed is He who comes in the name of The Lord”.
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AML:
A TRUE INTERCESSOR is called to stand in the gap for sin. He takes on the sin himself in prayer.
I’m a bit confused by this one. If the “He” is capitalized because it refers to Jesus then I agree. If it refers to the person praying then I just don’t know what to say. It would really help if you would back up stuff like this with scripture. This sounds a lot more like something that sounded good in your head than something actually in the bible.
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I disagree in general with the consensus that God can not do work through a sinner. Any time some one is revealed to be a sinner you discount the entire body of work the Holy Spirit has done through them. My church had a preacher that we found out was cheating on his wife with a man. We kicked him out. Had our church been large enough to warrant a flame war like this you would be calling us the New Gay Loving Methodist Cult. The fact is, God ministered through that very broken man before his fall.
I again stand against the sin these prophets committed, but that DOES NOT mean that everything that has ever come out of their mouth is from Satan. The hypocrisy of this statement is profound. You sin, I sin, we are in ministry. Why is our ministry left legitimate while these men’s 50 year body of work is deemed from Satan? Some of them prophesied wrongly. That does not mean they were listening to Satan. We screw up some times. Prophecy is not an exact science. Sometimes it’s God, sometimes it’s lunch bubbles.
Some of them prophesied rightly, then sinned. That does not mean they never got anything right.
Anyone ever read the story of King David? That guy did some horrible things but God did great things through him before and after he sinned.
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Sadparent:
contemplative prayer = transcendental meditation which has its roots in Hinduism which is occult. Therefore, practicing contemplative prayer is actually taking part in the occult.
Yes, lots of false religions utilize contemplative and meditative prayer. They also wear cloths, worship in buildings, write books about their religion. Your logic leads to us all taking part in the occult because we wear cloths, build churches and read bibles.
I’m begging you, please read your bible and let the Holy Spirit explain it to you like Jesus promised he would.
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I just found this blog yesterday. I need to read the rest before I can comment.
Dear Boxnix,
I have succesfully finished a 10-year investigation of the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) of which Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Bob Weiner, Rice Broocks and many, many others are an integral part. In the case of Bickle and the doctrines of his Latter Rain buddies Paul Cain and Bob Jones, and Bickle’s plagiarized invention of IHOP and the “Tabernacle of David” etc. All of their doctrines and practices are based upon Jewish Kabbalah occult doctrines of a 17th century London-based cult known as the Philadelphian Society:
http://www.passtheword.org/Jane-Lead/
My extensive analysis proves beyond any doubt that the Philadelphians embraced the Lurian Kabbalah doctrine of Gilgul or the reincarnation of souls toward “perfection.” Latter Rain terminology such as “birthing in the spirit”, “Many-membered Manchild”, Corporate Christ, “Mainifest Sons of God” and Bickle’s “Tabernacle of David” stem from this 17th century occult sect whose doctrines were also plagiarized down through the centuries by Joseph Smith, Emmanuel Swedenborg and others.
God has repeatedly warned Bickle, Broocks, Weiner, Wagner, Hamon, Sheets, Jacobs, Shultz, Hammond, Robertson, Shambock, Roberts, and 1000s of other false NOLR leaders to repent, but they have repeatedly refuse to listen. Now, they are “going to the next level” and have entered the “judgment of reprobation” which results in God holding then in their own sins till Judgment Day. It has already started about ten years ago. They will wax worse and worse as the days go by.
You need to get a handle on this and start embracing HISTORY that is being repeated in the 21st century. Bickle and his compatriots are doomed along with all those who put themselves under their illegitimate authority. They were never “Romans 13″ authority. Their judgment will be swift ans sure. They know no boundaries.
The research and investigation has methodically been done.
NOLR said:
All of their doctrines and practices are based upon Jewish Kabbalah occult doctrines of a 17th century London-based cult known as the Philadelphian Society:
It is going to take me a while to wade through the info in that link. I am really shocked by this claim. They are praying… to God… Jehovah. It’s not witchcraft, it’s prayer. Their doctrines are that we should love Jesus more. If you don’t like their take on the end times stuff then thats fine but I have never heard anything taught there that is not biblical or aligns them with the will of Satan. Do you have a specific teaching from IHOP that you believe aligns them with the occult? This would be much easier for me to “get a handle on” because as you have already figured out I am not as smart as you.
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AML said:
Faith or incessant prayer without works is DEAD.
This is almost a scripture verse backing your argument. The problem is you changed it. I can do the same thing, watch this…
Faith without works or incessant prayer is DEAD.
See I believe prayer is more of a work than you do. I’m ok with this being an agree to disagree kind of thing. I think that if you have faith that God is real and do nothing then you fall into the group this verse warns about. I don’t think praying is the same as doing nothing. You still have not given any scriptures to support your claim that it is the same as doing nothing. I want to know what Jesus says, not what you think.
You keep talking about evangelism like it’s the only ministry worth doing, but Paul talks about evangelists as just one of the 5 fold ministry. I think it’s important to be balanced but I don’t think IHOP is as unbalanced as you say it is and to compare it to a monastic lifestyle is like confusing the sun and moon. They are going around the world with huge conferences. One Thing alone brings in 20,000 people who are not a part of their day to day operation. I personally would argue that these conferences are their evangelism. Just because they are confronting the lack of scripture knowledge in local churches and not standing at the door of an abortion clinic does not make them any less an evangelistic movement. I realize you hate what they teach, that’s another point to argue.
The prayer room I am involved in goes out every Saturday to talk to strangers about Jesus, I can’t imagine IHOP does not do something similar. I’m sure you would rather we evangelize 6 days and pray one, and thats fine, you make your ministry as God calls you. I just don’t see how you say ministries that don’t focus on going out confronting the unsaved is demonic. I really need specifics and scripture. Again, you are dealing with a lesser mind here.
Boxnix,
What I said about contemplative prayer being EQUAL to TM was not just me talking. I have read multiple books by those who practice it – ones who call themselves believers in Christ, and books by admitted New Agers who believe God is in everything that has a molecule. Both agree on one basic thing: you have to have your mind go TOTALLY BLANK and must repeat a word over and over and over until your mind goes into a state of COMPLETE SILENCE.
Give me your home address and I’ll send you 100 bucks if you can show me where that is in your bible. Because if it’s there, then I should be doing it too. But it isn’t.
How did Jesus TELL his disciples to pray? (That’s right, he wanted our prayers modeled after the Lord’s prayer.)
You mention that to any IHOPpers though and they come back saying “oh you’re practicing ‘religiosity’”
To which I say, “no I’m not. I’m being obedient. I’m doing what the Lord verbally, plainly and simply stated we’re to do.”
God’s word is simple. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Then comes that “peace that passes all understanding”. THAT’s what I rest in.
Sorry this site has disturbed you. IHOP changed my once loving son into a complete stranger to me. I believe it all goes back to the deep dark practice of contemplative prayer. I believe that the “one” the people doing it
SP
My computer cut off my sentence..
I BELIEVE THE “ONE” THE PEOPLE DOING IT ARE COMING INTO CONTACT WITH is a demon. Nothing more, nothing less.
SP
Dear Boxnix:
You wrote: “… I disagree in general with the consensus that God can not do work through a sinner. Any time some one is revealed to be a sinner you discount the entire body of work the Holy Spirit has done through them. My church had a preacher that we found out was cheating on his wife with a man. We kicked him out. Had our church been large enough to warrant a flame war like this you would be calling us the New Gay Loving Methodist Cult. The fact is, God ministered through that very broken man before his fall….”
Boxnix, there is an ongoing dialogue on this site that you are just now embracing. Of course God can work through a sinner. He at times, works through me! But you are criticizing me for my discussion of Bob Jones and Paul Cain’s egregious sin here, not the layman’s sin.
In both Jones and Cain’s case, they are PREACHERS OF THE WORD. I could care less that they assign themselves the lofty NAR idea of “SuperProphets” etc (this is more of the research you need to do on them, btw, the super Apostle and super Prophet thing)
Both men are disqualified, as your former pastor was, to be preachers because of their sickening sexual perversion. Jones and Cain are disqualified to be leaders of any kind in the church. Preachers and elders are to be “of one wife”. Cain may not be of “one wife” but his sodomy disqualifies him. Jones should be back in a mental hospital, not on tv giving “prophetic words”. Bickle will burn in Hell for supporting Jones and he best repent now before it is too late for him as well.
Do some research on Che Ahn’s church plant, The Gateway. The Lord alerted me to this supernaturally two and a half years ago because He said to me that “the way your own church, Arise, will be attacked is the way The Gateway was attacked by Satan. And the way Satan attacked The Gateway was through the flattering words of false prophets who caused people at The Gateway to bow down to their Promise in God rather than bow down to God.”
This is the issue of Deut. 13 — when a false prophet exposes himself by causing you to bow down to something other than the Lord. The way this NAR demon and familiar spirit works is that it causes people to worship their Promise in God rather than God Himself. Very sneaky. But the Lord proved He was talking to me by providing me with an antidote to give to my former church: He said the way to prevent this attack of false prophets is to do what Abraham did with his Promise in God: Abraham took his promise to the mountain and put the knife to his son Isaac. Isaac was Abraham’s Promise in God.
It was all very cool. And of course, a few months ago, the former gay pastor of The Gateway wrote in to this site and us and said what Miriam and I have been posting was all COMPLETELY TRUE — that the sickness in the false prophets, Cindy Jacobs, Jill Austin, Jim Goll and the rest of the iHOP gang of spiritual thugs, combined with the sin sickness in him and caused this man to wound his own flock.
This is too much info for such a short space. Google and search around this site to get the true story.
Next you wrote:
“… I again stand against the sin these prophets committed, but that DOES NOT mean that everything that has ever come out of their mouth is from Satan. The hypocrisy of this statement is profound. You sin, I sin, we are in ministry. Why is our ministry left legitimate while these men’s 50 year body of work is deemed from Satan?…”
I already answered that. There is no New Testament or Post Pentecost “ministry of the Office of the Prophet”, which is what is confusing you Boxnix.
The Old Testament “Office of the infallible Prophet” died the moment the curtain was rent in the Temple. This is because the ‘better thing” the Holy Spirit has come and there is no longer that primitive, OT need for a Prophet to be lambasting the Jews for their sin during the Yom Kippor cycle of yearly sacrifice for the sins of the people.
The Lamb of God has come once and for all, there is no need for a “school of the prophets” or the “Office of the Prophet” because “all” are to be “ambitious to prophesy” and modern prophesy is not a national thing, but true modern prophesy should be given in an accountable venue, where one can check out the personal lives of the people giving the prophesy so that ‘one or two can give a confirming witness” to the prophesy.
Read my article on Bill Hamon: Strongholds for the End Time Delusion to understand what these people are doing mind twisting the flock about modern prophesy.
Boxnix, you also wrote:
“… Some of them prophesied wrongly. That does not mean they were listening to Satan. We screw up some times. Prophecy is not an exact science. Sometimes it’s God, sometimes it’s lunch bubbles.
Some of them prophesied rightly, then sinned. That does not mean they never got anything right.
Anyone ever read the story of King David? That guy did some horrible things but God did great things through him before and after he sinned….”
Boxnix, you fail to understand that JOnes and Cain believe the William Branham lies of the Manifest Sons of God doctrines and the Latter Rain heresies. This means that this is the spirit by which they are prophesying.
This is why Cain lied oncamera at Lakeland: he is prophesying under a lying spirit.
This is why Bob Jones cannot prophesy anything but half truths in a familiar demonic spirit — why all of his prophesies from last year have fell flat just months later at Lakeland etc.
The words “false prophet” and “false prophesy” don’t do the concept justice.
What this really means is that a DEMON is speaking through these men, Boxnix.
Just like how the Lord allowed a demonic being to prophesy through the false prophet who spoke to King Ahab.
The Lord is allowing this demon to speak through Jones, Cain, Goll, Jacobs, Pierce, Austin (past tense), Joyner, Hamon, Wagner, etc., etc., because the Lord promises He WILL SEND A STRONG DELUSION TO THOSE WHO DO NO TREMBLE AT HIS WORD and who NO LONGER LOVE THE TRUTH.
Finally, my point about intercession and Bickle is that our only point of connection with the Lord is not through making self righteous ‘declarations” in the spirit realm. We do take on the Lord’s “breastplate of righteousness” as our own in warfare but this does not mean we ourselves have the right to make binding declarations in the heavenlies as is taught by these NAR liars.
Our position in prayer is not to “play God” by binding principalities rather than wrestling with their sin mindsets personally — or binding demons — something never taught or practiced in the Bible — our position in prayer is as Jesus taught ‘in spirit and in truth”, a humble understanding of our own sin and that this sin is as heinous as any murderer’s sin or any pervert’s sin.
Because Paul taught that we have no right to “judge” those on the outside of the church, only those on the “inside” of the church can we judge — then this means our prayer position is always for mercy on the unsaved and encouragement and understanding for those who claim Christ.
Hope that explains some of your questions. You really need to do some homework on Branham. He was a nut who barely knew the scriptures and was controlled by some demon. Miriam has here on her site some testimony of one of his assistants who finally figured out why Branham always had people close their eyes before he’d pray for them. It was because Branham was conjuring up a spirit not the Lord in order to “pray” for people. Very dangerous lunatic who thought he was Eljjah.
Bless you Boxnix.
Boxnix wrote:
(as you quote me) “… Faith without works or incessant prayer is DEAD.
See I believe prayer is more of a work than you do. I’m ok with this being an agree to disagree kind of thing. I think that if you have faith that God is real and do nothing then you fall into the group this verse warns about. I don’t think praying is the same as doing nothing. You still have not given any scriptures to support your claim that it is the same as doing nothing. I want to know what Jesus says, not what you think…”
Boxnix, you need to see that iHOP is involved with a five fold ministry, yes, but we believe it is a five fold ministry of counterfeits.
Wagner: false warfare with the basic idea that you can evangelize through prayer alone.
Hamon: false ideas and sinful teachings on the nature of modern prophesy
Joyner: false scenarios for the End Times, Joyner is AntiChrist in his denial of the Father and the Son and the difference between them. Joyner has written “Jesus is spirit, not a man”.
Jones/Cain/Jacobs/Goll/Bentley/Pierce : these people believe they are bigger and better ‘prophets’ than me or you. They believe they stand in the OT “Office of the Prophet”. They believe as Hamon teaches, that they need to go through an OT ‘School of the Prophets’
even though Jesus says “Let no man teach you now that the Holy Spirit has come”… and Jesus says “they of the OT longed to see this day, but did not see it.”
Boxnix, i need to write up why this is a counterfeit Christianity, all these disparate NAR teachers and doctrines. Your questions are great and welcome and there are very good answers to them all. You must understand this is Satan’s AntiChrist Church, and iHOP is a part of it. This IS the Strong Delusion that God will send, JUST as God sent a deluding false prophet to King Ahab.
Give me a day or so and I’ll write up something new on this. Bless you and pray for me and Miriam. Remember, it takes a true prophet to tear down the false prophets, and that is what this website is all about. Miriam was told before Lakeland that it was a farce, amongst a myriad of other things prophetically.
I would appreciate it. I’m doing an internship with a local prayer room this summer and I am very concerned to see so much hate speech for a ministry that really turned my life around and that I plan to start being a part of. Both sides are saying the other is being influenced by a demonic spirit and prayer room leaders generally have fantastic bible knowledge. I’m honestly trying to do my own research and not recite things I have heard at IHOP.
Sorry to interrupt here, but a year ago I was around a church for a few months that had a thing called sozo. A sozo ministry that was used to help people get through difficult situations. I investigated the concept and found a lot in common with secular psychology, and the Men’s Fraternity program called Authentic Quest for Manhood.When I talked to leaders in the church some mentioned how they were uncomfortable with the questions asked by the sozo minister. Questions about there past and stuff that was long ago under the blood of Jesus Christ. I got a look at the sozo program paperwork andwas suprised that it stated requirements like “no johnwaynes for Jesus”, all sozo ministers must be themselves sozoed, obey church authority and sadly obeying God was at the end of the list! This church charged congregants for time they spent in Sozo sessions like a real psychologist. On the face it all sounded good, but on closer look I saw secular humanism disguised as church ministry. The Sozo paperwork also claimed their roots were from people in California who went to investigate Carlos Anacondia’s revivals in South America and condensed some of histeachings one of which is called the “Four Doors”. I happened to read Carlos book called “Listen to me, Satan” and I don’t remember any reference to anything called the “Four Doors”.
To sum up my interest I want to ask all of you here what do you hear or know about Sozo? Online googling has shown zero critical investigation of this new fad in the church. I have found roots for this thing in the Bethel Churches of California I think under Bill Johnson leadership? I’m very bothered by this fad because I see it usurping God’s authority and glory in the name of christian science. I also see it as offending the Holy Ghost because it relies on secular psychology instead of wisdom and discernment in the light of God’s Word. Please comment I see big danger here.
Boxnix – See Soul-Scalping Christians
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16163599/Soul-Scalping-Christians
See Third Wave Exposed
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15902535/THIRD-WAVE-EXPOSED
Robert:
I’ve not exactly heard of what you’re referring to; but, I have two comments. First, I received a bogus ‘prophetic word’ two years ago and in it the word ’sozo’ was used and I believe it to be a sort of buzzword bandied about within the NOLR. Second, I’m concerned about your statement:
Questions about there past and stuff that was long ago under the blood of Jesus Christ.
I’ve a feeling this will be used as a weapon against the individuals later if said individuals exhibit any reluctance to follow the leadership. I’ve not witnessed this firsthand; but, I’ve read about this sort of thing happening.
Here’s the entire ‘prophetic word’ given to me by an IHOP/Bickle influenced individual:
Heart – Sincerity, genuine, tender, kind
This is what draws people to you and what attracts God to you. You have a heart like David and God sees it.
The Lord wants to go deep into your heart and heal those deep wounds of the past.
I saw a vision of the Lord holding your heart and examining it. He turned it gently identifying all of the weak spots. He put His finger on each one touching those spots bringing healing. Then He filled your heart with His love. It was beautiful! It was radiant and shone like a beautiful gem. It was restored and whole. I saw the Lord gazing at it’s beauty with an expression that looked like “AHH, that’s it! That’s what I intended it to be.”
These words came…
SHALOM-Nothing missing, nothing broken.
SOZO-salvation, transformation of spirit, soul and body. Complete healing and deliverance.
He wants to restore your heart to its original intent.
I see Him wanting to draw you into a deeper level of knowing Him. An intimate level. He wants to reveal His love for you in greater measure. I see Him drawn to your heart like David and wanting to come near.
There are gifts He’s placed in you that He wants to use for His Kingdom in your sphere of influence. You exude love but there’s a greater love that He wants to demonstrate through you. When people encounter you, they will encounter Jesus. You will go out in the power of His love and might.
To do so, He wants to fill you with His love first so that you will overflow to those around you. He wants to demonstrate His love for you in a tangible, powerful way.
I see this as an invitation to come up higher in your walk. God’s eyes go to and fro searching for those who will answer the call. God is looking for worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Most only worship in truth. It’s a head knowledge. They know tons of scripture. But they haven’t experienced His Spirit. There are 3 parts to the tabernacle. The outer court, the Holy place and the Holy of Holies. The Holy of Holies is where He dwells. He’s inviting you to step into the Holy of Holies.
There are quite a few things wrong with this ‘word’ the most egregious being the last part about the tabernacle. New Testament Christians ARE the tabernacle/temple with the Holy Spirit indwelling.
Note also “He wants you to come up higher in your walk” which makes it sound as though there are first and second class Christians. And, it seems that EVERYONE has a ‘heart like David.” Also, I see hints of Bickle’s heretical ‘Bridal Paradigm’ in this.
Bless you, Boxnix. I pray that the Lord will give you wisdom and discernment. Perhaps a few words from a veteran will help you sort things out.
I’ve been in several local prayer rooms for years. I visited Colorado Springs once and IHOP-KC 3 times (specifically not during a conference — just during day-to-day operations). These are a few observations:
1–It is easier to find out the underlying doctrine of a prayer room when it is linked to a local church (or when the majority of the leaders belong to one). Prayer rooms obviously are for worship and prayer. But HOW and WHAT they pray for is influenced by teaching. This is really, really important!
2–Even when the prayer room is linked to a church, when the team leaders study the scriptures themselves and do not rely on someone else’s teaching, the prayer and worship is fresh and authentic. Watch out for parroting. It is expected from the young; it is dangerous from the leaders.
3–When personal holiness is valued above image, young people grow.
4–When charismatic team leaders attract wannabees, if they can defuse it through humility and consistent pointing to the Lord, the prayer room will stay healthy.
5–When the prayer room has a balance of mature AND newbies, there is a better chance of sticking to basic Bible.
6–Discern the purpose of the prayer room. If you sense that the leaders are wanting to tear down principalities and govern the heavenlies, please run far, far away! Or note — is this a major focus? (Run far, far away and don’t return!) Or is it just one guy that goes overboard occasionally? (Stay and pray for the guy or leave during that session.)
7–Do your personal best to obey the Holy Spirit. And remember that the language of the Lord is best learned through the Scripture. The voice of the Lord is best heard when you give Him TIME!
8–Fasting can be helpful, but it is dangerous territory, too. It can help you to focus spiritually, but it can also open up your spirit to thoughts and ideas not necessarily scriptural. Don’t make any big decisions until after you break your fast. Fasting also has a tendency to inflate pride. And done frequently, it can mess with your physical metabolism.
I know this is long, but I hope it is helpful to you. There are many stories out there (including sadparent’s) which point to the dangers of enclosed communities. The Lord can guide you so that you find spiritual enrichment and not a snare.
grace
robert,
The Sozo is Bill Johnson’s baby and many foue square churche’s embrace it. It is supposed to replace the “cleansing stream” programs. Which are a type of Church AA. It’s all pesudo psychology! Here is some FAQ’s from BJ’s website, Oh boy…
General Questions
Can one Sozo session actually heal a lie that has been believed for many years? Yes. Once the Lord heals the first time the lie was settled into your spirit, the rest of your life experiences based on this lie will realign to His truth.
Specific Inner Healing & Deliverance
How do you minister to someone who received wounds while in the womb? I ask the Holy Spirit to come and show the individual where He was while the baby was in the womb. Then I ask Him to remove the poisons that the child fed upon during the pregnancy and to realign their body, soul, and spirit to only receive the proper nutrients and to no longer be able to “feed upon” the lies and damages that occurred in the womb.
If addictions are symptoms, then should deliverance be done without doing a Sozo first? Yes/No. God can always bring instant deliverance. I would usually like to follow up such deliverance with the ability to find out why the addictions were there so that they can walk in complete freedom.
In a ministry time how should deliverance be handled/done? Very gently. Deliverance is a by product of the wounds and lies healing.
Ministry Process
What do you do when you get a religious answer? I thank God for that answer and ask Him for another thought for the person.
Training
Starting a Sozo Ministry
When starting a Sozo ministry in your church, who should you start with? You should start with a small group of leaders that you can trust to be vulnerable.
Who should be Sozo leadership? The leaders of your team should be the ones sozoing the leaders of your church.
Does the training seminar give you enough in-depth information for you to be qualified to counsel with Sozo? Yes/No. You have been given all the information for the Basic Sozo but you can never underestimate experience. Jump in and give it a try. The CDs are helpful to “re-listen” to and to watch for any clarification.
Should you go through the Advanced Seminar, as well? Yes if you are going to be ministering to people. But you should wait until you have been doing this for about six months to fully benefit from the teachings.
Are we released to train others in the Sozo ministry? Yes/No. Usually, most people begin teaching with our DVD’s with their own leadership. They do a weekly training where you watch one of the sessions then begin practicing with each other.
Team
What if it is a 1st that gets in over their head, can the 2nd shut it down? Yes, but it is important to stay under authority. The second can gently ask the first (or write it down) if they would like them to “try out” something.
What if the 1st doesn’t recognize that they are over their head? The second should pray for God to bring breakthrough! Many times we are just one step away from an amazing revelation when we are feeling stumped.
Can I lead someone to receive freedom if I don’t have any myself? Yes/No. God can bring freedom to people even through unhealthy people. But, my concern would be on the effect the ministry would have on you if you are not healthy. It would most likely add a lot of stress to you. We see it often that team members who are not fully healed actually “trigger” in a Sozo session and come away having to have the first pray also for them.
Paperwork
What paperwork do you use? We use a simple liability release and a very short intake form.
Can I have copies of the paperwork you use for the Sozo ministry? Yes. But you will want to change them to your specifications. (They are in the Sozo training manuals – not the DVD manuals)
Donations/Fees
Why do you have donations/fees for the ministry? “A workman is worthy of his hire.” We are not supported financially by Bethel Church. We are independent contractors so we do not draw a salary for our Sozo sessions. Also, we find that people tend to value it more if they have to sow into their own healings.
What do you say to the people who are offended by being asked to donate or pay a fee for the ministry? We talk about the above reasons. But remember that sometimes a religious spirit will not bow to reason.
AND….Tuition – $500.00
WWJD?….tell you to run, don’t walk to the nearest exit!
And get Bill’s comment, “Also, we find that people tend to value it more if they have to sow into their own healings”.
HUH???? Sow into your own healing?????
Then Bill goes on to answer this, “What do you say to the people who are offended by being asked to donate or pay a fee for the ministry? We talk about the above reasons. But remember that sometimes a religious spirit will not bow to reason.
Yep that old “religious spirit” they so love to call us who do not believe their unbiblical LIES! But that is the NARzies answer to everything that don’t line up with scripture they spout!
Arise,
‘Finally, my point about intercession and Bickle is that our only point of connection with the Lord is not through making self righteous ‘declarations” in the spirit realm.
Our position in prayer is not to “play God” by binding principalities rather than wrestling with their sin mindsets personally — or binding demons — something never taught or practiced in the Bible — our position in prayer is as Jesus taught ‘in spirit and in truth”, a humble understanding of our own sin and that this sin is as heinous as any murderer’s sin or any pervert’s sin.’
I think it’s worth being very clear when you talk about this because the of the subtlety of the deception and define what intercession is. ie. Becareful you don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Intercession is essentially ‘Standing in the gap’ and is something that should be done as the Holy Spirit leads you. Intercession is always standing in between a person or people and God and pleading with God on their behalf. Like when Moses interceded for the people of Israel on the mountain and God spared their lives. The best example i can think of is Job 9:33-34 which many see as what Jesus now does for us believers before God.
Intercession is never making declarations in the Bible – Exodus 32 and read how Moses does it.
The ‘declarations’ and ‘binding’ I believe would come under the Spiritual warfare side of prayer and has nothing to do with intercession.
If i look at the binding of demons and principalities and its biblical basis i come up with the following quick thoughts. Firstly we all know that demons can be cast out – no-one doubts the validity of this, Jesus did it and his disciples. People were enslaved and tormented by these demons and were cast out in Jesus’ name. This happens today and there is no biblical basis for why it wouldn’t.
Commanding a demon to leave someone in Jesus’ name is not a prayer – it is neither a declaration. It is at this point that the deception can enter in, because in my opinion there are ways to define exactly what is happening here.
Deception says: You are Christ’s Ambassadors (2 Cor 5:20), you represent Christ here on earth and his authority has been given to you. Therefore using Christ’s authority you can cast out demons, you can declare words of faith and they will come to pass, you can enter into spiritual warfare with demonic powers and principalities and wrestle with them. Authority has been given you.
Now with that mindset now turn and view intercession. Do you see now what it changes? You represent Christ on earth and have his authority, are you going to plead with God in tears over a person’s life and that God heals/sets free/blesses or are you rather going to declare (with your authority) that these things come to pass? It’s obviously the latter, i mean, why plead when you can ‘declare’.
So if that is deception then what is the truth?
The truth is that when we cast out a demon we do so as Ambassadors but not in the capacity of representing Christ here on earth. This is critical to understand. We are not many ‘Christs’ walking about, free to do as we please, fighting powers and principalities. We are Ambassadors in the capacity of bringing a message from God (2 Cor 5:20 true use). We are servants who do the bidding of our Master. We do all things in Jesus’ name because he tells us to – that’s what it means when we say ‘In Jesus’ name’.
ie. I cast you out not with any authority I have, but because Jesus said you are to come out. That’s the role of the Holy Spirit, he prompts, leads and guides us.
It’s the same with healings and miracles – they come about only through Jesus working through us. We are tools in his hand and it’s an awesome privilege to be used by him to bring glory to him.
I hope you can see the differences. The incorrect view is why there is such a thing as Dominism in the church, and latter rain, manifest sons of God etc. They have been deceived into thinking they represent ‘Christ’ on earth, it’s why there’s even thinking that Christ’s second coming will be a huge rival of most of the earth – ‘christs’ coming into being. The same with Joel’s army that ‘nothing’ will be able to stop.
It is nothing new – people always lust after power, physical or supernatural.
Now carrying on regarding the casting out of demons and binding. The term binding is a biblical term:
Mat 16:9 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven.”
This is open to interpretation but people have used it to talk about spiritual warfare prayer. Now i want to bring up a point here. If Jesus is said a specific demon could only come out through prayer – is this prayer for deliverance a binding of the demon? Perhaps. I would not use the term ‘binding’.
There were however demons who the disciples couldn’t cast out and Jesus response was that ‘this kind can only come out through prayer’ Mark 9:29
What i am saying is that we should be careful in dismissing a prayer ’spiritual warfare’ of kind. I believe there is a place for it – especially since Jesus taught there are demons that can only be cast out in prayer.
There is also such a thing as demonic attacks or hinderance. Paul states that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but among other things ‘the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.’ Eph 6:12
Though there can be discussion about the translation, i doubt anyone argues that Satan seeks to disrupt and is like a lion looking for someone to devour.
However i would be hesitant to address them directly, unless prompted to by the Holy Spirit..in Jesus’ name. That i believe does have its place. We should however always go to God first in prayer, it is better to bring all our cares and burdens to him. I don’t believe that we have any authority or should speak to evil without a clear directive from God to do so. That is my own personal opinion on this matter.
I was led to fast and pray by the Spirit and was encouraged to go to IHOP because of the emphasis on fasting and prayer. I had to see this place where prayer was being offered up 24/7. Where is anything like this in the evangelical or Protestant world?
My first trip there the convention center was packed and everyone spoke in tongues at the same time and I felt a huge check in my spirit about that, but I ignored it thinking I needed to learn more. I saw many falling down and again I felt a huge check in my spirit that this falling down was more of the flesh than the Spirit. The Spirit was not bearing witness to my spirit that this was not of God, but again I ignored his ‘checks’ thinking I had to learn more and understand more before I ‘judged it’. I was grieving the Spirit and didn’t even know it.
Paul Cain was brought out who was guessing phone numbers and claiming to know things about people in the large assembly. Again there was this ‘check’ but again I ignored it. I found myself holding back from fully entering in and I sensed that the Spirit was behind me holding back although I told no one as I continued to enjoy the worship and the fasting and the personal praying over people to give a word.
The giving ‘a word from the Lord’ was dangerous as I found myself believing these ‘words’. There was a check again but again I ignored it since this was new to me.
My pentecostal friends could tell I hadn’t fully entered in and said they were praying for me. I finally told them that the Spirit had to open the doors to enter in and He wasn’t doing it. I kept waiting on the Spirit but….nothing.
What really alarmed me was the way many prayed to God. They were commanding God and making demands of God instead of humbly asking God. Everyone was encouraged to make ‘declarations in the heavenlies’ and many spoke directly to Satan and to fallen angels instead of the Father and Son. There was a great deal of pride in this kind of praying and I felt strong checks not to participate.
I went to KC four times listening for the Spirit to tell me this was where He wanted me but it never happened. I could not find pray-ers who believed in the importance of prayer back home. Prayer meetings were non-existent or sparesely attended and then only to read the list in their hands for the most part. There was little worship and love in their praying.
When the news about Cain’s homosexuality and alcoholism broke was when God finally woke me up. I began to look for someone, anyone who also were having ‘checks’ in their spirit and that was when I found Andrew Strom’s site. I realized that all those ‘checks’ were the Spirit telling me and warning me not to imbibe the spirits that were present. I had to repent of grieving him and tell my pentecostal friends that what was going on in KC was full of demons.
All I can say is that if there is a ‘check’ in your spirit, don’t ignore it like I did thinking it will go away. It won’t until you quench the Spirit and take in ‘another spirit’.
Mike Bickle is under the covering of Paul Cain and Bob Jones. Mike had men there who tried to correct him but he rejected Sam Storms and Steve Carpenter, great men of the Word and they left IHOP.
AML has been spot on in her posts here about IHOP. Miriam has started this blog to alert those being deceived by the ‘prophetic movement’. If you read enough on this blog the Spirit will open your eyes to the lies and deception and you will be free of ‘angel of light’ in our midst.
God bless.
Thanks BB for the kind words and I never get to tell you, because it seems we are always on different threads at different times, but I TOTALLY appreciate your balanced passion in your posts. And candor. This fight is against the Enemy, not the persons of the NAR and it does get gnarly…
Boxnix,
Let me ask you a question. Are you a follower of the theology of Manifest Sons of God, Dominionism, Joels Army, New Apostolic Reformation, Prosperity Gospel, etc.?
Dear Craig:
This was part of the false prophecy you received:
“…God is looking for worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Most only worship in truth. It’s a head knowledge. They know tons of scripture. But they haven’t experienced His Spirit…”
There are many many subtle distortions and lies of the NAR but this “head/heart” or “brain/spirit” split is one of the biggest ones.
Bill Hamon, who is a direct link to the late 40’s Manifest Sons of God/Latter Rain heresies and heretics, teaches this lie from hell especially.
The Bible, on the other hand, does not make a distinction between the brain or the thinking or the head knowledge of someone and their spirit.
The Greek word for Holy Spirit as well as our own personal “spirit” is the SAME and it means “vital principal or “rational seat”.
It means where we UNDERSTAND THINGS, in OUR BRAIN OR OUR THOUGHTS.
Again, the reason that the Lord Jesus Christ SEALS HIS OWN PEOPLE IN THE END TIMES WITH HIS INVISIBLE SEAL ON THEIR F O R E H E A D S
.. REMEMBER THIS…
JESUS SEALS US WITH HIS INVISIBLE SEAL ON OUR FOREHEADS
Because our foreheads are where our BRAINS are.
And where our brains are located is where our UNDERSTANDING IS.
IF we do not UNDERSTAND our salvation, we are not saved.
If we do not UNDERSTAND our weapons of warfare, we cannot fight the Enemy.
Understanding who we are in Christ IS OUR MAIN WEAPON!
But the NAR wants it to be a feeling.
They want us to be “in the Presence” with “minds shut/spirits open”.
I have written about how I did a quick survey of people I knew at my former church a few minutes after the service was over for a few Sundays.
NOT ONE OF THEM COULD RECALL WHAT HAD BEEN TAUGHT TO THEM IN THE SERMON.
The final friend of mine, who realized by my question that it was more serious than just my idle curiousity, said to me: “But what my mind does not recall, I know my spirit soaked up of the sermon!”
I must add one new thing that I just happened to read from Jim Goll.
Goll said that the entire Apostolic Prophetic Movement is constructed and going forth to demolish the old “Pastor and Teacher” positions and “old” teachings of Christianity compared to this “new” wine of their false doctrines.
Yeah. That’s what Goll said.
As we all have written or mentioned before this idea of “minds shut/spirits open” is a PERFECT WAY TO BRAINWASH PEOPLE.
And so, this is how the “great Delusion” is spread.
I would also recommend reading the this document
http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf
by Ernie Gruen, who, by the way readers of this blog, passed away June 1st 2009. My prayers go out to this family.
If the prophecies of Bob Jones, Paul Cain, and others regarding the ministry of IHOP were based on either unbiblical or non-biblical ideas/teachings then the foundation of this ministry is a false foundation. Even so far as to question which Jesus they are presenting.
I was never involved in IHOP directly but I can tell you that the church I went to was beginning to put into practice the concepts of worship (I was the main worship leader for this) and 24 hour prayer into action, even attending (including myself) a seminar from one of their members and my “red flags” went up so high I could not escape the fact that it was the Spirit of God that was giving me discernment that this was a totally wrong teaching, unbiblical to say the least, and even possibly heresy at worse.
Craig:
One last thing.
The false prophet over you also said that God “wants to restore your heart to its original intent”…
This is another subtle lie of the Enemy.
That if we had not been “wounded” in our lives, that somehow, we would have had “perfect” hearts and therefore God wants to “heal” us so the “original intent of our hearts” might be purposed in our lives.
Uh…
Do you see the false doctrine behind this prophecy given to you about “restoration to your heart’s original intent”?
Jesus says that every man is born under Adam and a lost sinner.
God cannot “heal” sin.
God can heal some of our woundedness and God does understand why we are prone to sin, but it is up to us to REPENT OF SIN.
There is no “original intent” in our heart that is GOOD.
It is all SIN.
And I mean even if we have been abused ALL OF OUR CHILDHOOD, all of our adult lives, we STILL WOULD BE BORN SINNERS UNDER ADAM.
And we would still need a Savior.
Just another prooftext that this prophectic word given to you was given by a familiar spirit or demon, Craig. It is THAT serious, yes. Only the Enemy would ignore the concept of original sin to make us feel righteous in our own flesh or our own hearts by telling us God wants to restore us to some sinlessness we “once” had.
It is complete poop. I would use a stronger word but I am a Christian.
The ‘declarations’ and ‘binding’ I believe would come under the Spiritual warfare side of prayer and has nothing to do with intercession.
This has nothing to do with spiritual warfare period! Look into the original greek and what these words mean and into the complete context of the scriptures that the verse is in. You will see that it has nothing to do with “binding” the enemy in the way the NARzies and “cleansing stream” and other deleiverence ministries use the term.
Dear DH:
I think that because I have blogged so much on this site previously on this topic and so has Miriam and others, there are some salient points being missed in our quick responses of late.
I agree with everything you have said except that there is no such thing as “binding a demon” in scripture.
Either it is cast out or it is rebuked by taking down the strongholds of thinking that caused Peter to tell Jesus it would not be good if He went to the Cross. And so Christ rebuked Satan in Peter and then proceeded to dismantle the “strongholds of wrong thinking of Satan” in Peter’s mind.
Google ‘binding and loosing” and you will see it has more to do with the 12 Disicple’s gift of INFALLIBILITY as they set up doctrine while writing the Word of God.
No modern prophet or apostle will EVER have the gift of Infallibility, btw.
(Much to the NAR and iHOP leaders’ chagrin!) Binding and loosing has to do with Peter’s position as an Apostle of the “Dispensation of the Son” BEFORE PENTECOST and needed in order to WRITE THE WORD of God.
Google around. Some great articles on it. It has to do with establishing truth and this is also why it is in Matthew 18 after the Lord tells us how to deal with an offense between brothers in the church; then He goes on to say “what you bind on earth is bound in heaven”… it has to do with what is established by the Church as truth concerning a matter.
Your thoughts on intercession are good and I agree with them.
I think the most sinful thing about any NAR or iHOP teaching is to get people to forget to IDENTIFY with the sinner as they pray. I see many of them seeing themselves as “righteous” or “more righteous’ than other sinners and going into their fake “warfare” based upon their self righteousness.
This causes them to make declarations and imprecatory prayers and have that sort of elitism you discuss.
Here are some articles I wrote up for Miriam on these NAR issues:
Spirit of Division at Harvest Rock, Che Ahn’s church
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/the-spirit-of-division-at-harvest-rock-che-ahns-church/
Rick Joyner Apostle Paul and the AntiChrist
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/rick-joyner-the-apostle-paul-and-the-antichrist/
Bill Hamon’s Strongholds of the End Time Delusion
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/bill-hamon’s-strongholds-of-the-end-time-delusion/
sozo bozo…
Thanks Craig,
After reading your postt it reminded me of something else. These church leaders I spoke to said it was weird how these sozo ministers and trainers would pray with them and “always” end their prayer with “and you will be a great sozo minister in the world” .
Another thing I am reminded of is how similiar sozo and “The Quest for Authenitic Manhood” from the Mens Fraternity of Robert Lewis use the same thing of sitting people down in groups and having them divulge their secrets in their past. Mens Fraternity paperwork I saw even goes as far as having the group leader write these things down and passing them up through the chain of leadership. The church I went to that promoted Mens’ Fraternity, the pastor said he was given literature for free by a fellow congregant who got it from Promise Keepers.
Now that I think about it, this thing of secrets being shared for control is oddly like that of freemasonry control and manipulation of sharing your past dark secrets to hold members in bondage.
Thanks Craig, But why is their so little discernment and exposure going on online?
The Spirit of IHOP vs the Holy Spirit
If the spirit that Bickle, Cain, Jones and the rest of the people in IHOP (Latter Rain) was really the Holy Spirit of scripture, and given the apparent spiritual objectives relating to 24/7 Spiritual Warfare prayer, intercession, healing, prophecy etc., then was IHOP’s “Holy Spirit” on vacation when IHOP member Rebecca Candler didn’t feed her baby until it died???
“Starved Baby, Jeremiah Candler, Linked to IHOP Cult”
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/starved-baby-jeremiah-candler-linked-to-ihop-cult/
Killa City: Parents of dead baby were IHOP members
http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/01/killa_city_parents_of_dead_bab.php
This is a classic real-life example of the NOLR’s “Apostolic Covering” if there ever was one!!!
IHOP members Nick and Rebecca Candler were under IHOP’s “Spiritual Covering” with “Apostle” Mike Bickle and sexual deviate “Prophets” Paul Cain and Bob Jones who, for DECADES have spread evil NOLR heresies that have caused $Millions to be systematically extracted from Christians who are mesmerized by the doctrines and practices Grace Fellowship, Metro Fellowship, Friend’s of the Bride (FOTB), Tabernacle of David, Joseph Company (marketplace “apostles”) Int’l House of Prayer (IHOP) and many other NOLR front organizations that includes ties to both Freemasonry and Roman Catholicism. IHOP is a “Third Force” occult group that seeks to spiritually sodomize youth into submission and then, using Music Mysticism and Bridal Mysticism, initiates 10s of 1000s of youth en masse into their Greek Mystery School cult.
Youth are on the heart of Almighty God and judgment is upon this nation because Christians has allowed America’s youth to be “sealed” i.e. wedded to the same “Corporate Christ” or “Many-Membered Manchild” as that of the Mormons whose doctrine also spells out that a Mormon man can evolve into a Christ if he spiritually and physically marries women.
I really wish Christians would do a better job of connecting the historical dots more and not just rely on the Holy Spirit’s promptings and finally bail out of these cults. Do you think that God hold’s Christians accountable for documented historical studies laid down by other Christians in times past??? Are American, Canadian and European libraries so foreign to Christians as research tools that they are relegated to flying by the seat of their pants by attending what appears as legitimate expressions of Christianity??? If we go down as a nation, it will be because Christians did not learn from history and instead became doomed because they repeated the same sins, transgressions, and iniquity of other Christians in times past.
Yes the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth, but cannot God lead a Christian to read the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions and kazillions of other free and readily-available reference material and connected the written descriptions of cult beliefs and practices with cult entities such as IHOP????
What is more cost effective in terms a time and money?
1) Read books about cults and their doctrines and practices and compare with scripture. And I mean scholarly academic sources and not some 3rd grade manual like Bob Larsen’s book on cults!!!
2) Go into these cults and see if your Christian beliefs mesh with “ministries” that appear “Christian” enough and after you give $1000’s and finally disagree with the leaders’ doctrines they set up as “loyalty tests” to get rid of you and get a new set of crash dummies into their satanic fold, then you leave by saying, I should have listened to the promptings of the Holy Spirit” etc.
You chose. I vote for #1 above, but then sadly I’ve spent too many years doing #2 above as well. I finally am off the merry-go-round and am walking straight paths, but I simply cannot do like these leaders wanted me to do which as to “forgive and forget” and let *ANY* other believers fall into their satanic trap. To me, doing so would put me under judgment according to:
Prov 24:11-12
If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
IHOP Compared to Mormon Theosophy
For further research, read about Mormon doctrines and practices and compare to Latter Rain doctrines and practices. They both stem from the same source, but appear different because the founders interpreted the occult doctrines differently to their congregants.
Christians are supposed to define what scripture says about who and what Jesus Christ is and is not when they share Christ. If the Jesus Christ they share with unbelievers is vague, like the techniques advocated by:
1) Bill Hybels and the “Seeker-Friendly” method
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8313005615453613266
2) The post-modern Emergent Church “Ancient-Future” approach
http://apprising.org/2008/03/emergent-church-ancient-future-heresies/
3) Rick Warren’s “Purpose-Driven” method which is really a modified form of the occult methods used by the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR). This is based upon the fact that “Super Apostle” C. Peter Wagner remains Rick Warren’s Fuller Theological mentor for Warren’s June 1993 Fuller dissertation, “New Churches for a New Generation: Church Planting to Reach Baby Boomers; A Case Study: The Saddleback Valley Community Church.” How Fuller faculty could have granted Warren a DDS for this comic book is beyond me!!
4) The Word-of-Faith approach. Jesus would have driven a Bentley and have been more wealthy then Bill Gates, Oprah Windpipe, and Warren Buffet so to be a Christian you need to speak to the elements and cause the spiritual to materialize and by so doing you will validate yourself as a little Christ, etc.
5) The Latter Rain method. This centuries-old approach is to teach and preach the eschatological manifestation of the “Sons of God” literally clothed with supernatural powers and entering into immortality. To the NOLR, Christ is a revelation and becoming a Christian is to receive Christ as a revelation infused/merged/wedded to one’s soul (“Mystical Union” aka “ecstatic Kabbalah”)progressively until there remains no more distinction between Christ and the adept by virtue of the adept’s demonstrated “signs and wonders.” In other words, “No signs and wonders — No salvation.” The members of this deadly mind-control occult movement also believes, like the Jewish Kabbalist, that because they are the “messiah returned” there remains for the believer to corporately act as the “messiah returned” and force the world populace to acquiesce to a “Christ Consciousness” and merge all religions into a “Universal Brotherhood” and thereby return androgynous Adam-Kadmon to his pre-fall state of “God” in a utopian magical Garden. Gnostic yes. Christian never.
In the mean time, we watch Joyner, Wagner and their Moravian circus “restore” walking tatoo parlor and “evangelist” Todd Bentley as the head cheese for the upcoming “California Revival” they have cooked up.
Popcorn and peanuts anyone?
Andrew Strom has been speaking out against IHOP for years, but for the right reasons? Or is it because Andrew Strom never became the big cheese in Kansas City nor did he bring revival to the city.
I like some of Andrews words and teachings but sometimes I feel his emotions get into the way and you feel like saying let go of the past.
Mike Bickle is literally leading the charismatic church to bring in the antichrist. His promotion of looking for “the King” is leading them to look for the false king, as the True King Jesus removes us in the Rapture and does not comes as King until after the seven year tribulation. The false King (antichrist) will be the next one on the scene! Bickle also promotes the ‘new thing’ that is ‘emerging’. THis comes from the occultic “New Beginnings” which has permeated the churches. This agenda to bring in the anti christ promotes ‘taking the mark”, calling on ‘angels’ (demons) to fight ‘evil” (anyone who goes by the Logos alone instead of ‘the spirit), and the push for unity. THe occultics declare that the world must be unified in order for the antichrist to come and the churches today are uniting indeed. Alice Bailey who channeled the new age movement from demons for 30 years, declared that three things had to happen before the false King comes. ANd these three things are now descriptions of the CHurch today ! Unification, Eradication of Doctrine and Militancy. The Unification is all the churches joining whether christian or not. Then the push to eradicate the Logos for the “voice of God” has brought occultism into the church.The militancy comes from this move to ‘fight” anyone who doesnt follow the ‘apostles’ and the ‘new wave of the spirit” Cindy Jacobs push for this ‘new wave’ is promoting the very words from occultic leaders such as Matthew Fox who says that the ‘new wave of the spirit’ will bring all churches together. (Bickle is truly a decieved man because of his lack of total dependency on the written word of God. His cohort Rick Joyner a ‘christian’ fortune teller, is also deluged by demonic messages declaring them ‘revelation. Read the book “The Other Side of the River’ and see how former charismatic Kevin Reeves got his family away from the church he loved for so many years. He began to focus on the written Word of God ONLY and his eyes were open to the demonic activity in the charismatic church disguised as
Present Truth” Alice Bailey also was told by demons, “As more and more demons descend into the minds of men, the church will think its the Holy Spirit” Charismatic churches today also teach that a ‘glorious” church is coming where ‘millions’ will be saved. SCripture teaches that the times will get worse, not better. So this ‘glorious’ church is really the One World CHurch where ‘millions’ will be following the antichrist! I pray that anyone that reads this will realize the Truth. Hebrews 13:9 “Be not carried away with strange doctrines!”
Many who have declared Bickle to be monetarily principled would do well to review his wife’s realty business practice.
Both extract salaries from the business and all company profits are “donated” to charity. Yes you’ve guessed it,the charity IHOP of which they are custodians. Great wheeze, they pay NO TAX but get to spend ALL THE MONEY! Yea they’ve got integrity all right!
OhhowILOVEJESUS
I can’t believe they are charging for what they call “ministry”.
SOZO is extremely dangerous. I used to be involved with this through the healing rooms. We had our own method. I sat in as a team member several times and always experienced visions.
The couple who wrote our program told me that God wanted to take me to a higher level of healing regarding the death of my daughter. Not because I acted like I needed help and not because I asked for it, simply because they claimed they felt the Lord speak that to them. What resulted was extremely bizzare and in the end, nothing good came of it for me. I believe it was one of the demons I had to deal with after coming out of the whole crazy charismanic thing.
SOZO and theophosics are very dangerous. Every one stay away.
RICK JOYNER – MORNINGSTAR MADNESS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMxNwBwJ0XU
MASS DEMONIZATION The wide range of practices currently being promoted within so-called renewal and revival movements are neither Christian nor Biblical.
Strange manifestations occur in both children and adults such as falling to the floor called carpet-time producing “holy laughter, “animal noises (i.e. roar like a lion, cluck like a chicken, bark like a dog, etc). Howling at the moon; crawling on the floor like an animal. Also, bellowing 2warrior or war cries and wielding imaginary, golden swords, doubling-over as if punched in the stomach (referred to as “doing crunches,” in a drunken stupor. The strangest thing is to see a group as the women is pretending to “give birth” rocking and wailing on the hands and knees while the men have hold of their ankles. They are assimilating giving birth to “revival”.
WIZARDS INVADE THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH!
The Spirit of God revealed to John in a vision that in the last days, demon spirits would be released upon the earth which would go forth to deceive the world. (Rev. 16:13-14), AAnd I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
These three spirits that John saw represent lying, deceiving, seducing demon spirits that are going to be released by Satan. (Rev. 16:14). For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The Body of Christ is facing the most horrendous, Satanic and demonic greater confrontation than at any other time in history. It will be a time of intensified spiritual warfare where demons will manifest themselves and will fight in direct confrontation with God=s people. The Lord Jesus told us in (Matt. 10:22), “And ye shall be hated of all men for My name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” And then in (Matt. 6:33), He said, “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness . . .”
SATAN HAS RELEASED AN ARMY OF EVIL SPIRITS
Witchcraft wizards soul snatchers & soul scalpers these mystical Christians want to disconnect you from the Jesus of the Bible and link you to the Awakened Beings they are calling angels who they say are from the divine realm existing in the Third Heaven. They want to take you through occultist wormhole, the sorceries, long sought “Stargate of the gods.” Their witchcraft experiences want to teach you about the powerful new “electrical energies” bathing your spirits with the anointing of the Ascended Masters powers of the New Age.
NEW AGE TRANCE means, SPELL ~ SLEEP ~ DREAM ~ DAZE ~ HYPNOSIS
Yet, these are words being used by famous Christian leadership. These are not Christian Words and certainly not biblical words BUT New Age ~ Pagan. Deception, Dishonesty~ Trickery ~ It may be true that some Christians do not know that they are supporting witchcraft. Many have believed that by ignoring the Devil will make him disappear. However, he’s turned up in Christian Churches around the world in stealth covering of New Age paranormal angels of light. “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works,” (2 Cor. 11:14-15) KJV The biggest problem in the Western Church is that they do not take the powers of witchcraft seriously. They generally believe that it is not real or just fantasy and make belief. Others believe that if witches and wizards were real with demonic powers, it could not have any effect upon them because they are Christians. Actually, they are right. Witchcraft can only have power over a Christian only if he or she has open doors. These are doors of sin in their lives or doorways of stepping onto Satan=s territory. Witchcraft is Satan=s territory. Fraud~ Con ~ Cheating ~ Pretext ~ Pretext Satan is using deception. The above are some words for deception. It concerns soul stealing and soul scalping of humans by Satan and his fallen angels.
Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley response to their critics is that they are being used by the enemy to attack their unbiblical relationship with New Age demons such as the Kundalini spirit – “With all of the courage, resolve, strength, and devotion that we have as spiritual warriors, we must also grow in our skills as gentle healers, humbling ourselves to serve in this way even those who are used by the enemy to attack us.”
Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley and John Arnott call Christians who expose them “enemies: who need to be saved – We must always keep in mind that our victory is salvation and the greatest victory of all is the salvation of our enemies. However, even if our enemies do not turn to the Lord and continue to hate us, we must love our enemies, and while resisting their error, we must be open to serve them in any way that we have the opportunity without compromising our message and convictions.
But mass demonization, wizards in the Christian Church and embracing of evil spirits, has never been part of the gospel that Jesus preached! Apostle Paul stated to Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley and others in the Third Wave – O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth (Galatians 3:1)
The Kundalini Spirit with Stacey Campbell
http://www.blinkx.com/video/todd-bentley-apostolic-and-prophetic-commissioning-3-4/Aaw4i_tak8ltdRZ2SAka7w
Todd Bentley John Arnott False Words, Prophecy and Prayers and Unholy Fire http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aWpTvcM74U
References:
New Age Spirituality Through Spiritual Formation! http://www.scribd.com/doc/495757/Apostles-Prophets-and-the-Coming-NEW-AGE
Enlightened masters http://www.scribd.com/doc/16239991/Enlightened-Masters
Soul-Scalping Christians http://www.scribd.com/doc/16163599/Soul-Scalping-Christians
You Rock AML. You are truly a prophetic watch-wo-man.
truly, this enrages me….
i speak from experience of having been at one of the camps offered at IHOP and with many sermons from Mike Bickle.
I tell you,
GOD CAN USE ANYONE. And if it weren’t for IHOP, then I would not be saved today. If it weren’t for MIke having started IHOP, then perhaps I’d still be down the same road.
I cannot believe that many of you cannot even see the bigger picture. God used MAGIs to come find Jesus when he was born. They used the STARS to find Jesus, which is technically “not a Christian thing” to be telling stuff from the stars.
Sure some of Mike’s theology is weird but Protestants argue within their own denominations ALL the time and Protestants argue with Catholics ALL the time and Catholics argue within their own theology and practices ALL the time.
Some argue that Mike is being “too catholic”. Really? How bad is that? Considering HALF of the Protestant’s Christian history is also VERY MUCH Catholic history. If Catholics were completely wrong, then this “Christian” Church shouldn’t even exist today. As a Catholic myself, Mike Bickle’s openness to even Catholics shows me how denomination differences are NOT what God is about. God can use ANYONE and is not LIMITED by anything.
The fact is, Mike is affecting more youths and HELPING THEM get closer to OUR GOD than any of you (mike-haters) probably ever will. Sure it’s not about who helps the most out but you’re “condemning” his group as a “cult” because it’s not “Christian” enough when many of you are sitting at your computers hoping your own kid will just be “saved” out of the blue. What are you doing for your child so that they can also experience a conversion in their life to be truly CONVICTED that God exists. What are you doing? Mike is trying to help YOUTH with their quest to believe in a higher being. What’s wrong with that? It’s a cult? So if a “cult” brought me closer to God, does that mean that the God I believe in now is a “cult-God?”
DO SOMETHING and stop bringing other Christians down. IT”S UNDENIABLE that MIKE BICKLE has helped changed the lives of many teenagers and at-risk youth. I WITNESSED IT and those friends of mine are STILL CHANGED, including me.
I never once thought, “Oh Mike Bickle must be from the Devil” because of some incoherency in his theology. NO, his IHOP and ATC program helped me change in an ENCOURAGING environment and those little disputable parts YOU MIKE-BICKLE-HATERS don’t like… are insignificant to the life-changing experience I got out of IHOP.
REFLECT on the big picture and WHETHER OR NOT YOU are really helping the salvation of others by slandering Mike’s movement.
http://www.kvministries.com/media/index.php?type=2&id=106&foreign_id=106&media_id=95
This touches on the subject of Todd Bentley….. which in some way relates to Mike Bickle, and our tendancies..
Daniel,
I could not even watch the entire thing. Kris was so lost that it hurt to see him talking.
Dear Daniel:
Sorry that you are “enraged” at the criticisms of Mike Bickle’s IHOP.
My personal problem with Bickle is his teaching and the problem of his cover up of the abominations of men that God has told Mike are “false prophets” from Hell, and Mike has not had the courage to protect his family, friends or flock from these men. This is despite Jesus’ warning.
The number one issue with Bickle for me is that there is no such thing as a need for 24/7 prayer as a “formula” or a continued “practice” UNLESS GOD SPECIFICALLY TELLS A PERSON TO DO THIS FOR A SEASON OF TIME.
We do not “control” God through our prayers.
We do not “create” new things with our prayers.
Our prayers are only effective insomuch as they are in line with God’s WILL.
But because Bickle believes much of the phony stand of C Peter Wagner on false strategic spiritual warfare == Bickle preaches a phony round the clock IHOP culty prayer idea.
Again, Daniel, there is a TIME AND A SEASON for intercession.
But the overriding point of spiritual warfare is EVANGELISM.
How come the “Office of the Evangelist” and the ‘Office of the Teacher” and the “Office of the Pastor” are not held in more importance with the NAR IHOP cults?
You need to investigate and do your homework on IHOP Daniel.
You need to understand what Wimber found out too late about Bob Jones and Paul Cain.
You need to make a connection between Wagner/Hamon/Joyner/Branham/Cain/Bentley with Mike Bickle.
Then you need to pick up your Cross, deny yourself and FOLLOW HIM.
Bless you in the meantime and don’t be enraged, just do your homework and “study to show yourself approved” so you can be a better apologist for the Lord and His Word.
Being an apologist for Christ is our duty as Christians. So get back to us when you have done the footwork on Bickle’s underlying teachings and beliefs and associations with Jones/Cain especially.
daniel,
You need to comes to terms with the historical facts that you are in a deadly mind-control cult whose leaders are major components in promoting the well-documented false doctrines of the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR). The NOLR was started as a result of a small group of twenty-somethings in Canada that embraced several 17th century Christian Kabbalah doctrines from a Freemason-turned-evangelist named Charles Sydney Price. Mike Bickle and Co. have been committing illegal fraud for well over 20-years by posing their “ministry” as a legitimate expression of Christianity.
YWAM and the NOLR
YWAM leaders have also embraced the theosophical infection of NOLR doctrines and practices since 2000 (9-years). Here is one of many eyewitness testimonies from someone who, like you, has been associated with YWAM for years, but saw a progression by its leaders into the same old and well-documented evil heresies that Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Bob Weiner, Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, Bill Hamon, Dutch Sheets and countless others embrace each and every day:
*********************************************
YWAM Testimony
by I., in an email of 1/31/02 to DITC
Dear Sandy,
Firstly, let me introduce myself. I. … converted in 1968, introduced to YWAM that year, and joined them in 1971 to 1974.
I cut my teeth on “moral government” and just like Greg Robertson, I thought it had the answers. … WE know all the founders of YWAM, and were close at hand at the many shipwrecks along the way. It is only god’s grace that has kept us together and He alone has the glory for leading us out of the deception. It took 20 years!
In the 80’s I wrote a book, not published, attempting to show that the New Age movement was invading the church in force, and that its links were as far back as Babylon. It was during this time that the writings of Francis Schaeffer became very real to us. We devoured everything he wrote. In particular, his high view of Scripture, and his statement that the bottom line is the view of biblical authority, were the issues that turned on the lights for us.
To our dismay and concern, few around us cold see it! We felt that open argument was NOT the way at that time, but rather gentle discussion and pointing people to the facts. We have maintained this stance until yesterday.
I read your article re Joy Dawson and was disappointed, not with you for writing it, you were reporting the facts. No, I was disappointed with Joy Dawson. Someone whom I had deeply respected, someone who knew me personally, and who could then go on to be so totally deluded…. it beggars belief. For me personally the cycle of deception which began with moral government was somehow completed with her endorsement of Hinn. the man is a ludicrous, though thoroughly dangerous, caricature of true ministry.
I went public yesterday, and emailed my entire Christian friends network, expressing my thoughts as above. I am now waiting for the explosions! The first response was from an Ex ywam leader, now living in Colorado Springs, who also expressed his disappointment with Dawson, and his growing concern, and even real apprehension at the blindness of the “church”. So maybe there are 7000 left!
I have appreciated your site, and your colleagues. I am now simply pointing people in the direction of these sites, so they may do their own research, and come to the glaringly obvious conclusions – if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and lays duck eggs, then it is a duck, and not an eagle.
maranatha,
I.
I just stumbled upon your website and have a few things to say:
To begin with I did a DTS with YWAM in New Zealand in 2000. Needless to say I witnessed some outrageous things and experienced first-hand some of the very sand-founded practices you have revealed on your website. Just a few of these experiences include: a “prophet” (Peter Kumar) manifesting oil on the palms of a student, very contrived situations with students “receiving” the gift of tongues and of course the all-too-famous incidents of students being slain in the spirit. Also, in Fiji, an Indian pastor shook my face and loudly proclaimed that “if you do not shiadadadada, then you have not been fiiiilllledd with the holy ghost, shiadadadada”. Although an infant in regards to such outlandish behaviour, I yet could see through most of it. Nevertheless, I did not see through it all. Thus, if you have the time I would like to know what it is that is precisely wrong with prayer walking or advocating indigenous cultures (the quoted scripture did, admittedly, seem rather weak, though i am no scholar) as well as some of the other seemingly more innocent and well-intentioned practices.
I am fully aware that YWAM has gotten up to their necks in rotten theology. I was aware of this when I first worked with them. I am now more aware of this fact than ever. However, I have lately been considering working with them again with sincere hopes that I might be able to shed the smallest bit of light perhaps not onto the hearts of leaders but rather of the vulnerable students (of which there were many of us on my DTS). I highly wonder whether to act as the antithesis of their spirit-of-the-age philosophies might not aid in clearing up some confusion for some students. That’s all. I would undoubtedly value a response. Thanks much.
A.D.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/ywamstory.html
**************************************************
You see daniel, you really don’t have a choice here. You need to flee just as fast as your feet can lead you out the door, or stay and have your conscience seered and wind up in the Lake of Fire. Contrary to the Calvinists, I believe you can make the right choice based upon the volumes of historical documentation readily available to you and if you choose wrongly, you will suffer for your own decisions.
You have been duly warned.
Daniel
My hat is off to you. You truly have the wisdom of God. I have tried to argue with Jesus bashers before on these blogs. It is impossible. On thing I can tell you for sure is that Satan hates IHOP more than any of these bashers. They are one of the few ministries I am aware of that are praying according to Gods will. I watch the prayer room webstream daily. Satan is not concerned about our arguments about doctrine( He laughs) He is not concerned about us praying for the lost or revival. He hates it when we cry out for the return of our Savior to this planet. If you read your bible you know that this is the one thing that he dreads the most. he will thrown into prison on that day. So it is no wonder that so many people are against people who give their lives to pray for His return. I have served in the Kingdom long enough to know that we will never turn this planet into a Christian utopia and nothing in the Bible suggests that we will. I for one am lovesick and eagerly awaiting for the one who can make all things right. So hang in there and dont get caught up with those who are short sighted.
Troy
With all due respect Troy,
In the last days many will say Lord did we not cast out demons in your name and heal the sick? and He said depart from me you workrer of iniquity I knew you not.
Did not the sons of Sceva provoke a demon in the book of Acts? The results were bad because they did not know Jesus.
The leadership at IHOP is corupt, yes they are probably congregants who get saved, But when people like Bently fall the suck down those who belive in Bently too and so it will be when other big mega movements are exposed. I wonder if this goes with the great falling away in the last days?
Dear Toy/Dan
re
Daniel
My hat is off to you. You truly have the wisdom of God. I have tried to argue with Jesus bashers before on these blogs. It is impossible. On thing I can tell you for sure is that Satan hates IHOP more than any of these bashers. They are one of the few ministries I am aware of that are praying according to Gods will. I watch the prayer room webstream daily. Satan is not concerned about our arguments about doctrine( He laughs) He is not concerned about us praying for the lost or revival. He hates it when we cry out for the return of our Savior to this planet.”
ooh, so wrong on so many levels
“Satan is not concerned about our arguments about doctrine( He laughs” uh, the “OneThing” satan cares about is keeping humans from the Word. And sound doctrine – not praying like some catholic monks who did the 24/7 crap for centuries.
And if you “know” what he laughs about – he laughs at introspective mysticism aka IHOP.
And fyi? I spent time with Mike at TACF, was his “right hand man”. So I know what I am talking about – as well as knowing Stacey/Wes Campbell/Pat King/David Ruis, for YEARS … met Wimber/Arnotts etc .
They were sincere, but sincerely ALL PLAYED by your laughing satan.
Wes’ “Welcoming a Visitation of the Holy Spirit” welcomed a spirit all right. That was some years before TACF aka TAVF.
Mike was played by a lieing spirit who used men and he was set up brilliantly.
Mike too was sincere but did not TEST THE SPIRITS:
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
John knew Jesus personally – so I will take his advice.
And not all the NAR authorities’.
Don’t be a sucker.
Read the Bible people, whereever God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit were CRAZY stuff was happening. the church has become to scared and has allowed other religions and “real” cults to steal the amazing glory of God. the church has become to closeminded, and forgotten that God can do ANYTHING. even the crazy, whacked out, weird stuff, that we as mere humans cant wrap our mind around so we push them off as being demonic, when it was the devils purpose to steal all of those things from God in the first place. the church shouldne be fighting against itself, but fighting together to take back the glories that satan has stolen, and making them rightfully God’s again.
The idea of a set of rules to identify a cult is just so contrived, Most churchs would fall into many of these lists if it wasn’t for the fact that they are “established” and respectable. Each case must be judged on its own merits. The IHOP is not a cult, infact the whole concept of what a makes a cult is contrived.
New Order of the Latter Rain, Dominionists and FEMA Clergy
Keywords:
Obama Youth Brigades
Nazi Youth Brigades
Clergy Crisis Response Teams
Jesus Camp
Soul Indoctrination
Rosicrucian/Mormon Cosmology
Christian Kabbalah
New Apostolic Reformation
Many-Membered Manchild
Corporate Christ
National Socialism vs Dominionism/Reconstruction
False Spiritual Revival vs False Political Awakening
Hindu Chakras
Seed-Faith and “Sowing into the ministry”
The “Anointing”
With the clear agenda of World Dominion and World Conquest as the political outworking of the occult heresies of the NAR/ICA and WOF movement, I would not be at all surprised if many of their leaders have already taken the Federal oaths to become part of the FEMA Clergy Crisis Response Teams that are now in place to disarm America for the next ‘crisis’ that the Feds are cooking up. After all, if Bickle, IHOP, MorningStar, Christian Int’l, Believer’s Voice of Victory, TACF, Brownsville, Lakeland, NAR/ICA, USAR, etc. are recruiting 10s of 1000s of youth for their Many-membered anti-Christ, then it would stand to reason that those whom they have already recruited will be funneled into Obama’s Nazi Youth Brigades to “Take Dominion” like Bob Weiner likes to shove down his follower’s throats.
References:
Is Your Pastor One of the “Cleared Clergy”?
http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Opinion/051854-2009-06-15-is-your-pastor-one-of-the-cleared-clergy.htm
“Clergy to be used to quell dissent: Program trains leaders to convince people to obey emergency orders”
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57219
United States Alliance for Revival (Dutch Sheets + NAR/ICA)
http://www.wix.com/reformationandawakening/usa4r/
Alex Jones – The Obama youth brigades 1of3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MysDjOIFwmA
The Wave – 1981 Movie [1 of 5]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xap2DI8ywLo&feature=related
NOLR/NAR/ICA Leader Becky Fisher (MorningStar Ministries associate) training youth with an assassination mentality to kill all Christians who refuse to submit to Wagner’s Int’l Coalition of Apostles (ICA, Sheets, Charisma/Maranatha “Apostle” Lee Grady, Rice Broocks, C. Peter Wagner, Mormons, Freemasons and the rest of the new ubermensch “Corporate Christ). The Jesus Camp expose’ is one of the premier examples of how 10s of 1000s of Latter Rain and Mormon youth will merge with Obama’s Youth Brigade.
Jesus Camp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fq4wZ_lQjc&feature=related
Jesus Camp 2of9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLLD6jgTL8&feature=related
[note the youth in IHOP and MorningStar exhibit the very same Hindu Chakra body twitching and demonic takeover prior to Christian Kabbalist indoctrination.]
Obama Youth Brigade March in Formation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtGr1JFCnE&feature=related
“Apostle” and CNP member Bob Weiner (Maranatha) cooking up his “Boston Revival”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xp26nyeJo8
[Weiner and Co. are major components of Wagner’s NAR and their reincarnated “apostles.”
Weiner using WOF techniques to extract megabucks from duped followers:
Mission Sunday with Bob Weiner
Hey I just joined IHOP a few months back, and I have to say that it has been challenging. I have been growing. I have a strong background in the word and evangelism, yet there really is a God breathed movement here that is absolutely scriptural. I have been in several large ministries which all have flaws …we are all part of “The church” IHOP prays non-stop and makes a difference. Many ministries long for intimacy and something more than making the numbers and altar calls with the same old repeat offenders. Young people long for an ACTS II type of church but usually fall off the charts when they only get church program and politic. Mike Bickle would be about the lamest cult leader ever ..He would not qualify due to his lack of power grabbing..He does not have title(though he is esteemed and position) He backs up everything with scripture thouroghly or will state as opinion. He lives meagerly. And does not mingle(he stays out of trouble) He is in it for the long haul as he is establishing the vision of the tabernacle of David(house of prayer) I was reading his teachings and his expoundings on them which was a lot of scripture and it, and I cannot challenge or refute it scripturally. I am a hard core literal person with no tolerance for mystic or conference type of sensationalism. The teaching here are very inductive in their study and they are actually practical in their application for the current events and future.
Lawrence
I am also personally acquainted with some of the leadership of IHOP. They readily admit to past errors and are humble enough to grow from the mistakes they have made. Christianity is a dangerous road and the more you seek to get close to Him the more dangerous it becomes. I have forged new ground in my own community and have many arrows in my back for my efforts. I will continue to live on the edge because the fruit is worth it. You never answered the main point. Satan is terrified by us praying for the return of the Lord. IHOP may not appeal to everyone and it is not safe, but it is good. My lot is cast with anyone who has the guts to continue to cry out to Jesus for His return despite all of the critics. If you hate IHOP you have a lot of company because Satan hates it to. His demise is wrapped up in the success of ministries like them. John talked about testing the spirits and false prophets. Almost always in reference to Antichrist and eschatology. Go figure. IHOP certainly is not denying that Jesus came and is coming in the flesh and they are not denying His return. So I for one tremble in fear before I cast a stone at a fellow brother in the Lord.
Troy
Lawrence
“Satan is not concerned about our arguments about doctrine( He laughs” uh, the “OneThing” satan cares about is keeping humans from the Word. And sound doctrine – not praying like some catholic monks who did the 24/7 crap for centuries.
Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:15-17 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else. Rejoice always; PRAY WITHOUT CEASING;
When you pray without ceasing you’re giving thanks to God every chance you get, basically 24/7 right? To cease, means to stop. So we should never stop praying. So yes satan hates when we pray to the God of the Universe continually because GOD created us for COMMUNION with Him, nothing else. Satan is very prideful (how did he fall?), so he wants all the praise. When we give GOD all the praise satan gets jealous because he thinks he’s better than God. So a person praying 24/7, living in the presence of God, is going to have alot more trials and tribulations because satan will do anything to mess your walk up with God. Notice that satan doesn’t mess with people that aren’t a threat to him. Satan loves church goin’ folks that don’t live the Word of God. He hates those who DO the Word, not just hearers. He hates and is threatened by the ones who know they have more AUTHORITY than him by the BLOOD of the Lamb.
Lawrence my sincere brother understand this saying:
You are God’s son, (Romans
You are mans servant,
You are the devil’s MASTER.
Jesus said IT IS FINISHED. He didn’t say IT WILL BE FINISHED. Satan has no control over a christian because he who is in me is greater than he who is in the world. And because the blood of christ the cleanses us from sin is much much more powerful than a defeated serpent who’s head has been crushed.
One last thing. Did you know EVERY christian has the FULLNESS of GOD? You can’t pray to have more of God, do works to have more of God, Ask God to have more of Him. You can’t do a single thing to have the fullness of God, because the fullness of God is in Christ and Christ abides in us. So basically when a Christian says to God “Lord I want MORE of you” Its unscriptural in the NEW TESTAMENT, because we now have the HOLY SPIRIT ABIDING in us. David in the Old Testament said “Fill My cup Lord” and continually asked to be filled, but that was because Christ was not yet glorified and the Holy Spirit only fell on certain people. So EVERY Christian whether Baptist, Pentecostal/Charismatic, Presbyterian, etc… has the FULLNESS of God.
Colossians 2:9-10 For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body, and YOU are COMPLETE through your union with CHRIST. He is the Lord over every ruler and authority in the universe.
So we are completely full of God, we dont need to ask for more of Him. We can ask to be like Him or formed into the image of Him, but we can’t ask “Oh God fill me to completion” because we are COMPLETELY full of Him all the time.
I love the deep things of God that Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would reveal to His followers.
Amen.
We have studied Hermeneutics and Exegesis so that we can really understand the Bible. Whenever Mike Bickle teaches, he ALWAYS tell us to research for ourselves and to not just take His word–because He could be wrong.
Pouroutmylove… have you done this? I fear not….
Anyone can twist scripture. In Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, C. Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson, etc- we have men who claim that God has called them to raise up an army of apostles and prophets that are greater than those in Biblical times. They further proclaim an army that will do greater things than what Jesus himself did based on John 14:12. To work out their interpretation of John 14:12 to its logical conclusion, they would have to believe that we can top Christ’s resurrection. THe only way for them to believe that is by holding to the Manifest Sons of God teaching as originally taught by George Warnock and further expounded by the occultist William Branham. Branham and Warnock taught that rather than Christ returning physically- there would be a remnant of believers that walked so much in the power of God that they would never taste physical death and that this remnant of believers would be the fulfillment of Christ’s second coming. Branham’s followers were so duped into believing this that when he died in 1965- they waited by his grave the following Easter fully expecting him to rise from the dead in the same way that Christ did. Now the ministries of IHOP, Morningstar, etc want to reinvent the ministry of William Branham. Todd Bentley claims his mantle and anointing as well as the exact same angel that guided Branham’s ministry. In 2008, Morningstar held a conference honoring the fathers of the healing revival of the 1940’s which included dangerous heretics like William Branham as well as men like Jack Coe who was the first to say that if people were not healed when he prayed for them then it was because they did not have enough faith, and A.A. Allen who was arrested for drunk driving in 1955 and died of acute alcoholism in the liver in 1972.
Though all these men are considered by many of their followers to be prophets greater than those that existed in Biblical times, they have justified their failure to meet the Biblical standard of 100% accuracy by saying that it would be far too great an expectation for anyone to live up to today. Yeah that makes sense, these prophets are greater than those of Bliblical times but can not live up to the standard of 100 percent accuracy that prophets in Biblical times had to live up to?
I could go on and on citing not only the errors but the downright absurdity of the teachings of these men, but to write all of it would probably cause the entire internet to crash as I would have endless information on this topic. Case in point is simple be wary of IHOP and the ministries associated therein.
Daniel,
You said Satan hates IHOP. You’re very wrong. Satan LOVES IHOP working on his behalf.
The ihop leaders are pushing Contemplative Prayer which IS, (Mr. Boxnix, you listening?) which IS synonymous with TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION and since TM has its roots in Hinduism and Buddhism, it is OCCULT. And it is not in the bible anywhere. When God said ‘Be still and know I am God’, he wasn’t even remotely saying, “Repeat a word over and over (20 minutes if need be) until your mind is totally blank – void of any thoughts. Then we will ‘commune’…”
That’s part of the amazing deception that has managed to FOOL so many believers into thinking they’re really “doing” something for God when they “do” this.
Unscriptural, unholy, unbelievably occult. Sometimes you don’t get any WOW feeling when you’re exercising your faith. Guess that’s where we get, “we walk by faith and not by sight…”
SP
Father God,
Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Get your facts straight: A cult is, by definition, an organization founded on a new religion where members essentially revolve their lives around a person and his/her ideas, not on the actual deity.
IHOP does not do that. I did an internship at one of the many IHOPs in the U.S., and I paid only $1000 for the classes. ANd that’s what you pay for: books, classes, trips, food, etc. You don’t pay to pray.
IHOP is not a cult; it is a sect. A sect is a branch of organized religion. And since members of IHOP practice Christianity, they cannot possibly be a cult.
So get your facts straight.
nharrison,
There is no formal definition of a cult, but I (and many others) would not agree with yours. There are numerous organisations which could be considered cults that are not based on new religious ideas or centred on a person. Some cult researchers will also say that there are Christian cults.
A better definition of cult, IMO, is “an organisation that uses psychological pressure to recruit or retain members”.
I’m not an expert on IHOP, but I know that some people would say that my definition of cult applies to them.
I think it is ridicoulous to say that lakeland was not of God just because one person sinned blows my mind how people want to cause division in all these things personally everyone here could be found to be have some wrong doctrine. The whole reason for that revival is to get people not to realize it isnt about one man but the body Funny thing is that the ministries that you people are blasting have actually turned the other cheek. makes you wonder who the mature ones in Christ are all I see is a bunch of people grieving the Holy Spirit because you want to show how right you are please dont tell other people you are christians because then you will have to tell them you shoot your wounded. The bottom line is are there examples of what they d in the bible by Godly people I am wasting my time you people wont be happy till you are right.
I cannot say if IHOP is a cult or not. I know I do not like IHOP but that is because I was asked to leave the church for wanting to stand and worship instead of sit. I’m not kidding. I told the people there who tell you to have a seat that I’d prefer to stand. Three people later and they are asking me to leave. I was not causing any trouble or making any noise. I just simply wanted to stand because I spend most of the day on my bottom anyway. I found the staff there to be unprofessional and rude and that alone will be the reason I will never go back there and I was there in the very beginning. I attend there once before they became larger than life and back when they first started there were no tv cameras and no one in there would have asked you to do anything but praise God.
Who cares if you sit or stand…or was it more than that?
I was a part of Kansas City Fellowship until 1990. I never thought this movement would grow arms and legs as it has and turn into the monster that it is. We were told, early on when Bob Jones first was on the seen, that the prophetic gifting was only about 66% accurate (or so) and that only the prophets could judge the prophets. Had it not been for this gross setting aside of scripture, it never would have lived to see another day. Sadly, people believe this standard of men above the word of God. The excesses have reached a height I never conceived of. God have mercy on these confused souls.
Prayer vigils, Miracles, Visions, Prophets, Revivals or any other Spiritual gift or Spiritual movement should never supersede the Bible as the Supreme & Undisputed Final Authority. Ministries that make a mass movement out of one Bible verse to the detriment of the glory of God as seen in the light of Jesus Christ should be suspect.
Various teachings (like the Faith movement & now the sowing (money into a certain ministry) to reap a big blessing are doctrines that like termites are destroying the very foundation of the Church. In Romans Paul said no other no other foundation can be laid other than what has already been laid. You can tell when a movement is fake because Christ is decreased and demoted and men (and women) are promoted and exalted. The movement or false doctrine becomes bigger than our Lord & Savior Jesus.
If any movement does not promote Christ above and far beyond anything else, then it should be quickly dismissed. Various TV Evangelist(not all but enough to be concerned), have some kind of gimmick or additional doctrine that appeals to sending in money for a promise of a return blessing, healing, etc. They are either selling a prayer shawl, promoting sowing into their Ministry with a promise of reaping some monetary gain or causing people to take their focus away from Christ onto them and their Ministry. Paul Cain, Todd Bentley flaunted all kinds of what many called Spiritual gifts. Didn’t apostle Paul tell the Corinthians they were not lacking in any Spiritual gift yet they were still carnal and exalting mere men when some were confessing to be followers of Apollos, Cephas (Peter) or Paul. This did not please Paul one bit. He had to remind them that only Christ died for them and is the one who gives the increase. Any doctrine or movement that becomes bigger than Jesus and his atoning work on the Cross should cause a mental red flag alert!
Whether we name this ungodly operation a sect or cult is somewhat irrelevant. Its like arguing over cyanide and arsenic. Both KILL you so why would you expose yourself to them.
IHOP is the bastard child of he now debunked and evil Kansas Ciy Prophets alliance which spawned the twisted and deviant line of sexual predator Bob Jones, homosexual acholic Paul Cain, convicted child abuser,serial adulterer
Todd Bentley. Mike Bickle led a team of false prophets as KCP prophesying in 1990 that the UK would experience great revival. Not only does history show this to be false, but affirms the very opposite to be true. The UK has slid further into moral and spiritual decline ever since.
From Kansas City to the religious fiasco in Toronto,to the failed revival at Brownsville resulting in a major church split and public financial scandal, and on to the infamous
heresy and abuse of Lakeland.
The same odious characters at the core attracting like-minded charletons including
the Strader bothers,Daniel imprisoned until 2036 for defrauding elderly christians out of $3million and Stephen who was thought by the judge to be just as guilty.
After Bentley’s exposure in the USA on ABC Nightline he was swiftly removed from ministry to prevent further scrutiny. Not only was he unable to provide evidence of a single healing, many who were pronounced healed have since died. Furthermore the Arnold Palmer Hospital has stated that claims of resurrections were bogus.
A thread of carnality and heresy runs through the veins of this movement whose very DNA was present in the disgraced William Branham. It would seem that many christians have still to learn that our privilidge of calling is fulfilled in the PURSUIT OF GOD, not experiences. The twisted
“charisma” of these false teachers/prophets bears no resemblence to the biblical practice of charismata or charismatic gifting as spoken of by Paul in 1Cor 14.
I am a former Jehovah’s Witness who got born again and was filled with the Holy Spirit. I recently visited IHOP and spent sometime there in prayer. I have read everyone’s comments and honestly I have to say something similar to what Pilate said. I find nothing wrong with Mike Bickle or his ministry. The Holy Spirit inside of me bears witness that he is a humble man and that this ministry is much needed on the earth today. His books have help me draw closer to Jesus. Mike, please continue to share your passion and love for Jesus.
I was an intern and it was cheap just for the living expenses. I spent 1900 for three months. And that included all housing, utilities, transportation, and food. Not to mention we had several classes a week. It’s stupid to think we were paying them to let us pray…be real.
Dear Maria and Trisha:
Maria: You need to remember that it is by the Word that we judge, not a feeling. Bickle and his friends are very sincere, I do agree. But Bickle was told by the Lord that he would be hounded by a major False Prophet at iHOP. Bickle lacked the courage of the spirit when the Spirit indicated this false prophet was Bob Jones. Do your homework on the UNDERLYING false doctrines of IHOP, not the apparent “sincerity” of the leaders. You will be surprised and then, scared for the souls of the people under them. Study to show yourself approved.
Trisha: If you were responding to my concern for someone I know who blew thousands of bucks to learn… whatever… at IHOP… my concern for this person was that IHOP is not an accredited university or college and he was wasting his time and money listening to these lunatics of the NAR there.
IHOP is founded on a false principle of 24/7 prayer.
God may want you, or me, or a church, or a group, AT TIMES to pray 24/7, but prayer without matching evangelism is DEAD the same as faith without works is dead. There is a time and season for everything but God does not honor “prayer formulas” of men as in 24/7 prayer. This is false aceticism.
Bickle and friends need to teach apologetics, how to evangelize, and proper biblical discernment, especially how one discerns false prophets and false prophecy.
Since Bickle disobeyed God regarding the Lord’s admonishment of him with Bob Jones, Bickle is in disobedience… i.e. rebellion… i.e. witchcraft.
It is also witchcraft to be thinking any one person can make a spiritual “declaration” in the “spiritual realm” that holds any weight. This is some phony Old Testament misappropriation. None of the Apostles did this This idea is witchcraft, not Christianity, it is praying imprecations.
None of the disciples ‘broke curses off riverways” or “made declarations over the land” etc. Jesus became the Curse for us, once and for all.
Either we are dead to the old man of sin, or we are NOT.
Guilt inflicting unwary sheep at IHOP that they need to keep “breaking generational curses” off themselves is teaching them 1. that their are curses still on them and 2. that they should look back “once their hand is to the plow”..
Basically, the underlying lies of IHOP false doctrine is teaching people ways to go to eternal Hell. He who looks back once his hand is to the plow, is not fit for the kingdom of heaven. He has made us FREE indeed, free do pick up our Cross dailiy and FOLLOW HIM. That’s all we need to do. It’s simple, it is childlike faith. IHOP extras appeal to the self righteous and secretly guilty.
Sorry Maria but whoever is inside you “bearing witness” it is not the Holy Spirit. Bickle (referring to KCP prophecies) is on record as saying “we don’t believe everything that’s said. We’ve been given ten thousand prophecies and I believe there is only a small number that I’ve really cherished in my heart AS FROM THE LORD”. What!
No wonder this “prophet” couldn’t even discern the immorality and alcholism of his partners in deception Paul Cain/Bob Jones whilst affirming their “ministries” over a number of years. Every minister of God should be “above reproach” which clearly these men are not and what is lost cannot be recovered and they are thereby disqualified from future ministry.
BB, AML,
I gotta tell ya, you guys made my night. My IHOP promoting adult kid hasn’t wanted to talk to this parent for going on 2 years. Why? I had the audacity to state I believed IHOP might be a cult. Then the “older and wiser council” had advised to cut mom off – for one year “at least”. Well 1’s passed, coming up on 2 in another month. BB and AML, may God bless you both BIG TIME
Thanks to Mike Bickle for nodda. Mr. Bickle, you can say from the pulpit, “Don’t take my word for it! Check your bibles! Make sure what I’m telling you is in there!” But when one of your IHOP people did that (about 2+ years ago) you kicked him out. He had the audacity to question your teachings and you fired him.
What lovely fruit your “ministry” puts forth. By all means, why not Contemplate that? Remember Mike, there’s a stronger judgement for teachers – and false ones? Oh yeah.
SP
Maybe your IHOP promoting adult kid is trying to deal with growing up with an overbearing mother. If he needs a few years so be it. I’ve read your posts on other sites and the bottom line is that you seem obsessive and controlling. Maybe your son is trying to learn how to fly?! Give him a few years and maybe even encourage him in pursuing something that HE likes!
To say that IHOP is keeping your son from you is absurd, really. Stop being the mom who blames every issue in her sons life on the neighbors kid.
Send your kid a card and tell him that you love him, miss him and are willing to take a look at your own heart (even if it means facing the ugly) in order to begin having a relationship with him again. Obviously he is hurt and obviously you are a part of it. Are you willing to walk in humility and face the facts? Are you willing to stop blaming other things? It is so clear that you have a deep love for your son- I pray that the love you have for him and the desire to look him in the eye will propel you to the school of humility and self examination. God Bless.
I turned 17 recently, I’m not a Bible scholar or an avid theologian.
That being said, God’s moves through me freely at IHop, everything that I do or hear there I feel like glorifies God, and honestly puts him on my heart.
Some of the stuff I read made me sick though, you guys are Idolizing Mike Bickle for one, just because he helped start something doesn’t make him Mr G. (lol)
O and I saw something about God dictating when we pray?!
Last time I checked God listens to his kids 24/7 and praying to him is doing what Dad wants us to, talking to him. Whoever thinks otherwise (in my open opinion) isn’t very understanding of his love for us.
If any of you here could stomach reading that, maybe it’ll move on your heart to stop being so slanderous to a church with lots of people who would give their all for there father in heaven
Here are two quotes. The first one is from Bob Jones who provided ‘foundational revelation’ — supposedly from GOD — to Kansas City Fellowship (now IHOP) according to Mike Bickle. The second is from Bickle’s book Growing in the Prophetic.
“They themselves will be that generation that’s raised up to death itself underneath their feet…a Church that has reached the full maturity of the god-man!…This generation of young people that are coming are going to see the beginning of the worldwide new order…It is going to change the expression of Christianity in a generation.” (Bob Jones; Kansas City Fellowship Interview tape with Mike Bickle, 1988 as quoted by Jewel van der Merwe {Grewe})
“The Lord said simply, ‘I will change the understanding and expression of Christianity in the earth in one generation.’” (Mike Bickle; Growing in the Prophetic)
The first quote is obviously part of the heretical Manifest Sons of God doctrine of the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) movement. The second one is more generally part of the NOLR.
Neither one of these individuals have publically recanted these statements. This my dear IHOP supporters is the basis from which IHOP is based. If you are not familiar with this heresy it would behoove you to search the internet (and this site) for there is plenty of info out there.
Interestingly, these statements — actually false prophecies — above correlate with the following from theosophist/occultist Alice A. Bailey. Her books provide the blueprints to the New Age Movement/New Spirituality which intends to bring about the Antichrist. These books are a product of ‘automatic writing’ having been channeled to her by the ‘Tibetan Master DK’ from the 1920s thru ’50s:
Christianity will not be superseded. It will be transcended, its work of preparation being triumphantly accomplished, and Christ will again give us the next revelation of divinity. [Note 'Christ' here is actually Lucifer/Antichrist]
…Can there not be revelations of God utterly unprecedented, and for which we have no words or adequate means of expression? The ancient mysteries, so shortly to be restored, must be re-interpreted in the light of Christianity, and readapted to meet modern need… (Alice A. Bailey, From Bethlehem To Calvary)
Please note that the Bailey books are from Lucis Trust — formerly Lucifer Publishing Company:
http://www.lucistrust.org/en/arcane_school/talks_and_articles/the_esoteric_meaning_of_lucifer
The similarities of the quotes are eerie…
Dear Jonah 17 year old:
Of course God listens to us 24/7, but if you believe your job on earth is to be in prayer 24/7, you don’t get it.
We are not to be “removed” from the world, Jonah. We are to be “salt and light” to the world — this means we are to do what salt does: it gives flavor and is a preservative. We are to bring light to the unsaved by our testimony of HOW THE LORD SHOWED US WE WERE SINNERS.
Jesus Christ says: “if you want to be My disciple, you must deny yourself, pick up your Cross and follow Me.”
Jesus did NOT say: “if you want to be my disciple, you must intercede 24/7″.
The Lord Himself is our intercessor, our mediator between man and the Father, already, in heaven.
We are to be living breathing witnesses, unashamed of the Cross or the name of Jesus.
IHOP is a whacktown for whackjobs and freaks who do not want to truly follow Christ. It is a cult, sorry Jonah.
I also don’t appreciate your reprimand to the upset mom who’s kid was at iHop. You are out of line, little man. You do not know the Lord or the Word if you think God approves of your faux psychologizing to that worried mom with a kid becoming a counterfeit Christian at iHOP.
Meanwhile, study to show yourself approved, boy, so you can rightly divide the Word of God and present yourself unto a Holy God.
(Oh and check out of IHOP ASAP. The fish stinks from the head down, Bickle, Bob Jones and Paul Cain started IHOP and the disaster stinks still unto heaven. God is NOT pleased with counterfeits, Jonah.)
Oh, it looks like i directed some comments to “Jonah” about his reprimanding a mom w/ a kid at IHOP, when I should have been reprimanding “How Old Are the Naysayers” who idiotically and falsely reprimanded a mom for being upset her kid was stuck in IHOP with all their phony psychologizing against her.
Hey, ‘HOW OLD ARE THE NAYSAYERS”… I don’t get it. Why is it important how old the Naysayers against IHOP are?
I think the issue isn’t anyone’s age, it is how much they follow the Word.
Which people at IHOP, really the most crudely stupid type of Christian I have ever met, IHOP literally makes people into dumb brute beasts who are forever “learning but never coming to the full knowledge of the truth”…
One thing about the ignoramuses of IHOP and the NAR, they use outdated fake psychobabble words like “Overbearing mother” and “controlling” a lot. And you can bet they never studied Freud or Jung, so they are just forty years behind the curve in their lingo because they picked it up on some tv rerun somewhere.
Sorry “HOW OLD ARE THE NAYSAYERS” but you should be ashamed of yourself. You are, in truth, sticking up for the counterfeits of IHOP by trying to “help” the mom in pain. How dare you?
Again the Lord is NOT pleased with this sort of rebellious counterfeit “Christianity”… this is why the USA is already under judgment and she will not recover… thanks to the “church” people like the freaks at IHOP.
Susan (Comment #73),
I would like to know what basis you have for saying that Rick Warren is demon-possessed. I assume you meant Rick Joyner and instead typed Rick Warren? I really believe there is no basis for the statement that Rick Warren is demon-possessed.
The bottom line of all of this, and I have spent literally all day today reading every single comment here, is this: 1 John 4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” Really, that is all that needs to be said. If you test IHOP and its leaders against the Scriptures, there are too many things that just don’t add up.
How old are the naysayers?… interesting name you’ve got there.. a tad rebellious you might say…
Thanks for the heartfelt input from you! Wow. So blaming my son’s emmersion into IHOP is synonymous with blaming the neighbor’s kid, huh?
My dear, alas, I have already sent the card you recommended – which stated: can we not simply agree to disagree? I have already said, “I love you and I’m willing to listen” so great suggestions on your part but sadly, they also could not penetrate the impurvious IHOP barrier.
Remember: IHOP’s “older and wiser council” <–my son's words, RECOMMENDED "no communication" for "one YEAR at least"…
What kind of a Christ-centered <–meaning the greatest emphasis is Christ, would encourage, recommend or council its members to dishonor their parent so entirely? What kind?
No, I don't know if I'll ever hear from my son again as long as he is with IHOP. He's a grown man. Not aged but he is grown so his choices are just that – his.
Now here's a question for you: what is it that will help to hasten the Lord's return?
SP
17 year old Jonah,
I hope you’re not practicing Contemplative Prayer. Jonah, CP is the same thing as transcendental meditation (TM). TM is an occult practice.
I’m not being heartless for dissing IHOP – M Bickle is as deceived as the people hanging their hopes and dreams on the words coming out of his mouth. The thing to remember though, is before Jesus returns there will be a GREAT falling away – and if it were possible, it would even fool the very elect.
SP
My feature article “Forerunner Eschatology: Mike Bickle’s End-Time Teaching and the International House of Prayer” was just published in the Christian Research Journal.
You can order a copy of the Journal at http://www.equip.org.
Todd Bentley’s visited IHOP – see latest video – he says the presence of God is tangible and there is a 24 hour open heaven. Well, can’t argue with the man who had 30 resurrections at his revival meetings.
He had a great summer, flying his children over, taking them out to theme parks, going to the gym every day.
Where did all that money go, Todd.
False prophets are those who perform false miracles, claim to be the Messiah, or lead others astray.
A preacher who admonishes those who will listen to live the sermon on the mount, pursue the 1st commandment (and thus be better equipped to love others), and deny themselves and spend time building their relationship with Jesus is not a false teacher.
Our inner man is the only thing we take with us into eternity; for some of you on here, you might want to quit posting words you will be held accountable for and maybe visit the prayer room before you let issues that occurred 20+ years ago embitter you, your walk with Jesus, and others in the Body of Christ.
Kind Regards,
RR
“thanks to the “church” people like the freaks at IHOP.” -Arisemylove
Sorry, do you actually know any of the “church people freaks” at IHOP yourself? Or are you condemning the sinner and not the sin because since IHOP is supposedly practicing what you believe to be occult behavior, then everyone who goes to pray at IHOP or takes a part in their ministry is a “freak” worthy of condemnation and bringing on the “falling away” of the Church. Funny, they sort of LED me back to Christ…
The tone of many of your postings appalls me.
You are “quite” the apologetic…”Christian”
Abominable Practices
9″When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you,(J) you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you anyone(K) who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[e] anyone who(L) practices divination or(M) tells fortunes or interprets omens, or(N) a sorcerer 11or a charmer or(O) a medium or a necromancer or(P) one who inquires of the dead, 12(Q) for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD….15(S) “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—
29″The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
These people who are teaching the doctrine of personal prophetic utterance are practicing the things of the land that is not of God… Anyone who is seeking the secret things of God that have not been revealed in His word, sufficient for life, for correction, encouragement, edification, training are practicing the occult (secret knowledge) a new age practice. God has already revealed all that we are to know inorder to walk and live this life as we seek Him and what He has given us through the scriptures.
Deuteronomy 29:29 explains that the secret things belong to God not to us and that He has already revealed what we need to know.
Moses states in a prophetic word the the Israelites that another would come that would replace him and we are to listen to him. When Jesus was on the mount of figuration God responded by, “This is my Son, LISTEN TO HIM!” Can someone show me this new secret of 24/7 prayer from scripture? Did Jesus teach us to do this? and why would God, who is the Same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow, change what He has already established in His Word by changing Christianity as we know it today in one generation.
I fear PRIDE is the main issue here and the desire to be like a God by following and making up a man-made-program rather than studying the word of God in context to the original author (the Holy Spirit)interpretation.
Return to the Word of God and repent and live in Holiness and Righteousness to what our Lord Jesus Christ commands and stop the foolishness and deception that is being taught by the NAR folks and thos in leadership within that camp.
Christina Joy Alexander,
I don’t know about Rick Warren being “demon possessed”. I have no comment on that one since I don’t follow him – but the reason I do not follow him or get into ‘Purpose Driven’ is due to his extreme support of Contemplative Prayer.
Contemplative is identical to transcendental meditation which has its roots in Hinduism and Buddhism and is an occult practice. Contemplative Prayer is, for the same reasons, an occult practice – the really bad part about it is that believers in Christ who do it, feel that if they repeat a nice Bible word or phrase over and over that it becomes a really “fantastic way” to communicate with the Lord. Trouble is, the voice or message they’re hearing when they do this is not from God. It’s from a phony Jesus. An imposter.
Rick Warren practices this Contemplative Prayer – and anyone who practices it, though they may not realize it, are taking part in an occult practice.
Hope that helps.
SP
Miriam, I know it’s been almost a year since you wrote:
“YWAM’s fees are high and are not just break even, or even only just over. Is that right?”
But I wonder if you would take the time. I’m concerned, as I’m still trying to make my mind up about your blog, and I’m thinking of working with YWAM in the next few years.
What leads you to believe that YWAM charges well more than they need to? Or have I misinterpreted your comment?
Daniel,
My “tone” is the same “tone” Jesus used against the false prophets and teachers of His time when the Lord warned and warned and warned against false teaching and counterfeit prophecy.
So, please don’t judge my “tone’… it is usually the “religious spirit” in you or people who don’t like criticism of the iHOP mentality that have said to me or Miriam over the years “your tone is out of line”.
If my “tone” is out of line, then, how about the “tone” of Lakeland, where kicking old ladies in the face in brutishness passes itself off at IHOP as a Christian practice of “healing”?
Jesus Himself was SARCASTIC when He spoke of Jezebel’s teachings as He attempted to convince the church at Thyritra to watch out for her false prophecies.. He says, with huge irony and sarcasm, that “Jezebel teaches the SO CALLED DEEP THINGS OF SATAN”…
Yeah. That’s Jesus. Warning us with an ironic “tone” that we are not to focus on the “so called deep things of Satan” that Jezebel teaches instead of teaching people how to bear their Cross. Just like IHOP teaches, by the way.
Yes I know quite a few people from IHOP. No fruit in their lives. Magical thinking. The women actually start to look weird because they have taken on that demonic familiar spirit and they think it is the Lord. They are always broke because they live in a false Christianity of UNREALITY and cannot deal with the real world as Jesus tells us we are to do.
IHOP teaches a false ascetism of ‘removing oneself from the world altogether” in order to do their 24/7 prayer. Instead they should teach how to bear our individual crosses and thereby build up the Body of Christ in Love and right relationship. The idea that God needs “intercessors” to pray 24/7 instead of “workers to the harvest” who are willing to lay down their lives to preach the Word which never comes back void — is crazy. Jesus has bound the principalities on the Cross. Our job is to PREACH THE WORD UNADORNED TO THE LOST, not hide from the world by prayer.
OUR JOB IS TO WITNESS and give personal TESTIMONY of how our lives are changed by the blood of Jesus. We are to give evidence to the unsaved of the truth that is the Lord Jesus. We are not to pretend to be doing God’s work by constant and incessant prayer around the clock. There is a time for intercession, but that is an individual thing between man and God, not to be made into a formula of “24/7″ prayer so IHOP can boast in their works.
Where is the fruit of all that prayer? I just see weird people coming out with no foundation in the Word, and scary dominionism and NO discernment that Lakeland is the great Apostasy God promised for the End Times.
You do understand that, Daniel, correct? This is the great Apostasy that is in the Bible. Notice that IHOP never teaches on that…
Study to show yourself approved Daniel.
Having been in YWAM for 30 years I am always fascinated by these conversations. I would be interested in documentation proving YWAM charges more than they need too. Since all YWAMers raise their own support and when doing a school, They figure a budget that varies depending on the locations and the expenses involved for that area. Housing, food, transportation etc.
As far as Mike Bickle and IHOP I have seen many young people go through their schools and come out of them with a genuine love of Jesus and an intense love of the Word of God. Never isolated from their families or any of the above claims written by the blogger.
But of course this is just my opinion from looking at the fruit. Oh Yes! That’s what Jesus said you will know them by their fruit.
So AriseMyLove, excuse MY tone, but
what denomination are you exactly a part of? Some American-born Protestant denomination with a history of barely 200 years if not less? How can you say some of the things you are saying? We don’t need monks? We don’t need contemplative prayer or meditation?
SO, “Our job is to PREACH THE WORD UNADORNED TO THE LOST, not hide from the world by prayer.
OUR JOB IS TO WITNESS and give personal TESTIMONY ” -Arisemylove
I believe that is correct to. Maybe not the whole picture, but that part is correct.
And yet you say, “not hide from the world by prayer”, which I do not wholly agree with. We are to be UNIFIED but we are all different parts of a body. Some parts of the body pray (IHOP), some go out into missions (YWAM), some teach in schools (Catholics and Christian schools), and some “test” the spirit of some Christian movements (you).
Even during Jesus’ time there were “monks” or hermits that went off into the desert to be RADICAL WITNESSES.
If there were not ever monks or these people who separated themselves from the world, then what Christian history is there? The monks were crucial to the Church during the Dark Age times and THEY were one of the first MISSIONARY groups as well.
You know what IHOP-led TEEN MINISTRIES and such do?
Exactly what you said: “OUR JOB IS TO WITNESS and give personal TESTIMONY of how our lives are changed by the blood of Jesus.”
Different speakers go up on stage infront of 300-500 teens and share their testimony and eventually this draws MANY MANY teens to RADICAL Christianity. A relationship with Christ that they are NOT afraid to have in front of their friends or back home. Each speaker’s personal TESTIMONY can affect the students and whether you think the IHOP “doctrine” is false or off, they’re doing a lot more of PERSONAL TESTIMONY and CHANGING LIVES by the BLOOD OF JESUS than your IHOP-slandering comments and offensive-demeaning-self-righteous-judgmental tones.
Also, excuse my tone again, but Don’t ask me to stop “judging your tone” when you are judging FAR MORE things than I’ve even touched on. You judge all other denominations, ALL the staff and interns and students at IHOP, calling them freaks and “religious spirit” and having “no fruit in their lives.” You judge them so easily and sound so sure of these opinions, and yet
“For we know in part and we prophesy in part,” – 1 Corinthians 13:9
24/7 prayer is a bad thing? Paul said: PRAY WITHOUT CEASING. (1 Thessalonians 5:17) Sure let’s not take that so “literally” but then again you are taking a BUNCH of things out of context, literally, or judging things completely based on your own opinion. So can we at least argue that perhaps a 24/7 prayer house is now the “devil’s doing” in a secular world where so many people already pray less and less.
The Church can have a couple of mess-up like the Lakeland revival or the Crusades, selling of indulgences, etc. But look at Peter, the rock upon whom Christ said he would build his Church. Peter sinned, denied Christ, and even after Christ died and rose again, Peter was still found going back to fishing after all that had happened. St. Augustine, a huge figure in Christianity also went a little downhill but he wrote amazing works as well. How can you deny the whole with human mess-ups?
If a pastor at your Church is suddenly part of a scandal, are you going to suddenly condemn the whole Church, Denomination, as the devil’s doing. A GREAT APOSTASY.?
You say, “Our job is to PREACH THE WORD UNADORNED TO THE LOST”, and yet you are condemning YWAM?
How many times a year do you “go out and PREACH the Word unadorned to the LOST?” DO you go to the hundreds and thousands of unreached areas throughout the world and preach? Or are you just sitting behind a computer blogging and commenting offensively about the people (YWAM) who actually do?
Sure, you can disagree with some of the “doctrines” of IHOP. That’s pretty much why there are thousands of new denominations being born in America every year. But as you said, what is the fruit?
Apparently, the fruit from many people of IHOP and YWAM are Christian re-born teens and young people, more and more young people living their faith and not just talking it. More and more teens repenting and committing their lives to Jesus. I’ve been to dozens of Church retreats (not just one church) and I have yet to see a retreat that leaves a LASTING imprint on one’s heart as IHOP’s teen ministry was. Same with YWAM. They are not the “perfect” ministries but they are excellent ones that GOD CAN use. will use. has used. is using.
“Study to show yourself approved” – Arisemylove
Offensive but I forgive you.
Dear Kit:
Really? I think the Lord wants the fruit of ministry to be making people fit for the “great commission” … evangelism.
IHOP teaches that you “evangelize” by 24/7 prayer.
IHOP teaches that you fight principalities by “declarations” instead of righteous behavior.
IHOP teaches Dominionism, that Jesus wants us to “take over” governments and nations for Him. (Of course Jesus NEVER said any such thing. What He did say was “My Kingdom is NOT of this world, otherwise I would have my angels fight”.
Again IHOP teaches DOMINIONISM, which is an AntiChrist counterfeit.
IHOP teaches that intercession is “making declarations” and “binding demons” rather than identifying personally with the sin of the unsaved or fallen person or people you are praying for.
IHOP teaches that prayer is more effective “evangelism” than the actual manner in which Jesus tells us to evangelize … by PREACHING THE WORD to the unsaved. “How will they hear, if there is no one to preach?”
IHOP teaches a cowardice in the Spirit: hiding behind 24/7 prayer instead of laying down one’s life for the Gospel.
IHOP teaches a hatred in the Spirit: judging the unsaved for their sin instead of realizing they bear the responsibility for preaching the Word to the unsaved.
IHOP teaches a covetousness and jealousy of the world: their desire to dominate by worldly power the governments and nations of the world is entirely at odds with Christ’s message that His kingdom is NOT of this world, but is the kingdom that vanquishes sin in people’s hearts.
IHOP teaches false spiritual warfare: that demons can reside in physical objects, or geographical places like riverways or buildings, etc, which is witchcraft.
IHOP teaches that unknown curses on an individual exist even after that person is born again, thereby denying that Jesus became the Curse for us once and for all.
IHOP deceives people into thinking they are “affecting the heavenlies” by their “binding demons” and “breaking strongholds” prayers, not realizing that a stronghold is a set of arguments that “resist the knowledge of God” and need to be discussed and disentangled by proper application of the Word.
IHOP fails to teach their people proper discernment of spirits, especially the spirit of false or counterfeit prophecy. This is why so many of them mistake the Holy Spirit for a demonic familiar spirit and why their prophets never seem to have any accurate or true prophecies.
IHOP began with Mike Bickle’s sin of “tolerating Jezebel” as he never confronted or kicked Bob Jones or Paul Cain out of IHOP. Bickle’s own salvation is at stake here, as the Lord goes on to explain in Revelation 2:20.
This is the fruit of IHOP. I’d write about a hundred more instances of error, sinful teachings and counterfeit and demonic beliefs, but my fingers are tired.
Go ahead Kit Hackett, refute this. Refute it for your own salvation’s sake as well as those infected hordes at IHOP.
Dear Daniel
I am sorry that you are offended by the Word of God… “study to show yourself approved unto a Holy God so that you might rightly divide the Word of truth”…
We are to study the Bible in order that we ‘rightly discern it’ or “rightly divide it”, Daniel.
Contemplative prayer or monasticism or the whole idea of having monks and convents that are withdrawn from the world is at odds with the Bible, of course
This, my friend Daniel, is the reason that Catholics were not too welcome in the United States in the 1800’s and the reason for antiCatholic sentiment worldwide.
It is because Paul says that ‘we are not to remove oneself from the world” but (1 COR 5 10) but rather we are to be “salt” to the world — salt, a preservative that “strengthens that which remains of goodness in the world” and light, which is the Light of Truth, which is the Word which is Christ made flesh.
In other words, Jesus warns us against false asceticism.
Do you know why Jesus preaches against asceticism? It is because IT DOES NOTHING TO HARNESS SIN.
Removing oneself from the world in order to “pray” is not spiritual in the Lord’s kingdom because it does nothing to curtail sin. In fact, this is the source of antiCatholic thought —
– people in the 1800’s believed that Catholic monks who removed themselves from the world in order to be thought more “spiritual” would in fact start indulging in sexual immorality, because these monks were not adhering to the Bible’s ideas about marriage and the gift of becoming a eunuch.
If the sexual urge is too much — one is to get married. The Catholic monastery and convent systems denies the Word of God by design.
(Of course, the reason the Catholics do this is because they believe their priests are a sort of resurrected Old Testament High Priesthood.
Not unlike how the leaders of IHOP believe their ‘apostles” and “prophets” to be a sort of resurrected Old Testament “Prophets” and New Testament “Apostles” — through their false teachings about what qualified OT prophets to be prophets and NT Apostles to be witnesses of the Christ who wrote the infallible word of God.)
And history proves, those Anti-Catholic people WERE RIGHT to be concerned about perversion in the ranks of those who think “being removed from the world altogether” is more spiritual. Perversion is now an institution itself in the Catholic priesthood!
Even, though Buddhists and Hindus and Catholics believe the monastic lifestyle to be more spiritual, the Lord tells us that “it does nothing to curtail the flesh and its sinful desires”. The Word tells us that “not touching this, or not eating that” or “removing oneself from the unsaved world” is a FALSE asceticism and has no power to help people overcome their sin. In fact, it may even prove to “puff people up in their fleshly minds’ with vain ideas that they are somehow “more spiritual’ for removing themselves from the world.
Gee, the more I write about this false asceticism, the more i see how the NAR and IHOP have fallen into the traps of “empty philosophy” that Paul warns against.
(for years now, the true prophets in the West have warned that the NAR and IHOP and YWAM are Gnostics, because of their William Branham and Bill Hamon roots, but now I see it more clearly. When will they wake up and shake off the end time Delusion, which is why they are so stupid about not seeing Lakeland etc?)
In other words, Daniel, the uneducated and dumbed down Americans who are wowed by the idea of “contemplative prayer” because it sounds so ‘mystical” and so Thomas Merton-ish, and so “special” and so exciting, are fooling themselves into a false asceticism that has NO POWER IN THE SPIRIT.
24/7 prayer is meaningless unless GOD INSTRUCTS SOMEONE TO 24/7 prayer. “There is a time and a season for all things under heaven” ==
There may be a time and a season for removing oneself from the world to pray for a situation, but it is not to be a LIFESTYLE.
Praying without ceasing does not mean you STOP LIVING in order to pray. Praying without ceasing is an attitude of FAITH. Praying without ceasing does not mean you go into a convent or prayer room for the rest of your life.
And anyway, since Jesus already tore down the Principalities and Powers, and frog marched them in His victory parade, how come people at IHOP and the NAR think they have a duty to “pray against principalities”?
They are to “wrestle against them” the way we wrestle in our minds against temptation to sin, but faith requires that we realize Jesus already nailed Satan to the Cross. He is a defeated foe unless a Christian willfully sins.
Sin is the issue, Daniel, not 24/7 prayer. And this is why it is necessary for the church to bind itself together in Godly relationships of interpersonal nature in order that we might help one another with our individual crosses.
A prayer formula for 24/7 prayer is not the answer. Loving your brother and helping him carry his cross is the answer –
and this is why Jesus said “They shall know Me by your love for one another.”
Notice He did not say “they shall know you by your 24/7 prayers and mystical magical mumbo jumbo about your power over Satan”…
Study to show yourself approved, Daniel. Your tone does not offend me at all.
I am concerned that you do not see that the NAR and IHOP are not founded on the Word of God and this is why they are so whack and AntiChrist. I am encouraged that you have thought it through to some extent, but your historicity of the church is faulty.
Dr. Andrew Jackson,
Is there any place else I can see your article? I do not get that publication.
Thanks AriseMyLove, that was a good little synopsis of the IHOP issues. I’m going to print that out, because it is starting to infiltrate my church and I am praying about whether to confront, leave, stay, etc.
I believe God is really working through iHop.
AriseMyLove, it is a matter of how people view it. Demons CAN posses things. I’ve seen plenty of demon possessed people. I don’t know where you guys have been, but I believe iHop is teaching the right things to young people. Think to yourself, is this YOU talking? Or is this God talking. Or even maybe, is this satan talking through you?
AriseMyLove
Again IHOP teaches DOMINIONISM, which is an AntiChrist counterfeit.
_________________________
Ok lets see what God says about dominion and authority. Everything I’m going to say is straight from scripture. So where did dominion originate? One day God created Adam. God said I give you DOMINION over the animals, fish of the sea, and the whole earth. When Adam sinned mankind lost his God given dominion. Fallen man lost his right to rule and reign over everything. BUT when Jesus came and died on the cross He redeemed mankind back to God and to regain the dominion that man had lost. Hebrews 2:5-8 talks about how God created humans a little lower than the angels, but humans were still in charge over everything on earth. In Psalms 8:4-6, David mentions the same thing. That he is marvelled by the fact that God allows humans to rule and reign over God’s creation. Now I know alot, and I mean alot of people don’t understand authority and dominion in a christian. They call it “dominionism” or “antichrist”. I say this many many times on this blog we need to understand that Jesus didn’t die JUST to save our souls and go to heaven. Yes thats one part, true. But why dismiss everything else? God has given you authority over sin, demons, principalities, etc. In fact, the main reason that Jesus came to die for us was to bring us back to the Father, for we were created for communion. We were created to breathe, walk, talk, and move in God. To have Him live in us, through us, and with us. For Him to abide in us and comfort us. To guide us and strenghten us. NOT just to save us and wait for glory land 20,30,40 years from now. See how much the Father loves us, he created us for communion. I have just used scripture, without twisting, to prove that dominion and authority are from God and NOT from “the antichrist”, demon or devil. If you have any issues with dominion and authority seek God about it. Don’t just read it and rationalize it without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will confirm His Word through your spirit. And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
Daniel,
You said, “Look at Peter. The rock on whom Christ said he would build his church.” Daniel, Christ was not talking about building his church on Peter. He was speaking about HIMSELF saying, “upon THIS rock will I build my church”.
Jesus was saying his church would be built on the testimony of himself – not Peter.
I know Mike Bickle et al are quite fond of the Catholic mystics, but you’d think he’d at least taught you guys correctly on that one.
Hey, don’t take MY word for it. Ask Bickle yourself and see what he says. And if you want to go one step further, check your bible. It’s in there…
SP
Good point, Arise My Love:
“There may be a time and a season for removing oneself from the world to pray for a situation, but it is not to be a LIFESTYLE.
Praying without ceasing does not mean you STOP LIVING in order to pray. Praying without ceasing is an attitude of FAITH. “
My thought: We’re also told, if a man will not WORK, neither will he EAT. Notice it doesn’t say “if a man will not PRAY, neither will he EAT”. (I think God sort of expects us to do that.)
I’ll never forget the time I was asked to consider “sending support money” since he was “an intercessory prayer missionary.”
Someone from IHOP, please show me where the scripture is/are located to support “intercessory PRAYER MISSIONARY”. Better yet, how about a simple definition telling me what IS an “intercessory prayer missionary”?
(I am a big believer of “ambulatory prayer”. i.e. if I’m walking, running, driving, passengering or tapping my foot, I’m praying.)
True intercessory prayer is some seriously intense prayer time, guys. I find it very interesting that so many IHOP people feel they are called to intercessory prayer since it requires a very SENSATIVE and EMPATHETIC heart… I say this because IHOPpers sort of remind me of Al Qaeda — as they do everything short of calling people who strongly disagree with IHOP “INFIDELS!”
(Tongue in cheek here… I know… my bad.)
SP
arisemylove,
haha ok, so you’re ALSO anti-Catholic. Done a lot of research really? Your anti-catholic sentiment and reasoning is actually quite ignorant and typical, so you have not done any real research there, I see.
Ah ha, well enough said.
I see where you come from.
You’ve discourage me completely from ever checking back into this blog post. You’re against anything that is different from your own American-born denomination. Too bad EVERY other denomination of Christianity does not COMPLETELY ever agree with you. You are not the holder of complete truth, as the bible says. You are half-knowing and yet claim a little more than then. And the way you attack everyone else who is essentially not of YOUR culture and denomination, discourages me from taking seriously any of your points. Sad… I’ll pray for you.:/
sad parent,
stop being sad. be joyful. That might help brighten your perspective and spirit.
A preacher recently said he wants “global domination”. IS THIS JUST CRAZY TALK, OR WHAT?
Also, to “arisemylove”: thousands upon thousands of Christians WANT to be married and definitely have STRONG SEXUAL DESIRES. But, there aren’t too many marriages. It is very, very, very difficult to find someone to marry and to live the rest of your life with. It’s not like the old days, when life was simpler. Many are settling for a life of celibacy…it’s not the best plan, but that is what works for now!
Dear Jesus Heals:
There is a huge difference between God giving us “dominion” which is righteous stewardship and being His ambassadors and delegates upon earth –
– and “DOMINIONISM” of IHOP and the NAR that falsely says we are to take over worldly kingdoms and worldly enterprises by whatever means in order to FORCE JESUS TO COME BACK FOR THE SECOND COMING.
We do not “tell God what to do” in our prayers. We can only pray according to His will. How insane for Bickle and others to teach that Jesus will only come back for the Second Coming when “Christians” take dominion of worldly businesses and nations and governments! That’s nuts.
Jesus said “I will have to shorten the time of the end for the Elect” and “When the son of man returns to the earth, will He still find faith?” Anyone who believes in Dominionism is in danger of being under the strong delusion that the AntiChrist is in fact, God.
You do get that, don’t you? Dominionism is evil. Dominionism teaches that the ends justify the means — Domionionism means that “they will kill you and believe they are doing a duty for God”…
It was a false idea of worldly dominionism that caused the Jews at Jesus’ time to believe their Messiah would vanquish the Romans for them — in blood.
This is why Jesus had to correct His disciples — “My Kingdom is NOT of this world.”
It was to ward off false and bloody Dominionism that Jesus told His disciples — who wanted to “call down fire like Elijah” upon the Samaritans — that this is not the way of Christianity.
Dominionism has more to do with “Domination by earthly means” —
Taking dominion in God’s kingdom means
1. walking by the power of the Cross in our lives –
2, dying to self —
3. following Him in obedience —
4. submitting to one another in Love —
5. “taking dominion” in the Lord means sacrificing your own selfish ambition for the sake of others and watching the Lord raise you up
The NAR and IHOP teach DOMINATION by worldly means, not dominion by dying to the flesh. This is the danger of “Dominionism”.
Remember, God’s Kingdom is NOT of this world. His Kingdom is spread by our dying to ourselves — unless a seed falls upon the ground and dies, it cannot bear fruit —
that is how we “take dominion” for the Lord. Sacrificial living in the Cross, NOT DEMANDING OUR SO CALLED “RIGHTS” OF GOD, is how we are to have “authority”.
Also remember, JesusHeals, that true “authority” comes from overcoming sin in our personal lives — NOT casting out demons.
Dear Sadparent…
Hey you caught a whopper on Daniel with the quote about Peter.
I am flabbergasted at the lack of sound doctrine and teaching that goes on.
Of course the Lord was not saying that He was building His church upon Peter himself… it was right after Peter had the revelation from God that Jesus commended him for “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you…”
Oh! How the Catholic dogma on that scripture verse has caused so many to stumble and perhaps miss salvation.
Dear Hmmm…
Oh, really? Demons can “possess things” or inanimate objects?
Really? Show me the biblical evidence for that.
I never saw the Lord Jesus Christ cast a demon out of a rock. Or a building. Or a piece of wood.
This is because demonic possession always has to do with legal agreement of SIN in a PERSON’s life. Sin is how the devil gets a foothold.
A piece of wood,
a rock
a tree… they do not SIN.
Jesus cast some demons out of a man and put them into pigs who then died.
That is about the closest you’ll get to an inanimate object.
The whole game the Devil plays is in people’s minds in order to get them to sin and allow the Devil to gain a foothold of possession over a PERSON.
Not over a tree, or a river, or a book, or a car etc.
These things do NOT SIN.
You all clear now?
Jesus rebuked Satan in Peter because Peter was in legal agreement with Satan — that it would be “really sad and really bad if Jesus went to the Cross”…
this is why Jesus rebuked Satan in Peter.
It was because Peter was agreeing with Satan’s lie that Jesus should not die on the Cross.
Satan ALWAYS attacks us in our thinking. This is the battleground for all spiritual warfare — OUR MINDS. A stronghold is a Satanic way of thinking. Jesus broke a stronghold of lies off of Peter that day by correcting him and rebuking the devil’s lies.
Study to show yourself approved. Demons do not “possess” inanimate objects like rocks.
But feel free to try to explain yourself, “Hmmmmm”.
Dear AnyOne Who Likes IHOP:
Guys and gals, uh, your salvation is at stake. This is a serious blog on a serious subject, the most serious subject of all life.
PLEASE review all the doctrines and teachings and prophecies out of IHOP and compare and contrast them to the Word.
As time draws nigh on this nation, the US is Mystery Babylon after all, ALL WE HAVE IS THE LIVING ETERNAL WORD to guide us.
Learn it.
Eat it.
LIve it.
Love it. And then DO it and love one another.
The unsaved are our responsibility. And the only way they will know Him is by our love for one another in the church. So toss out this hateful dominionism of the NAR and IHOP, because it curses your call to Christ’s great commission.
To Annonymous7 (post 188)
You know, talking about false teaching and false prophecy out of IHOP…
it is the spirit of Jezebel behind the NAR and IHOP. Jezebel “who calls herself a prophetess…”
The spirit of Jezebel is “without co habitation”. This is a spirit that is AGAINST marriage. It is because this IHOP NAR Jezebel spirit is a WHORE who “sells intercession and prophecy for money”.
Sadparent just related how people in IHOP want to be PAID to intercede. As if their prayers are more important or potent than others. I have seen this over and over again. In fact when I saw Todd Bentley three years before Lakeland, he bragged he had “paid intercessors”… What a sinful statement!
ONCE YOU PAY SOMEONE TO INTERCEDE, there is no longer any sacrifice in the prayers! This is the Whorishness of false prophetess Jezebel!
She is the precursor to the Whore of Babylon and this is why the doctrines of IHOP and the NAR are SO DANGEROUS.
This JEzebel WHORE wants people to be PAID TO PRAY, PAID TO PROPHECY and be PAID TO PREACH THE FREE GIFT OF JESUS.
THE Lord is NOT PLEASED.
Dear Daniel:
I have no idea what planet you are on that you think Catholicism has anything to do with Christianity..
Do you understand the reason there were “Protest” ers or “Protestants” against the Roman Catholic church?
It is because number one… there is NO mediator between man and God EXCEPT Jesus Christ, yet the Catholics assert that the POPE is God’s mediator between man and God on earth!
Thus the problem of “Popery”…
You do know a little bit about Church history, no?
Be careful Daneil, you are heavily infected with NAR and IHOP type false doctrines.
SO, “Our job is to PREACH THE WORD UNADORNED TO THE LOST, not hide from the world by prayer.
OUR JOB IS TO WITNESS and give personal TESTIMONY ” -Arisemylove
I believe that is correct to. Maybe not the whole picture, but that part is correct.
And yet you say, “not hide from the world by prayer”, which I do not wholly agree with. We are to be UNIFIED but we are all different parts of a body. Some parts of the body pray (IHOP), some go out into missions (YWAM), some teach in schools (Catholics and Christian schools), and some “test” the spirit of some Christian movements (you).
Even during Jesus’ time there were “monks” or hermits that went off into the desert to be RADICAL WITNESSES.
If there were not ever monks or these people who separated themselves from the world, then what Christian history is there? The monks were crucial to the Church during the Dark Age times and THEY were one of the first MISSIONARY groups as well.
You know what IHOP-led TEEN MINISTRIES and such do?
Exactly what you said: “OUR JOB IS TO WITNESS and give personal TESTIMONY of how our lives are changed by the blood of Jesus.”
Different speakers go up on stage infront of 300-500 teens and share their testimony and eventually this draws MANY MANY teens to RADICAL Christianity. A relationship with Christ that they are NOT afraid to have in front of their friends or back home. Each speaker’s personal TESTIMONY can affect the students and whether you think the IHOP “doctrine” is false or off, they’re doing a lot more of PERSONAL TESTIMONY and CHANGING LIVES by the BLOOD OF JESUS than your IHOP-slandering comments and offensive-demeaning-self-righteous-judgmental tones.
You say, “Our job is to PREACH THE WORD UNADORNED TO THE LOST”, and yet you are condemning YWAM?
How many times a year do you “go out and PREACH the Word unadorned to the LOST?” DO you go to the hundreds and thousands of unreached areas throughout the world and preach? Or are you just sitting behind a computer blogging and commenting offensively about the people (YWAM) who actually do?
Sure, you can disagree with some of the “doctrines” of IHOP. That’s pretty much why there are thousands of new denominations being born in America every year. But as you said, what is the fruit?
Apparently, the fruit from many people of IHOP and YWAM are Christian re-born teens and young people, more and more young people living their faith and not just talking it. More and more teens repenting and committing their lives to Jesus. I’ve been to dozens of Church retreats (not just one church) and I have yet to see a retreat that leaves a LASTING imprint on one’s heart as IHOP’s teen ministry was. Same with YWAM. They are not the “perfect” ministries but they are excellent ones that GOD CAN use. will use. has used. is using.
“Study to show yourself approved”
quote:”
Hey you caught a whopper on Daniel with the quote about Peter.
I am flabbergasted at the lack of sound doctrine and teaching that goes on.
Of course the Lord was not saying that He was building His church upon Peter himself… it was right after Peter had the revelation from God that Jesus commended him for “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you…”
Oh! How the Catholic dogma on that scripture verse has caused so many to stumble and perhaps miss salvation.”-ARISEMYLOVE
Hm, so I understand you what some theologians say about how the Greek translated text of “You are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Translates with Peter = Petras and Rock = Petra, and therefore, Jesus may have been referring to Himself (Petra).
But then WHY would Jesus start with: You are Peter, AND upon this Rock…” ?
Why didn’t he just say, “Upon this rock”, if he was referring to himself?
Why did he change Simon’s name to Peter then?
What’s the significance of Jesus even saying, “You are Peter” first?
Perhaps Jesus MEANT this word play, between Peter’s name and the fact that he was building his Church upon a ROCK/PETRA, as well as Peter/Petras.
Why is Simon’s name changed to PETER (PETRAS) and then NEXT thing Jesus says is, “upon this PETRA/ROCK” , I will build my church? Coincidence?
“Study to show yourself approved”
Dear Sadparent
I’m sad, sadparent, that you are sad. Actually, what saddens me is that you took a bad experience, took some stupid advice from an immature IHOPer to your child, and you’ve let it flourish into a hideous tree of bitterness. I see a whole shedload of unforgiveness. Now you can refute me on this point if you like. Yes, that was a rough experience. Sucks that IHOP, a large organization that tries to represent Christ (ie, one filled with Christian, despite AriseMyLove’s crack, it is filled with God-Loving, Jesus-Believing, Holy Spirit-Moving Christians) should have a moron or two in it’s midst, and unfortunately your kid found one, and it hurt you. I’m sad that happened, and such things should be spoken against and dealt with in this organization. I have experience with large organizations (OM and AriseMyLove’s hated YWAM) and they have a lot of people in them. And a lot of very strange people, a lot of people with different hurts, backgrounds, baggage and they bring it all into the organization with them. And they are not perfect. But they do give it a go, they do their best (from what I’ve experienced) to serve God wholeheartedly, to know Him intimately and live like Christ lived.
IHOP may be missing the plot, or they may have a very specific, direct call from God. But don’t pass judgment on the organization on a whole because of one of their members lack of wisdom.
Dear AriseMyLove,
Go to the dictionary and look up the word “hermeneutics”. Yours is in desperate need of an overhaul. When you’re finished with Hermeneutics, maybe look at “context” as well.
I can make the Bible say absolutely anything, and call it truth with a distorted hermeneutic, but that doesn’t make it truth. Sort yourself out. Interpret from context, then prove it by experience in life. Till then, please stop defacing scripture by quoting it like you have been.
And I don’t profess to be an expert on dominionism. It’s a label, a broad sweeping excuse for self-righteous bigotry, and you overuse it. If the “hateful dominionism” you oppose so badly does teach that rocks and trees etc. can be filled with demons, then it’s odd, and somewhat extrabiblical. But to say that people can be affected, influenced, oppressed and even posessed by demons is not extrabiblical. It’s all over the Bible, and I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
Also, apparently Cindy Jacobs is pretty close in with the hated “NAR” lot (and you are hateful to them), and I’ve read a couple of her books, and she always gives examples from scripture about what she says (and she doesn’t have to eisegete her meaning into it, unlike some…). She speaks of territorial spirits, and this is a very biblical concept. Read Daniel. (Not the blogger, the prophet).
In the end, I see you twisting scripture, spewing venomous, vindictive, mocking comments about people whose belief systems you either don’t understand or knowingly misinterpret, and in it all I do not find much Christlikeness. Also, Daniel (the blogger this time) asked you about yourself, you’re experience with putting your words into action, and you just talked about IHOP, not how you’ve lived what you’ve preached. Now I’ve listened to Bickle, and I’ve seen fruit from his ministry, and I’ve heard him preach. And if I were to choose between the two of you as to who was right, and who was being divisive and anti-Christ… the odds wouldn’t look good for you, AriseMyLove.
Yes, I like your call, learn your word, live it, and quit making ironic calls to love others until you show evidence of it in your own life, starting in blogoshpere.
Daniel,
(I realize writing this is my personal waste of typing time since you said you wouldn’t be returning to this blog but here goes)
I appreciate your advising me to “stop being sad, be joyful”. What lovely thoughts. And I understand e x a c t l y where you’re coming from Daniel.
I used to be with Word of Faith years ago. I knew there was power in my words. I had the power to “declare” things ‘and know they’d come to pass’. I could command things in my life to “line up with the word of God” and know that if I continued to ‘declare’ God’s word over a situation that it would HAVE to line up with the word of God. Sound familiar? Daniel, I’m truly sorry if my name offends you – but IHOP gave me that name. It would be rude not to accept it.
Arisemylove is NOT anti-Catholic. We on this blog are very strongly anti-error, however. Jesus did warn us that in the last days, if it were possible… even the very elect would be deceived. You’re very angry, Daniel. Just ask yourself one question: what IF these people are right? Now back up and ask yourself one more question: what IF the teachings coming out of IHOP are wrong? What if? Bickle is all the time up there saying, “HEY! Don’t take MY word for it! You’ve got your Bibles! Make sure what I’m telling you is right!” Ya ever seriously done that, Daniel?
SP
And also, Anyone who likes IHOP,
These are very obviously the last days before Christ’s return. People who disagree with Mike Bickle, Allen Hood and others at IHOP don’t hate them. We’re modern day watchmen – sounding the alarm – Bereans.
We are not practicing “religiosity” but are trying to sound an alarm. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t be wasting our time entering discussion after discussion. I’m personally hoping that IHOPer eyes will be opened. And why not. With Christ, all things are truly possible.
SP
NAR and IHOP Authority Based Upon Reincarnation!!!
AriseMyLove wrote,
“So toss out this hateful dominionism of the NAR and IHOP, because it curses your call to Christ’s great commission.”
Yes, it is true that believing and practicing dominionism curses ones’ call to Christ’s Great Commission. To clarify even further, NOLR/NAR Dominionism that IHOP is integral with is the historical fact that the doctrinal theories from which it was derived from three centuries ago included a theosophical type of Christ called “Adam Kadmon” — a central component of the Lurian Kabbalah. This also includes the Jewish occult belief in “Gilgul” combined with the Christianized Kabbalah theory that the souls of the original apostles and prophets would reincarnate into their genetic descendants (British Israelism, Freemasonry, Mormonism). The authority that the NOLR/NAR attempts to carry out their dominionism machinery is based upon leading their followers with the reincarnated souls of the original apostles and prophets. Of course, this is not biblical and besides being unacceptible it is illegal since Bickle, Hamon, Wagner, Joyner, Weiner, Grady, Sheets, Jacobs, and the rest of the reincarnated apostles and prophets found between the pages of NOLR Charisma are committing fraud by refusing to disclose their hidden history.
AriseMyLove writes,
“As time draws nigh on this nation, the US is Mystery Babylon after all, ALL WE HAVE IS THE LIVING ETERNAL WORD to guide us.”
Yes, the Bible is our chief guidebook (sola scriptura), but all of us also use other references to such as books on math, science, medicine, history, art, music, etc. This blog would not have been possible technically without all of the above.
Taking the mystery out of Mystery Babylon and seeing how the above false apostles merged Christian doctrines with those of the occult is not that hard. Joseph Smith formed his Mormon cult (clandestine freemasonry) in the same way as the Latter Rain leaders set out to formulate their new movement starting in 1947 during the false North Battleford Revival. The very same doctrinal elements were used.
Moreover, I suppose you cannot expect a large group of twentysomethings to grasp the historical connections when they are all told by NAR leaders that, “God is doing a new thing” (taking scripture totally out of context).
The physical death of baby Jeremiah Candler through willful negligence on behalf of IHOP missionary parents pales in comparison to the spiritual deaths of millions of youth now captured by these apostles of Jewish reincarnation i.e. Christian Kabbalah.
I would like to say that I fully agree with almost everything that’s been said against IHOP here. I was a part of them for almost three years, forced to be by my single parent who immersed themselves in false practices and prayers, they put on the guise of being holy and pure but they could not be further from it.
Eventually I felt that their teaching was entirely off the more I got into it but my hand was forced into trying to accept it. If I brought ‘anything that was not of God’ into my home, such as a video game or a halloween costume it was taken into the back yard and burned as they prayed over it and drove ‘prayer stakes’ into the ground.
I was abused. I was beaten and held down into chairs while these people claimed they were pulling demons from me. I was fifteen. I am considering filing a case against IHOP because they KNEW what my single parent was doing, I had serious wounds (they did not inflict but was an accident) but received no medical attention even when I told leaders in IHOP that I was not being taken care of and needed to see a doctor immediately. Several times I would plead with my worship leaders or prayer leaders to listen to me when I said I was being abused both verbally and physically and they disregarded every word I said. One night it got too far and my parent tried to choke me to death and a member of IHOP was visiting our home. She did not do anything. Instead I was told that if God were there he would ‘punishing’ me for being impure. Several times I had public confrontations with my parent but no one stepped in even though I was being verbally and physically threatened. Instead they supported them because I was the child and I wasn’t following their creed.
They are child abusers, false prophets and teachers. Everything is shallow, superficial and boosted up by self righteousness. I met personally with several leaders, knew the leader’s children and interns but was rejected when I told them my situation because I did not fully ‘embrace god’ and ‘everything happened in his time’.
Their programs steal thousands of dollars from innocent impressionable young men and women, buying them into their way of life and if you try to pull out of it often times a ‘prayer group’ will be sent to your home to attempt to ‘help’ you. They do ‘life interventions’ as well. Bob Jones was one such case but with good reason. I can’t condemn them confronting him because during my time there it came to light not only was he a pedophile but an alcoholic that was abusing boys that visited his home both sexually and physically. I have no respect for anyone who hurts a child.
These people are evil. They are a cultist group and I no longer believe in God after witnessing the kind of treatment they give to those who don’t ‘adhere to God’s call’. If that was God then I want no part of him or his ‘ministry’. Today I can barely manage because of the mental damage that IHOP inflicted on me, this coming personally from someone who was forced to be a member for three years, I would never suggest them to anyone. STAY AWAY FROM THEM. They’re not worth your money or your time!
Dear Anonymous
My Heart is so sad for you , What an awful time you have had at the hands of these ‘So called Christians’ . They are NOT at all like the True Jesus of the Bible or of any ‘ Real Christian’ They are imposters and have shown you a very bad example.
God loves you very much and He will wipe every tear from your eyes . I know it will be more than a little difficult for you to trust again but honestly there are true Christians out there who will love and cherish you for the very special person you are. So beloved of God ( you have no idea how much this is true of you) .
Please try not to give up on God because you have been abused at the hands of people who are really satan’s workers, not the Lord’s people at all , who could never have treated you in such a manner.
Oh precious child you are so loved , don’t forget it, Thank you so much for your warning , how Great to stand up for God’s Truth , that is what He requires of us , and you have passed the test with flying colours.
Your Sister in Christ
Ailsa
Dear Daniel:
You wrote: “Why is Simon’s name changed to PETER (PETRAS) and then NEXT thing Jesus says is, “upon this PETRA/ROCK” , I will build my church? Coincidence?”
Jesus was commending Simon for speaking the truth about who He was, from hearing from Heaven. Upon this “Rock” or foundation of truth of the Eternal Word of God, is the church built. It is not a person. That is the error that the Catholic Church made. They believe that Peter was the first “Pope” — you do know that? Jesus was saying that upon this “Rock of Truth” is the church built, the same Eternal Truth of God’s Word that revealed to Simon who Jesus was.
That is the same rock of truth that you and I are attempting to figure out with IHOP. My dire concern there is that the foundational doctrines of IHOP are NOT based upon the Rock of God’s TRUTH in His Word.
Notice that when Peter or Paul or John wrote the infallible New Testament, they ALWAYS referred back to the Old Testament for confirmation. This is part of how you test the spirits and test your doctrines to see if they are on the ROCK of TRUTH of WHO GOD IS.
Finally, you need to understand that Paul warned against people becoming hermits and monks.
Being a hermit or removing yourself from the world altogether is condemned in Scripture. The whole idea of being a monk… or monasticism — is condemned in Scripture..
“I did not say that you should not eat a meal with sinners or the unsaved of the world… in order to do that, you would have to remove yourself from the world altogether. What I said was that you should not eat a meal with a fellow believer who is in sin.”
(Daniel, this is my paraphrase from Corinthians, I did not look it up.) But what Paul is saying here is that we are to be “salt and light” to the unsaved worldly culture — and engage them as we are given opportunity to preach the Word — and then Paul warns that we are never to “remove oneself from the world altogether”. There is no spiritual benefit in removing ourselves from the world with all its sin and temptation if our faith is so weak that we cannot function as Christians in this fallen world!
This is part of the argument against false asceticism in the Bible. Many Christians in IHOP believe in a false asceticism — 24/7 prayer formulas for example — that remove them and their personal witness from the world because they think they are doing a better or more important thing by 24/7 prayer in a cloistered environment.
Jesus is saying in the Bible that is NOT more spiritual to remove yourself from the world or to have a touch not, see not attitude. If Jesus is Jesus, then He gives us power on the INSIDE OF OUR SOULS to help us refrain from sin.
But note that the Pagans and unbelievers of the world do believe that removing yourself from the world and becoming a hermit seems more “spiritual”. Jesus NEVER did this. The disciples NEVER removed themselves from the world. Their faith was on display constantly and in action.
This does not mean of course that there is not a time or a season for intercessory prayer. It is just not to be a formula of 24/7 prayer outside God’s call on your life or my life. God warns us against praying without being in His will. We can pray in error, or pray amiss, as we are warned in the Bible, and the fruit of it is that God will not answer prayers that are prayed amiss.
This is the problem with the Old Testament idea of 24/7 prayer as if God “needs” us to be praying this way! He doesn’t “need” it!
What He wants is us to pray in accordance with His Will, which is a different matter altogether!
Think about it.
Dear Benjam Rowllech:
I am all too familiar with the destruction caused by Cindy Jacobs false prophetic spirit, are you? I have had a first hand witness to the devastated faith of the slain sheep that listened to her demonic prophecies.
FYI, Daniel of the Bible never commanded, or bound, or addressed “territorial spirits”. He prayed for understanding and truth and this is why Gabriel came to him. No where in Scripture are we told to take on or “bind principalities”. Jesus never demonstrated this as a prayer model. Neither did the Disciples.
But IHOPers and YWAMers are allowed to do what is not done in scripture? This betrays a terrible misunderstanding of the spiritual world.
IHOP and YWAM make spiritual warfare out to be a magical, secretive witchcraft. This is exactly what Jesus warns against in Revelation 2, Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, teaches the “so called deep things of Satan” instead of preaching the Gospel of repentance of sin.
Cindy Jacobs prophesies in a familiar spirit that usually flatters the hearers of her “words”. Look up her phony prophecies over Jill Austin, see how they all FAILED and how Jill died believing them earlier this year. Of course, Jill came under that same demonic deluding spirit, incidently the same spirit that the Lord allowed Jezebel’s husband the wicked King Ahab to believe.
Men need to be very much on guard against false prophets. This is because the Lord considered King Ahab the most evil king at that time in his “toleration” of Jezebel’s false prophets, her sexually perverted spiritual ceremonies, and her desire to rob God’s true people of their inheritance. Revelation 2:20 is about God warning the Church NOT BE LIKE AHAB, who “tolerated” Jezebel’s horrific teachings and counterfeits and perversions.
Of course, God sent a deluding false prophetic spirit to Ahab. Just as He promised to send a delusion to those Christians who no longer believe in the truth… like the false prophets Bob Jones/Todd Bentley/Bill Hamon/Rick Joyner/Chuck Pierce/Cindy Jacobs.
I pray for Jacob’s soul and for the salvation of her family. She is very dangerous because she fell in with Wagner and Hamon a long time ago. Lord I DO ASK DELIVERANCE FOR CINDY JACOBS and that you spare her Jill Austin’s horrible death as a Jezebel.
Benjamin R:
Please don’t bore us to death with a phony criticism that I “hate” the people at IHOP or YWAM or the NAR.
I love them. I pray for them. I intercede for them DAILY and have been for years. I was one of them, so I know exactly how messed up they are and why their lives bear no fruit for the Kingdom.
But I will say that the deluded hordes that Satan is attempting to produce out of these movements will become the bulwark for the counterfeit Antichrist “one world theocracy”… because if they cannot discern true from false prophets now, HOW will they discern THE False Prophet who will usher in the AntiChrist?
They won’t. Bill Hamon especially is that Frog Spirit of the False Prophet. So deluded, that man. It is the crime of Eternity that we are witnessing here, Benjamin. DO YOUR RESEARCH ON WHAT THESE PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVE and you will be as revolted in your spirit as I am, as Sad Parent is, as NOLR History is, as Miriam is.
“Annonymous’s” testimony of how they lost their faith in God due to IHOP, is a common thread in the lives of the scattered and slain sheep of this NAR movement, Ben.
That is the point of all false prophecy, by the way. Unbelief in God. Lord, restore to Annonymous a sweet, childlike faith in You and Your Goodness, Lord God!
Benjam Rowllech,
Let me get this straight: You’re saying that you think I, sadparent, “took some stupid advice FROM an immature IHOPer TO my child” …and then I, sadparent, have “let it flourish into a hideous tree of bitterness”???
Ben, I didn’t take any “stupid advice from an IHOPper”. You got your story wrong, Ben.
I told my kid I thought IHOP might be a cult.
HE TOLD an IHOP LEADER – HIGH atop the IHOP totem pole what I said
The IHOP LEADER counseled him to “cut off all communiqué with mama” “for 1 year at least”
THAT was in 9-2007…so we are now on TWO years of ZERO communiqué. ZERO.
Ben, I USED to be very bitter against IHOP but was reminded that I’m not battling flesh and blood. I feel sorry for Mike Bickle, Allen Hood and the other Contemplative teachers – knowing that they will indeed occur a stricter judgment in lieu of the fact that they’re leading so many into occult practices – and Ben, Contemplative prayer has such a spiritual sound to its name… but all it is, is transcendental meditation. And TM is absolutely an OCCULT practice.
SP
Anonymous,
I too have felt aftermath pain derived from IHOP. The minds of its followers so messed up, people get hurt, beat up, dumped out, told it’s their fault… but then the really sad part is that it’s all being done in the name of Jesus – so then people get a bad taste in their mouth about Christianity.
THIS BLOG AUTHOR has my permission to FWD my personal e-mail address to you – since I’d really like to speak with you 1 on 1. I do not blame you for feeling the way you do.
SP
Dear sadparent:
I know what it is like to be “cut off” by people who you love who are under NAR counterfeit demonization. Not by my own son, but it does hurt.
Ask the Lord, SP, who is the one who gives us fresh promise every morning, what, if anything you can do to reconcile with your boy.
The Lord has promised me that if I do certain things I am called to do in faith in my life, that He will honor my intercession for my own loved ones in the NAR cult.
Cry out for your son, I know you do — but cry out as Jeremiah did on the Temple Porch as the approaching army of Babylon came to destroy the city.
Cry out for God to spare him and anyone else caught up with your son in IHOP.
The Lord God WILL SPARE His own, even as the hoofbeats of the Babylonian horses are coming to trample and destroy.
I pray that the Lord will turn this tragedy into a victory for you. Pray that He shows you your part in intercession or righteous action in faith for the sake of your son.
I know I don’t have to say this, but your son, along with the other idolators of the Joel 2 AntiChrist Army of the NAR, are headed for taking the mark of the beast. That is how serious this fight against false prophets of IHOP is.
Pray like Jeremiah that God will SPARE him.
Lord God — I ask anyone who reads this will agree with me in prayer for Sad Parent’s son — Lord — Spare this man. Spare him from deception! Forgive him his sin of arrogance and disobedience to Your Word concerning his mom! Spare him and forgive him his sin of cavorting with proven false teachers and liars of a counterfeit, demonized Christianity! Lord, show this young man the truth, let YOUR name be written across his forehead Lord! Spare, Lord God Spare! Be balm unto SadParent’s soul, too, Lord God. Comfort her, Comforter! Give her fresh vision to see, to pray and to stand for you so that many will be spared eternal Hell, Lord God. Use this wound to bring Your Peace Lord God. Help SadParent, Lord. Let her son not be lost, but snatch him from the Fire Lord God. AMEN.
Ailsa, ArisemyLove,
Thank you for your condolences but I feel that no amount of words that any Christian or anything like them has every told me can undo what’s been done. The only thing that can ever bring light to the injustice that IHOP is inflicting on children is for people to take action.
I am living proof of the action that was never taken.
I respect your beliefs and your faith but at this time I feel that Christianity is not, and may not ever be, right for me at this point in time. This is not to say every Christian is what IHOP presents but I have never met a loving, understanding or Christlike person in my life therefore I have no reason to trust what so many people claim to be the truth.
I am sickened by the thought that they are still operating. How many more children are suffering like I was suffering? What’s being done to liberate them? Nothing. These children are forced by their parents to conform to a way of life imposed on them, not chosen by them, to the point of their own perspective being warped. A child’s heart and mind is a very fragile thing. They don’t even realize they’re part of a cultist group.
As for the bible itself;
The Bible was written by man, therefore it is a work of man, even if ‘man’ heard God’s voice. You can assume through that that each person interpreted this differently and it was all written according to the time period it was written for. I do agree with some concepts that the Bible presents, mostly to do with love and acceptance, but I do not agree with how literally scripture is often taken. IHOP is a place that takes it too many steps too far.
The thing that I find most appalling about what most Christians do (and what keeps me away from the faith itself) is the judgement they seem to think they’re worthy of passing on people with addictions, people who are homosexual or people that are not Christian and do not want to be Christian.
Jesus did not condemn the addicted, the insane or the prostitute, he helped them, he tried to save them without forcing his way of life directly onto them. Jesus was not judgemental towards the hurt, abused or the abandoned. He welcomed them with open arms. I am not suggesting that this conflict should not be brought to light but should be handled differently. Trying to force someone into what you believe is never right and should not be condoned. I know there is a desperate need among most ‘Christians’ to save others but they need to realize that if someone truly feels drawn to ‘God’ or whatever higher power out there they’ll come to him themselves. Jesus was contagious because of how he portrayed what Christians were meant to be like, not because he forced anyone to do anything, he acted and because of his actions he grew a following that he did not seek to steal from, hurt or destroy. Humans inherently all share one thing. Greed. Whether it be for money, power or attention it’s still not right.
I encourage people to accept everyone regardless of their doctrine or creed. Religion is a dangerous thing, it kills, it destroys, it controls and obliterates. Faith, however, is entirely different. If one has faith, no matter what it may be in, they can accomplish what they set out to do.
In spite of all this, IHOP was the exact opposite, I can’t look at the doors of a church without grimacing or thinking of how misled their sheep are. Humans are flawed, it’s in our nature, even though we often try to cover it up by using religion, psychology or our own personal problems to excuse it. IHOP turns a blind eye to those who truly need their help and pushes them out into the cold. My heart is still bitter, torn and hurt from everything that was done to me, most of what happened has even gone unsaid here, but I want nothing more to do with IHOP or the Church. I do not feel ‘God’s call’ on my life and I never have. I don’t want lipservice, I don’t want to see preaching out on the street, I don’t want to see people trying to impose themselves onto others. I want to see action, proper action taken, without the bias of opinion. I want to see people love fearlessly and that love be what draws others in.
So in other words. Walk the walk if you’re going to talk the talk.
First off:
Define Christianity. How does one become a Christian or saved?
Answer: Most, PROTESTANTS will at least say, “if they believe in their hearts and profess with their lips that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior (and baptism). And if they believe in the Trinity.
Explanation: Yes, Catholics do believe this in their hearts, PROFESS this with their lips (Apostles and Nicene Creed during every Sunday Service).
Therefore, Catholics ARE Christians. In fact, when did the first earliest Christians call themselves Catholic?
In 107 AD, St. Ignatius of Antioch (the same Church of Antioch in the BIBLE (ACTS 11:26) “and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. ”
So, Christianity started first century, and so did Catholicism. The Nicene Creed, which almost all Christian denominations use today, was first adopted in 325 AD, and therefore, whatever Christian History that all protestant denoninations have, so do Catholics. You cannot deny the Catholic history, culture, and connection to Christianity in the SAME WAY we cannot deny the extent of Jewish culture and LAW in Christianity (old testament).
The reformation was in the sixteenth century, and those may be called Protestant denominations/protesters of the Roman Catholic Church. However, YOUR denomination is most likely NOT EVEN one of those original protesting denominations. Are you part of the Lutheran Church? The Church of England? THe Episcopal Church? Probably not. Those denominations are more CLOSER to Catholicism than you probably even know. You are probably part of an American-born Great Awakening denomination like the Baptist Church, Presbyterian church, etc. So YOUR “denomination” is a PROTESTER OF the PROTESTANTS, therefore, a watered down “cult”? of the Church? Is that too harsh to say? Probably, but you know what Mormon’s think? That the Church of Christ was abandoned after the Acts of the Apostle and finally “recovered” in the 1800s. Quite Ironically, you are probably thinking the same about your own Church and doctrine?
Listen here, the first 1600 YEARS of whatever denomination you are PART OF , is a Catholic history, and to say that Catholics are not Christian is to say that Christianity began in 1600. Quite ignorant, and not that factual is it?
Thirdly,
Catholics do not view the Pope as the one mediator between God and man on Earth. The Pope is the REPRESENTATIVE of the ONE MEDIATOR between God and man on Earth, JESUS.
Peter himself called himself a PRESBYTER in the Book of Peter. The role of PRESBYTER (PRIEST) is to be the representative of the ONE MEDIATOR betwen God and man on Earth (JESUS).
I’m sure YOUR denomination has a head leader? Of course they do. In fact, most denominations have some sort of “bishop” hierarchy and “elders, or senior pastor”. The pope is likewise: he is the LEADER of the Church. We call him the head of the church as YOU would call a husband, the head of the family, or leader of the family. Catholics read the Scripture too and know that JESUS is the head of the Church and we are ALL the BODY. Don’t take things out of context.
Now that I’ve refuted many of your, quite honestly, TYPICAL and IGNORANT views of Catholicism, may I continue with your next post?
Study yourself approved.
Anonamous,
That is a very accustitory story/testamony. Why have you not gone for legal advice against them if this is true? What years were you there?
ARISEMYLOVE,
let me summarize what you said in the next post:
1. The verse “You are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church” needs further more complicated off-context interpretation? Really? The way you explained is in other words, you own interpretation and butchering of what Jesus meant. I’ve asked MANY other Protestant Christians about that verse and none have given such a “beat-around-the-bush” interpretation as you.
Jesus built his Church on Peter, because God’s Spirit was with Peter and throughout the Acts of the Apostles. It is not Peter who did it, but the HOLY SPIRIT guiding Peter that is the ROCK upon whom Jesus built his Church. In the same way, with the LAYING ON OF HANDS, in the bible, elders would pass on this Apostolic Succession.
Please do not interpret in such an indirect way that makes no sense with why in the WORLD Jesus said,
YOU ARE PETRAS, and UPON THIS PETRA, I will build my Church.
2. YOu said that monasticism is condemned in Scripture.
haha, wow. Have you taken ANY Christian Tradition or Scripture classes before?
MONASTICISM did not start with Christianity or Catholics! John the Baptist was an ascetic! an ESSENE! Which is one of the Jewish religious group (not Pharisees or Sadducee) congregated in communal life dedicated to asceticism, voluntary poverty, and abstinence from worldly pleasures! (Monasticism?) They were often apocalptic visionaries who withdrew from general society (aka lived in wilderness!)
Monasticism condemned by Scripture you say?
Do you not even read the Old Testament? Do you not know that even JESUS went into the DESERT(WILDERNESS) to fast for 40 days? Do you not know that JESUS even went away by HIMSELF to pray? (it’s in the Bible).
Please respond to my older post that I keep bringing up so that you’d address:
SO, “Our job is to PREACH THE WORD UNADORNED TO THE LOST, not hide from the world by prayer.” —BY ARISEMYLOVE
OUR JOB IS TO WITNESS and give personal TESTIMONY ” We are to be UNIFIED but we are all different parts of a body. Some parts of the body pray (IHOP), some go out into missions (YWAM), some teach in schools (Catholics and Christian schools), and some “test” the spirit of some Christian movements (you).
You know what IHOP-led TEEN MINISTRIES and such do?
Exactly what you said: “OUR JOB IS TO WITNESS and give personal TESTIMONY of how our lives are changed by the blood of Jesus.”
Different speakers go up on stage infront of 300-500 teens and share their testimony and eventually this draws MANY MANY teens to RADICAL Christianity. A relationship with Christ that they are NOT afraid to have in front of their friends or back home. Each speaker’s personal TESTIMONY can affect the students and whether you think the IHOP “doctrine” is false or off, they’re doing a lot more of PERSONAL TESTIMONY and CHANGING LIVES by the BLOOD OF JESUS than your IHOP-slandering comments.
You say, “Our job is to PREACH THE WORD UNADORNED TO THE LOST”, and yet you are condemning YWAM?
How many times a year do you “go out and PREACH the Word unadorned to the LOST?” DO you go to the hundreds and thousands of unreached areas throughout the world and preach? Or are you just sitting behind a computer blogging and commenting offensively about the people (YWAM) who actually do?
Sure, you can disagree with some of the “doctrines” of IHOP. That’s pretty much why there are thousands of new denominations being born in America every year. But as you said, what is the fruit?
Apparently, the fruit from many people of IHOP and YWAM are Christian re-born teens and young people, more and more young people living their faith and not just talking it. More and more teens repenting and committing their lives to Jesus. I’ve been to dozens of Church retreats (not just one church) and I have yet to see a retreat that leaves a LASTING imprint on one’s heart as IHOP’s teen ministry was. Same with YWAM. They are not the “perfect” ministries but they are excellent ones that GOD CAN use. will use. has used. is using.
Hey guys,
Don’t mean to detour this thread but to all the IHOPpers on here, I’ve got a question.
“An evil generation seeks after signs and wonders..”
right? Like..Jesus said that, right?
So explain to me the virtue of providing a ’signs and wonders’ class/camp for children – or did I get it wrong?
SP
Regarding “Peter” and “rock” in the Matthew 16:18 verse, it’s important to note that these are two different words from the Greek. “Peter” is Strong’s 4074, while “rock” is 4073. From Strongest Strong’s Exhaustive concordance:
4074 – Petros: Peter; this has the designative meaning “rock” or “individual stone”
4073 – petra: rock, bedrock, rocky crag; or other rock formation, in contrast to individual stones
So, then:
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter [an individual stone], and on this rock [bedrock {Christ, who is the Word}] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. [Matt 16:17-18]
The Apostle Paul writes:
20built on the foundation [2310 ‘foundation’] of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone [204 ‘cornerstone’, an essential stone in the construction of a building: - chief corner]. [Eph 2:20]
In the context above, it is clear that Paul is referring to the New Testament apostles and prophets as the foundation while Jesus is the cornerstone. [As an important aside: once a foundation is laid another foundation cannot be added to it. My point is that the supposed modern day ‘Apostles’ and ‘Prophets’ who are demanding submission to them are self-proclaimed and not God-ordained.]
Further, Peter himself quoting Isaiah 28:16:
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone [204], and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” [1 Peter 2:6]
Peter recognizes Christ as the cornerstone, the bedrock, of our faith.
If we need more, here’s a passage in Daniel about Nebuchadnezzar’s dream:
34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. [Dan 2:34-35]
Daniel then interprets the dream:
44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces… [Dan 2:44-45]
Truthbeknown you wrote on august 20:
Deuteronomy 29:29 explains that the secret things belong to God not to us and that He has already revealed what we need to know.
Moses states in a prophetic word the the Israelites that another would come that would replace him and we are to listen to him. When Jesus was on the mount of figuration God responded by, “This is my Son, LISTEN TO HIM!” Can someone show me this new secret of 24/7 prayer from scripture? Did Jesus teach us to do this? and why would God, who is the Same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow, change what He has already established in His Word by changing Christianity as we know it today in one generation.
I am going to quote a couple of scriptures that say the opposite of the scriptures you quoted.
John 5:39,40
39]You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40]But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
The Scibes and Pharisee’s were great at quoting scriptures and accussing Jesus of being posessed with the devil.
THEY DID NOT KNOW OR RECOGNIZE THE LORD WHEN HE STOOD BEFORE THEM!
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
God wants us to seek Him, spend time with Him, and search out the mysteries of the kingdom!
Moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible, not because he had scripture but because he had a relationship with God.
Saul of tarsus knew the word better that any, yet he murdered christians …
Paul however, after he had a face to face with Jesus , then disappeared for 3 years and didn’t have any contact with any of the other apostles, (HMMMM,sounds like Paul was a little “monkish” for a season) for he was taught by the Lord…
Galatians 1:12-18
12] For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13] For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14] And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16] to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17] nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18] Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19] But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
If you spend as much time with the Lord as you do in the word, you would find youself a little more balanced!!!
Consider this understanding:
Ecclesiastes 7:18 (NAS)
18] It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them.
Look at these two scriptures.-
Proverbs 26:4,5
4]Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5]Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Two scriptures, one right after the other that say exactly the opposite.
The balance here, as in all scripture is:
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
How the Holy Spirit leds you in each circumstance of life determines what is the right course of action … Wisdom is known by Her children!
Not turning aside to the right or the left, but balanced in the Word and the Spirit!
Walking in the fear of The Lord, The Spirit of the Fear of The Lord, will bring about this balance.
He who has ears, let him hear!
The Pharisees were scripturally correct when they said:
Moses said this woman should be stoned to death …
But as He waited, The Spirit said, who among you that is without sin, cast the first stone.
I didn’t have time to go through all of this. However, AML made a point that a Christian should not intercede 24/7, but should also be evangelizing. I have to say, this is well spoken.
The apostles “gave themselves to continual prayer AND to the ministry of the word.” They were sent out for ministry but also prayed continually. There’s balance there folks.
As far as some recent comments – did Peter or did he not build the church on the Day of Pentecost? Were not 3,000 souls saved?
Sad Parent:
You said -
“An evil generation seeks after signs and wonders..”
right? Like..Jesus said that, right?
As a believer, Jesus said these signs will follow you!
15]And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16]He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17]And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18] they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
I have followed what you have been saying on this site. I am sorry that your son has not contacted you for 10 month’s.
I believe you should honor your mother and father.
Having said that, I have to ask you a question:
Are you baptised in the Holy Spirit?
SAD PARENT,
You said:
““An evil generation seeks after signs and wonders..”
right? Like..Jesus said that, right?
So explain to me the virtue of providing a ’signs and wonders’ class/camp for children – or did I get it wrong?
SP”
Well
I give contemplate on this and why you seem to reject a charismatic Christian life?
“And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well” Mark 16:17-18
This generation does not seek signs and wonders, no they accompany those who believe!
And Jesus said we would do even greater things because of the Holy Spirit in us.
Keep reading the chapter and you’ll see:
“Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it” (Mark 16:20)
You wanna know how many healings I saw at the camp?
You wanna know how many people spoke in TONGUES at the camp?
I didn’t seek those signs, they accompanied us as we believed.
Daniel:
Monasticism is condemned in the bible when it is a false asceticism that “removes one from the world altogether”.
John the Baptist was an ascetic, true, but he was also the final prophet in the line of Old Testament Prophets and we who are now in the dispensation of Pentecost are not to imitate things of the Old Covenant. We have a “better thing” than the Old Testament Prophets — and we have what those OT Prophets longed for “but did not live to see”… the FREE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT upon us.
IHOP/YWAM and the NAR as well as Mormons and other cultic fake Christian groups mush up in their teachings the differences between living under the Old Testament and living under the New Covenant.
The danger os Dominionism comes out of this blending and mish mashing of the Old Covenant and the New and it is what allows IHOP leaders to proclaim that they will have to kill Christians who oppose them in the future. Lou Engle, Rick Joyner and others have already said this and this is the same lying spirit of Mormonism that caused Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to teach that they had the right to kill anyone who left the Mormon church “in order to atone for their sin.”
I am bored by Catholic arguments mostly because they never held any sway over me personally. My concern is for the charismatic church, where so much deception arises because they do not hold to the dictates and prescriptions of the Word.
In any case, beware teachings that do not delineate Old and New Covenants. On the Catholic side, don’t forget that the Catholics consider themselves the continuation of the Levite priesthood, an enormous error, as there is no need for the Old Testament priests in the age of Pentecost.
IWTT,
Legal action may be in the works now but I did wait because I was unsure how to go about it. I wish to remain anonymous therefore I will only tell you that I was there in 05, 06 and 07. I have no reason to lie. I want people to know the truth. I can prove everything that was done to me, I have names, contacts and close friends that witnessed it. I was enrolled in two programs while there.
Most of leadership knew and would still be able to recall exactly who I am. I’m not afraid to stand up for what I believe is right just like what you believe is right. Or would you rather justify child abuse? I am not afraid to say they are a self absorbed cultist group that abuses children, some physically, most verbally and a few sexually. You cannot tell me that is right.
Daniel,
While I can understand some of your defensive attitude you should meet anger and accusations with grace not more anger. That never solves anything. Christians can argue all day and night and not waver on their beliefs. I suggest putting your energy into something more constructive.
Dear Annonymous:
I think you should sue IHOP to high heaven, pardon the pun, AFTER you have sought other remedies. On that same line, what would constitute a resolution for you? Public apology, financial help, jail time? If you have an ounce left of faith in you towards a good God, pray about that! And bless you.
P.S. The IHOPers and YWAMers and NARbots were involved with a lawsuit a few years ago that mentioned “brainwashing” by the false prophets of IHOP movement — Cindy Jacobs, JIm Goll, Che Ahn, Jill Austion, bennie Hinn’s wife, etc., with the pastor there who was molesting men.
Look up the Gateway and Harvest Rock church. I don’t think this case went to court but i know Harvest Rock was sued big time and “brainwashing” was part of the sexual abuse claims.
Just for the record, I had nothing to do with that church or its meltdown in 2004, but two years later the Lord gave me a word and a vision that said that “Just as the Gateway church was “attacked” by false prophets who inculcated sexual immorality in the pastor (this is what the spirit of false prophecy Jezebel always teaches) your own church will be attacked by false prophets…”
My investigation of what happened at that small church meltdown is what got me out of the Apostolic Prophetic Cult of IHOP/YWAM/NAR, so I INVITE scrutiny and common sense appraisal of their insanity by Legal authorities.
Just imagine if the Mormons had been really held up on child abuse and polygamy issues before the Law back when Smith was alive… how many souls would have been saved from Hell by this time?
In other words, annonymous, go after these false Christians. Go after them with their own Bible and with the full force of the law as you can. You are not held to any Biblical standard against suing another brother or sister in court, because these people are NOT Christians.
ARISEMYLOVE,
You are not bored with Catholic arguments, you are just ignorant of them and hard-hearted to them. You close your heart to the arguments and wallow in your own narrow perspective. Hence you ignore all my arguments and go on about Dominion and random biased opinions about the Catholicism unrelated to my post.
Please tell me at what point you think the Catholic Church went wrong? Was it at Pentecost? Was it in 500 AD when the holy Mary of Mother of God thing kicked in? Was it 300 AD-ish when Constantine was around and Hellenization period? Was it in the Great Schism? Or Reformation?
What other Christian Church was there till then? And if you think it went wrong in 1600 in the Reformation, then, most of the things that you have said about the Church were around long before that time.
The Mormon Church claims the Church “DIED” after the last apostles and was only reborn, in the 1800s by Joseph Smith.
You are thinking like-wise. Sort of , “cult-like”, no?
Much of your argument is consisted of your own opinions and judgments on groups and doctrines, but let’s say Your argument on dominionism is valid in some ways. Either way you misrepresent what IHOP/YWAM teach, and therefore, you are accusing them wrongly.
Anonymous,
I am defending a group, you are the one being, destructive to the Body of Christ by slandering the whole organization based on your own personal experience. On average, most religious organizations have a 2-5% rate of ministers sexually abusing children (Catholic Churchs, Protestant Churchs, etc). The general public has double that rate.
However, I don’t discount or condemn the whole Christianity because of these statistics, do I?
God bless you all,
I will pray for you, please pray for me,
for God loves us as his children and wants the best for us.
Arisemylove,
You said: The danger os Dominionism comes out of this blending and mish mashing of the Old Covenant and the New and it is what allows IHOP leaders to proclaim that they will have to kill Christians who oppose them in the future. Lou Engle, Rick Joyner and others have already said this and this is the same lying spirit of Mormonism that caused Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to teach that they had the right to kill anyone who left the Mormon church “in order to atone for their sin.”
Where did you hear that Rick Joyner said that they will kill Christians? do you have a source on that? I’d be interesting in any info you have on that!
Thanks
Truthspeaker
To Ed and Daniel,
Let’s put this puppy to rest guys. Yes. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1981. Went to a charismatic church, the whole 9 yards. I still have that baptism guys and I still have my Bible and He still gives discernment, and wisdom liberally to all who ask.
Now let’s look at what Jesus said about ‘an evil generation seeking after signs and wonders’. In the NT, those people were requesting a sign or a wonder. On the other hand though, do you guys seriously believe that IF those signs and wonders do NOT follow someone, that they are NOT a believer??? Or that they’re just practicing “religiosity” by “only” attending church???
You can do all the signs and wonders in the world but without Jesus’ love, they’re TOTALLY meaningless. Wow. I hope you guys don’t drink poison or handle snakes! (No, I realize you don’t – but see the point I’m making?)
Daniel, I don’t reject a charismatic Christian lifestyle as you said. I reject outright heresy being taught as truth. Contemplative Prayer is NOT biblical. Yes, we’re to meditate ON God’s word – not use God’s word TO meditate. BIG difference. IHOP is not going to “cause” Jesus to return any faster – unless you call ‘being a part of the great falling away’ making Him come faster, since the great falling away will happen before He returns.
Ed, September marks TWO YEARS of total silence on the part of my IHOP son – who believes he is “following God” which includes not speaking to his mother? I’ll never stop loving him – that’s about all I can say.
SP
p.s. Daniel, I’ll tell you the same thing I told my son: can we not agree to disagree?
Meaning, can’t we talk without the anger?
SP
Sad Parent:
How can I help with your son? Do you want me to go there and talk to him. What’s his name?
Daniel, honey,
No actually I am bored by Catholic arguments. They are boring to me because the most dangerous Catholics I know are now charismatic Catholics; this is why my focus is on the charismatic church.
Shoe-horning some idiotic Mormon idea into your “critique” about me — about when the Mormons thought the church died — equally makes no sense.
Your apologetics have devolved into some weird illogic, Daniel.
Jesus Christ tells us that we are to “give every man an answer for the faith within them”…
That we are to be wielders of the “Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God” with dexterity and truth and love and the power of the Gospel to save.
You have not demonstrated this at all. You go on attack mode instead of defending the indefensible doctrines of IHOP/the NAR.
So I’ll give you a few more questions to answer.
1. How do you discern true teaching from false teaching in the Christian church?
2. How do you discern or test the spirits of false prophets or false teachers, Daniel?
Attack dog tactics are equally boring, Daniel. Please refrain. Your lack of concern for annonymous is telling. I remain appalled when I hear of those slain sheep of your beloved IHOP, Daniel. Citing statistics on “abuse in the church” doesn’t make me feel any better about what happened to annonymous, either.
Little Daniel — play the man in your faith and grow up. The Lord God Jesus Christ is not pleased with the deceptions of IHOP — and you know it.
Arisemylove,
Thanks very much for the prayerful back-up. I’ll take the agreement of everyone whose prays it.
I agree with Truthspeaker. “Where did you hear that Rick Joyner said that they will kill Christians? do you have a source on that?”
Is that out of “Documentation of the aberrent practices of Kansas City Fellowship” by Ernest Gruen? I know I’ve read that before SOMEwhere… but cannot for the life of me remember where. I only remember that when I first read it, thought, “Wow. (name witheld)would never do that to me.. but would he if he thought he were doing it for the Lord?”
SP
Oh, I knew I’d forget this last thing RE: Comment by Daniel | August 30, 2009
Daniel, what’s with the “RADICAL” thing??? Like it makes the word, ‘Christianity’ sound like …totally boring. No, no, we need to call it RADICAL Christianity. OK, I’ll go with that thought.
Daniel, you know what RADICAL Christianity is? It’s introducing someone to Jesus. There is nothing more radical than that. Forget the “growing in the prophetic”. Forget the ‘word of knowledge’, visions, dreams or “new” revelations (given ONLY to those whom have been deemed “forerunners”). Introduce someone to Jesus and all that stuff takes a back row seat.
Also, Daniel, you said: “How many times a year do you “go out and PREACH the Word unadorned to the LOST?” DO you go to the hundreds and thousands of unreached areas throughout the world and preach? Or are you just sitting behind a computer blogging and commenting offensively about the people (YWAM) who actually do?”
Daniel, I personally do not PREACH too hundreds and thousands.. I share Jesus ONE on ONE every single night of the week. Do you do that, Daniel?
Also, re: “are you just sitting behind a computer blogging…” This is what people do on their “off” time, Daniel…. just like you….
SP
You never did answer my question: what is it, Daniel, that will hasten Christ’s return? What does IHOP teach?
Blessings bach atcha, Daniel!
Sad Parent,
in case you misinterpreted my tone directed at you,
when I post these comments I am not angry or mad.
It is the sort of “argumentative” tone I take on that I am working on. However,
you said: “You can do all the signs and wonders in the world but without Jesus’ love, they’re TOTALLY meaningless”
So, IHOP and YWAM teach of Jesus’ love more than the do of the signs and wonders. I say this from my own experience. They teach how God made us with a desire in our hearts to love him. But we fill our hearts with false desires and try to love other things except the one who created us and loves us conditionally. The reason I came to repentance and all other things to change my life at IHOP was the revelation and ENCOUNTER of Jesus’ love when he appeared to me in a vision, gave me the gift of tongues, and forgiven me for all my past sins and addictions.
This is what I got out of IHOP, as well as my many other friends who shared their own testimony. We were actually educated about some End Time “theories” and many many teenagers came out of the camp with a greater desire to read God’s word. There were kids finishes different books of the Bible each day in the prayer room. Some got to experience and practice evangelism as well.
As for your quote here:
“Yes, we’re to meditate ON God’s word – not use God’s word TO meditate.”
Give me proof that that is what IHOP teaches.
And then give me proof that the Bible literally tells us not to.
Because if you can’t, then this is your own opinion and denominational opinion and maybe has something to do with your faith as well. If we are here trying to enforce other denominational beliefs on others, let us not slander the other one to somehow “raise” our own, ok?
That is quite sad that your son has not spoken to you for 2 years, quite the opposite happened for me and many of my other friends at IHOP. We came back with renewed and humble relationships with our own parents.
Perhaps he thinks that he is following luek 14:26 “If anyone comes to me [Jesus] and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple”
when he ignores you. But the interpretation of that verse is actually to “love less” your parents than Jesus.
I have no idea what the relationship between you and him really is, but perhaps whenever you talk with him, is all you talk about the same “slandering” of the Christian ministry he is a part of? Instead of doing what you suggested yourself, speak/do “JESUS’ LOVE.”
If you just put down the denomination differences or whatever conspiracy notions you have about this “cultish” IHOP, and talk to him as who he really is, a follower of Christ, then perhaps, there would be change.
but then again, I don’t know your situation, this is just a random suggestion, don’t take it if it doesn’t apply.
Daniel: What an abhorrant little upstart you are. Your rambling manner is clearly founded on secondhand opinion which fails to mask your clear lack of a scholarly under-
standing of the bible. Furthermore your attitude is like that of a spoiled child, most unattractive.
Before firing off in all directions, at people with a great deal more grace and learning, I suggest you seek God for a spirit of humility and then spend at least a year in earnest study. Maybe, just maybe you’ll then have something worth saying.
Richard,
I laughed while reading your comment, thanks
I noticed that Your comment has very little to do about the actual things I’ve said, about my own experience at IHOP, or any of my arguments. I am not posting my second-hand opinions because I’m speaking from my own experience and reflection on my studies. Obviously, you are saying that these are my “second-hand opinions” because you cannot believe that a “child” like me can form such opinions and discern at a youthful age.
Ask yourself if, You attacked me and my “rambling” writing style and deterred from the focus of the actual arguments.
Here’s your comment summarized (This is called communication, I summarize what you say, so that YOU know that I READ your comment. Please do the same for me so that I know you are not hopelessly narrow-minded.)
You basically implied this in your comment, yes?:
The belittle-ing of my “lack of studying” and an attempt to destroy my credibility.
I’m speaking from a first hand experience and from a defensive perspective for the IHOP/YWAM ministries. If there’s something incorrect with anything I’ve said, call it out instead of “humbly” calling yourself and those who agree with you people with “more grace and learning” and not even hearing me out.
Quite amusing how you “sad parents” wonder why there’s no communication between the generations, and yet I see there’s an overflow of this prideful “I’m older, you’re younger so shut up” attitude that seems to shut your ears from even listening to what I have to say. Perhaps you can “learn” some things from a younger one.
Or then again, you can’t really teach OLD dogs new tricks, eh?
Maybe that’s why there’s a bunch of slandering going on about IHOP (many younger interns) and YWAM (YOUTH With A Mission). There’s something FISHY when there’s a bunch of YOUNG people leading ministries and following the Lord ?
Old and Wise Arisemylove,
Clearly your years and white hair has made you so wise over the years. What a kind way to talk to younger people.
STILL, you ignore my arguments altogether and reject them blindly. I wonder if you even read them? Don’t worry, as long as the truth is spoken I don’t need you to be convince any time soon.
The reason I don’t go into the arguments about the doctrines about IHOP are because their ministries with teen do not teach those doctrines the way you have described or attributed them.
AND, if you want to go into a debate about doctrines, I am inevitably not on a common ground with you at all about it because you are a narrow-minded conservative Protestant , part of an American-Great-Awakening-born denomination
and I am more on the line with Charismatic Catholicism and Ecumenicism (Unity within the Body of Christ).
If we were to argue doctrines, I would argue first that you are imposing your own watered down American-culture-Church doctrines upon all other denominations.
To answer your questions:
1, 2. Discern, pray, ask God, meditate on the Word, study the Word and what it has to say on false teachings and prophets, read in context, seek spiritual guidance, check the fruits, WITH a humble heart, without bias, and with an open heart so that GOD can speak.
I can quote the bunch of bible verses on false teachers and false teachings but they can be used as proof text for a variety of arguments, no?
I don’t believe you make some LIST based on a specific cult and then attribute it to all ministry organizations. I also don’t believe you slander them with unsupported opinions or generalize the bunch as a demon-crowd.
“The Lord God Jesus Christ is not pleased with the deceptions of IHOP — and you know it.” -ARISEMYLOVE
Haha why do you keep assuming to that everyone shares your same biased opinion? “And I know it?” Good one.
Please experience IHOP or YWAM with an open heart and then discern and tell us what you think.
You’ll have a different opinion about it, and you know it.
Sad Parent,
Are we supposed to hasten Christ’s return?
We were commissioned by Christ himself to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you ALWAYS, to the end of the age”
Was that a trick question or do you think they teach otherwise at IHOP?
I don’t believe the “end times” will happen until all the nations have heard of Jesus and the great falling away happens and the Great Tribulation.
But then again, Do you really even care what this “young one” has to say?
What about you? Can you answer that question for us as well? I would like to hear your perspective.
Thanks
Daniel,
Here’s IHOP’s teachings on contemplative prayer (actually a practice of the ancient catholic mystics) that they had posted on their own website, which has since been removed (gee, I wonder why? Is it because the people in KC are having town hall meetings confronting them on being a cult?) I suggest you take Richard’s advice and take some time to learn and grow in the knowledge of the word. I’ve been saved at least twice as long as you have been alive. It’s study to show yourself approved, not experiences that make us approved.
“Contemplative Prayer
Communing with the Holy Spirit who lives within you
I. Know He Lives Inside of You
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes…
— Ezekiel 36:26–27But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
— John 4:14
II. Pray the Scripture
The goal is to search for the Spirit of Jesus in the Word and have depth, not necessarily length, in understanding the passage. Jesus is the Word (John 1) and we want to know Him, the Truth. In Him is life; it is His Spirit who gives life. The words of Scripture are Spirit and they are life (John 6:63). The entrance of the Word gives light and life (Psalm 119:130). As the Word of God enters your heart, the Spirit of God who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal body (Romans 8:11).Make sure you are searching for the Spirit of Jesus, not just searching for knowledge. Just pray the Scriptures. In simple terms, prayer is turning your heart toward God. In John 5:39, Jesus said to the Pharisees, “You do not have His Word abiding in you … you search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”
Method #1
Choose a short phrase in Scripture.
Begin slowly praying the Scripture in silence.
Focus your prayer toward the Spirit who lives inside you (John 7:38).
Remain on the phrase as long as you feel the Lord’s presence on it. Then move with Him, slowly praying through the passage phrase by phrase.
Method #2
Choose a short story in Scripture.
Read through the story several times silently.
Close your eyes and acknowledge the Spirit who lives in you.
Use your imagination to imagine yourself as one of the story characters or as an onlooker.
Play out the story in your mind applying all five of your senses.
Method #3
We call this “Beholding the Spirit Within.”
The goal is to search for and feel God’s presence inside you, not necessarily to gain more understanding in God’s Word as with the first two methods.
Begin by gently praying a short passage of Scripture in silence while focusing on the indwelling Spirit. The Scripture is used to quiet the clamoring of your soul and draw you to God. It is the connection point, the springboard into the spiritual realm.
Once you feel God’s presence, focus on it in a concentrated way.
You will be able to notice His presence now; He has always been there, but now your attention is on Him within you. The outward senses are quiet and your surface thoughts are gone. You are beginning to be consumed by the Spirit.
In this time, feel the freedom to stay quiet. Silently ask the Spirit to show you a vision, or slowly and silently say to Him, “I love You. I love You. I love You.”
Overcoming Distractions
Your mind will have to be trained in practical ways to not wander and think on other things. To overcome a wandering mind, simply begin thinking on the Scripture you have been meditating on, and focus your prayer to the Spirit within you. The Lord sees your heart as it searches for Him, and He is smiling upon you. You may become sleepy during prayer. To overcome, sit up straight instead of slouching and do not lie down. You can also begin speaking the Scripture you are meditating on under your breath until you feel the drowsiness subside, then return to the silent prayer.
Diligence in Prayer
In time these methods of praying will become easy. You will find the Spirit who lives in you if you search for Him with all your heart, but it will require time and your whole heart.
Keys to Progress
Humility—the high and lofty One dwells with the lowly in heart (Isaiah 57)
Disciplined life of prayer, fasting, giving and loving your enemies (Matthew 6)
Total abandonment in love to Jesus and loving nothing of this life (Matthew 7:14)” (4)
you can read my whole article here http://truthspeaker.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/beware-the-teachings-of-ihop-kc-new-age-contemplative-spirituality/ ,
but as you can see if you actually know the word of God these instructions are NOT BIBLICAL. We are instructed by JESUS himself to pray to “Our Father WHO ART IN HEAVEN”, AND not the HOly Ghost who is within. Everyone with any experience in Christian missions, or extensive ministry will know that contemplative praying opens you up to demonic infestation.
TS
Dear Daniel:
My hair isn’t as white as you would think, it is just that your posts scream an immaturity and lack of authority in the Spirit.
I am a bit freaked out that you do not know of the long tradition in the normal Christian church about the Whore of Babylon in the Bible having to do with Rome.
And if you think that the sin of “Popery” is not a sin; and if you believe that the teachings about the Pope and Peter as a “Presbyter” imply that any one man on earth is ANY CLOSER to God than any other man on earth, you are very very wrong.
We are CO-HEIRS in Christ.
No man is closer to God than another.
It is a crime of the Spirit to think that anyone is any closer to God than anyone else. ALL have sinned and fall short. ALL of our righteousness in ourselves is “as filthy rags”. Including the Pope.
But your spewings, my friend, show me the alliances in Satan’s kingdom between IHOP, YWAM and the Catholic Church. The Lord has already shown many of the alliances in the Spirit between the NAR/IHOP/YWAM and the Mormons. Now all we need are the “gay Christians” and the Moslems ala Rick Warran’s fake “unity” and…
hey! You’ve got the AntiChrist’s one world theocracy.
Thanks Daniel for making the Catholic arm of Satan’s kingdom all the more clear. Yes, all that ritual and elitism and phony popery and lack of the Gospel BORES me.
It bores me because it is devoid of the Power of God.
Sorry, Daniel.
Now, to everyone that has been asking about Rick Joyner and Lou Engle’s call for murder against any true Christian who opposes their Manifest Sons of God doctrines…
search this blog for an article on Joel’s Army and Lou Engle. The remarks are there.
Google around on Rick Joyner’s ‘Civil War in the Church”. Obviously, because Joyner considers himself as surpassing even the Apostle Paul in his own life, and ascribes sinfulness to the Apostle Paul that never existed, that old antichrist Joyner is not hearing from the God of the Bible.
I’ll look it up for you as well presently. Dominionism means that they believe in Old Testament ideas about dealing with people in this New Covenant time period. Make sure you understand the horror of anyone believing that Jesus wants us to take dominion in this present world by physical means….
Daniel, I admire your courage in taking on a bunch of “old codgers!”
But actually, we all must remember that even the apostle John noted maturity differences (I John 1) and insisted on maintaining love.
The reason the white-haired seem to have this “prideful “I’m older, you’re younger so shut up” attitude” is because we ARE older and we’ve seen and experienced more. We are not so easily caught up in movements because we’ve actually been involved in those same things ourselves and realized it was emotional zeal — not substance.
Emotional zeal can carry a person far, and corporate emotional zeal can go even farther. But sadly, it took working through many years in deception to learn that the only zeal that is worth anything at all comes directly from the Holy Spirit Himself. I say “sadly” because it took so long to learn from experience and we (or should I say “I”) were not willing to listen to those older ones who warned us (“me”).
*****
I also applaud your willingness to pop your head above the box and see the entire “holy catholic and apostolic church” (from Nicene creed) both historically and world-wide. In your seeking consensus and unity, please remember that true Christian unity and spiritual fellowship only happens at the points where we agree with the Holy Spirit. Agreeing with each other may be pleasant, but it is empty.
*****
You said to “Please experience IHOP or YWAM with an open heart and then discern and tell us what you think. You’ll have a different opinion about it, and you know it.”
I can only say this: If I had heard their message when I was young, I would have jumped right in with both feet. But now when I hear the message, I have questions that are bibically based. They cause reservations. I stop and ask the Lord for wisdom and direction and am able to listen better because of past experience and because I am not emotionally invested in the message.
IHOP and YWAM say many good things, but I realize that they are not the “end all/be all” that they and their followers think they are. Only Jesus is, and nobody has a corner on His market.
Arisemylove,
I fully intend to do everything I can to the fullest extent I can do it. What I want? I want these people to be out in the open, the truth to be recognized and action taken that will show these ‘leaders’ to the world for what they truly are. Snakes in the grass. I have no ounce of belief left in me, I do not pray and I do not attend church. While I thank you kindly for your advice I feel that praying will not help anything. I won’t hold back when I take action. I feel that the world would be better off without a poisonous organization like them. Thank you for understanding the situation. I have done quite a bit of research myself and I am glad to see someone who is well versed and not rude about this sort of thing.
Daniel,
Yes I did notice you’re defending them but honestly you should take some of your own bible verses to heart and turn the other cheek. I am not slandering. Slandering is twisting the truth. I am telling the truth. Why would I lie? IHOP is a cult group engaged in dark activities that many Christians won’t even recognize or acknowledge. Prove to me that IHOP is good and pure.
Of course I talk out of my own bias of opinion and experiences as does everyone here. No one is standing up for abused children, for the rejected or beaten down. Certainly not you. I see nothing of God in you. You’re like the rest of the blind sheep that graze on whatever your ‘prophets’ and ‘leaders’ tell you and repeat them back like a textbook. If you were really demonstrating that you are indeed a good, pure, pious Christian you wouldn’t be quoting bible verses to high heaven and accuse me of slander. Jesus never did that. Or are you better than that?
Instead you are pointing the finger and closing your eyes and ears ready to tune out whatever conflicts with IHOP’s way of thinking. You need to be listening to all sides, meet anger with patience, meet pain with comfort, meet sorrow with joy. Instead I see someone who is so intent on proving that they’re right that they’re willing to say that child abuse, sexual abuse and physical abuse never happened. Just because the public does it does that make it right for people like you to do it? Don’t use the excuse that we’re only human and make mistakes, that’s what was always told me, it’s old news.
Humans have the capacity to change and that, like your Jesus knew, is what makes us so valuable and irreplaceable. Your hard heart will only lead to bitterness and disappointment. You need to search yourself and do some research before you blindly fling accusations. WWJD, Daniel, your behaviour is only fueling my case and my points against IHOP.
Dear Anonymous:
You have enough faith to believe the truth will win out. I will pray and I know others on this site will pray, too, that the true, loving and Holy God will bless and guide you. He remains the “balm of Gilead” who can heal even a death blow such as this.
Dear SP and TS and others who asked for quotes on how dominionists believe they can kill you and believe they are doing their duty for God.
There are some here, I spied quickly John Wimber’s quote that “those who oppose us will have to die…”
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/lou-engle-of-the-call-calls-for-war/
You have to understand that IHOP and the NAR are built upon lies of Paul Cain and Bob Jones and Bill Hamon –
Cain once said that in the end times, their army would be “invincible, and people would be unable to kill these “Christians” –
The quotes are so insane and bloodthirsty and Hellish that my natural mind wants to forget them. But these are the underlying principles of IHOP and the NAR. They truly believe in the Manifest Sons of God heresies. They get dumber and dumber about the true Word of God as they take on these delusions.
And of course, more fit for killing opposers in the AntiChrist’s army.
You guys know all about “C” STreet, right?
YWAM owns “C” Street.
Do a little research. They want political power, not Christ.
I am amazed at the error and ignorance of those within the various Charismatic camps. I have been a full blown Word of Faith, Holy Ghost, Pentecostal since I was saved. I went to Toronto about a dozen times, starting in 1994, and to many Rodney meetings, and I was at the Pensacola Revival for over 2 years.
Now then, Roman Catholicism is PAGAN IDOLATRY clothed in Christian terms. It is a system of justification by works, not by faith in Christ and His shed blood. It is a murderous, oppressive, hateful, evil, hypocritical religion of devils. It is run like the Mafia. It is in the Bible. Read Revelation 17, and there, you find this idolatrous woman, pretending to be Christ’s Bride, drunk with the blood of the martyrs. That is Rome with here Inquisitions and Crusades.
True Bible believing Christians of the Protestant stripe have always existed. God’s true church has always been here. Roman Catholicism is an APOSTATE CHURCH. God hates it and has promised to destroy it. All those within it are lost, unregenerate and deceived.
The true Christians that handed the baton to the Reformers were known as the Paulicians, Bogomils, Waldenses, Albigenses, Lollards, Bohemians, Donatists, Novatians, Cathari, Baptists, Anabaptists and the like. These groups existed in great numbers all over Europe. One of the Inquisitors of the 12th century, in his report said they were to be found “everywhere” in the “Holy Roman Empire”. Christ’s true, persecuted, slandered, trodden upon faithful ones gave their lives to promote the truth, win souls, and pass the torch.
Now then, to some Biblical facts about Matt hew 16, peter and the Antichrists known as “Popes”.
1- No such title exists in Scripture. Peter is never called a Pope, but an Apostle and a fellow-elder-1Peter 5:2
2- The word for Peter is PETER. The word for Rock is ROCK. They are not the same
3- The word for Peter in the Greek is Petros, the word for Rock is Petra
4- The word Petros means a small stone
5- The word for Petra means a very large Rock
6- Christ made a play on words, and actually distinguished Peter from Himself and the Confession Peter made, which is the Rock upon which the true Church—Christ, not some Italian perverts
7- The early Patristic writers, ALL WITH ONE VOICE, affirm that Peter was NOT the rock, but that Christ was, or that Peter’s confession was
8- The Roman perversion came much later, as the Caesars of Pagan Rome became the Popes of Papal Rome. Same Evil, slightly different titles.
And now, lets lay the Ax to the root:
1- Peter said not he, but that Christ is the rock-1Peter 2:4-8
2- Paul said plainly Christ was the Rock-1Cor 10:1-4
3- Paul said Christ is the head of the church, not some delusional Italian bent on global conquest-Eph 5:23
4- Christ said he was the rock-Matt 21:42-44, Daniel 2
5- Their rock is not our Rock-Deut 32:31
The reason why IHOPers are drawn to Catholicism is ultimately because of seducing spirits and doctrines of devils-1Timothy 4, but also because both IHOPers and Rome are both dominionists. Rome has always taught and believed that the Pope is not only the spiritual head of the church on earth, which is blasphemy, but also that he is the Ruler of the earth as well. They call it Temporal Power. And Rome SURE DID TRY to rule the world during the Dark Ages of 500-1500 AD, which they call the Golden Age. During that time they completely corrupted true Christianity, made church-State alliances, and persecuted and murdered all who stood in their way. Nice.
So since both groups lust for POWER, both are drawn by the same DEVILS into the same doctrinal errors, practices and heresies.
Attention Daniel, the mystics were not great shining lights in the Middle Ages. Most of them were Catholic fruit-loops. While they were serving Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots-Rev 17, and while people were fabricating all kinds of fairy tales about them and their “miracles”, true Christians were leavening all of Europe and Asia Minor with the true Gospel, and they were suffering amazing cruelty from Rome all that time. They all with one voice said that Roman Catholicism was the System of Antichrist. In 1100 AD, the Waldensian believers had a confession of sorts called The Noble Lesson where we find the true descendants of the Apostolic churches:
http://www.reformedreader.org/noblalecon.htm
Mike Bickle, IHOP and those associated with them are mostly true believers, but who are in some serious error, And they are going further and further from the truth and into Paganism—i.e., Roman Catholicism.
Daniel, you have much to learn. Take it from someone who almost became a Catholic Priest, who was raised a strict Catholic. I have been in all the River meetings and movements. I do not discount that God did move at Toronto, through Rodney Howard Browne, and He especially moved at Pensacola, but that was because the focus there was Repentance, faith in Christ, Holiness, forsaking all sin, soulwinning, and true worship in their services. Steve Hill was God’s anointed man for that hour, and God used him mightily. How different Pensacola was from the other places, and how different was Steve’s preaching and teaching from all the foppery out there today.
Daniel, get away from every last vestige of Romanism.
A former Catholic priest once said “the most anti-Catholic book ever written is the Bible.” How true. It exposes Rome for what it is. That is why they burned Bibles and killed those who had copies of it, and killed those who published it, like they killed Wycliffe and Tyndale.
Daniel,
I think you’re more worried about age than anyone else here… so yes, I do care what you have to say.
Nothing has to still happen for Jesus to return other than the great falling away. But Daniel, you’re taking part in that whether you agree or not. Christians all getting sucked into the false teaching of Contemplative Prayer being “of God” when in fact it is not.
Remember, Dan, if it were possible, it would fool even the very elect… i.e. even the very elect would be deceived.
That’s where IHOP comes in. Ask yourself: when, WHEN in the Bible did anyone need to practice a mantra to “get into” a medatative state so they could hear God? When?
SP
P.S.
Geese Margaret Louise, Daniel!
To Arisemylove you wrote:
“I am inevitably not on a common ground with you at all about it because you are a narrow-minded conservative Protestant , part of an American-Great-Awakening-born denomination..”
Go back kiddo and read that 13th chapter out of 1Cor. again! Bubba, you are a sounding gong right now.
SP
Sad Parent,
You never answered my question.
Providential1611, as a former Catholic myself (who btw was not SAVED when I was a catholic!) I want to thank you for your excellent post.
Arisemylove, thank you also for taking the time to dig for that info. I want to invite you to contribute an article to my blog anytime you like! I wrote extensively about the occult timing and messages at the Todd Bently “commissioning” service and about Rick Joyner’s involvement in the Knights of Malta. The KoM are the military arm of the Catholic church, so it’s no surprise to me that Joyner is so into warrior mode and killing people. He’s got that theme is several of his books also. They commissioned Bentley on the KoM holy day eve. (check my blog under Toddy Bentley to see what I wrote)
Also, are you familiar with the Jeremiah Candler story? A little baby whose parents were IHOPers and who was starved to death…. I have several articles about him here:
http://truthspeaker.wordpress.com/category/jeremiah-candler/
Providential1611:
Thanks for expounding on my post from September 5 regarding “Petros” and “petra” (whether this was intentional or not). It was my way subtle way of countering Daniel’s pro-Catholic stance. Apparently, he decided to just gloss over it. Your direct experience within the “river” will, hopefully, give Daniel some pause.
I’m not sure if I agree with your stance on Mike Bickle. I’ve never met the man; but, from what I’ve read, including his book Growing in the Prophetic (which I quote above in conjunction with a quote an eerily similar one from an esoteric book), I find him to be a wolf in sheeps clothing.
I’m also surprised that you mention that you felt God “moved” in Toronto “through” Rodney Howard Browne. From what I’ve read the man just passed on the fire of kundalini. I don’t discount the possibility that God was there for true believers who were caught unaware — despite the deceiving spirits present. Miriam was there; so, she has firsthand experience as well.
Craig understand, that I am vcry well verses in the Scriptures, Theology and the like, and have always been warning of deception and the twisting of Scriptures. This has always gotten me in trouble with other believers and leaders.
If you look at Corinth–Paul never denied most of them were saved, nor did he question that the Gifts of the Spirit were in their midst. He simply regulated them, and taught them how to operate in a loving way, and not selfishly and foolishly.
In their midst were all kinds of errors and even heresies, puffed up teachers, fornicators and the like. They were carnal immature and in pride.
Yet Paul did not dismiss them as all lost and into “kundalini”. They were immature, and selfish with spiritual gifts, which are given by God freely and graciously, not based on our works or maturity.
So if we look carefully at how Paul dealt with the Corinthians, who were bvery much like todays Apostolic/Prophetic Charismatic bunch, we are instructed how to think and respond.
Ral believers, and even leaders can get off into errors, opinions, pseudo-spiritual ideas and even pride, yet still love Christ and trust Him for salvation.
This of course is not good, and we all want to correct them and that situation.
As far as Rodney and Toronto–all I can tell you is that the Holy Spirit was in their midst, and He was there in greater measure and feeling that just any ole church. Lots of Baptists and other anti-Pentecostal believers went to these services and they got Baptized in the Spirit, the Lord laid them out and corrected their false doctrine about the Gifts of the Spirit and the like.
Sure there was Corinthian carnality and immaturity at these events. Sure there were dopey opinions and things uttered. Sure, John Arnott is not a watchman, and seems oblivious to the fact that there is heresy and the like to expose and deal with.
That is what drove me crazy about all these groups. They knew how to experience God, but they were still very ignorant about ALL of what Scripture says and commands us TO DO.
Anyway, there are two kinds of “heretics” and even false prophets, in my opinion–saved ones and lost ones.
In iCor 14, Paul says “if anyone CONSIDERS HIMSELF to be a prophet, or spiritual, oet him acknowledge that what I have written is the word of God”
Notice sometimes, believers just THINK they are spiritual or even prophets, because they are around groups that talk these things, so they are a “me too” type of believers. I think some of these men and women are real believers who THINK they are spiritual or prophets. I also believe others in these camps are FALSE TEACHERS AND PROPHETS, who are in danger of Hell-fire, like Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley.
I am not IN with Hank Hanegraff or most “discernment” of heresy hunter “ministires”. Some of them do research and point out things, but over the years of reading many of their material online and in print, I notice they often EXXAGGERATE the errors of those they are “exposing” to “Help us” see “the truth”. Lying or being dishonest does not help anyone.
Some of these cites also have a bad spirit. When reading, I would notice it was not righteous indignation, but the flesh railing. It would vex me. I would still try and learn whatever that was true from their writings, but their hears was not what I see with Paul, who dealt with serious nonsense in Cornith, and yet did not dismiss everyone as lost heretics.
Look, some of these are Baptist sites, and they condemn all outside their little group as heretics. They are partisan and sectarian. They ddeny the Baptism of the Spirit and tongues, and believe that we are lost BECAUSE we are Pentecostal. They are hard to take seriously, but I have read from them with profit about the things they ARE right about. But they are wrong about many things as well, and I have seen them distort other’s positions to make them look really sinister and buttress their arguments. That is ungodly.
Anyway, I have openly opposed men like Joyner, Bently and others and have been warning leaders and simple believers about them for years. God bless.
I apologize for my many typographical errors. I will post in WORD, do spell check and then post here. All of you here deserve better than what I just put up.
Dear TS:
I read about the Candler child on this blog some months ago. Horror stories like that and recently hearing “anonymous’s” story on this thread are going to be more and more commonplace.
Dear Providential 1611:
It’s great that you have done so much work on the Apostasy of Rome and the Roman Catholic church. Truly appreciate it and I’m sure your lessons were hard won in the spirit.
However, please do not bandy about with such carelessness your praises of Steven Hill or Rodney Howard Browne or any of the Pensacola/Toronto/Lakeland “outpourings”.
These are key players of the NAR. These men are deceivers and will not come to account in the light for their practices nor their teachings.
You need to read the different threads on this blog about them.
Just as I am not as interested in Roman Catholic heresy as I am in the NAR charismatic heresy — you may not have the headspace nor time to truly weigh the NAR as most of us on this blog have done.
So take my warning to heart… do not give a blessing to these men and their teachings that — btw — created a spawning ground for Lakeland and the Elijah List liars — lest you find yourself right back where you started — “tolerating” and giving an open door to the great end time Apostasy.
The NAR will converge with Rome. Many Jezebelic and deluded false prophets of the NAR that I KNOW PERSONALLY already have a “sweet spot” for Rome. It is largely because these false NAR charismatics are unschooled and admire the centuries of Rome’s religiousity. Their NAR is only decades old — Rome at least in their minds, has been around since the first centuries after Christ. It implies “authority” to these NAR/IHOP types.
So Providential1611- do your homework on the teachings and lies of Steven Hill for example. He exaggerated what happened during that Brownsville infection.
truthspeaker,
I read on a blog somewhere that the KOM denied Rick Joyner was in the knights of Malta as to be so you would have to be a Roman catholic and subject to their headquaters which is in Rome.
I am not a Rick Joyner fan and am not defending him.
Daniel,
Just in case you missed it… go back up and read:
{Comment by Providential1611 | September 11, 2009 }
This guy has “eyes wide open” and “soft heart” all rolled into one. Daniel, “pretend” that just prior to reading it, you hear, “Thus saieth the Lord”..
SP
Daniel,
You’re always welcome on my blog:
sadparent.wordpress.com
Thanks
SP
Providential1611:
Rodney Howard Browne was the self-proclaimed “Holy Ghost Bartender.” If that ain’t blasphemy! To assume he, Browne, could dispense these “gifts” ["drunkenness," laughter, etc.] of the Holy Spirit as if he himself was in control. A cursory reading of John 14:15 through 16:16 shows the function of the Holy Spirit and NEVER once are we told we can manipulate Him to our own ends. Further, 1st Corinthians 12:11 makes it VERY clear that the Holy Spirit determines how the gifts are distributed.
I stand by what I said about kundalini. Browne was a shaktipat dispensing kundalini rather than the Holy Spirit. Interestingly, I’ve read online that practitioners of kundalini refer to this “energy” or “spirit” as the “Holy Spirit.”
As for Bickle, he has twisted so much scripture to support his Growing in the Prophetic. Once again, the Holy Spirit determines who receives which spiritual gifts, we do not “learn” them. Further, Bickle built his whole doctrine of 24-hour prayer around faulty exegesis of Acts 15:16 / Amos 9:11 by isolating this one verse. In context, this is referring to the Messiah coming through David’s “tent” or “tabernacle” — meaning lineage — and that through Christ, Gentiles would be saved (Acts 15:17 / Amos 9:12). Just by looking at the context of each of these passages, it is VERY CLEAR this has nothing to do with King David’s makeshift Temple.
Miriam posted an article of mine (back when I blogged under my middle name of Lee) which exposes this error in detail:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/confusion-on-the-davidic-tabernacle-ihop-mike-bickle/#comments
Please note that all the links in the original article are broken. I’ve added the new links on the last comment.
Rodney Howard Browne is a scoundrel who built a so called ministry based on nepotism and put all his family on the payroll! And Craig you are right Rodney gave many people the Kundalini demon including John Arnott of TACF and others! See http://www.newchristian.org.uk/kundalini.html
Is it any coincidence that the manifestations associated with these demonic `Kundalini’ cults are almost identical to those of Toronto? Could it be that the same `spirits’ are at work?
The jerking in Toronto, Brownsville or any other revival place is not a sign of the Holy Spirit but of a Kundalini demon which infiltrated Christianity mainly in North America through Rodney Howard Browne!
The fact is the bible never talks about “jerking” being an attribute of the Holy Spirit but rather it states but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control
THE KEY WORD HERE IS SELF-CONTROL AND WHEN YOU ARE POSSESSED BY A DEMONIC KUNDALINI SPIRIT THERE IS NO CONTROL AND THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG AND AGAINST SCRIPTURE
And anybody who has gotten involved with these Third Wave deceivers will testify that longsuffering and kindness are not demonstrated by the leaders or followers but rather arrogance, pride and intolerance and Bill Johnson is a classical example!
Miriam stated perfectly about Bill Johnson
“Whitewashing is ungodly and is what Jesus blasted the pharisees for. It is bizarre that Johnson and Joyner would blast their critics for being “pharisees” when it is actually they themselves that manifest true ‘pharisee-ical’ tendancies – elitism, spiritual abuse, whitewashing and pretence, lies, hypocrisy and dual standards – behaviour not found in the main people who warn about them.”
http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/endtimespropheticwords/2c5bfbe1486dec3eec6b0511602b4a79
Why do Shamans say words such as Shabba that we hear used so often from the Nar-Nazis? Shabba in Nar-ism means highly spiritual.
Greg,
Rick Joyner personally testified to his being knighted by the KoM. You can still get the tape I think. He said there was a protestant branch and that he is not in the catholic branch. I’m not too sure of the details, but I believe there is a transcript of his testimony online….
Here’s a link to the story:
http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/KnightsOfMaltaAndRickJoyner.htm
he was knighted with Paul Cain, Ricky Skaggs (country singer), Mahesh Chavda, and Bobby Conner
Arisemylove,
I originally broke the story about Jeremiah Candler and spoke to several reporters in KC. The people in KC are now calling town hall meetings with Mike Bickle because they are accusing IHOP of being a cult. I also spoke with some people very close