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Kansas Preacher Pushes Obama Muslim Message

“WICHITA, KAN.  - A Wichita, Kansas preacher says he will not remove a message on his church sign that says President-Elect Barack Obama is a Muslim.

The sign is staying up despite the fact that Obama is a Christian.

The sign at Spirit One Christian Center reads, “America we have a Muslim president. This is sin against the Lord.”

Obama supporters reportedly got into a shouting match with parishioners outside the church on Sunday.”   [Article from here.]

Although I think it is debatable whether Barack Obama is a genuine Christian or not, and also debatable whether he is a Muslim or not, or an unregenerate New Age interfaith ‘mongrel’ mix [which I think is the most likely] I find this church’s ignorance and short-sightedness outstanding – whatever religion Obama genuinely is, or is not – and a terrible testimony upon the American church.

How on earth is having a president who is a Muslim – even if Obama really actually really were one – a ’sin’ against the Lord upon the nation or its voters?  And following this pastor’s line of reasoning, if having a Muslim president is so sinful, what of an atheist or agnostic or wiccan president who pretends  to be a Christian and goes through the motions [as most of them have to do to be nominated, but whose hearts and minds are really far from it] - or the undiscerning voter who votes for these so-called ’Christians’ because they make all the right noises while hoodwinking and playing the Christian block Vote?  Is that not equally wrong too? Or what about a so-called born again Christian, who is actually an interfaith universalist as George W Bush is, for example. No signs outside their church about that  sin or apostasy, then, eh?

Or then again, what of an unrighteous or foolish and unwise Christian president - is that better than any  Muslim? It is apparently ok to be a foolish and/or unrighteous president with foolish and/or unrighteous policies as long as one professes to be a ‘Christian’ – even if one does not act the part. No signs outside the church protesting that,  as long as the president pretends to be born again  and is white! No wonder some of these politicians can get away with murder – literally – and still be adored! God help us and God open blinded America’s eyes!

And then again, how many of these same church folk would not even hesitate about using a Muslim specialist heart surgeon, if he were the very best at his job and they needed a risky heart operation – even ‘electing’ him over a less knowledgeable, less experienced and less equipped Christian surgeon? What is the difference with electing who you think to be a better politician using the same plumbline? If having a Muslim president is sinful, by the same logic, is not electing for a Muslim surgeon equally sinful? Or a Muslim mechanic, Muslim electrician et al?  [By the way, I am not saying that Obama is the best for the job, I am just making a point that his religion or lack of it when viewed on its own, unless he is dominionist or theocraticist of any ilk, should not disqualify him from the job of president, nor does it make him a bad leader by necessity. If it is 'sinful' to vote for Obama and he is bad leader then it is because of any unrighteousness, foolishness and ill-equippedness within him - not  because he is a Muslim.]

And what a sorry sight to be having scuffles and shouting matches outside a ‘church’ about this! Some evangelism! More like antagonism.

November 18, 2008 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | Barack Obama, False Prophets and Teachers, Politics | , , | 47 Comments

47 Comments »

  1. I wonder if those folks at the Church gather alone or together and read the Bible?

    Anyone want to let them know this?

    1Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
    1Co 10:32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God,
    1Co 10:33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

    Ok, well I am not offended but obviously someone is or else I wouldn’t be reading the article?

    Here is some more of the Word on this subject:::>

    Psa 119:162 I rejoice at your word like one who finds great spoil.
    Psa 119:163 I hate and abhor falsehood, but I love your law.
    Psa 119:164 Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous rules.
    Psa 119:165 Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble.
    Psa 119:166 I hope for your salvation, O LORD, and I do your commandments.
    Psa 119:167 My soul keeps your testimonies; I love them exceedingly.
    Psa 119:168 I keep your precepts and testimonies, for all my ways are before you.
    Psa 119:169 Let my cry come before you, O LORD; give me understanding according to your word!

    And finally James:::>

    Jas 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
    Jas 3:14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.
    Jas 3:15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
    Jas 3:16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.
    Jas 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
    Jas 3:18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

    I would say it is good to look to the Way of the Lord. He is Truth. He is the only “hope” in this life from leaving this “life” to be conjoined to His “Life”.

    I also paste hereon what is in my heart for all who have ears to hear and a heart to receive and believe the message of the Gospel of the Kingdom by the Faith once delivered to the Saints and this article points to:::>

    Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
    Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
    Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
    Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
    Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

    Oh yes and by the way, God establishes those in authority by His Way, Truth and Life, Who is the ruler of the kings of the earth!

    Comment by michael | November 18, 2008

  2. The church needs to get on with preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost world and stop the finger pointing.
    We get what we deserve when our salt becomes worthless.

    Comment by Susie | November 18, 2008

  3. This recent election has exposed the worst traits in some professed Christians. They resorted to rumour, innuendo and outright lies in their attempt to discredit Obama prior to the vote. How many times was the Obama/Osama similarity pointed out? How many times was his middle name “Hussein” highlighted – and I wonder what the significance of that was?
    I don’t recall John McCain’s middle name being mentioned. And yes, the Moslem claims such as that mentioned in the article above.
    All of these are aimed at exploiting fear and BIGOTRY. There is nothing Christlike in that kind of behaviour.

    Comment by onesimus | November 18, 2008

  4. Regardless of what Obama is with his relationship with God, he is still the president elect for the US..

    Comment by Lela | November 18, 2008

  5. Thank God for all of you above posting, up until now MOST
    people here have been attacking from the Pharisee camp.

    It it funny when Barack prayers t our Lord, his prayers are the most sincere and humble, and people are determined to destroy him.

    Makes you really appreciate what Jesus and the apostles were up against in their day, with the so-called Gods people.
    My God, most posting here, would have had Paul hung and quartered before he ever had his damascus road experience.

    Comment by Paula | November 18, 2008

  6. Onesimus,

    Have you noticed what God is doing here in NZ, with our new Prime Minister, elected 3 days after Barack.

    Total sweep out of all the old, and a similiar man to Barack on a much smaller scale, but working to bring the Maori, and others,and include them.

    Its interesting how God seems to have to by-pass so many
    who think they are ‘THE-ONES’ to bring about His purposes.
    And He goes and uses someone else.

    Comment by Paula | November 18, 2008

  7. Say what you will about President George W. Bush, but under his leadership my Country has remained free from attacks by terrorists and all other godless animals for the past seven years.

    Comment by Charley | November 19, 2008

  8. Charley –

    You are missing the point, I think. This post is about the religious faith of a president, not his aptness or inaptness for the job – which is kind of the point I am making, that it should be about his aptness for the job! I am saying is not sinful in itself for the country if its leader is not a Christian.

    And even if it were terribly sinful for America not to have a Christian leader, why doesn’t this church in Wichita apply an equal plumbline to George W Bush about his interfaith universalism, or some of the other past presidents for their pseudo professed Christian faiths – as they do to Obama and his Islamic stuff?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  9. Paula

    With respect, why do you consider Obama’s prayers to be ‘the most sincere and humble’? Do you not think he could be playing the religious card and pretending to be a Christian – something that is necessary in American politics, and something many on the left and right have done for years?

    This is not to say Obama is NOT ’sincere’ and searching in his religious quest. Many agnostics, confused interfaithers, Catholics or Muslims or whatever are deeply sincere. I am curious though how you think they guy is genuinely regenerate – apart from his claim to ‘asking Jesus in his life’. Should that regeneration not reflect more in his thinking?

    I happen to think [my opinion only, not God's counsel] that Obama is relatively genuine and sincere for a politician as far as politicans go {they ALL lie and spin] and genuinely does care about the poor and oppressed etc. Saying this does not mean I endorse him or agree with all his politics, as one can also be deeply sincere and well meaning with a ‘good’ heart but sincerely wrong [eg about gay bishops and a woman's right to choose], it does not mean I think he always tells the truth, it does not mean I consider him without deceit. But whatever his religion really is, I consider Obama a better man who is less dark than some others [as leaders go], even so-called professing ‘Christian’ ones.

    And finally, Muslim bashers – remember the Good Samaritan?

    Is Obama saved? No, I do not think so. Does this make him unfit for office? No.

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  10. I used to work with a Muslim woman and you couldn’t find a better co-worker. She was honest, dedicated, and kind. I can be friends with, socialize with and work side by side with many people who are not Christians and still not compromise my beliefs. I’ve never had a Christian supervisor or boss but I could still show them respect and submit myself to them without compromising my faith. We are supposed to be light and salt. We’re supposed to be examples and demonstrate the truth, not force it on people, threaten them, ridicule them or try to manipulate or control them into believing in Jesus.

    Comment by Laurie | November 19, 2008

  11. Tell me, please – who is more poor and oppressed than aborted babies – some of them still living when they are “born?” Please do NOT tell me that the president-elect of this country, who’s first act in office will be to open the door for more baby-killing, is “sincere” in his confession of accepting Jesus. What fellowship has light with darkness (and I don’t mean the color of his skin)?

    Comment by marybee | November 19, 2008

  12. Marybee:

    I am not asking the church to ‘fellowship’ with Barack Obama in this context anymore than they would ‘fellowship’ with anyone else of alternative beliefs – I just want them to realise that his not being a Christian does not disqualify him from political office on this criteria alone, nor is it a sin for Christians to vote for him on this criteria alone.

    As for someone’s sincerity and abortion. If someone is unregenerate they may see things differently and genuinely believe that a woman’s right is more important than a child’s right. They may believe sincerely they side with the oppressed when they defend Roe V Wade, and when they defend gay bishops as their minds have not been transformed through regeneration. I understand this. I have not forgotten how I used to think before I was born again. I cared deeply about injustice and was sincere and had a ‘good heart’ [though all hearts are evil] but saw things very differently than I do now.

    Also coming into this equation is legal stuff. I cannot possibly understand in practice a Christian defence attorney knowingly defending a guilty serial killer and getting him off, though I understand the argument in law for everyone to have the right to a fair trial blah blah blah and someone with legal thinking is conditioned to thinking like this. I know some people with a legal background, even if they dislike and disagree with abortion themselves will defend Roe V Wade because of the law and constituion. So that is an extra thing to throw into the mix as well.

    And of course though abortion is important, it is not the ONLY issue. There are more oppressed than babes in wombs. There are the babes out of wombs!

    I am not so much defending Obama here or his politics – more saying, it is so easy to demonise some people, whether they be ’socialists’, ‘muslims’, ‘pro abortion lobbyists’ or ‘new agers’ – forgetting that these people though not yet saved can be relatively ‘good’, kind, loving, sincere…. and may be deeply religious, albeit in their own ways. We are not to demonise them but reach out to them with the truth.

    Also remember the Good Samaritan – would you rather the ‘Christian’ leading the nation who actually could not care less and passed by on the other side of the road, or the ‘godless’ samiritan who actually cared about his neigbour and did something? Who would we rather meet in hard times?!

    Do people really want to live in a Christian ghetto? With only Christians filling jobs – as the doctors, surgeons, lawyers, hairdressers, mechanics, teachers, politicians. I know many do …. but how biblical is this?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  13. No matter what, the presdent elect of the USA has some wrong moral issues. Not just the abortion issue. But that is a issue (I fell) a christian just can not endorse.

    One of them fictions stories with a moral was e-maied to me today. I will tell the short version.

    Lady goes to her Doctor for help.

    Lady talking- Doctor I am pregnant again and my first child is only a years old. I do not want to have my children so close together. I have come here today in hopes you would help me.

    Doctor fully understanding says- I can see your problem and would be very glad to help you. What I suggest is that we kill the child you are holding in your arms. As the lady stares at the Doctor in horror he continues.

    (1.) That would be the least dangerous way for your own body for us to handle your problem.

    (2.) You will have many months before the arrival of the new baby to rest up.

    (3.) and your children will not be born close together.

    Lady in horror says- Doctor that would be murder!

    AMEN Lady, “I rest my case!”

    Sherry

    Comment by sherry | November 19, 2008

  14. Let me just add this for fairness sake…….
    “Before I became a christian”

    The poster who stated non-christians might see abortion in a different light. Is correct. I did. However, in that time frame there was not the partical birth type happening (that I was aware of. The truth is I didn’t know what type abortions there were.

    I was a non-christian and believed in the rights of a woman to choose. (Is how I would have answered if I had been asked.)

    Really I never thought about it one way or the other. During my without Jesus Christ days when I went to the polls to vote, I voted on who I thought would be the best leader for the wealth of the USA. Keeping USA jobs, the economy, keeping our country safe without wars.

    Sad but true. That is what me and my without Jesus friends talked about and based our vote on. Christians and non-christians do not think alike. What is “a wrong, a sin” for a christian, just might go under the heading of “a right to choose” for a non-christian.

    Sherry

    Comment by sherry | November 19, 2008

  15. Yes partial birth abortion is dreadful, I cannot see how anyone can justify that whatever faith they are or are not.

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  16. What is going on? “Why does your pres have to be a Christian?” Weep, brothers and sisters; his hypocrisy is ours and his pride is ours. This nation is depraved and long deceived by the false gospel of self–The Lord’s judgement will be seen righteous against this nation that takes His name in vain, this people who voted the hopes of their pockets, content to play with muddy bubbles in the sideyard of eternity; so this man comes to power, this man who will consign more millions of children to death and add sin to sin for the morally insane who murder to remove their burden of responsibility for sexual sin, this man who will legislate the abomination of homosexuality…and professing Christians rather than abstain and pray and speak the truth in love and stand firm helped this man gain office. We are to have nothing to do with the works of evil, yet pray for and honor all. All is in the Father’s will. We have profaned His name too long. Judgement comes. Lord, have mercy upon Your church.

    Comment by dleet | November 19, 2008

  17. I’m so happy to hear the comments on this particular post, for the most part. The president is a job, and we are truely blessed to be here iin a time and place where that job really can be done by any color, religion, political party, sex, etc. Do I think he is a wonderfull, Christlike man, with only Glory to God in his heart, no. He probably isn’t, but that’s ok, few of us truely are. However, he is sincere in his care for the needs of this country. You can’t stop people from sinning by changing the laws. You can only give show them the Love of God, and hope that it changes their heart. Because you can’t stop people doing evil things with the law, than a mans oppinions on laws is a moot point. If abortions will happen whether it’s legal or not, than this is not an issue when looking for someone to run a country with much bigger issues. The job of president needs to be done by someone who wants to help the people, especially in a country run of, by, and for the people. That’s the bottom line when it comes to this issue. I have to say one last thing to Charley. We were attacked durring the last presidents administration, and went to war now with a country that isn’t involved, we all know it’s true. So you say he has kept us free from attacks but he didn’t. And we as americans should all do a little more investigating into that attack, and this war. That is if your willing to maybe change your predetermined ideas as to who and what is behind it all. It may not be something you want to hear. I get so tired of the right wing “christian” right agreeing with every republican decision because it’s coming from someone who professes to be a christian (when in actuality they are allying themselves with the Masons, Scull and Cross Bones Society, etc.) This war is not about terrorism, or we would have caught the terrorists, this is the year 2008, we can fly a bomb down a smoke stack from the other side of the country, but we can’t find and old man in a cave? I’m sorry I’m totally off the point now but there is plenty of information out there that says that 911 may be different than what we’ve been led to believe. But in this day and age it’s hard to hide things that big, especially from those who really want to know the truth. That’s it and I’ll get off my soap box, and back on my box for shouting praise at the Lord. I for one am greatfull for God’s plan, and greatfull that the president elect is who he is. I will pray for him and his administration. And I am looking forward to possibly getting out of this rediculous war, and focusing on our country as that is what we should be concerned with. It’s good to want to save the world and to want to give everyone freedom, but at what cost? Christ says how will you look at the mote (sin, problem, flaw) in thy brothers eye and say let me remove it, when you have a mote in your own eye? Oh thou hypocrit, first remove the mote from your own eye than you can remove it from your brothers eye. It is not Americas responsibility or right to govern the world, but it sure feels like we try to alot. If we want to spread our “righteous” message as a country we should then be righteous. Our concern as a country should be the wellfare of our citizens, our concern as christians should be lovung and praising God, and loving our nieghbors. Not making war with them, or forcing our ideals on them. Change comes from the inside out. The message is LOVE! Spread it!

    Comment by Krystal | November 19, 2008

  18. My biggest concern about B.Obama is if he decides we no longer need to (as a nation)support and protect Israel..woe to us if we no longer bless them….you don’t have to be a Christian leader to do that(i believe)

    Comment by John C. | November 19, 2008

  19. I think George Bush is going to win in a walk. I really believe that I’m hearing from the Lord it’s going to be like a blowout election of 2004. It’s shaping up that way. The Lord has just blessed him…. I mean, he could make terrible mistakes and comes out of it. It doesn’t make any difference what he does, good or bad. God picks him up because he’s a man of prayer and God’s blessing him.

    Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, January 2, 2004

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  20. “Individual Christians are the only ones really – and Jewish people, those who trust God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob — are the only ones that are qualified to have the reign, because hopefully, they will be governed by God and submit to Him.”

    Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 11, 1985

    “When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. “What do you mean?” the media challenged me. “You’re not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?” My simple answer is, “Yes, they are.”

    Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p. 218

    “It is interesting, that termites don’t build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into [our] institutions [today] are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have…. The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation.”

    Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986

    “You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don’t have to be nice to them.”

    Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  21. Miriam, you wrote…

    “I am not asking the church to ‘fellowship’ with Barack Obama in this context anymore than they would ‘fellowship’ with anyone else of alternative beliefs – I just want them to realise that his not being a Christian does not disqualify him from political office on this criteria alone, nor is it a sin for Christians to vote for him on this criteria alone.”

    Miriam, I agree with you that being pro-abortion does not disqualify anyone from running for political office. However, I absolutely believe that voting for him, after knowing his stand on abortion, is absolutely sin. Do you think Jesus would have voted for him, knowing he was going to pave the way for the murder of his creation? Can we ignore the Word of God – Thou shalt not murder! It doesn’t matter how “sincere” these people are – it doesn’t change the Word of God.

    As for someone being unregenerate – I’m not talking about these people. Of course they are sincere in their beliefs. I leave them to God and pray for their salvation. I’m also not going to defend Christians who defend murderers in a court of law. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes if they defend murderers and abortionists (who are murderers).

    “And of course though abortion is important, it is not the ONLY issue. There are more oppressed than babes in wombs. There are the babes out of wombs!”

    And what’s with this “oppressed babies out of the womb?” There is oppression of all kinds of people all over the world, and all of it absolutely breaks my heart, as I’m sure it does the Lord’s. This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. We can’t, without going to war, stop oppression of the poor, ethnic groups, old people, Jews, you name it. We CAN stop the oppression of the un-born (and born) in the United States, and the first place we can stop these atrocities is in the polls when we vote.

    “Also remember the Good Samaritan – would you rather the ‘Christian’ leading the nation who actually could not care less and passed by on the other side of the road, or the ‘godless’ Samiritan who actually cared about his neigbor and did something? Who would we rather meet in hard times?”

    What???? Are you comparing Obama – murderer of the unborn – with the good Samaritan? Of course some Christians are jerks and some sinners are wonderful people. And I don’t have any doubt there may be some good things about Obama. Seriously, what are you saying? This has nothing to do with the subject we’re discussing.

    “Do people really want to live in a Christian ghetto? With only Christians filling jobs – as the doctors, surgeons, lawyers, hairdressers, mechanics, teachers, politicians. I know many do …. but how biblical is this?”

    This is a strange question. If Christians lived to themselves, who would go to the nations? Who would share the good news of the love and faithfulness of our God? Who would spread the truth about the issues like abortion? Some of my favorite friends, who are unsaved, are decent, loving, law-abiding people. I wouldn’t not be their friend just because they aren’t saved. I absolutely would pray for them and love them.

    I’m sorry, Miriam, these arguments you have written make no biblical sense to me.

    Comment by marybee | November 19, 2008

  22. Marybee

    I agree with you that being pro-abortion does not disqualify anyone from running for political office. However, I absolutely believe that voting for him, after knowing his stand on abortion, is absolutely sin.

    This post was about his religious faith, NOT his abortion stance. My talking about abortion and sincerity was an aside. The sign outside the church said “America we have a Muslim president. This is sin against the Lord.” not “America we have a pro abortion president. This is sin against the Lord.” which would make perfect sense and would be biblically sound and I would not be rebuking.

    I said his religious faith alone does not make him a bad president, but any bad character/policies etc WOULD. [And aren't strict Muslims anti abortion too which is a contradiction few consider when charging Obama - he cannot be both?!]

    I have never said abortion on demand is right, or that Obama’s political or personal views on it [that I am aware of] are right or righteous. His views on abortion are thus a strike against him, however sincere and well meaning and ‘kind’ he is or is not in promoting them. However, the vote for the presidency is far more complex than the abortion issue alone, and also about far more than abortion. You have to realise too it is not as simple as you have made out. In a scenario where no candidate/party is righteous and have severe faults as was the case in this election, some genuine people who are Christians may have voted for Obama for any matter of reasons as they weighed all the things up and not be sinning because of it and could be by righteous reasoning.

    Some of these reasons they may decide by may include the legal issues discussed of upholding the law even if they do not like it personally as in the case of the proverbial defence attorney defending a known guilty man, and the consideration of other factors than abortion alone. And crucially some will think that Roe v Wade would never be upturned in a million years, even with a Republican majority, so they choose to vote for other social injustices that can be changed.

    Obama supports abortion. But the other side support other unrighteous things too. Both are bad. For some folk, on reflection, the lesser of two evils in their considered opinion is Obama, however much you and much of the white American church may have been conditioned not to see/understand their reasoning. This deciding to vote for Obama is not a sin if they come to this after considered and prayerful reflection. I also would state that the same person coming to the conclusion about voting for McCain or whoever who would not be sinning either.

    You ask “what’s with this “oppressed babies out of the womb?” – come on, you are well aware of at least some of the oppression and injustice that goes on everyday in America on your doorstep, though you may not be aware of why things are as they are and all the contributing political factors. And American policies of course do not just affect America. Credit crunch, anyone? Unrighteous acts in other countries, anyone? You say it starts with babies – well, does that mean in your book we do nothing about anything else til we have the abortion issue sorted out?! That is wrong if so. Yes I want the abortion issue sorted out BUT I’m not going to say to wait around and do nothing about other society wrongs while it is! Abortion is wrong. But so are many other things.

    We can’t, without going to war, stop oppression of the poor

    Boy, you have been brainwashed by the far right and it is not pleasant to hear this kind of talk! Is this what you HONESTLY believe?

    What???? Are you comparing Obama – murderer of the unborn – with the good Samaritan

    Marybee – read more carefully what I actually say. We are talking about the concept of a person based on his religious faith ALONE, the subject of this article – so yes the Good Samiritan is perfectly fitting within this context. I was not saying Obama is the Good Samiritan – though it has to be said in some aspects he may well be and has more of a caring heart than many, even Christians do, for SOME aspects of injustice within society and is the one being the good neighbour and shaming the church in it. Even ‘evil abortionists’ can be ‘good’ and deeply care about the poor – do you think they all have horns, Marybee? Hence my comments about demonising the unregenerate which is rather shortsighted, for like you later admit they can be very sincere et al and are very often the good neighbours where the church is totally absent and just does not care!

    >> And I don’t have any doubt there may be some good things about Obama.

    >>Some of my favorite friends, who are unsaved, are decent, loving, law-abiding people. I wouldn’t not be their friend just because they aren’t saved. I absolutely would pray for them and love them.

    Thank you, exactly.

    You did not understand my point about the Christian ghetto mentality applied to American politics then?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  23. For some reason, the thoughts of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar keep popping in my head.

    Daniel worked for a pagan king, many pagan kings to be exact.

    Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, even though he was a pagan, was still blessed by God for the most part, until God saw it fit to take everything away from him for years until Nebuchadnezzar finally submitted to God.

    God used Daniel to be a righteous beacon to all these pagan rulers and we are to be the same, while praying for their salvation.

    As I’ve heard before, “Legislation doesn’t make righteousness” and just because abortion is abhorrent, sadly, outlawing it won’t make people be righteous. Just as prisoners/criminals find ways to buck the system, where there is an evil will, there is always a way.

    If we address the problem, we’ll cure the symptoms.

    Abortion is a symptom of a much bigger problem.

    Why is there so much abortion today? What leads to abortion?
    Sexual immorality is one problem that leads to this symptom.

    What leads to sexual immorality? Peoples need for stimulation, affection, self-worship, inadequacy, etc.

    They way to solve these problems is Jesus Christ, not by legislation.

    Legislation is a bandaid over a gaping wound. It will not cure it.

    Please don’t take this as me being for abortion, I am not. But I see Miriam’s reasoning. Really read what she is saying and not what you ‘think’ she is saying.

    Comment by servant | November 19, 2008

  24. Miriam – thank you for your answer. I can’t say I agree with all of it, but I understand parts. But as far as the “babes out of the womb” part, as well as me being brainwashed that we have to go to war sometimes to fight injustice, etc., maybe I am. Maybe we need to just “let go and let God???” I find it hard to swallow that we just sit back and let the devil win every time a baby, Israelite, Indonesian, Chinese, Korean, Somalian, Kenyan, Congoan, South African, US black (or mexican or white) boy or girl in the ghetto, etc., is murdered, assaulted, raped or killed, and not war against that injustice.

    All I’m saying is we have laws in the U.S. against murder and assault. And when a child is murdered it’s national news. Yet the thousands of babies aborted each day in this country get no recognition at all. I for one will stand fast in my determination to see abortion abolished and will not vote for anyone who is determined to make more murders possible. Sometimes we just have to take a stand for the area God has put on our hearts, and trust Him to put the other issues on someone else’s hearts, lest we buckle under the heartache.

    You are right about not demonizing the unsaved, although the unsaved are definitely not Godly minded. Still, my heart of hearts will not bend on this abortion issue. Do I believe all women who have aborted their babies are evil? No way (unless they use it as their form of birth control – then their hearts must be really dark). Do I feel feel sorry for the oppressed and poor who feel they have no choice – yes absolutely. In this case, the Church has failed, even in their sincere efforts to help these women. There must be some more effective way to help them.

    The answer to the problems of America, and the world for that matter, is to not appoint leaders who will undermine further the principles God set forth. I can’t vote against God’s Word, just can’t do it. God will have to deal with the rest of this nation.

    Comment by marybee | November 19, 2008

  25. In the last paragraph, I should have said “one” of the answers to the problems of America… There are answers for each situation, and as a Christian who loves God with all my heart, I hope my actions and votes will always be based in His Word. Blessings.

    Comment by marybee | November 19, 2008

  26. Marybee

    I find it hard to swallow that we just sit back and let the devil win every time

    When did I ever say that?! For I think the total opposite!

    I also did not say going to war per se is wrong – I only think that if the particular war fought is unrighteous. However what you said implied we needed to go to literal war to fix all social injustices apart from abortion, which is just not true. There are many political/fiscal/economic remedies to SOME of the numerous problems suffered by the babes out of the womb as well as within it. You also said ‘This has nothing to do with the subject at hand’ – yes it does, it has everything to do with it for it explains why some people voted as they did for Obama and can be considered not sinful for it as upon weighing him up they considered him the lesser of the two evils as they considered the born and unborn. {I am not saying they are necessarily right for their choice, I am just explaining the possible reasoning of some]

    The answer to the problems of America, and the world for that matter, is to not appoint leaders who will undermine further the principles God set forth. I can’t vote against God’s Word, just can’t do it.

    I agree on appointing righteous, wise and godly leaders where possible but apart from, where were these people in this election, there are far more principles than abortion that contradict God’s word!

    John McCain and Sarah Palin did not uphold all the godly ‘principles God set forth in his word either’, so if you say ‘I cannot do it’ about voting against the word of God by voting for Obamma, you are being rather selective with pick and mix theology, singling out issues you feel most deeply about only [eg abortion] without considering perhaps the FULL counsel of God if you then choose to vote for McCain. The ‘I cannot do it’ is also contradicted by you in practice, for according to your OWN line of logic, if you voted for McCain you did vote against God’s word on some other aspects other than abortion as McCain is far from perfectly being aligned with God’s word! I repeat ABORTION ON DEMAND IS WRONG, but there are many other wrongs too that equally defy God’s word! I am not criticising your choice, however you voted, whoever you voted for – however I do point out you use somewhat flawed reasoning here.

    We agree on abortion on demand being wrong, Marybee. We are on the same page. I know it is a very emotive subject. It IS murder, I agree with what you have said about, and if it were a six month old child the abortionists were killing they would be villified in the press as the worst of the worst and locked up for years [or on death row] – but can’t you see the other points other than abortion surrounding this election?

    The unsaved aren’t godly minded [and many of the saved aren't godly minded either!] which is why I said what I said earlier about if you are unregenerate you will see certain issues very differently, even if you are a very sincere, kind and ‘good’ person. Even a new Christian takes time to have all his thinking changed. And with respect, the unsaved ARE evil, though they know how to be good at times. We all are. No-one is good apart from God.

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 19, 2008

  27. How did we move away from the “church sign” topic to this?

    Anyone ever read this before?:::>

    Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali,
    Mat 4:14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
    Mat 4:15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles–
    Mat 4:16 the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.”
    Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

    And as an aside, Miriam, you would certainly come up with a much better, more relevant, heart cutting, brain blowing, soul drenching sign than that one! :)

    Comment by michael | November 19, 2008

  28. I agree with you Miriam.

    My thoughts are that it is true that abortion is murder, and it is a heinous sin, but so is the murder of innocent civilians, which include children and babies in war. Not many Christians that I know have a problem with that. As a born again Christian I find that beyond comprehension. Abortion and homosexual sin have become the mantra of American politicians and sadly also the mantra of the American church, but they surely are not the only sins in the bible.

    May true Christians get on with preaching the gospel to every creature, and pray for the salvation of souls. I for one was very grieved that so many Christians, and others, perceived our current president as a born again Christian. A very false Christianity was presented before the whole world because of that, and I am glad that is going to be over soon. In the meantime let us pray for our president elect. We have elected a president, not a pastor. And another thought I have is that after 8 years of a so-called Christian president, Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land isn’t it?

    Cathy

    Comment by Cathy | November 19, 2008

  29. I give up and will not write anymore about this subject, Miriam. I guess I’m just a black and white person. While no leader is perfect, a murderer of babies I can’t abide. This is a war that no one will win, probably because of the times we’re in. My heart is broken, but the Lord is good. Always! Blessings to you, Miriam. I hear your heart.

    Comment by marybee | November 20, 2008

  30. Welcome to Laodocea! Rub elbows with the tares, and grab yourself a lukewarm bowl of porridge. Love is god here. Join the cult of personality, we got promises galore to pacify your flesh, and we promise not to convict you of your compromise. Sanctity of life? Sanctity of marriage? Surely God will understand why we condone the legislation of what He calls abomination and sin because this man has promised he has a heart for the little people (other than the ones he wants murdered, and those he wants to see legally confirmed in their sin with the full backing of the people so that all may be righteously condemned for their sin).

    Well, you say, these things will happen anyway, might as well back the man with better promises that suit our perceived needs.

    Where is discernment?

    Comment by dleet | November 20, 2008

  31. Miriam,

    I agree with you that pagans will vote and govern like pagans, it is a joy to mix among them, and we must resist every tendency both from within and without to be ghettoized. But we Christians should not vote like pagans, rather, discern the times. Yes, the vote wasn’t all about Roe v Wade, but it was all about the courts. I probably agree with Marybee more on these issues.

    “And crucially some will think that Roe v Wade would never be upturned in a million years, even with a republican majority”,

    Ah, the dread fetus fatigue.
    I don’t agree that the prospects of Roe v Wade were that grim. It was two chairs away, well within reach, of being overturned. In the U.S., the primary tool for any legislative change has been to bypass that branch, and go straight to the courts. Two Supreme Court Justices were hanging to their seats by willpower alone, hoping for a liberal president to be in office so they could resign. This election was all about that last opportunity for a conservative majority in the high court that might have overturned Roe, and it is gone, gone, gone. Now it might as well be a million years away. Also, it seems Obama may have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, so his choices for the Supremes will sail right through, and any other judges he will care to appoint, all equipped with the liberal’s penchant for continual social engineering. I’m with Marybee. I think most Christians who voted for Obama knew those low and high court appointments were at stake, were where governance really happens in this country, and if they ignored their pangs of conscience, and voted for him because he was black, or because their 401K’s tanked, well, “whatever is not of faith, is sin.” They will have to give an account.

    “so they choose to vote for other social injustices that can be changed.”
    They voted for a vague promise of change, which seemed to look very much like a redistribution of wealth. They chose to steal from their neighbor, for when I vote a tax increase I myself will not have to pay, it is theft. Is this how these injustices are changed? . Many of us believe it is the duty of the church to care for the poor, not the government. But to our shame as you have noted, the church steals the widow’s mite.
    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/vision-of-church-robbing-the-widows-mite/

    “However what you said implied we needed to go to literal war to fix all social injustices apart from abortion, which is just not true”
    I think Marybee was trying to convey Paul’s description of the legitimate role a civil authority has in restraining evil with the sword. It is not always merely symbolic– it includes going to war. Romans13, which says, “For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing, He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrong-doer.”

    The government is God’s servant. Who is our God? He says “It is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc.” ( Is. 54:16.) Yes, man will be judged for his unrighteous wielding, but we forget that God is sovereign over all nations, He judges one and then judges the nation he used to judge the other in a continuous chain He works toward his eternal purpose. He permitted George Bush (regardless of GWB’s ultimate motivation, which if unrighteous, will be judged as well) to wield the sword against Saddam Hussein and his sadistic shredding of human flesh as if it were paper. The blood of 150,000 Kurds also cried from the ground, and it is ten times as much crying out to him from here in America, and so now, the sword curves back upon us from the Middle East.

    Alas! It bends toward me and mine, but I will never accuse Him of wrong.

    Comment by Karen Butler | November 20, 2008

  32. Cathy,

    “And another thought I have is that after 8 years of a so-called Christian president, Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land isn’t it?”

    I think you need to brush up on your Civics a little bit. (Cliff’s Notes has a good version, I plan to use it with my High School boys.)

    The president cannot just bypass existing legislation, we have a beautiful system in place where the powers are balanced, in theory anyway. Bush cannot just eliminate Roe v Wade,because he wants to, not even by executive order.

    We do not live under a dictatorship. Yet.

    Comment by Karen Butler | November 20, 2008

  33. Bless you Cathy,

    You said that so well.
    I love your close walk with the Lord, and your clear
    sight.

    Comment by Paula | November 20, 2008

  34. Karen – thank you so much for putting into words what I could not express myself. I’m not analytical, so I talk from my emotions, but you said exactly what I was trying to say, and I appreciate it. God bless you.

    Comment by marybee | November 20, 2008

  35. “say what you will about president george w. bush, but under his leadership my country has remained free from attacks by terrorists and all other godless animals for the past seven years.”

    INSTEAD BUSH HAS TERRORIZED ANOTHER COUNTRY, WAGING A WAR RESULTING IN AS MANY AS 97,231 IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS ALONE

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  36. “tell me, please – who is more poor and oppressed than aborted babies?”

    PERHAPS THOSE WHO LIVE THEIR ENTIRE LIVES IN BONDAGE, CRUELLY ENSLAVED, TORTURED, PERSECUTED, STARVED, BEATEN, SUBJUGATED, REPRESSED, HARASSED, AND ABUSED BY TYRANNOUS AUTHORITIES AND SOCIAL CIRCUMSTANCES BEYOND THEIR OWN CONTROL

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  37. “so this man comes to power, this man who will consign more millions of children to death and add sin to sin for the morally insane who murder to remove their burden of responsibility for sexual sin, this man who will legislate the abomination of homosexuality..”

    LET’S NOT FORGET THE ROLE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES—AND SPECIFICALLY HOW THAT RELATES TO CONGRESS.

    as much as cheney has tried to extend the reach and power of the executive branch, OUR CONSTITUTION IS CLEAR: IT IS NOT THE ROLE OF THE PRESIDENT TO MAKE LAWS BUT RATHER TO SEE THROUGH THEIR ENFORCEMENT, TO “take care that the laws be faithfully executed”. THIS IS HIS MAIN RESPONSIBILITY.

    P.O.T.U.S. has only the power [1]to serve as commander-in-chief, [2]to grant reprieves and pardons, [3]to make treaties, [4]to appoint supreme court judges/ambassadors/other public ministers and consuls, [5] to veto bills passed by the legislative branch, and [6]convene/adjourn congress “ON EXTRAORDINARY OCCASIONS”.

    in addition P.O.T.U.S. takes on the responsibility to give congress state of the union addresses, and may “RECOMMEND TO THEIR CONSIDERATION” [key phrase] measures that he judges as “NECESSARY AND EXPEDIENT”.

    THE PRESIDENT cannot MANDATE OR LEGISLATE AND every DECISION HE MAKES MUST BE APPROVED BY BOTH THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. EVEN PRESIDENTIAL VETOES ARE not final AND CAN BE DISCARDED.

    IN RECENT YEARS, PRESIDENTIAL POWER HAS BEEN EXTENDED IN BLATANT OPPOSITION TO THE CONSTITUTION BUT THERE STILL REMAINS IN PLACE A SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES THAT, FOR THE MOST PART, MUST BE ADHERED TO.

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  38. “obama – murderer of the unborn” vs. “you are right about not demonizing the unsaved”

    UNDENIABLE CONFLICT/HYPOCRISY BETWEEN
    the desire to paint everything black and white, right and wrong [often judging hearts/motives], to draw the line “SOMEWHERE”
    AND
    the desire to appear accepting, forgiving, approachable—’christ-like’

    more often than not, RESULTS IN FAILURE and comes off as “holier than thou” SOME KIND OF ‘RIGHTEOUS’ BIGOT trying too hard to prove their tolerance = futile

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  39. “my biggest concern about b.obama is if he decides we no longer need to (as a nation) support and protect israel..woe to us if we no longer bless them..”

    my biggest concern for future issues surrounding israel is that they be held equally responsible, along with palestinian authority—as it may be, for the unrelenting and devastating circle of violence that grips the region and for perpetuating that vicious cycle.

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  40. “we can’t, without going to war, stop oppression of the poor, ethnic groups, old people, jews, you name it.”

    we CAN stop world-wide oppression WITHOUT going to war.
    THIS CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH.

    as shocking an idea to use peaceful methods to achieve peace in a post-hiroshima/nagasaki world may be, it is NOT utopian by any means.

    THIS IS NOT TO SUGGEST AN END TO ALL WARS IN FAVOR OF THE PACIFICATION OF TERRORISTS AND TYRANTS, but should be a reminder of how small and often-unacknowledged actions on local/community/state level can result in a nationwide shift of attitudes and priorities.

    “in politics, an organized minority is a political majority.”

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  41. Video here on this church and its sign

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Cra1niELVCQ&eurl

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | November 20, 2008

  42. “sanctity of life? where is discernment?”

    the same group of people who would scorn voting for a man who is pro-choice have no qualms approving and advocating the candidacy of another who demonstrates the value he has for human life by unapologetically joking about what would result in bodies strewn on the streets in tehran—”bomb-bomb-bomb-bomb-bomb iran”
    “LEST WE FORGET, THE BETTER OF TWO EVILS IS STILL EVIL”
    we CANNOT compromise morality

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  43. so what business does “light” have doing anything with “darkness”?

    “i can love the people who hold false opinions but i don’t have to be nice to them”???
    shameful

    DID JESUS REQUIRE THE BAPTISM OF ZACCHAEUS BEFORE HE WENT INTO HIS HOME AND BROKE BREAD WITH HIM?

    DID JESUS ASK MARY MAGADALENE TO PUBLICLY REPENT AND ASK FORGIVENESS FOR HER PROSTITUTION BEFORE HE PUBLICLY DEFENDED HER FROM PERSECUTION?

    when the scribes of the pharisees saw that he was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to his disciples, “why is he eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?” and hearing this, jesus said to them, “it is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; i did not come to call the righteous, but the sinners.”—mark 2:16-17

    Comment by llllretchllll | November 20, 2008

  44. Welcome retch, and thank you for representing the real Jesus.

    Comment by Paula | November 20, 2008

  45. “my biggest concern about b.obama is if he decides we no longer need to (as a nation) support and protect israel..woe to us if we no longer bless them..”

    Is this concern for your comfort.. or for the welfare of Israel? I think Christians need to really search their hearts on “why” they are concerned for Israel and abortion.
    Based on what I see, it is usually because of what God might do to “us” moreso than genuine love for “them”.

    May Gods will be done.

    Comment by suzie | November 20, 2008

  46. “my biggest concern about b.obama is if he decides we no longer need to (as a nation) support and protect israel..woe to us if we no longer bless them..”

    God’s Isreal is not a chunk of land in the mediteranian. Not all of the descendents of Abraham are Isreal only those of the Faith. When Christ came He gave us all… ALL a cahnce to become a part of God’s Isreal by a grafting into the tree thereof. This agian is done with Faith on Jesus Christ. Isreal is not a nation to God, it is all of God’s people through faith in Jesus Christ. God does not need us as a nation to protect this peice of land and the people fighting over it. God knows what he is doing. And by the way this whole world will pass away. After the thousand years in heaven with God for those in the first resurection the New Jeruselem God’s City will descend upon the Earth and everyone will be resurected and satan will be let loose and they will all try to make war with God. He will destroy all of them and sin and death and Satan (note he does not burn them forever in hell fire, he simply destroys them and the spirit will return to the Father). After this God creats a new Earth and new Heavens. Therefore in an eteral picture of things Isreal on this planet along with everything else will be wiped out. So why do we as a nation need to protect it, especially when God’s Isreal is not a nation but a group of people in the Faith having faith in the Lord.

    Comment by Krystal | November 21, 2008

  47. I found this article on the true Israel etc. It’s long but very informative. Just thought I would pass it along.

    http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?ID=21%7C21%7C440

    Cathy

    Comment by Cathy | November 22, 2008


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