Is Physical Healing In The Atonement? « End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

Is Physical Healing In The Atonement?

Discuss. What do you all think?

December 20, 2008 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | Healing, signs and wonders | bible, christianity, church, miracles, theology | 232 Comments

232 Comments »

Healing in the Atonement? Laying a debate to rest
November 24, 2008 by ian vincent

I’ve gotta back track on this one. I used to believe that healing was part of the Atonement – that is, that the Atonement is the basis by which we can pray in faith for healing in Jesus name.

Then, this morning I feel I got a revelation, quite unexpectedly. I feel the Lord directed my attention to all the times He physically healed people PRIOR to the Atonement; from the earliest days; from the days of the Israelites (obedient ones) who walked in perfect health, protected from all diseases, as God promised them:

….If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee. Exodus 15:26

God was the LORD that heals : Elijah raising the dead, David’s many references to God as a healer and a protector from disease, and many other OT healings; right up to the healing ministry of our LORD Jesus Christ, all prior to Him making Atonement for sin.

And, all these healings were perfect healings, and all those healed eventually died; receiving healing didn’t give them immortality of the body.

And here is my point: The Atonement did not change the way that God physically heals people, nor His willingness to heal. He heals the same way today as He did before He sent His Son into the world and before He made Atonement for the sin of the world.

Yet, the Atonement radically changed the way in which God deals with sin, and the OT saints were only perfected when their sins were atoned for at Calvary ; then, the people of faith, of the Old Covenant, entered the New Covenant :

….And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb. 11:39-40.

During our LORD Jesus’ earthly ministry (prior to His Atonement) He could perfectly heal the sick, but He could not make sinners into new creations in Him by the Holy Spirit. Only after He made Atonement for our sin could He make us new creations in Him, by sending the Holy Spirit to indwell us forever.

Therefore, physical healing is something distinct from the Atonement, and this harmonizes with this Scripture:

When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Matt. 8:16-17

…That is, He was bearing our sicknesses before the Atonement, before He bore our sins, and also, His baring our sicknesses cannot be understood as Him atoning for our sicknesses : Jesus didn’t become sick for us, but He did become sin for us:

…For he has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor. 5:21

The benefits (results) of the Atonement are eternal benefits, whereas physical healing is only a temporary benefit.

Where’s the application in this? Even if it’s only that the argument (and doubts) over whether there is healing in the Atonement is laid to rest, that would be a good thing. There may be other applications also.

Comment by ianvincent | December 20, 2008
If you accept the Gospel and Person of Jesus Christ it is:

MT 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,
8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.”

JMS 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

1PT 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed.

Comment by susan | December 20, 2008
Yes. When Matthew saw Jesus healing people – he said it was a fulfillment of Isaiah 53:4-5. Isaiah 53, Matt 8:16-17, 1 Peter 2:24 are the classic atonement passages.

Salvation is also part of the atonement yet everyone isn’t saved. Salvation must be received by grace through faith. So with healing. Salvation’s truth does not rest upon the one who doesn’t receive it – neither does healing’s truth rest upon the ones who don’t get healed.

So why doesn’t everyone get healed? Why doesn’t everyone get saved? Salvation is received by believing that Jesus did on the cross was enough – so too with healing.

“But I know someone who prayed and wasn’t healed!” I know alot of people who have prayed and didn’t get saved. Others claim to be saved but show no difference in their lives. Does this negate the truth of salvation? Certainly not!

God’s name is Jehovah Rapha – I am the Lord that healeth thee. It’s His name and He never changes. If He was the Healer then He is the Healer. If He did it for one He will do it for all for He is no respecter of persons.

Jesus always did the will of His Father – and He always healed those who came to Him in faith. Healing is a good thing – Jesus went about doing good and healing. When He healed the man with the withered hand in the middle of a service – He asked – is it ok to do good on the Sabbath?

Why don’t all get healed? Why don’t all walk in perfect holiness and sanctification before heaven? Because we’re human and not perfect yet. That doesn’t change the fact that it is God’s will to heal.

Jesus said “I am willing, be thou made whole.”

Comment by Javanut | December 20, 2008
Disagree. I cannot put it better or in any other way than this, by John MacArthur, concerning Matt. 8:17 and Isa 53, and later 1 Peter 2:4:

“Well, there’s no way, in reading the prophecy in the Old Testament you would ever conclude that the comment there, referring to the exodus of Israel out of Egypt, had anything to do with a Messiah coming hundreds of years later who would be taken out of Egypt and brought back to the land of Israel. So, the New Testament writers do exercise inspired authority over the interpretation and application. I think the truth was inherent in the Old Testament text. I think the intention of God was there, but I don’t think there would be any way to understand the fullness of that intention without what the New Testament says. You would never know, “Out of Egypt have I called my Son,” was a reference to the Messiah, until that’s what happened, and then, you say, “wow, there it was!” But, the Old Testament writer might be looking at that in the terms of 1 Peter searching to see what it was really meaning because he had no way to understand that.

So, when you come to Isaiah 53, and you read, “He took our infirmities, and He bore our sicknesses,” we understand that the context of Isaiah 53 is talking about our sins, our iniquities because the rest of the verses all refer to that. But, when you get to the New Testament, and Jesus begins to do His healing ministry, you have previews of coming attractions in that, because now the text and all the while was intended to mean that, but now the text is expanded in its interpretation to cover not only our sins, but our physical healing.

I hasten to add, you believe that in the atonement you receive physical healing. We all do. It’s not now that we receive that. It’s at our glorification. And, what Jesus was demonstrating in His miracle power was that He not only had power over the souls of men, He had power over the bodies of men. And, that He is the one who can not only give eternal life to the soul, but He can give eternal life to the body, as demonstrated by His power over all that deforms and debilitates and destroys the physical.

…all those people who believe that die. All of them. Unless they live to the rapture, they all die. So, if there was physical healing in the atonement, then it was an incomplete atonement. And, they’ve got a problem. If you tell me there was physical healing in the atonement, and that the atonement was designed to heal my diseases, I’m having a hard time with that one because I’m not, I’m not getting the healing. And, I’m getting older. And, I’m going to die. Now, if that’s how it is with the promise of my physical healing, where is my hope for the promise of my spiritual healing? Is that the same thing? Once you start defining the work of the atonement in temporal terms, you have a problem, because, even now, I am saved, I am righteous by virtue of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, but I’m certainly not what I’m going to be. This isn’t it. I am not now what He died to make me. Is that right? Either spiritually or physically. And, we all stumble through life and, as we heard in the testimonies, battling with the flesh, and battling with illness, and disease, and all those kinds of things. And the atonement was designed for our ultimate glory, and our souls’ ultimate glorification as well as a glorified body like the resurrection body of Jesus Christ. In that sense, our ultimate, final healing is in the atonement, and Jesus was giving it, you know, widespread demonstration of the fact that He had the power over that realm just as He had power over the spiritual realm and the souls of men…You’ll never be healed physically by being given the glorified body of Christ, like Christ unless you’ve been healed of your sin. Right? I mean, you’re not going to enter into the glories of heavenly perfection unless your sins have been dealt with. So, you are, first of all, healed from the disease of sin, but, you also understand, we’ve been healed of sin, but we’re all dying from it. Is that not true? I have been forgiven all my sin and I know that. I have been delivered from the power of sin, from it’s ability, I’ve been delivered from the penalty of sin, its ability to control my life, and, yet, I’m dying from the effect of sin. I could say it the same in the physical. I have been given a healing. Physically, I will, one day, be perfect in a glorified body, and yet my body is still dying, until I get to that other world and realize the full significance of His atoning work. “

Comment by Emi | December 20, 2008
What happened on the Cross?

WOF says that God (or the devil) put all the sickness of the world on Jesus.

Does anyone believe that Jesus became afflicted with every sickness while hanging on the Cross?

Jesus healed perfectly before the Atonement, as He still does today. The Atonement didn’t change that.

Comment by ianvincent | December 20, 2008
Ian

I remember Ian Andrews [a famous healing evangelist] teaching that each of the stripes [recieved in the whipping and scurging prior to the cross] represented a class of major illness or something to that effect, and each of Jesus stripes all together made up all the illnesses found within mankind kind of thing. Hence the Word of Faithers parroting ‘by his stripes I am healed’ as their meme.

I have no idea if this is true and medical.

Some others [maybe Ian Andrews too] also say the blood shed at Gethesemane when the drops fell to the ground heals the mind, as with the crown of thorns etc. I have heard quite a few people say all the same kind of thing.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 20, 2008
Hi Miriam,

I don’t know what to say about that, yeah, i’ve read those things but i never gave it much thought.

I’ve been healed in the past, when i believed in healing in the atonement : such a belief need not hinder a person’s genuine faith in God’s willingness and promises to heal.

Before the Atonement, Jesus well and truly established that it is the Father’s good and perfect will that those who are in His covenant should be healed and well, by healing all.

This was already established in the Law.

But the ‘healing in the atonement’ belief can lead to wacky things – denial of reality, and even shipwrecked faith.

Comment by ianvincent | December 20, 2008
Apostle Peter clearly tell us:

1 PT 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1:24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
1:25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.”
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

1PT 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed.

So the word of God by which we were born again tells us clearly that by Jesus stripes we were healed? Then it’s an indisputable fact whether we believe it or not or partake of it or not!

Comment by susan | December 20, 2008
Ian – indeed, which is why I bring it up.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 20, 2008
Of course, as a reminder – I have been miraculously healed in the past. But it is also true to say that I am not always healed when I pray – yet my faith is the same, if not more because of the past experience of instant healing. So what can we say to that?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 20, 2008
Susan

I think part of the debate raises as to what ‘healed’ actually means in this context, and also whether the fullness of it happens now or in eternity.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 20, 2008
But the ‘healing in the atonement’ belief can lead to wacky things – denial of reality, and even shipwrecked faith.

Not if your view is a healthy perspective. If I witness to 100 people and 10 accept Jesus as their Savior – does that negate the message of salvation? No. If 100 people pray for healing and 10 actually receive it – does that negate the message of healing? Again – no.

Try reading Romans 4 – Abraham saw the deadness in his own body and his wife Sarah’s – yet still believed God. That is true faith – not denying the symptoms but believing what God said over them.

Comment by Javanut | December 20, 2008
And, we would be foolish to put physical healing into the same category as the forgiveness of sins.

There’s no margin for error, with the forgiveness of sins : either you believe God in Christ forgave you or you don’t.

And if you do, then you ARE forgiven.

Not so cut and dried with healing. You can claim that you “were healed” (by his stripes) and declare you are healed, and still NOT be healed.

Not so with forgiveness.

When i say “i am forgiven” it’s not “i hope i’m forgiven”, i’m declaring a fact.

But how can you declare that you “were healed” when you are still sick?

Comment by ianvincent | December 20, 2008
This is something sickness/healing is NOT

http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/the-heresy-of-st-bernadette-soubirous-alexandrina-da-costa/

and http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/mother-teresa-of-calcuttas-blasphemy/

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 20, 2008
I have a friend who uses Isaiah 53 like a mantra and repeats itself to her over and over when she is sick, denying she is ill. She is Word of Faith/rhema background. If she says ‘how are you’ to people, they know not to answer “I have a cold” or “I am ill” because they then get an earful from her and are told to positively confess “I am well”. She really is very harsh indeed with folks that are sick and lacks understanding and tact – but she does mean well.

She refuses to ever go to the doctor, and generally keeps good health as far as I know – though I am guessing she would get medical attention if she were seriously ill.

Contradictory though, her also rhema husband is a dentist. Doesn’t positive confession and healing in the atonement apply to teeth and the mouth equally?!

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 20, 2008
I’m in agreement with the following that I paste in full with link following.

By His Stripes Are We Healed?

There is a popular teaching today, especially amongst Pentecostals and Charismatics, that Christ on the cross took upon Himself all our diseases and, subsequently, all physically afflicted believers, through the exercise of personal faith in this “truth,” may realize a divine healing. However, what must be honestly and seriously considered is if this teaching is Biblically based or not.

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for TEACHING, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (Tim. 3:16-17).

————————————————————
Does Scripture support the doctrine that at the cross Christ took upon Himself our diseases to the effect that if a Christian conjures up enough faith or the right faith-formula the reality of Christ’s work on the cross will be invoked and he will be healed of physical afflictions? Let’s take a look:
————————————————————

The Scriptural basis for this doctrine is the well known Isaiah chapter 53, verse four:

4 “Surely our griefs (or, sickness) He Himself bore, and our sorrows (or, pain) He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

An Apostolic Teaching?

Interestingly, only Matthew references Isa. 53:4 and it is important to recognize that he applies it not to Christ’s suffering and atoning death on the cross, but only to His healing ministry to national Israel (see Matt. 8:17).

Isaiah 53 starts out by describing One who was to grow up before God like a tender shoot, not stately or attractive, despised and forsaken, a man of sorrows (pains) and acquainted with grief (sickness). Still describing this One he goes on to say in verse four, “surely our griefs (sicknesses, with which this One was acquainted) He Himself bore.”

Matthew, when referencing verse four, employs the Greek word “bastazo” for “bore.” It means to carry as a burden, such as to bear one another’s burdens. And so Matthew is saying that Jesus, according to His mercy and the power of God, being acquainted with Israel’s sicknesses, and as their Messiah (see Lk. 7:18-23), healed their sick and demon-possessed (Matt. 8:16-17). No mention of this being a work of atonement on Christ’s cross.

————————————————————
Biblical Facts:

1. None of the N.T. writers reference Isa. 53:4 to the atoning work of Christ on the cross.

2. Luke does not reference Isa. 53:4 as being fulfilled when Paul healed many Gentiles on his missionary journeys.

3. None of the writers of the New Testament Epistles teach the doctrine that Christ took upon Himself our diseases on the cross and, subsequently, based on this act, by faith, we may claim physical healings.

————————————————————

Isaiah’s Suffering Servant

Isaiah does not address the DEATH of the suffering Servant until verse five:

5 “But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.”

Here Isaiah states that He was pierced through “for our transgressions” and “crushed for our iniquities.”

“But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him” (vs.6b)

This is atonement language. It is dealing with transgressions and iniquities. Disease is not the issue nor is it mentioned.

A Guilt Offering

“But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself a guilt offering.” (vs. 10a)

A “guilt offering” has to do with sins, not disease. Unlike sin, disease is not a moral issue between man and God requiring the death of His Son.

“Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors” (vs. 12b).

The sacrificial death of Christ dealt with man’s sins. “For the wages of sin is death.” Some may acquire disease because of a sinful lifestyle, however, it is sin that separates man from God, not disease:

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23).

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners (not diseased ones), Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).

Scripture reveals it was reconciliation with God that was provided for the sinner through Christ’s work on the cross:
“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life” (Rom. 5:8-10).

It is sin that made Adam’s posterity “ungodly” – not disease. His shed blood justifies the ungodly through faith and guarantees our safekeeping from the future wrath of God.

The Consequence…Not The Cause

Disease is a consequence of man’s fall in the Garden, however, nowhere is it Biblically taught that man’s diseases were atoned for through the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ. His death and shed blood were to adjudicate the moral issue centered around man’s sinful state acquired through Adam and the individual’s personal sins.

“..and He Himself bore our sins (not diseases) in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His stripes we are healed” (1 Pet. 2:24).

Notice Peter references “by His stripes we are healed” to “sin” and the believer subsequently living to righteousness. According to Scripture, physical healings are not based on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, but on the power/will of God according to His grace/mercy. That is why when sinners believe in Christ they are, at that time, pardoned forever of sins but are not instantly healed of all diseases.

Miraculous healings and other miracles attested to the veracity of the Apostolic message after the ascension of Christ, but the Apostolic message never taught Christ bore our diseases on the cross.

Muddy the Waters

A popular talk radio host, Hank Hanegraaff, often repeats an adage that “healing was in the atonement but not guaranteed.” Two immediate problems that arise from his cliche are (1) by that statement, though Mr. Hanegraaff does not teach that Christ bore or diseases on the cross, nevertheless, he agrees with the erroneous notion that disease is a moral obstacle between God and man requiring the blood sacrifice of Christ which, as shown above, has absolutely no Biblical support; and (2) if one may suggest that healing is “in the atonement” but “not guaranteed,” then why couldn’t one just as easily claim forgiveness of sins is in the atonement but not guaranteed?

Probably Mr. Hanegraaff is suggesting that because of the atonement of Christ God will eventually bring in the eternal state of righteousness where sickness and disease will not exist. This is true. However the absence of physical infirmities in the eternal state is not because “healing was in the atonement,” but because those reconciled to God and redeemed from sin through faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross on their behalf will then be existing in their glorified bodies. A gracious, creative act of God, not a “healing” act of God based on Christ’s atoning blood sacrifice for diseases.

Lastly it should be pointed out that all of Christ’s healings were accomplished before He went to the cross. It is never taught or even suggested in Scripture that Christ was morally righteous to heal Israel’s physical afflictions because the cross was anticipated. He never said to those whom He healed, “your disease has been atoned for.” Nor should we!

Written by: Gary Nystrom

http://www.biblicist.org/bible/healed.shtml

See also:

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf10.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/Wf9.htm

Comment by BB | December 20, 2008
I agree with the following on this matter.

http://www.biblicist.org/bible/healed.shtml

Comment by BB | December 20, 2008
Strong’s Concordance #7495 taken from Isaiah 53 – Raphah – a prim. root; prop. to mend (by stiching), i.e. (flg.) to cure: – cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair x thoroughly, make whole.

Does not say whether it is physical or spiritual.

Ian, I can see what you’re saying. I always felt such guilt and rejection when I wasn’t healed the WOF way.

Comment by marybee | December 20, 2008
Thank you, ianvincent, for that helpful post, and to Emi for posting that quote from John MacArthur–that is what I was going to say to Yuman, that I have never heard that they are living forever in Argentina, yet!

Javanut, there is no healthy perspective on this. There is only a shipwrecked faith, because if God heals all, when a brother dies, it is because our faith is not good enough, but Jesus clearly taught that it was only mustard-seed faith that is required.

I know this from personal experience, this crisis of faith is what happened when my brother suddenly died of a stroke, despite the fasting and praying and annointing and then the crying out when he was code blue. I want to slap anyone who tells me my faith wasn’t good enough. It is spiritual abuse. I remember my sisters remorse when he died, she kept saying, I should have never left him, I should have…. remembering all those miraculous stories on the 700 Club. It took so much prayer and counsel to bring her back from that abyss.

It goes back to a man-centered vision of prayer for healing, as if God can’t do anything unless our faith is at that perfect degree that will guarantee results, like Dutch Sheets’ pathetic prayer bowls that need to be filled before God can move. Nah! God is sovereign, and He is faithful. Hallelujah! God makes it ever so simple to follow him. Every day I read the post about the dilemma of Hudson Taylor until he had his own revelation:

“Have (or hold) the faithfulness of God“: surely it was a passage he had never seen before? Turning to the corresponding words in English he read (Mark 2:22): “Have faith in God.” Ah, that was familiar enough; and something within him whispered, ’the old difficulty!’ How gladly would he have and increase in faith in God, if only he knew how! But this seemed entirely different. It laid the emphasis on another side of the matter in a way he found surprisingly helpful. It was not “have” in your own heart and mind, however you can get it, “faith in God” but simply “hold fast, count upon His faithfulness”; and different indeed he saw the one to be from the other.”

Every day, facing the daunting challanges to my faith, I read that, and remind myself how my loving Father has made my way easy, and my burden light. Just to hold fast his faithfulness– I can do that!

Comment by Karen Butler | December 20, 2008
I find the healing of the paralytic in Mark 2 instructive on this matter. Christ healed the man of his physical malady in a miraculous way as a sign of His ability and authority to heal the soul by forgiving sin. All healings by Christ pointed to His power to forgive sins and heal the sinner of the cause of disease and illness…..which is sin.

Could it be that the reason we don’t see more true miraculous healings is because they are seen as end in themselves rather than a sign of Christ’s authority to forgive sins and restore a soul to reconciliation with God?

Notice the healing with oil in James 5 connects miraculous healing with God’s power to forgive sins that is even MORE miraculous!

Comment by BB | December 20, 2008
And, we would be foolish to put physical healing into the same category as the forgiveness of sins. IAN VINCENT

But the bible and Jesus puts physical healing in the same category as the forgiveness of sins:

PS 103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases,

MT 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
9:3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?
9:5 “For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
9:6 “But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”-then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
9:7 And he arose and departed to his house.

Jesus demonstrated that it was as easy for him to forgive sins as it was to heal a person! And Jesus Christ is the unchanging Healer and healing is the children’s bread:

MT 15:25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
15:26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
15:27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

So we have the right to to repent from all our sins and to seek physical healing from Jesus at any time as well as other benefits that are ours including redemption, tender mercies, good things, renewal, righteousness and justice!

PS 103:4 Who redeems your life from destruction,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
103:5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
103:6 The LORD executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.

Comment by susan | December 20, 2008
I have spoken about this before, but will repeat that my sister is married to an avid adherent of Kenneth Copeland et al. He too refuses to listen if she says she is ill, and blames her for her own illness. A few years ago she ended up in Intensive Care (fortunately she was staying with me and so I took her to A&E) and my family gathered to pray for her. I’ll never forget it…he struggled to pray and when he did, he prayed along the lines of ‘you know Lord that J just needs to ask you and believe’ !!!Their marriage continues to suffer and she no longer goes to church. He denies all reality and blames everything on her ‘negative confession’. I have seen people miraculously healed (sometimes those with little faith!) and I have lost my Father, and many others, despite fervent prayer and amazing faith. The answer to the question? I’m no scholar but I believe Romans 8:28, and I trust that when I see my Jesus face to face, I will understand why I lost my Dad when I was 16, and that is enough.

Comment by Elizabeth A | December 20, 2008
I was once member of a faith extreme group, where you would deny the sickness after praying, saying these are lying symptoms. Any usage of medication or going to a doctor was frowned upon even it was only a cast for healing a broken bone. Some children even suffered so much that I won’t describe it here. It has done much damage to their walk with God and all because of an exaggerated emphasis on faith.

Comment by GetYourOwnDeliverance | December 20, 2008
Healing is in our redemption. All discussion of people misapplying the word or experiences contrary to the Word is irrelevant. We have to look at the Word of God FIRST, and then let the Word determine our experience, not let our experience determine how we interpret the Word.

The Word is clear: Jesus bore our sicknesses and carried our diseases, and by His stripes we were healed. (Isa. 53, 1 Peter 2.24). If you want to explain away these Scriptures with tradition or your experiences, you have just shown that experience means more to you than the Word.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | December 20, 2008
Ben,

You have violated every principle of hermeneutics with that statement. One scripture forming a whole doctrine? One?

And the damage that this does! So my faith isn’t good enough, and my brother died because we just didn’t do good enough, and the five babies born one by one with a rare genetic disease, I watched dying every time despite fervent prayer of the whole believing body, and then the last straw for me, the godly worship leader I watched slowly die of cancer despite the prayers of not only of our body, but the fervent prayers of the body worldwide! That was the last time I talked face to face with that pastor, when that man had died, and he preaches that God heals ALL.

I couldn’t take this nonsense anymore. My brother hadn’t died yet, and this hadn’t got so raw to my bones,

Comment by Karen Butler | December 20, 2008
This is a cruel doctrine that elevates man and violates the nature of God, that he is sovereign. I hate the effect it has on the faith of those victimized by it. I knew when I heard it preached for the first time from the pulpit the church was dangerous, and we could no longer expose our children to it. After 15 years of praying for a turnaround, we left.

Ben, are you going to live forever in that body of yours? You’ve eaten of the tree of life somewhere in London? I hope you aren’t the same Ben who spoke so eloquently about love once on this blog, please say you’re not, I have been praying for you, and I can not bear to hear of another pastor who has drunk the Kool-Aid.
It isn’t life on that tree you are eating, Ben. It is death.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 20, 2008
Susan,

So we have the right to to repent from all our sins and to seek physical healing from Jesus at any time as well as other benefits that are ours including redemption, tender mercies, good things, renewal, righteousness and justice!

Yes, we may earnestly seek these things, and I certainly do, and have seen some in my life, including miraculous physical healing. But I am waiting in faith further restoration, because health and prosperity are not guaranteed this side of eternity. His prescence and comfort and rest through the pain, is. Ultimately our perservering faith through the trials is so much more glorifying to God than this ridiculous smiley-face gospel peddled from the pimping pulpits of prostituted prosperity churches!

Jesus was a man of sorrow, acquainted with grief. And I have become so much better aquainted with Him through my sorrow. I wouldn’t change that for any outward-seeming prosperity.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 20, 2008
I am having a major faith crisis with this issue right now. I have so many questions! God promises that our prayers will be effective if we have faith, but so many times I have seen people pray with faith and not be healed. Was I deceived in thinking that we had faith when we prayed? Surely we had faith at least as big as a mustard seed. How can we pray for healing with faith if we can’t trust that we will be healed? Isn’t it always God’s will to heal those who ask with faith? And, what is the gift of healing? Does having the gift of healing just mean that you alot of faith?
I wish God would just write me an e-mail and explain all this to me.

Comment by April | December 20, 2008
Just because people use a few cliches, or read a verse once and try to claim it – doesn’t mean they acted in faith. We will never know this side of heaven why some get healed and others don’t because we can’t see their heart – only God can and it’s between God and them – it’s not for us to judge.

I will continue witnessing to people even though all don’t get saved just as I will continue to pray for people to get healed even though all don’t get healed. I don’t deny physical symptoms – I believe in medicine and God working together.

The truth about healing is there – whether or not people have applied it with wisdom or not. Faith works by love – and without a compassion for the sick no “faith confessions” will work. Real compassion focuses on getting the person well – whether that takes a doctor, surgeon, dentist or a dab of oil

Real love doesn’t condemn people for lack of faith – it sits by their bedside and wipes their brow. Real love ministers to the person until they are well, by whatever means necessary.

Learn to minister to people at their level of faith, not yours. Some people need to have hands laid on them. Some may be at the point of just needing hope to believe that the doctor’s treatment will work. Be a support and encourage them where they are.

Comment by Javanut | December 20, 2008
Ultimately, we all will be healed, regardless. Not just in this life. God certainly can and does heal, but the question as to when it is in His will to heal in this life, versus the next. I am still trying to understand what God truely points to in this area. Often times pursuit of “healing” is a focus on the flesh and body and what we want in our own will. Ultimate absence of suffering. People make it theologically tied to level of faith, when that is not full context, because there have been people filled with great faith who do not receive healing in the way they expect. It, I think is a matter of perspective. But for me much is going on that I want to know more of God’s truth in this matter.

Comment by peacebringer | December 20, 2008
Good point, BB, concerning Mark 2.

Comment by Emi | December 20, 2008
Susan wrote: “And, we would be foolish to put physical healing into the same category as the forgiveness of sins. IAN VINCENT

But the bible and Jesus puts physical healing in the same category as the forgiveness of sins:” unquote

Hi Susan,
You might want to ask me what i mean by ‘the same category’.

As you bread thru the NT you’ll find hundreds of references verifying that Christ Jesus substitutionally died for our sin. This is the whole emphasis of Romans, for example.

Never once is it taught that He substitutionally died for our sickness.

Does that make sense?

—————————————————–

I used to believe that healing was part of the Atonement. Only in the last year has the LORD showed me (without me looking for it) that its not.

And it hasn’t shaken my faith for healing and wellness one iota.

We are missionaries in central India. We’ve lived in a malaria belt for the last 11 years and never gotten malaria, while so many around us get it. The same malaria mosquitoes bite us. Then why don’t we get it?

My testimony is that according to my understanding of Scripture and the promises of God, it is not His will to give me malaria, unless i was in disobedience and came under His chastening.

Whatever, God gave me the faith to believe this and its a reality. Jesus said ‘if you CAN believe, all things are possible..’ By the grace of God there are things i find it easy to believe and trust God for.

But some Christians find it hard to believe that God could supernaturally protect them from disease. I’m not condemning them.

If we were in the other fishing boats after Peter had walked on the water, would we have said “Good on ya Pete!” acknowledging his faith, or would we get resentful that he walked on the water and we didn’t?

Comment by ianvincent | December 21, 2008
Ben,

You really need to go back and read the exegesis I provided above. No where in the Peter passage you reference does Peter refer to physical healing.

1Peter 2:24 “Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.”

Please note that Peter links healing to Christ dying for our sins.

I agree with you that exegesis of Isaiah 53; Matthew 8:17 and 1 Peter 2:24 is of utmost importance to determine the will of God in this extremely vital matter of physical healing. I don’t find Jesus taking all physical illness and sickness upon Himself so that the moment a person beleives in Jesus there is a perfect miraculous physical healing. That is what I would expect if Jesus imputed perfect health at the moment of faith. I DO expect that the moment a person beleives in Jesus there is indeed a perfect forgiveness of sins and imputation of righteousness.

If Jesus did bear all physical sickness then why didn’t Paul write about this in Romans? That would have been the perfect place for Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to expound how a beleiver can now have perfect healing in addition to being justified the moment we beleive.

No, Paul knew perfect healing is not promised in the atonement this side of Heaven. His one companion was near death. Paul had various infirmities. Perfect healing is promised as a consequence of the atonement….when we put on our new body…

peace,

Comment by BB | December 21, 2008
I agree with Karen, it’s a cruel doctrine that can make parents feel responsible for kids not getting well due to lack of faith.

Or at worst, cause loving parents to kill their children.

People have been praying for healing for the last two thousand years (well, for much longer I suppose) but it has only been relatively recently that the average human life span dramatically improved.

What changed is science based medicine, it surely can’t be attributed to more prayer, looking at the state of religiosity in Europe today.

I know a lot of people think they were divinely healed, but doctors as a group have not been able to take these claims seriously due to the nature of sickness that comes and goes somewhat randomly, placebo effect, confirmation bias, etc.

Comment by mrfun | December 21, 2008
But if i believed that God could and would, for no reason, just allow me to get malaria at any time, then i would have no ’shield of faith’ , and anything the devil wanted to give me i would think that God is giving it to me.

Comment by ianvincent | December 21, 2008
Typo, ‘…as you read thru the NT…’, not ‘bread’

Comment by ianvincent | December 21, 2008
Another point:

The word Atonement comes from the word ‘exchange’. The term ‘the great exchange’ accurately describes the Atonement.

When a person truly repents and believes (one action) in Jesus Christ, then they have partaken of (obtained) this great exchange.

They no longer have any sin before God, they have Christ’s righteousness.

There sin is no longer imputed to them.

Now, try and say the same things here for sickness.

Could i substitute the word ’sin’ with ’sicknesses’, in the above statements?

That i no longer have any sicknesses in God’s sight?

Otherwise, how would you die? People’s bodies finally give up on them. How can that be if a great exchange has taken place and there is no more sickness in God’s sight?

Comment by ianvincent | December 21, 2008
Are people perfect once they pray the prayer of salvation? No more sin ever? No, perfection comes when we either die and go to heaven or are raptured.

If salvation is final at the prayer – why do Christians sin after they pray? Is there not a growth process? Something called sanctification? The three stages of salvation – now, ongoing and future?

You hold healing to a much higher standard than you do righteousness or should I say holiness. “Perfect healing means no death?” please. Let’s get it back to the realm of the real.

We live in a sin-filled world. People will get sick and all men are appointed to die once. God intervenes on behalf of believing prayer and grants healing because of His grace and mercy.

Re: Matt 8:16-17 Matthew said that Jesus healing people physically was a fulfillment of Isaiah 53:4-5. Matthew was there – he was a disciple of Jesus. I’ll take his word over anyone’s opinion anyday.

Quit trying to make it some all or nothing proposition. Yes, healing is in the atonement and not everyone will be healed because we aren’t perfect yet. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Show me a person who passes out gospel tracts and has better than a 1% success rate in getting converts. Do we mock him for a failure rate of 99% or do we rejoice that one person got saved?

Re: how can people die if they aren’t sick – heart failure. When your heart stops beating, you die. Everyone dies of heart failure in one way or another (old coroner’s joke).

Comment by Javanut | December 21, 2008
It isn’t just one Scripture. I could easily give you about 20 Scriptures that show that Jesus bore our sicknesses. The same Scriptures I used to speak healing into the body of my son, who is perfectly well today. The same Scriptures I use to preach on all over and see miracles and healings whereever I preach. If you want to look at our church website we have a number of articles on healing which will bear this out.

But we have to base our doctrine on the Word not our experiences. To say 1 Peter 2.24 does not talk about healing when it uses the word healing is eisegesis, not exegesis.

How am I going to die – I am simply going to leave my body and be with the Lord in the spirit. Either the rapture will occur, I will be martyred for my faith, or I will go peacefully in my sleep leaving my body behind. My heart will stop beating because I will be dead, not the other way around. I realise that having a spiritual cause for a physical effect is difficult for some people, but the Word says live by faith and not by sight, and that the spiritual is greater than the physical.

I do feel compassion on you Karen, and I do love people. But every time Jesus had compassion on the sick, he healed them.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | December 21, 2008
Javanut – Here’s the difference. When a believer sins, they can go to Christ and receive forgiveness (healing) immediately….everytime…. without fail. But can a believer go to Christ and receive physical healing immediately, everytime without fail? This is the issue imho.

Comment by BB | December 21, 2008
BB,
What infirmities did Paul have?

Comment by Gary N. | December 21, 2008
Javanut,

“Faith works by love – and without a compassion for the sick no “faith confessions” will work. Real compassion focuses on getting the person well – whether that takes a doctor, surgeon, dentist or a dab of oil

Real love doesn’t condemn people for lack of faith – it sits by their bedside and wipes their brow. Real love ministers to the person until they are well, by whatever means necessary”

I like this first answer better. Although I do see your point about the logical absurdity of my (and John MacArthurs!) argument. I do sense compassion there for those who struggle to bear the yoke of your doctrine.

I think this is such a huge issue with me because I see it as part of what I was discussing with My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours Too on the Heidi Baker thread, what I call the Second Best Girlfriend Curse. It creates this elite group of Barbie Dolls and Golden Boys who sail through life with no poverty or pain, and all because of their seemingly superior faith and extravagant love for Jesus. I sit on the sidelines, less of a citizen in their kingdom of God, because I struggle with extreme poverty, and mental illness, and unbelievable struggles with my children, (and yes, I do see it all as chastening, which I welcome with all my sin-darkened heart). These struggles have opened my heart up to the lepers and prodigals like nothing else. I would never choose them, never, but I am thankful for the trials. I would be even more unbearably proud without them than I already am.

I see the brave souls who perservere under great pain. I wonder, who has the greater faith? I believe God has mysterious, redemptive purposes in our suffering with sickness. See like Fanny Crosby! Travail and sing like Amy Carmichael and save abandoned children, though she could barely sit because of her intense back pain. Look at David Livingstone! Was there somthing defective in his faith because he had the most humiliating condition of any imaginable–hemorraghing hemorroids? No one with that condition does not plead for healing daily! But he bled to death, on his knees in the African dust. He was so revered by his African friend who watched his patient suffering for the gospel’s sake, and was so moved by his scrifice, that he buried his heart there in African soil, and carried his body for miles and miles, back to be buried in England. That story moves me to tears.

Or contemporary saints like Joanie Errickson Tada, or Gianna Jesson, a survivor of a saline abortion who calls the cerebal palsy she struggles with “a gift”. These women are startlingly beautiful in their joy and infectious hope. I long for such a life that oozes Jesus.

I think of my sister, who has just been diagnosed with rhuematoid arthritis, whose beautiful ministry of helps has been severely curtailed. Of course I groan with earnest prayer for her healing. She is in such pain! But as I pray, I keep getting the sense that God is allowing this because he wants to perfect her ministry of prayer and intercession and words or Knowledge and Wisdom, more needed now in these darksome days.

When I remember my brother’s untimely death at the age of 52, I remember that I had the privelege of proclaiming Christ at his funeral, and the Father’s patient pursuit of the prodigal to his grief stricken loved ones. That was part of Gods’ redemptive purpose, as well my brothers sufferings as he died, I believe they brought his heart near to God again, and home to Heaven as he returned to his faith.

Okay, I don’t do so well on the doctrine side of things, but that is what you have BB and ianvincent for. I thank God for your prodigious wisdom, guys! What apt answers you give!

Comment by Karen Butler | December 21, 2008
After my earlier post, I feel I should clarify that I absolutely do believe God heals today; I have experienced such myself and seen miraculous answers to prayer. For instance, a friend had chemo for breast cancer, and because her immune system was weak, she caught a bug and was desperately ill. After prayer, her blood results dramatically altered, and I know it was a miracle because I have worked in Haematology, and also her husband, who is a GP, was amazed.
I know of a christian who was healed of end stage cancer (he was at deaths door with no hope) but he only lived a short while afterwards!
When my Dad was dying of cancer, the family prayed fervently for healing, but it didn’t come. When we prayed for the pain to go, however, that prayer was answered in an amazing way.
My point is that God knows, and His will is sovereign. It’s not about having a magic formula, or ticking all the boxes. It’s about trusting and believing, but also ‘Thy will be done’. I can’t bear it when people imply that there is something between the sick person and the Lord that is ‘unresolved’, even though that might be, because that puts all responsibility on the sufferer.

Comment by Elizabeth A | December 21, 2008
I heard a good message of John Piper about Hebrews 13:20,21
“Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”

Jesus doesn’t equip us to get wealthy, or to get prosperity or healing. He equips us to do His will.

When I heard that message I had to think about Revelation 14:12
“Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.”

The most important thing is when we are born again, is to do Gods will, obey Him.

When Jesus returns and when there will be a new heaven and earth, then there will be no more sickness. I believe God also wants to heal us today, but when He doesn’t, we just have to pray: ‘Not my will, but Your will be done’. The way Jesus prayed in Getsemane.

Last week I was diagnosed with MS (multiple scleroses). I can still do a lot of things (and do my job als web-editor for 28 hours a week), so I am glad that I don’t have the worst form of MS. But no matter if God heals me or heals me not, I want to follow Him and do His will, that is the most important thing. And His grace is sufficient to me.
This disease won’t stop me trusting Him, following Jesus and do His will.

Comment by Ruitje | December 21, 2008
I agree with Karen Butler. Telling people if you just have enough faith, there’ll be a healing, is a very cruel and wrong doctrine. It totally goes against the sovereignty of God.

The Lord did a great healing in my family after I prayed, believed, and laid hands on her (the first time I did that), and later another healing in my family after the same thing.

However, a few years later, after more growing in the Lord, my father died after I did the same thing as before. I had no doubt he would be healed (in this life). I was shocked when he wasn’t. Nobody can tell me I didn’t have enough faith, though I would have thought that as a baby Christian, especially after the earlier healings.

God knows the future of each person, and how each person’s life and things that happen in each person’s life influence others. He knows the big picture. We don’t. I would imagine the No. 1, most important thing is the most number of people going to heaven as possible.

When Kenneth Hagin, Sr.’s son-in-law died of cancer, I was getting his magazine. Nothing was mentioned at all of his passing. You would have thought he didn’t even exist. I don’t know, of course, but I would imagine that is because that flied right in the face of you’ll always be healed if you just have enough faith.

I thought that was pretty bad, but it’s not my family, so that’s none of my business. It just again shows the cruelty of this doctrine, however.

There is protection in the scriptures. However, Jesus also taught that random things happen to people in this world, and it’s not because they sinned more than anybody else.

The Bible is a very thick book. Once again, what we tend to do is see the promises, which are real, but then ignore the things that aren’t so fun to read which show that bad things still happen to all people in this world, and then blame those people when bad things do happen to them or they don’t receive a healing, et cetera. Which is totally against the teachings of Jesus.

Comment by Gary | December 21, 2008
I disagree that salvation and healing are on the same level, concerning our faith, as you’ve described.

You can only become a new creation once, and it is an instant regeneration, and is eternal. A person can’t lapse in and out of salvation, as they can with healing (wellness).

If a person ever turns away (Hebrews tells us)they can’t regain their salvation.

But healing comes and goes.

There’s no teaching on healing in the atonement in the NT. It’s not taught as a doctrine, the subject is never brought up. Not even the briefest explanation of it.

Rather the Lordship of Christ is preached, bcos of His death, burial and resurrection.

When i’m only interested in Jesus’ LORDSHIP and reign over me, then the only issue is to do His will joyfully in faith, to run the race and finish my course.

The shield of faith, therefore, should deflect every poison arrow of the enemy which is sent to stop us finishing our course. (Eph. 6)

Occasionally getting a cold or something like that will not hinder us finishing the work we have been given.

Comment by ianvincent | December 21, 2008
To be saved requires simple child like faith, and it’s a gift. Every saved person is equally saved and equally holy IN Christ. By exercising ‘more’ faith you can’t get ‘more saved’ than what you are already IN Christ.

Healing is not the same. If any person falls away from Christ it IS due to unbelief. If any person ever get’s sick it’s not necessarily due to any defect in their faith.

If healing is in the atonement, equally, as salvation is, then why are there ‘gifts of healings’ and ‘gifts of faith’? Every saved person has the gift of faith to believe to the saving of their soul, but not the gift of faith to have perfect health.

Though i reckon that the ’shield of faith’ is not widely understood and believed these days.

http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/healing-in-the-atonement-laying-a-debate-to-rest/#comment-1147

Comment by ianvincent | December 22, 2008
Good comments Ian.
Ruitje,your comments are also appreciated. God bless and I will be praying for you.

Comment by Elizabeth A | December 22, 2008
Many mysteries in this theme.
First, I have no doubt that the word “griefs” used in Isaiah 53 “4 ¶ Surely *he* hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; and we, we did regard him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted” means sickness. No doubt from the rest of Isaiah (1.4-6) we conclude that there is far more sick about man than his body! But Matthew quotes the above scripture (Matt.8.17) in relation to our Lords’ healing ministry. Therefore His death includes both the sicknesses and sins that were forgiven or healed before His death or after it (Rom.3.25).
It seems therefore that the general will of God for His people as expressed in 3John 2 is for health.
However if the apostle Paul had believed that all sickness in the body of Christ should have been healed as a matter of course if all sin is confessed, he would never have written to Timothy “Drink no longer only water, but use a little wine on account of thy stomach and thy frequent illnesses”. If he had been a “faith teacher” there should have been a strong rebuke here, not a gentle encouragement to use some natural help to health – “Here brother, how come you are so often sick? Where is your faith?!”
I find myself therefore in general agreement with John Macathur’s view that ultimately our Lord’s atonement includes the healing of all sicknesses and is fully realised in the “redemption of the body” for which Paul says we are waiting and groaning (Rom. 8.23).
In the meantime let those of us who are sick look to God for His will in the matter and the faith which comes from His word to us personally (the “faith of God” Mark.11.22, Rom.10.17 – to whom do we go first when we are sick – 2Ch 28:22)? and those of us who are not sick be exercised to pray for those of us who are. In God’s new covenant where “All shall know Me, from the least to the greatest”, it is not too much to ask of God for personal revelation if we get sick.
Many old saints rightly divided between “faith healing” and “divine healing”. What is taught in many ministries is “faith healing”, but “divine healing” puts the emphasis where it ought to be, our personal fellowship with Him. In that fellowship we are to live with expectancy and hope for the things beyond what is seen.

Comment by FriendofMuslims | December 22, 2008
1. I’m not pointing the finger at anyone or calling a lack of healing a lack of faith. To do so is reprehensible in my mind.
2. How do you know you are forgiven if you don’t feel forgiven? Because the word says so. I used the analogy of being saved because Paul does – as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord – so walk ye in Him. The same faith that receives salvation is the same faith that receives everything else.
3. I acknowledge that not everyone gets healed. Equally true is not all people are saved. Again, how do you know you are saved? Because the word says so. No other reason stands. If you did what the word said to do – Rom 10:9,10 – then the word says you are saved. It doesn’t matter how you feel or if you feel anything at all.
4. If a christian sins after becoming a christian, does that make salvation not in the atonement? What if it takes you a while to give up certain sins after you get saved? What if you knew 10 people who heard the gospel but refused to accept Jesus as their Savior? Would any of these things invalidate the gospel of salvation?
5. It’s not “my doctrine”. I don’t club people over the head with it or blame them if they don’t jump up and down. In fact, I’ve worked as a paramedic the last 3 yrs – I’m the one that holds your hand after a car wreck, or wipes the sweaty hair off your face and talks in a nice gentle voice so you don’t get upset on the way to the hospital. After I get the IV started and all the monitors hooked up – I ask the person if they would like prayer – many say yes. Of all the people I’ve prayed for – one was healed en route to the hospital – verified by x-ray. Do I quit praying?

Bottom line for me is God is love and love wants hurting people to stop hurting. I will work with God to stop the hurting in others. I do what I can in the physical and God does the miraculous on His schedule.

Comment by Javanut | December 22, 2008
You can only become a new creation once, and it is an instant regeneration, and is eternal. Ian Vincent

Are you implying that any person who is born again is automatically once saved always saved?

How do you deal with 2 PT 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2:22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Comment by brad | December 22, 2008
Thanks to all who are confirming what the Spirit wants us all to know regarding this important subject.

Gary N.: I don’t know what Paul’s infirmities were. He did say he wrote with large letters. I wonder why. He was stoned almost to the point of death which makes me wonder if there were any lasting effects. Anyway, I refer simply to Paul’s own words in 2Cor. 12 that he had infirmities and that God’s grace was sufficient as opposed to being healed of every ache and pain:

“Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecution, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.” (2 Cor. 12:8-10)

Comment by BB | December 22, 2008
Whoo-ee, ianvincent, I believe you just hit a home-run!
Go, team No!

Comment by Karen Butler | December 22, 2008
Ruitje,

‘But no matter if God heals me or heals me not, I want to follow Him and do His will, that is the most important thing. And His grace is sufficient to me.
This disease won’t stop me trusting Him, following Jesus and do His will”.

Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your Lord…may it be your strength!

I too, will faithfully pray for you. Your name on the blog will be my reminder, so keep faithfully posting your wise words, dear brother.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 22, 2008
Miriam I sent you an email. Could you please reply when you have a chance?

Comment by Mary B | December 22, 2008
I am not trying to be harsh but I have not received one answer as of yet. I too struggle with this question! It frustrates me because, I know people who believed God fully but they still died or remained sick. Then I know some that were on their death bed but God raised them up. Why have faith at all. This debate just deepens my hunger for an answer. I wish, first if, Miriam to state her veiwpoint but I guess she has the same problem? I am confused!

Comment by Broken but Healing | December 22, 2008
My pastor who considers himself a true charismatic and not one of those third wave idiots is a senior and he has had two different heart attacks and after much prayer God healed him of both of them. He even has medical proof that he has recovered completely and has no tissues on his heart. The last attack was only two years ago!

So how come my pastor gets healed of this and many other things when others do not?

Comment by brad | December 22, 2008
Karen Butler
I somehow missed your last post but have just re-read the comments and found it. Your words are eloquent, honest and very much understood (by me at least!).
God bless you abundantly this Christmas.

Comment by Elizabeth A | December 23, 2008
It should be said that the ultimate result of the Atonement is TOTAL : ultimately, a total new creation, where there will be no death, sin, sickness or sorrow.

That needs to be acknowledged. (Miriam pointed that out).

Yet, if a Christian ever gets sick or even dies of that sickness, it would be not true to say that that happened bcos they didn’t fully appropriate for themselves the benefits of the Atonement.

Immortality is also in the Atonement, but not for this present mortal life.

If you die, is it bcos you didn’t fully appropriate all the benefits of the Atonement, of which immortality is one? No. You get ALL the benefits, later.

Perhaps i should have said: healing is in the Atonement, but not fully guaranteed in this present mortal life.

Comment by ianvincent | December 23, 2008
Faith that is given from God overcomes the world, the flesh and the devil and gives us the victory. The enemy we have to contend with is not physical, so we cannot attack him with physical weapons. The only way to stand against him is to resist him with our faith. The quality of our life is a product of our faith. We will never get any victory that is bigger than our faith. This is why the enemy is constantly warring against us, to make sure that our faith is weakened. If Satan can cause our faith to fail, he has us! Our faith is the fortress that keeps the devil off our territory. Hence God’s word tells us:

above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints Ephesians 6:16-18

When we are in faith taking the shield of faith, we are able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked and to have the victory over him and all things. Our victory can only be won and sustained by our faith. There is no other way. “The just shall live by his faith” (Habakkuk 2:4). God has designed it so. It is our faith that puts us over in all life’s difficulties. Faith is essential for personal victory. And God intends for us to walk by faith and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).

Comment by Susan | December 23, 2008
I agree with Karen Butler. Telling people if you just have enough faith, there’ll be a healing, is a very cruel and wrong doctrine. It totally goes against the sovereignty of God. – kent

To me the sovereignty of God is hogwash and an excuse for a defeatist faith. If we accept the sovereignty in healing then we would have to remove as negligible the faith of the Greek woman who wanted her daughter healed of the demon in Matthew 7:25 For a woman whose young daughter had an unclean spirit heard about Him, and she came and fell at His feet.
7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syro-Phoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
7:27 But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
7:28 And she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children’s crumbs.”
7:29 Then He said to her, “For this saying go your way; the demon has gone out of your daughter.”
7:30 And when she had come to her house, she found the demon gone out, and her daughter lying on the bed.

Comment by brad | December 23, 2008
Dear Broken but Healing,

If you find the answer to why some are healed and some are not – you’ll be rich and famous. So far, no one else has any idea

Comment by Javanut | December 23, 2008
May I tell you a true story. There was a wonderful old man in the church I grew up in. All us kids called him papala. He had such faith and such a love for the Lord. When anyone asked how he was, he would say “oh I’m fine – just fine”, and he meant it. He suffered for years with bleeding from his colon. Before he died – true story – the devil came and sat on his bed and told him if he would recant his faith, he would take the sickness away from him. Of course, Papala said “no”. Immediately after that his wife came in the room and said “what is that smell – it smells like sulfer in here.” Hell had been in that room, but the devil didn’t win. Sorry, all you WOF people. Sometimes the Lord does say no!

Comment by marybee | December 23, 2008
Thanks for all the encouragement. But one little correction: I am a sister, not a brother

Comment by Ruitje | December 23, 2008
‘the sovereignty of God is hogwash’?!:/

Comment by Elizabeth A | December 23, 2008
If we had all the answers to this we would be god surely?
I have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant pain. I absolutely believe God can heal me, I don’t believe He wants to see me suffer, so I trust Him because He is God, and He sees the end from the beginning.

Comment by Elizabeth A | December 23, 2008
I agree, Marybee. And yes, we are supposed to have faith, and yes also, God is sovereign, whether we like it or not. We should have faith, but we can’t order God around like flipping on a light switch. There is no formula that “works,” because God is not an impersonal force.

This is exactly what the Book of Job is all about. When Job had his terrible problems, self-righteous “friends” blamed him for his troubles, said he had to be doing things wrong.

One friend jumped all over him also, but only for questioning God’s righteousness. That friend never said Job was doing anything wrong to bring the trouble on himself.

When the Lord spoke up at the end of the book, He said the friends who said Job brought his troubles on himself in some way were wrong, period. He had no problem with what the last friend had said.

Then he jumped on Job for questioning His righteousness. But He never said Job brought the troubles upon himself by doing something wrong. In fact, He said His wrath was aroused against the friends who condemned Job, and that Job had spoken rightly.

But now because of the distorted WOF teachings, people constantly ignore what God said in the Book of Job and blame people for things going wrong, just like his self-righteous “friends.”

That being, said, yes, we are still supposed to live by faith. We’re just not supposed to question God’s righteousness.

Comment by Gary | December 23, 2008
Brad,

How odd that you would choose Mark 7:25 to illustrate your point–I think it emphatically underlines mine. He went to that village in Tyre to have that divine appointment with that desperate mother, it was a pre-ordained move directed by the will of His loving Father, who has compassion on the lowly and poor in spirit. Jesus veiled his intentions, to test her faith, and reveal another principle of faith, similar to the Roman Centurions’ understanding of authority, ( and to us,the utter sovereignty of God ). The Syro-Phoenician woman grovels before God. Our posistion must be like hers, of the utmost humility, not demanding healing as our birthright, but only as the crumbs from the masters’ table.

Mine is certainly not a passive, fatalistic faith. I am passionately abandoning myself to his will, falling before his feet, imploring Him, reminding Him “Lord, they are but crumbs, nothing is too difficult for You”. I have wept before Him, with this very Scripture, asking back what the locusts have eaten.

I will be very honest. You will see this is not a mere academic matter to me, it is hugely what is what I am in the throes of, contending with God, at this very moment,for. Because you cited this scripture that is bathed with my own tears, I feel led to reveal this, and I beg for your prayers on our behalf. We have not got much of a community yet at the new church we attend.

My very own daughter is this daughter. She is in the clutches of the enemy, and her very life is at peril at this very moment. She has an abcess on her hand that she is neglecting to treat, the infection is staph, posssibly antibiotic resistant. I don’t know where she is. She has a history of mental illness, and self-medicates.

I neglected getting that child proper mental health care because I believed God would supernaturally heal her, as He had me. It created great anger in her towards me and my God. It cost us hugely, in every way. That is what this doctrine does to its victims.

But there is true victory, real faith, revealed a little further in that wonderful book of Habakkuk, Susan, in Habakkuks’ song of authentic faith that glorifies God:

“Though the olive crop fails
and the fields produce no food,
though there are no sheep in the pen
and no cattle in the stalls,
yet I will rejoice in the LORD,
I will be joyful in God my Savior.
The Sovereign LORD is my strenth:
he makes my feet like the feet of a deer,
he enables me to go on the heights.”

He enables me, whenever fear threatens to overwhelm me, to look instead at Him, and walk on the heights, with peace, and yes, with joy.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 23, 2008
BB, I was just wondering where you were coming from. I agree with you. It’s just that some people reach for the scripture about Paul’s thorn in the flesh as a reason Paul may have had a disease. Yet the only other references to this scripture was people who were enemies to the children of God in the old testament. And no tellng what kind of effects of having boulders (they were not throwing rocks) dropped on you to kill you would have.

Comment by Gary N. | December 23, 2008
javanut,

Your words have been very healing to me, I have been able to see a different side of the people who believe this way. Bless you, (brother??).

I hope there is an EMT like you around, the next time my daughter has a medical emergency.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 23, 2008
Elizabeth A

Thank you, and abundant joy for you this Christmas as well!

Comment by Karen Butler | December 23, 2008
In praying for healing, it is biblical and permissible to let our request and desire be made known to God.God loves us and cares for us even concerning our sickness.Some are healed but there are many godly brethen who are not.Why this is so rest with the sovereign will of God, who sees us from His eternal perspective.It is something we will never fully understand on this side of life.Healing is not something we can just claim as preached by word of faith teachers.D.R. McConnell in his book ‘A Different Gospel’has made a bold and revealing examination of the biblical and historical basis of word of faith teachings.This is recommended reading for those wanting to know all points of view.Ultimately we will all be healed, with no exception, when we discard this frail imperfect bodies and exchange them with a new perfect one as we go Heaven bound.I tend to agree with John MacArthur’s view.

Comment by Barry K | December 24, 2008
Karen – thank you for your kind words – I’m your sister in the Lord

Btw – God can heal you whether or not you’re taking your medicine – He’s that big. So take your medicine until the healing manifests ok?

Comment by Javanut | December 24, 2008
Karen

May God heal your daughter and your family beyond even what you had dreamed – and swiftly too when He does it!

Oh good God, Maker of Heavan and Earth and all things, do this for the sake of your glory and so that knowledge of your goodness, your fame and renown may spread even wider – in Jesus’ name!

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 24, 2008
it was a pre-ordained move directed by the will of His loving Father, Karen

Dear Karen your statement is without fact and a presumption that something is pre-ordained! You want me to accept it on blind faith? To me it’s no different than what the Moslem’s say and believe about everything that ” Allah wills it.”

One can say everything that Jesus said and did was pre-ordained in the sovereignty of God leaving out man’s inability to bring about any change on his own will and choices!

But Jacob wrestled with God and got blessed by God and was that also pre-ordained? No!

So to a degree WOF are right, you can use your faith to bring about change just like Elijah did when he prayed for the boy who died and brought him back from the dead! In other words many things are not pre-ordained!

Comment by brad | December 24, 2008
Amen to Endtimes’ prayer.
‘Father, this Christmas I pray especially for the prodigals…we all have them in our families. Most especially for our sons and daughters.Bring them home Lord we pray, in Jesus name. Amen’

Comment by Elizabeth A | December 24, 2008
Amen!

And before I forget it, Elizabeth A and Ruitje, may you both experience the awesome incredible miraculous power of God in your lives manifested in healing of your physical bodily conditions THIS side of eternity. May the Holy Spirity bring you each a gift of healing this Christmas!

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 24, 2008
Karen has given a beautiful testimony here about how a believer can easily be put into condemnation if healing doesn’t happen immediately. IanVincent is correct in that atonement does quarantee our perfect healing when we rise.

Now, just because immediate physical healing isn’t guaranteed in the atonement doesn’t mean we can’t ask for immediate healing. I believe God’s promise in Mark 11:24 – “Whatsoever you ask in prayer, believing that you have received it, it shall be yours.” This is an amazing promise is it not? I have used it more and more. It requires a faith that will not take no for an answer. I mean doesn’t our Lord grant us the same privilege here in this verse (and elsewhere) that He gave Solomon when He said, “Whatsoever you ask I will give you.”?

What I’m saying here is that just because Isaiah 53:4,5 does not teach immediate physical healing in the atonement (like the immediate forgiveness of sins that IS promised in the atonement), let’s not go to the other extreme and accept physical infirmities. There are many other promises in God’s Word, like Mark 11:24 and James 5, that invite us to ask for immediate physical healing.

Comment by BB | December 24, 2008
Hi,

Just want to chime in, read most of the comments here, especially those of ianvincent…

I would love to recommend the book Bodily healing and the atonement, written by Dr. T.J. McCrossan, a Greek and Hebrew scholar in the Manitoba University of Canada.

The book was written in the 1930’s (?) and is later published by Roy Hicks and Kenneth Hagin. These WOF teachers edited small parts, but the essence of the scholary work of T.J. McCrossan is kept intact!

God bless,
Fernando

Comment by Fernando | December 24, 2008
Elizabeth – it brings me comfort to know that God IS sovereign and that He knows our beginning and our end. I do believe that sometimes His hands are tired by the choices we make while living in this world, i.e., what we eat, drink, etc; yet, I also believe He loves to heal his kids. When the healing we ask for doesn’t “manifest”, it is our choice to trust Him or not, and seek His face and examine ourselves. The rest is up to Him, for His purpose. That’s where the REAL faith comes in.

Comment by marybee | December 24, 2008
Javanut,

Well, here’s the healing manifesting for you–I’m laughing at your post, and not worried that I’m appearing crazy to the whole wide world!

I was healed supernaturally, even at the point of a psychotic break with reality, and I have never taken medication, though I am not opposed to it, by any means.
Lithium made a miraculous difference in the life of my schizo-effective mother. I would prefer my daughter to take meds, rather than the dangerous course she pursues.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 24, 2008
My comment on charisma forum:

Thanks Barry for putting the time into responding.

I do pray that this discussion will help people’s faith and help reveal Jesus in a greater way.

As a response to many of your comments: we do believe in healing and see healings regularly, answers to prayer, and live in His protection from disease (while we have been doing His will he has protected our bodies in wonderful ways).

Praying in Jesus name is not a tag line, mantra or a method. In His name means according to His will.

And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we should ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we may ask, we know that we have the requests that we have requested from Him.
(1John 5:14-15)

Whilst the Atonement is total in eternity, yet, in this temporal life, there is a difference between receiving salvation and forgiveness and receiving healing. And this is all i was saying.

If you trust Jesus to forgive you, your faith is firmly based on the Atonement, the finished work of Christ, and you HAVE forgiveness.

You don’t have to wait for an answer from God. And He won’t say, No. it’s not my will to forgive you at this time.

But we can’t approach healing in the same way.

Paul asked for healing and God said, No.

And lest I exalt myself above measure by the excellence of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, that it might beat me, lest I exalt myself above measure. Concerning this I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(2Cor 12:7-9)

”flesh”, here, means his body. Not his soul, mind or spirit. It’s easily interpreted, compare :

And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise nor disdain, but as an angel of God you received me, even as Christ Jesus. What then was your blessing? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have torn out your own eyes and given them to me!
(Gal 4:14-15)

Paul obviously had some kind of eye problem. And not just weak sight. Something visually not very nice, so that Paul commended the Galatians for not despising him over it, like, ” Some man of faith this, he can’t even heal himself of eye disease!” – they didn’t say that.

To make a ‘method’ of healing, as you’ve said Barry, is not accurate to the Scriptures.

We have come to a Person, therefore, there is no ‘method’ or ‘formula’.

“…if we should ask anything according to His will, He hears us.”

If a person thinks that ‘healing in the Atonement’ means that God will always heal, in the same way that He always forgives the repentant believing saint, is to believe a fallacy.

Again, i would say that the LORDSHIP of Christ over a person is the only real issue here. When they are obeying and serving Him in faith then they need not worry about anything preventing them finishing their work.

—————————————————–

Another of my comments from charisma:

Hi John,

For sure, many have persistently held on and kept pushing in for healing and have received healing.

Thank God that our salvation is not appropriated like that, that we don’t have to wait for God to answer whether He is going to forgive us or not.

When believers saw Paul’s eye disease he didn’t say to them, “I am healed..” ,

he said, ” I beseeched the Lord to heal me 3 times and He said, No”.

This is an example for us of how to face the reality of this life.

Paul’s first reaction was to try and get rid of the sickness ( so Paul is nit a cessationist type person).

—————————————————-

Jesus also bore our griefs and carried our sorrows (Isaiah 53). Does that mean we will have no grief or sorrow in this life?

But see how Paul considered his sickness, and his griefs, sorrows and pains , he didn’t allow them to subvert Jesus’ LORDSHIP over his life. He just kept ‘movin on’ in faith anyway.

————————————————

For sure there were reasons Paul’s prayer was not answered, he stated that, but it was not due to pride, it was to keep him from falling into pride:

For if I should desire to boast, I will not be foolish; for I will speak the truth. But I spare you, lest anyone consider me to be beyond what he sees me to be or hears something from me. And lest I exalt myself above measure by the excellence of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, that it might beat me, lest I exalt myself above measure. Concerning this I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in calamities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For whenever I am weak, then I am strong.
(2Cor 12:6-10)

The ‘reasons’ in the above for God withholding healing in this case:

a) …lest anyone consider me to be beyond what he sees me to be or hears something from me

b) …And lest I exalt myself above measure by the excellence of the revelations

c) …for My power is perfected in weakness” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

A question someone asked Quote:
So if there is no particular hinderance then does that mean God will heal everybody in that context? unquote

Good to note that in Paul’s case the “hindrance” was not a lack of faith. Certainly, lack of faith can be a hindrance, and there can be many hindrances, known only to God. Why do we NEED to know?

Our sorrows and griefs were also borne by our LORD Jesus and this is part of the Atonement.

If a Christian ever has sorrow or grief is it due to them not having enough faith in the Atonement?

http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/healing-in-the-atonement-laying-a-debate-to-rest/#comment-1160

Comment by ianvincent | December 25, 2008
And what IF God says, “No” ? What is our reaction to Him then? Our response to that will reveal the depth of our relationship to Him: either, we loved Him unconditionally, or, we loved Him conditionally, on the proviso that we got everything we wanted.

Now, we are finally getting to the application of this subject.

Comment by ianvincent | December 25, 2008
I would like to read all the posts, but unfortunately I don’t have the time. There is one scripture that does seem to relate healing to forgiveness of sins but perhaps it’s already been posted here (Matthew 9:2-8)

I believe in looking to Jesus for healing and I believe that it’s God’s will mainly because Jesus healed all who came to him. I have been healed many times but I’m not always healed, however, I still believe that it’s his will and chalk up no healing to a lack of faith on my part or perhaps to sin in my life that I’m unaware of. On the other hand, I don’t condemn myself or others for a lack of faith. I trust God whether I’m healed or not. I do believe in some aspects of the confession teaching but I would never repeat a bible verse over and over like a mantra, trying to produce faith or healing. For example, when I’m seeking God and believing that healing is his will for me, I don’t go around complaining to everyone about my illness and about my symptoms because it just doesn’t seem right somehow when I’m expecting God to heal me. I pretty much ignore my physical ailments as much as possible and just keep praying about it.

Mainly the way my faith works is that when I’m sick or need help physically I turn to God for help. I see him as my source for whatever problem I’m facing, sickness or otherwise. I know for a fact that many of the problems I experience are from sin or from lack of obedience, but thank goodness God doesn’t abandon me. Healing is not something I demand from God like he owes it to me. It’s just his goodness. I know he loves us and forgives us and helps us all the time. I know I can trust him.

I don’t generally go to a doctor but I’m not against going to one and I probably would if I had a physical ailment that I couldn’t live with. But I would go to God first because I truly look to him for salvation in whatever I’m facing. It’s not a fake thing where I’m trying to produce something or manipulate God. It’s what I really believe. I have been healed at times instantly and at other times after several months of prayer so I’m not particularly discouraged if I don’t see healing, I just keep on praying.

Comment by Laurie | December 25, 2008
Miriam – happy Christmas and blessing to you and your family this Christmas and all through the New Year. Karen, Elizabeth and Ruitje – you will be in my prayers, have a great Christmas

Comment by jan(2) | December 25, 2008
By his stripes you were healed, speaks about healing,
if anybody among us is sick, he need to call the elders of the congregation, they will say a prayer over him, anoint him with oil and the prayer of faith shall raise up the sick, and if he have done sins it shall be forgiven him, confess your faults therefore to one another and pray for eachother so that you may be healed.

This talks about healing
This talks about healing by his stripes and talks about prayer of faith by the leaders, talks about forgiveness of sins, talks about confgession of sins, and pray for one another.

So: Is healing in the atonement? Yes is the atonement is accompanied by the calling the elders, accompanied by the prayers of the elders, is accompanied by the anointing with oil, is accompanied by the prayer of faith, is accompanied by the forgiveness of sins, is accompanied by the confessiong of faults to one another, is accompanied by the prayer for eachother’s deliverance and victory over sin.

And healing is generally not in the atonement if the atonement is without those things, unless God decides to heal according to His will, who had no access to the above actions. And when somebodies days are finished he will die
since the atonement is not keeping our present body allways
alive, it provides when we persevere to the end, a new body on the day of first resurrection at the last trumpet.

Comment by Eric | December 26, 2008
I think this an interesting and important discussion, since illness touches all of our lives in this fallen world. Like many who have written comments above, I have been exposed to the popularly teaching that says Jesus died for our sicknesses as well as our sins, taking both upon Himself so that we would not have to bear them.

And yet, even among those who preach these doctrines there are always many examples of those who don’t receive the promised healing. As Karen Butler and others have said in their often poignant comments, such teaching does not bring comfort to those who see a loved one remain sick or even die painfully, despite their faithful prayers according to the doctrine of “by His stripes I am healed”.

My wife has been dealing with chronic illness for 10 years now; she’s been sick all the time we have been married. For several years we attended churches that preached the “healing in the atonement” message, and we believed and subscribed to the teaching and were asking God to heal. Yet, even though we had many who prayed along with us, and despite our being in agreement with the teaching of healing in the atonement, my wife was not healed. In fact, her condition worsened AND she also developed another, rather serious condition that put her in the hospital. Now thankfully she is improving slowly, though her condition remains serious and impacts our lives greatly.

It’s not that I don’t believe that God heals– I have seen and heard of many people getting healed– but the fact remains–some are healed and some are not.

So in large part because of our struggle in reconciling what we were being taught about healing vs. our personal experience of not being healed, my wife and I both went through a crisis of faith. In the end, it was a beneficial crisis, because it caused us to look again at what the Scriptures teach on this topic and to re-examine the WOF/charismatic views on healing.

My wife and I have come to recognize that her healing is ultimately in God’s hands, and she has stopped blaming herself for “lack of faith” or seeing herself as unworthy of receiving healing because of being a “bad Christian”. Although she still struggles at times with these kinds of thoughts. Those who adhere to this type of teaching inevitably must face the question of why are some not healed. The teaching is so “black and white”– it says that since God has provided healing through the cross of Christ (healing in the atonement), it’s now up to you to exercise your faith and get healed. So, if you or someone else hasn’t been healed, it’s obviously the fault of the person and their faith, not God.

It saddens and angers me to see people hurt by this teaching– especially, those in even more desperate situations than myself. There are those who go to the faith healers (who are usually spouting this same bad teaching), in the hope of seeing their sick child healed or with other extreme physical needs. And if such people are not healed (because despite the positive testimonies there are countless people that go away not healed and very disappointed) they now must also deal, not just with their unhealed condition, but also with doubts about the goodness of God or their own lack of faith or whatever.

So if there is a “healing in the atonement”, it is only in an ultimate sense– God removed sin through the cross of Christ and one day we will live in new bodies and in a new world completely free from sin and all the negative consequences that sin brings with it– disease, death, war, disharmony, etc. However it is obvious that despite the believer’s redemption from sin, in THIS LIFE we still deal the effects of sin. The hope of sinless perfection of soul and body is a wonderful future hope, one that all believers look forward to with great joy and anticipation, but still, one that is not our present experience.

To teach believers then, a form of doctrine that insists that this future biblical hope MUST be ours now, is wrongheaded at best and faith-destroying at worst. Those who find themselves in the unfortunate position of not being healed immediately despite fully adhering to this teaching will be forced to question either their own faith or the faithfulness of God.

If instead, we follow and believe what the Bible teaches us– that God is sovereign over ALL things and that He is Good– that He works ALL things to the good of those who love Him (Romans 8:28), then our faith will not be destroyed when bad things happen to us.

I have been writing a series on healing over at my blog Jordan’s View. The third installment has been in the works for many months now– I hope to post it shortly. The second of the articles is mostly a critique of the healing in the atonement teaching, on biblical grounds. I hope people will find it helpful.

Sickness, Healing and the Christian, Pt 1(Dangerous Deceptions)
Sickness, Healing and the Christian, Pt 2 (Biblical Analysis)

Blessings,

Alex

Comment by Alexander M Jordan | December 27, 2008
Post # 16 is very good, IMO. A writing by Gary Nystrom

http://www.biblicist.org/bible/healed.shtml

Comment by ianvincent | December 27, 2008
2CHRON 7:13 “When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, 7:14 “if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

EX 15:26 and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

PS 103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases,

JMS 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. JMS 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

SICKNESS AND HEALING ARE TIED TO SIN AND REPENTANCE! Just because some person didn’t repent of some sin and wasn’t healed doesn’t mean God is sovereign and some get healed and some do not! The latter is nonsense and defeatism theology!

Healing is the birthright of each child of God and the bible is very clear about it “And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”

Comment by SUSAN | December 27, 2008
“John Doe” is an alcoholic who one day stumbles into a church service and hears the gospel. He goes forward and gets saved. He is discipled and helped to dry out and lives a good, clean Christian life for 10 yrs. Has he got the victory over sin? Yes he does.

One day John falls off the wagon and has a ‘bender’. Is he now lost? Is there no more power to the gospel? Has grace now been nullified by his experience?

No, he repents, and receives forgiveness. That is the power of the gospel.

The gospel also includes healing for our physical bodies. Do all get healed instantly? No. Does this invalidate the gospel? No. We know in part and we understand in part.

In the meantime, I will continue to believe that God is a good God and has provided healing for His people. I will also continue to walk in love, mercy and compassion towards those who are still waiting to receive their healing.

Only God and the person involved know why they didn’t receive. It’s not up to me to judge or condemn. It’s my job to do good and minister healing to all those oppressed by the devil as I allow the Spirit of God to work through me.

One day we will we understand and it will all make sense. Until then, let’s minister the love of God!

Comment by Javanut | December 27, 2008
Dear “Believers,”

Jesus Christ of Nazareth HEALED THEM ALL! PERIOD!

He told His Disciples to do the SAME THING.
They Did in Acts 5. ALL WERE HEALED!

These signs shall follow THEM THAT BELIEVE:

HEAL THE SICK!

RAISE THE DEAD!

CAST OUT DEMONS!

NO SIGNS = NO BELIVERS! = NOT CHRISTIAN!! (maybe religious)

Keep it simple! Just like Jeusus Christ of Nazareth!

If you are not doing ALL the THINGS Jesus did & greater things then you are religious, (demonically deluded), NOT HOLY SPIRIT Led & EMPOWERED Child of God.

WE are to IMITATE WHO? Yes, JESUS CHRIST!!!

You call Yourself what? A CHRISTIAN?

The world is dying of sicknesses & diseases & going to hell & “CHRISTIANS” don’t KNOW if they are suppose to be sick or not, not to mention heal this wounded, sick & dying world?

God forgive us for Not Doing what Your Son Jesus commanded His Followers to do.

It is a lot easier to blog rather than spending our time praying & fasting & studying Your Word to figure out we are the EXACT OPPOSITE of Your Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth!
(We are just like the Pharisees & Saducees, sons of the devil, just like Jesus said.)

READ & REREAD THE GOSPELS TO FIND OUT WHAT GOD SAYS WE ARE SUPPOSE TO BE DOING!!

Judgement is Coming to the “Church” first, I believe it is coming very, very soon

Jesus asked, “Will the Son of Man find any faith on earth when He returns?

Lord, I haven’t found anyone with any faith & I have been searching for almost 28 years now.

Any “Believers” out there that can answer me with the Words of Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

Sincerely,

Comment by Yuman | December 28, 2008
@Yuman: you should read the whole bible. Jesus said that we have to make disciples that obey God. Healing is happening in the bible, but not always. Paul said to Timothy to use some wine for his problems with his stomach… He had to leave one worker behin because he became sick. What did Paul do wrong? I believe God heals, but this is still a broken world. When Jesus will return and make a new earth and new heaven, than sickness will be gone forever.

If healing depends on having enough faith, you are placing a yoke upong people. Than they have to work again to receive something. God wants to heal, but He does not always answers the way we want to.

The most important thing is that your soul is saved. People or satan can kill you body, but they can’t kill your soul.

You say “NO SIGNS = NO BELIVERS! = NOT CHRISTIAN!!”
That is turning things upside down! You are very judgmental when you state this. What are christians in poor countries, that have no healing, have no wealth, no life, doing wrong? You are judging. It is not about the signs, it is about following Jesus, dying of self, living a holy life.

Get real!

Comment by Ruitje | December 28, 2008
@Yuman: read the gospels, I could quote everything Jesus said, but than I have to put here a lot of scripture. Matthew 28 shows His most important message to us: ‘Make disciples!’. That depends not on how much miracles, signs and wonders you do in Jesus’ name. Telling that Jesus died for our sins, that people may repent and be saved from hell. That is the most important thing.

And if Jesus heals you, you won’t live in this body forever. We all die, but we will not see the second death. If what you say is true, than no one would die anymore on the planet. We will not live forever in this world and body, but we will live forever in a new body with Christ.

Comment by Ruitje | December 28, 2008
@Yuman: finally, watch this…

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s

Comment by Ruitje | December 28, 2008
Mark 6:4 “But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief.”

A couple of things hinder doing mighty works. The biggest one is unbelief that kept even Jesus from doing mighty works in his hometown of Nazareth. So too, I believe it is much harder to do great and mighty works in my home country of the USA because of unbelief as a result of backsliding and apostasy. There is a desparate need for revival in the land of the USA.

The other is that the mighty works where ALL are healed was part of the gospel wave that started with Jesus and the 12 and then pushed out into all the world. Wherever the gospel goes for the first time you will see ALL healed and great and mighty works. But as the gospel moved on to the uttermost parts of the earth, the Spirit led believers to focus on growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord.

Miracles imho for the most part follow those who are seeking and saving the lost. Since there is little evangelizing in “Christian countries” there is little miracles. Just my 2cents.

Comment by BB | December 28, 2008
///It is a lot easier to blog rather than spending our time praying & fasting & studying Your Word to figure out we are the EXACT OPPOSITE of Your Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth!
(We are just like the Pharisees & Saducees, sons of the devil, just like Jesus said.)/////

It’s also a lot easier to criticize, judge and condemn. God is using blogs and internet sites to reach into homes these days if you haven’t noticed. He is using the internet to teach, warn, preach and help His people discern false ministers who focus on fake healing and false teaching.

1Cor. 12:4 “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[b] Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills…..27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?”

Comment by BB | December 28, 2008
Yuman, you say you haven’t found anyone with faith for 28 years, yet you have been looking. Do you judge hearts, or does God? You do not have the authority to judge someone else’s faith. You are looking on the outside with what your eyes can see, rather than the inside, which you cannot see. According to your statements, you are the only believer that you know or have ever seen.

Comment by momma | December 28, 2008
Ruitje – good video, good truthful words.

Comment by marybee | December 29, 2008
..I’m still not sure, if it is a good idea to write something – I tried to read all your comments, and the subject is indeed difficult
( because it is so easy, to offend – unintentionally..)

To nobody, I wish any fysical or mental pain; and WOF or related..tactics are an abomination.
- but something I missed in this thread; and I m not sure, how to define that.
- but I try;

..I come to understand, slowly, that our Self is the most develish construction, ever.
Probably, the only thing what is of value for Him, is somebody’s Soul. But the soul is interlinked with a complex system of the mind’s defenses and reflexes – selfsustaining –
and we do not even have the slightest idea, whát our soul is, let alone, how to free it…?

..when we appear for Him, we are nothing more than a soul; and without the usual filters and limits which our mind deceives us with,
the soul could see Him as John did on Patmos

what I mean is, that His World is SO frightingly different, but our mínd is the real curse:
because it pretends it understands Him;
it pretends, it understands His world,
it pretends that it knows what is Love,
or compassion, or trust,
- while we see only a ‘percentage of a fráction ‘…!

I guess, that because we dont knów how blind we are,
( especially, when we hád some light, once..?) ,
He does nothing but carefully remove the tight wrappings around our soul, all the time;
but YES that hurts because NO that is not a game because it seperates ‘bone from marrow ‘ because EVERYTIME the soul immediately and automaticly starts using her own sight and methods if she has the chance..

…and also ‘the body ‘ is one of those ‘methods ‘ for the soul to remain selfsustaining….
- it is só “close”to the soul, that it fits her perfectly like a glove would to a hand
( besides: so does the mind..)

I know that He does not like to inflict sorrows to His own – He cries too: but His main goal, in somebody’s life now, as I understand it, is to move Heaven and Earth in order to – cautioussly – strip layer after layer from the souls’s wrappings , which hinder her to SEE…

( a lot of texts come in my mind; but I feel I lose my point when I write them now )
- and those, who give Him the free authorization to do that work, He will make their soul so pure and characterfull, that when that soul will meet Him, He will dress her with not only a sparkling body – whereof every atom is living Love – but will clothe her with talents and shower her constantly with His attention

..and, to all of you; it could be not for only áfter this lifetime – but, the ‘first fruits ‘ of it, IN this one, already
..concerning the bad situation in present worldtimes

- I ve to go
I pray, you didn t misunderstand
love
L

Comment by loneman | December 29, 2008
- and yes: I also visited faithhealers and pastors..

L

Comment by loneman | December 29, 2008
I still can’t understand the word-faith ‘formula’.If healing in the atonement is meant for this life (and not when we receive a new body),would not all who by faith received Jesus as Saviour and Lord then manifest physical healing in their bodies simultaneously as they receive spiritual healing(salvation).Or is a different set of faith required( one for salvation and another for physical healing) inorder to appropriate the redemptive benefit of atonement unto ourselves.If salvation and healing (for this life) is the ‘package’ benefit of atonement,then would that not mean that our salvation is suspect if we do not also receive physical healing in this life as it is the attached part of atonement.I hope you understand what I am trying to get at.Maybe IanVincent would like to comment.

Also if healing is in the atonement (and for this life) as wordfaith teaches,then the only explanation for people who are sick or do not receive healing,is their lack of faith or their sins.This is very cruel but that seems to be the logical deduction from wordfaith arguments which to me is false.( See Yuman: No Signs=No Believers= Not Christian)

I still believe in healing in the atonement but it will happen only when we receive our new glorified bodies.In the meantime there will be healings according to God’s sovereign will.Some will be healed,while many will not.It’s something we will not understand this side of eternity.

Barry K

Comment by Barry K | December 29, 2008
Yuman does sound a little crazy but as far as I can see it is biblical. It does illustrate the real problem.

What the bible claims should happen (moving mountains with a mustard seed of faith, healings, etc) doesn’t actually happen in our lives. I’m talking about physical things, healings, diamonds, feathers, whatever.

BB said: “Since there is little evangelizing in “Christian countries” there is little miracles. Just my 2cents.”

Well, I suppose that is as good a rationalization as any that would explain why the most educated Christian countries in the world wouldn’t see miracles, but poor African towns are experiencing a flux of child-witches and tons of amazing miracles. (that apparently cannot be captured on camera or verified)

As far as I know there is not a single documented case of a slam-dunk supernatural healing in in contemporary times. Please send me a link if you know of one.

It is always a bit of the “well, the cancer went into remission. Of course, that does happen from time to time naturally..” variety.

In light of this, I don’t think giving those who doubt the veracity of such claims (or that physical miracles happen at all) should be given a hard time.

Comment by mrfun | December 29, 2008
“and those, who give Him the free authorization to do that work, He will make their soul so pure and characterfull, that when that soul will meet Him, He will dress her with not only a sparkling body – whereof every atom is living Love – but will clothe her with talents and shower her constantly with His attention

..and, to all of you; it could be not for only áfter this lifetime – but, the ‘first fruits ‘ of it, IN this one, already”

Thank you, loneman. That thrills me and encourages me to persevere and not give up until I have extracted every atom of living love from this bad situation in present worldtimes.

It is good to hear from you again.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 29, 2008
Brad,

“Dear Karen your statement is without fact and a presumption that something is pre-ordained! You want me to accept it on blind faith? To me it’s no different than what the Moslem’s say and believe about everything that ” Allah wills it.”

One can say everything that Jesus said and did was pre-ordained in the sovereignty of God leaving out man’s inability to bring about any change on his own will and choices”…

Well, here we have it don’t we? This enormous debate in a little nutshell. The age-old foment between the Arminians and the Calvinists. Well, I agree with loneman, “our mínd is the real curse:
because it pretends it understands Him;” and if I must err here I will be wrong on the side of God’s omniscience, omnipotence, and the absolute reliability of his promises for the future.

Brad, I am puzzled how you can ignore John 5:17 “the Son can do nothing of himself; he can do only what he sees hes Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does”. I certainly hope the Father saw that needy Syro-Phoenician mother, and sent his Son to free her desperate daughter, otherwise there is little hope for me.

And Luke 4:25 “I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time , when the sky was shut up for three and a half years and there was a severe famine in throughout the land. Yet Elijah was not SENT to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon.”

He is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, and his eye is on the least of these, and he sends his ministers and ministering spirits, fullfills his promises, and none of that is dependent on my puny faith. Hallelujah! Does that make me passive and shrug my shoulders, and say “if the Lord wills?” Far from it! I am the ordained means by which he accomplishes His ends. I have the privelege, if I choose to obey, to evangelize the lost soul, or pray for their healing, but God gets all the glory, and I am built up in my weak faith.

Here is an example. One night, I was completely uneasy in my spirit, I knew something was terribly, terribly wrong with my daughter. This was during the first time she had disappeared after being in a special school for two years for treatment. I could not be at peace. I got my husband, we got on our knees, and prayed for our daughter, and her safety, and travailed in prayer for several hours that night until the burden felt for her very life was lifted.
A month later, I got an ambulance bill, that confirmed my fears for her life that night were very real. A lifesaving antinarcotic had to be administered. I knew the date for this procedure was that night I prayed, I had a record of it.

God did that for me to increase my faith in his promises to me that he would set that “cowering prisoner free, that she will not die in her dungeon” (Is. 51), and to give me the opportunity to declare what He had done to my daughter, and to warn her not to presume on his goodness. If I had not responded to that burden by praying for her life, it would have been the grossest disobedience, and that blessing of increased faith would have been given to another more willing servant who would not grieve His Spirit. Or perhaps, in a pinch, an Angel. It was his will to preserve her life that night. It may not always be so. He has assured me only that she will not lack the Bread of Life.

I like my unanswered questions a lot better than yours, Brad. You still have to struggle with the idea of a God not entirely in control of the universe, and who cruelly leaves the burden of a child’s death solely on the lack of faith of his grieving mother.

Comment by Karen Butler | December 29, 2008
When you get saved, does everything change in an instant for everyone? Or do you grow in grace? The spirit of man is made a new creature but the soul (mind, will, emotions) and the body are not.

Just as we grow in our understanding of how to have victory over sin in our flesh, so too we grow in the understanding of how to appropriate the healing of God for our bodies. It is a process.

Just like you don’t quit trying to be holy because you slipped up and sinned, you don’t quit believing in healing because you prayed once and didn’t get it. God wants us to be holy just like He wants us to be healed. Let’s believe Him for both while acknowledging that we aren’t perfect yet and sometimes need some help.

Comment by Javanut | December 29, 2008
Dear Sincere Followers of Jesus Christ,

I am have not yet arrived, but I believe I have found out what is my problem & millions of other “sincere” Christians.

It is not “Faith” like you understand.

It is not your “lack of Faith” like you’ve been told.

It is your understanding of the Words of Jesus Christ to His Disciples, first & foremost.

You are either a Disciple or a follower. A follower will fall away when trials & tribulation comes. Which I believe is very, very soon.

Nobody preaches the Words of Christ, why? Because they are Spiritual!

ANYBODY can preach & get people saved, you have videos to prove that! Paul said it didn’t matter if they did it for money or not,but that the Gospel was being PREACHED!

But you cannot RAISE THE DEAD, HEAL THE SICK, CAST OUT demons, or have God confirm His Word being preached with signs, wonders & miracles, WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!

It is the lack of the Holy Spirit operating in our lives why there are NO SIGNS, NO WONDERS, & NO MIRACLES present!!

Yes, First of All, YOU have to BELIEVE that the WORDS of Jesus Christ are MEANT FOR TODAY!!

By many of your reactions, I see you do NOT believe that the words of Christ are for today. You explained away my Savior Words with your “doctrinal” “denominational” statements.

In the Gospels you will find that Jesus is recorded to “heal them ALL” approximately 90 times!!!

In Acts it is recorded that the Apostles “HEALED THEM ALL.”

Also it is written, “That Jesus Christ of Nazareth went about destroying the works of satan & HEALING THEM ALL!!!”

Jesus said, “these works shall you do & GREATER WORKS, because I go the Father.”

Please, don’t let your own beliefs NEGATE THE WORDS OF OUR SAVIOR, I beg you to study His Words not your doctrinal statements.

We as His Disciples are to be Led by the HOLY SPIRIT & the Words of our Savior above whatever our churches teach!

Yes, Jesus Christ could not do MANY miracles, except cure a FEW sick folk! He still HEALED them ALL that came to HIM!

Yes, many didn’t come to see Jesus because of their UNBELIEF, they did NOT Believe that HE was the Son of God!

So what is your excuse for your UNBELIEF?

I’ll give you a statement from Paul also:

I did NOT come to you with covincing words of man’s wisdom but IN POWER & DEMONSTRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! Even clothes were taken from his body & demons were cast out!

We have a lack of HOLY Spirit in our “churches” & no lack of UNBELIEF!

The “agent” of our healing is the Holy Spirit flowing from one who is filled with the Spirit, a Believer, to one that needs a healing, whether in their body, soul or spirit!

These signs shall follow them that BELIEVE!!!!

They Shall Heal the Sick!

They Shall Raise the Dead!

They Shall Open Blind Eyes!

They Shall Cast Out demons!

They Shall Bind up the Broken Hearted!

Those are the Words of Jesus Christ, NOT what I made up!
Your “Arguement” is with Jesus, NOT me!

You shall receive POWER when the Holy Ghost has come upon you! Power to prove that you are a Child of God, by signs, wonders & miracles shall follow them that Believe.

No power, no signs, no wonders & no miracles following you, you are Not a Believer, a sincere follower maybe, not a Scriptual Believer!

Answer that with the Words of Jesus Christ of Nazareth!!

I am discovering after 50 years in church, born & raised, So. Baptist, & the last 28 yrs as a sincere seeker & Bible student that most of us Do Not Believe The Words of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. We are taught why we CANNOT be like Christ, NOT why we SHOULD BE like Christ!

In my life I am being convicted of how little I am being led by the Holy Spirit but by a spirit of fear, doubt, timidity, & UNBELIEF in the Words of My Saviour.

Please answer me with quotes from our Savior, if you cannot quote Jesus then I take it that you are not His Disciple, but hopefully a sincere follower.

Sincerely,

Comment by Yuman | December 30, 2008
I did use our Savior’s words from Mark 6. He couldn’t do many mighty works because of their unbelief. Please respond to our Savior’s experience when He went back home to Nazareth?

Please tell me, are you doing these things yourself? If not, why not? Do you know anyone that is now doing these great miracles anywhere? If so, where?

Comment by BB | December 30, 2008
Yuman, exactly how many dead have you raised or seen raised lately?

Exactly.

Comment by mrfun | December 30, 2008
This reminds me of the youtube video I saw posted here that has Patricia King talking about how her church group went into a morgue and asked to prey over the bodies to raise them.

“We didn’t raise any that day.. but we’re practicing! Soon now…!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPTjKr0KriM

Cracks me up.

Comment by mrfun | December 30, 2008
To BB,

I answered that. He Healed ALL who came to Him. He healed them, a few sick folk. That was ALL who came to be Healed!

Check out Curry Blake of John G. Lake’s Ministry. He has healed >70.000 & I believe raised 10-20 dead people.

He is the closest to Jesus Christ of Nazareth living today.

If you search you can find 18 of his cd’s for free to download.

Curry Blake is not hype & show & not prosperity driven, just wants to teach Christians how to be Christ like.

Like I said, I am getting rid of my unbelief & false doctrinal training that I have received in “church” for the last 50 years.

With all my heart I want to be like Jesus Christ of Nazareth, healing all, casting out all demons, raising the dead & preaching the Good News with signs, wonders, & miracles following & greater things to the Glory of Father God!

And, just as important, Making Disciples who do the Same!

Come Holy Spirit, Come!

mrfun, I think it is sick to make fun of someone that is at least trying to be like Jesus!

Jesus Christ said, “these signs shall follow them that believe” not Patricia King!

You need to be careful of who you are mocking! OR actually Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because it is He that does all the signs, wonders & miracles, not P. King or whomever!

Sincerely,

Comment by Yuman | December 30, 2008
Yuman

And because Curry Blake claims something does it make any more true than if Todd Bentley or Benny Hinn or Oral Roberts claims it?! Should you just believe it, or should you check his claims out?

If Curry Blake was the real business, please tell me why none of the NAR apostles go to him for their healings and raisings from the dead? Eg James Goll’s wife who died of cancer earlier this year, and Lakeland minister Ryan Wyatt’s brother who tragically died about a week ago in a car accident.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 30, 2008
Yunnan, the word of God warns us to beware of many false prophets and teachers that will arise in the endtimes.The Bible tells us to test every spirit and to be discerning and evaluate or judge them against God’s word concerning what we hear or see, least we, the very elect, get deceived.Many of us come from charismatic background and this a good discussion forumn and we should allow that.Pray the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth in accordance with God’s word.

Barry K

Comment by Barry K | December 30, 2008
Acts 28:8 And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him. 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

The bible tells me that Jesus and Paul healed all who had diseases but none of these modern healer have this kind of track record?????????????

Comment by brad | December 30, 2008
Dear endtimespropheticwords,

I don’t know why those people didn’t go to Curry Blake. Because 20 yrs ago he lost his first daughter to a disease & no “faith” healer would lay hands on his daughter. He made a promise to God that if God would teach him how to heal people he would go to anyone that would call him at HIS Expesne! Check him out for yourselves. I have sat under his 3 day teaching & downloaded his cd’s. I sincerely believe he is the real deal. The most successful & consistent that I have seen or heard about, anyway.

Dear Barry,
I don’t know of any “false prophet” that is quoting Jesus Christ & telling people to do what Jesus did & greater things to the glory of God! You can tell most false prophets by “well, yes Jesus did that 2000 yrs ago but we can’t do that TODAY!!!”

Dear Brad,

Exactly, Jesus Christ, & His Disciples & Paul healed them all, by the Power of the Holy Spirit!!!

And we are to do the SAME! Just because today’s “modern healers” are not consistant, that Does Not NEGATE the Words of Jesus Christ. “These signs shall follow THEM that BELIEVE!” Are you a Believer?

I Believe the Problem is the Lack of the POWER of the Holy Spirit in our lives in an ongoing consistant level!

JESUS CHRIST THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY & FOREVER!!! AMEN!!!

Let us be about healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, & preaching the good news with signs, wonders, & miracles following! And making Disciples to do the same!

I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but THIS WORLD is SICK, & GOING to Hell faster than any time in History.

What do you think the lost people are waiting for?

Doctrinal correct theology or someone that can raise their son or daughter off of death’s bed?

You heal their child & I will bet they will listen to your teaching!

JESUS CHRIST HEALED THEM ALL & COMMANDED HIS DISCIPLES TO DO THE SAME!!!

Are you a Disciple or just a follower?

Are you a Believer or just a sincere follower?

I don’t know about you, but I want to do all that Jesus Christ of Nazareth did & greater things for the Glory of God! Why, because those are the ONLY SIGNS of a BELIEVER!

Your degree or your “doctrinally sound theological teachings” are NOT the Signs of a Believer!

Read & Reread Matthew, Mark. Luke, John & Acts! PLEASE!!!

Sincerely,

Comment by Yuman | December 30, 2008
@Yman, you wrote ‘With all my heart I want to be like Jesus Christ of Nazareth’… and than you come up with only miracles and wonders and doing the great stuff. And preaching the Goods News… what is the good news in your eyes? That Jesus died for our sins, took the wrath of God so we could be forgiven and have eternal life…

If you want to be like Jesus, than you have to take up your cross and die of self. Being like Jesus is laying down your life and being a servant. Obeying God, His will be done, not yours. That is following Jesus and being like Jesus. Not because you can do all kind of miracles. The devil can do that too. But he can not follow Jesus, he can not obey God.

Comment by Ruitje | December 30, 2008
@Yuman, you have not answered the question someone asked: how many dead have you raised?
‘Cause it seems like you know how it works…

Comment by Ruitje | December 30, 2008
2Timothy 4:20 “…but Trophimus I have left sick in Miletus.”

I’m wondering why Paul didn’t heal this faithful brother?

Comment by BB | December 30, 2008
I think Yuman makes some valid points.Except I don’t think I agree with his/her definition of a follower and a disciple.I don’t know why we don’t see and do what Jesus and Paul et al. did. I’ve spent the last 17 years trying to believe/do what is taught in the scripture but to no avail.I swallowed a lot of false teaching which is probably the main reason, but I was sincerely trying to obey what I saw Jesus and Paul and the disciples do. I don’t know what else can be done but to love the Lord, worship Him, listen for His voice, study His Word and obey the best we can. If that doesn’t make one a disciple then there is not much hope for me.

Comment by DoubleGrace | December 30, 2008
God is concerned with both body and soul of the believer. He provides for both. But here we have no lasting home; we look for the one to come. We are sojourners here. If the Lord heals you physically, rejoice and give thanks and tell what the Lord has done that He may receive glory. If the Lord does not heal, rejoice and give thanks and seek out the mind of Christ behind the lesson He would have you learn. It is that you may follow Him in His path of sorrow and suffering; He has entrusted you with greater things.
Then come before His people and share what the Lord has shown you, that all may be built up and exhorted to endure all for Him.

Karen,
May the Lord Jesus continue to bless you. Your courage and trust and humility–the lack of bluster and false bravado in your words–are such a blessing, sister! May the Lord grant you the desires of your heart as you seek His will!

Comment by darren | December 30, 2008
Is it the will of God that we remain man-centered?
Is Christ not sovereign Lord? Do not those who love Him in truth and in spirit abide in Him and His commands? “Deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me.” Our Lord suffered and sorrowed in the flesh, and yet He rejoiced in the will of His Father. If we are to be conformed to the Lord, are we to have all the desires of the flesh in health and wealth, comfort and ease? Do you presume to make such an idol of Christ and His cross?
The Lord’s ways are higher than ours, and His thoughts greater, and it is the single eye trained upon Him that will see the value of eternal things and the worthlessness of all things temporal.
To seek for signs is the work of an evil generation. God does reveal Himself; God does heal, and God does not heal. Can you say, “Your will be done”, or have you been trained by your false teachers to see that as weakness–when in truth it is the ultimate in strength, for only those in Christ who have overcome the flesh in their love for the Giver of all things (not His gifts) can say those words from the heart.
The worldly-minded, no matter the profession of his mouth, will never understand the freedom of the spiritual man, for it is still his nature to pay highest regard to temporal things, and to find pleasure in the world and its distractions. It is the work of grace to detach us from all that is in the world, that we take delight in God as we see Him in Christ and the cross. No amount of padding or gilt will change the cross–we are to die upon it.
Oh, you prosperous and complaining professing Christians! Do you not see that the enemy of your soul does not care if you follow a false “faith” that leaves you spiritually dead in your flesh, and will deliver you to hell in the end? Will you presume to make God “work” for you in your formulas, you pharisees, and not see how sinful you are and how small? Ye gods, will you not die and see Sheol? Will you ransom one from death with your “words of faith”?

And for all of you who would hang the glory of Christ upon men who will die–God healed many through the apostles, through weak and despised and suffering and sorrowful yet rejoicing men, that He receive all glory and honor and be exalted. These were signs performed by God through men who were horrified at the thought that any would exalt them and not God. Truly, do you see this heart-attitude in any of the false “healers” of our day? Or do you have eyes to see those whom Christ warned us would come?

Comment by darren | December 30, 2008
Just an add on here to what’s been posted:

Have you met ‘Christian Scientists” ? (i mean the cult, not an actual Christian scientist!)

Every one i’ve met has one message: healing and health.

They are obsessed with their own health. Obsessed with their own bodies.

Enter Hagin and crew, who imbibed that same spirit.

As for Paul healing every one? He left Trophymus sick some where, another close brother of his nearly died of exhaustion, and Paul had an eye disease.

Which is why it was BIG of the Galatians to accept him ‘as an angel’ even, bcos they avoided this thinking: “He healed others but he can’t heal himself? Is he a legit Apostle? he can’t heal himself? ”

Again i want to say, it is the LORDSHIP of Christ we should be ‘obsessed’ with, not our own bodies.

If you are believing that it’s great faith which has kept you free from all sickness, then when you get sick, its your EGO which is offended : your bubble is burst, you’re not the great person you thought you were (speaking from my own failings).

Comment by ianvincent | December 30, 2008
Dear Saints.

I gave you the Words of My Lord & Savior:

“These Signs SHALL Follow THEM that BELIEVE.”

Therefore: if there are NO signs follow you or ME, then we are NOT BELIEVERS! Not yet anyway!

The whole world knows that Jesus healed ALL, delivered ALL. cast out ALL demons, raised the dead, opened blind eyes, cleansed the lepers, & preached the GOOD NEWS, etc, etc.

Everyone in the world EXCEPT “Christians!”

I, with the world, wonder why people who call themselves “Christians” are not doing the same thing Jesus did. Or at the very least ATTEMPTING TO!

The world is dying & going to hell, because you do not know or Believe the words of Jesus or Paul.

Jesus said, “If you don’t believe My Words believe the signs, the WORKS that I do!” to a religious group of people.

Paul said, “I DID NOT Come to you with Convincing words of Man’s Wisdom, (Paul mentioned everything that he learned under Gamaliel, was dung!) but in POWER, and DEMONSTRATION OF THE HOLY GHOST!”

I beg you to Read & Reread the GOSPELS & SEE for yourself what Jesus COMMANDED HIS DISCIPLES to Do!

ruitje- Jesus said, “the thief, satan, has come to KILL, STEAl & DESTROY” not to heal the sick & raise the dead! Reread your Bible!

BB-why does it matter? Jesus go heal all, & preach the GOOD NEWS! GO!

Doublegrace-continue in God’s Word & you will soon start being Christ like, in ALL areas of your Life! God Bless!!

derren- to much false teaching to answer. Read & Reread the Red Letter Words of Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

ianvincent- just because the cults are trying to be like CHrist that doesn’t NEGATE HIS COMMANDS to His Disciples!
But, yes, your “christian friends” will say that you are demonically insprired when they see you raise the dead, heal the sick, & preach the GOOD News with POWER & AUTHORITY, etc!

“GOD Confirmed their Words with Signs & Wonders following.”

Therefore: if you are “preaching” & there are NOT signs & wonders following then YOU are NOT preaching GOD’S wORD FOR THOSE PEOPLE!!!!! Read the WORD! God only CONFIRMS His Word!

I have not raise any dead people YET, but I am discovering why I am so full of fear & timidity & not full of POWER, LOVE & Sound Mind! 2 main reasons:

1) Partly because of 50 years sitting under demonically inspired doubt & unbelief teaching, under the 2 most “doctrinally sound” denominations, at least that is what they say anyway. I have to get all of that out of my mind by continually renewing my mind to the Words of Jesus!

2)Simply obeying what the Holy Spirit is telling me to do. A lot harder than I thought. Especially when all my friends & family members think I am crazy, they have even told me so. But I must obey my Savior & follow His Spirit!

I definitely haven’t arrived, but I am definitely a lot closer now than when I started this journey, to become Christlike!

There are NO EXCUSES for us Americans for not being able to read or listen to the Word of God!

I beg you to READ or LISTEN to the GOSPELS more than anything else! It is changing my life!

Sincerely,

Comment by Yuman | December 31, 2008
DoubleGrace,

“I don’t know what else can be done but to love the Lord, worship Him, listen for His voice, study His Word and obey the best we can. If that doesn’t make one a disciple then there is not much hope for me.”

Well, there is always Yuman’s example: Read only the red letters!

Comment by Karen Butler | December 31, 2008
Yuman,

You are very confused, and you have no peace for you are seeking power that belongs to God alone and you have left the truth of the Cross. Ours is a “rejoicing in hope” (Romans 12:12), for what we hope for is yet to come. This hope frees us to embrace suffering none would choose without hope in the resurrection, without which our sacrifices are to be pitied (read 1 Corinthians 15:19). Read Romans 5:3-4–hope is produced through endurance of affliction. God has many designs in suffering, one being(as with Paul’s thorn) to keep us from exalting ourselves, to keep us humbly dependent on our Father. Christ magnifies His power in our weakness–and He shares His glory with no man, so that power ever belongs to Him and is witness to Him, not to flesh. It is Satan who would turn us from God and destroy our faith–by failing to embrace our Father’s will in our afflictions and trials. Have you ever read the book of Job? Satan is ALLOWED by God to afflict the believer; the enemy’s purpose is to destroy, but in the same actions our loving Father is in control and seeking to purify and cleanse the heart of His child of inordinate love of self or others or the world, in so that He receive glory.
Read Philippians 3:7-8,10-11. The call of the Christian life is to live a life of sacrifice and loss and suffering–foolishness if there is no resurrection from the dead and joyful union with Christ then. This is an indictment of the whole of western churchianity; dead in sin, cold in love, worldlings fleeing from suffering, blind to the truth of Scripture for they cherry-pick banner verses and put periods where the Spirit placed a comma. No? Read Philippians 1:29; “To you it has been granted (echaristhe-freely given) for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to SUFFER for His sake”. Here we are told that it is a GIFT to us that we SUFFER for the sake of Christ who SUFFERED for us. Suffering is a gift to be embraced! Shame on the hirelings who refuse to prophesy (or preach) from the whole counsel of God! The wounded sheep are not bandaged, but are abandoned to the wolves, while others love it this way for they cannot bear to hear of forsaking the self and the world. We are to share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ (2 Corinthians 1:5). Can any but fools for Christ’s sake (1 Cor. 4:10) make the choices to live as the apostle did in 1 Corinthians 4:11-13? Certainly not, for it is here that love for God alone in Christ and the Cross are revealed, with the Lord exalted high above all temporal comforts and considerations! This is power that the carnal mind cannot perceive!

Read John 16:33, and do not be ignorant of this–if peace is granted us in Christ’s testament, the other half of the testament is a legacy of His sufferings. (S. Rutherford)

If contentment and absence of pain are attained here in this fallen world, then heaven is not heaven.

By His great grace, and through tribulation, may we attain the hope granted us in Christ Jesus, whose Name is exalted above every name.

And Yuman, the power of the gospel is God’s great and patient mercy towards sinful man, that through the Word blind eyes may be opened to the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus, that all may repent and believe and come freely to drink from the fountain of salvation opened at the Cross.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death. Revelation 2:11
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Revelation 12:11
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away. Revelation 21:4
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Do not be cowards. Be strong and courageous, for the sake of Christ who goes before us. Be humble and rejoice if our Father has chosen you to suffer for the Name of His Son. The Lord is holy; be holy. He is near; draw near to Him. Do not accept the consolation of the world. Guard your hearts. Glorify the Lord our God in your waiting for Him, for He exalts Himself to show mercy to you.

Blessings to the saints who love Jesus in spirit and in truth.

Comment by darren | December 31, 2008
Darren,

Thank you for your kind words to me, and I relish the rest of what you have written. I think you speak by the Spirit, who is preparing the Bride to suffer in the coming Tribulation. The western church is woefully unprepared. Your stirring defense of God’s ultimate purpose in our sorrow strengthens my hope.

Thank you for your prayers, Saints. And my daughter’s hand by the way, although she has not gotten treatment, is no longer inflamed and swollen!

Comment by Karen Butler | January 1, 2009
Wow that is great! Thanks for sharing.

Karen, bless you and your family. I pray that God would protect you all this year of 2009 and shelter you and keep you from all danger. With love.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 1, 2009
Thank you Miriam, and blessings on the New Year to you, as well. I do live the shelter of the most High, under the shadow of His wings, and must trust Him that my little flock will be covered as well. There is not much agreement yet between my husband and I regarding your visions, as yet. But I have an amazing, abiding peace.

Much love to you as well. Know that you are continually bathed in prayer from this little corner of the world.

Comment by Karen Butler | January 1, 2009
Dear Yuman,
The word of God has many warnings concerning false teachers and prophets( read Jude & Tim) but I will just quote the words of Jesus himself.’Beware of false prophets,who come to you in sheep’s clothing…..You will know them by their fruits.Matt 7:15.’ ‘Many will say Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,and in Your name perform many miracles?And then I will declare to them,I never knew you Matt 7:22′Is it still not clear to you that we should not accept blindly everyone who claim to be a prophet of Jesus without checking it against God’s Word like the Bereans do as well as test their fruits.

Barry K

Comment by Barry K | January 1, 2009
Darren,
I agree with Karen. Your words resonate with truth, and as one who is walking a very difficult path, may I say thankyou for the encouragement.
Karen,
I prayed for you and your family over Christmas: great news re your daughter.
Yuman,
You scare me!You seem as if you think you’re the only one who has ‘got it right’ ?!

Comment by Elizabeth A | January 1, 2009
Ps May God bless all my fellow ETPW bloggers in 2009, and a special prayer for you Miriam, that the Lord will use you even more mightily this year in the important work you are doing for Him. With love.

Comment by Elizabeth A | January 1, 2009
@Karen, you write to Darren I think you speak by the Spirit, who is preparing the Bride to suffer in the coming Tribulation. The western church is woefully unprepared..

I think you are so right. That’s the burden on my heart for the last years too. I see that so many christians are not prepared for what is coming. They don’t know the Word (the Truth you need to uncover the lies) and don’t know the Holy Spirit who will lead us in all truth.

It’s time the Bride is prepared in the right way, not with big miracles, wonders, signs and ‘third-heaven-trips’ and angels.

Revelation 14:12 is so clear about how we can stand in the dark times that are coming: obey Gods commandments (all that He has spoken in the Word and what Jesus teached us) and keep the faith in Jesus.

Comment by Ruitje | January 1, 2009
All the best everyone in Jesus for the new year.

I also got Psalm 91 this morning, for the new year:

Psalm 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation.

———————————————————

RE: healing in the atonement

It may seem like splitting hairs (this subject) but it behooves me to never entertain something which is not true, for Jesus’ sake. Even if some people can’t see the relevance of it.

The Atonement was FOR our sin, not FOR our sicknesses.

YET, bcos our sins have been removed and we are IN Christ, and have a share in His Righteousness, as joint-heirs with Him : on this basis alone, we can have great boldness to believe for health and healing, and protection from the enemy, who has the power to inflict Christians with disease, if he is given place.

Therefore, my basis for believing for health and healing is Christ’s Atonement for my sins (not for my sicknesses) after the fact that God amply revealed in the OT that He desired and promised such for His people.

If the understanding of what “Jesus’ name” means is not there, then confusion is the result. Jesus’ name means Jesus’ specific will. It means the Holy Spirit has specifically led you to pray or command healing.

The ‘answer’ to everything is in believing Jesus atoned for your sins.

Comment by ianvincent | January 1, 2009
Yuman,
I read what you have written and what I sense is you want to be Jesus. You want to have the power Jesus did and greater and this is a lie from the pit of hell. It is taking the truth of the Gospel and perverting it.

Do signs and wonders follow. Absolutely. But note a key word, they follow. It is not something pursued or even demanded, they simply follow. God does as God wills.

Did you know Yuman, that for a believer death is the ultimate healing? To live is Christ (filled with suffering) to die is gain (freedom from the tryanny of suffering).

Also the focus on the body is a distraction when the focus should first be on the spiritual level. The starting point is being right with God.

Now I am seeking and growing in understanding of God’s will in healing. Some do argue that God wills all to be healed in this life but I don’t see that. Jesus did not heal all. The apostles didn’t heal all.

And I ask what is the obsession with raising the dead. No believer need be raised, to do so would be cruel and if GOd does He would have a greater purpose in that believers life and something to be learned. Now unbelievers to be raised would certainly be of value, if the raising were to bring their salvation.

Now God can and does heal in accordance with his will but he also allows suffering. Yet, admist it all His peace is available. Everything in this life is but temporary. We lose sight of that fact.

This life is filled with suffering because this life is filled with sin and the consequences of it. Even if one was perfectly without sin, there is no absence of suffering. Jesus faced the suffering to pay for our sins and give us way to bridge the gap between us and God and bring True Peace.

And since suffering comes from sin, yes there is healing in the atonement, but the ultimate healing is not in this life. No where in the Bible does it promise such, but God does work in accordance with His will, and healing is always about His will not our. WHen God heals, he has a greater purpose then the removal of suffering.

Comment by peacebringer | January 1, 2009
Thank you Elizabeth A!

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 1, 2009
Darren,

I am sorry I didn’t realize I was on a Catholic website. EVERYTHING you just said was straight from the “whore of Bablyon” suffering & misery teachings!

As BELIEVERS Let us stick to the Words of Jesus Christ.

One Rule:

If I or you state anything that DISTORTS or NULLIFIES the Red Letter Words of JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH then I or YOU are the ANTICHRIST! All Scripture expounds or magnifies the words & life of Christ, not to be used to negate the words of Christ!

So I am going to use the Words of the Abundant LIFE Giver!

Jesus said, ” I have come that YOU might have LIFE & THAT more ABUNDANTLY!” That is EXCEEDINGLY ABOVE the “good life” that is the ABUNDANT LIFE!

Sickness, diseases, hell, misery, agony is NOT the Abundant life! That life is from satan;

Why? Becuse Jesus Christ says, “the thief, satan, has come to KILL, Steal & destroy!” not Jesus.

Job was OT & God DOUBLY blessed him!! How about You! Talk about PROSPERITY, but I will not go there! Most “Believers” are not experiencing Job’s DOUBLE BLESSINGS!! Just the SATANIC attack that probably lasted a year by the way, NOT a LIFETIME like most “Christians” lives!

Jesus said, “I give YOU power & authority to tread upon serpents & scorpions & All the power of the enemy!”

Jesus Christ told HIS DISCIPLES to pray, “Father, they KINGDOM COME, Thy WIll be done on EARTH as it is in HEAVEN!!!

THERE IS NO SICKNESS, DISEASE OR SUFFERING IN HEAVEN!!!

At least not in the heaven I am going to!

Mine & Your job is to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, not the kingdom of hell!!!!

You will suffer PERSECUTION, IF you start healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons,etc,etc. Why? Not by “SINNERs” But by so called “saints” that have no power & intimacy with JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH OR HIS FATHER!!!

Jesus said, “Go heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, & then preach Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!”

Then IF YOU DO that THEN your will be PERSECUTED, jailed, tortured, beaten by “religious” people, etc.!! That is SUFFERING for the GOSPEL SAKE!!! NOTHING ELSE!!!!!

JESUS never said, “you will be sick, diseased, weak, having no power, or authority, tormented by demons.” THis is what YOU are SAYING!!! A direct PERVERSION of what Jesus said!
You & all who Believe that satanic garbage are the ANTICHRISTS! Your teaching NULLIFIES the words of Jesus!!

IMITATE JESUS CHRIST & HIM ALONE!!

FOR YOUR SAKE & THIS SICK & DYING WORLD!

I beg you again READ THE WORDS OF CHRIST JESUS ALONE!!!

Sincerely,

Comment by Yuman | January 1, 2009
@Yuman: you wrote “Jesus Christ told HIS DISCIPLES to pray, “Father, they KINGDOM COME, Thy WIll be done on EARTH as it is in HEAVEN!!! THERE IS NO SICKNESS, DISEASE OR SUFFERING IN HEAVEN!!!
At least not in the heaven I am going to!
Mine & Your job is to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, not the kingdom of hell!!!!”

First: it is not our job to fully establish the Kingdom of God, Jesus will establish the Kingdom finally when He returns. Are you a dominion-believer?

And about the will of God done in heaven and on earth?
Well, that has to do with obeying God and do what He says. The angels obey God, Jesus obeyed His Father when He came to earth and died on the cross. This prayer is speaking about obeying God (not imitating Jesus), laying down your life and obey Him (That means serving Him, worship Him and not serving idols or miracles.

And we will be persecuted, not when we heal the sick, but when we preach the Gospel, that Jesus died for our sins, and if you believe in Him, you will be saved from hell. When we say that Jesus is the only way to the Father (Way, Truth and Life), than we will be perscuted, not when we heal the sick and do miracles. The devil can do miracles to, but he will not obey God.

And Yuman, why are you ’shouting’ and ’screaming’ (the way you use capitals and !!!) in your response?

Comment by Ruitje | January 1, 2009
@Peacebringer: Amen!

Comment by Ruitje | January 1, 2009
“Mine & Your job is to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, not the kingdom of hell!!!!”

Umm, what was that you just said, Yuman? Clarify please. That’s kind of a slippery slope and you’re about to step on a banana peel.

Comment by karina | January 1, 2009
In the cases where it’s discerned that a person’s sickness is due to their sin, then, it will be a repentance based on faith in Christ’s Atonement for sin which can be the ‘prayer of faith’ to raise the sick (James). In such cases, dealing with the sin can open the door for God to heal.

‘When’ sickness relates to personal sin then it is the sin which is the issue, not whether healing is in the Atonement or whether a person has faith for healing.

Not every case of poor health is due to personal sin, naturally.

Comment by ianvincent | January 2, 2009
Thanks ianvincent,

Yes, sin can bring sickness & disease & Jesus said,”No one sinned but this is for the glory of God.”

So yes, there is most likely sin involved when we get sick, no doubt! Other times it is just a satanic attack!

I will not post again, I will do like Jesus Christ said, “If they reject you, don’t lose heart, they rejected Me first.”

I wipe the dust off of my feet of this site & will go to the lost, sick & dying world that wants the Good News & that need their body, soul & spirit healed, delivered & set free from satan & his demonic religion of misery.

I beg ALL of You to read the Red Letter Words of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I hope & pray the sincere Disciples will.

Good bye, I pray that you wake up from your demonic delusions about Jesus Christ & find out for yourself the Abundant Life that He gave you through His death, burial & resurrection.

Sincerely,

Comment by Yuman | January 2, 2009
“Mine & Your job is to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, not the kingdom of hell!!!!”, Yuman screamed.

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you (or within you, or within your grasp)”.
And He said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them. For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in His day. But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.” Luke 17:20-25
Yuman, you pointed to Luke 10:19, and yes, Jesus did tell the disciples that nothing would hurt them, and in the next verse He said, “Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” Why did He say that? Do you think the One who knows the hearts of men does not know how easily men are corrupted by such power in the flesh? “The demons are subject to us!” And do you see how quickly His hearers are to forget His commandments to deny self, take up the cross daily and follow Him? (Luke 9:23-25). And He said, “whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.” And this does not contradict “nothing will hurt you.” The abundant life is in the One who has overcome the world, in Christ through whom we may have peace with God, though here in the world we have tribulation. The disciple is not above his Master. By faith, the child of God seeks the city that is to come and does not walk according to the flesh, knowing that “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him,” and we are “heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.” (Romans 8:10,17). The child of God in Christ says, “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us,” knowing that our hope is in the revelation that is to come, though for now He tarries and we will suffer for we follow Jesus Christ, who “although He was a son, He learned obedience through what He suffered, and being made perfect , He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.” (Hebrews 5:8-9). And let us remember the words of Peter: “For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in His steps.” 1 Peter 2:21. And, “Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.” 1 Peter 4:1-2.

There is more in the whole counsel of God on our suffering in the flesh as did our Lord, but let this suffice.

Yuman, I ask you, if this is the counsel of God on this matter, who then among us denies it and speaks the words of antichrist? You are puffed up beyond reason by your sensous mind. Have you been corrupted by the leaven of the false teachers you have chosen to follow? Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

And let us all take in the counsel of God through His servant Peter, who being inspired by the Spirit wrote these words concerning the prophecy of Isaiah: “when He suffered, He did not threaten, but continued entrusting Himself to Him who judges justly. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.” Here is the only healing that matters for all eternity. Christ Jesus be praised.

Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

Comment by darren | January 2, 2009
By the way, I am not Roman Catholic, and neither do I submit to any “denomination”.

Comment by darren | January 2, 2009
Elizabeth, Karen, Miriam, all here in Christ,
Let us remember that it is our waters which ebb and flow, not our Rock. Stand firm, beloved! Let us pray each other home.
Be blessed, saints. Our Lord is near.

Comment by darren | January 2, 2009
IanVincent says ‘the answer to eveything is in believing Jesus atoned for your sins’. I would like to add that in the atonement he healed our spiritual and physical diseases which is the CONSEQUENCE OF SIN.Our spiritual healing brought about the restoration of our fellowship with God and our physical healing will restore us back to perfect health and overcome death when we receive our new bodies at glorification.We can’t have perfect health now, as that will mean walking around in a glorified body. That’s not possible.But we can pray for healing for ourselves and others and beleive He will work everything for our good according to His will and eternal perspective.HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone.

Barry K

Comment by Barry K | January 2, 2009
RE: “I wipe the dust off of my feet of this site & will go to the lost, sick & dying world that wants the Good News & that need their body, soul & spirit healed, delivered & set free from satan & his demonic religion of misery.”

Yuman, do you actually do the things you rail about? Will you go to the lost and preach the gospel, or will you just find another forum to post your ravings?

I’m seriously asking you, do you live by the message you preach? If so, more power to ya. If not…….

Comment by ianvincent | January 2, 2009
Yuman said “Job was OT & God DOUBLY blessed him!!”

Random thought:

I wouldn’t call killing my wife and children and then giving me a new wife and twice as many children “doubly blessed”. That just isn’t how love works.

I mean, you can’t exactly expect Job to say “Wow, thanks, God!” like a mentos moment.

The message of Job is really “I’m God, don’t question me” if you read it closely.

Comment by mrfun | January 2, 2009
@Yuman: If I read your prideful comments, you must be sinless, without disease and super holy… Are you thinking you are Jesus himself? Are you thinking you are a little god??

Have you healed the sick already? Have you raise the dead?

Yuman, I think you should read your whole bible, repent and be humble. The way you are judging people is without love.

I think you are deceived…

Comment by Ruitje | January 2, 2009
Jesus taught according to your faith so be it to you and that it was just as easy for Him to heal a person as it was to forgive sin?

I find it amazing that some people have great faith in eternal security or OSAS but no faith in God’s ability to heal people. The bible tells us:

Psalm 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: 103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases, 103:4 Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies, 103:5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

JN 10:10 “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

The bible also tells us that Satan put sickness upon and took away the physical wealth of Job who was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. But then God under an inferior Old Testament Covenant healed Job and restored double all his wealth and After this Job lived one hundred and forty years, and saw his children and grandchildren for four generations. So Job died, old and full of days.

But many of today’s Christians die poor and before their time when God is not supposed to be a respecter of persons and is the same, yesterday, today and forever! This doesn’t make sense at all?

Comment by susan | January 3, 2009
“The bible also tells us that Satan put sickness upon and took away the physical wealth of Job who was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. But then God under an inferior Old Testament Covenant healed Job and restored double all his wealth and After this Job lived one hundred and forty years, and saw his children and grandchildren for four generations. So Job died, old and full of days.

But many of today’s Christians die poor and before their time when God is not supposed to be a respecter of persons and is the same, yesterday, today and forever! This doesn’t make sense at all?”

Susan,

And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.” Job 2:6

Who then is in ultimate control? Does this “make sense” to you? Who allowed the afflictions of Job, and to what purpose?

Do you know anything of the persecuted church in our day? Our brothers and sisters are dying in dark places around the world today. Do you know anything about them? What would you say to them?

While you seek answers which gratify your fear and the flesh, you will not know peace. Read John 16:1, and may the Spirit grant you eyes to see.

Comment by darren | January 4, 2009
But, Darren, Job did not have a covenant with God like we do. He did not know what you know.

He had never read Isaiah where it says that He bore our sicknesses and carried our diseases. He never knew that Matthew proved that it mean physical sickness and physical disease. He didn’t know that the Lord was His Healer – He had never heard that name before.

The reason that Job was in the devil’s hand was due to Job, not God. God does not fight the devil. You have to resist the devil, and He will flee from you.

Job was ignorant of all this. Job had no pastor, no Word, no preaching, no revelation, no knowledge of Christ in the flesh, no New Covenant, no knowledge of the name of Jesus Christ.

What is your excuse?

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | January 4, 2009
Darren is right. God is the one in ultimate control. He decides. We are supposed to have faith, but our faith can’t do squat without God acting on it.

The Bible says, “Who is it who declares a thing and it comes to pass, if the Lord has not commanded it?”

Our words do not have one ounce of power, regardless of our knowledge of the Word. The power is all God’s, and He doesn’t have to “obey” our faith like He’s our servant.

God also jumped all over Job’s three “friends” who said it was Job’s fault for what happened to him, and yet that is completely ignored by the WOF people to this day, because it goes against their false teaching that God HAS to obey our faith, and our words themselves have power (Gloria Copeland) and will dry up the sickness, etc.

Comment by Gary | January 4, 2009
Gary

>> if the Lord has not commanded it?

Perhaps this is a good time to bring up the issue of authority and the calling/being sent out. Which I think is a key here.

New thread here on this: http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/authority-to-heal-and-cast-out-demons/

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 4, 2009
Interesting study about Job, from John Piper.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByTopic/32/498_Job_Wrestling_with_Suffering/

Comment by Ruitje | January 4, 2009
Darren is right. God is the one in ultimate control. He decides. We are supposed to have faith, but our faith can’t do squat without God acting on it.

So if our faith is useless why did Jesus tell us in MK 9:23 “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes?”

Comment by susan | January 4, 2009
Miriam, the verse is Lamentations 3:37. This is the New King James version.

“Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass,
When the Lord has not commanded it?”

No, Susan, I wouldn’t say our faith is useless, and the Word says, “The just shall live by faith.” At the same time, God is the boss, not us. All things are possible. That doesn’t mean all things we declare are going to happen, because all things are not in God’s will.

Comment by Gary | January 4, 2009
Gary

To clarify, I agree with you on this scripture –

“Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass,
When the Lord has not commanded it?”

God is boss. We cannot demand our will and way.

BUT we also need to know if and when the Lord HAS commanded it. Hence my raising the theme of authority to heal. For that would alter drastically how people act, pray and expect.

Peter did not just say to the crippled man at the temple gate: ‘if God wills it, rise up and walk…’ or ‘please God, heal this man’ – he said ‘in the name of Jesus, rise up and walk…’!

He also drove out demons. He did not just pray that God would get rid of them. This all conveys his knowing his commission and authority.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 4, 2009
No, Susan, I wouldn’t say our faith is useless, and the Word says, “The just shall live by faith.” At the same time, God is the boss, not us. All things are possible. That doesn’t mean all things we declare are going to happen, because all things are not in God’s will

Gary when we are truly filled with the Holy Spirit and not unholy spirits and are moved by the Spirit of God what we speak will come to pass because it’s from the Spirit not from the flesh. Most of the things that are said or done in the church of the flesh are of the flesh or of demons and that is why nothing happens!

We need to get back in the Spirit and live and walk in the Spirit as the word commands us and then we will see the fruit of our words:

GAL 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Comment by susan | January 4, 2009
“But if you can do anything…”
Jesus answered, “‘If you can! All things are possible for one who believes.”

Be careful taking this out of context, for the flesh (the ego) is wily. You cannot wrest power and glory from God to serve man’s selfish desires.

Christ did not serve Himself. He did the will of the Father, not His own.

How did Christ help the unbelief of the child’s father? By saying, “well then, believe and cast it out”? No. Christ performed this miracle, as all others, that the people gathered would repent and believe in God and the Son whom He has sent. All power and authority remain with God.

Jesus then teaches His downcast disciples that work in the flesh avails nothing–why else would He have to remind them (and us) that prayer (and fasting) were necessary? All is yet by the will of God alone, with or without our submission and understanding. Will we not fare better if we know that the love of our Father is not diminished nor heightened by His answer of “Yes”, or “No”?

Comment by darren | January 4, 2009
Susan, I agree with you that most of the things that are said or done in church are of the flesh. I have already given my testimony of what happened in the very corrupt church I attended from March 1998 to June 2002 in Blog No. 48, and other testimonies in other blogs on this Website concerning WOF, positive confession, giving to Christian TV ministries, seed faith teaching, etc.

I am not going into detail of what I was doing, but back then my life was totally for God, including constant prayer, praise, worship, study, fasting, and just about nothing on TV but Christian TV (which I know now is almost all WOF, as false as it can be).

Also every bit of extra money (after bills) for about seven years went for tithes (false also) and offerings, and false tapes and books I thought was real (Copeland and his buddies’ ministries).

I was baptized in the Holy Spirit by the Lord in July 1995 in my bedroom after three days (2 1/2 hours each day) alone of praising God. I was led to do this by the Lord. It was not at church, and nobody laid hands on me for that at any church or anywhere. I also wasn’t looking for that.

The Lord gave me two great victories of healing of family members back then, and I even testified at a revival and told the people the same thing you and Yuman are saying, “If you can just have enough faith, by His stripes we are healed!”

Later the Lord chose not to heal my terminally ill father from pancreatic and liver cancer, and I had laid hands on him, declared his healing in complete faith (Not saying, “If it be Your will”) and thanked the Lord for it. I never let up in my faith, and he lived about 10 months after being diagnosed, when the doctor told him he had only about three months to live.

He was saved in a Baptist church, and the Lord chose to take him home about two to three weeks after being saved. I was absolutely shocked when he went home to the Lord, but very grateful he had gotten saved, which is by far the most important thing.

I am not saying this in the least bit of trying to say how holy I am (or was, as I will admit my faith and obedience is nothing at all like it was for not only this, by many other reasons, mainly concerning the corrupt Copeland church).

However, like Karen Butler, nobody can tell me I didn’t have enough faith, and that’s why my father died. Or that I was in the flesh then. And you don’t have a clue who has unholy spirits on them, though there certainly are a lot who I believe do in the Copeland, et al followers on TBN, etc.

I was in the Spirit as much as I could possibly be at that time, not in the flesh as I am now. At the same time, I completely agree with you about people living for the devil while calling Jesus Lord and assuming they are still going to heaven regardless, because of all of the false teaching about this.

And I also agree with Miriam that we probably need to hear God’s will about a situation, and then we’ll know how to pray and have the faith in the situation.

Maybe I’ve overreacted with this comment, but I’ll bet a lot of people who have lost loved ones despite praying and believing would agree with me, and they don’t want to be told it’s their fault because they weren’t in faith or they were in sin, etc. Only God knows if that was the case.

Comment by Gary | January 4, 2009
You are absolutely right that the flesh is wily, Darren.

This is why when it comes to healing we cannot say “God will do whatever He wants”. He has made it clear that He is the Lord Our Healer, that He has redeemed us from sickness and disease, that by the stripes of the precious Lord Jesus we are healed.

If someone who was weary came to the Lord, and said “You don’t know what God will do, God is the Boss”, you would say “Actually I do know what God will do, He will give that person rest and in no ways will He cast them away.”

If someone had sinned and wondered if God would forgive, I would tell them that God is faithful and just and forgives us from all our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

If someone had a need, I would explain that God meets all our need according to His riches, I would not say “Well, God’s the boss, you don’t know what He will do.”

I agree God is the Boss. He is God, I am not. He is Lord, I am not. However, it is BECAUSE He is the Boss, that when He says that he redeemed me from sickness and that He heals all our diseases and that His Word is health to all my flesh, that I agree with Him. It is because He is the Boss I don’t present traditions or religious cliches or my experiences or my Nan’s experiences against His Word and His precious and true promises.

You reference Matthew 17 in your post Darren, but seem to miss the entire point. The disciples could not heal a boy. They asked Jesus why not. Jesus did not tell them that it was because God’s will was mysterious or that you never know what God is going to do, or anything like that. He told them: because of your unbelief.

When the sick are not healed, I don’t blame God’s capricious will. I go and spend time in the Word because faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God and all things are possible to Him who believes. To those who believe, they will lay their hands on the sick and they will recover. According to your faith be it unto you. If we believe, we will do the works that Jesus did.

It is that simple: believe and receive or doubt and do without. Get rid of religious traditions that do not line up with the Word of the living God and preach the Word and signs and wonders always follow the preaching of the Word.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | January 4, 2009
Ben,
Are there cancer wards in your city? Are they empty, Ben?
Though the world hates Christ, and the media most often mock His followers, seems I would have heard of your great miracles, done with your word of faith. Otherwise you are yet another disciple of Hagin–who died of disease, by the way. Seems even that man of healing could not heal himself in the end.

I did not say anything about mystery or about a capricious God. I say that all authority is His alone. Christ knew the Father’s will through constant communion in prayer–such as we are exhorted to. He did not teach that faith was a force to be exherted to bend the will of God to the desires of man.

Comment by darren | January 4, 2009
Visited your site, Ben.

Word-faith is damnable heresy, Ben.

You are a deceived deceiver, Ben.

Thus you read this: How did Christ help the unbelief of the child’s father? By saying, “well then, believe and cast it out”? No. Christ performed this miracle, as all others, that the people gathered would repent and believe in God and the Son whom He has sent. All power and authority remain with God.

And you answer with this: The disciples could not heal a boy. They asked Jesus why not. Jesus did not tell them that it was because God’s will was mysterious or that you never know what God is going to do, or anything like that. He told them: because of your unbelief.

“I don’t present traditions or religious cliches or my experiences,” says Ben. Unless they are the traditions and cliches and experiences of the heretics you follow? Your words are nothing but devotion to Kenyon, Hagin, Copeland, Capps, Hinn, et al.

Go, Ben, and put your healing hands on the poor in the alleys and the homeless shelters–but wait–no profit in that, eh? As the members of your cult say (one of their cliches, actually), “It is all about the MONEY.”

Comment by darren | January 4, 2009
Darren,

There is no Scripture in your post at all. There seems to be very little of the fruit of the spirit as well.

If you want to discuss the many Scriptures that I have cited and what the Bible teaches about Jesus Christ redeeming us from sickness, I am happy to present the truth of the Word of God and discuss the wonderful truth of Scripture.

If all you want to do is call me names and make comments that are utterly unfounded (I planted a church in September and have not taken a single offering or request for money at any time. I have paid for all the hire costs, the publicity costs and even the biscuits from my pocket. All about the money is a ridiculous thing to say and merely reveals your ignorance about me and what I believe…)

If you want to called me a damned heretic, with all the implications of that, then why does your post not share the gospel with me? If you thought I was damnable, surely you should have shared with me the path to salvation? Would that not have been the loving thing to do?

Anyway, I have no desire to be called this that and the other, especially by someone who is supposed to be a brother in the Lord, so I will bow out gracefully from this argument.

To all,

If anyone wants to hear some testimonies of true miracles, such as people getting up out of wheelchairs and a deaf baby being healed, feel free to email me.

Blessings to you all, and love,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | January 5, 2009
Ben

Do you have any medically verified miracles?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 5, 2009
Ben

I know of several wonderful Godly saints with faith to the end, who died of their illnesses. Some praying believers named and claimed healing, others prayed believing while trusting God with the final outcome.

Please read ‘where is God when it hurts’ by Philip Yancey. This is a man who truly understands Gods heart, through experience with suffering christians.

If you were to find yourself diagnosed with an incurable illness (I do NOT wish it upon you) causing you to reach out with dynamic faith, yet in His sovereignty healing alluded you, maybe then you would get real.

I have been there – Done that. Please DO NOT SUGGEST FOR ONE MOMENT I DID NOT HAVE FAITH, if you do it will make you a liar. Not everyone in scripture was healed including Paul who asked 3 times and was denied.

It is very upsetting for families to have ‘prophetic words’ given of promises of healing and then God calls the loved one home. It results in unecessary upset and confusion. There may be times when a lack of faith is evident, BUT NOT ALWAYS, God does not always heal, He is sovereign.

Comment by Sylvia | January 5, 2009
“I don’t present traditions or religious cliches or my experiences,” says Ben. Unless they are the traditions and cliches and experiences of the heretics you follow? Your words are nothing but devotion to Kenyon, Hagin, Copeland, Capps, Hinn, et al.

So Ben, you supplant the truth with the heretical revelations of known greedy liars, you boast of your work to draw others to this false gospel, then bait the weak with “miracles”–then speak of the lack of love in another?

And do you not stand to financially prosper from this institution you have planted?

Again, what have you done for the poor, Ben–not pew-sitters who will throw money in your plate, but the poor; have you walked amongst them, as a “little christ”, a “little god” healing them? You do what you think is the work of Christ Jesus, yes? He did not call them to a building and ask for tithes, “love offerings”, or other forms of worldly payment–He healed them freely right where they were. Do you? Freely you received, freely give. Or do you seek the glory of men, just as you justify yourself before men?

Comment by darren | January 5, 2009
According to Gloria Copeland, when the Lord said His grace was sufficient for Paul’s thorn in the flesh that he had asked three times to be healed of, He meant that He had already given Paul the healing, and Paul just needed to hook up to it by faith, which he didn’t do.

These word-faith folks just know so much more than even the Apostle Paul. They teach total victory all the time, not ultimate victory with troubles in between like Jesus said.

The Apostle Paul was just such an ignoramus. He didn’t have the faith these folks have, and he was in trouble all the time, so you know he just had to be in terrible secret sin.

He also dared to be honest when he was in despair. These word-faith people never are, at least in public. Whatever the problem, all you need to do is sow a seed to them and it’s plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh, what a relief it is, just like Alka-Seltzer.

The Apostle Paul was honest. He was not arrogant and outright lying to get people excited and stay excited so he could get their money.

All of these people who have it all figured out, even more than Paul did, really need to be emptying out the hospitals. Otherwise, they are very negligent when there is so much suffering that they could relieve if they are not doing so.

And if that is being done, it would be all over the media, and we wouldn’t have to find out by having to ask them directly, like Ben wants us to do.

Comment by Gary | January 5, 2009
Maybe we’re missing something here. Maybe God knows when a person is ready to receive healing and when they aren’t. Maybe if we listened to the Spirit – we would know who to pray for and who not to.

When Jesus prayed for the man at the pool of Bethsaida – He didn’t heal everyone there. He healed one man. Seems rather silly to me to say if you can’t empty out a hospital then all healing is false. God never said go empty out hospital wards.

I think God may lead you to minister at a hospital. He may lead you to comfort those who mourn, or are afraid or worried and bring the love and peace of Jesus to them. Pray with them for healing and leave it in God’s hands as to when it happens or how.

Let the compassion of God come up out of you and share it with the world.

Comment by Javanut | January 5, 2009
Yes, two. I tend not to bother with medical verification. If you pray for someone who cannot walk and then they can, then you don’t need 6 years of university to prove that they have been healed, just a little bit of common sense.

A lot of time people want medical verification because they want something that thrills their senses. In the book of Acts, the crippled man went to the temple to testify, not to the doctors to check it out.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | January 5, 2009
Ben

>>Yes, two.

Can we see them?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 5, 2009
Ben,
What a pity that Darren’s words offended you. I do believe that Darren shows much spiritual fruit through the posts on this site.
This has proved a very emotive subject, and of course we are going to quote from personal experiences, as I have done.
I know of a church(where my Mum is a member) which is being greatly blessed: many coming to faith, being baptized, delivered from addictions etc etc and YET the daughter of one of the ministers died of cancer (in her 30’s). She absolutely believed God would heal her. There was abundant faith in the congregation. They have had other sad losses and untimely deaths. Of course there have been healings too. My Mum was anointed with oil when she had a severe back problem, and the very simple prayer of an elderly lady was answered, praise God! Incidentally, my Mum still has her diabetes and heart condition.
Now explain to me why/how that was because of ‘unbelief’!

Comment by Elizabeth A | January 5, 2009
I have been to Renewal Christian Centre in Solihull (a Free Methodist) where there are many healings, all of which are medically verified.
As an aside: the ministers of Renewal posted some interesting stuff on Youtube re Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson and God TV (see David Carr, Richard Taylor)

Comment by Elizabeth A | January 5, 2009
ONLY TWO? Great for those two (if real), but what about the hundreds who are not…………..

Comment by Sylvia | January 5, 2009
People ARE healed by the Lord Jesus of course, but not by the heretical message of “on demand”, it is just not like that. If only it was…….. we would never be ill and never die wow.

Comment by Sylvia | January 5, 2009
It would be good to see this Elizabeth A.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 5, 2009
Gary

To be fair, the phrase “thorn in the flesh” in the OT refers to contentious opposers of the gospel, not sickness.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 5, 2009
I found this video from Dr. David Carr of Renewal Christian Centre after some searching on youtube, I think it’s the one Elizabthe A is referring to.

Comment by David | January 5, 2009
Thanks, Miriam. I had heard that before and had forgotten about that. Gloria Copeland did teach what I said she did in my comment, however. And she meant it as sickness when she taught that.

I believe you are right, though.

Comment by Gary | January 5, 2009
My only other reply on this is that I nor Darren never said if the hospitals aren’t being emptied out, then all healing is false. I never said healing is false. I just said God doesn’t have to and doesn’t always obey our demand for healing, like He’s our servant. I’ve seen two great healings in my own family.

What I was referring to was the arrogance of some people on this subject, and was saying that if what THEY are saying is true (100 percent healing all of the time), then THEY really should be emptying out the hospitals. We all know it’s not.

Comment by Gary | January 5, 2009
I’m not sure whether Renewal CC has testimonies etc on it’s website but here are the links I spoke of (though this may not be the most useful place to post them!):

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g73n9izu5r0&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UEDhDr61W7Q&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iVu48lZMV_I&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n5mKWAe6oh4&feature=related

Comment by Elizabeth A | January 5, 2009
Elizabeth: I can’t find this link. Could we give me more info.

the ministers of Renewal posted some interesting stuff on Youtube re Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson and God TV (see David Carr, Richard Taylor)

Comment by Ester | January 5, 2009
Hi Ester.
Did you try the links above? I double checked them and they worked ok

Comment by Elizabeth A | January 5, 2009
I’ve been thinking a lot about healing lately in regards to some kind of undiagnosed physical problem I’ve had for years now. It’s not a crippling illness or anything like that, but it definitely interferes with my life. A couple of years ago, I prayed constantly for healing. These prayers began in the summer of 2006, when I was twenty, and continued until the end of the summer. At that point, I hadn’t been healed; if anything, I’d been feeling worse, and I was fed up. I felt like God wasn’t listening to me, and I gave up praying. Actually, I basically completely stopped praying and reading the Bible for a few months–my lack of healing wasn’t the only reason…plain laziness and distractions were other factors…but I definitely had a sense of disillusionment and disappointment with God.

Some months later, I started getting back on track spiritually, and around this time, I heard a minister on TV speak about the difference between faith and trust. Faith, he said, is believing in God’s abilities, and trust is believing in his attributes–such as goodness, faithfulness, compassion, and justice. I had faith that God COULD heal me, but when he didn’t heal me instantaneously, I doubted that he WOULD–in fact, I began to doubt that he cared about me. I didn’t trust God’s unchanging characteristics.

I also realized at this time that, during that summer when I’d prayed so enthusiastically for healing, I’d never really pursued a medical solution to the problems or told many people about my problems–my symptoms were too vague and I thought I wouldn’t be able to describe them. It eventually occurred to me that God might use a variety of different methods for healing and that he could use doctors to heal me or begin the process of healing. Instead of letting God heal me on his own timetable and in his own way, however, I was demanding that he heal me exactly as I specified: miraculously and instantly.

Well, accordingly, I went to see doctors about my problems, and they realized I had some odd symptoms, but tests didn’t show anything “wrong.” I still have the problems. They’re probably hormonal, and I suspect that they for that reason are tricky for doctors to diagnose. But about a year ago, I was complaining to God about how awful I felt and he said (or I believe he said: I’m not going to claim to be perfect at discerning God’s voice), “Why haven’t you prayed earnestly for healing? Don’t you know I can heal you?” In fact, I got the sense that God was telling me he wanted to heal me, but that I wasn’t asking persistently enough.

Now this was odd, because I’d asked pretty persistently during the summer of 2006. But it was also true that since then, I hadn’t really prayed for healing (beyond a mumbled prayer here and there that was more a complaint than a serious prayer). Yet even after I felt God urging me to pray for healing, I really didn’t do so. I think I felt persistent prayer wasn’t worth the effort because my experience that one summer had taught me prayer didn’t guarantee a response.

But recently, I got it into my head, and I’m not sure if it’s Biblical or not or if the idea is from God, that God was going to heal me soon because I was entering the seventh year of having these problems. I knew that in the Old Testament, the seventh year was the year when debts were cancelled and slaves were set free, and I’d been a slave to these problems for nearly seven years. So, recently, I’ve been praying regularly and persistently for healing and I keep coming across verses in the Bible about persistence–for example, Jesus’ analogy of the man asking for bread for his friend…”I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.” (Luke 11:8). There is also the story in Matthew 15 of the Canaanite woman who kept crying out to Jesus that her daughter was suffering from demon-possession; the disciples tried to send her away and Jesus himself told her he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but she said “even the dogs eat the crumbs from their master’s table.” Jesus commended her for her faith and healed her daughter. I think Jesus commended persistence in prayer and requests.

It seems strange that I would first pray persistently and not receive healing and then be told to continue praying. It also seems odd to me that I felt nudged to look for healing from doctors, and then felt told again specifically to look to God for healing. There’s definitely the possibility that I’m not receiving the message from God right…but I’m wondering if God is slowly teaching me something about praying for healing. First of all, God’s time is not our time. The Bible does say Jesus healed all who came to him, but Jesus didn’t heal everyone instantly. He let Lazarus die instead of healing him immediately…but Lazarus was still healed. This is why we have to trust him and be persistent in prayer. In the Old Testament, Elijah and Elisha both raised children from the dead but did not heal them when they were sick. God heals, but maybe not according to our time frame–maybe instantly, maybe after years. Secondly, in a similar vein, we can’t dictate to God how we want to be healed. We can’t say, “I want a miracle now,” and be guaranteed to get it. We have to be attuned to God’s will–to whether he intends to heal, and to how he intends to heal. Is he willing to heal? Does he want us to make changes in our life first? Then, something I’ve thought about while reading the comments here, there’s the Holy Spirit–are most Christians filled with the power of the Holy Spirit?

I don’t understand why some people are healed, why some people aren’t, or why we don’t see miraculous healings today like in the Bible, but I’m starting to think our problem has something to do with putting God in a box, treating him like a vending machine and demanding things of him instead of interacting with him. Maybe we need to spend more time asking God what his will is for us instead of assuming it’s his job to heal us the way we want, and maybe we need to trust him and be patient instead of expecting immediate results.

Comment by Rachel | January 6, 2009
Hi, I,ve just recently become aware of this site and have been looking around. This discussion has been around for a long time. To me, the truth is that God heals when ever and whom ever he chooses .Man is a responder , not the innitiator of God’s actions.Was there healing in the “atonement”? Atonement , the word, has been dragged into the new testament from Jewish religion. It carries with it the sense of “temporarily covering sin”, where as , I’ve been told that the Greek word is “propitiation”. The sense is of complete satisfaction.This is more in keeping with the truth of the finallity of the cross.The blood of Christ is of infinitely greater value than the blood of bulls and goats.For me, I am healed in Christ. My life is hidden with God in heaven . There, Jesus has prepared a house(body)for me.This body of flesh is going into the ground. If my days are extended upon this earth, it is because of His will;I do and have prayed for healing, for myself and others..then I leave it in his hands.
The death of Jesus did, as some have rightly pointed out here,completely remove the sins of man from before the face of God.The cross is the final word on our sins.”it is finished”.That sacrifice reconciled man to God. However, this is not salvation. We are saved by the life of Christ not just by his death.(romans 5:10)That is why Paul was so adament concerning the resurrection of Jesus.Jesus’healing of of sicness and desease,genetic damage or any other cause of physical impairment, was in response to whaT THE fATHER TOLD HIM TO DO. aLL PROPHESY is fulfilled in Him. These works were a sign to unbelievers of the truth of who He is,.. a sign of the time..
Love and Peace..Greg

Comment by Greg | January 11, 2009
For most of my life I have been ill with a chronic incurable illness that has progressively become more and more severe. I have been severely affected with it for over 5 years now. It involves a lot of pain and dysfunction of all the bodily systems that healthy people usually take for granted.
After several ‘prayers of faith’, with none of the desired results, many members of my church turned against me in judgement, including the leaders, and abandoned me to my presumed ’sin’. (Their logic being that lack of healing = lack of faith/unresolved sin.)
This church I now recognize is steeped in the Word of Faith/dominion/prosperity deceptions. So many times there I listened to sermons that distressed my spirit but I lacked the confidence and authority to have my questions taken seriously.
The last 5 years have been a kind of wilderness for me, so many Christians are adamant that you must belong to a church in order to be part of the body of Christ. But I have found a type of ‘church’ by one-to-one fellowship with a few Christian friends (not to mention my ever-faithful Mum!)
More importantly though, through closely studying the scriptures for myself and earnestly praying for wisdom and understanding, and seeking God for direct answers to my questions (and believe me there were many!) I have been incredibly blessed with answers to all my prayers and been granted some amazing insights and gifts, and also seen fantastic signs, wonders and miracles follow. Don’t get me wrong, some of God’s answers to me were ‘no’ or ‘not yet’ or ‘wait’, particularly in relation to pleas for healing and deliverance (and not just for myself!) Yet in His Grace, God allowed me to be able to be a blessing to other people in spite of my many physical limitations, to the point of using me to save the life of a raging alcoholic; which entailed many traumas and sacrifice, but has also been such an honour, and is such a testimony of the incredible grace, love and power of God, that He can achieve so much through such a flawed instrument as me, to help bring someone on the brink of death back to such a restoration that most people believed impossible.

My testimony is that instead of delivering me from my illness, God first has delivered me to it, to be tested by it, refined by it, and ultimately blessed by it. I would not wish the suffering it brings on anyone, including myself. But He is so amazing to have used my illness to facilitate healings and blessings to others and to myself. I have been healed from all the condemnation I had over it, not to mention many other spiritual bonds and deceptions, and eagerly (but not impatiently – well most of the time anyway!) await my complete deliverance from it!
I agree that sometimes for reasons known only to God Himself, the fullness of the healing provided by Jesus on the cross is not fully realized in our mortal bodies, but I also believe that some measure of healing is granted by God every time it is sincerely requested of Him, even if it is not quite of the type that we had in mind!

Comment by Hannah | January 31, 2009
—”If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
(1 John 1:10)—
I see no implication here that the instant forgiveness of sins means being instantly free of ill health.

—”In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honour, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
(1 Peter 1:6-7)—
—”[God] comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.”
(2 Corinthians 1:4)—
One thing I see in these verses and many others is that God can be glorified through perseverance through all kinds of adverse circumstances including illness. So why would He necessarily remove us from them the instant we ask it?

—”Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.”—
(3 John:2)
My soul has certainly prospered and enjoyed ‘health’ even though my body is diseased. I don’t believe the prosperity and health referred to here are limited to the physical realm, even though this prayer obviously encompasses it.

Comment by Hannah | January 31, 2009
Hannah,

Of course you are not going to find reference to healing looking at a verse not about healing such as 1 John 1.9. If you read Genesis 1, you won’t find reference to substitutionary redemption but that doesn’t mean it is not a Biblical truth!

If 3 John 2 contains Biblical health, then why not believe for and enjoy Biblical health?

Jesus commanded and taught us to pray for the will of God to be done on earth as it is in heaven. This means that there should be the same amount of disease on earth as there is in heaven.

Namely you can be disease free.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | January 31, 2009
I have just come out of a healing room ministry that I was involved in for about 2 1/2 years. I know all the prayer methods and arguments for healing, all the arguments for and why we should be healed and disease free; and why people do not experience or keep thier healing. There is much deception to these teachings! I have watched and heard people striving and searching for the right word, the right way to pray, for the right person to pray the right word for them at the right time. How exhausting it has been!!! It is horrendous to witness and evil to be a part of. Jesus never said we would be totally free of disease or illness in this world. We are in a fallen state of sin regardless of our redemption at the cross. Many become sick and die who love and serve the Lord. Many who serve in these healing rooms ARE sick and never see thier own healing. I hope and pray this madness will stop and that we would come to the realization whatever we go through in our lives, God expects us to walk with him through it, not beg a way out of it. May he deliver us from this evil.

I am thankful for this site. It has helped me work through my own doubts and concerns in so many areas and things I have been involved in. I will post more on that later on. Until then – THANKS A BUNCH!! xoxo

Blessings!!!

Comment by mkayla | January 31, 2009
mkayla

Care to share more? Did you see any good fruit?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 31, 2009
“Hannah,

Namely you can be disease free.

Blessings, Ben”

“What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?…If one of you says to him, Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?” (James 2:14-16)

I challange you to prove what you say, Ben. How about it guys, if we take up a collection for Hannah to recieve her promised (by Ben) healing? There at the Tree of Life London, for the whole world to see?

Hannah, I was so blessed by your moving testimony, I don’t mean to put you on the spot, and if you’re not up to it, I think we can find other volunteers. But it would be exciting if Ben can do what he promises, right?

He’s naming it isn’t he, shouldn’t she claim it? It is time to make some of these guys prove what they say. When YOU do it, Ben, immediately, the way Jesus healed ALL, then I will believe with you that healing is in the atonement.

Comment by Karen Butler | January 31, 2009
Since I was diagnosed with MS (Decembre 2008] I was confronted with a lot of people who thought they knew what was spiritual wrong with me and why I had that disease. They are influenced by very damaging teachings, like that of Henry Wright and others. What they are doing is condemning people who are suffering. There must be something wrong with me (low self-esteem, demons, curse, sin…) because I have a disease??? I think they are looking for the source of a disease so they can ‘fix’ it quickly so they don’t have to learn how to handle suffering.

Though I am not healthy, I have seen that my Father is taking care of me. I see His glory in small little miracles. If I would be running around to find my big miracle of healing (going to a healingconference or for example a ‘Benny Hinn’) I would miss the precious small things God wants to give me in this hard times. I can see that He is faithfull, that He carries me and comforts me. And He is still the same.

I know when Jesus will return, and establish His Kingdom, there will be no more disease and death. And for now I follow my Saviour and trust Him, no matter if He heals me or doesn’t heal me.

Comment by Ruitje | January 31, 2009
Tell me about Henry Wright’s teachings? Who is he?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 31, 2009
HI. Yes, there are some who were healed and some who were delivered, some right before my very eyes – physically, emotionally, and demonically. Those experiences were life changing for me, those on my team, and of course for those prayed for. It is exciting! I will not forget them. When we see God heal we want to see it again and again because it is so wonderful. And that is where the danger comes in, I think, in the expecation that God can and should do it again. God does heal his people, just not all people. We get involved in these minstries and expect a performance from God and eventually from each other.

I think people have a way of looking at someone else who has been healed, and they haven’t and wondering why God loves that person more than they, like sibling rivalry – Dad loves you more. But it truly is not that way. Healing is not the great equalizer, the cross is! For God so loved the world – John 3:16.

Comment by mkayla | January 31, 2009
I know something of Henry Wright from the healing rooms. He has this big white book that has all the diseases listed, their causes, etc. I haven’t looked at a copy for a long time. But the basic idea is to get to the “root” of the illness to pray for the healing.

Comment by mkayla | January 31, 2009
What kind of percentage about of people prayed for were real lasting healings – and what sort of things did you see healed?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 31, 2009
Henry Wright wrote ‘The Most Excellent Way’. His website is http://www.beinhealth.com (you can watch his teaching there partly). He teaches that almost 90% of the disease have a spirtual (demonic) or mental cause… And if you follow his teaching you’ve got the key to healing…

He is very known here in Holland and some people from Healingrooms are into this stuff. Someone told me when she heard that I have MS that she knew a man with MS who followed the teaching of Wright and first had to go through a long emotional healing proces, after that he would be healed of MS… Well, that didn’t happen. It is dangerous because it makes people go through a kind of inner emotional healing sessions and if you don’t get healed you feel guilty.

Here is an article of someone who has a comment on the book of Wright and shows that it is not biblical because Wright uses phrases out of context.
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1687

Comment by Ruitje | January 31, 2009
The root of all illness is The Fall. Since Genesis 3 we live in a broken world that is not fully restored yet. Though sometimes people get healed, and I believe God can heal, not every brokeness will be gone yet. When Jesus returns, than His Kingdom will be established and He will make all things new.

Comment by Ruitje | January 31, 2009
Ben, you wolf, quit circling the flock…

Comment by darren | January 31, 2009
HANNAH

As I read your testimony I thought for a moment that I must have written it myself, Such is the similarity to my own. The same verses, the same encouragement, the same triumph in dire circumstances.
You have blessed me so much as many memories have come flooding back. My dreadful illness lasted 8 years, and my experience throughout mirrors yours. I was finally miraculously led to ‘the one and only consultant in London’ who was able to identify and sort out my problem.
I hardly went out of the house for that 8 years, but held onto the many promises of God, eg.1 Peter 1:6/7 In this you greatly rejoice,though now for a little while…….and I truly emerged a different person in God. Yes I have always loved him but I received joy and strength like never before, as I sought him in prayer and bible study. Just like you, people were touched by God through MY suffering.
So Hannah, God never makes a mistake working out His purposes. Keep trusting Him, and let your beautiful spirit continue to shine. Don’t listen to anyone who seeks to undermine the truth that you know, with suggestions of lack of faith, or ‘name it and claim it’ rubbish. (I had plenty of that).God has His appointed time for everything. I promise you that from tonight, I will remember you in my prayers.

Comment by Sylvia | January 31, 2009
RUITJE

God Bless You also, for your faith and trust in God, in all your circumstances. I am very sorry to read about your newly diagnosed MS. You are so right in what you have said.
I know exactly how ‘well meaning’ people pressurise, cause exhaustion and feelings of guilt. I experienced all of that. But actually, I learned so much positive out of all the negative stuff.
Pray fervently for your healing, but continue to trust God to know what He is doing with your life. HE CAN BE TRUSTED WITH IT.

Comment by Sylvia | February 1, 2009
Ben,

“Jesus commanded and taught us to pray for the will of God to be done on earth as it is in heaven. This means that there should be the same amount of disease on earth as there is in heaven.”

It would mean by your logic then that there should be the same amount of hate on earth as there is in heaven. The same amount of injustice, the same amount of unforgiveness, the same amount of moral uncleanness, the same amount of poverty. Do we have that here on earth? Do we have it even in the church? No, we are taught patience as we wait for heaven to be restored to earth.

All creation groans, waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. We live in the earnest expectation of our adoption as sons,the redemption of our bodies. “For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he asready has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently”. (Romans 8:24-25)

Oh that glorious hope, of what will come when creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God!

We live in this tension of the now, and the not yet. Ben, I am so disappointed in the lack of love and compassion you show in your posts, and your lack of understanding of the whole counsel of God.

Comment by Karen Butler | February 1, 2009
Agreed Karen.

……………………………

I wrote an article on this, before this post appeared, with the same question, Is physical healing in the atonement?

I didn’t realize that people would not understand the question, thinking that i was doubting whether God heals and protects from disease today, which i wasn’t doubting.

The atonement dealt with our sin and brought us INTO Christ Jesus, into His righteousness as joint heirs.

Therefore, IN this Holy relationship we have been so graciously brought into, there is healing and their is deliverance and everything we need to serve Him faithfully.

With true faith there are no shadows or uncertainties, no double mindedness.

The reason we can have unshakeable faith that we have been , past tense, justified from all our sins, from all the righteous demands of the law, is that the matter was finished, accomplished on the Cross of Calvary.

Such a person, thru faith, HAS the goods, they ARE justified, and they know it, by the Spirit.

We can’t approach the Atonement in the same way for physical healing, as we do for salvation.

If we could, then all we would have to do is believe, “By His stripes I was healed of all my physical diseases”, and we would never ever get any form of illness, and our bodies would not die.

But then people carp, “Ah, you didn’t have real faith!”, if you ever get ill.

My observation, also, is that perhaps most of the people who believe that physical healing is in the atonement do get sick, all certainly die, and sadly, when they are sick they deny the reality of it, which is metaphysics, unreality, as per Christian Science and Hagin et al.

Faith is not a mystery. If it goes beyond child like faith, it’s not faith.

Comment by ianvincent | February 1, 2009
Also, “Christ died and was raised for our justification”.

You can’t be half justified, you either are or you aren’t.

This is becos Christ fully accomplished this for us by His atonement.

Then, with sickness?? IF healing is part of the Atonement and that is your faith, and then you ever get sick, then you never had faith.

You can’t lapse in and out of justification like that.

Hebrews tells us that if we become unbelieving we are OUT eternally and there’s no way back.

We can’t approach healing that way.

IF Jesus is LORD of our lives and our only desire is to be faithful to Him, serving Him, THEN we have what we need to do that, and health and healing is abundantly supplied.

Comment by ianvincent | February 1, 2009
Karen,

You are correct. Logically there should be zero hatred on earth and zero sickness.

However, you know that people still hate and still get sick.

However, if you have hate in your heart do you go: ah well, people get hate, this is a fallen world, and these things happen, I will just lie down and let hate win. Or would you go into the Word of God, find out Scriptures that deal with hate, learn them, meditate on them and change your mental attitude with the Word of God? Because if you take the former attitude you will be filled with hate even though the will of God is that you love your brother.

It is the same with sickness. If you have sickness in your body do you go: ah well, people get sick, this is a fallen world, I will just lie down and let sickness win. Or would you go into the Word of God, find out Scriptures that deal with sickness, learn them, meditate on them and change your physical body with the Word of God? Because if you take the former attitude you will be filled with sickness even though the will of God is your complete healing.

If you get sick, real faith is not denying the sickness. Real faith is deciding to live by the Scriptures of healing and fighting the good fight of faith and watching that sickness leave. It is so much fun to live healthy in the world, it is so much fun to lay hands on the sick and see them recover. I live by faith (in the Word) and not by sight (what I see).

The problem is that we have made sickness our friend in the church, we have told lies about it: we have said it teaches us humility, that it is a blessing in disguise, that Christ’s redemption is not really redemption from sickness, that it is something you cannot escape. But if you study the Word, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | February 1, 2009
Sylvia and Hannah, your comments are really encouraging and I pray that God will bless you and give you peace and joy.
That we all may know Him, not for miracles and things He does for us, but know Him for who He is: the Great I AM, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, the Wonderful Counselor.

Comment by Ruitje | February 1, 2009
@treeoflifelondon wrote If you get sick, real faith is not denying the sickness. Real faith is deciding to live by the Scriptures of healing and fighting the good fight of faith and watching that sickness leave. It is so much fun to live healthy in the world, it is so much fun to lay hands on the sick and see them recover. I live by faith (in the Word) and not by sight (what I see).

The good fight of faith is not faith in healing, but faith in Jesus Christ the Saviour who payed the price for my sin. What you write is like your are allready perfect living now?

I live in the faith that one day my Lord returns. I know He can heal me now, but will He? Maybe He is teaching me to have faith in Him for who He is in this days of sickness. Because my focus is not on getting better as soon as possible, but my focus is on Jesus my Saviour who gives eternal life.

And finally: it’s also much fun to live in this world in a body that doesn’t function the way it should, but with a mind and heart that follows Christ and living in His grace day by day. His grace is suficient.

Comment by Ruitje | February 2, 2009
Treeoflifelondon

I include you in my list of ’smug bugs’. I trust you never get diagnosed with anything incurable. Only then would you see reality as it truly is ‘in Christ. When you had to reach out with immeasurable faith, pray fervently, declare scripture with confidence and belief, listen to ‘words/prophecy’ proclaiming you are healed and receive ‘deliverance ministry’?? and NOT BE HEALED, then you may understand. Maybe then you would learn that healing isn’t ALWAYS GUARANTEED but ‘refuge and strength and a very present help in trouble’ IS. That ‘Peace that passeth understanding’ and ‘Joy unspeakable and full of Glory’ IS. That “though he slay me, yet I will praise Him” becomes living reality, not just learnt words anymore.
I have witnessed too many testimonies, including MY OWN, to have ant doubt about my findings. These testimonies include enthusiastic people like yourself, who had all the glib answers UNTIL THEY FELL PREY THEMSELVES. Then came repentance, understanding and sensitivity.
Please reflect on these words, they are TRUTH.

Comment by Sylvia | February 2, 2009
Sylvia,

12 years ago I was diagnosed with something incurable. The doctors told me I would spend 6 months out of every year in my life in hospital. I had an angel visit me in hospital to tell me, among other things, that the UK was about to see a visitation of the power of the Holy Spirit more awesome than it could ask for or imagine. I begged the angel to heal me and he simply pointed to the Bible at my bedside and was gone.

I read the Bible and found that Jesus redeemed me from sickness, that sickness is a curse and healing is a blessing. That the Lord’s name is the Lord my Healer, not the Lord my ignorer. That Jesus bore my sicknesses and carried my diseases. That we can be healed through faith. That He sent His Word and healed me. That He heals all my diseases. That He is a good God. That healing is guaranteed because it is a promise from the Word of God and God can be trusted.

Out of six people in my immediate family, four of us had an incurable sickness. Not one of us is sick today. So although you might think that a negative circumstance might get me to stop believing the plain teaching of the Bible that the Lord Jesus went around doing good, healing all those oppressed of the devil, it didn’t.

You have come too late to get me to ignore the Word of God because of your experience. You tell me to reflect on your Words because they are TRUTH, but they are not. God’s Word is TRUTH, not Sylvia’s word. You might have witnessed some testimonies of Christians who are sick – I know Christians who have committed gross sins. Does their experience negate the redemptive power of Christ? No, they just for whatever reason did not connect with the power.

If my TV stops showing a picture, I don’t contact the BBC and ask them why they are not transmitting to me and not letting me see the TV. I don’t submit to the will of the BBC. I know that they have the transmitter always on. I adjust my set.

If I start to suffer a sickness, I don’t ask God why He made me sick. I don’t build a theology around the fact that I am sick. I don’t submit to the sickness. I adjust my life. I start to double up on the Word. Whatever my body tells me it can’t do, I force it to do. I speak in tongues, I listen to my healing scriptures on tape. I change me. I don’t build a theology on the lack of results and make my experience the norm. I change my experience to match the Word.

In Matthew 17 when a boy was not healed, the disciples asked Jesus why they could not cast the demon out and heal the boy. Jesus answered: because of your unbelief. Not because it wasn’t His will, not because it wasn’t His time, not because he only wanted the boy to be full of joy and still sick. Because the disciples failed to believe the Word.

Just before Christmas we saw a baby deaf in one ear completely healed. My best friend was told he would never walk again – he is now a security guard, a job which involves a lot of walking. I was there when he was healed, and dancing on his bed.

My wife was told she could never have children, we have 4. She was told she would have a miscarriage – she hasn’t. She was told she might die in child birth. She didn’t. She had a congenital heart defect which is now completely gone.

I have never spent a night in hospital again, despite what the doctors promised. My two eldest sons have been completely healed, and my eldest son had one kidney and now has two. And it wasn’t an implant!

The Bible says very clearly that the Lord is my Healer. If you look at our churches’ website, you will be able to read some articles and learn what the Bible teaches, not what you experience.

You must not make an idol out of your experience. If your experience does not match the Word of God, stay with the Word and change what you experience. Don’t stay with your experiences and change the Word.

I don’t want to be your smug bug, but I certainly don’t want you to live sick when Jesus Christ according to the Scripture carried your sicknesses and bore your diseases, and by His stripes you are healed. I love you and I don’t want you to reach glory and find out you could have spent this time well and as a healthy person doing more for the kingdom. I could not pastor if I was in bed half the year. I could not be doing the job I am doing, making the money I am making, and giving the money I am giving to the kingdom if I was in hospital half the year. I have joy unspeakable and joy speakable. It’s wonderful being healthy. I am not boasting because it is not by works, it is by grace and healing is available to you as well. It has been for 2000 years.

Blessings and love,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | February 3, 2009
Ben

I have asked you for medical verification before for your claims, why did you not supply it again? I realise not every healing has such documentation, but surely for some of these claims you have lots to support it?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | February 3, 2009
“Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you”

What things? Everything you really need to KEEP seeking first the Kingdom and His Righteousness, to live for Him and do His will.

Healing and health are obviously a NEED which, when we really need it, He supplies.

We also need money. So, would i say that Jesus died for my empty wallet, or bank account? That finances are IN the atonement? What about food, is that IN the atonement?

Comment by ianvincent | February 3, 2009
OK Ben

I did not know of your experiences, and if true I have three words to say “PRAISE THE LORD”. I have NEVER said God does not heal, on the contrary, I have my healing to testify to, despite all the odds. If only half of your claims are true, I can understand your enthusiam to a point. BUT as you state, The Bible is true, and there are many, many incidents that God ALLOWS suffering for HIS purposes. He commends perseverance in the midst of trials.
I WILL NOT accept that wonderful Godly people I know and have known, are sick or have died, needlessly. Their testimony of something (or rather SOMEONE) bigger than health, or even life itself, is rich and inspiring.
Perhaps my ’smug bug’ was a bit uncalled for, so sorry for that, but this false ‘name it and claim it’ nonsense REALLY WINDS ME UP especially in the face of Hannah and Ruitje’s obvious trust and rest in their beloved Lord Jesus.
BTW I notice Miriam’s question above which seems very reasonable, so how about complying with her request.

Comment by Sylvia | February 3, 2009
@ Ian,

Finances are in our redemption as can be clearly seen from 2 Cor. 8-9.

@ Miriam,

Even if I showed you documented proof of a miracle it would only lead to people believing that God healed that one person. It would not lead to people believing God for their own healing. Faith for healing comes from the written Word of God which is very clear that Jesus bore our sicknesses. If people reject the testimony of the Word of God, it doesn’t matter if someone comes back to life and tells them it is true, they still will not receive it.

@ Sylvia,

Thank you for praising God with me and rejoicing with me for my healing, my wife’s healing and my son’s healings. God is a good God!

I am sorry you refuse to accept the teaching of the Word of God because of the testimony of your friend’s experiences. Your friend’s experiences should not lead you to reject the Word of God.

You should choose to believe the Word of God and live by faith and not by sight.

You say that the Bible teaches that God allows suffering for His purpose. You need to realize that there is no incident in the New Testament where God allows, permits or places sickness on a Christian. A Christian has been redeemed from the curse of the law (Gal. 3.13) and is therefore redeemed from all sickness (Deut. 28). A Christian is healed by the stripes of Jesus (1 Peter 2.24). Jesus went around doing good healing all those oppressed by the devil (Acts 10.38). When the woman with the issue of blood touched Jesus she was healed automatically and freely by His grace and goodness. He didn’t even know she had been healed, but her faith in His healing power made her whole. It is the same today, whenever someone reaches out to God with simple faith in His goodness and His power to heal, His healing power makes them whole.

We have to study the Word first, and let the Word influence and alter our experiences. We cannot look to people’s experiences and then use that to determine our theology. That way leads to error.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | February 3, 2009
Ben

Your continued reluctance to provide documentation of your claims speaks volumes – especially in the light of your previous posts on this site about covering up sin and deception – and the other posts, public and private, that raised a serious red flag about you, your ministry and integrity.

Most people here do not reject the Bible’s testimony. But we do question some of your testimony.

Let us glorify God together – if you have been healed and healing surrounds you as much as you claim, then let’s see the actual evidence for this. And as well believers being encouraged, many unbelievers will believe – even if not the majority, many will. Even if one, is that not worth it. If you have real signs and wonders let them be a sign and wonder to others – otherwise, you show yourself a deceitful quack full of nothing but hot air.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | February 4, 2009
Send me your postal address Miriam and I will send you a photocopy of the scan of my son with the one kidney and a scan with two.

Though from what I see I don’t think you will accept the evidence. If you cannot accept the clear teachings of the Word, no amount of evidence will convince you that Jesus redeemed us from all sickness and disease.

Comment by treeoflifelondon | February 4, 2009
As an aside, I know for a fact if I preach for one hour on the written Word of God that Jesus redeemed us from sickness and by His stripes we are healed, I will see the sick healed. Faith in the Word brings healing.

If I get up and talk about testimonies for one hour, people will have enjoyed the service but go away sick. Carnal people get excited about testimonies, spiritual people get excited about the Word. Gehazi had to see the angels, Elisha was happy without seeing them.

I don’t have gifts of healing, so I have to preach the Word which always brings faith.

Some people made the Word of no effect because of their traditions, traditions such as sometimes God heals, sometimes He doesn’t, traditions like sickness is a judgment of God, that healing has passed away, that we will not benefit from healing until we die, that we should build character through sickness, that sickness is a blessing in disguise.

Thankfully a generation are rising up, tearing down the strongholds of traditions in between Christians’ ears, preaching the uncompromised gospel, the truth that Paul preached in Acts 14 that led to a cripple having the faith to be getting up and walking.

Praise His name forevermore,

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | February 4, 2009
Hi Ben,

I admire your position as to believing the promises of God.

Rom 14:22 Do you have faith? By yourself, have it before God. Blessed is he that does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Re:

2Cor 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet on account of you He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

If the riches here means rich with money, then ALL of the Apostles and early church MISSED out on their redemption.

Yes?

Comment by ianvincent | February 5, 2009
Ben

Why don’t you post all you have online for all to see, then nobody can accuse me of altering what you have sent.

I mean why don’t you post this stuff online anyway to glorify God anyway without being asked – if what you say is true, that is? Let it be a sign and wonder to all – whether they believe or not. Why keep silent, why not tell the world?

I really do not understand Ben why you are so reluctant to give proof when asked.

By the way as to the group of healed lepers you talked about showing themselves to the priests in the gospels, that it because the priests checked and cleared those with skin diseases to go back into the ‘camp’ – it was fulfilling the law so the lepers could go back into society. It wasn’t just for the sake of testimony or putting it in the priest’s faces.

>> If you cannot accept the clear teachings of the Word,

Someone testing your claims does not mean they deny the word – or that they deny healing. I believe the Bible, I also belive in miracles today. I have been miraculously healed myself. But there’s a lot of liars out there and I believe they exist too – even you agreed and said you would cover up for them, so this does not bode that good for you at the moment….

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | February 5, 2009
Miriam,

My ministry is to seek and save the lost, to preach good news to the poor. It is not to prove healing to people who should know better! I have offered to post you evidence, but you reject my offer!

In terms of putting proof of healing on the internet, as I have said before it actually doesn’t convince people. I have sat down with non-Christians, and unbelieving Christians, with physical evidence including the photos I am offering to show you, and it doesn’t convince anyone.

I have a friend in the States who was healed – dramatically I mean she was dying and obviously ill and completely instantly healed, and lost friends from Christians who didn’t believe in healing because they could not bear to be around her seeing her in perfect health because it messed up their theology. Like I have said before, if they will not accept the Word, they will not believe even if someone comes back from the dead!

I know an evangelist who I used to work for prayed for a man with one lung and a second lung grew back. I have seen the x-rays before and after. They don’t convince anyone, the evangelist went on tour showing the pictures and had no fruit at all, so he went back to preaching the Word of God.

Blessings,
Ben

Comment by treeoflifelondon | February 5, 2009
BEN

YOU SAID: @ Sylvia, “Thank you for praising God with me and rejoicing with me for my healing, my wife’s healing and my sons healings. God is so good”.

If you check back, I actually said “IF TRUE, PRAISE THE LORD” and I mean that because – I PRAISE THE LORD for ALL circumstances, – I PRAISE THE LORD for WHO HE IS, – I PRAISE THE LORD for HIS SOVEREIGNTY IN SICKNESS AND HEALTH.

YOU SAID: “I am sorry you refuse to accept the teaching of the word of God because of the testimony of your friends experiences, they should not lead you to reject the word of God”. That accusation is inaccuarate, unjustified, and CRUEL and causes you to lose all credibility. You also subtly suggest that I accuse God of ‘placing sickness on a person’. OF COURSE HE DOES NOT, there is a major difference in GIVING and ALLOWING.

Sigh! Miriam is far more patient with you than I Ben. If anything can justifiably be levelled at me it is ‘impatience’ regarding TWISTING OF GODS WORD BY CLAIMING HEALING, PROSPERITY, (ANYTHING & EVERYTHING) ‘ON DEMAND’.

Lastly, you stated “As an aside, if I get up and speak about testimonies for one hour, people will have enjoyed the service but go away sick”. Your interpretation of this statement is warped. What actually happens is that these sick people love to be encouraged by the testimonies of others whom God has healed IN HIS TIMING and rejoice with them. They reach out IN THEIR OWN GREAT FAITH, for their miracle, but have learnt to HANDLE THE REAL AND TRUST GOD WITH THEIR LIVES – WHATEVER THE COST. Yes Ben, THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT GIVE ME AN IMPULSE TO ‘SHOUT FROM THE ROOFTOPS’, ‘PRAISE THE LORD’.

You clearly are steeped in the ‘name it and claim it’ heresy and unbending. You pick out all the scritures that suit you (and there are many) but ignore the ones that offend you (and there are many). You preach a one-sided Gospel Ben.

Comment by Sylvia | February 5, 2009
Ben,

Your theology has been corrupted by false teachers.
Read Ezekiel 14. The LORD knew what was in your heart, that you were not seeking Him, for you would not forsake your idolatry. He has delivered you to false prophets, yet you remain morally responsible for your decision to follow them–and you will be judged with them.

Word faith is heresy.

On your site, you praise the works of Hagin and Wommack. They are wolves, and so are you.

“I don’t have gifts of healing…”

But you wrote a book that promises: “You can heal the sick, set the captives free and bring the love of God wherever you go. This book will show you how!”

Man heals?! Man sets the captives free?!

And truly, you have no understanding of the Christian “annointing.”

Andrew Wommack says the biggest false teaching in the body of Christ is ‘The sovereignty of God’.
Andrew believes if you are sick it is all your fault and you are not to pray to God to heal you, but speak to the sickness and cast it away, and if you dont get healed it is because of your unbelief which does not please the Lord.
Andrew is a word faith teacher and a huge fan of Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and Charles Capps etc, 90% of his teachings come directly from these men. Andrew believes that in order to get more money you should actually speak to your wallet and command more money to come your way – this is where the nickname ‘name it claim it’ – ‘blab it grab it’ comes from. Andrew teaches decisional regeneration.

And Hagin the heretic claimed healing for that which eventually killed him.

Comment by darren | February 5, 2009
I bet allots of the christians are sickly because their reasoning minds will not allow them to have the faith for healing,everything is a argument with a reason why this or that can not be. Are you God? Who set you over my faith or what transpires between me and him? some here have went over the edge in their minds and are headed for having only a form of godliness. I feel so sorry for people who think they know more than God and those who have childlike faith in him.
Some of you need to become like a little child again and get the garbage out of your brains.

Comment by Tamera | February 5, 2009
Miriam do you have documented fulfillment of anything you have prophesied? Do you know the new testament speaks very little about prophesy and speaks more about healing and demons??? This has been the type of reasoning i have seen on this site.

Comment by Tamera | February 5, 2009
Tamera

This website has documented the dates I have prophesied things [obviously proveable as to when I said it with the datestamp and search engines etc], and many of these things spoken of are being fulfilled before our eyes now. Some have already been fulfilled. Other things by their nature are not yet fulfilled but will be in the fullness of time.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | February 6, 2009
Ben

I have offered to post you evidence, but you reject my offer!

I have not rejected your offer, Ben. I suggested a more practical way for you to tell us/the world, that is quickly in full view of everyone and kills more than one bird with one stone. Then also you or nobody else can later claim I have witheld or tampered with the evidence, not posted it all online, or it was lost in the post – or any other potential excuses. Let it all out be open and in the light now, Ben.

Let us also remember you have openly endorsed lying and covering over things – so we cannot and should not just take your word for it! You have hardly given us reason to trust you! And do you really want me to post your various offline taunts, mockery, jeering and insults and namecalling you made to me that have not gone live that further discredit you, to your shame?

You say the evidence does not convine people but that is bunkum. As some will believe – and even if that be only one out of all the thousands that visit here – is that not one soul worth a little inconvenience to you? And furthermore, if true it is your testimony – who are you to decide to keep quiet about it?! How is what you are saying about not sharing it even biblical? Shall we also not evangelise and preach the gospel by your same warped reasoning? Shall we not bear witness, shall we not bear testimony about anything as others will not believe us? Baloney, Ben.

Ben, you are up to something – come clean and confess, you are not being honest with us – why? Why your reluctance to shout about something that any true Christian would want to shout from the rooftops? What have you got to hide? Why would you posibly not provide proof that can save souls from hellfire and encourage others in the church – unless you do not have the actual proof, that is? Unless you have misled us? What is going on?

I notice that like all manipulators and deceivers you are turning the tables on others. We ask for evidence of your claims yet you turn it on us and “demonise” us for daring to ask for proof which should be readily available if what has happened has happened – and will glorify God in the process.

You have already told me all that I really need to know about you, Ben – but for the sake of clarity – come on, out with it or be silent in Jesus’ name!

I have mentioned multiple times on this site – and also elsewhere – about the fact I was miraculously healed. I readily testify to it. I also told you before that not all healing has medical documentation with it by its very nature, mine has none because it was healing of injuries after a car accident with no doctors involved. That is one of the reasons why when there is actual documentation for a healing and miracle, and lots of it as there should be in your case, it is even more reason to show it the world. So come on, Ben! Out with it.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | February 6, 2009
What does Ben have to say concerning 1Tim5:23 Timothy’s recurring illnesses and 2Tim4:20 Trophimus?

Comment by Richard | February 7, 2009
Ben

You are now banned from this site. You are a total disgrace!

You behaved very badly last year, not just in your misleading statements and your heresies and support for evil, but in your subsequent insults, taunts and mocking. Which clearly showed your true character.

I very graciously gave you an extra chance this time – even though you had not apologised or repented for your previous behaviour – yet you continue.

Your refusal to provide the evidence of your alleged healings is also self explanatory. I have given you every chance to prove them.

You are a wolf Ben.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | February 10, 2009
Sylvia, Karen & Ruitje; thank you for your kind comments.
It is so good to hear from true sisters in the faith! My heart goes out to you in each of your struggles but I see that God has and will continue to richly bless each one of you!

‘My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord – that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.
(James 5:10-11)

In my opinion, we all have some sort of ’sickness’ to a certain extent, whether it be physical, emotional or spiritual. If you view sin as a genetic inheritance from Adam and Eve then we are all ’sick’ with it from birth to death. So not a single one of us can truthfully say we are 100% healed (yet!) We are certainly in no position to judge those of us who have more visible sicknesses, as ‘All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.’ (Romans 3:23)

I believe personally that God has got me on a journey of healing and deliverance, I see fresh advances in this every day! I also believe that He never denies a sincere request for healing…He just often has a different (and better!) idea than we do of what part of us needs healing the most.

I haven’t stopped asking Him for the physical healing that I long for, but I think it’s important to spend more time asking Him to show me His will and seeking His guidance in my life not to mention studying His Word.

My physical healing will manifest, at the best time as He sees it, not as I see it! Even though my illness limits the number of ‘good works’ I can do, it doesn’t limit my capacity for a loving relationship with my Saviour. And I know that this is more precious to Him than say the number of church services I serve at for example!

‘For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.’
(Ephesians 2:8-9)

Comment by Hannah | February 18, 2009
Hi from Sussex, I just found this site and read at least half of the comments, as always when discussing healing most observations are incorrect in some aspect or other.
If we really want to know about healing we should study the writings of F. F Bosworth, we should discover the ministry of John G. Lake ( during whose time hospital wards were emptied ). Lake would send healing technicians out to sick folk and they didn’t come back until the sufferer was delivered !
Currently Curry Blake who can be discovered at jglm.org talks of seeing 94-97% of people healed and has known 100% during his time in ministry. He has some very comprehensive material available should you want to minister with greater confidence and it is interesting to hear what he has to say about ministries like that of Henry Wright.
That success rate got my attention !!!!!!!!!!
Malachi 3:6

Comment by Graham Chown | February 27, 2009
There was no curse, sickness, disease, poverty or lack in the Garden of Eden and man was whole body soul and spirit. But sin and Satan changed all this? However Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and to heal the whole man body soul and spirit.

Many scriptures refer to Jesus as being our substitute. He carried the curse on the cross so we wouldn’t have to. And the curse of the law had three basic divisions.

The complete curse:
1) Spiritual death
2) Sickness and disease
3) Poverty

The redemption:
1) Eternal life (Hebrews 9:12)
2) Health and healing (1 Peter 2:24)
3) Prosperity (2 Corinthians 8:9)

Unfortunately, many people stop after one third of the curse has been broken in their life. Jesus paid the price to break the entire curse of the law, which included poverty, sickness, and spiritual death.

We are good at telling people they need to become spiritually alive. We even tell them that when Jesus died on the cross, He became a curse (Galatians 3:13) and because He was cursed, we’re not cursed anymore. Why stop there? What about the curse of sickness and disease? What about the curse of poverty? He became our substitute in those things, too. The scripture clearly tells us so. He paid the price we couldn’t pay so that we can be rich in every area of our lives because all that belong to Jesus now belongs to us .

JN 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Jesus took the curse of poverty for us and He paid the price. 2 Corinthians 8:9 says, “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.”

This scripture means to me that Jesus was the substitute for our poverty. He was the propitiation for that part of the curse of the law for us.

Comment by WALTER | March 3, 2009
Also, I have a question. Where are you on the idea that man is spirit soul (mind) and body? Because I think a large percentage of the real theological question here rests on that truth. People keep saying “if healing is part of redemption, then you’re saying those who are sick aren’t redeemed!” and things like that, but if we’re spirit soul and body, then the spiritual state of redemption of sins through the sacrifice of Christ exists separately from what some might consider an outward manifestation of redemption, i.e. healing. … Wouldn’t that explain how true Christians can be sick? Yet for those who seek to bring the kingdom of god to earth, as we are called to do, wouldn’t an outflowing of the life and vitality from the spirit within, coupled with the discernment to see the lack of life to which truth and life should be spoken, result in things like healing?

Speaking is creative, we can release things from the spiritual realm into the physical world (those are very superspiritual terms, but it’s a very natural idea). It’s an immaturity and misunderstanding of truths like these that lead to the kinds of negligence in teaching mentioned above, like speaking to your wallet to get money to come into it. That’s ridiculous, of course: there’s nothing of spiritual substance in money or the wallet. It’s strongholds of thinking in the mind, and spiritual entities such as demons that we are to address and exercise our God-given dominion over, and until the admittedly eager practicioners’ of what we now know as “faith healing” let their knowledge and discernment catch up the level of their zeal, people will continue to be stirred up into false hope on misunderstood promises, and crushed when the very real power of the gospel is missed out on.

I personally believe that all can be healed. I say this with full recognition of the truth that sometimes sickness is the purpose of God being carried out by allowing disease for the forging of character and the power of testimony. I do think some sickness comes from heart attitudes like pride, yet I believe much sickness simply comes from living in a fallen world. However I cannot reconcile the message of the kingdom of God coming to Earth now, the message that Christ is here and reigns victorious and that we are agents of this gospel of redemption and life and vitality, with the idea that sickness is somehow an exception, only to be conquered upon the final redemption for which we “wait patiently.” There are people with emotional problems who are Christians, and praying for them doesn’t always immediately eradicate the issues. That is not to say I haven’t seen the power of God come upon someone while being prayed for and setting them free from their bondage to false ideologies which perpetuated the emotional traumas in the first place- merely that it was a process of learning to let go of those untruths and yield to God’s truth, which sets you free. Sometimes the power comes so strongly that the light floods the darkness and deliverance is attained, yet in other instances it takes time to learn to open up to the Spirit and allow Him to move.
Christ healed all because all who came to him CAME TO HIM, which shows they had an expectancy and an openness, and also because he was CHRIST, God Incarnate- God’s manifest presence was always within him, so power was guaranteed. I believe we can attain such consistency of power through the cultivation His presence, but it requires steadfast yielding to the crucifixion of self so that Christ might abide within us. Yet victory has been assured by Christ, and I’m committed to press on in search of the manifestation of that victory, to bring the kingdom of God to Earth, and to see healing here and now.

Comment by Danny | March 4, 2009
@Walter: When Jesus returns, than all things will be new. Read Revelation about the time that will come.
Paul speaks in 2 Kor. 4 and 6 about being poor, strugle, suffering. And this world, what we see is temporary. He focuses on eternity, when Jesus will return and reign. Than all things will finally be new.

Read Revelation.

Comment by Ruitje | March 4, 2009
First, I would like to say this, I believe in supernatural healings and have seen “instant healings” personally after praying for others, having the gifts of healings myself. However, if physical healing was included in the atonement, why aren’t our bodies all healed INSTANTLY when we are born again? Our spirits were made righteous INSTANTLY when we were born again because Christ atoned for our SINS, but why weren’t our bodies healed INSTANTLY along with the atoning born again experience? Because, all physical bodies will not experience total, physical healing and made immortal until the resurrection. God heals those who He chooses for REASONS known only to Him while on the earth, but as far as being included in the atonement, it was included ONLY in sense that we shall ALL be healed physically…in the resurrection. Last time I checked..every Christian I’ve ever known has died physically…

Comment by Jeff | March 7, 2009

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End Times Visions and Christian prophecy for the church and for the nations from a servant of God called to speak God’s word, bringing prophecies and prophetic words of revelation, warning of End Times apostasy and lukewarm Christianity, and trying to bring people’s hearts, minds and souls back to the Lord their God. For statement of faith see here.

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End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

Christian prophecy for the church and for the nations from a servant of God called to speak God's word