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Antichrist Barack Obama and Left Behind’s Antichrist Nicolae Carpathia Compared

Article by Amy Sullivan, from Time Magazine Aug. 2008

“It’s not easy to make the infamous Willie Horton ad from the 1988 presidential campaign seem benign. But suggesting that Barack Obama is the Antichrist might just do it.

That’s just what some outraged Christian supporters of the Democratic nominee are claiming John McCain’s campaign did in an ad called “The One” that was recently released online. The Republican nominee’s advisers brush off the charges, arguing that the spot was meant to be a “creative” and “humorous” way of poking fun at Obama’s popularity by painting him as a self-appointed messiah. But even this innocuous interpretation of the ad — which includes images of Charlton Heston as Moses and culled clips that make Obama sound truly egomaniacal — taps into a conversation that has been gaining urgency on Christian radio and political blogs and in widely circulated e-mail messages that accuse Obama of being the Antichrist.

The ad was the creation of Fred Davis, one of McCain’s top media gurus as well as a close friend of former Christian Coalition head Ralph Reed and the nephew of conservative Oklahoma Senator James Inhofe. It first caught the attention of Democrats familiar with the Left Behind series, a fictionalized account of the end-time that debuted in the 1990s and has sold nearly 70 million books worldwide. “The language in there is so similar to the language in the Left Behind  books,” says Tony Campolo, a leading progressive Evangelical speaker and author.

As the ad begins, the words “It should be known that in 2008 the world shall be blessed. They will call him The One” flash across the screen. The Antichrist of the Left Behind  books is a charismatic young political leader named Nicolae Carpathia who founds the One World religion (slogan: “We Are God”) and promises to heal the world after a time of deep division. One of several Obama clips in the ad features the Senator saying, “A nation healed, a world repaired. We are the ones that we’ve been waiting for.”

The visual images in the ad, which Davis says has been viewed even more than McCain’s “Celeb” ad linking Obama to the likes of Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, also seem to evoke the cover art of several Left Behind  books. But they’re not the cartoonish images of clouds parting and shining light upon Obama that might be expected in an ad spoofing him as a messiah. Instead, the screen displays a sinister orange light surrounded by darkness and later the faint image of a staircase leading up to heaven.

Perhaps the most puzzling scene in the ad is an altered segment from The 10 Commandments  that appears near the end. A Moses-playing Charlton Heston parts the animated waters of the Red Sea, out of which rises the quasi-presidential seal the Obama campaign used for a brief time earlier this summer before being mocked into retiring it. The seal, which features an eagle with wings spread, is not recognizable like the campaign’s red-white-and-blue “O” logo. That confused Democratic consultant Eric Sapp until he went to his Bible and remembered that in the apocalyptic Book of Daniel, the Antichrist is described as rising from the sea as a creature with wings like an eagle.

Sapp knows that the phrasing and images could just be dismissed as a peculiar coincidence. After all, it was Oprah Winfrey who told an Iowa crowd that Obama was “the one!” But, he insists, “the frequency of these images and references don’t make any sense unless you’re trying to send the message that Obama could be the Antichrist.” Mara Vanderslice, another Democratic consultant, who handled religious outreach for the 2004 Kerry campaign, agrees. “If they wanted to be funny, if they really wanted to play up the idea that Obama thinks he’s the Second Coming, there were better ways to do it,” she says. “Why use these awkward lines like, ‘And the world will receive his blessings’?”

Two months ago, Vanderslice founded a Democratic PAC called the Matthew 25 Network and soon noticed that the negative e-mails she received from conservative Christians fell into two general topical categories: abortion, and the assertion that Obama is the Antichrist. The cataloging of similarities Obama shares with the Antichrist began nearly two years ago. But it picked up steam in February 2008 after he racked up a string of impressive primary victories. A Google search for “Obama” and “Antichrist” turns up more than 700,000 hits, including at least one blog dedicated solely to the topic. A more obscure search for “Obama” and “Nicolae Carpathia” yields a surprising 200,000 references.

It’s not hard to see how some Obama haters might be tempted to make the comparison. In the Left Behind  books, Carpathia is a junior Senator who speaks several languages, is beloved by people around the world and fawned over by a press corps that cannot see his evil nature, and rises to absurd prominence after delivering just one major speech. Hmmh. But serious Antichrist theorists don’t stop there. Everything from Obama’s left-handedness to his positive rhetoric to his appearance on the cover of this magazine has been cited as evidence of his true identity. One chain e-mail claims that the Antichrist was prophesied to be “A man in his 40s of MUSLIM descent,” which would indeed sound ominous if not for the fact that the Book of Revelation was written at least 400 years before the birth of Islam.

The speculation reached a fever pitch after Obama’s European trip and the Berlin speech in which he called for global unity. Conservative Christian author Hal Lindsey declared in an essay on WorldNetDaily,  ”Obama is correct in saying that the world is ready for someone like him — a messiah-like figure, charismatic and glib … The Bible calls that leader the Antichrist. And it seems apparent that the world is now ready to make his acquaintance.” The conservative website RedState.com  now sells mugs and T shirts that sport a large “O” with horns and the words “The Anti-Christ” underneath.

Even if a fraction of the Internet-using public engages in outrageous Antichrist speculation, feeding those extreme beliefs wouldn’t seem to be an obvious political strategy. But McCain advisers are aware that one of the goals of Democratic outreach to Evangelicals has been to simply neutralize their opposition. “You just have to take the edge off,” says Michigan Democratic Party chair Mark Brewer, explaining why he spent much of a 2006 meeting with conservative pastors around his state. “Now that they’ve met me, they can see I don’t have two horns and a tail.”

A new TIME poll finds that the most conservative Evangelicals are the least enthusiastic about McCain’s candidacy. Convincing them that Obama does  have two horns and a tail might be the best way of getting them to vote. That’s what worries Campolo, who also sits on the Democratic Party’s platform committee. “Those books have created a subliminal language, and I think judgments will be made unconsciously about Barack Obama,” he says. “It scares the daylights out of me.”

_____________________

Endtimes note – let us not forget the Left Behind books are full of heresy and false theology, not to mention artistic licence. The books are FICTION. If people want to argue Barack Obama is the antichrist using sound scriptural argument based on the word of God in the Bible, comparing Obama to scripture  versus comparing him to Nicolae Carpathia from Left Behind or Damien from the Omen, I am all ears and welcome such discussion – and I think it is very important to examine this subject in the light of BIBLICAL truth. It is vital to be ‘up’ on genuine end time prophecy. However just  saying from this information alone:  ’Obama is the Antichrist because he is black’ or ‘He is a Muslim’ or ‘He is socialist’ or ’He is pro abortion’ or ‘He calls for change’ or ‘He is very charismatic’ – or even because a minority of nuts are calling him their Messiah - just does not cut it or validate this job title as appropiate for Obama.

November 8, 2008 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | Antichrist, Barack Obama, End Times Eschatology, False Prophets and Teachers, Interfaith and Ecumenical, Left Behind, New World Order, News, One World Religion, Oprah Winfrey, Politics, Rapture, Tim LeHaye, Tony Campolo | , , , , , | 61 Comments

61 Comments »

  1. Turks sacrifice sheep to honor Obama – “One of us”
    http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44607

    Comment by momma | November 8, 2008

  2. I think that the anti-christ will not be an American president but will come from Europe, though you could think Obama fits in. For example NAR thinks that America will play a big role in Gods Kingdom/Church, and many Americans see their country as the endtime Eagle… But they forget that America wasn’t even excisting when the Bible was written and the prophecies. It is all about the Middle-East, Europe and countries like Russia (Gog, Magog) and Asia. So I think we have to watch what is happening right now in Europe and Russia and the Middle-East. Interesting book is ‘Northern Storm Rising’, written by Ron Rhodes about Ezekiel 38,39…

    And by the way: is Obama a muslim? Just because his second name is Hussein? I don’t think he is a muslim.

    Comment by Ruitje | November 8, 2008

  3. Very well said, Miriam. I don’t know how people could use a work of fiction to help discern spiritual matters. Barack Obama is not the anti-Christ.

    But, as one blogger noted recently, it is uncanny how the world seems to rally around this man; how there is essentially and Obama cult (those who honestly believe this man is going to change the world and fix everything). Some have even suggested having an image of his face added to Mount Rushmore, right next to Lincoln’s. It’s uncanny, but this is all very true — women swoon, people faint and Oprah has called him “the one.”

    He just may be an example — to show those who are paying attention — of how the world is capable of swooning over, rallying around and practically worshiping a mere man on whom they rest all their hopes.

    Christians in America (and around the world) should keep doing what we’ve always been doing — going about the LORD’s business and praying that the unsaved (from the White House to prison house) surrender themselves unto our LORD and KING Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

    Comment by lavrai | November 8, 2008

  4. The ani-christ is a member of the European Union and will be the one who brokers a 7 year peace deal with Israel and the Patistinians. This is how believers will know his true identity. The peace deal is broken by Russia, joined by the Arab countries half way through. Israel is flanked on all sides by its enemies and uses atomic means to deter and to push the Arabs and the Russian back. The Chinese and their allies will also make an attempt to push Israel into the sea never to be heard from again. The battle is a bloody one for involved but it is prophesied.

    Comment by Aprilwhine | November 8, 2008

  5. Obama is not the antichrist. He does not fit what the Bible says. The thing is, I was really suprised the way people reacted to him, the adulation, when he didn’t really say anything of note. It shows how ready the world is for the real antichrist, even among christians(so called) People don’t think things out anymore.

    Comment by jude newman | November 9, 2008

  6. Take a look at his Chief of Staff – Rahm Emmanuel. Read every bit of information you can find about him – rather chilling! Rahm, apparently means, high and lofty. I thought it was short for Rahamim (mercy). Emmanuel, we all know means – God With Us. He orchestrated, choreographed the famous handshake between Rabin and Arafat in the Rose Garden (Clinton years)along with all the events associated with that day. He is known as a pitbull in politics, he commands respect. One disturbing story, at a democratic dinner he infamously stabbed the dinner table while reciting the names of all his and the parties enemies. It was said the table looked like a lunar landscape. Apparently he has ‘mellowed’ in recent years. This guy has a few of the essential requirements: risen up out of the middle-east (ancient Roman Empire) the Jews will accept him as Messiah (i.e. if does orchestrate a 7 year peace treaty with ‘the many’ and that alone will clinch it)He is also a moderate-liberal Jew (thus appealing to the non-orthodox Jew). His surname is EMMANUEL

    Comment by shoshana | November 9, 2008

  7. Oh yeah, he is also a very good ballerina – he forsook this path to go into politics. Also trains for triatholons, is married and has three (3) children. His father is native born Israeli.

    Comment by shoshana | November 9, 2008

  8. Things that make me uneasy.

    Shoshana has accurately described Rahm Emanuel (He spells his name with one m). He “comes out of the earth” which is symbolic of Israel and is part of the description of the False Prophet. The AC comes out of the sea so I expect he not be a Jew.

    My knee jerk reaction about Obama is he can’t be the Anti-Christ, but then again his past is shrouded in mystery.

    Remember “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”

    Also, It’s very unlikely end time events are going to follow the western style “Left Behind” model and there is no evidence to suggest that the EU is the revived Roman Empire. We arrogant westerners forget that there were two legs of the empire and the eastern leg lasted a lot longer.

    I really doubt that the Anti-Christ will come from the US, but just some things to think about.

    mk

    Comment by Mike | November 10, 2008

  9. Okay, Maybe not THE antichrist, but what about AN antichrist?

    Comment by paul | November 10, 2008

  10. Okay, Maybe not THE antichrist, but how about AN antichrist?

    Comment by paul | November 10, 2008

  11. The “Left Behind” link does not work btw.

    I have casualy read excerps from the books in my local Book shop Keith Jones in bournmouth, (I do not like the books it sells at times)my opinion is that they not to taken as complete truth, as they are just one mans opinion on their version of rev events. To suggest Obama is the AC is silly, we should be watching and praying, and descerning, wether we will raptured before or after the trib, I think it is best that we look to the Holy spirit to reveal what scripture says, not what we think it says!

    I DO not want to be around when the AC is revealed, to be honest, I’m sure if my pre trib beliefs are wrong the lord will enable me to cope when the time comes. I DO NOT believe we should be wasting time trying to suss out who he is, I think that IF we are around when he is, the Holy spirit will enable us IF we are watching and praying and discerning to know who he is.

    I also DO NOT think it is fair for us to shout Heresy at each other for having diff views on the timing of the rapture either, i feel so sad when this happends, I feel we should resect that others think diff for various reasons.

    The bible has no clear passage that says who the martyerd saints are that are mentioned, they could be trib saints left behind, or they could be Jews that have come to Christ during the tribulation, who knows? I say thins vcos it has been on my heart for a while.

    I do not endorse Lehaye in anyway btw, I knw little of him anyway. I’m always sceptical of one’s op of these things.

    Comment by Helen | November 10, 2008

  12. As has already been stated here and many other prophecy sites, as well as scripture, the AC comes from the revived Roman Empire (EU). As I see it, the only things BHO and the AC have in common is the fact that they are/will be so adored and well received and worshiped. Other than that, BHO does not fit the bill, scripturally. There are large numbers of believers out there, God bless them, that are terribly hung-up on trying to name who the AC is. Scripture is very clear that he WILL NOT be revealed until his appointed time. To try and “name” him, is wasted time that could be spent doing the Lord’s business. To me, that’s in the same catagory time-waster as those who try to date set the rapture. We will be out of here before he is revealed, so what is the point of trying to name him? There’s bigger fish to fry, while we have so little time left.

    Comment by Eli | November 10, 2008

  13. Obama and Jeremiah Wright speak on black liberation theology and the Joshua generation. Joshua generation..hmmm..where have I heard of that before??

    Comment by Morten | November 11, 2008

  14. Eli, ‘we will be out of here before he is revealed’? if you mean the Rapture, the Scripture says that the Day of the Lord and our gathering together to meet Him will NOT HAPPEN until the great falling away (apostacy) and the man of sin (antichrist) is revealed. So from where I stand, we will see who the antichrist is. It is definitely not Obama. But his Chief of Staff whose family origins are out of the ancient Roman Empire could very well be when you consider what a gifted ‘organiser’ he is. Just wait and watch to see if he can help Obama organise a peace treaty with Israel and her neighbours.

    Comment by Shoshana | November 11, 2008

  15. The Thessalonians were worried that they were already in the Day of the Lord and had missed the Rapture – Paul writes to reassure them that they hadn’t missed it. To emphasize that point, he explains that the Restrainer has to be removed before the Antichrist is revealed.

    I believe the Restrainer to be the Holy Spirit indwelt Church.

    Comment by Javanut | November 11, 2008

  16. My two cents on rapture theories. I cannot garner evidence to support pre-trib and the scripture given for pre-trib is shaky, out of context and really adding to scripture, which we’re commanded not to do.

    The problem with pre-trib (and there is a problem with it) is when people find out that things are getting bad, the Antichrist is here, false prophets and teachers abound and are doing signs and wonders, they will begin to believe the lies and fall away from the faith. “Where is Jesus Christ, why hasn’t he come back for us?” they will say.

    They will think their faith was a lie and they will not be able to stand against the opposition. Do you all see that pre-trib is a false doctrine taught for only 150 years in the church and not since the beginning of christianity! Actually, this false doctrine has it’s roots in the early NAR prophets…look it up.

    This Trojan Horse (Pre-Trib Rapture) in the church is setting many believers up for failure and falling away. Many will not be able to finish the race set out for them.

    Will they be able to withstand the torture that the Thessalonians endured? That was not “THE GREAT TRIBULATION” it was just tribulation. What makes us christians better than them? What makes us think we won’t have to live through horrible persecution relying on the God’s promises to get us through hard times and to finish the race laid out for us! We must endure to the end!

    If I am wrong about Pre-trib, then Hallelluah! I’m outta here without a scratch, but if it is false….whoa to those not prepared to suffer for their faith, it will surely be tested.

    As Jesus said, “When I come back, where will I find faith.”

    Comment by servant | November 11, 2008

  17. For all who read this go to FULFILLEDPROPHECY.COM they are closest in my opinion to the end time scenario, read the book Recomendation 666. You can read it online for free or download it. GOD BLESS!!!

    Comment by Vince | November 11, 2008

  18. The mark of the beast must be ‘worn’ to trade etc. It is the antichrist who brings this into fruition. If there are no christians left, (due to pre-trib rapture) how can they refuse to bear the mark, as Revelation proclaims?
    I wish I were wrong but we, the redeemed, will be around to tell the tale folks, and to witness the antichrist’s dastardly deeds.

    Comment by Sylvia | November 12, 2008

  19. I agree with you servant re pre-trib

    Comment by Paula | November 12, 2008

  20. Sylvia, I know of a whole bunch of people who are careless of their lives and when the Rapture comes and they are left behind, they will know that it will be perilous to take the mark of the beast. They have heard the Gospel over and over again and have chosen to ignore or be lazy about a response. I can easily see a whole lot of people, weepin’ and a wailin’ when they realise they’ve been left behind. It is these who will be refusing the mark because they know it will mean the lake of fire – God’s terrifying eternal judgement. It is easy to see many many people turn to Christ at this terrible time – or are you going to tell me that now there is no chance for people to repent.

    Comment by shoshana | November 12, 2008

  21. Adherents of the pre-trib rapture, believe this way, because Scripture clearly indicates that God doesn’t pour out punishment and wrath on His own, e.g. Noah, Jews in Egypt, Sodom & Gomorrah, Babylonian exile (faithful Daniel and others were taken out safely almost 10 yrs prior to Jerusalem’s destruction). The Great Tribulation has always been in my mind – God’s wrath and punishment. HOWEVER, since this whole debate has arisen in recent times, I have taken more time to re-read (for myself)all passages pertaining to the end-times. (Matthew 24) Jesus said Himself that there will be great persecution and we’ll be hated of ALL nations for His name’s sake. We’ll be delivered up and killed. Jesus goes on to say, except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. I accept that. But I truly struggle to accept that God’s faithful will be left on earth while He hurls judgement. The only ones sealed are 144,000 Jews – so does that mean the rest of us who love the Lord are going to be subject to the Scorpion stings. Rev 8:13 says woe, woe, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, for the three trumpets (judgements)that are yet to be sounded. Is this woe, to you and I???

    Comment by shoshana | November 12, 2008

  22. Dear shoshana

    I hear your heartbeat, and it echo’s mine.
    I used to think exactly the same. HOWEVER, as you have so accurately stated above, the written word is abundantly clear, whether we like it or not. I don’t think that the scorpion stings are literal but that is not really relevant because whatever they represent will be horrifying. I used to (and still do a bit) struggle with believing that God could watch his children suffer the woe, woe, woe. I can understand though, how such testing will sort us out. After all, God watched His only beloved Son suffer unimaginable torture at the hands of men, and the church ‘US’ was built on persecution. Every apostle (except John, who was exiled) suffered horrendous deaths. Since that time many ‘great people of God’ have been killed for their faith.

    Ultimately my solace is knowing that this life is but a moment in God’s plan, ‘tommorow’ is forever, with HIM, and whatever we face here will be fleeting.
    To live in fear, dwelling on the prospect of the horror to come (I am not suggesting you are Shonshana) is folly but of course we are human and the ‘forecast’ isn’t pretty.
    None of us really KNOW what we face, we may have a surprise ‘He is rich in mercy’, and remember Jesus stood to receive Stephen whose face ’shone like an angels’ after his stoning. The Lord encourages us in our weakness to LOVE, HONOUR, WALK CLOSELY WITH HIM, TRUST HIM with the whatever, and BE READY.

    In respect of bearing the mark, the harsh reality is that those who ignore or are lazy about a response (I know and love many in that category) have had every chance to accept the truth of the gospel but continue to rebel against God.

    Am I brave and ready? NO. The prayer of my heart is “Lord Jesus help me and prepare me to stand up for your name whatever the cost”
    And “In your mercy Lord please deliver all who ignore you, from the enemy, and SAVE them before you come”.

    Comment by Sylvia | November 12, 2008

  23. >>But I truly struggle to accept that God’s faithful will be left on earth while He hurls judgement. The only ones sealed are 144,000 Jews – so does that mean the rest of us who love the Lord are going to be subject to the Scorpion stings. Rev 8:13 says woe, woe, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, for the three trumpets (judgements)that are yet to be sounded. Is this woe, to you and I???>>>

    I think people have trouble interpretating scripture, the passage that states the beasties who trouble the earths occupants are sent to the Anti christs followers.
    So no we wont be subject to the stings.
    The rapture will be meeting Jesus in the air not looking about and seeing if he is to the left or right, the bible warns against beleiving people who claim to be him, people who say “there he is” etc… We will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, dissapear from this world to meet him IN THE AIR, not on the ground or anywhere else, so why would we be taken up to meet a false christ (If you believe, it will be pre trib) if he said we will meet him in the air?

    The pre trib is not tied to the 1800’s when it is believed the subject first came out, i was googling this subject and apparently there was someone who recorded pre trib centuries before, I can’t recall what site it was, but if you were to google pre trib you will find it.

    So why have no one who supports post trib been able to answer the query mentioned concerning the ones sealed being JEWS ONLY, and the thessalonian verse about the one who restrains will be removed, who that is, and why haven’t you lot answered the query about the Jews being the ONLY ones evangelising, plus the two witnessess and the angels? Why would they be the ones witnessesing if the church is still there? IMO we would be mentioned surly? The martyers can easilly be explained as the saved during the tribulation being killed or their faith, and no doubt the jewish believers aswell.

    Comment by Helen | November 12, 2008

  24. Sylvia, I hear what you say, but my point is that persecution because of our love and faith in Jesus at the hands of our fellow man and antichrist governments is very different to God’s wrath/judgement that is outlined in Revelation against the Christ rejecting world. This is the point I stumble at. If Jesus took judgment for our sin at the Cross, why on earth does He cause us to suffer God’s wrath again. Perhaps I’m not reading it right. Am open to hear whatever anybody has to say.

    Comment by shoshana | November 13, 2008

  25. Shoshana, I have flirted between both interpretations for years, and still feel ‘green behind the ears’ about the book of Revelation. In my opinion it is a riddle. Many claim to KNOW but I feel we are not meant to KNOW.
    From the bottom of my heart I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT and I AM WRONG. There are so many hints that suggest pre-trib and even more that suggest post-trib. Like you I am open to hear anything that really clinches the truth about this.
    One thing is certainly true, it is best to be ready NOW.

    I do share your heartbeat, Blessings to you.

    Comment by Sylvia | November 13, 2008

  26. What if Mr. Obama takes over the leadership of the United Nations? And, how do we know for sure where he was born? Just wondering…

    Comment by godhelpus | November 13, 2008

  27. Thanks Sylvia, guess we’ll have to leave it at that for now. Jesus promised that He would never leave us or forsake us and that He would be with us even unto the end of the world…and when they bring us before the magistrates etc. not to think about what we are going to say, because the Spirit Who dwelleth in us will speak through us. We have many and great exceeding precious promises from our Mighty Lord, hey! God Bless

    Comment by Shoshana | November 13, 2008

  28. Shoshana and Sylvia,

    In reference to the wrath and scorpion stings:

    Revelation 9:1-12
    Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up outof the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun & theair were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were told NOT to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only
    THE MEN WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD ON THEIR FOREHEADS.

    I hope this helps ease your mind a little.

    Comment by servant | November 13, 2008

  29. I would suggest everyone start reading Revelation. Yes, it is a little difficult and definitely something you can’t read once and understand. It says at the beginning of Revelation:

    Revelation 1:3
    3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    It is every Christian’s responsibility to have a good idea about this book. Which completely debunks Pre-Trib for me, and the more I read it…really shows how long us christians are gonna be around for all this.

    Even if you don’t understand it all now, I bet when something is happening, the scripture will rise up in you (just like other scripture does at particular times in your lives) and you will be comforted in knowing what is taking place and what could possibly take place next even if the world is falling apart around you. (Psalm 91)

    Ask God questions as you’re reading, this is being a true student, you do not need a seminary school bill to teach you any of this. Stop having man teach you what it ‘possibly’ could mean, and find out for yourself with the leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit.

    God Bless!

    Comment by servant | November 13, 2008

  30. Servant

    I actually do agree with you as my first original blog 12th Nov.(following yours of 11th above) states. I did a study with Derek Prince some years ago who was convincing with his magnificent insight. If I seem ’shaky’ in my conviction it is because I hesitate to be so bold as to claim to KNOW for sure. I do try to see through the ‘riddle’ of Revelation but I was never a scholar. Thanks for your comments, which are most helpful.

    Comment by Sylvia | November 13, 2008

  31. Servant

    You may like to answer the query of Helen (above), I would be interested to read your comments to her.

    Blessings

    Comment by Sylvia | November 13, 2008

  32. Helen regarding the 144,000 sealed. If you look alittle closer John hears the number sealed from Isreal and gives a list of the tribes this is all sympolic. The list given is different than others given, because he is trying to say something more. The verses that go along with each tribe(when they are first mentioned in the old testiment in regards to their character) describe each one of them as praising the Lord, loving God and beeing meek. The one left out of the list that is included in others is Dan. If you read up on Dan you’ll note that e worshiped idols. This is the kind of people who are part of Isreal. When you take Christs sacrafice God grafts you into the tree of Isreal. After John hears the tribes and numbers he turns around and sees a great multitude of people behind Christ. Of every toungue nation and color. He says that he can’t number the crowd. THis is the part that is litteral. So he hears the tribes of Isreal that has been sealed with God’s name in their forhead, and he sees multitudes with Christ. When we become Christians we are really by Faith choosing to be grafted into Isreal. We are Isrealites, and God promises all of Isreal will be saved.

    Comment by Krystal | November 13, 2008

  33. All of Isreal by the way is not all the Jews. In Abrahams lineage it’s only those who are in Faith, not every descendent. Isreal is made up of Jews and Gentiles, all by FAith.

    Comment by Krystal | November 13, 2008

  34. Ah, the good ol’ pre-post trib again. LOL, it never ends. OK, let’s toss in something I never see others argue in this. To assure us of a meaning, we often need another witness in the Bible. Well, here is one possible pro for pre-trib:

    Enoch was alive at the same time as Noah, just before the Flood. It was said TWICE that Enoch walked with God…and God raptured him. However, it was said ONCE that Noah walked with God, and Noah had to stay thru the judgment.

    This should not be compared to Elijah’s rapture, as his did not come at a time of judgment on the earth….. DavWms

    Comment by David L. Williams | November 13, 2008

  35. RE the book of Revelation
    As a Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ for 38 years and having listened to many preachings, teachings,etc on same.
    I am now of the opinion that no man knows the correct interpretation of this book, many book, CD, Tapes, etc. all with different slants etc,
    I now rest in the Lord Jesus Christ and enjoy the Birds of the air, and leave the rest up to him who knows all.

    Comment by William Southward | November 13, 2008

  36. Morten
    Your link to Obama teaching/preaching black liberation theology as you state, unfortunately I cannot view videos on my ‘old’ computor, can you or someone tell me a couple
    of the main points Barack says on this video. Thanks

    Comment by Paula | November 13, 2008

  37. Stop having man teach you what it ‘possibly’ could mean, and find out for yourself with the leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit…
    Amen and amen! The Holy Spirit who is more than able to lead you into all truth!!! Glory to God!
    Mr.Storm…may He continue to richly bless you!

    Comment by HBecker | November 13, 2008

  38. I’m with you William Southward on that one. Many who read the Word of God all believe that they are having it revealed to them by the Holy Spirit and doesn’t everyone have a different understanding to a greater or lesser extent. Servant says that as events happen we will be able to correlate them to the Scripture (which is what I said to a friend the other day). Specifically, I’m not uneasy in my mind about going through the tribulation or not, I just don’t want to be ashamed of myself in the Presence of Jesus. To be truly ready and waiting and in the meantime, because I have been reading my Bible for the past 40 plus years, I obviously want to understand those things which God has graciously given to us.

    Comment by shoshana | November 14, 2008

  39. Thanks Helen, I identify with what you say. I surely don’t believe that 144,000 are symbolic, or any of the other manifestations of judgement.

    Comment by shoshana | November 14, 2008

  40. Amen William Southward,
    I also enjoy the birds, and everything else God is doing. Glory to Him and Hos Word, even if I don’t always understand it. I do have faith in it though, and I know that He has paid the price for me and bought me from death. God is so Great. Jesus, Yeshua, is the coolest of the cools! I love his creation, I love his plan. He is just brilliant, what is there to not love about this guy? I just don’t know! I wish there were better words for it but all I know is Glory, and Praise. My favorite bible story is Paul and Silas in prisson, Prising God, and turning the hearts of the guards. That’s what it’s all about. I’m just so eeternally greatfull to be created by love, for love. What better purpose could there be. If I could sing I would siing praises to the Lord, but he know’s that’s not one of the gifts he gave me! He gave me compsion and truth in all things. In my husband, praise God for him, in my daughter Praise God for her, in my wonderfull family, Praise God for them, in giving me the information I need when I need it, with the internet. I just hope to always glorify Him, and love Him with these things. Jehova has given us so much, I want for nothing when I want only what I need, and all I need is Him. The Lord is good people, proclaim at the top of your lungs everywhere you go. It will catch on! I can’t even begin to put into words how cool I think Jesus is, how amazing. These are all small words that don’t rightly fit His Glory, but alas this is my vocabulary. God knows what I mean, that I cannot put in words. I want the world to know of the FRIEND I have found in Christ, Jesus!!! He is the dude, what more can I say! Glory to God!!!

    Comment by Krystal | November 14, 2008

  41. Your words are wonderful Krystal and they brought a great big smile to my heart, as I’m sure they have to God’s. Isn’t it extraordinary how we love this Person we have never seen or heard, how we long for Him to come back, how He is the centre of our thoughts day in and day out, how we love His Word and long to understand it more fully. This truly is a great gift of the Holy Spirit. He reveals Jesus to us and we hardly realise it – we just have this praise welling up from inside of us. Even this measure of faith that God has given to every man, is a wondrous gift. Yeah…Praise Him and praise Him some more!!!

    Comment by shoshana | November 15, 2008

  42. I’ve read alot these posts here and it seems the rapture issue is huge with Christians and i hear alot of back and forth pre-trib,mid-trib even a few post-trib(this one is way wrong)….what i have learned from the Lord in all of the rapture teachings is this -BE READY-that’s the most important issue -ARE YOU READY?-we need to spend more time with concern with our walk then to be side-tracked even by rapture time lines….let us Cling To Christ(C2C)and live.

    Comment by John C. | November 15, 2008

  43. >>Helen regarding the 144,000 sealed. If you look alittle closer John hears the number sealed from Isreal and gives a list of the tribes this is all sympolic. The list given is different than others given, because he is trying to say something more. The verses that go along with each tribe(when they are first mentioned in the old testiment in regards to their character) describe each one of them as praising the Lord, loving God and beeing meek. The one left out of the list that is included in others is Dan. If you read up on Dan you’ll note that e worshiped idols. This is the kind of people who are part of Isreal. When you take Christs sacrafice God grafts you into the tree of Isreal. After John hears the tribes and numbers he turns around and sees a great multitude of people behind Christ. Of every toungue nation and color. He says that he can’t number the crowd. THis is the part that is litteral. So he hears the tribes of Isreal that has been sealed with God’s name in their forhead, and he sees multitudes with Christ. When we become Christians we are really by Faith choosing to be grafted into Isreal. We are Isrealites, and God promises all of Isreal will be saved.>>

    Thanks for your thoughts, BUT I take the fact that the Jews mentioned are LITERAl, caps for emphasis, and that the Trib is about the Jews and the Unsaved gentiles comming to God,
    his judgement on the unsaved and the AC. I do not buy the fact that We are Isaelistes by being graphted into them by Faith, the Israelites are just that Jews. I believe we have the same priveliges as Gods people WHEN we are believers in Christ, and they are believers in Christ.

    I also do not get why people believe they are to be around when al around is seeing untold horrors like seeing your unsaved neighbour getting untold torture because they followed the AC.

    I do not beleive that Christains should argue ( I’m not saying that any of us are) about what should happen in regs to the rapture, I know about he tribe of Dan being left out, I read Footsteps of the messiah by Arnold G Fruchtenbaum, which gives a clear dipiction of revelation, and is very good. Him being an expert in Jewish languages and Greek, etc.

    All I know is that God has spoken to my heart and says the most imp thing is to worry about what we do NOW, how we live our lives NOW, and watch and Pray, Parable of the Ten Virgins spring to mind! Live each day as if we will be see him again .

    I also wonder why the Jews and the two witnessess, and the Angels are THE ONLY evangelists preaching the gospel. If the Church are around IMO we would be mentioned doing the same wouldn’t we? That’s why I think we are not around then.

    Comment by Helen | November 16, 2008

  44. I think it’s going to be really hard for African Americans to see the truth on this one. He has denied that Jesus Christ is the only way of Salvation. That makes Obama “an” antichrist who denies Christ. I give him a 99.9999999999% chance of being “the” antichrist. Especially given that the antichrist, imo, rises from America. I’m not going to get into it all. Of course he’s the anti-christ… at a very high degree of probability.

    Here’s a link to help people see the USA, Rev. 12, 13, 18 all together.
    http://sarahpalindeservesourvote.blogspot.com/2008/11/destiny-of-christian-usa-revelation-12.html

    Comment by laura | November 17, 2008

  45. Helen, Bless you… but it is by grace we are saved by faith. God chooses, releases grace to us, we believe, and by the power of faith we choose Christ.

    That sinful nature in us all always wants to believe in “BIG MAN” and “little god” with us pulling the wagon of salvation we deign to tell Jesus we’ll let Him ride in.

    It takes engrafting the Word by the Spirit to see that’s not how the natural mind thinks salvation works. God has a very detailed plan, is 100% Sovereign, and works all things according to His will.

    Everyone according to the flesh is an “Esau”. Everyone according to the Spirit is a “Jacob”. “Esau” is us in an unsaved state and “Jacob” is the redeemed in a saved state. The “first Adam” we are born of we are born according to the flesh. The “second Adam” is Jesus Christ by whom we are born of the Spirit.

    Who is the “all Israel” who will be saved??? Everyone. Surprise, surprise. lol Honestly, we are such neandrethals. God has a plan and a purpose in this whole series of human history. God is in perfect control and this isn’t about us. God is revealing all of this, most likely, for the benefit of angels who are watching this entire plan unfold… as God displays sin, evil, and His wrath and judgment in response… while displaying also the riches of His mercy… as well as His overall character in making Jesus Christ the Savior of the world and all men.

    The elect are saved by God’s Sovereign plan in this life. They are saved wholly by grace by God’s Soveriegn work as “His sheep” chosen before the foundation of hte world not by mere foreknowledge (give God some credit here – He’s a BIG God) but rather by a predeterminate counsel to show forth His own glory.

    Paradigm shift: We are NOT CENTRAL in GOD’S PLAN… Jesus Christ is. (God is.) We are NOT CENTRAL in decision making EITHER: Jesus Christ is. (God is.) This isn’t an “egocentric – man-centered” gospel or Bible or reality around us here. This is a GOD-CENTERED gospel, Bible,and reality. GOD is doing something for His own benefit in revealing things to… angels.

    The reprobate are left in the fall of Adam and God shows forth His wrath in judgment as all evil and sin and death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire. God makes His wrath and judgment known. And then He rebirths them all because all’s well that ends well and it is God’s will that none should perish but all come to the saving knowledge of hte Lord Jesus Christ – to be testified in due time. Every knee bows, every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord. Those on the left go through the lake of fire, their sin and sinful natures are destroyed… they are rebirthed by God’s 100% Sovereign grace and power… just like the first earth and Heaven are destroyed and recreated anew. All things are recreated. The story ends in perfect redemption.

    The egocentric mind of man says, “But that would be pointless!”… because man is thinking according to an egocentric reasoning that places him at the center of truth. Man is NOT at the center of truth or reality. Logos is the Word.. Jesus is Logos… Jesus is the CENTER of all truth and reason… and until we think with the mind of Christ, these vain protestations continue. God’s plan is not to “give everyone free will and see what they choose”. God’s plan is to show forth His own glory and power… and to reveal these things to angels in playing this matter out. You and I and all human beings won’t even remember what happened. All memories of hte former things will be wiped away with all tears. BUT, the holy angels WILL remember. They remained HOLY as GOD did… and will remember. Only those of us who were unholy (all humans) need our memory banks wiped clear. Major revelation? Yes, get Christ-centered and there are no protestations to God being God and being 100% in control and having a PLAN and a PURPOSE in which we are ACTORS on a STAGE… and not the PRIME CONSIDERATION OR REASON for this whole display. God will redeem us all.

    Your Bible has words mistranslated in it because the human beings who translated from the original language “wrote in” “eternal” in relation to punishment because… they just “assumed”. You know what happens when we “assume”. The actual words relate to “age-during”. The Bible speaks of “ages”. The ages of this world end after the entire fallen first creation is burned up and away and then all things are recreated. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven in this age or the age to come. However, it is burned up as the ages of this present creation end.. and then they are re-created.

    Human will, as John 1:12-13 tells you is not “central” to salvation. God’s grace in revealing Jesus Christ is… it is God who works new birth by His Spirit 100% by grace.

    God is absolutely 100% Sovereign. Just like God allows Satan to sin and is not personally responsible for teh actions of Satan God allws – God is neither responsible for the actions of man in sin that man does that God allows. The logic is irrefutable in a truly Christ-centered paradigm and mindset. All protestations are works of the flesh born of the carnal mind at enmity with God. So please put down upset and anger and protest and “what about me!!??” man-centered responses to Biblical truth about God and His plans and purposes that do not place man and man’s will at the center of HIS Kingdom: for God places JESUS CHRIST there at that center.

    Last note, all Israel are saved because “Israel” is truly our spirit born identities of “who we are”. God has mercy on all and all are saved in the end. This doesn’t “spoil the story”… people are just too self-important in the carnal mind. In the Book of Revelation, things are not in “strict time sequence” from Chapter 1 to the end… or even in the verses. Yes, God has wrath and judgment on sin… and His final judgment is utter destruction of all evil in the lake of fire… NOT eternal torment. God doesn’t “value” “man’s free will” as the definition of love.

    What is the true definition of Love when one’s perceptions are CHRIST-CENTERED: Jesus Christ. God’s grace in Jesus Christ is His Love. God is Love. God doesn’t need our human wills to choose Him and God isn’t concerned with “but then we’d be robots!” That’s human protestations from an egomaniac pov. AS that dies and we become truly CHRIST-CENTERED in our reasonings… we surrender to God and yield and submit and worship God as He is: CENTRAL and in DECISION MAKING POWER of who is saved when by the work of the Holy Spirit 100% under His personal control by influence of divine intervention and a working deposit of His Spirit for every true work of the Holy Spirit done.

    The happy ended “up ends” religious ideas about punishment and people trying real hard to be saved and earning big points with God to merit their own salvation. God doesn’t think like that at all.

    As all died in Adam, all are redeemed, saved, and recreated anew in Chirst.

    Go to a Young’s Literal Translation and see that everything occurs in ages – and what translaters “wrote into” our Bibles in human error as they in a man-centered way of thinking couldn’t fathom what life could be all about if God didn’t eternally torment people and if in the end everyone got the same salvation – what would be the point of all this?? – lines of reasoning wiht man at center.

    The original language doesn’t say “eternal” in relation to punishment or hell.

    There’s no such thing. There’s only the last enemy to be destroyed as death (after all sin that leads to death and hell is destroyed in the lake of fire even as the earth was destroyed.)

    Relax. God is in control. God will save all people – and it won’t spoil anything for that to happen – and we don’t derive meaning in our life from the concept of eternal punishment. Rather, GOD in Jesus Christ is where we get meaning from.

    God has mercy on all in the end and it is by His MERCY that we are saved as He works by His own Spirit to birth us by His Spirit… giving us wills by His Spirit in perfecut joint union with His. There is no compulsion, coercion, nor force… there is only the enlivening grace of God acting in us by His Spirit.

    Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. Literally. Hell is nothing to base our faith in: Jesus Christ is.

    Death and hell are destroyed in the end. Jesus hands the kingdom over to God the Father having subdued all UNDER HIM… baptied into Him.

    Patience. God has a Plan.

    God bless.

    Comment by laura | November 17, 2008

  46. Helen,
    Helen, I’m in no way gearing this completely at you, I’m just using some of your statements that I have a response to and using it to respond to everyone on the matter.

    You say:

    “I DO not want to be around when the AC is revealed, to be honest….”

    I’m sorry, but this small statement speaks your heart and many other’s heart on the matter.

    And this is the underlying reason why people gather poor evidence to support pre-trib. As with following Christ, we know it’s not about what we want but God’s will be done. Christ was bruised and beaten and subjected to horrible torture because of us, why do we want to offer him any less to glorify his name?

    Not saying you are doing this Helen, I’m just addressing the problem I see in the Church/Body of Christ for shaking in our boots at the thought of persecution. Our faith is refined by fire, how else does that happen? I’m also saying that I too am guilty of being scared…who isn’t? Although, scared or not, I’m preparing that my faith will be tested, and I’m praying that God gives me strength to endure to the end and the courage to glorify his name … even if it hurts.

    We must have the heart to ask these things. We must seek out God’s counsel through these times. I believe it is very important to discuss these details. I believe every Christian should be prepared to go through the Great Tribulation, because many are not prepared. Just because some of us are up to the challenge and relying on God to get us through, it doesn’t mean that other christians are.

    We must warn and encourage our brothers and sisters to endure till the end, to not grow faint of heart and fall away from the faith and/or be deceived by a delusion. We must warn them not go out into the desert or run after rumors of Christ’s return. We are to endure as long as we are on the earth and until we see his coming as the lighting flashes from east to west and he snatches us up on that glorious Day of the Lord, end of the age, last day, final trumpet, etc.

    I have been visiting churches and the past 3 sermons were adamant pre-trib, and warped pre-trib theology at that. People were being told that there was no hope for people after the pre-trib rapture!!!! If that’s the case, why would Revelation even need to be in the Bible, why is there a need of 144,000 jews if there is no salvation or Holy Spirit around to dwell within the believer? Why would Jesus give such a great outline of events in Matthew 24 if we didn’t need to know any of it? People love to quote Matthew 25 and the virgins parable, but they really don’t ever mention Matthew 24. Why is that?

    I was grieved in my heart and angry at these sermons. The flock is not even being told to think on the extremely low possibility that they will be raptured out of here before everything gets bad. The flock is being ‘told’ (not studying the scriptures for themselves) that they will be outta here while others bare the brunt of tribulation. “Not my problem” the church says.

    I wonder how Satan makes war on the saints if there’s not going to be any here in the endtimes, just the sealed super Jews, 2 witness’ a few angels and the wicked? Guess that scripture means nothing, I should just overlook it, right?

    Satan wants to keep christians away from the truth, so he devises false doctrine that would cater to their weakness to deal with persecution or any bit of oppression … cue Pre-trib rapture theory and people’s inability to read and study their bibles.

    Helen, you say:
    “The pre trib is not tied to the 1800’s when it is believed the subject first came out, i was googling this subject and apparently there was someone who recorded pre trib centuries before, I can’t recall what site it was, but if you were to google pre trib you will find it.”

    Here is an excerpt from a well written article about pre-trib theory:
    http://freepages.religions.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~evilsizer/Rapture2.html

    EARLY THEORIES

    The appearance of pre-tribulationism relatively late in Church history substantially weakens the probability that it was actually taught by the Apostles. Whether Morgan Edwards (1788) or Edward Irving (1830) was the first to publish this theory is inconsequential, both being removed from Apostlic times by more than seventeen centuries. The fact is, there is no trace of pre-tribulationism in the early Church, or prior to the Reformation. This fact is devastating to pre-trib.

    On page nine, footnote 11 denotes that John Darby was the inventor of the rapture theory. Pre-tribbers in the past have been content to trace the origins of pre-tribulationism to Darby. In fact he was just a person who made the belief popular. Darby’s ideas were borrowed from the Irvingites. However, with the research of Dave MacPherson exposing the pre-trib connection to the Irvingites, with their heresies, false prophecies, and failed date setting, modern pre-tribbers have been frantically trying to come up with “pre-Irving” evidence of pre-tribulationism to deflect the stigma of “Irvingism.” The search for earlier pre-trib evidence has not been totally unsuccessful. A 1788 book by Baptist Minister, Morgan Edwards, displays a very crude form of pre-tribulationism. If Morgan Edwards’ theory did not take hold in some group, or if his book did not fall into the hands of Irving or Darby, then he might as well have developed his theory on Mars! Because, it had no impact at all on modern pre-trib development. It was only through the recent teachings of John Darby that the belief became popular. Pre-tribbers may be disappointed to discover that while Morgan Edwards’ conclusions regarding the Millennium were based on literal interpretation, he gave no (literal) biblical reason for separating the rapture from the second coming. His only justification for this separation was his personal belief that it provided a necessary interval for the judgment of believers.

    Morgan’s academic essays are not well developed eschatological treatise. As a young (20-24 years old) seminary student, he was assigned the task of writing an essay on the Millennium by his professor. While it is apparent that young Morgan had a pretty good handle on Scripture, he made several glaring errors and contradictions. Not once did he refer to another writer to support his rapture theory. Morgan was simply writing his essay following the instruction of his professor, to use the LITERAL method in all cases except where that would lead to absurd conclusions. This was contrary to the accepted Protestant way of treating prophecy at the time. Morgan also stated that his following the literal hermeneutic was strictly for this exercise alone, and that he did not wish to be seen as a literalist. In other words, this whole essay was hypothetical! It seems Morgan’s work was published partly for its novelty and entertainment value rather than its weight as a theological discourse! And, one is not disappointed with the second section, where Morgan speculated that the lake of fire is in the moon, and that all the other planets in our solar system are inhabited! “

    Here is another interesting excerpt from the same article for everyone to look over:

    “Secret rapture teachers claim that the supposed two phases of Christ’s second coming will take place seven years apart. Of course, we should not be expected to address their claim until they prove His Coming in two stages. For unless they can demonstrate from Scripture there are indeed two phases to Christ’s return, it is a problem to argue a time span of ANY length whatsoever between them. But let’s take a moment anyway to examine their false claim in the light of the Bible.

    The secret rapture assumes 1) The rapture takes place seven years before the end time and 2) that life goes on after Jesus secretly takes His church to heaven.

    Now watch these assumptions self-destruct before your very eyes as you read the following verses:

    John 6:39-40 ,44,54 “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Jesus here declares the simple fact -repeating it here for emphasis—- that He will raise up His faithful dead at the last day, NOT seven years before.

    Luke 17:29 “But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.” Here Jesus tells us his return will be like the experience of Lot: This passage does NOT say that Lot, the believer, went out of Sodom and then seven years later, the fiery destruction fell upon unbelievers. No, it says these things happened the SAME day. Sometimes we tell a person, “Relax, it’s not the end of the world.” Well according to this theory, the secret rapture is not the end of the world either. We only mention this because further assumption made by secret rapture theorists is that when God’s church is taken from the earth, the Holy Spirit is also withdrawn-seven years before the end of the world.

    Matthew 28:19-20 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” After Jesus ascended back to heaven, the only way he could be with His people was through His Spirit. And through His Spirit, He promises to be with us here always. This promise shows that both believers and the Holy Spirit will remain here, even unto the end of the world and not be removed 7 years before. You can see by now, the secret rapture theory is just the tip of the iceburg. Beneath it lies a whole package of other assumptions – none of which is backed by the bible. You may ask the question…Where did they get the idea of the seven year period which supposedly intervenes between the two stages of Christ’s coming? The answer is from the unique interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27, the momentous message to God sent to Daniel by the angel Gabriel. However the messages are to do with the FIRST coming of Christ as the Messiah the prince, not his second coming.”

    David Williams and Helen,

    You both mention why would we need the 2 witness’ , super jews (144,000), and angels if we(the Body) were here?

    Well, with that reasoning then why would we need the witnesses if we had the super jews and vice versa or why have super jews and witness’ if we have angels?

    Couldn’t one supernatural group get all the work done?

    The Body will be doing it’s part along side the other groups…so that all might be saved.

    Helen, you say:

    “I also wonder why the Jews and the two witnessess, and the Angels are THE ONLY evangelists preaching the gospel. If the Church are around IMO we would be mentioned doing the same wouldn’t we? That’s why I think we are not around then.”

    I don’t recall scripture saying that they are the ONLY ones preaching the gospel. Could you show me where that is said please?

    The 2 witness’ and super jews are just new characters to the plot and new on the scene, does the Body need another introduction?

    Thank you all for your time. I enjoy discussing these things. It is good for the Body of Christ to discuss scripture even if there is disagreement.

    Comment by servant | November 17, 2008

  47. Servant,
    I just want to thank you for that. Pre-trib, post-trib…it matters. So we as christians need to get into our bibles and figure it out. At the beginning of Revelation there is a blessing, it says blessed is he that readeth and understands these words. It also says in the bible that even the elect will be decieved. Christ coming and the rapture is the last plague, lucky number seven. We wont be raptured out before it gets tough, we’ll be tested all the way to the end, and why not. God himself went through much worse for us than we’ll ever go through for him. God’s people will and have been pursecuted for thousands of years. Satan is always trying to lead us astray. But because we have chosen Christ he can’t just come out and tempt us with blatantly evil stuff, instead he confuses us and has us argue amongst eachother. He wants to take our eyes off of God. He uses institutions all over the world and always has to confuse us and make us think we are worshiping God when we infact are not. He poses as angels and holy men all to lead the saints astray. That’s the only way he can get to the saints. We have to be smarter than he is, and dilegent to he Word of God. This is the only way not to get lead astray into condemnation. There are two women in revelation one is the pure woman, which represents the true church and Bride of Christ, God’s People. The second woman is the Harlot riding upon the beast with a cup full of abomination and a name MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. This is also a chorch but a fallen one. One that has led the saints astray with blasphomy and false doctorines. There is alot of telling information for us in that name. Babylon means confusion. So the church riding the beast will confuse the people, will put false teachings out there, such as this pre-trib rapture, an eternal soul (which by the way no where in the bible will you find the frase eternal soul), eternal hell fire. This harlot or fallen church will be used by satan to lie to us about God. It will put itself in the place of God, claiming to have the power to change His laws. But there will be a final warning before the tribulation or seven plagues start. In Rev. 14 I believe it’s Christ speaking but I can’t remember for sure but we are given three warning messages. Fear God, Worship Him, and give him glory. Babylon has fallen, come out of her my people (here He is talking about the church or harlot that has fallen, He’s telling us that we need to come out of it and truely worship God). And lastly We’re warned Don’t worship the beast, his image, or recieve the mark of the beast. Once the plagues start it says that no one changes sides, everyone is where their gonna be. There is so much of Christianity that has fallen from God’s way and his laws, I don’t say this to point fingers or be negative, it’s just the truth. I know it’s the truth because it’s described in the bible as the harlot. The bride of Christ is pure and the harlot is fallen. However God is in control and or that I am eternally greatfull. Glory to God for His plan. His word tells us that God’s People or Spiritual Isreal will be given eternal life through His grace and redemption through faith in Jesus Christ. His word also tells us that all sin, death and hell and satan are destroyed, but the spirit goes back to the father. Not the soul or body of those destroyed by God’s judgement but the spirit. The spirit is different than the soul. The spirit is the breath of God that he used to give us body and soul. This is the best end to the story. All are saved, because God is merciful. Some of us accept Christs sacrifice and are given eternal life. Others destroy themselve through iniquity, pride, evil, sin but the spirit goes back to the father, and they are not punished for eternity but put out of their own misery, because sin brngs misery and death. I just love God and his plan and his mercy and glory and love. He is absolutely the one in controll and for that I’m happy He knows what he’s doing, and he loves each of us. Glory to God!!!

    Comment by Krystal | November 18, 2008

  48. I was told that his victory speech mimicked the speech in the Left behind series of the character who is depicted as the Anti-Christ. If this is true then wouldn’t it seem strange he would use those exact wordds? He has lied about his citizenship, sealed his College records, and other documents in Kenya. He is obvouisly not interested in upholding the Constitution. But what are we doing about it?
    Nothing except bickering and fueding among ourselves, and does he or our Supreme Court care? No. So in the end whatever happens is not the devils fault but ours, because we have denied God, and so worshipped the office of President, and relied on a human to solvve issues only God can solve.
    We alone are responsible for what is to come, because we chose not to push the issues, or stand up as one voice. We hide behind our prayers, yet we don’t believe without a doubt we have already recieved.

    When we put anyone or anything before God, we are denying Christ, or Truth, so we each of us is Anti or Against Christ.
    There is only ONE POWER, ONE GOD, if you believe in another you will get what you believe. “It will be done unto you, as you believe.” “Pray believing you have already recieved.” “Hear o Isreal, the Lord thy God is ONE.” Jesus

    Comment by Rev. Spiritwomyn | December 14, 2008

  49. Beware of Emma Curtis Hopkins, the URL from “Rev. Spiritwomyn”

    This Emma Hopkins was a mystic and a false Christian Science “prophetess”.

    Comment by UnprofitableServant | December 15, 2008

  50. I was influenced in 1988 by listening to a guy by the name of Edgar Whisenant. I was not a christian, and I heard this guy talk on radio about the rapture would be on September 11,12, or 13, depending on the dateline. Among other things God was working on me and I came to the Lord on the second Wednesday in August of 1988. That prophesy came and went. I have heard varying doctrines, but I also realise to have the prophet’s reward, I must believe the prophet. That said we (particularly in the culturized Western thought world) believe that on of the pinnacles of God’s great blessings is the American dream. After twenty years I realize that although that dream gives on a sense of achievement, the temptation on the lust of the world starts choking out the GREAT reward of the martyr.I work to support my family, yet I,we all want to be used of God. But the harsh reality that Jesus said we would be persecuted for His names sake. I have been guilty of trying to guarantee my success (save my life), you know, to have no worries, and just be a good quiet Christian, but I also read that Apostle Paul went through so much deathly persecution, and I desire to be rewarded like Paul, but I CAN”T serve God and mammon. I believe the words Of Corrie Tin Boone are in order here:

    The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

    Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

    My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

    We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred; yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” We too, are to be overcomers — bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

    Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son.” This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive — but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

    Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. “Yes, the Lord will heal me,” Betsy said with confidence. She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

    It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy’s death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

    There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are some of the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

    In China, the Christians were told, “Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated — raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

    We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes — to stand and not faint.
    I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

    Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, “Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation.” Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

    When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, “Nothing could be any worse than today.” But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy:

    If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you; on their part evil is spoken of, but on your part He is glorified (1 Peter 3:14).
    I found myself saying, “Hallelujah! Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!”

    In America, the churches sing, “Let the congregation escape tribulation,” but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone, more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

    Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

    The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, “Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?”

    The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

    “When I was a little girl,” I said, “I went to my father and said, ‘Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a marty for Jesus Christ.’”

    “Tell me,” said Father, “When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?”

    “No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.”

    “That is right,” my father said, “and so it is with God’s strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need — just in time….”

    My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

    In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.
    Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

    But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

    How can we get ready for the persecution? First we need to feed on the word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

    Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of history, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

    We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

    In the coming persecution, we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian’s life.

    Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

    “When I am weak, then I shall be strong,” the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord; we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

    “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him,” for I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life. Hallelujah!

    Corrie ten Boom—1974

    We must as Christians embrace persecution. And quit worrying about our 100 fold return or even our 401k. Jesus told us to occupy until he comes, and for some of our brothers and sisters around the world that occupying cost them their lives. Oh what a glorious thing.

    Obama is not the antichrist but as Lavrai stated it is interesting to see how quickly the world can swoon and esteem a world leader so quickly, particularly if he can promise us good tidings and a great future. The only future is in the pan theory, it’ll all pan out in the end. I would rather be prepared to be greatly persucuted and dissapointed and to be looking for the rapture and greatly dissapointed.

    Comment by Gary N. | December 15, 2008

  51. I had never even considered Barack Obama as maybe being the Anti-Christ until i read this article and heard several stories on the radio. it is kind of disappointing to think that a president that we had so much faith in to bring us out of this time of bankruptcy that he may be the Anti- Christ.

    Comment by Eric R. | March 11, 2009

  52. While I don’t believe he is the anti-christ, I find it stunning every time he does YET ANOTHER thing that mirrors the fictional Carpathia.

    This time, it was his speech at a CHRISTIAN facility, Georgetown University, when his “team” (legion?) had them REMOVE CHRISTIAN SYMBOLS from where he spoke, like the ancient Greek symbol for Christ (IHS) and the CROSS.

    What is WRONG with our President? Is he simply insane?

    Comment by Helaine | April 16, 2009

  53. Were reasons given?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | April 16, 2009

  54. While he may not be the anti christ, I believe he will usher him in. He did a full bow to te king of Saudi, and I think that is against protocol. That is only one of many things he has done that makes me wonder? Article here….. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=93696

    Comment by OhhowILOVEJESUS | April 16, 2009

  55. A couple of things:
    1. The prophecy that the anti-christ will be in his 40’s and a muslim is from Shia Muslim Prophecies. Not the bible.

    2. I completly disagree that he will come out of the old roman empire. The bible does not back this up.
    a) Babylon is where he will set up his kindom. Babylon and the Garden of Eden are both located in IRAQ.

    b) He will come out of the Beast. Persia, Assyria, Eqypt, Edom and others are called “beasts” by Isaiah. These are Muslim countries NOT European. Islam is the Beast out of which the anti-christ will come.

    c) He will deal with the Jews treacherously when the Jews will not deal treacherously with them.
    Look at Gaza. Israel gave the Palatinians Gaza in a peace treaty in return for the attacks on Israel to cease. This has not happened. Instead, over 11,000 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza.

    d) Muslim scholars themselves point to the antichrist in Revelations as being their Mahdi. (research this one and compare the muslim prophecies to the anti-christ shown in biblical prophecies)
    While your at it compare the muslim Jesus, who was NOT crucified but rather taken up into Heaven, to the false prophet as revealed in the Bible

    e) Read up on Black Liberation Theology and Cone. He states that if Jesus isn’t for “blacks” and “against whites” then he is NOT their Jesus or their Savior. Black liberation also teaches that Jesus will help lead the beast, when they don’t call Him the beast outright, to overcome the white oppressors and the Zionist (Israel) who they consider the “false Jews” as pointed out in Revelations.
    While I do not believe that Obama is the anti-christ, I do believe that he will play a part in the Endtimes. In order for the anti-christ to come to power “peacefully” nations must be willing to hand over sovienty. This will be done through the UN. Muslim countries are members of the UN after all. How many times lately have you heard the phrase “international law”? Do you know that the UN passed a law that says that countries and their citizens are not allowed to speak ill of any muslims?

    We need to be careful when believing what we have been traditionally taught and rely on the Holy Spirit to be our Teacher as Jesus outlined in John chapter 25, I think. Could be wrong on the chapter but not the Book. The Jews missed out on Jesus’ first coming because of the traditions they were taught. They have the first coming and the second all rolled into one.

    3) James teachs us that we will not be called up until the anti-christ is revealed. I was raised as a pre-triber who was taught that the anti-christ will be European. I know that he won’t come out of Europe and am iffy about the pretrib.

    When God started to show me that that the antichrist will be muslim I pushed it aside for a couple of years as being “just in my head”. But then the Holy Spirit kept putting to my remeberace scriptures that we being fufilled today as well as every where I looked in the bible, there it was. I am now convinced and the ones who taught me the traditions are also convinced compleltly independant of my influence. I had meantioned it once in passing and was told I was nuts. Years later when it was meantioned for only the second time, they started to show me what they themselves were shown.

    Read the OT prophecy books and get maps of Ancient times and compare them with the “NATION of Islam”. Ask the HS to guide you and be open to hear what He has to say. You’d just might me surprised and shocked at what it really says.

    Your Sister in Christ,
    Deb

    Comment by amdntstr - Deb | June 26, 2009

  56. A couple of things:
    1. The prophecy that the anti-christ will be in his 40’s and a muslim is from Shia Muslim Prophecies. Not the bible.

    2. I completly disagree that he will come out of the old roman empire. The bible does not back this up.
    a) Babylon is where he will set up his kindom. Babylon and the Garden of Eden are both located in IRAQ.

    b) He will come out of the Beast. Persia, Assyria, Eqypt, Edom and others are called “beasts” by Isaiah. These are Muslim countries NOT European. Islam is the Beast out of which the anti-christ will come.

    c) He will deal with the Jews treacherously when the Jews will not deal treacherously. with them.
    Look at Gaza. Israel gave the Palatinians Gaza in a peace treaty in return for the attacks on Israel to cease. This has not happened. Instead, over 11,000 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza.

    d) Muslim scholars themselves point to the antichrist in Revelations as being their Mahdi. (research this one and compare the muslim prophecies to the anti-christ shown in biblical prophecies)
    While your at it compare the muslim Jesus, who was NOT crucified but rather taken up into Heaven, to the false prophet as revealed in the Bible

    e) Read up on Black Liberation Theology and Cone. He states that if Jesus isn’t for “blacks” and “against whites” then he is NOT their Jesus or their Savior. Black liberation also teaches that Jesus will help lead the beast, when they don’t call Him the beast outright, to overcome the white oppressors and the Zionist (Israel) who they consider the “false Jews” as pointed out in Revelations.
    While I do not believe that Obama is the anti-christ, I do believe that he will play a part in the Endtimes. In order for the anti-christ to come to power “peacefully” nations must be willing to hand over sovienty. This will be done through the UN. Muslim countries are members of the UN after all. How many times lately have you heard the phrase “international law”? Do you know that the UN passed a law that says that countries and their citizens are not allowed to speak ill of any muslims?

    We need to be careful when believing what we have been traditionally taught and rely on the Holy Spirit to be our Teacher as Jesus outlined in John chapter 25, I think. Could be wrong on the chapter but not the Book. The Jews missed out on Jesus’ first coming because of the traditions they were taught. They have the first coming and the second all rolled into one.

    3) James teachs us that we will not be called up until the anti-christ is revealed. I was raised as a pre-triber who was taught that the anti-christ will be European. I know that he won’t come out of Europe and am iffy about the pretrib.

    When God started to show me that that the antichrist will be muslim I pushed it aside for a couple of years as being “just in my head”. But then the Holy Spirit kept putting to my remeberace scriptures that we being fufilled today as well as every where I looked in the bible, there it was. I am now convinced and the ones who taught me the traditions are also convinced compleltly independant of my influence. I had meantioned it once in passing and was told I was nuts. Years later when it was meantioned for only the second time, they started to show me what they themselves were shown.

    Read the OT prophecy books and get maps of Ancient times and compare them with the “NATION of Islam”. Ask the HS to guide you and be open to hear what He has to say. You’d just might me surprised and shocked at what it really says.

    Your Sister in Christ,
    Deb

    Comment by amdntstr - Deb | June 26, 2009

  57. I apologize for double posting. Please forgive me.

    I feel I must clarify that I do believe that Jesus was crucified.
    What I meant to say was that the muslims to not believe that he was nor do they believe that he was the Son of God. The bible teaches that this belief is the “spirit of the anti-christ”.

    Comment by amdntstr - Deb | June 26, 2009

  58. I don’t recall scripture saying that they are the ONLY ones preaching the gospel. Could you show me where that is said please?

    I have read the revelation and there is no mention of anyone preaching other than the angels, could you read it your self?

    I was discussing this pre-trib the other day with a mature christain, she has advised me that the most imp thing is salvationand like I have said living the life that Jesus commands us. TBH there is no secret rapture, the rapture can happen at anytime and people who beleive will dissapear right in front of you! (If you believe pre trib)

    I find arguing about who is the AC and what is true post or pretrib to be a waste of time because both sides will never agree in my experience

    Comment by Helen | July 24, 2009

  59. The two witnesses are preaching Jesus. They are not angels.

    Jesus Himself stated while talking about the end times and the signs that then we will know that the time is near.

    The signs are there for a reasons. They are a warning to us to prepare for what is to come whenever it does come.

    The Bible also teaches that the AC will be revealed before the rapture. So it makes perfect sense to look for him.

    There are many Books in the Bible that talk about the endtimes. I believe that this is so that we won’t be deceived. There will be many who will be destroyed for lack of knowledge. I am not one who believes that every Word in the Bible is for a reason. Why would He make sure that we would know the signs if there wasn’t any purpose for it?

    Both OT and the NT are full of God instructing His people to follow after wisdom, knowledge, and Instruction. All is for our edification
    and all gives life to those who follow after such.

    I have read Revelations, Daniel, Isaiah as well as the other Books of prophecy many times over. I have been studying the Word for well over 40 years.

    Your sister in Christ,
    Deb

    Comment by Amdntstr | August 2, 2009

  60. dear vince, God will take his people! All you who are doubting, he tells us in his book. Many more, (at least 144,000 jews and numberless “gentiles”)will see Him.

    Comment by wrnqw3n | October 29, 2009


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