Is Perry Stone Biblically Sound? « End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

Is Perry Stone Biblically Sound?

I have been asked several times about Perry Stone, whether he is biblically ’sound’ or not. So I have decided to start a new thread on this specific subject.

I have to say I’ve not researched Perry Stone much – but I’m sure others here have so please do comment below.

I do remember I read one of Perry Stone’s prophecies before on the recommendation of another and was not only troubled by it, but concluded for the sake of my own personal understanding that he and the spirit he prophesied by was ’off’. And this was without my knowing about all the merchandising he does, or the ‘judaising’, or some of the people he hangs with such as the terrible pulpit pimps Morris Cerullo and Paula White, or his appearing on the even more terrible TBN.

Perry Stone’s teachings are mingled with some truth but there is a lot of dangerous heresy packaged in there such as the erroneous pre tribulation rapture doctrine.

I also since discovered that Perry Stone sells a meal package on his Voice of Evangelism ministry website, calls it the Lord’s Supper, and claims if you buy it from him and take it daily you’ll be healed of any sickness or disease. This is bad enough in and for itself, but there also seems to be some ideas more akin to Roman Catholicism within his teaching on ‘communion’ [eg of the Roman Catholic eucharist, and the pagan idea of the actual "real presense" of Christ being manifest in the bread and wine and a mystical connotation that was never ever meant by what is meant to be a symbolic meal. Breaking bread is also about communion with others, and is not to be done alone as then some of the main symbolism is lost!]

Look below how this idea is then ruthlessly pimped by Paula White and Perry Stone. This is despicable.

Paula White: “I believe that as you take communion that there is protection through that blood. Then the bible declares that the blood not only saves us, not only protects us, but it also provides for us. You said there’s a couple that we know very dear that had a financial need.”

Perry Stone: “Yes!”

Paula White: “And their father, a great pastor, pastor Scott told them God gave him a revelation.”

Perry Stone: “Yes.”

Paula White: “To take communion once a day.”

Perry Stone: “He said, ‘Take it everyday and as you’re praying thank God for blessing you financially. Thank Him that that’s part of the provision. They needed $50,000 and they got an amazing, remarkable $50,000 miracle, this couple did!”

Paula White… “Call that toll free number! We want you to get the ‘Meal That Heals!’”

(Paula White and Perry Stone, “Paula White Show,” October 9, 2004) source

December 31, 2008 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | End Times Eschatology, False Prophets and Teachers, John Hagee, Judaism, Messianic, Mike Murdock, Morris Cerullo, Paula White, Perry Stone, Prophecy, Prosperity Gospel/Seed Faith, Pulpit Pimps, Rapture, Word of Faith, Zionism | christianity, church, manna fest, Pam Stone, prophetic, religion, theology | 191 Comments

191 Comments »

I have picked up a few comments already left about Perry on this site.

Emi asked:

“I have been seeing Perry Stone a lot on tv lately. I don’t know a lot about him, but what I’ve seen doesn’t impress me. He seems to make some pretty wild and presumptuous claims about biblical prophecy (he is a dispensational premillenialist, I think, but goes way way beyond all that), he’s a staunch Judiazer, and he sells a plethora of products and CDs/DVDs/etc on his website(and quite a bit of it) and a huge list of books he’s written (one in particular disturbed me, “The Meal That Heals” stating that the Lord’s Supper was implemented to heal people…not as, “do this in rememberance of Me…”and he sales a “The Meal that Heals Communion Kit”).

He sells more Stars of David than crosses on his site store. He talks about the “mysteries” of this and the “secrets” of that, which he says are to be found all over the Bible. He seems to be a Word/Faith subscriber. He takes part in prophecy conferences with some mighty suspect people, too (look at the speaker list of Morris Cerullo’s 2009 Conference – Musey, Monroe and Murdock (oh my!). Paula White, John Hagee and the list continues.

From what I’m seeing this Perry Stone doesn’t seem to do anything but make a name for himself by making outrageous claims about mysteries and secrets that no one but he has been shown. However, I do not think I’ve the full story. Tell me, what is your take on Perry Stone?”

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Double Grace responded -

Emi: I’ve also had questions about Perry Stone since getting out of Charismania this summer. I have always found his teaching on OT and the Temple insightful and interesting. I haven’t heard everything he teaches however.

What is the difference between acknowledging the Jewish roots of the Bible, first Christians and “Judiazers”? Are they the same and is it wrong to support Israel?

Is Perry Stone a false teacher or just a little off in some areas? I’d like some opinions on this also. Thanks.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Eve said previously on another comment

The church we run is Messianic and we meet on Saturdays. I must confess that i feel the Hebrew Roots movement in general, and these folk in particular are into some weird stuff. There is so much in the Bible as it stands. I just do not understand why they have to pay so much attention to men who have no relationship with God.

Of course, we need to understand the mind and culture of the people who wrote Scripture, but we do not have to espouse the superstition of those the lived amongst.
God nowhere tells us there are secret codes or mystic interpretations of His word. Even the Rabbis tell their people not to study Kabbalah or it will send them mad. We wonder if this is behind much of the madness in the church today.

There seems to be a feeling that the Bible is not enough. It takes many forms and is very dangerous. Christians seem to hang on every word of such people and do not weigh what is said. Teachers like Perry Stone take Kabbalistic and Jewish tradition and impose them on the church.

We celebrate Biblical festivals, but do not include Jewish tradition. Many Messianics seem unaware there is a difference and that Jewish tradition can just as easily have pagan roots as can that we find in the church.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Marybee said:

Perry Stone (ya, I know He’s a Branham advocate), has a great teaching on Rosh Hashannah and the pre-trib rapture ….

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Eve said (in a comment on the NAR dodgy belief in soundwaves and special sounds):

In some Messianic groups, the shofar is blown directly at the belly to release people in the spirit. I first came across this amongst followers of Perry Stone. I don’t know where it came from originally at the human level, but spiritually I have no doubt its source.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Eve said on another comment about messianic stuff:

Perry Stone teaches some spurious stuff not found in the Bible about the Feasts. God TV Europe last night was awful, misquoting Scripture and twisting it to get people to part with their money using Tabernacles as an excuse.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Marybee said

Doublegrace and Emi – hope it’s ok if I put in my thoughts about Perry Stone. I listen quite often to his teachings about the Jewish feasts and have gleaned a lot from them. I feel he backs up what he teaches with plenty of scripture, and I love learning about the feasts and their fulfillments. Of course, he’s pre-trib, so I agree with him there:). That said, there are times I can’t watch him, not being comfortable when the WOF type messages come. He does always use scripture, which I appreciate.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Javanut said

The difference between acknowledging our Jewish roots and Judaizers is this – the Judaizer said you “had to” observe the Law or you wouldn’t be saved. No Christian says this.

As far as I know, Perry Stone is ok. When something is just his opinion – he says so.

The difference between acknowledging our Jewish roots and Judaizers is this – the Judaizer said you “had to” observe the Law or you wouldn’t be saved. No Christian says this.

As far as I know, Perry Stone is ok. When something is just his opinion – he says so.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Perry Stone is not WOF. And once Paula White announced her divorce, she was never seen again on his show. He sells books and DVD’s but doesn’t beg for money – he is quite upfront in saying that the book sales support the tv time.

Yes, he is on TBN as well as INSP, WHT, and Daystar.

Yes he is pretrib, premill – what I consider to be sound doctrine thank you very much

He is a fifth generation Church of God pastor/evangelist, honors his father, has been married to one woman and lives modestly. I have listened to him for over 5 yrs and not once have I heard him say anything that is outside of classical, orthodox, evangelical Protestanism.

While you’re busy discerning false teachers out there – don’t get so paranoid that you see one behind every bush. Not everyone is bad and out to “get you”.

Comment by Javanut | December 31, 2008
Javanut:

I am not paranoid. I say what I see and what can be clearly documented and proven from the word of God. And as to seeing one being behind every bush, I disagree – in the modern church there are sadly about ten behind every bush! If the flock do not see them, it does not mean they are not there – is it because they choose not to discern and because they do not really know the word of God for themselves?

As for them being ‘bad and out to get people’, some false teachers or false prophets are plain bad or greedy, others are plain deluded. Some are a mixture of good and bad. I have repeatedly stated that someone’s passion, sincerity or moral ‘goodness’ is not a sign of whether they are on the straight and narrow path.

Paula White’s divorce is really the least of my issues with her. If the only reason he did not invite her back is because of her divorce with Randy, that speaks volumes about the man’s own credibility, discernment, teaching and prophetic ability as the woman is terrible.

Then there is also Morris Cerullo who Perry Stone is doing a conference with in about one week’s time and the other monsters of the ‘faith’ he still hangs with that he should have nothing to do with.

>>not once have I heard him say anything that is outside of classical, orthodox, evangelical Protestanism.

Do you endorse what was said then as listed above – whatever the money is used for that was being pimped for?! It is possibly deemed ‘orthodox protestanism’ in some circles in these times, but not remotely orthodox scripturally.

Pretrib is not sound doctrine. However, I recognise that many Christians have been taken in by it.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
He doesn’t send out appeal letters – he is quite open on his show to say that his ministry is supported by people buying books and CD’s. That is fair – you are getting something for your money.

As for the Meal that Heals – I’ve never heard him “guarantee” healing – but rather that meditating on the atonement and what the word says about healing will certainly help.

As for pretrib – my bible says we are saved from the wrath to come – not hunker down and get ready for the antichrist. I could say posttrib is heretical and unsound doctrine but I won’t – because heresy isn’t defined over one’s view of the trib.

There are both pretrib and posttrib people who are good Christians – they have different ideas but that does not make them heretical. I don’t agree with everything Charles Stanley teaches but I don’t go around calling him a heretic.

Bottom line: don’t go looking for trouble where there is none.

Comment by Javanut | December 31, 2008
Come now, ‘meditating on the atonement and what the word says about healing’ is NOT what he is selling or saying.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Since when did being saved from God’s ‘wrath’ at judgment [as sinners putting faith in Christ are] and being raptured up before ‘the great tribulation’ become one and the same thing?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Since God does not pour out His wrath on us. See Romans 5:9, 1 Thess 1:10 and 1 Thess 5:9.

The Tribulation – start to finish – is the wrath of God.

Comment by Javanut | December 31, 2008
Javanut

How can that be when the antichrist makes war on the saints during the tribulation? Are these saints in the war having the wrath of God poured upon them?! No, of course not as persecution is NOT the wrath of God. They get martyr’s crowns.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
From a previous posting on this site on pre trub/post trib -

Some say it really doesn’t matter if Jesus is coming before or after the tribulation, as long as we are “ready.” They think we should all just agree to disagree, and love one another. But, “ready” is a relative term! It begs the question, “ready for what?” There is a huge difference between being ready to be gently whisked away to heaven on a pillow, and being ready to become a martyr at the hands of Antichrist! Is surface harmony worth the risk of huge numbers of believers being caught totally unprepared spiritually, emotionally, and physically? What about the “many” believers whom Jesus mentioned in Matt. 24:9-13 who would fall away when the deception and persecution of the last days arrives? If Jesus’ coming is several decades away, then perhaps the rapture debate is not all that critical. But, if Jesus is coming soon as the signs seem to indicate, one’s views on the timing of the rapture are crucial to being prepared to be an overcomer in the difficult days before His coming.’ (Tim Warner (http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/)

Up until very recently, I did not have a firm stance about whether I was a pre-tribber, mid-tribber or post-tribber. I had not even heard of the post-tribulation rapture. The End Times sequence confused me as did all the terms, pre-millenial, post millenial etc etc to be honest. I have found whereas End Times scholarship is very big in the USA, in the UK I have never heard it preached on – in any church or further biblical or missions or ministry training I have been in. I have heard isolated passages but nothing else. I read Revelation through and got confused and could not fit it all together. The Book of Daniel had not made much sense, neither did the other prophets (Zechariah etc).

That all changed this week or so when I have sought God’s face and asked Him to unseal Daniel’s visions. He gave me the vision as posted on this site and brought many things together for me. Strands of scriptures that had been hanging and not fitted into the puzzle suddenly fitted together and I saw many new things in Isaiah and Jeremiah and the minor prophets that tied into this and suddenly made sense. (I am not saying I know it all, far from it!)

I make no apology for what I posted – I give exactly what I saw in the same sequence I saw it. I had not ever been taught post-tribulation theology or the proper sequence of many End Time events but my vision is absolutely in agreement with the scriptures and God has opened my own eyes as well through it to correct End Times theology as well as given me a message to pass on to the world.

The Bible is absolutely post-tribulation – that is the end times saints suffer much before being raptured up at the Second Coming of Christ which is like lightning from The East. They – the overcomers – will with Jesus then judge the Earth and will reign with him on Earth for 1000 years – the millenium.

Some scriptures to demonstrate that the Rapture occurs after the Antichrist is revealed.

‘Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

“Immediately after the distress of those days (the tribulation) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

“Then they will deliver you to affliction and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name” (24:9).

He (the antichrist) will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them (Daniel 7:21)

He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. (Revelation 13:7)

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. (Daniel 8:24)

And the dragon … went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 12:17)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4) (If these saints were raptured up pre-tribulation, then the fact they had not recieved the mark would be irrelevant – they would not be around for it to effect them anyway – they therefore must be around at the time of tribulation for them to have refused to take the image!)

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. (Revelation 14:12-13)

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | December 31, 2008
Dear Miriam – I so appreciate your taking time to give us scripture to your view of end times, and I do understand what you’re saying. There are scriptures that back up both views. Just a serious question about the tribulation saints. The Word says something like “these are they who have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Wouldn’t the tribulation saints be those who repent after the tribulation starts, since at this point we don’t have to wash our own robes in Jesus’ blood, as He did it for us? Not to be argumentative but not once, that I know of, were God’s people not given an escape from His judgment, i.e., the ark, Sodom and Gomorrha, etc. I just really can’t see our Father demanding the end-time saints (who knew Him before the tribulation starts) go through His wrath when all his saints before didn’t have to do that. Seems that would make Him a respecter of persons, and that He is not. Happy new year, and since the news this morning said that Russia and China are increasing their armies, this could be THE year. I’m still gonna look up because our redemption draws near. Hallelujah!

Comment by marybee | December 31, 2008
the “tribulation” is not God’s wrath. they are not one in the same. please read Rev 12:17, really all of chapter 12, and you will see that the “tribulation” is satan’s wrath against the people of God because he knows his end is near.

additionally, if you read Rev 20:5 you will see clearly that the first resurrection (aka the rapture) does not occurr until after the “great tribulation”.

i too was taught a pre-trib “rapture” growing up, but one day as i was reading Matt 24, the order of the end times hit me like a ton of bricks and i have never been the same since.

Just like it is clear throughout scripture that God uses trials and tribulations to purify our lives, he will allow satan a time of intense persecution of the church (the tribulation) to purify his bride. this will seperate the pretenders from those who truly love and trust Jesus so that when Jesus returns, his church is without spot and blemish and his bride (the church) loves him with all her heart and not just because of the blessings he can give her.

we (the church) will go through the “tribulation” and we will need to trust Jesus so much that we love not our very lives. Please don’t allow our theology to get in the way of what the bible says.

Comment by Michael R | December 31, 2008
Miriam,

Greetings. I would like to share what I personally know about Perry. Lets start with the issue of money. I have been to his meetings and have see him on t.v. or computer and he has never (that I know of) begged for money. Actually he pays his bills (for example – t.v.) one year in advance. There are reasons why he does this. One reason, is when he gets letters or calls that people are upset because he (Perry) isn’t preaching a “sugar-coated”, “greasy-graced”, “postivie-thinking” gospel – and they tell Perry that they are going to withdrawl their support from his ministry – Perry isn’t persuaded one way or another because he preaches what the Lord gives him and not by the “dollar”. To me this is refreshing. Matter of fact – at his meetings, I have never seen or heard him take a lot of time (as we see it today it most churches) taking up the offering. Also, Perry doesn’t send out letters asking for money. He believes that the Lord will provide. He will not even sell his ministry partner names to other companies for them to solicit. One more – Perry doesn’t even charge for his meetings.

Now, lets move onto the issue of intergity. I am just speaking for my own personal view. One thing that I believe that sets Perry apart from other ministries is that he has not changed since his beginnings. Meaning he has not forgotten his roots. As ministries grow and for whatever reasons some ministers and their wives think they are “above” the people. Some that used to talk to everyone when their ministries were “small” now since their ministries are “big” won’t give them the time of day. Not so with Perry Stone. I have seen him before service or after talk with the common folk. I have personally seen him speak with others for hours (not exaggerating)and personally thank people for helping the ministry (whether by money or time or service). I believe this was instilled in him by his parents. His dad preached for many years and still preaches today when the opportunity arises. I believe his father is a holy and devout man of God. The things that his father speaks according to what he hears from God comes to past.

So the question is if Perry has high standards why would he “hang out” with the White’s? I can’t answer that since I am not Perry. What I do know is that friendship (I believe it went back to childhood with Randy)seems to be fractured or even severed.

To the issue of the meal that heals. Again from my knowledge, I have never heard of Perry saying you will be guareenteed a healing or financially blessed. Now, you stated aboved that Perry stated someone got blessed from taking communion. That is one person – could there be more – sure – whether financially, physically, emotionally, etc. Yes there is danger if we get out there and start to tell people that if you do this God will make you a millionaire, have many cars, dwell in many homes, etc. Again from my knowledge – I have not heard of Perry doing this.

To the issue of mysteries and secrets. I think we all can see that the word of God is full of mysteries and secrets. If God shows someone a mystery that they couldn’t figure out before all should be well if it lines up. Now if someone is claiming that they are the only ones that can receive these secrets – woe to that person. Psalm 25:14 states The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant.

To the issue of Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation. Wow, where to begin. I think the bible has verses that can fit for all 3 views of tribulation. Before moving on – I would like to thank you for opening this post with a spirit of kindness. What I mean by that is that you did not come out with a mean spirit and start to blast someone. You came out with I don’t know much about Perry except the following. For this day a time that is also refreshing from a believer. I hope this Tribulation talk will spark a good spirited debate amongst Christians.

I always leaned toward the fact that all Christians must be ready at all times. Whether its Pre, Mid, Post – be ready. As I stated earlier, lot of verses in the bible that can fall into all 3 views – so the debate continues.

Let me ask a question to someone that might be reading this and is a messanic Jew. I have been told that messanic Jews don’t get in the debate over Pre, Mid or Post. Is that true?

I will end here with this. Everytime I hear Post-Tribulation – it reminds me of a revival (false) that happen in a town next to me this past year. Yep, you guess it – anyone heard of the Lakeland Outpouring? I could tell you some stories that happen there. I will leave you with one that I witnessed my self. Before I do, I know the question that someone might ask – why did you go. First, something didn’t add up from the reports that I have been hearing and plus checking the evangelist website – something really didn’t add up. So if someone spoke out against it people would say how do you know without being there. First – the bible and your prayer life will give you the answer. Anyhow to prove a point I went to one evening service. After the evening service (something still didn’t add up) I decided to go to one of their morning teaching services. Make a long story short – those leaders and teachers don’t believe in a rapture at all. They believe in Post-Tribulation – meaning that we the believers are going to perfect the earth – to get it ready for Jesus to come back.

Way it sounds there seems to be two different groups that believe in Post-Tribulation with slightly differ views. One will perfect the earth for Jesus and the other group will be raptured up and as soon as they reach heaven they make a u-turn back to earth to rule and reign.

If your Pre-Trib you believe that you will not experience the wrath of God.

If your Mid-Trib you believe that you will be here to see the peace agreement that the antichrist sets-up and most likely when he breaks it.

The debate continues……

Blessings to all
kc

Comment by KC | December 31, 2008
[Just saw the following non-copyrighted item on the web and would like your reaction to it. Thanks, God bless. Lou]

PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS !‏

How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He is now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. Since Jesus must personally participate in the rapture, and since He can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends, the rapture therefore cannot take place before the end of the trib! Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) (which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening – Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who would be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54)! (Will death be ended before or during the trib?) If anyone wonders how long pretrib rapturism has been taught, he or she can Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards.” Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 it was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Other Google articles throwing light on long-covered-up facts about the 178-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Revisers of Pretrib Rapture History,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Desperados” and “Deceiving and Being Deceived” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” which is available at Armageddon Books online. Just my two cents’ worth. Todd

Comment by Lou | December 31, 2008
Thank you KC. I would agree with your assessment of Perry Stone after watching his ministry and being in his ministry meetings myself.

To those who think they know eschatology – first define terms – know what you mean by saint, elect, etc. There were saints before Christ and there will be saints after the rapture – doesn’t have anything to do with the Church.

Yes the 7 yr period of time from Seal #1 to Vial #7 is the wrath of God. Any straight reading of scripture will tell you that. And we (the Church) are saved from the wrath to come. Period.

Learn the difference between Israel and the Church. The Tribulation isn’t about “perfecting the saints” – Jesus already did that on the cross. It’s about wooing the remnant of God’s elect – read ISRAEL – back to Himself. We, the Church, don’t need to be wooed as we are already made righteous.

If the Tribulation is to “purify the saints” what about the church that existed from 1850 to 1940? Do they somehow not get purified? Only the church of the last 7 yrs gets purified? How silly.

As for the passage in 2 Thess 2 – read it again. Slowly this time The Thessalonians had been given a letter saying the rapture was already past and they were already in the Day of the Lord – Paul tells them no – it hasn’t happened yet. First the Restrainer has to be removed. Then the Antichrist is revealed – after we are gone.

Finally, Paul said to comfort one another with these words – it’s hardly comforting to know that you have to endure the wrath of God after you’ve been saved. I find it far more comforting to know that God saves us from the wrath to come!

Comment by Javanut | December 31, 2008
Javanut, thanx for your input. I agree that people mix up what the destiny of the Church is with the destiny of the Jews. We are told that all this is a mystery, so we should not be surprised it is so hard to come to one definite conclusion. If one cannot see that these have two completely different destinies, there can be no completely correct solving of the mysteries.

In this, I do not mean a Jew cannot receive salvation the same way we can presently. But for the most part, Jews and Christians will relate to the earth’s future in different ways. Christianity for the period of Grace is like a perenthisis in God’s goal for the Jews and their earthly coming Kingdom of God.

Lately, there has been a back-country teacher explaining this, and proving it from the Word. His name is, Les Feldick. His teachings are now spreading on TV. He is nothing like all the popular preachers we have come to expect on television. I suggest people hear him with an open mind, and see if he does not clear up some of the mystery in his quaint but solid way.

Sure, if you google his name, you will find dissenters. And I have one minor particular point I disagree with him. But as for the mysteries, I find myself in full agreement with him. …DavWms

Comment by David L. Williams | December 31, 2008
I don’t find anything wrong with Perry Stone. He preaches the word the way its supposed to be, and I appluade him for that when today most preachers are compromising the word of God.

Comment by prepare ye the way | January 2, 2009
I haven’t posted here for a while,I’ve not been online much for a few weeks. I must say that I am pleased someone has picked up on the issue of Perry Stone at last. As a messianic, I am very worried about the mix of truth and spurious stuff he puts out. It sounds very plausible to the uninitiated. The truth is, a lot of his teaching comes from extra-biblical sources. He uses “The Book of Jasher” to support his arguments. This manuscript is not accepted by scholars as genuine. Stone claims it is the history of mankind up to Noah and uses it as a basis for some of his teachings. If god had meant that to be valid it would be in the Bible.
He teaches that the church should practice 40 days of awe before the day of Atonement – where in the Bible is that? Most Jews only acknowledge the days of Awe between Trumpets and Atonement, but that is not a Biblical concept either.
I have tried to get an answer from Perry as to where he gets this from, but each time I try, I get a reply saying he is out of the country.

It is true some of his teaching on symbolism has a grain of truth, but most of it is fanciful at best.

He bases a lot of what he says on Kabbalah, this is very dangerous, and contains occultic material. People who wish to learn about their Hebrew roots can find much more sound and helpful teaching elsewhere – for free- with a little patience. [Perry sells most of his teaching on discs and books, much of his broadcasting and internet page give tasters for "must have" teaching. Like many WOF people you have to pay him to hear what he is really saying]

Comment by Eve | January 2, 2009
Whenever Perry quotes from an extra-biblical source, he says so and states that it is not scripture but merely helpful for further study. Nice try and thank you for playing “Let’s Turn Everyone into a heretic!”

Comment by Javanut | January 2, 2009
But perry goes further with extra biblical stuff. he builds a doctrine out of it.
Look at the previous examples I mention. He also looks to Kabbalah for explanations and insight. Very dangerous stuff. t

Comment by Eve | January 3, 2009
In Revelation the letter to 7 churches is a very sad one. There should be 7 purified churches, but there are only 2: Smyrna and Philadelphia. The other 5 churches receive rebukes and a couple receive a threat that if they do not repent He would remove their candlestick. The candlestick is, of course, their branch on the menorah…like the one in the temple. John was a Messianic Jew who knew the workings of the temple of his time. When Jesus says their candlestick will be removed John has the image of a branch being broken off the menorah. In the temple the menorah lit across from the shewbread. So, the taking away of the light gave them darkness and they could not see the bread. If there is no light, there is only darkness. Without proper illumination the true bread cannot be found. No matter what, Jesus came to the Jews first, and He still used those things to speak about truth. The tabernacle on earth was a replica of those things in heaven. Everything in Revelation is from a Messianic Jewish perspective.

Only 2 churches (Smyrna and Philadelphia)are true witnesses. In Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clotherd in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth (not mouths, and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prohecy: and have power over water to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

And when they shall have finished their TESTIMONY, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and kill them.

Luke 21:12 But…before all these (Jesus talks about false Christs; nations warring; commotionsearthquakes; famines, and pestilences; fearful sights and great signs, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. AND IT SHALL TURN TO YOU FOR A TESTIMONY.

Jesus never says there will be a rapture. Instead He says, …he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

There is the church (ineffective churches) and then there are witnesses as in Rev. 11. Witnesses are martyrs.

Comment by Crystal Thorne | January 4, 2009
Perry Stone,has a video that equates the pretribulational rapture of the Church with the Jewish betrothel,marriage and wedding tradition.This in itself is not based on scripture,but rather on the traditions of men…If Perry Stone was being lead by the same Spirit who quickens the dead in trespasses and sins,then he would not teach that the Lord is okay with our believing in,or following the traditions of men. [] Forbid that the Lord himself would ever follow the traditions of men,even unbelieving Israel.

I Think that Perry Stone is somewhat of a confused dispensationalist,who sees the dichotomy between the church and unbelieving Israel and the whole unbelieving world… However,he does not see his on folly,in attempting to win over unbelievers with this foolishness…He’s trying to make faith in Christ Jesus easy and inclusive for all unbelievers,especially Israel…He knows that there is no dichotomy between Old Testament believers and New Testament believers.The scriptures teach this truth… For we are of one and the same body…The Spirit of Christ,which is the Holy Spirit,indwelled the Old Testament prophets and all of those who believed…So then,this means that death can and will only be swallowed up in victory once! Which means,One second coming.One rapture.One resurrection of all Saints and all UNBELIEVERS…One and the same day of Judgement and rewards for all…Revelation 20:15 KJV, states,And WHOSOEVER was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire…Well then,this means that unbelievers and believers must be standing here,in the one and the same judgement…Else “whosoever” would not apply,if they were all unbelievers… See also Daniel 7:9,10…

See 1 Peter 1:11,Isaiah 25:8,1 Corithians 15:51-54 and Hosea 13:14 KJV… Both Isaiah and Hosea were speaking to the people Israel about Christ Jesus,long before he was born…Therefore before he promised to send the comforter,the Holy Spirit whom proceeds from the Father… See the Gospel of John…

I cannot see a pretrib,midtrib rapture.The only one that fits is post trib.Yet i cannot see how this can be right either,since there is scriptural evidence for every position one holds…Forget about Perry Stone… Watch and pray,that’s all…

Comment by Yeshuamyking@comcast.net | January 4, 2009
Perry Stone is an exciting and bold preacher. Do I know that all his teachings are accurate? Nope. He draws conclusions that are not always logical or conclusive but I like his spirit. He gets way over my head at times, which is why I can’t say whether he is accurate or not. He’s a pretty smart guy.

My concern with Perry is he gets around too many WOF and TBN nut cases. TBN is hogwash. Flakes like Jesse Dufidiot, Leroy Thompson “Got gots a miracle for chu, and others. Morons.

He’s gotta be careful. Essentially, WOF is now a full blown cult. I know..I was in it for 12 years. However, I believe he is a pretty straight guy. Let’s give him time.

David

Comment by David | January 6, 2009
The question posed on this thread is whether Perry Stone is Biblically sound. Since he adds Jewish tradition, Kabbalah and extra-Biblical books to the mix the answer has to be NO. He may be sincere, he may be clever, but a lot of what he says is way off the mark. Imposing the days of Awe on the church is definitely not Biblically sound. Using the “book of Jasher” to base his understanding of Biblical prophecy on is also Biblically unsound.
Test everything he says thoroughly. It’s not all wrong by any means, but the mixture of good and bad is dangerous.

What does bother me is that the teaching he claims is important for the church and a “must have” is only available to those who pay.

Comment by Eve | January 6, 2009
I have never heard Perry “impose” the teaching of Days of Awe on the church. First – he doesn’t have that authority. Second – he presents it as Jewish tradtion and says – now what can we learn from this?

As for him selling books and CD’s – that’s how his ministry is supported. He doesn’t beg for money, doesn’t send out appeal letters – so he states quite openly that his ministry is supported by what you buy. Seems fair enough to me.

Comment by Javanut | January 6, 2009
I have heard Perry Say we should all observe the days of Awe, and an exaggerated version at that, 40 days, not the traditional days between trumpets and Atonement.
There is nothing wrong with writing for profit, but selling teaching that the church needs to hear and making it only available to those who can pay is wrong. I agree Perry does not beg for money, but makes his teaching available only to those who will pay for it. God’s word to the church is not for sale.
His mix of Judaism and Christianity is not Biblical and for people who do not know about his sources and the background stuff it is dangerous.
Whatever you say, it is not Biblical.

Comment by Eve | January 7, 2009
You can read his articles on his website for free, you can watch his half hour program for free and you can attend his conferences for free.

Yes you do have to pay for the books and CD’s.

Secondly, I do know his sources and have checked his references to ancient texts myself and he does accurately quote ancient texts and says so in his teaching. It is perfectly reasonable to study extrabiblical sources as long as they are distinguished from sacred text.

Perhaps what he says is more academic and you are looking for more exhortational teaching?

Comment by Javanut | January 7, 2009
How can one read the Bible and not have a mix of judiasm and christianity? The OT is judiasm? I don’t get your comment Eve?

Perry is full of exciting facts and information. I listen to few on TV anymore but I always learn something from Perry and watch him when I can, he is power house for the Lord. I have purchased several of hismatrials andthey were worth every cent.

David

Comment by David | January 8, 2009
I meant Rabbinical Judaism. The Old Testament is NOT Judaism as we know it today. If it was they would accept Messiah Yeshua.
It is valid to read the extra-biblical sources, I agree, but Perry seems to give too much weight to them. The Book of Jasher is a prime example of this, it’s provenance is suspect, but Perry accetps it and bases teaching on it. Exciting facts and information are not good or bad in themselves, but when they contradict the Bible they must be discounted.
You cannot fault Perry on his enthusiasm, but what he says must be tested against Scripture, I just cannot find much of what he says is supported by it. We have to test the ancient texts against scripture, not the other way round.

Comment by Eve | January 8, 2009
Eve – can you briefly sum up the book of Jasher?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 8, 2009
The book of Jasher claims to be a history of the world from the creation until the period of the Judges in Israel.

Comment by Eve | January 9, 2009
Greetings to all:

Again, I have listened to Perry for some years now – To my knowledge he has not once quoted an extra-biblical source without giving the reference. In regards to the Book of Jasher – no we are not to accept any outside source as “The Word of God” but if the “The Word of God” speaks about a book that is not in the bible I would think it to be wise to learn from that outside source (book).

Side note: With so much false teaching out there today, I think it is easy to scruntize everyone. Yes, we should be aware of false teaching, preacher, prophets, etc and know the bible but lets be careful how we handle each situation. To be honest I like everyone could find disappointment (fault) in everybody. I am not saying anyone here is doing that – just be careful. We need to rightly divide the word.

Back to Perry. I can say that attending Perry’s meetings has been refreshing to what I have seen on Christian TV or much less in the American church. The reason I said that is Perry still preaches on The Blood, The Cross, The Holy Ghost, and Sin. I am not trying to “pump” Perry up as some superstar but as a witness to his ministry he has shown great wisdom, character, and discernment. Let me give you a firsthand report: Almost a year ago, I attended a meeting and in this meeting we had an opporuntity to speak with Perry. Perry asked us where are we from and I told him the town we lived in. From that answer, he asked me what I thought about the Lakeland revival. Please understand that the question that he asked me was one month after the revival started. I told Perry something is not right there. He agreed with me. Matter of fact there was another well known minister that was on the phone with Perry right before Perry and I talked. After Perry agreed that something wasn’t right, he told me that the well known minister had reservations about what was going on down in Lakeland. Amazing part of this meeting (talking about Perry’s meeting) that most don’t know – while Lakeland was flaunting their healings in front of the world – a lady confined to a wheelchair had been coming to Perry’s meetings for the last 3 nights to receive her healing. But this prayer request was not made known to all just a few. Another amazing part about this healing is it was not done in front of large audience or T.V. It was done prior to the service in a side room while people where praying for the service. Yes the lady stood up out of the wheelchair and starting walking and praising God and eventually everyone saw what happen – what a service! That was not all – at least 2-3 others that were bound started to walk.

Blessings to all
kc

Comment by KC | January 9, 2009
Why do you think it flaky/off then – why is it rejected from the canon?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 9, 2009
Not sure if that question is for me but here goes. I don’t claim to be an expert on the book of Jasher or other extra-biblical books but from reading and study some of the material from the book of Jasher it seems to me it backs up what the scripture says. Again this is my personal view. Why is it rejected from canon? I don’t think anyone has the answer to that question. Just like why don’t the scriptures tell us all what a certain king did (i.e. 1 Kings and 2 Kings) but instead scriptures says “are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah or Israel”. For whatever reason (only the Lord knows) things like this wasn’t to be counted as canon. So I think from here is that it is good reading and studying material and we can glean from it but all in all the scriptures are our main source. Just like church history – not all church history is recorded in the bible – but we can glean from books that talk about our roots. I would think that one reason why all these things are not recorded in the bible is because most would not have the time to read everything – just think about it – some now have a hard time taking time to read much less study the 66 books.

Blessings
kc

Comment by KC | January 9, 2009
Scholars have never accepted the book as genuine and it only appeared a little before 1840. The book is not “flaky” as such and may be true, but that is a far cry from being Biblical or using it for teaching. [There were many books that are not "flaky" that are not in the Bible. God has overseen what he wanted to include. He did not see fit to include the Book of Jasher, I am happy with that.] Perry Stone went into great detail about it and based a lot of teaching on it. That is what I have a problem with.

Comment by Eve | January 9, 2009
Miriam,

I ask you this question.

Is there any preacher/teacher preaching/teaching sound doctrine?

I have read your teachings/prophecy on this site and find as best as I can tell they do line-up with the Bible. I respect your ministry. so I am not inquiring in anything but love.

I have been out of work 6 months due to illiness myself and a family member being ill. I have had lots of free time that I have spent studing. I have had to go back and re-think, re-learn, question a lot of things I just accepted as truth from ministers/teachers. I was fooled due to twisting scriptures. I was amazed to see how much of the NAR teaching/word faith I had bought into unknowingly.

I worked hard, took care of my family, went to what I thought was a sound doctrine church, went to many conferences and read/interpeted the scriptures just like the twisted teaching I was in.

I have been out of church (just visiting lots and lots of them for 3 years. I could no longer stand all the phoney personal propecy and prosperty being taught in them.) I was ill and could not attend church/or conferences for 6 month. Started studing all by myself with the internet.

Now I don’t know. I am really searching for a preacher that is sound that I can listen or read their teaching as I study my Bible. I don’t like being all alone. It is perfect ground for deception. Is there any truth out there? Is anyone preaching truth?

I am really seeking a true preacher. Do you know of any?

Blessing,
Sherry

Comment by Sherry | January 10, 2009
Sherry

Yes people are preaching truth still – but not many of them! And everybody has a mix of truth and error – nobody is perfect – so the need to discern. But in these days, almost everyone famous that you and I both would have heard of, have serious error among the truth.

Years ago I could have given you a list of many names of good preachers and writers, but since the Toronto Blessing infiltration – well, I can count on the fingers of my hand people that are still mostly ok.

There are good preachers and godly folk still, but they are becoming more and more rare, and the ‘good’ ones seem to be falling and compromising by the day. And I do not just mean the famous. A sound preacher in the media spotlight is a real rarity.

I know a number of people on this site recommend Paul Washer. I have only read one of his things – only because I have so little time – so cannot completely endorse him myself.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 10, 2009
John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Jonathan Falwell, Adrian Rogers (now deceased) John Ankerberg, Charles Stanley isn’t too bad… Chuck Missler is good but he is “an acquired taste” – takes a while to get used to his way of teaching

I would stay away from anyone who teaches Mysticism, Contemplative Spirituality, the “River”, tokin on baby Jesus, getting drunk in the Spirit or Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Lunancy.

Here’s a good clue – do they preach from the bible? I mean a bible in their hand while they preach? As in “let’s look at this verse” and then read and explain that verse.

Comment by Javanut | January 10, 2009
Miriam,
Thank you for answering. I do understand that with your job, family, church, and ministry, to answer questions is almost a (not). Can’t wait to check out Paul Washer!

Having respect for your time I will ask this question to the forum, of course I would love your input if your time allows, what I’m trying to say might not sound right in print, but I think you understand what I’m saying (badly)hahaha.

Does David Wilkerson preach/teach pertty much what lines-up with the Bible?

As I have been praying about a preacher/teacher that I could read or listen to several ministry letters from David Wilkerson fell out of a side pocket in my Bible cover last night after I wrote to you. Of course I wondered if it was God’s way of answering my request for a pastor/teacher who He approved of. haha

I said oh my goodness, I forgot all about David wilkerson. I used to follow his ministry for many years. I went to his web-site and began reading. I have to admit after I realized I had fell unknowingly for so much NAR/word faith/latter rain I began to pray for greater disernment. In my bookcase over 3/4 of the books I have read are NAR/word faith/latter rain. I got ‘em’ all nearly. Did I know they were NAR/word faith/latter rain when I read them? NO!

Articles that I think are scriptural others on this site will point out the NAR/word faith/latter rain in them that I totally did not pick-up. After it is pointed out I then can see it. As I pray and exercise the gift of disernment [walking in caution]I realize just how easy it is to get caught-up in wrong teaching and twisted scriptures.

I was at a revival last week and I found myself watching and listening as I have never done before. I have been guilty of believing these twisted/or out of context scriptures. Their spin was sometimes different from mine but over the years of hearing their spin I found myself repeating it to others.

I even now after knowing better catch myself praying the way they do. Even when I now know it is not in the Bible. Habit, conditioning, huh?

I have known some of these people that attended the revival for years & years. They truly love the Lord. Have been faithful as best a human servant could. During the worship I watched them. They were worshiping from their hearts in truth. Their worship was beautiful to watch. They were not doing anything unusual, it was just as though you could see and hear their hearts in their faces and voice. The key-board player was a young blind girl. Her worship was such a blessing to watch.

Since my eyes have been open I heard NAR/word faith/latter rain mixed all in the service. I honestly feel these people were totally unaware as I was for years. Even now as I said I still have a very, very hard time diserning it. I’m sure I still miss a lots.

Did I try to correct any of it? At this time all I can do is pray their eyes will be open to the truth as mine is now still being open. I am not a teacher, which is no excuse. However, I don’t know enough to even try to explain the error/the truth. I would end up apoligizing for trying to do something that I was not equipped to do,I would have a big mess confussing us all. I need to learn more myself/learn how before I try to correct others. Hopefully in the near future I can. These people I love. I live in a small town, some of them I was water baptized with years ago. I love them too much not to one day try.

So, forum is David Wilkerson teachings o.k?

Blessings,
Sherry

Comment by Sherry | January 10, 2009
Sherry

Some of David Wilkerson’s and Carter Conlon’s teaching are really great. Others are not so great.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | January 10, 2009
I believe Perry Stone to be a good man and a good Christian. Much of his personal and ministerial virtue has been raised here. His devotion to evangelistic and teaching ministry has been a blessing to millions of people and I believe him to be a godly servant of the Lord. His father goes to our home church and he has been a loyal, devoted Church of God (Cleveland) minister, as far as I know, as long as he’s been in the ministry, which was long before I answered the call of God in 1983 myself.

I believe Perry to be Biblically sound on the essential Christian doctrines. I can and do argue with his other assumptions on a lot of things, some of which I will discuss here, but overall, I’ve never heard him teach anything heretical or out and out false doctrine. I may not at all agree with a lot of what he says about a lot of things, but I cannot and do not believe he is a false teacher at all.

I have never met Perry, strangely, even though we both live here in Cleveland, TN and are in Church of God circles here. In returning mail of his that get sent to our P.O. Box here in Cleveland, TN that I accidentally opened that didn’t have his ministries’ name on it, I decided a few years ago to visit there and drop it off. I think his gracious staff were grateful for me returning their mail – which had checks to donate to his work – which I had accidentally opened.

When they found out I was a COG minister, they took me on a tour of the ministry offices (a most impressive site) there and came close to meeting him. They took me by his library and I could look in to see him, with his back to the door, studying away. It was a vast collection of books. He was busy, and they didn’t want to bother him and I didn’t know him, so I would not presume to have done so.

They then allowed me to take whatever I wanted from their collection of videos and books as a donation to our ministry. They told me he’s done some teaching on Mormonism, which I’d never heard of, and since our ministry is oriented towards countercult outreach, they thought I’d be interested in getting a copy of it, so they made sure I had a set of his teachings on that before I left.

I understand Perry is a generous man and that he’s been overall a blessing to a lot of people in this regard. And yes, he’s been a faithful husband to Pam for many years.

So I believe Perry to be a faithful Christian minister and have seen nothing to help me believe otherwise.

However, I do also agree with SOME of the concerns shared here. They have always been troubling to me. This is what I’ve come away with after watching and studying Perry for all the time I’ve been in the COG, which has been since 1980.

Some of them extend to his eschatology (end times) teaching that takes its cues from his take on the Hebrew roots of Christianity. He endlessly shuffles through this vast collection of teaching he’s done on Bible prophecy in the past and tweaks it here or there as current events occur so as to get clearer understanding of the coming of Christ, the Tribulation, etc. I don’t have a problem with that since no one has the final word on the end times and that this is a secondary issue when it comes to sound doctrine. What concerns me is that he ends up drawing attention to a specific timeframe or year as to when “something” might occur. He does this .. a LOT. It’s not “date setting” but almost the next best thing and I think his ministry can best served leaving off from that.

Others extend to his fondness for buying into and expounding upon questionable Evangelical and Pentecostal/Charismatic buzzwords and infatuations. Perry, I am afraid, really gets into that kind of stuff. His “Torah Codes” teaching was influenced by the long refuted notion of a “Bible Code” you can read between the lines of Scripture to “decode” and get new insights. His views on the “Meal That Heals” and “curse reversing” also hearken to this.

And when the infamous “Year Of Jubilee” lunacy swept the Full Gospel galaxy back in 1998, he jumped on board this bandwagon and produced a book on this in which he exhibits WOF influences that I simply had to discuss in a recent article I posted on our website. It’s a discussion of the 10 year anniversary of the WOF’s profound presumption in 1998 concerning the belief that national Israel’s nationhood would somehow bestow earthshaking changes in the church that year. The absolute lack of silence on this grotesquerie simply had to be remembered.

You can read it at http://www.spiritwatch.org/firejube.htm

In a 2005 article in his own ministry magazine, Perry sets forth the belief that William Branham was a “prophet to the 20th century” and steered his 3 page article to examining the now infamous seven visions Branham supposedly had in 1933 as he arose to teach Sunday School in Jeffersonville, Indiana. That to me is probably the most lamentable lack of discernment I see in him since Branham is anything but a “prophet” and is an antitrinitarian false teacher whose “visions” were hardly prophetic. Anyone listening to radio or reading newspapers in 1933 could have gotten the same information. Yet Perry has set a seal of approval on Branham’s work that should NOT be there.

And yes, Perry does run and hang with too many Word of Faith teachers who are indeed false teachers. It may be loyalty and friendship and fellowship, and I’ve not seen him come away from that unduly influenced except in regard to what I’ve seen.

I have enough time dealing with real cults and real false teachers then to expend it making Perry a target for criticism. I’ve shared my concerns and my kudos. Perry’s ministry has its issues but overall, I think you can trust it – and as in ANY ministry, you’d need to go into it with an open Bible, an open mind and yet one that is unafraid to ask questions and be ready to discern. I’m unafraid of anyone putting me under a Berean test of anything I’ve taught and I would like to think Perry will too ..

You can watch me and call me a “heresy hunter” and legalistic Pharisee speaking death upon him for having said what I’ve already said. But I cannot shake these concerns of mine for Perry. I think if he laid off the trendy and stuck more to explicitly evangelistic ministry that didn’t rely upon Bible prophecy so much, he’d be a lot more effective.

Of course, there are those who think that my concerns for sound doctrine are a waste of time also and that I could be a far better and more popular preacher if stuck to surfing the River more too ..

But I know I wouldn’t sleep as well .. or stand very solidly in the Bema Seat Time ..

Comment by Rev Rafael | January 11, 2009
Oh, and I’m so Pre-Trib that I won’t eat Post Toasties

Comment by Rev Rafael | January 11, 2009
I would have to say that you people have way too much time on your hands to squawk and point you fingers at the humanity of others, and not enough common sense to look at yourself. Take the plank out of your own eye. Do you really think squawking about this “false preachers” makes you any better of Christian than anyone else? Who are you to judge? You can believe in God, and be saved, without being perfect. That’s the whole point. What happened to common sense? Most of these “false preachers” you are condemning are mostly supplying information about history. History is not heresy. And if people in general are dumb enough to pay money for false miracles, then a fool and his money are soon parted. That doesn’t make them bad people. Or bad preachers. That just means that most people are stupid and others will always take advantage of that, preacher ot not. Can a person be genuinely stupid and still be a Christian? Still be saved and accepted by God? That’s a good question. Apparently not, according you people. Here’s a question for you. Should you be allowed to judge others without being judged in the same manner yourselves? Hmmmm. I think you better look that one up. You might be surprised at the answer. And here’s a follow-up thought. What if YOUR opinions turn out to be wrong? What is the things you are squawkig about are just an ignorant and uninformed as these “false preachers”? You should be saved anyway? What is your defense then. Save me but not him? Hmmmm. Somehow I don’t think that “I didn’t know” or “I didn’t mean to” is going to be a viable defense when we all arrive at judgement day, but thanks for playing.

Comment by Still Waiting for Common Sense | January 11, 2009
RE: Still watiting for common sense:

After the false preachers have been revealed to the point that even a child can see they are false I have come to the same conclusion.

If christians are dumb enough to pay for false miracles, then let them. If they choose after the truth has been clearly revealed to stay in ignorance , then leave them in it. Many are still defending these false Apostles, Prophets, teachers that they know in their hearts are false. Well, it’s time to move on and let them stay where they choose to stay. I hope their money can buy them the salvation, wealth, healing, miracles they are seeking.

I know it is paying for the lavish lifestyles of these false ministers.

It is the sheep that really don’t know any better I pray The Father will open their eyes. Those that don’t read and write. Yes, thare are lots of them. They depend on their pastors to preach them the truth. If their pastor is decieved or just refuses to believe truth they continue to send TBN their little $10.00 monthly. For them, living on a fixed income along with their inability to manage their finance very well. This is a huge amount.

It is fleecing the unlearned. Those that depend on their pastors for wisdom. I pray their pastors when truth has been clearly revealed will recieve wisdom/truth.

Sherry

Comment by Sherry | January 12, 2009
Eve:

Ok…I think I understand where you’re comin from.

Perry has a unique ministry. I admit…he gets over my head fast at times with his quick talk and information. I’m not qualified to disipher whether everything he teaches is relevant or not.

Though I no longer feed on WOF teachings much anymore…Kenneth hagin used to say “chew the hay and spit out the sticks”

Comment by David | January 12, 2009
David:
you said: “I admit…he gets over my head fast at times with his quick talk and information. I’m not qualified to disipher whether everything he teaches is relevant or not.”

if that is so, how do you know what is hay and what is sticks? be careful you don’t choke.

Sticking to the Bible would be a good start. So much of what Perry says is not Biblical. sometimes there seems to be more “sticks” than “hay”.

Comment by Eve | January 13, 2009
Eve:

When I said “I admit…he gets over my head….” I’m referring to OT culture and tradition. Perry is a lot more informed on all the rituals and traditions. He takes a lot of these OT traditions and ties them into teachings that are new to me. If Perry is goin off on a tangent that doesn’t line up with what I Biblically understand then I don’t give it much thought.

Does Perry teach something(s) that you believe is off? If so, is it a topic that is a difference of opinion or is it a teaching or belief he has that you believe is harmful? Keep in mind, nobody totally agrees with another 100% when it comes to the Bible, though I admit there are some grounds that are unmistakable, like Jesus’ death burial and resurrection. Which is why I denounce Hagin’s teaching that Jesus died spiritually.

I do not know all of Perry’s teachings but what I have heard has been good (emphasis on teaching not preaching), however….when I see him doin his southern humm and old time pentecostal preaching, I flip the channel b4 you can count to 3. He must have picked up that religious behavior from days gone by. It’s a like a white rendition of TD Jakes.

So what is it Perry teaches that you feel is unbiblical.

Comment by David | January 15, 2009
The rapture and second coming is to separate events people.
The second coming he returns with the saints. (the ones which were raptured) there are numerous scriptures that refer to people being allowed to escape these things (in reference to trib.) that escape being the rapture.
If he comes as a thief in the night then it has to be pre or mid. The tribulation is exactly what the bible says it is. (horrible) christians would be looking daily for his return and would never be caught sleeping during that time.
he is returning for his bride. I dont think he is going to let her get beat up before the ceremony.
he will return pre tribulation. there is to much scripture to deny that.

Comment by thad | January 20, 2009
Perry stone is fantastic.
i love to hear him speak.

Comment by thad | January 20, 2009
Greetings to All:

The following is open for discussion:

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 Specifically verses 7-9 scripture talks about a restrainer or withholder. Question who is this? Then when this restrainer or withholder is removed then shall the Antichrist be revealed. Now in Revelation Chapter 6 it states that there is a rider on a white horse. Who is this?

This is what I believe scripture is talking about:

The restrainer/withholder = The church
The white horse = The antichrist

If this is correct then I can see that somewhere between chapter 4 and the end of Chapter 5 the church has been raptured. The reason is that 2 Thessalonians tells us that when the restrainer (church) is removed then the antichrist will be revealed and if the white horse (antichrist) is revealed in Chapter 6 then the church must be gone.

I know some believe that the restrainer/withholder is the Holy Spirit but my statment to that is how will someone get saved in the tribulation if the Holy Spirit is taken away?

Whether you agree or disagree please feel free to comment.

Blessings
kc

Comment by KC | January 21, 2009
Check out the following which I ran across while surfing. Stuart:

CHUCK MISSLER – COPYIST !

Many these days are abandoning the pretribulation rapture view, and the June, 1995 article by Chuck Missler (”Byzantine Text Discovery: Ephraem the Syrian”) reveals why there is such a mutiny! First of all, the authoritative scholar that Missler cited, Dr. Paul Alexander, referred only to “Pseudo-Ephraem” and not to Ephraem the Syrian. (If an unsigned ancient manuscript resembles the real Ephraem but there is a question of authorship, they assign it to “Pseudo-Ephraem” – the word “pseudo” meaning “possibly.” For some groundless reason, Grant Jeffrey, the one who reportedly found the “discovery,” changed Dr. Alexander’s terminology! For more info on Jeffrey, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”) And Missler’s scholarship is also questionable. According to the Los Angeles Times (July 30, 1992), about one-fourth of Missler’s 1992 book “The Magog Factor” (which he co-authored with Hal Lindsey) was a daring plagiarism of Dr. Edwin Yamauchi’s 1982 book “Foes from the Northern Frontier”! Four months later Yamauchi’s publisher revealed that both Lindsey and Missler had promised to stop all publishing of their book. But in 1995 they were found publishing “The Magog Invasion” (which was either a revision or a replacement of “The Magog Factor”) – which had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (Dave MacPherson’s 1998 book “The Three R’s” has complete documentation on this and other pretrib scandals.) After listing “1820″ as the reported date of the birth of pretrib (he should have said “1830″), Missler sees a pretrib rapture in that Medieval writer’s phrase “taken to the Lord” and, since he evidently favors rewriting others instead of researching, is unaware that Dr. Alexander explained that this phrase really means “participate at least in some measure in beatitude” – which has reference only to doing acts of virtue on earth and not being raptured away from earth! Alexander added that the same ancient writer held to only one final second coming (and not to any prior coming) which would follow the time of Antichrist! (Readers can Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by MacPherson to see how groundless the Pseudo-Ephraem claim is and to learn how desperate pretribs are to find any pre-1830 evidence for their escapist view. Dr. Robert Gundry of Westmont College has also demolished the Pseudo-Ephraem claim in his 1997 book “First the Antichrist.”) Since Missler also leans on Thomas Ice, readers can evaluate Ice’s qualifications by Googling “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun),” and “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” (the latter part). For further light on the 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented pretribulation theory, Google or Yahoo “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts.” Finally – why would anyone who has the brains of a rocket scientist want to be taken up with the concept of an any-moment pretrib rapture? The answer may well be that there’s more money in elevating a rapture than launching a rocket!

Comment by Stuart | January 28, 2009
Quote: ” the Judaizer said you “had to” observe the Law or you wouldn’t be saved.”
===========
Actually the Judaizer was someone who said you had to come under the teaching of a Rabbi (not Yahushua) first, then obey all the oral laws ( called Talmud today) along with the Torah (God’s Word) and then you could receive Yahushua and be saved. This is a Judaizer. In reality it’s simply Faith (born-again) in Yahushua and then “walk out your faith…” by obeying His Word the Torah. Simple!

Comment by Gail | January 28, 2009
As for Perry Stone: He’s gone off the deep end. He mixes his teachings with truth/kabbalah/christian doctrine. It’s pathetic!

There are much better Messianic teachers out there but Perry…NO!

Comment by Gail | January 28, 2009
Latest email sent out by Perry Stone. My head is still spinning with all of the comments and I need to read them over to understand what everyone is saying. Anyway, whoever has time, might want to look this over and give a review.

Voice of Evangelism Newsletter
Latest News from VOE
February 2009

Dear xxx.,

Warm greetings from a cold town in Tennessee! I can tell winter is here, however we are praying, researching, studying and believing God daily to expand our outreach, to win the lost, to help restore the prodigal sons and daughters and to bless the Body of Christ. We are all very grateful for God’s help and provision at this season. As Joseph of old, I attempt to look into the future and plan ahead to ensure that the work of the ministry continues globally.

You and I both know these are prophetic seasons and while there is much apprehension among unbelievers there is great anticipation of coming events among the believers because we know the great things planned for the church in the future!
Exciting news from Dr. Stone

2009 PROPHETIC SUMMIT

February 20 – February 22, 2009

Perry

My very first Prophetic Summit is scheduled to take place in 2009 and will convene at the T.L. Lowery Global Foundation Center in Cleveland, Tennessee on Friday, February 20th through Sunday night, February 22nd.

Here are the five main subjects I plan to teach.

9-11 – INITIATING THE SIGNS OF THE FIFTH REDEMPTION – Evidence that we are entering the fifth and final redemption!

WRITING THE LAST CHAPTER OF THE GREAT AMERICAN EMPIRE – The Amazing Prophetic Patterns being Fulfilled now in America

THE BOOK OF REVELATION IN THE 21st CENTURY – Apocalyptic Predictions that can now be Understood!

THE COUNTDOWN TO THE NEXT PROPHETIC SHOWDOWN – The Inside
Information you don’t hear on the National News

THE PROPHETIC PROFILE OF PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA – How the Past Patterns of American and Biblical History may reveal his future

These messages will be recorded on CD and any left following the summit will be offered publicly at that time.

More Info
Featured Audio Message by Perry Stone

CD050 – The Jerusalem Factor

cd050Currently we are featuring this brand new 90 minute audio CD message entitled The Jerusalem Factor.

With all the media reports and current economic crisis facing our world Perry has released this powerful message on what to do during selective judgement and an ecomic crisis.

This is a vital message for where we are today.

More Info on CD050

Special Upcoming Event
08HX-CD125LIVE WEBCAST!
February 12th

Perry will host a LIVE webcast on February 12th from 7:00 – 9:00 pm Eastern Standard Time.

You can tune in for this live event by visiting our website at http://www.perrystone.org on Feb. 12th between 7:00 pm and 9:00 pm to watch as well as submit questions by email.

We are receiving an overwhelming response to these live media events. This is a wonderful opportunity to ask and learn as Dr. Stone and his guests share their responses to incoming questions.
New Manna-Fest Offer AM-74

AM-74
COMING SOON!

This Manna-Fest offer is to be released Feb. 6th and without a doubt will be one of the most important “now” messages for the nation.

Many of you have followed Perry’s prophetic insight for many years. Now he has combined a teaching on Israel and America into one dynamic offer!

This new offer will include the #6 book of his series, Unusual Prophecies Being Fulfilled, an Inside Israel Update. This brand new book will be a great tool to give to the unsaved, backslider and the Christian seeking proof of Christ’s soon return.

Also included will be a 70 minute audio CD that reveals the Patterns of the Presidents from 1992 forward and what Perry believes is the pattern of President Obama.

These items will be available as a set or sold separately on our website and on Manna-Fest. Be watching!
Unusual Prophecies Being Fulfilled
Books 1-5

Perry has written a series of books on Prophecy Fulfillment. The 6th book is about to be released and made available. Books 1-5 are each unique and focus on specific topics of prophecy. They are available now and can be purchased individually.

Book #1 focuses on prophecy fulfillment in recent hurricanes and tornadoes while Book #2 focuses on prophecy fulfillment in
terrorism on America. Find out more on each book by checking our website!

More Info – Unusual Prophecy Books
Thank you for allowing us this opportunity. We live at a time when Bible prophecy continues to unfold. The Word declares his spirit will be poured out on all flesh in the last days. Anticipate a powerful outpouring in your life today and in the days ahead!

Sincerely,

Perry Stone, Jr.
Voice of Evangelism

Comment by DoubleGrace | January 28, 2009
Any opinions on this from Perry Stone?

We are excited to announce a new release from Perry Stone and wanted you to be the first to hear about it!
AM-74Brand new Manna-Fest

Offer# AM-74

Perry’s newest book and audio CD offer is now ready and available for your spiritual enrichment! This new offer # AM-74 includes book 6 of Perry’s series, Unusual Prophecies Being Fulfilled along with a new audio CD entitled, Patterns of Recent American Presidents – Barack and Israel’s next war!

In the book, Perry will reveal untold stories about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. Learn how Ezekiel saw the Holocaust and how God raised up Israel as an end time army. You can read where modern weapons were predicted and how Isaiah 35 is being fulfilled NOW north and south of the Dead Sea. Then you can discover how an amazing 2,600 year old prophecy about the Dead Sea is NOW coming to pass. Information on why America is judged according to her treatment of Israel and how Elijah the prophet will help rebuild the tribulation temple is included. Read two amazing predictions of two famous rabbis that have stirred up the Orthodox Jewish communities. Also, there is a special photo section in this new book!

The 70 minute audio CD is a detailed study revealing the startling patterns in the Scripture that revealed the administration of Presidents Bill Clinton, George Bush and the patterns that Perry has discovered related to Barack Obama. This is the most amazing parallel of ancient history he has seen in any recent president. It will reveal how a major war in the Middle East could very well impact the President’s administration and legacy.

To Order
Thank you for this opporunity to share with you.

Sincerely,
Voice of Evangelism – Perry Stone Ministries
Overseas orders require additional shipping charges and must contact the Ministry Center at 423-478-3456 to order.

Comment by DoubleGrace | February 6, 2009
I’m a born again Christian that has watched Perry Stone for a couple of years. NEVER ONCE HAVE I HEARD HIM SAY THE THINGS YOU’RE CLAIMING!!! I’ve also never heard him claim that the “so-called” meal package will “heal you”!!! He also doesn’t ask for; nor tells anyone to send him money as ministries like yours do!! In addition he never sends out letters asking for money!! The only money that keeps his ministry going is the murchandise they sell!! “This is frankly, a welcome change from charletains like you folks!!Before people like you that call yourselves “Christian” start printing “DOWNRIGHT LIES” about another Christian you should first look within and get your facts straight!!! This kind of hatefilled gossip is just what the devil wants you to do. Why don’t you concentrate on positive teaching rather than trying to make a name for yourselves tearing other TRUE Christians down!! You all should be ashamed, repent, and get on track!!
If you spent half the time in THE WORD that you do on here tearing people down, you might be able to see what you’re doing!!
You definitely fall into the “wolves in sheeps clothing” category!!

I’ll pray that God will show you the truth, that is if you’re even open to him!!
Todd Thomas

Comment by Todd Thomas | February 6, 2009
As I read the comments here, I see so much discussion on people and the things they teach, whether they are right or not. I see one thing that is missing in almost all of them. They talk about men and whether they know the truth as the writer of the comment sees it. Has anyone read nthe passage the says we are “to work out OUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling”. If you’re spending the time you should in the word and in prayer God will lead you and the Holy Spirit will tell you whether something is heretical or not. The more of the Bible you KNOW the more you KNOW what’s true and what’s not.
Come on folks, stop berating the ministers that are trying to follow God and do what’s right in what they believe God is leading them to do. Who are we to say someone is “Off Base” or not? And just because somone starts to “preach” a certain way hardly means they’ll be teaching heresy!!
I’ll bet the devil is enjoying most of these anger and hate filled rants that think “this man” or “that man” was totally wrong. to be brutally honest most of these comments I’ve read appeared to be written by people who NEED these teachings the MOST!!
NO ONE person or Denomination knows the whole truth so lets concentrate on what we have in common “Jesus” and let these other things you don’t agree with for those that DO agree with them.
Try to remember the old song, “They’ll KNOW WE ARE CHRISTIANS by our L – O -V -E!!

Comment by Todd Thomas | February 6, 2009
I think Perry Stone is God’s anointed. He’s got the goods. He bears the fruits. Try the spirits! His teachings are educated, insightful, intelligent and well researched. Clearly, Perry Stone understands Christ’s authority over the fiery darts of satan’s attacks. Anybody that is as ON IT in their teachings/ministry as he is; being an instrument of God, will suffer blind sighted attacks as he has on this web site. I rejoice. Perry is being obedient to the Lord despite what persecution is coming at him. Church, if you think Perry Stone is a farce, hold him up before the thrown of God and pray for him.

Comment by SuzrQ | February 6, 2009
I’m a pre-tribber too! 2 Thes. Chapter 2 explains it clearly.

Comment by SuzrQ | February 6, 2009
DOLCINO? DUH!

Eschatological enforcer Thomas Ice claims that someone named Dolcino taught a pretribulation rapture in 1304 A.D. What Ice doesn’t like to reveal is that Dolcino’s “proof” DOESN’T EVEN EXIST! So what does Ice’s claim rest on? Well, LONG AFTER Dolcino’s death an ANONYMOUS person wrote a SECONDHAND history of what Dolcino reportedly penned – a history that was CHANGED SEVERAL TIMES between the 1300s and the 1900s! If you’re wondering about Thomas Ice’s qualifications as a scholar, Google “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers)” and “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun).” Many are unaware that after the Communists took over Russia and China, there were Christians in those countries who became violent with pastors who had constantly assured them that they would be raptured before anything resembling end-time horrors. Can Ice and other pretrib rapture merchandisers rest assured that if such scenarios occur in America and some other “rapturized” countries, Christians won’t be just as violent towards them?

Comment by Joe | February 10, 2009
Any pre-wrath rapture-ites on this thread?

Comment by John | February 11, 2009
I believe that we need to be reminded that the word of God tells us to be mindful of our tongues. That we should think before we speak. I also believe we need to remind ourselves
that in the old testament the words of the prophets was not
always accepted and sometimes ridiculed. And in some instances seemed far fetched at the time it was spoken.
Would we have believed Jonah, or Moses, what about Jesus? We should remind ourselves that even our own Savior was mocked for His words He was put to death for it. I have come to believe that it is not my place to judge a man for his words but to judge the man by his fruits. Good fruit comes from good trees, but bad can come from bad vines.
I think we should seek God for the truth and trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us. If scripture is given to back up the word spoken by a prophet and the prophetic word comes to pass that should remind us that God is speaking. The question is are we listening. Let us seek God for the truth He will reveal that through His word and through prayer.

Comment by Bonnie Burns | February 13, 2009
I have heard many teachings by Perry Stone and feel Pastor Stone is anointed, a true man of God. I can’t believe anyone would even question his character or credibility. Of course, for those who believe the Book of Revelation is pretty much all symbolic, I can see why they view his as “out there”. I feel there is very little symbolism in the Book of Revelation and most of it is literal. I treasure the teachings of pastors such as Perry Stone who can read and interpret prophetic scripture as to open the eyes of others. Those of you who think Pastor Stone is a “fake” should listen to more of his teachings, not only may you learn something, but God may reveal truths to you that you never dreamed possible.

laurenzo1

Comment by laurenzo1 | February 17, 2009
I just read where the World Press characterized Pastor John Hagee, Joyce Meyers and Jakes as being “pulpit pimps”. How dare you! YOU, THE WORLD PRESS ARE THE PIMPS. You slander men and women of God because of your obvious ignorance when it comes to recognizing true Christians. Shame on you!

laurenzo1

Comment by laurenzo1 | February 17, 2009
What is sad with Perry and Paula, Jesus said to take communion in rememberance of Him, not for us or to heal ourselves.
I have several of Perry’s cassette tapes and his theories and many of them he goes off the deep end. Though thought provoking leads down roads to pure silliness. Many times he does not reveal where he got his sources or he will reference you to another “teaching” tape. $10 a pop.
He pairs up with Joe from ‘Gods News Behind the News.’
Sorry, I never believed in a rapture. Plenty of God’s people had to sit through tribulation.
Revelations says, the beast will make war with the saints and overcome.

Rev 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

Saints are those that follow Jesus, truly follow Jesus. Jesus never said he was sneaking back to zap us up. Don’t care war Paul says, I know what Jesus said. Everyone is always looking for a way out. Your way out is in the afterlife, out of hell. Rapture teaching is a new teaching, from the Pentecostals arena. As always a women had a vision,
Magaret MacDonald, in a trance. Do your homework folks.

To the person that says, Chew the hey and spit out the sticks? Imagine that was dog S@it? If someone gives you lies mixed in with truth you should reject it period. The news media today gives you the same thing and more than half the world sits deceived. Guess that’s what happens when you put faith in preachers.

Comment by Gentilejedi | February 25, 2009
I believe Perry Stone to be a knowledgable Preacher that likes to reference the word in Hebrew, Greek, etc. text where translation may have lost when the KIng James Version was copied.

In regards to the meal that Heals book. I have read alot online discussing the book so when I was at Barnes and Noble I sat and read it. He doesnt claim that everyone will be healed but that through faith its a possibility. He goes through historical practices found in the old and new testament and shows the scripture behind what he believes. He even has a chapter that states that this book is not some kind of magic formula.

Comment by Micael | March 6, 2009
I’ve just watched Perry Stone and Benny Hinn and I came to this place because I want to know more about Perry. After reading several comments about Perry, I remember a Pastor on TBN said when you get confuse and can not understand, just put it on the back of your head so in the feature as you grow in faith you will said “aha ..now I understand”. Surely I will get mad if I try to take a conclusion from all messages above. From now on, I will open my heart wider for any teaching of Word of God from any sources. I like Perry’s style and method of teaching bible, I like also John Hagee. I know they are human and I’ll be better stay awake and pray for God’s only goidance and wisdom. I will continue watching TBN including Perry and John Hagee shows with Bible in my laps and ask God’s protection from any false teacher. I believe He himself will put light in my heart. Thank you all and God Bless You.

Comment by Jasiph | March 15, 2009
when you get confuse and can not understand, just put it on the back of your head so in the feature as you grow in faith you will said “aha ..now I understand”.

When you get confused, you should seek wisdom and study so you do understand. Not just blindly swallow anything and not think about it.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | March 15, 2009
Jasiph – instead of being fed lies by others why don’t you read through the scriptures especially the Gospels and ask the Holy Spirit to be your friend and guide and to illuminate all things for you. You will not go off the tangent unless you continue to listen and follow men!

Comment by brad | March 15, 2009
“when you get confuse and can not understand, just put it on the back of your head, so in the future as you grow in faith you will said “aha ..now I understand”.
It doesn’t mean you stop seeking.

So I absolutely agree with this:
“When you get confused, you should seek wisdom and study so you do understand. Not just blindly swallow anything and not think about it”,

There’s time where we can not completely understand and that is the time we have to stop thinking or we will be utterly lost.

Comment by Jasiph | March 15, 2009
Never blindly swallow anything. If you leave it on the back-burner, you’ve not swallowed it. Sometimes you do just have to leave things, and wait for God to tell you.

The need to have to “know” can be as devastating as kissing your mind goodbye.

Comment by NotAllThere | March 15, 2009
I agree with Todd Thomas. The most reliable source we can go to is God’s word, and let the Holy Spirit guide us. God says to just ask for his wisdom and he will give it . He also says to study to show yourself approved. I feel Perry Stone is an anointed man of GOD and have never questioned his teachings. Allow yourself to be lead by the Holy Spirit. He is our constant companion and teacher for our Lord Jesus Christ.
May GOD Bless You All!

Comment by Helen | March 17, 2009
If you are a Christian you must read this and sign the petition. It’s about our right to worship freely. Please cp[y and paste. http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=748

Comment by Daphne | March 19, 2009
Sorry heres the link. http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=748

Comment by Daphne | March 19, 2009
I grew up out side the church

some things Perry says About are out there are
For A person like ME
Died twice had a taste of Heaven and Hell and to GOD CHARIOT and my watchers crown
Jesus through perry has given me peace and rest to some areas of my life that only perry by the power of god would talk about
for those that do not agree accept jesus (a gift )now in time we will all Know the truth!!JESUS
RU4JESUS2
falcon

Comment by RU4JESUS2falcon | March 29, 2009
Perry Stone claims to be a prophet and his gullible audience buys into it. Anyone can say s/he predicted a tornado at a pastors conference, after a deadly storm. Anyone can do that.
He profaned the passover, but so have several other TBN preachers, just to get money. Paula White gets poor people to send her their monthly Social Security checks, which she cashes. Aren’t preachers required to have some kind of ethics?
In 2nd Timothy, Paul mentioned this gang would tell everyone what they wanted to hear. Peter also predicted this bunch, saying their destruction awaited them. But frankly, I’m hoping that the thirty years of atmospheric and subterranean nuclear testing that the U.S. and U.S.S.R conducted, fulfilled 2Peter 3:10-13, because it says people will survive Armageddon and no one will survive WW3.

Comment by Janet Carol | March 30, 2009
perry stone is one of the most christain man i have ever know. he’s a true man of god.he can back up what he preaches. why is it when god has some one that does his work? some one comes along and try they best to ruin them???????? i guess just like they did when jesus was on the earth.. any way he got my vote all the way….. and how do we not know some one is trying to play like him and lie about things ?but perry is very goddly man…..god bless him and his family and church

Comment by johnny henry | April 5, 2009
perry stone is one of the most christain man i have ever know. J.H.

But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:57

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. 1 John 5:4

No preacher including Perry Stone give us the victory in life but Jesus Christ can and does! As the words of the chorus by Eugene M. Bartlett, Sr “Victory in Jesus” tells us, “O victory in Jesus, My Savior, forever He sought me and bought me With His redeeming blood; He loved me ere I knew Him And all my love is due Him, He plunged me to victory, Beneath the cleansing flood.” And the word of God tells us in Roman 8:32 “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?”

God gives us with Jesus freely all things and not without Him. Jesus is our victory and Victory is Jesus’ middle name. He won the victory for us. There is no victory in life without Jesus who told us all clearly:

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. John 15:4-8

Comment by walter | April 5, 2009
KC
I don’t think that the restrainer is the church or the Spirit of God (A psalm that I know disproves this theory). There is no indication of a pre-trib rapture, and while I can’t say that it won’t happen, just be ready in case there is none (which is the more biblically sound view).

Comment by Sammy Sosa | April 5, 2009
Sammy

Thanks for the response back. I agree with you that we (believers) should be ready (at all times) no matter when the rapture takes place.

Just curious, if the restrainer is not the church or the spirit of God (Holy Spirit) then what do you think it is? Also, could you share that psalm (what chapter) that disproves the pre-trib theory.

Blessings
kc

Comment by KC | April 9, 2009
I’ve read most of this and I have to say there are too many people riding the coatails of preachers it’s the blind leading the blind. Do you want to know God (Yahweh) study the scriptures seeking Him only and He shall teach you. Learn the way God taught His people in the Torah to get out of the pagan gentile mindset.. If you are a child of Yahweh whether naturally or grafted in then YOU are in covenant and to deny it is to deny Messiah and all He represents and did for you. Not bound under the law of sin for Yahshua (Jesus) fulfilled the sacrificial cycle but most of the (church) doesn’t understand this. I pray my words won’t be taken out of context. May His hand draw us to Him to work together to fulfill His will to prepare for His coming.

Comment by FollowerofYahshua | April 9, 2009
I think Perry intends well, but he does get carried away at times though with some of his teachings. I also think his promotion of his dad’s prophecies and visions is disturbing as well.

Comment by Rapture Forums | May 7, 2009
To KC, I heard a very interesting thought the other day as to who the restrainer is. Michael the arch angel. Read Dan.12:1, it says he is the defender and has charge of Daniels people, which are the Jews contrary to popular opinion. Notice in that verse He stands up as if he has been sitting down allowing the Jewish people to be deceived into making a pact with the antichrist. It makes perfect sense to me as since that is his job would not GOD have to cause him to stand down at the appointed time? And then at the time of the end turn him loose. Anyone who has studied the wars against Israel since they became a nation knows that Michael was very busy during those wars protecting the nation of Israel! GOD has a plan for the Jewish nation and it will not be deterred, no matter what some anti semites might say! You will probably see them come out of the woodwork. Back to the subject, Michael has been given the job of protecting Israel of course at GODS direction and he will fulfill his job!! GOD BLESS!!!

Comment by Vince | May 8, 2009
Vince:

According to the book of Daniel and what I read in other scriptures, I would agree that Michael is the defender/protector of Israel. I would agree that no matter who or what country speaks evil against Israel and/or threatens Israel or even goes to war with Israel, they will not succeed (especially to the point that they would like – i.e. annihilation of Israel). I also would agree that when scripture states “Daniel’s people” or “thy people” in the book of Daniel, it refers to the Jews. I am not quite sure that I would consider the restrainer to be Michael even though it is an interesting thought. I can’t imagine Michael that is the protector of Israel, leave for a while then return. It would seem unlikely for an angel (especially an archangel) to take a “vacation”. Just like some will say the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, but again it is hard to understand that the Holy Spirit is taken away then brought back again or never brought back and the tribulation period will be like O.T. times without the Comforter. Again, this is my opinion from what I understand of the scriptures.

Blessings
kc

Comment by KC | May 9, 2009
KC,Vince
To jump in to your deliberations.
The only restraining/witholding influence revealed in scripture from the Garden of Eden to Revelation (eg 7:2 9:1, 20:1) seems to be an angelic one. There is no evidence that Paul had in mind the Holy Spirit or the Church (she not he!)which would contradict his message in 2 Thess and elsewhere.

Rider on white horse is probably deception (bow but no arrows!) and thus Rev 6 ties in completely with Jesus teaching in Matt 24 with the signs of the end. Here the saints being gathered is after the tribulation. Rev is the same (chap 7) after the tribulation of chap 6.

End times is really quite easy in overview though details will unfold as we are watchful.
2Thess 2:1-3 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the DAY OF THE LORD has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day WILL NOT COME, unless the rebellion COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness IS REVEALED, the son of destruction,
Matt 24:29 “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, BEFORE the great and awesome DAY OF THE LORD comes.
Antichrist – Great Tribulation – Backdrop of darkness – Day of the Lord (second coming, ‘rapture’, resurrection, wrath of God against the wicked – see 1 Thess 1:7-10 and 4:18 -5:4 as well to prove these occur on the same ‘day’)
Fits Revelation 6 and 7 like a glove as you would expect. No secret rapture. This is for false prophets.

“Jewish people to be deceived into making a pact with the antichrist”
There is nowhere in scripture this is prophesied. The pact is with ‘the many’ in Daniel 9 and in context seems to refer to an invasion of the holy land rather than any kind of agreement with the Jews.
This one point in a lynchpin of the end times theories of many and could in fact be a complete deception if we are all told to expect an agreement with Israel to reveal antichrist. Better to keep watch on all fronts and look for a cunning warlike individual who will sweep opponents aside and gather many for battle

Comment by Vic | May 11, 2009
There are MANY references in the bible to the “catching away” of the saints. The word “rapture” is just an english translation from the latin word “raptus” decribed in thessalonians. This concept is far from new. As far as Perry Stone, I have listened to him for many years and as others have stated, he is a knowledgable man of God that studies not just the bible but the background of the word as well. The bible is not just a spiritual document. It is also a historical one. Understanding the history behind the bible will help enhance your overall understanding of the bible itself. The scriptures tell us the greatest revival in history will take place during the tribulation, so newly converted saints will be here during this time. Just because a source used in enhancing our understanding isnt a chapter in the bible, doesnt mean the content itself isnt credible. Hopefully this medium will be used to discuss the greatest book ever written and use its words to ever increase our understanding and faith. I end my submission with prayer and love for my fellow brother’s/sister’s in Christ.

Comment by john | May 18, 2009
john:

you wrote: The scriptures tell us the greatest revival in history will take place during the tribulation, so newly converted saints will be here during this time.

Can you please cite chapter(s) and verse(s) on this?

Comment by Craig | May 18, 2009
This is so rediculous. Perry is not making a fortune off of his sales. Have we nothng better to do than to worry about an evengelist who is trying to encourage people in the lord. I know that alot of time is put into studying the bible, SO WE CAN UNERSTAND IT IN A MOE KNOWLEDGEABLE WAY……….the stuff just doesnt get made up, come on people. “Meals that heals” there is nothing wrong with some guidance. He’s making 12.00 a book. Eveybody is talking like he is making 50.00 a book. Now when somebody can prove to me he’s got a gold toilet lid in his bathroom or a gold toothbrush let’s even say “gold toilet paper” then will I lend a hear but please spare me……..does he get escorted in a limo where ever he goes..NO, HE DOES NOT….. please I cant believe what I am reading. What is wrong with learning scriptures WITH A LITTLE MORE guidance and knowledge. It’s not like I just gave Perry a 1000.00 for one book. and this is all you got to write about him. Perry loves the old testament and the jewish background and noTHing is wrong with that….why dont you guys go back to when he didnt have a pot to piss in and was broke, drIving around in aN old van, waking his son up at 5am and taking him across the states, TO PREACH the word of god, plus sleeping in that van, and home-schooling his children in that van, “NO” you dont want to write that…that is not cheap talk…BUT THAT’S THE TRUTH….HE WORKED HIS TAIL OFF TO GET TO THIS POINT AND GOD WAS RIGHT ON HIS SIDE EVERY STEP OF THE WAY…. PERRY ALWAYS TAKES TIME TO TALK TO EVERYBODY AFTER HIS TEACHINGS…YOU GUYS ARE ACTING AS IF HE’S GONNA RUN OFF TO ANOHTER COUNTRY WITH EVERYBODIES MONEY…Dear lord help us…..we should fall down on our knees and thank k god for raising up a man tah beleives we need to take this country back in the name of Jesus…..before it gets taken in the name of somebody else and we lose every right that we have…who knows we may end up like Russia if we dont get start get spiritual again…

Comment by cindy | May 18, 2009
I agree with you cindy!!!!!!! I have been to several of Perrys conferences. He is in line with word. I enjoy being encouraged, and it is needed in these last days. If the people only knew what was to come. If Perry can not minister to the people that have posted a comment on here then I hope and pray they can find someone who will. Because we are suppose to seek knowledge and wisdom. Perry is just doing Gods will and aslong as God is for him, then who can be against him. We dont have to defend him, the battle has already been won.

Comment by Betsy | May 18, 2009
Greetings to you Brother Craig! The initial prophecy starts in Joel. May I suggest you read Joel 2:28-32. This prophecy is reiterated by Peter in Acts 2:17-21. Then the clear end of this prophecy is outlined in Revelations. Please view Revelations 7:9-17. Also take a look at Revelations 14:12-18.
God Bless!

Comment by john | May 18, 2009
Man can be please some of the time, but certainly not all of the time.

I have thoroughly enjoyed Perry Stone’s teachings; this is a man who takes biblical history as well as world history very serious, I have never known anyone to study as he does. I will admit, Perry should take a stand on what he teaches regarding the biblical Sabbath, it appears that he tip toes around the true Sabbath of the Lord, in as much, he is a great teacher and I do believe he is used by Yahweh.

Comment by Ms. C | May 19, 2009
I have read some of the comments made about Perry Stone and would like to comment.

Let me ask this: If you went to your family physician and he said to you that you are going to die because you have a bad heart, but don’t worry I know a docotor that can fix you and you’ll live another 20 years, you can watch your children grow up, etc., etc., etc., how much would this man be worth to you, for him to “save” your life?

How much money is a soul worth? I have had the fortunate opportunity to be involved in ministries that were soly or at least partly involved in spreading the Word of God to the unsaved. IT COSTS MONEY! Whether your an evanglist or a street minister, or a missionary you need money. The only way to get this money is to beg for it from supporters and people who are willing to give it up. Not one person will make a difference but a few people do. The more you collect the more work you can do. Don’t get me wrong there are people that are out there that are looking to line there pockets and feel that they should get paid right off the top. I believe a true evanglist or missonary shouldn’t need to earn a paycheck per se’, because if they are doing Gods work then God would take care of them right? But on the other hand we are all people and have certain basic needs, like a home, a vehicle to get around, food in the refrig., clothes and shoes. While I agree that just because your in the “job” of Saving Souls you don’t need a 2010 Cadiallac Escalade, you might need a toyota or jeep to get around depending on the region your in. I think its all relevant.

My other point would be this these men and women are human and as in all things that pertain to humans there is an element of fallace.

That same situation: If your family physician referred you to that heart specialist and he operated and took out your left kidney by mistake (wouldn’t happen but stay with me), wouldn’t you be upset and higher an attorney and sue him. Then the question would be how much is your kidney worth?

Mistakes happen, things are said, and done because we are all human and make mistakes and say things on the spur of the moment that might not be factual, or might hurt someones feelings. Hopefully, there mistake is reveled to them and they are able to correct it.

Look at the crusades, how many innocent people died in the “name of Christ”. Christians are notorious for kicking their brothers when there down. Christians fight more among themselves then they do fighting the enemy. Are we really Christ-like?

Pastor once told me this: It doens’t matter how many key chains you have that say WWJD, and it doen’t matter if you go to Sunday School, Sunday Worship morning, and evening, Monday night womens ministries, Tuesday night bible study, Wednesday night services, Thursday night teen night, Friday’s Fish fry, and Saturday’s men fellowship, none of this will matter if your heart is not right with God.

Stop worrying about all the false profits, and money scandels that are out there, let your spirit lead you into what is the truth and stay in the Word of God so that your spirit is fed and in tune with the Lord.

The Holy Spirit will guide you and teach you what is truth and what is not, some of your faith should be spent on trusting the Holy Trinty to guide you and keep you in the loop.

Perry Stone is a man first, which makes him fallable, he is an evanglist second. I have been listening to Perry Stone for along time now, what he teaches is scriptual but like I said no one is perfect, what he is teachs lines up with the word of God, he is not teaching false scriptures.

A False Prophet: (according to scripture)

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, **which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods,** even that prophet shall die.

** a false prophet speaks a word that is not commanded from God, or comes from God or he speaks in the name of other gods.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, **if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously:** thou shalt not be afraid of him.

**so if a falso prophet speaks something in the name of the Lord and nothing happens then it is a false prophecy

Jer 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: **they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness:** they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah

**they use there position to committ sins

Thank you for letting me comment, I hope I haven’t offended anyone. God Bless.

Comment by Cookie | May 26, 2009
Brothers and Sisters, Do not be deceived. The Bible explains the Bible. The book of Revelation was written about Jerusalem. Jesus said that the blood of the saints and prophets would be upon their heads. “No prophet can die outside Jerusalem.” What Luke recorded corresponds with what John wrote in Revelation: “Babylon has fallen……in HER was found the blood of the saints and prophets” (Jerusalem). The word ‘antichrist’ does not have the same meaning in our language as it did in the Greek. Antipater meant ‘like the father.’ Antipater was Herod’s father. “We have no King but Caesar” is the denial of their King, Jesus. God’s wrath came upon his own people for their rejection of Him. To them He gave the law and the law brought condemation and wrath. A new covenant is given to those who believe that Jesus completely justified us in God’s eyes….”There is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus!”

Stop listening to false preachers and teachers who keep you in bondage by condemning you if you don’t tithe, and be set free to freely give.

Comment by dumbblond_free_in_Christ | May 28, 2009
To all,

I have listened to Stone myself, and also been to one of his services on a Sunday night. My strongest memory of that service was that there were two offerings taken that night, one for the church, which was Jentzen Franklin’s, and one for Stone. That night, before the offering, he talked about Abraham giving the spoils of war to Sodom and how it could be an example of us tithing. Its my reflection that he used that example to increase the amount that was given that night, and if someone has faith in God and believes the Lord will provide, then there is no need for the story. Perry Stone is a man however, and our brother, so I think we should be disagreeing with him in love. It should be our ultimate desire to see him walk through the narrow gate, and not the wide one. I personally disagree with alot Stone says and does, and in Stone’s case, I think he believes hes right in alot of what he does. There is a false teaching problem going here though, and its not only with him, but countless others. I don’t think this is anything that wasn’t expected by New Testament writers, its plain all through the text what is happening now. People are walking through a wide gate, and hearing what their itching ears want to hear. I just want to caution you all, read your Bibles and let the Holy Spirit teach you, don’t put your faith in a mans teaching, always test it. We are called to love our enemies, pray for these men who are false teachers, they occupy a platform most of us couldn’t imagine and have the potential to reach countless people the right way, if only they would…

Comment by JC33 | May 28, 2009
There are so many differing views of Bible prophecy that it’s easy to unleash on a minister who’s views differ from ours. Perry Stone has one of the most unique ministries today and that makes him an easy target as he teaches on Christianity’s Hebrew roots and how it all ties together. However I see Perry and others such as Sid Roth as helping to reconcile God’s peoples… Hebrew and Christian Gentile as we near the Last Days.

Comment by Chuck | May 29, 2009
I have personally met Perry this past weekend and I found him to be very smart and he can back up what he is talking about with God’s Word! It was a wonderful time. We took our children and our 13 year old son rededicated his life to The Lord!
If you ever are wondering about someone pray and be still and wait for The Lord to give you insight!
Praise God,
Sauni

Comment by Sauni | June 1, 2009
>b>endtimespropheticwords: “erroneous pre tribulation rapture doctrine.”

For all of you that feel the same as endtimespropheticwords’ comment above, or believe that there won’t be a rapture at all like many have stated here, I suggest you read “The Rapture Solution” (link below) so you can will finally understand the rapture, the tribulation, Christ’s second coming and the Millenium. You will finally see how post-trib rapture, mid-trib, and no rapture theory/doctrine collapses when you let Scripture interpret Scripture.

This is by far the best interpretation/breakdown of prophetic events I have ever studied. Once you start, you won’t want to stop. Be prepared to be completetly blown away!

http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Expanded.htm

Start from “How It All Began” and read page by page by clicking on “Next” at the bottom of each page!

Comment by Leumas | June 3, 2009
Leumas,
I am reading the the link you have given, and all I can say is WOW!!!! Thank you for posting it, but you really should post it on the, “Let’s talk about the Millenuim” post! I suggest people read this link Leumas posted, it will make you think and study more!!! I am really in to it right now!

Comment by OhhowILOVEJESUS | June 3, 2009
p.s. It does not just sweep over, it gets into details!

Comment by OhhowILOVEJESUS | June 3, 2009
Regarding Perry Stone, or ANYone that claims to be Christian, we are instructed by God’s Word that we would know them by their fruit, that is the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace,long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperence…against such, there is no law.

“Prophetic” falls into 2 categories; The one that the Kingdom Now, Joel’s Army, Dominionism, Latter Rain, etc, fall into where they claim that the Holy Spirit is continuing with NEW revelation, beyond the scriptures.
The problem? no standard—literally, anything can be deemed as “new”. Anything goes…like howling like a wolf or the “pig” anointing. These folks and their meetings tend to draw big crowds, because it is “feeling” and “experience” driven.

Then there is the group that accepts God’s Word as THE CREDIBLE and FINAL authority for all future events. As they are faithful to follow God’s Word, they receive insight concerning current events and how it is fullfilling the prophecies of old. Consider John the Baptist’s role. All he did was proclaim with passion what he knew was written by the prophets in the OT. Consider Jeremiah. The Lord moved on him to proclaim holiness and faithfulness to a God that had been forsaken by his fellow kinsmen. Neither of these guys were popular with the masses. Truth doesn’t play games, nor pad our emotions with goosebumps.

Back to Perry S. and the fruit, I came across his teachings probraly 10 years ago. Sure, there are times I smile and disagree. (Like I do sometimes with my kids, because no one is infallible) But he is one of the most solid preacher/prophecy teacher/evangelist/ I’ve come across. I personally have never heard him call himself a prophet. (Not saying he hasn’t, just haven’t heard it myself).

We as believers, need discernment from the Holy Spirit to tell the true from the false, especially in these times we are living in. Discernment doesn’t come by butchering and chopping up God’s Word. There truly is a comfort available in embracing the Whole of God’s word.

Leumas–thank you for forwarding the link on the rapture teaching. In the past I have studied all the angles on this and the pre-trib position is the only one that does not have to butcher, omit or realign the Word in order to make it fit.

Comment by MaryV | June 10, 2009
As i have read the postings on this site it scares me,that there is so much anger harbored in the comments.AS BELEIVERS in christ we are to build up ones faith not put down on those that spend many hours trying to equipt the saints,with tools and knowledge to fight our spiritual warfare.I think if we would spend more time in prayer instesd of trying to find flaws in other peoples lives we would be a whole lot closer to our maker.IF you do not agree with Bro.Stones teaching don’t watch him or write about him things that you don,t understand,but pray that God will open your understanding.

Comment by kc | June 12, 2009
Awesome discussions.

I believe in a pretrib rapture based on God’s word: ” Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth” Rev. 3:10

I believe the reason for the rapture is the mercy of God to those who are faithful to be “snatched away” from the wrath of God because they Are faithful to Him. But I also believe the reason for the rapture is to show those who need a “sign” that God is very real, and powerful. Who else could remove millions of people at the twinkling of an eye? And also, Believers have within them the Holy Spirit, and He would warn us who the AntiChrist is, and therefore, the AntiChrist wouldn’t be able to come into power as there would be many who would discredit him. (just my opinion here (:

The Tribulation period as I believe is not only to show the wrath of God for those who do not believe, but to give one last chance for those unbelievers to know God is real and all that is written in the Bible about him is also real, and that Jesus died for their sins, so they will have no excuse that they “didn’t know” when the judgement is cast.

One other area: I believe that Jesus did speak of the rapture. In Matthew he said, “As the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man” Matt 24:37 “At that time two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken and one will be left.” Matt 24:40, 41. (One will be taken where? One will be left where?) I believe that one will be taken in the rapture, one will be left behind.

I apologize for the long post. Praise the Lord and God bless one and all. Again, awesome discussions!

Comment by Little Sue | June 14, 2009
“The meal that heals” according to the BIBLE, GOD’S WORD. Not what man thinks, but what GOD HIMSELF thinks. Lets see what Paul says:

Paul states that the lack of discernment of the Lord’s body
(I Corinthians 11:29) is cause for damnation and is why many of us are sick today. The Greek word for body (soma) literally refers to the physical fleshly body of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, by His perfect life, sacrificed His body for our healing and blood for atonement of our sins. These two realities both occur on the Cross.

Through the shedding of His blood, Jesus redeemed us
from the curse of the law of sin and death (Galatians 3:13).
But the broken body of Jesus is not for the forgiveness of
sin—It is for healing to be made possible. For without His
broken body, there could be no healing of any kind
(Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:15-18), either before or after
the Cross. This is where many Christians lack discernment.

It is through His shed blood that we find forgiveness, not His broken body (Hebrews 9:22; Leviticus 17:11). And it is
through His stripes (His suffering and torment in the flesh) that we are healed today (Isaiah 53:5; I Peter 2:24).

This is what Pastor Henry Wright says about Healing in Communion. Read this very carefully it may bring some truth and understanding into your life.

“If we come to a Communion service and partake of the
cup and the bread but we deny healing and deliverance
as part of the atonement today, we eliminate the provision
of God in our lives as a human being apart from salvation
and eternal life in that day. For that reason, because we
eliminate the broken body, but we celebrate it, and we
don’t believe it, then we cannot partake. For that reason
many of us are filled with disease and insanity today
because we have said in our heart that it (miraculous
healing) passed away two thousand years ago, yet we
still participate in the sacrament of Communion which
represents its reality for today.”

MAN THAT’S POWERFUL!!!!! I think we need to come back to the basics and just believe what God says in His word. God saved the WHOLE man. Body, soul and spirit.

Be Blessed and Healed.

Comment by Jesus Heals | June 16, 2009
Refference to Jesus heals comment.That is the absolute truth,great response.God Bless you all and keep up the good fight of faith……….

Comment by kc | June 16, 2009
God bless you all brothers and sisters in Christ. I really appreciate the discussions on this site. Quoting 2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”. Sister little Sue, the scripture you are quoting(Matt 24:40, 41) may not be a rapture scripture at all. When you read the chapter, it is discussing death and destruction, primarily the tribulation. The particular verse you used lines up with the amount of deaths foretold in revelations. Half the individuals that go through the tribulation will be killed.

Comment by john | June 17, 2009
When it comes to Perry Stone I have to comment this man is a man with great revelation to the scripture and he backs up everything he says with scripture and not only that he tells you to search things out for yourself. We have too many people that want to criticize especially when we have people that are on fire for God and wants others to know the truth or at least search out for themselves what the Holy Spirit has shown them, the key is wanting to know in sincerity and not looking for something negative . The scriptures are full of information but the Holy Spirit is who opens up the eyes of those who wants to see and the ears of those that wants to hear. Perry Stone is a man on fire for God and I love the work that he is doing! More people need to get about doing what the Father wants us to do. Perry Stone is indept with the Hebrew and Jewish culture I am one to show my support to him !!! People need to stop hating and start searching for revelation which Jesus can give and he uses those which are willing and desire for him to use them and Perry Stone is one with a special calling…Only if you are saved and have a relationship with the Lord can you truly understand what I am saying. Thank You

Comment by Audrey Davis | June 17, 2009
Jesus Heals June 16
“If we come to a communion service and partake of the cup and the bread but we deny healing and deliverance as part of the atonement today, we eliminate the provision of God in our lives as a human being apart from salvation and eternal life in that day.For that reason, because we eliminate the broken body, but we celebrate it , and we don’t believe it, then we cannot partake.For that reason many of us are filled with disease and insanity today because we have said in our heart that it [miraculous healing] passed away two thousand years ago, yet we still paticipate in the sacrament of communion which represents its reality for today.”

MAN THATS POWERFUL!!!! Ithink we need to come back to basics and just believe what God says in His word. God saved the WHOLE man. Body, soul and spirit.
……………….
We do need to come back to basics.
Matthew 26:26
Now as they were eating , Jesus took bread and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples and said,Take ,eat,this is my body.And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them saying ,Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant,which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when i drink it new with you in my Fathers Kingdom.

I don’t know where your Father Henry Wright found this mumbo jumbo , but i do have my suspicions.This is some of the worst theology i have come across, its downright blasphemous!
The Lords Supper was instituted as symbolic of our own death and ressurection in Christ.
Luke 22:19
This is My Body , which is given for you,DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.

Now that IS truly powerful.

Comment by ray | June 18, 2009
Leumas
Read that link,had to give up soon after starting , the worst exegesis i have seen regarding the timing of the rapture. I can’t believe how much basic doctrine flies out the window when folks are trying to validate their eschatology.
How about this passage from Matthew 13:24

He put another parable befor them,saying,The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,but while his men where sleeping , his enemy came and soed weeds among the wheat, and went away.So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, master did you not sow good seed in your field?.How then does it have weeds?.He said to them, an enemy has done this. So the servants said to him, then do you want us to and gather them?. But he said No , lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the harvest time I will tell my reapers,GATHER THE THE WEEDS FIRST AND BIND THEM IN BUNDLES TO BE BURNED, BUT GATHER THE WHEAT IN TO MY BARN.

So that there can be no doubt as to the interpretation of this parable , Jesus provides this in verse 36.
This should eliminate any confusion regarding the rapture of the saints.

Comment by ray | June 18, 2009
Over the years God has shown Henry many insights into why mankind has disease. It is not that God cannot heal, or that de doesn’t want to-the problem is man does not understand disease. Henry says “we have gone into captivity and are perishing because of either lack of knowledge or just no knowledge at all.”

God’s perfect will is not to heal you….His perfect will is that you don’t get sick. Today Henry and his church/ministries stand 100% not for “disease management,” but for “disease eradication and prevention” on a regular basis, if at all possible.

The above two paragraphs were copied and pasted from Journey 2 Wholeness, website of Henry Wright (the errors in spelling–and etc.–are theirs).

Does this man mean that if we have the right “knowledge”, we will never die? Is not death the ultimate disease? Are our true rewards not future as Christians? Is the total of our reward to be had in this fallen world, or do we not look for the one to come? If I trust in Christ Jesus alone for redemption, for salvation, and, empowered by the Holy Spirit, follow Him outside the camp forsaking self and the world, believing God for His eternal promise secured through His Son for all whom He would draw to Him–and then develope heart disease at 60 years old–am I to lose then my assurance in the goodness of God and the ultimate purpose (even in this fallen world of disease and death) of our Father in heaven Who works all things according to the counsel of His will? If we cannot believe God no matter our circumstances here, we do not believe Him at all. Any teaching that may cause us to focus upon personal, temporal rewards here in the dust and mud instead of upon the One who has promised and upon the One who has done all our works for us and upon the One who empowers us “for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” is so near-sighted as to be blind.

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13,14

“Until we acquire possession of it.” What is this inheritance that we do not have now, but are promised to possess it to the praise of His glory? Can anything seperate us from it?

“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
‘For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:35-39

Does sickness or disease seperate us from the love of God?
No! Christians are more than conquerors, because God turns everything—even suffering and death—into good.

Man! Now that is POWERFUL, for it is not man’s words nor man’s interpretation–it is the Word of God! Salvation belongs to the Lord!

Keep yourselves from idols. Beware the idol of self.

Grace be to all who love the Lord Jesus Christ with love incorruptible.

Comment by NOTW67 | June 18, 2009
I believe Perry is a good man. I don’t agree with everything, but who does agree 100% of the time with any other Christian. I know has spent more hours studying God’s word than most of us will ever hope to. I for one tried taking communion for health. One day my daughter, Mother, and I took communion together and prayed for my Mother’s bad back. The most amazing thing happened. Not only did my MOther’s back suddenly become pain free my daughter and I at the same time suddenly felt our backs straighten up. It was crazy. We hadn’t even thought of our own backs. We were suddenly standing straighter.

Another time my brother almost died of a stroke. The doctor had given him less than a 20% chance to live. The hospital chaplain had given him his last rights. Several of us did communion in the hospital on his behalf. I could feel God’s presence so strong. After I did the communion I had a peace that he would be okay. He miraculously survived. In fact that night he came out of the coma he had been in for several days.

I think there is scripture to back up communion also healing or improving your health. I also believe that there are layers of revelation in the scripture. There is the apparant meaning and the deeper meanings that are the precious pearl you have to dig for to find.
I also think alot can be learned from studying Hebraic roots. Start with the Holy days and SabbaTH. it’s amazing how most Christians do the traditions of men without actually studying and praying about what Yeshua actually taught. Be careful about throwing stones. YOu may not have it all right yourself.

Comment by Lisa | June 19, 2009
Wow. Just went back and read through the postings here. And I feel like I’ve been standing in the back of a church somewhere in Corinth, like the one Paul planted (Acts 18). You know that one floundered under the influences of sexual immorality, religious diversity, and corruption.

So Paul writes a letter to “the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours,” and then he gives thanks that God has richly blessed the Corinthians with speech, knowledge, and spiritual gifts (which he implies are given as temporary provisions until Christ returns–v1:7; see 13:10), also knowing that these believers have a long way to go before their behavior matches their status before God (1 Cor. 3:2–3a), but still he is confident that God, who is faithful, will make them what they should be.

Then Paul launches right into a primary concern: the Corinthians’ pride has led them to value outward appearance and eloquence over the genuine work of the Spirit. These people are exhibiting a haughty devotion to different itinerant preachers. Having been “brought in”, let us say, by the gospel, they now seek more–so as to inadvertantly leave the gospel behind. They want “super apostles” “with words of eloquent wisdom.” The art of rhetorical persuasion is so highly valued, and so many love professional orators who give impressive displays of their ability to entertain and instruct that they fail to see that such “wisdom” may serve to “empty” the cross of Christ of its power. And what does that mean? That the proclamation of the gospel seems to fail to meet up to the standards of “worldly wisdom”–even that which comes in the guise of religion–for let us remember that these preachers laid claim to Christ. But that failure serves to place the spotlight on the power of the message itself (see also 2:1–5), for the Holy Spirit so empowered Paul’s words that they awakened faith in Christ (cf. James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23–25) and changed people’s very hearts and lives.

Paul’s preaching in Corinth focused on the saving fact of Christ’s crucifixion, though he spoke of the many facets of the message. The Corinthians’ fascination with the rhetorical ability of the ministers rather than their message demonstrated that they were living contrary to the power of the cross. The Corinthians valued especially the gifts of speech and knowledge (see 8:1–3, 10; 12:8; 13:2; 14:1–40), but because they had used these gifts in wrong and improper ways, the exercise of the gifts led to disunity (8:1–3; 12:29–30; 14:4).

“Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified.” A crucified Messiah was offensive to an unbelieving Jew (Matt. 16:22; Gal. 3:13; 5:11), and nonsensical to an unbelieving Greek. God’s power to call forth his people, however, works through a deeper wisdom than human beings can recognize (unless God grants them faith). Paul writes that the gospel is preached to all (1 Cor. 1:23), but God calls some effectively to salvation from among both Jews and Greeks (v. 24). God’s transformation of these into his people (by choosing them to be saved) in spite of their humanly unimpressive pedigree excludes all boasting in ancestry, accomplishment, or affiliation with one preacher or another (see also 3:21–22).

So what answers the problem? The divisions can be healed if we, like the Corinthians, could see the distinction between the world’s wisdom and God’s wisdom. God’s wisdom is displayed in the message of the cross, the calling of His people, the preaching of His people, and the wisdom from the Spirit. We, like the Corinthians, need to center our lives on the gospel, not on the various preachers in whom we can take pride. For “even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?” “Are you not being merely human?” Although the Corinthians are Christians indwelt by the Spirit, their divisive behavior shows that they are acting like the unbelieving world around them. You are not yet ready, says Paul, meaning that he thinks it is unhelpful and dangerous to give advanced teaching to Christians who were morally and spiritually immature and proud. “Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.” Arrogance is at the root of the divisiveness in Corinth (4:6–I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.) “So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.”

Who here can claim to have expended the riches and depth of the gospel? Having not done so, what claim do we as disciples of Christ have upon the need for the “wisdom” of extra-biblical writings and teachings? Let us remember that “there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized”, vll:18. Let us then center our lives upon the gospel, and gently guide back those who stray from the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, and beware those who propose to teach us that which does not stand in the Light of the Cross.

And for those above who claim this man is “anointed.” Is this some pedestal you place this “teacher” upon? There is one Annointed One, and through Him by the Holy Spirit and the preaching of the gospel message are all of God’s children anointed. “But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge,” 1John 2:20. All true Christians have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, beloved, not merely your favorite “teachers”. Then see verse 27: that this “anointing” abides implies that Christians have the resources to discern doctrinal error. And John says we have “no need that anyone should teach” us. Yet by writing this letter, John is obviously teaching them. He means, rather, that we have no need for any instruction that diverges from the gospel message. Does your favorite teacher do so? Is the “anointing” then abiding in him? The Holy Bible says no.

Beloved, time is short. We each face a death and then comes judgement. Let us not presume upon the grace of God.
God has graciously revealed to us all we need in His precious Word. Let us not be found straying after
“knowledge” from any other source, nor placing the emphasis on one man or another.

“Because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, ‘Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.’”

marana tha!

Comment by NOTW67 | June 19, 2009
Little Sue,

You stated
” One other area: I believe that Jesus did speak of the rapture. In Matthew he said, “As the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man” Matt 24:37 “At that time two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken and one will be left.” Matt 24:40, 41. (One will be taken where? One will be left where?) I believe that one will be taken in the rapture, one will be left behind.”

Vs. 37-39 explains that those that were “taken” were the wicked. Also, in Noah’s day it was the wicked that had their lives “taken” in the flood. Noah and his family were preserved and protected on the earth.

Luke 17:26-37 also tells this saying of Yeshua(Jesus). Please read the whole passage. In verse 37, his diciples ask Yeshua (Jesus) the very same question you posed: “Where, Lord?” They wanted to know where all those that were “taken” went to. And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.” Compare that with Rev 19, particuliary vs 17. Do you wan to be taken there? I don’t.

Check out this article:
http://www.tnnonline.net/tribnews/eschatology/taken/index.html

Be Blessed, Renee

Comment by Renee | June 22, 2009
Just a side note:

The fourth post up from this one (count this one) has a comment by kc (lower case letters) – this kc is not me – me is KC (capital letters). So where it says…..Comment by KC – its me. If this gets too confusing, I will change my name. Not saying I disagree with the comment, just wanted to let those know who might have been following these posts.

By the way, I recently got back from a conference that Brother Perry was doing – it was great. Not because it was free admission, not because little time was spent on taking up the offering but because how much word was taught along with church history and secular history.

In regards to 2 Thessalonians who can be the “he” in verse 7. Some say Michael could be the he (the he that is taken out of the way) because of what Daniel 12:1 says. The question then is how could Michael stand up for Israel at the same time he (Michael) is taken out of the way? Some say the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. This would seem very unlikely since the Holy Spirit is the convincer (reprover) of sin – this will draw the lost to the saving power of Jesus. Some say it is the church that is taken out of the way i.e. rapture. This would seem correct. Then the question would be asked as someone on here did – how could it be the church if the church is describe as a bride (i.e. she)? If the church is raptured out and the Holy Spirit indwells the church then it would make since that verse 7 in regards to “he” be taken out of the way would be the church indwelt with the Holy Spirit (he). Again, this does not mean the Holy Spirit as a whole as departed. Then the question arises wouldn’t the Holy Spirit be a capital H (He) and not a lower h (he)? The answer is no because in other scripture (i.e John 16:13) it shows the Holy Spirit in lower case h (he). Then some say well it couldn’t be the church because the church has not held back iniquity. On one hand, yes the church has failed but on the other hand the church has not failed. Can the church do better – Absoluety. So the question remains could the church be the restrainer of iniquity? I will answer with a couple of questions/statements. Imagine, if there wasn’t a “church” – where would we as a society be in regards to iniquity? If we think its bad now – what would it be like (already) without a “church” on this earth? Just a thought – any comments are welcomed.

Blessings
kc (KC)

Comment by KC | June 22, 2009
To Everyone

Lisa said:
I believe Perry is a good man. I don’t agree with everything, but who does agree 100% of the time with any other Christian. I know has spent more hours studying God’s word than most of us will ever hope to. I for one tried taking communion for health. One day my daughter, Mother, and I took communion together and prayed for my Mother’s bad back. The most amazing thing happened. Not only did my MOther’s back suddenly become pain free my daughter and I at the same time suddenly felt our backs straighten up. It was crazy. We hadn’t even thought of our own backs. We were suddenly standing straighter.

Another time my brother almost died of a stroke. The doctor had given him less than a 20% chance to live. The hospital chaplain had given him his last rights. Several of us did communion in the hospital on his behalf. I could feel God’s presence so strong. After I did the communion I had a peace that he would be okay. He miraculously survived. In fact that night he came out of the coma he had been in for several days.

I think there is scripture to back up communion also healing or improving your health. I also believe that there are layers of revelation in the scripture. There is the apparant meaning and the deeper meanings that are the precious pearl you have to dig for to find.
I also think alot can be learned from studying Hebraic roots. Start with the Holy days and SabbaTH. it’s amazing how most Christians do the traditions of men without actually studying and praying about what Yeshua actually taught. Be careful about throwing stones. YOu may not have it all right yourself.

______________________________

This is an example of faith WITH works. She believed healing was in Communion, she acted upon THE TRUTH (the word of God) and as a result her mom and brother were healed . Now, how can you debate that Christs healing is in communion if she experienced it in reality and through faith?? That would be like a scientist finding a cure for cancer and having actual PROOF and someone saying NOPE, their is no cure. My knowledge (what I think I know) exceeds reality (actual PROOF). Thats just crazy. All of you here who dont believe in communion just got a confirmation that healing is in the atonement. I know some of you are thinking..well what if Lisa isn’t saved, or what if Lisa is lying, or well what if Lisa did this or that. No the fact is she took communion and saw 2 healings take place. Can this subject be disputed any longer?? WE MUST act on the word of God before we can say something about the Word of God. If you never took communion for healing how can you say that it doesn’t work? Again, that would be like saying “Aspirin doesn’t work.” “Oh, have you ever tried it.” “No I’ve never taken aspirin, but it doesn’t work.” Do you see what I’m saying. We MUST first ACT on the Word before we can cast down all doubts. Our belief of what we think the Word of God says and how we act on the Word of God are two totally different things. One is a hearer of the Word. The other is a ‘doer’ of the Word. And not just healing, I’m talking about everything concerning the Christian walk. Sin,sanctification, faith, love, hope etc…
If the Bible says to not be drunk with wine and I read it and say “Wow thats a powerful verse, but don’t act on that verse, that makes me a hearer.” But if I say “wow thats a powerful verse and begin to not get drunk with wine”, well then I’m a doer of the Word.

We CANNOT change scripture to fit our lack of experience. “but so and so didn’t get healed, so healing isn’t for today” Does one person not being healed validate healing for all??
She’s right about the traditions of men, we just need to believe the whole word of GOD.

Comment by Jesus Heals | June 23, 2009
NOTW67

I like what you said. But I want to throw one little thing in. I want to say that our ultimate goal is heaven absolutely. But at the same time I want to say that God wants us victorious NOW. In every aspect of our lives. Not just in the ’sweet by and by.’ He wants the best for us NOW in this life. We are not defeated we have the living God on our side.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

You see that. As HE is, so are WE IN THIS WORLD. How is Jesus now? Victorious, glorious, resurrected, Holy, Righteous. Well, as HE is SO ARE WE in this World, RIGHT NOW. Does Christ have any lack? Of course not, as HE is so are WE in THIS world. And I’m dont mean materialistic prosperity, I mean provision from God.

NOTW67, I see that you love God and are sincere. God bless you. I dont know if it was me but you seemed to say that we as Christians are defeated in this world of sin, and that as such awful sinners we can’t approach such a Holy God. We are victorious because the life in Christ set us free from the law of SIN and death. We are no longer bound by sin, in which we can truly taste freedom. As Christians we can come boldly before the throne of Grace and we should not fear the judgement of God because Christ took our punishment. That doesn’t mean that we should sin freely I’m not saying that. But I’m saying Christ took our punishment that we rightly deserved so we should not fear the judgement of God, rather we should look forward to it, because there we receive the rewards that Paul talked about.

Be blessed

Comment by Jesus Heals | June 23, 2009
Brother John, thank you for responding. When Jesus comes for the Rapture it will be sudden and swift, just as it was when the flood came upon all the inhabitants in Noah’s time and all perished except Noah and his family. That, I believe is why Jesus stated that comparison–people will be no different then they were during the time of Noah. Not believing, not trusting the Lord, engaging in all areas of sin, etc.

I believe in the verses that I mentioned Jesus is telling that when he comes for those who have believed in Him as the Saviour whose blood cleanses, the believers will be taken, those who do not believe will be left to face the tribulation. Because of the events of the Tribulation and the fact so many disappeared, will be cause for many to rethink their beliefs and come to the understanding that Jesus is indeed Lord and His blood cleanses.

Why? Because God is merciful, AND God rewards those who follow his teachings. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross is a GIFT freely given, and yet many do not accept the gift.

I agree with you, many will be killed, and many martyred because of their faith. But many will be spared going through that judgement because they have believed and accepted what God has freely given.

Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know in what kind of a day your Lord is coming.”

Otherwise, what is the purpose of Paul’s mysterious passages in two different places? It must have been extremely important or he wouldn’t have repeated himself. I Corinthians 15:51,52 and again in I Thessalonians 4: 15-18.

That is what I believe. Thank you for your insight and for responding to me.

I also say again, there are some awesome discussions here.

Little Sue

Comment by Little Sue | June 24, 2009
The Pretrib Rapture is a matter of Faith. Just as our redemption and salvation was recieved by Faith. Everything is recieved by faith. There are those who are staying for the tribulation by faith. There are some who by faith are going to hear His voice and the Trump of God and will be raptured and will escape all these things!
(Luke 21:36)

(note timeline: Here Jesus is still called the Son of Man see Revelation 19:15-17 He is called KING OF KINGS! also Luke21:36 He is still called the Son of man. This refers to the time before He is crowned King of Kings before the nations,and the government is upon His shoulders
Isaiah 9:6&7 (King James Version)

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

At His coming to set foot on the Mt. of Olives,after the trib (not in the AIR 1Thess.4:17)

Matthew 24:39 (King James Version)

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all AWAY (see concordance note) ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

CONCORDANCE
AWAY:
ai[rw a primary root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Airo 1:185,28
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ah’-ee-ro Verb

Definition
1.to raise up, elevate, lift up
a.to raise from the ground, take up: stones
b.to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
c.to draw up: a fish
2.to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3.to bear away what has been raised, carry off
a.to move from its place
b.to take off or away what is attached to anything
c.to remove
d.to carry off, carry away with one
e.to appropriate what is taken
f.to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
g.to take and apply to any use

(Luke 21:36)
“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the *Son of man.*”

Those who are “accounted worthy to escape” that day, which will fall as a snare upon all who dwell on the earth, will also be spared the temptation of the strong delusion of
II Thessalonians 2:11. Jesus prophesied to these, His elect: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. *Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. “* (Rev. 3:10)

1 Peter 5:4 (King James Version)

4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

The elders of these elect are seen in the next chapter of Revelation, casting their crowns of gold before the Throne of the Lamb, before the Tribulation begins.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (King James Version)

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The Pretrib rapture is a matter of Faith a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:7-9 (King James Version)

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: that is the gift of God.
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Comment by born to praze | June 26, 2009
This is as good a place as any to start …
Perry Stone is a Luciferian.
What he teaches is poison.
Too long to make an argument …
but I know that he is a liar.

Comment by Abigail | June 28, 2009
Miriam,

My advice would be to ignore people like Javanut. Same old same old: “Don’t get so paranoid…Not everyone is out to get you…” This is done to try and change the discussion from Perry Stone to you. I’m not saying Javanut isn’t a Christian, but this kind of stuff is typical of non-Christians, and liberals in general.

How many times have I seen this and things similar to it.

You (and others) can try their best to be faithful Bereans, and you see attempts to try and stymie today what the Bereans did then – research and investigation into what someone was teaching and preaching (namely Paul the Apostle).

Paul the Apostle didn’t try to stymie the Bereans, though. How many times have I seen people say things like “You aren’t doing what you are doing in love,” or “you are being judgemental,” or “you are digging where you shouldn’t be digging,” or “you are being hateful,” and so on. It is all done with the intent of derailing discussion and inquiry and to provide cover that potentially false ministers can hide behind. Every preacher should be fully investigated regarding what they preach and teach.

And no one should try to stymie this, given that there might potentially be false doctrine being taught, and if so, it needs to be ferreted out.

We are to inquire, investigate and dig to find out what people are teaching – no preacher or teacher is above this.

Paul the Apostle would never hinder anyone digging and researching to see what he was teaching.

Comment by Ray | July 2, 2009
Perry Stone is a very anointed preacher, who equips the body of Christ with a now annointed word. Definately he shows himself approve at the moment of bringing a teaching, he wastes no time. There are many books from the rabbis which are not translated to english and he gets terrific information for us to learn more about the time and jewish culture. The annointing is very heavy over this man of God and his teachings are not for people that drink milk that is a fact. I pray that the Lord will keep blessing him in a mighty way, so we that listen to him may be blessed as well.

Comment by W Conde | July 2, 2009
Abigail .. what in the world is a Luciferian in your perspective? And how is Perry Stone such an obviously warped character?

Comment by rev rafael | July 2, 2009
I have read most of the comments on here and can only speak from my personal expirences about Perry Stone. I have watched some of his tapes and went to one of his conferances. Perry prayed over me personally and I firmly believe god answered Perry’s prayer about me. Some of what Perry says is a little strange to me but I don’t claim to know everything. Whenever Before I listen to a minister, I pray that God will help me to learn what I need to learn from that person. That he will give me the spirit of discernment to tell the good from the bad. I trust fully in God the he will protect my mind from false teachings as he has done my whole life. If it’s God’s will I hope to go to Isreal with Perry This November. On another note, for anyone interested I like the teachings of Pastor Paul Shepard as well. If you want straight teaching with no holding back from the Bible, then give Pastor Paul a listen. All his messages I have listened to he uses real life examples that are very easy to understand.In short, he teaches the Bible, the whole Bible and nothing but the Bible. Thanks for listening and I pray god”s will will be done in all our lives.

Comment by Lance | July 6, 2009
The Bible says that in the end-times there will be many false prophets. There are so many people on television and locally who deem themselves prophets? How can there be so many prophets? Who gives them that title? Why are so many of them video tapping their “healings” and their miracles? How do these miracles seem to happen on cue?
I remember reading about several major and several minor prophets in the Bible—and it was God that announced their prophetic calling–not they themselves.
This is all getting a bit much, and it makes me leery of any prophets. Who is telling the truth? Why are they so self=promoting? Why would the church not go through tribulation? Church history shows the church always suffering under persecution—why is the present church exempt? Is just the Western Church exempt? The African and Chinese church is certainly suffering? And what about “once saved always saved?” Jesus tells us in Revelation that a name can be “erased” from the book of life.
If true prophets do exist—they wouldn’t run around telling everyone they were prophetic, and they wouldn’t be so keen on promoting themselves.
This is a strange and difficult time to discern between right and wrong. I think we’d better spend an extraordinary time with the Holy Spirit–getting intimate with Him—or else we will be deceived!

Comment by PJR | July 12, 2009
I became acquinted with Perry’s teachings around the year 2000, when I watched him on TV and then ordered some of his videos. I found his teachings to be revolutionary to say the least! Since that time I followed his teachings and now have a library full of his material. I’m very excited each time I get to hear him, and I’ve found everything I’ve heard from him to be right on the track with scripture. Simply put, Perry has been the most influencial bible teacher in my life up to this point! I am 40 years old, and I’ve been around the block a few times when it comes to different doctrines and beliefs and even denominations. I’m not ignorant of other views on doctrine, and I always try to listen and understand before adopting a certain stance. I’ve read many of the posts here, but all I have to say about it is that I plan on making the rapture “pre-tribulation style”. For those of you that don’t believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, then I’ll be seeing you seven years later. I don’t think I would want to experience all of that though.

Comment by mebejammin | July 15, 2009
Perry has said several times that preachers, and teachers call him a heretic for what he himself teaches… 10 years later they end up teaching the same thing they called him a heretic for.

Be careful about what you say about the man of God.

Comment by Anon | July 15, 2009
And let’s not forget, he said on national TV that Bush would be the president… he even said it to Bush’s face in Israel before Bush had even thought about running. He said, “I’m actually planning on running another term as governor of Texas.”

Comment by Anon | July 15, 2009
There are many arguments back and forth about Perry Stone. I have met him and spoken with him personally. My experience was not one in which I left feeling good. After helping him and his staff load all the props he sets up on stage I approached to ask him a few simple questions concerning his teaching that night. His response–buy my book. Of course I was offended, but also understand he was very tired and had other things on his mind because he was leaving the nest day on a long trip. I have grown up believing the pretrib rapture and that I would not have to face the wrath of God, and still to this day I believe I wont. Just as God delivered Noah and Lot from the destruction that was occurring all around them, he will do the same for me during the great time of tribulation. Two points I’d like to make about the “rapture.” 1)The parable of the “wheat and the tares” is told to show in what order the events are to take place. What does it show? That the wicked are taken first, not the righteous. The righteous are gathered last. 2)This is backed up with Luke 17:34-37 (34;I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35; Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left. 36; Two men shall be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.) I’ve heard this scripture since I was a child and it has been explained to me as, “You see, this is evidence of the rapture.” However, they never read the very next verse, the last verse in chapter 17. verse 37 (37; “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”) What?! That’s right. The discipels asked Jesus what happened to those who were taken and his response is astounding. Those that are taken in this passage of scripture are taken to destruction–not everlasting life. Now, does your salvation depend on whether you believe the way I do or not? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Don’t be absurd to think that way. My salvation, your salvation depends on one thing, the relationship we have been given with our Heavenly Father through the blood of Jesus Christ. So what’s the most important thing Jesus taught about end time events? That when He does return, He finds us going about doing the Father’s work–telling the good news of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and loving our neighbor as ourselves. I do not agree with Perry Stone and his message of end time events. I do however know he teaches Jesus as the Christ and that those teachings are powerful and have impacted my life. So, I do not judge him as being a “heretic,” but extend to him love in Christ.

Comment by Gene | July 16, 2009
love God and spreading of his gospel commision

Comment by Mike Wally | July 18, 2009
http://www.persecution.net/

Hello all. I have been out of church now for 9 years,have now started attending a church of god (Pentecost) Any way they are very “pre-trib) All I can say is this, as Americans we are so @#@ spoiled that we refuse to see tribulation has started, or are we so ignorant as to think we in America are the only Christians on this earth??? The church is not appointed to wrath? does the church exist in any other country? Just because they haven’t arrived here yet, or at least that we are all aware of, the rest of this planet and all the other 2 BILLION christens around this world are definitely in serious times of TROUBLE That have never been since the biginning. Why have these Christians not been RUPTURED ??? How has the ENEMY Made war with them? yet they are still being killed every day all day long For the name of Christ and we do nothing but argue over if the lord will come before We see any suffering, how long will they suffer for the LORD? WOE unto us in the US for the judgment is soon upon us. pray now for us that he may show us mercy, and that we may be hid in that day.

Somalia: Christian’s Sons Beheaded
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Islamic extremists have beheaded two boys in Somalia because their Christian father, 55 year-old Musa Mohammed Yusuf, refused to give them information about an underground church leader, according to Compass Direct News.

The extremists from the group al shabaab killed 11 year-old Abdi Rahaman Musa Yusuf and 12 year-old Hussein Musa Yusuf, after abducting them in front of their mother. The terrorists are currently looking for Yusuf in Kenyan refugee camps.

Yusuf was a leader of an underground church in Yonday village, 19 miles from Kismayo, Somalia. On February 20, the extremists interrogated Yusuf about his relationship with Salat Mberwa, the Christian leader who discipled him in the faith and led an underground fellowship with 66 believers. When Yusuf told them he did not have any connection to him and knew nothing about him, they left and vowed to return the next day. Yusuf fled immediately and the next day the extremists killed his sons.

Yusuf’s wife and 7-year-old son have joined him in the refugee camp in Kenya where Mberwa and other believers are helping them. VOM encourages you to pray for Yusuf and his family as they have lost their sons. Pray God comforts them during this difficult time, and provides the family with other believers who can encourage them with scriptures and songs.

Pakistan: Christian Homes Burned
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On June 26, more than 150 Muslim extremists launched a devastating attack on more than 150 Christian families after a fight about a personal matter between Muslims and Christians occurred three days earlier.

During the attack Muslims damaged 60 houses, including burning 16 to the ground, poured kerosene on a believer in an attempt to burn her, destroyed two donkey carts and broke 25 electricity meters, in Kasur, Pakistan, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts.

“They disgraced many Christian women, “VOM contacts said. “They tried to burn one of the ladies by throwing kerosene oil on her. Thanks God she was able to escape from them. One of the young girls was having bath, she escaped without her cloths when they attacked.”

The Voice of the Martyrs supports persecuted believers in Pakistan by distributing Action Packs, Bibles, and the books Triumphant Church and He Lived Among Us. VOM encourages you to pray for these families that have lost their homes and had their property damaged. Ask God to encourage and protect them during this difficult time. Yemen: Christians killed
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On June 12, nine Christian relief workers were abducted and three killed, reportedly because they were suspected of being involved in evangelistic work, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts.

The Christians left the city of Sa’ada without an armed escort to visit a doctor who lived nearby, according to reports. The believers left the doctor’s home after two hours and eyewitnesses saw a group of armed men stop them. Investigators believe the kidnappers executed three of the hostages a short time later. At last report the other relief workers are still being held hostage and have been handed over to tribesmen.

Two suspects have surrendered themselves to Yemeni authorities and have been arrested. It is also reported that local imams in the area were concerned some of the relief workers were involved in evangelism while providing medical aid. Media reports indicate the Christians claim the Yemeni government is looking for the killers although they also say they had “requested them not to travel outside their area of work.”

The Voice of the Martyrs encourages you to pray for the families of the deceased believers and protection for those who have been kidnapped. Thank God for the faithful lives and work of those killed. Pray that the remaining hostages will be released. Ask God to fill those in mourning with a peace that surpasses understanding in the midst of their grief. Pray for endurance and wisdom for those serving the Lord in Yemen Wake up Here are just a few examples,
Somalia: Christian’s Sons Beheaded
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Islamic extremists have beheaded two boys in Somalia because their Christian father, 55 year-old Musa Mohammed Yusuf, refused to give them information about an underground church leader, according to Compass Direct News.

The extremists from the group al shabaab killed 11 year-old Abdi Rahaman Musa Yusuf and 12 year-old Hussein Musa Yusuf, after abducting them in front of their mother. The terrorists are currently looking for Yusuf in Kenyan refugee camps.

Yusuf was a leader of an underground church in Yonday village, 19 miles from Kismayo, Somalia. On February 20, the extremists interrogated Yusuf about his relationship with Salat Mberwa, the Christian leader who discipled him in the faith and led an underground fellowship with 66 believers. When Yusuf told them he did not have any connection to him and knew nothing about him, they left and vowed to return the next day. Yusuf fled immediately and the next day the extremists killed his sons.

Yusuf’s wife and 7-year-old son have joined him in the refugee camp in Kenya where Mberwa and other believers are helping them. VOM encourages you to pray for Yusuf and his family as they have lost their sons. Pray God comforts them during this difficult time, and provides the family with other believers who can encourage them with scriptures and songs.

Pakistan: Christian Homes Burned
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no media
On June 26, more than 150 Muslim extremists launched a devastating attack on more than 150 Christian families after a fight about a personal matter between Muslims and Christians occurred three days earlier.

During the attack Muslims damaged 60 houses, including burning 16 to the ground, poured kerosene on a believer in an attempt to burn her, destroyed two donkey carts and broke 25 electricity meters, in Kasur, Pakistan, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts.

“They disgraced many Christian women, “VOM contacts said. “They tried to burn one of the ladies by throwing kerosene oil on her. Thanks God she was able to escape from them. One of the young girls was having bath, she escaped without her cloths when they attacked.”

The Voice of the Martyrs supports persecuted believers in Pakistan by distributing Action Packs, Bibles, and the books Triumphant Church and He Lived Among Us. VOM encourages you to pray for these families that have lost their homes and had their property damaged. Ask God to encourage and protect them during this difficult time. Yemen: Christians killed
print story download (PDF) email story
share
no media
On June 12, nine Christian relief workers were abducted and three killed, reportedly because they were suspected of being involved in evangelistic work, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts.

The Christians left the city of Sa’ada without an armed escort to visit a doctor who lived nearby, according to reports. The believers left the doctor’s home after two hours and eyewitnesses saw a group of armed men stop them. Investigators believe the kidnappers executed three of the hostages a short time later. At last report the other relief workers are still being held hostage and have been handed over to tribesmen.

Two suspects have surrendered themselves to Yemeni authorities and have been arrested. It is also reported that local imams in the area were concerned some of the relief workers were involved in evangelism while providing medical aid. Media reports indicate the Christians claim the Yemeni government is looking for the killers although they also say they had “requested them not to travel outside their area of work.”

The Voice of the Martyrs encourages you to pray for the families of the deceased believers and protection for those who have been kidnapped. Thank God for the faithful lives and work of those killed. Pray that the remaining hostages will be released. Ask God to fill those in mourning with a peace that surpasses understanding in the midst of their grief. Pray for endurance and wisdom for those serving the Lord in Yemen

Comment by Mickael | July 25, 2009
i would like to comment on the article in regard to Perry Stone and communion. Christ said this do in rememberance of me.Look in the o.t. and the passover regulations note the similarity. I feel it is ment as a point of contact in activation of the faith, and perry stone is coming into agreement with you for your need. Where 2 or more gather in my name I am in their midst.About the use of judaism,and jewish feasts,customs, etc.Christ came to save the jews, the apple of gods eye,but through his infinite mercy,christs death, we were grafted in to the jewish family,and with that comes all the promises God made to Abraham and his decendants(the jewish people). Judaism thus has a major role in the learing and transformation from glory to glory that we undergo. Judaism is also a wealth of knowlege when trying to understand the context of scripture,as it was written by jews. How could it not be important when our savior is a jew. The jews failed to recognize christ, the stone the builders rejected,that turned out being the capstone, as God blinded them to it that the gentiles might become part of his family. Also o.t. scripture says that all of the Jewish feasts, and rituals he,Yahweh, instructed them to practice,will be practiced perpetually in heaven.As will the temple be present. The temple jews built on earth was an exact replica of the heavenly temple.With deeper study it is undeniable that the o.t. jewish feast,and rituals including the tabernacle and it various furnishings,and the different rituals performed as approaching the holy place, and then for the levites, the holy of holies where the ark, and gods prescence as he stated dwelt between the cheribum atop the ark.All these things forshadow the birth,death, and ressurection of christ.as example, after christs death, scripture says he went into the temple that was not built by human hands, entered the holy of holies, sprinkling his blood on the ark in heaven which not just caused the remitance of sin but the removal of sin. Without knowlege of the temple customs,and sacrific of animals in o.t. times,and that the blood of animals was used as god instructed, and sprinkled on the ark that contained the law,Thus god allknowing, didnt give their just punishment as he knew his plan of redemption even before the foundations of the earth.not knowing the jews were replecating christ and his shed blood, but as a sinless and acceptable sacrifice his blood on the ark in heavens tabernacle didnt cover but removed sin past present future.this just scratches the surface on the importance of judaism, and the foreshadowing of christ and redemption that are found in jewish feasts and ritual. get used to the feasts as god says they will be observed perpetually in heaven.As with any preacher you need to reference what they say against the bible. Take whats biblically sound, and leave the rest.In my experience however Perry Stone will state if something is just a belief of his, and all other teachings are backed up by scripture

Comment by jordan | July 30, 2009
I have listened to Perry Stone ever since coming to Christ in 2006 and I do what every Christian should do: Filter everything through the Word of God in my own study. While I understand no man is perfect, Perry Stone is in line with scripture. He may have a slant toward jewish tradition and hebraic study, but that is just his teaching method and foundation. I do not think many of you posting replies to this blog have been to Israel more than 25 times like Perry has and also sat a talked in depth with jewish rabbis have you? Depending on your level of understanding of things like the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, Perry is from the Church of God denomination which makes him a charismatic pentecostal preacher. Those people who may be of non-charismatic/pentecostal background will automatically have a problem with him in some respects. I know because they have a problem with me. Everything is fine up until they find out what kind of church I go to. That just shows how denomination divides the body of Christ. Anyhow, I remember watching Perry Stone and he made this point in relation to having the correct view on the rapture: “Plan like Jesus is not coming for a long time, but live like He could come today”. I continue to listen to Perry Stone but he is one of the very few I do listen to when it comes to teaching on the rapture. Pre-trib? Mid-trib? who cares…as long as it happens and my lamp is full of Oil. I do not plan on being a “foolish virgin” if the Lord Jesus Christ returns in my lifetime, I can tell you that with certainty. The bottom line is this, if the Lord Jesus Christ tarries, stay in Christ and in His Word and continue fighting the good fight of faith pressing on towrd the mark! Watch and pray that you may be counted worthy to escape these things….

Comment by Elijah's Mantle | July 31, 2009
Many are quick to judge here,BUT JESUS was appointed by God the Father to be JUDGE…not any of us!IF a man preachs/teachs Christ…coming in the flesh, being crucified,and being raised from death into life, and that the BLOOD OF CHRIST was/is for the remission of sins…that man surely is from God! Perry DOES!”he who is not against us, is FOR US.” Please do not think of yourself as so righteous that you believe Jehovah God made YOU judge. READ God’s word, to see what HE says about those who wrongfully accuse one of God’s chosen ones. I truely don’t believe ANY of us wants to be on the wrong side of that!!!! If you don’t agree with Perry’s teachings, don’t listen. No man is perfect, we all sin and make mistakes! As Jesus stated “let he that is without sin, cast the first stone.” no one could! Search your OWN heart first…judge not by your mind or “feelings” let the Holy Spirit descern that which is truth..that is His purpose! again. do NOT be so quick to judge, judge a ministry by its FRUITS. IF it is NOT of God, it will fail…
God Himself will see to it! Preach on brother Perry!!!!!!!

Comment by David | August 1, 2009
I would humbly direct brother David in relation to this statement …”Many are quick to judge here,BUT JESUS was appointed by God the Father to be JUDGE…not any of us!”… to study like the Bereans and to scriptures, both old and new testaments…we are to judge in righteousness and truth…..if someone is preaching heresy then we are to judge them and have nothing to do with them..let them be anathema(accursed)…the apostle Paul did the very same thing….as long as it is done according to Biblical scripture and not “feelings” it is right to judge a man by the words he speaks in relation to the preaching and teaching of God’s Word. You will know them by their fruit.

Zechariah 7:8-10 (King James Version)

8 And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying,

9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

John 7:24 (King James Version)

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Galatians 1:8-10 (King James Version)

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Comment by Elijah's Mantle | August 1, 2009
This is a recent post of the Slaughter of the Sheep blog site. For those who throw up the old “Judge not least ye be judged” defense my only reply is: twist not scripture lest ye be like satan and read this:

For Those Who Continue to Say “Judge Not” – Slaughter of the Sheep Blog Post

If I had a nickel for every time someone has said to me, “Judge not,” I’d be rich enough to build a million dollar mansion by the lake by now.
For those who still don’t understand this subject, let me give you a passage of Scripture that blasts the whole “Judge not” fallacy straight into oblivion. I’ll even underline some key points just in case you miss it…
1 Corinthians Chapter 5
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges.
REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Many will tell you we are not to judge. So, the answer is really simple, I won’t listen to the “many,” I’ll listen to God’s Word. Keep right on judging, folks. It’s how we identify error and stay clear of it.

Comment by Elijah's Mantle | August 2, 2009
RE ‘purification of the saints’, Javanut wrote:

my reply: “Many shall be purified, and made white,and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. [Dan 12:10] This is a reference to end time persecution of the saints on earth. Both Daniel and Revelation speak to the end time, and what occurs both to the world and to believers. At least, this is what has been and is commonly taught in majority of evangelistic and mainline protestant denominations for many centuries. Of course it can be argued that just because it’s been taught, doesn’t make it correct.

RE the Restrainer:

Comment by Javanut | December 31, 2008 : “First the Restrainer has to be removed. Then the Antichrist is revealed – after we are gone.”

My reply: Many believe and likewise teach that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Don’t think this can be, or else the remnant of Jews being left after the supposed pre-Trib rapture, could not get saved. Why? Because the Holy spirit has to be at work in order for anyone to get saved. Even if there’s no Pre-Trib rapture, if the Holy Spirit is ‘removed’ no one, not even Gentiles could get saved during the Trib. Even more compelling, if the Holy Spirit is removed, then God is a liar! Why? Because Jesus clearly promised that He (via His Spirit) would be with His children, “until the END of the world.”[Mt 28:20] My understanding is that Jesus remains with us, and dwells in us, (now) via His spirit the Holy Spirit, since He has left the earth (temporarily) and gone back to the Father. Therefore, if His spirit is removed before the END, then God is a liar. “Let every man be a liar, but let God be TRUE.” [Rm 3:4]

Therefore, if the Holy Spirit is not the Restrainer, who or what is? Think it is Michael the archangel, who is also the ‘protector’ of Israel. “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [Dan 12:1] Note: Daniel’s people were the Hebrews or Jews, however Gentile believers are ‘grated into Israel’ by their faith in Jesus.

Javanut writes: Finally, Paul said to comfort one another with these words – it’s hardly comforting to know that you have to endure the wrath of God after you’ve been saved. I find it far more comforting to know that God saves us from the wrath to come!

my reply: Yes, believers (Jew or Gentile) are saved from His wrath to come, but you are equating His wrath with the Tribulation, and my understanding, if correct, is that they are not the same. The bowl judgments (or ‘vials’) do equate with His wrath, as the text in Revelation 16:1 states: “And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.” Note: the ‘end of the world’ occurs after all of God’s wrath is poured out.

We who wait for Him will be PROTECTED from God’s judgments and wrath, just as Noah and his family were protected in the Ark during the great flood. Our ark is Christ, and likewise will we be protected from the flood of judgments upon the wicked during the great tribulation. Did not God keep the Israelites safe from the plagues sent upon the Egyptians; their houses marked with sheep’s blood, symbolizing Christ’s future sacrificial death? And didn’t Christ pray: “Father, I ask not that you take them (His followers) out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil.”? [John 17:15] Given here are at least 2 examples of God delivering His own, through(not out of) tribulation.

Selah and Shalom,
Debra S.

No, I’m not Jewish. I’m a 100% born again gentile Christian, but have studied Hebrew a bit, and love the language.

Comment by Debra | August 15, 2009
RE post #141 —

Oops, at the very beginning, I left out Javanut’s comment: “If the Tribulation is to “purify the saints” what about the church that existed from 1850 to 1940? Do they somehow not get purified? Only the church of the last 7 yrs gets purified? How silly.”

To which I replied: “Many shall be purified, and made white,and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. [Dan 12:10] This is a reference to end time persecution of the saints on earth. Both Daniel and Revelation speak to the end time, and what occurs both to the world and to believers. At least, this is what has been and is commonly taught in majority of evangelistic and mainline protestant denominations for many centuries. Of course it can be argued that just because it’s been taught, doesn’t make it correct.

Sorry for the confusion, Debra

Comment by Debra | August 15, 2009
Dear Debra – from Seal #1 to Vial #7 – it is all the wrath of God – from which we are saved – see I Thess 1:10, I Thess 5:9 and Romans 5:9.

We are to look for Jesus – not the Antichrist. Once the Antichrist appears on the scene – everyone with a bible will know exactly how long it is until Jesus’ return to earth. Hardly qualifies as a “thief in the night” then does it?

No one said the Holy Spirit is going to be removed from the earth. God is One and He is everywhere. However the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelt Church which will be removed.

The Tribulation (7 yr period not to be confused with every day trials and tribulations) is the time of “Jacob’s wrath” not the Church’s wrath. It’s all about Israel and not about the Church which is why the Church is NOT mentioned from Rev 5 to Rev 19

Shalom to you too

Comment by Javanut | August 17, 2009
Ray said:

Miriam,

My advice would be to ignore people like Javanut. Same old same old: “Don’t get so paranoid…Not everyone is out to get you…” This is done to try and change the discussion from Perry Stone to you. I’m not saying Javanut isn’t a Christian, but this kind of stuff is typical of non-Christians, and liberals in general.

You don’t know me so you can’t say whether or not I’m a Christian. FYI – I am and have beenn a bible believing child of God for 39 yrs. As far as liberal – I laugh sir – ha ha ha. I’m so conservative I make Pat Buchanan and Newt Gingrich look like liberals. I’m farther to the right than Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage.

So much for your prejudging. You were wrong on all counts.

Comment by Javanut | August 17, 2009
Does anyone know the future of this site as there have been no new posts from Miriam for a long time. I pray she is not in danger or unwell. I value this site so much as I am sure many other do also. God keep you and bless you Miriam.

Comment by Margie in Oz | August 19, 2009
G-d doesn’t have two peoples: the church and Israel. He has one people and He calls His people: Israel. The word “church” in the Greek is “ekklesia”. It means called-out ones or an assembly/congregation. If you read the Greek version of the O.T.(the Septuagint), the “ekklesia” or “church” is used to refer to Israel. The church has not replaced Israel, nor is the church separate from Israel!

Please read the book of Ephesians. It clearly states that those from the nations (i.e. Gentiles) have joined the commonwealth (citizenship) of G-d’s people—— Israel.

Therefore, if you know who you are in Messiah, then you will be prepared. G-d doesn’t need a plan B, because plan A has worked from the beginning. He didn’t have a need to start all over with another entity called the church. To believe this implies that G-d is fallible. And He is NOT. The prophets make it clear that G-d would never disown Judah. Either the prophets are wrong or man’s theology is. I’ll put my trust in the word and not man.

Why do people want to keep a dividing wall up that Yeshua clearly tore down???? It can only be to suit your own desires and lusts. Judah is our brother and if he is our brother then we are part of his people: Israel. The reason the “church” isn’t mentioned after Rev. 5 isn’t because G-d removes the “church” to party while Judah and the rest of the world suffer. Really think about this. Ask the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to enlighten you to the truth. Is the Creator of the Universe the author of dispensationalism or is man? Who would you prefer to put you hope in?

The “church” isn’t mentioned because the word for “church” simply means in Hebrew and in Greek: the called-out ones. The word is a common noun—————- not a proper noun that names G-d’s people. Israel is sometimes called “Jacob”; this is the people of G-d. You either join them or you don’t. You believe or you don’t.

Jer 6:16-19 Thus said Yawheh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves. But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ (17) “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to the sound of the ram’s horn!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’ (18) “Therefore hear, you nations, and know, O congregation, what is upon them! (19) “Hear, O earth! See, I am bringing evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not listened to My words, nor My Torah – and they rejected it.

Comment by Chavah | August 19, 2009
Javanut,

I’m farther to the right than Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage.

WOW, more to the right than Rush Limbaugh???? Is that even possible? lol. I’m not into right or left politics. I personally believe 98% of politicians use religion and their beliefs just to get the majority vote. That’s just my opinion of course. But of course I have to vote Republican because the chances of the Libertarian party or the Green Party winning is 0%. At least their honest, right? I’m mean seriously think about this for a minute. What is worse someone from the Green Party winning and legalizing marijauna who defends the Constitution and the people’s rights or a democrat who takes pleasure in late term abortions? I can’t fully be a republican because for the most part not all, but alot of republican politicians agree with just about any war that is fought to “defend our soil for freedom”.

Comment by Jesus Heals | August 21, 2009
Why do you people that believe in the pre-rapture think G-d will save you from the wrath that is to come? People all over the world is being martyered for Yeshua everyday. They take a chance on loosing their lives by accepting Him as most of Christianity has the last 2000 years.

We are so spoiled in the country we live in. I know that there will be another Exodus and all of Israel will come togather with Judah and it will be greater than the first Exodus. Check it out in scripture. G-d protected the Children of Israel throughout all of the plagues and He will protect us during that time. The whole world will see that He is the only True I Am. That will be a lot more awesome than a rapture that excludes all Israel since all believers are a part of Israel if you truly believe.

Comment by Joyce Johnson | September 2, 2009
All I have to say is we just finished a revival with him and the bible says you shall know them by their fruits. The holy spirit was definately with him and everything that was said. About the other evangelist that are prementioned I don’t know haven’t seen them in person. God Bless and don’t forget that we ALL have fallen short at sometime in our lives let the holy spirit guide you thru life. We ourselves will fall short without Christ’s strength.

Comment by Mike | September 7, 2009
There is truly 5 positions now on the rapture, I only however believe the one I know to be right, but in this new age ungodly preaching, people come up with some off the wall stuff.

1. no rapture
2 partial rapture
3. midtribulation rapture
4. posttribulation rapture
5. pretribulation rapture

I know to believe in the pretribulation rapture, The pretribulation rapture states that the church will not go through any potion of the Tribulation. I believe this is correct for a few reasons!

1st. the very nature for the tribulation precludes the church from suffering any of it. The Tribulation is a horrendous time of WRATH,JUDGMENT,INDIGNATION,DARKNESS,DESTRUCTION, AND DEATH.

and it leads to DOOMSDAY! Paul wrote, ” There is therefore now no condemnation ( judgment ) to those who are in CHRIST JESUS ” ( ROMANS. 8:1 )

The church has been cleansed by the blood of JESUS and needs no other purification. Some might ask, ” Dont christians need to be cleansed ” YES, but we are cleansed through confession of sin, and most and foremost the blood of JESUS CHRIST, but not personal suffering. ” If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” ( 1st JOHN 1:9)

Partial rapture. those who hold to this position believe that when JESUS, comes in the clouds of glory, He will take only those who have had a second work of grace, or who are sanctified in their daily lives. According to this veiw, the body of CHRIST will be divided into 2 parts, a sanctified part that will ascend into heaven, and a unsanctified part that will be left to go through the Tribulation in hope that their sins may be purged through this great time of trial !

this has to be rejected, on the basis that death of JESUS CHRIST removed all sin. The bible says ‘ their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more ” ( heb.10:17) GOD, has no reasonto not receive anyone who has accepted JESUS as their LORD and SAVIOR!

and the other reason is, the bride of CHRIST ( the church ) is a body, perfect and complete. To suggest that part of the body must remain on earth while the other part is in heaven is contrary to Scriptures!

3. Midtribulation rapture. some christians believe that the church will endure the first 3 and a half years of the 7 year tribulation and be rartured before the beginning of the 2nd half of the tribulation. this position must be rejected because the first 3 and one half years of the tribulation consist of WARs,PESTILENCE,FAMINE,DISEASE,DESOLATION,DEATH,and the beginning of GODs WRATH is poured out on the earth. because the PURPOSE OF THE TRIBULATION IS TO PUNISH THE UNGODLY! not the church, the church can not go through either half of the TRIBULATION, because GOD can’t lie!

POSTTRIBULATION RAPTURE. this position holds that the church will go through the entire 7 year tribulation! and they believe the church will endure the full WRATH, and JUDGMENTS of GOD! then they will after the 7 years will be caught up in the air to be with the LORD, to return immediately with him to the earth!

A scripture often twisted to justify this position is ( john 16:33 ) ” In the world you will have tribulation ” In scripture the word tribulation is used in 2 different ways. the 1st is to describe any severe trial that comes upon or everyday walk with JESUS!
2nd. is used to describe the specific 7 year tribulation ( DANIELs seventieth week ) when the WRATH of GOD will be poured out upon men for their rejection of JESUS CHRIST and the gospel!

The purpose of the TRIBULATION is to punish those who have rejected the word of GOD, and the savior of the world! the bible assures us that there is no ” condemnation ( judgment 0 to those who are in CHRIST JESUS. ( ROM. 8:1 ) its not only unscriptural but its illogical to think the church would have to suffer the TRIBULATION. when the bible tells us we will not suffer.

Paul told the christians in a letter that they would not go through the tribulation, (2 THESS. 2:2 )
at that time they were very troubled, they were experiencing great persecution. just for being christians! they wanted to know was this the time of the TRIBULATION!

Paul said, they were not inthe TRIBULATION, He wrote, “that day will not come unless the falling away came first, and the man of sin ( antichrist ) is revealed, the son of perdition. ( 2 THESS.2:3 )

I hope and pray you are ready for the rapture, and believe what stand is right, because I believe the next thing on GODs fullness of time chart, will be the rapture. all the lines have matched up. if you know anything about prophecy you would see almost all prophecy has been fulfilled. and it says in GODs holy word, he will come like a thief in the night, no man knows the hour or the day. but only the father. be ready, look up and keep your eyes upon JESUS, I believe he is standing on the clouds of glory right now just waiting to step out and receive his bride the church. make sure you are ready before it takes place.. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

Comment by learner of the word | September 12, 2009
Javanut,

First of all you said to Miriam to not be so paranoid and that no one was out to get her.

That was a personal attack on your part and an attempt to divert attention away from research and inquiry into what Perry Stone is preaching and teaching and divert the discussion onto Miriam herself.

The Bible says that the Bereans were more noble in character than certain others because they checked out what Paul the Apostle (no less) and what he was preaching and teaching and comparing it to the scriptures, which Miriam is apprently wants ddone with Perry Stone.

You talk about me prejudging you? Puhleeze.

YOU, not me, started off by saying to Miraim to not be so paranoid and that no one is out to get her. And then you tell me to not prejudge you, when in fact I never did.

I never prejudged you.

I never said that you were not a Christian, nor did I say that you yourself were a liberal. I said that the diversionary tactic that you used is one that is used by liberals.

Indeed, your twisted what I said.

Then you accused me of prejudging you when it was YOU who prejudged Miriam by teling her to not act all paranoid.

What you have done is about a classic case of “projection” on your part that I have ever seen: You accuse others of prejudging you when in fact it was YOU who prejudged Miriam by telling her to not get all paranoid.

You can’t even figure out that I never said that you weren’t a Christian, nor can you figure out that I never said that you were a liberal, just that the diversionary tactic that you used is used by liberals.

Therefore, since you aren’t adept enough to figure out those things, and since you accuse me of prejudging you when I clearly didn’t but instead you prejudged Miriam by telling her to not be so paranoid, shows that your discernment on matters is not to be trusted.

I look forward to reposting this whenever and wherever I see you post here anywhere at Miriam’s blog. And I will.

Comment by Ray | September 16, 2009
Javanut,

BTW, I was correct in saying that when you said to Miriam that she didn’t need to be so paranoid, that that is a classical diversionary tactic used by liberals. It is one of Alinsky’s rules in “Rules for Radicals.”

Once again, I’m not saying that you are a liberal, so don’t twist it. I’m just saying that your diversionary tactic (in trying to turn the discussion away from Perry Stone and onto Miriam) by saying that she didn’t need to get so paranoid, is a tactic that liberals use.

Ergo, you should not use tactics like those.

Like I have said elsewhere on this site, when people check into what Obama’s policies are and then find out that they don’t like them and then oppose his polices, they are often accused by liberals of being a racist.

Same tactic: divert the discussion away from Obama’s policies and onto other people.

Comment by Ray | September 16, 2009
Bump for #151 and #152.

Comment by Ray | September 19, 2009
Perry has gobs of Jewish mysticism mixed into his teachings!
Also, everything that he does is calculated to sell something-a DVD, CD etc. His shows are a sales pitch. Like so many, there is a root of truth, and then the teaching goes off into a wrong direction. Then he brings on the sales pitch.
No one is as big a phony as Paula White! That woman doesn’t know basic Christianity (like Hinn). She jabbers pop psychology/prosperity teaching catch phrases-that’s all she’s got. She’s really dangerous.

Comment by HI,IT'SME!!!! | September 21, 2009
Hi
My comments on Perry Stone is that he is a man of God, and that he does know his scrptures about the Lord’s Reture. I have really learned alots from Perry Stone about the meaning of the scriptures about the rapture that I could not understand before. I would love to go with Perry Stone to Isreal oneday. That is my only true dream that I would someday go to Isreal,I have heard that you would feel the spirit of the Lord so strong their.And I know that oneday that my dream to go to Isreal, with Perry Stone and just to be there where I know that my Lord, walked the streets and all the other Holy sites. Perry Stone to me is true I feel it in my spirit he is a man of god.
God Bless Isreal, and Perry Stone minister.

Comment by connie headrick | September 21, 2009
when i think of the verse when many many people when they stand before jesus and will lord lord didn’t we cast out devils in your name and didn’t we prophecy in your name and perform many miracles in your name and then thelord jesus christ will say depart from me i never new you. i think of many people on tbn and many other quote un quote christian networks. these people i believe take so much of the bible out of context for their own desires

Comment by tommy goldschmitt | September 22, 2009
John 8:7b (New International Version)

…, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

New International Version (NIV)

Comment by SCB | September 22, 2009
Learner of the word

You have been indoctorinated by the New Covenant Church. They teach without any knowledge of the Eastern way of thinking and they teach that everything is on a time line. Everything in the Bible is connected. You cannot seperate the old G-d and the new G-d of the New Testament. He is the same yesterday today and forever. You really have to twist the scriptures to believe the church is so special that she will be taken away from all of this. The tribulation is coming against the lands that have been against Israel, all the 12 tribes not just the Jews. Most people interchange Jews and Israel. Learn one thing. All Jews are part of Israel but not all of Israel is Jews. All Texans are Americans but not all Americans are Texans. The same principle applies. When you start studing the prophets and realize there were 2 kingdoms (North and South Israel) the scripture about the end times become clearer.

Comment by follower of Yeshua | September 22, 2009
A-main, follower of Yeshua!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May those in the so-called “church” truly begin to follow our “Jewish” Messiah and really do what He did and walk as He walked; that is keeping the holy Torah (instructions)! And, may they see that if you have joined yourself with Messiah, then you have joined the commonwealth of Israel. (Eph. 2) This will open their eyes to the end times and they will come out from deception. May it happen quickly!

Be blessed,

Chavah

Comment by Chavah | September 22, 2009
I had a great deal of respect for this ministry until I saw the minister run to kiss the ring of bush and pat him back while in the middle of his teaching in Isreal. there it showws the reverence to god are men.Stone has come up with prophectic scenerios that border on fanatizim.He prays while he supports the rejime of sepretizim there were more violation of rights of man pertrade by the last adminis-
tration. Upon the return of the son of Marire he shall judge fairly to all nations and all tongues.

Comment by Ezell Carter | September 23, 2009
Dear follower of Yeshua,

I am honestly curious why you remove the letter o from God. Care to respond?

Comment by Toby Fruth | September 23, 2009
YESHUA!

i have studied bible prophecy for 15 years, i know what the bible said about the post i made, and i stand behind it 100%

if you would like i can back anything i post up with scripture, you just point out what you need to.

and i have no clue what you mean about indoctorinated by the New Covenant Church. because 99% of the christians, jews or gentiles believe the same in the pre-tribulation rapture. and GOD knows the true jew, and the jew who only is one by birth.

GOD does work in a so called time line,
just look at the prophecies that have been fulfilled in the last 70 years.

what do you think it means when it said, THE END OF THE AGE, thats where a time stops, and a new one starts..

and the prescool stuff you must have just learned in sunday school, about the SAME YESTERDAY TODAY, AND FOREVER.. yea i learned that 23 years ago.. but thanks for the heads up..

but the way you see it you call the truth a lie, because call said clearly, we his church, the bride of CHRIST, the salt of the earth, will not in any way go through the great tribulation. so here is a book you can study alittle more its caoll your bible, it in there friend, you just need to look harder, ok i will give you a free lesson, get a pen and paper so you can study up a little.. READY!

(2THESS. 2:12 ) paul, was telling them not to be troubled, because they thought they were going through the great tribultion, but paul made it very clear they were not, and if you read from 2-12, you see what paul said, now let me ask you a question. what is restraining the antichrist?

answer! the word of GOD, the truth, and the church!

so if we are still here, that means, the antichrist has not come yet, BECAUSE, he can not rule the earth until the church is gone..

last point! revelation 4;4 john wrote this, ( AROUND THE THRONE WERE TWENTY FOUR THRONES, AND ON THE THRONE WERE TWENTY- FOUR ELDERS SITTING, CLOTHED IN WHITE ROBES, AND THEY HAD CROWNS OF GOLD ON THEIR HEADS )

notice that these elders are seated, robed, and crowned. this is clearly smbolic of the church.

EPHESIANS 2:6, we read GOD has ” made us sit in heavenly places in christ JESUS ” revelation 19″8, ” and to her ( the church ) it is granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright ”

2 TIM. 4:8, ” finally there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the LORD, the righteous JUDGE, will give to me on that DAY, and to ALL who have loved his appearing ”

Now the critical question is this to you, WHEN IS THE CHURCH SEEN IN HEAVEN IN ITS GLORIFIED POSITION, just by what the bible shows us????????

never mind here’s the answer, it is seen at the very beginning of the tribultion that JOHN described in REVELATION 4-19.. it is seen in heaven, seated, robed, and crowned.

also, just one more! 2 THESS. 1:7-8, where PAUL spoke of giving ” you who are troubled rest with us when the LORD JESUS is revealed, and taking vengeance on those who do not know GOD, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, ” the wrath of GOD during the tribultion is to be poured out on THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOS! NOT ON THE CHURCH…

ok, maybe just a few more!

2 PETER, 2:7-9.. LOT was a righteous man. so we turn to GEN. 19:17-22.. the angle said, ” escape for your life! do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain, escape to the mountains, lest you be destroyed…. FOR I CAN NOT DO ANYTHING UNTIL YOU ARRIVE THERE!!!

the presence of one righteous man held back the wrath of GOD!
so to end this lesson, my point is this, the church has to be removed before GOD will bring forth his full wrath upon this world, the bible makes it clear, if you will just open your eyes and read what GOD said, and not how much you think you know, WE THE SAVED, THE RIGHTEOUS, THE SALT, IS THE ONLY THING THAT IS HOLDING THIS UNGODLY WORLD TOGETHER, SO IF YOU REMOVE IT WHAT HAPPENDS??

IT FALLS APART… I just would like to tell you, I am not a kid, or some collage know it all, I am a elder in the church, and a learner of GODs HOLY WORD, NO! I dont understand everything in the bible, but 75% of the bible is prophecy, and i do know alot about that, just a heads up, dont try and teach someone who can back everything up he post from the bible.. the word of the day is! HUMBLE

Comment by learner of the word | September 26, 2009
I have also been delighted in some of Perry Stone’s teachings. A wonderful teacher. Untill resently, while viewing one of Mr Stones shows. Mr. Stone and a guess, who were teaching on president Obamas’ name Barack. The interpretation Mr Stone and his guess came up with was very distrubing to me. I read in Judges chapt4:6-24, and the begining of Judges chapt. 5, that Deborah sent and called for Barak and she was his personal prophet. also in Hebrews the 11th chapt. verse 32, the faith chapt. So, which of us has been called by GOD to become president Obama personal prophe???? He does need one!!! We affim we have been called to be whatever in the kingdom. My other concern, was that Mr. Stone didn’t show a carefulness when speking againt the president. GOD can make us all liars, (let every man be a lie and GOD be true) when speaking what we think GOD has showned us…or HE can make our own tongue cleave to the roof of our mouths. We need to be very careful, and be very warned… We need to, not let our very own words turn and curse us. My DADDY, the great creater of all that is and is to come… GOD… my king, be exalted in YOUR own strength..arise O-LORD and render the heavens and sent the Captain of the LORD’S HOST. With his sword drawn… drawn to avenge your righteous people… from the vain teachings that are not of YOU but YOUR enemy. That has come to separate YOUR people with flattering words. We need YOU. O-LORD our HOLY and MIGHTY WARRIOR…YOU who never sleeps nor slumbers…arise our KING and our LORD in triumph and with victory..and with all power in YOUR HANDS…for YOU will never suffer the destroyer to triumph over YOUR people. We holdfast to every promise in JESUS…with an unshakable confidence…with bold cofessions of our faith…I bow my knees in reverence to the faithfulness of our KING that Obama is a brand plucked out of the fire. That GOD’S LOVE will continually abound and be established in him. In the riches of the HOLY GHOST ,through the delivering and restoring BLOOD of JESUS…by the grace of the GODHEAD bodily… In JESUS MIGHTY NAME…I place an all comsuming wall of fire in Obama’s heart to know the ONE and TRUE GOD. JESUS YOU will pierce all invading strongholds in Obama’s heart and mind. With a Holy vengenance…with YOUR wrath our MIGHTY KING of GLORY…true conviction upon all the true children of God, that speak that which YOU FATHER GOD have not spoken against Obama…Obama is hidden in the Shadow of GODS WINGS, untill he is of an understanding heart. Those who are strong in faith are to bare the infirmities of the weak. We humble ourselves under YOUR MIGHTY HAND PRECIOUS LORD…Shake us and wake us O LORD…How GREAT and FIERCE is the awesomeness of our GOD. From age to age HE alone stands supreme. A fragance exceeding wonderful…who is like unto HIM? I know none!! The true children we must Praise our KING OF KINGS. He DADDY (GOD) alone, only knows what HE is doing with Obama. WE must stand still and see the glory and salvation of (DADDY)our LORD GOD. Amen.. and so it is so…..

Comment by Joyce | September 30, 2009
I am very surprised at all of you.

It does matter WHEN the rapture happens . That is what Christ told us. You Won’t Know when he is coming. Your all missing the point, that is not what matters. What matters is that no matter what, under any circumstances, good or bad, you live according to God’s will with Christ in your heart. The rest of it doesn’t matter at all. When you are listening to HIS voice, He will lead you and protect you and have you where you need to be, when you need to be there and doing what He wants you to do and He will provide you with all you need to do it. No matter WHAT! That’s the point. It’s about your obedience, your trust and your faith. Yours, not anyone elses.

Comment by Janice Koonce | September 30, 2009
Learner of the Word,

You said,

“i have no clue what you mean about indoctorinated by the New Covenant Church. because 99% of the christians, jews or gentiles believe the same in the pre-tribulation rapture.”

Please do tell where you’re getting your statistical information. 99%??????? You are sadly mistaken; this is actually laughable because of its naivety. The pre tribulation rapture theory is most popular in western nations, particularly America. To boot, it is a new theory beginning in the 1800s and was popularized after 1948 when Israel once again became a nation——————– something the historical church thought would never happen. So, please supply your source for your statistics.

You also said,

“GOD does work in a so called time line, just look at the prophecies that have been fulfilled in the last 70 years.”

Where is it written in scripture to support that God works in a “so called timeline”. Where do the prophets draw out a (western) timeline? Perhaps you are referring to the commentary written by men that is present in your bible. They love timelines. But, the word itself doesn’t draw out timelines nor do they use bullet points to list out prophecy.

Now, don’t misunderstand my point. I do believe and can clearly see that a lot of prophecy has been fulfilled in recent years. The God of the bible (and all Hebrew thinkers i.e. those that wrote the bible) do not think of time as a line beginning somewhere way off to the left and ending somewhere way off to the right with a cross stuck somewhere in the middle that changes everything previously written.

Thus, they think of time as a circle or a cycle. Like the moon. They understand that the end is the beginning and beginning is the end. This is why Isaiah said,

“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure” Isa 46:10

In Hebrew, it literally says, “Declaring from the beginning the end…” So, if you really want to understand the end times, your best bet is to study the beginning. It is the foundation after all. I suggest starting with the Torah (the 5 books of Moses).

Then you said,

“and the prescool stuff you must have just learned in sunday school, about the SAME YESTERDAY TODAY, AND FOREVER.. yea i learned that 23 years ago.. but thanks for the heads up..”

Perhaps you misunderstand their point here also. If God doesn’t change then neither does His Word, His Laws, His doctrine, His feasts, the things He hates, the things He likes, His people, or His covenants. He doesn’t have a need for a plan B. To say that He changed (whether it be His plan, His laws, His feasts, His people, etc) because of man makes Him CHANGE———- there is no way around this, so perhaps people DO need to be reminded of this.
You said,

“but the way you see it you call the truth a lie, because call said clearly, we his church, the bride of CHRIST, the salt of the earth, will not in any way go through the great tribulation. so here is a book you can study alittle more its caoll your bible, it in there friend, you just need to look harder, ok i will give you a free lesson, get a pen and paper so you can study up a little.. READY!”

I’m READY!!!!

You again,

“(2THESS. 2:12 ) paul, was telling them not to be troubled, because they thought they were going through the great tribultion, but paul made it very clear they were not, and if you read from 2-12, you see what paul said, now let me ask you a question. what is restraining the antichrist? answer! the word of GOD, the truth, and the church! so if we are still here, that means, the antichrist has not come yet, BECAUSE, he can not rule the earth until the church is gone..”

Ok, first back up to the beginning of the chapter and read it in context.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I agree Paul is telling them not to be troubled. But, verse 3 states that that day will not come UNTIL there is first a falling away and the man of sin is REVEALED. These two things must happen BEFORE we are gathered unto Him at His coming. Notice that he prefaces this with “Let no MAN deceive you by any means”. So, if you believe the falling away and the revealing of the “antichrist” or man of sin happens after you are gathered to Him you are deceived just like those in Thessalonica.

Then continuing with the man of sin:

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Context, context, context. The subject is the man of sin! Paul reminds us to remember that he already told us these things. In his next breath, he tells us, “AND NOW ye KNOW what withholdeth (restrains/letteth) that he might be revealed in his time. So, if read in context, who is that withholdeth or restrains????? THE MAN OF SIN, the son of perdition.

Why would we assume that something is restraining the antichrist? You have it backwards. The restrainer IS the antichrist!! How do I know? In the next verse, Paul says, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work…” This spirit of the antichrist (antimessiah) was alive and at work in Paul’s day, and in our day, and he was even at work BEFORE Yeshua (Jesus) throughout the Tenakh (O.T.).

The second part of verse 7 also declares this truth, “only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” The word “letteth” is the same Greek word translated “withholdeth” in verse 6. The spirit of the antichrist will remain working his evil throughout world (during all times) UNTIL he is taken out of the way!! How do I know? Verse 8 describes this very event:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The real Messiah will consume the restrainer with the spirit of His mouth and with the brightness of His coming!!! How much clearer does Paul have to be? Well, he does warn of those that would believe a lie———————- this strong delusion is sent by God Himself (vs. 11) Don’t be deceived! If you think that you won’t suffer tribulation you believe a lie and won’t be prepared.

The spirit of the antichrist is alive and well and working on earth as I write! No thinking person can deny this. John told us this is so:

“1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

Therefore, the twisting of the scriptures to assume that the “church” must be removed because they restrain the antichrist is ludicrous. He’s been here all along!!!! Don’t be deceived!! Or when he manifests in the form of “a man” you may fall captive to his deception. He that lives in us is greater than he that is IN THE WORLD. We are called to be overcomers for a reason—————–we must overcome something!!

Then you said,

“last point! revelation 4;4 john wrote this, ( AROUND THE THRONE WERE TWENTY FOUR THRONES, AND ON THE THRONE WERE TWENTY- FOUR ELDERS SITTING, CLOTHED IN WHITE ROBES, AND THEY HAD CROWNS OF GOLD ON THEIR HEADS) notice that these elders are seated, robed, and crowned. this is clearly smbolic of the church.”

First, there are 24———————– hopefully you think there are more than 24 true believers. If it is symbolic to you, then why does this even have to happen before the 2nd coming?? Don’t see your point at all.

You said,

“EPHESIANS 2:6, we read GOD has ” made us sit in heavenly places in christ JESUS ” revelation 19″8, ” and to her ( the church ) it is granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright ”

I don’t think you understand what the church is completely; especially sense you added to this verse. You do know that the word church is “ekklesia” in the Greek language and that if you read the Septuagint (Greek text of the O.T.) the ekklesia has been around for a LONG time! It is used to refer to Israel, God’s people throughout the Old Testament. The translator’s chose to translate this word different in the New Testament….. WHY??? Could it be that restrainer trying to keep us from the truth???????

Think about this! The enemy comes to kill, STEAL, and destroy.

Your following quotes,

“2 TIM. 4:8, ” finally there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the LORD, the righteous JUDGE, will give to me on that DAY, and to ALL who have loved his appearing ”Now the critical question is this to you, WHEN IS THE CHURCH SEEN IN HEAVEN IN ITS GLORIFIED POSITION, just by what the bible shows us???????? never mind here’s the answer, it is seen at the very beginning of the tribultion that JOHN described in REVELATION 4-19.. it is seen in heaven, seated, robed, and crowned. also, just one more! 2 THESS. 1:7-8, where PAUL spoke of giving ” you who are troubled rest with us when the LORD JESUS is revealed, and taking vengeance on those who do not know GOD, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, ” the wrath of GOD during the tribultion is to be poured out on THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOS! NOT ON THE CHURCH…”

Again, your point is moot. Just because you don’t see the English word “church” in the text doesn’t mean that they are “taken away”. Dispensationalist love to tout that they read scripture literally. This type of interpretation that you are promoting doesn’t even come close to a “figurative” rendering much less literal. It is an assumption from silence. Unbelievable. Remember what I told about the word for church “ekklessia”. If you do nothing else with this post————————- at least do some in-depth study on that. Pray and ask God to show you the truth——————BUT don’t do it to prove YOUR point. Do it because you want to know the truth and be willing to submit to the Spirit of Truth. If we aren’t willing to submit, the enemy is working through us by using our pride.

I actually used to believe like you. The Father changed all that because I did exactly what I just asked you to do. It was humiliating and humbling and I lost a lot according to the world———————OH but I gained so much more in Christ (Messiah).

Yet you said a little more,

“2 PETER, 2:7-9.. LOT was a righteous man. so we turn to GEN. 19:17-22.. the angle said, ” escape for your life! do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain, escape to the mountains, lest you be destroyed…. FOR I CAN NOT DO ANYTHING UNTIL YOU ARRIVE THERE!!! the presence of one righteous man held back the wrath of GOD!”

First, it wasn’t that Lot somehow had power over the Almighty God. God is a promise keeper and He had promised Abraham that Lot would be spared. Therefore, he mercifully waited for Lot to escape. So, what is your point? Rev 7 shows His mercy as well.

“Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”Rev 7:3

Again you said,

“so to end this lesson, my point is this, the church has to be removed before GOD will bring forth his full wrath upon this world, the bible makes it clear, if you will just open your eyes and read what GOD said, and not how much you think you know, WE THE SAVED, THE RIGHTEOUS, THE SALT, IS THE ONLY THING THAT IS HOLDING THIS UNGODLY WORLD TOGETHER, SO IF YOU REMOVE IT WHAT HAPPENDS??”

Where in the bible does it say that the righteous are holding the world together? It is not us that holds the world together——————————–it is the Word of God (Heb. 11:3; Is 40:26, Rom 1:20)

You ended with,

“IT FALLS APART… I just would like to tell you, I am not a kid, or some collage know it all, I am a elder in the church, and a learner of GODs HOLY WORD, NO! I dont understand everything in the bible, but 75% of the bible is prophecy, and i do know alot about that, just a heads up, dont try and teach someone who can back everything up he post from the bible.. the word of the day is! HUMBLE”

First, the world wouldn’t fall apart without the “church” in it. No where does the bible say this. It is He that is IN us that is powerful, not the collective power of men/women.

For the record, I also am not a college student, nor a kid, nor a know it all. I also lead in ministry. I have many many hours of in-depth study and have prayed much concerning my beliefs. It eventually boiled down to God’s or man’s word————— I chose God’s word. I have no desire to even debate scripture unless scripture is the foundation and is used to back up every position. I refuse to uphold traditions of man or man’s doctrines, no matter how precious it is and no matter how many might believe it to be so. The majority of God’s people didn’t understand His first coming and if the Father and His Word works in patterns and types and shadows (and I believe it does) then the majority of those that call themselves Christians will also misunderstand the circumstances of His 2nd coming.

There is nothing new under the sun. I do not equate the words of men with the words of God. The remnant is simply that a remnant.

Be blessed!

Comment by Techiyah | October 1, 2009
It’s amazing to see all these folks here that are experts; certainly believing that they are more knowledgeable than perry stone they are criticizing. Everyone feels they know it all but others know nothing and are heretics. God has not sent any of us to pick holes in people’s lives but to be wary of ourselves being tempted, falling into sin and being filled with spiritual pride.

Isn’t it better to discern right from wrong and eschew evil, without being the accuser of the brethren? God help us all.

Comment by Larry Jacobs | October 2, 2009
sorry you feell so strong that you are so right, but by my 30 plus years of study in hebrew and greek, and most important the word of GOD, I know what is true and what is the truth, and yes i can back anything up i say with scripture..

and yes i know the torah, and that is jewish law, i am under grace, which leads me back to the law, but i can’t and should not even try to live under jewish law, nor should any person who is not 100% jewish..

and yes i know there will be more than 24 saved . lol
wow, you are truly selfrighteous. its very hard to talk to people like you, who say they are so right and everybody else is so wrong.

and you are wrong on alot of your beliefs my friend, but thats on you, i know what GODs holy word said, and yes i agree he is the same GOD yesterday today, and forever, and people try and change him to make their life work, but if you think i try you are alittle off..

my LORD ids JESUS CHRIST, i know the bible , and yes i know the torah, very well, but you make it what you want, i know what i believe is right.. but i quess if you think you are right about going through the great tribulation, fine by me, i will be sitting in heaven after my LORD JESUS CHRIST raptures me up on the coming day, so if you are going through the tribulation, then you missed the rapture.

and there won’t be but one rapture, maybe its you who has been told wrong, and maybe you should do alittle more study, so you keep believing that just because you say we twist scripture around to fit our lives, and we the new age christians back in the 1800s started this rapture talk.

but here i’ll let you make your own mind up and believe what you will, but this is from REV. 3:10 and my long years of study tells me this, so i pray you can just open your eyes and heart to understand why the church will not go through the tribulation..

10. because you ( the church ) ( the saved ) have kept my command to presevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth..

this means, an event still in the future, that for a short time severely test the whole world, must refer to the time of the great tribulation, it is identified as a TIME to come, ( so does GOD not have a time frame, for which all things must come to pass ) the bible said he does…

and yes he does work in circles, ( just as in the time of NOAH, it shall be like in the end times )

so yes i agree and all ready knew that, but you can disagree all you want with me but the bible does’nt agree with your belief system and all points my friend..

now back to my point, the verb ” to keep ” is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is ” from” or “out of ” the phrase ” keep ” or ” from ” supports the pretribulation rapture of the church.

this period is the same as DANIALS 70th week and the time of JACOBS trouble!

1st CORINTHIANS. 15:51-54, you can read it, but i will do what i can to help you understand it.

mystery. this term refers to truth hidden in the past and revealed in the NT. in this case the rapture of the church, was never revealed in the OT. it was first mentioned in JOHN.14:1-3… WHEN IT IS SPECIFICALLY EXPLAINED AND IS DETAILED IN 1ST THESS. 4:13-18…

twinkling of an eye.. PAULs way of showing how brief the moment will be. The greek ( yes i know greek ) word for twinkling refers to any rapid movement. since the eye can move more rapidly than anyother body part..

it show and illustrates the sudden transformation of the raptured believers.

trumpet will sound! shows the end of the church era. when all believers will be removed from the earth at hte rapture ( 1st THESS. 4:16 )

and yes i do agree with you to a point with ( who hold the antichrist back until the time GOD has giving him )

put as i said before i stand behind my bible 100%

it is GOD who hold satan, and the antichrist back, but it is also GOD who lets us ( the church ) have power over him, so in a way we with the power of the holy spirit hold him back, until we the church leave this world in the rapture, to be with our LORD JESUS CHRIST, until we come back after the tribulation to watch JESUS CHRIST destroy satan, and his army..

but like i siad before, GOD knows my heart, and i know my bible, and GOD speaks to me and shows me what he wants me to know and do, so don’t talk down to me about( how im the way you where ) no son i am a child of the most high GOD, and i know my bible, and whatever it is you ae so mad about when it come to the ( WESTERN ) beliefs, let me give you so news, the GOD of ISRAEL, is the same GOD of my bible, and just because you don’t agree with my beliefs, don’t make yours right..

GOD BLESS………………………

Comment by learner of the word | October 2, 2009
Please notify me of follow-up comments via email.
Thanks,
Judy

Comment by Judy | October 18, 2009
What a wonderful man Perry Stone is. Why you guys trash him he is out winning souls for the L-RD. Please check yourself out before you go off on someone else. Look at all the stuff he is doing for G-D. We all know there is a lot easier and more fleshly ways to make a living besides selling little Jewish jewelery(like maybe 15 products total on his site). Come on you guys are making him sound like Walmart for Jewish accessories PLEEAAASSEE!!!!!! How many people has heard you speak the WORD of G-d this week??? Mr . Stone is in the thousands every week. G-D forgive these people for they know not what they do!!!

Comment by jesusfreak | October 18, 2009
I just want to add my 2 cents on Perry. I disagree on a lot of “conclusions” of things he teaches, but I am sure he is in the Lord. I was listening to him the other day and he had a nugget that was nothing short of beautiful on the cave Moses and Elijiah both went to. In fact I drew out much more after reading both accounts. I felt Gods anointing just as he was sharing it on tv. There is no way he could see those things unless the spirit revealed them.

I also just wanted to make a comment on the meal that heals too. I never ordered anything in regards to this, but the word, especially the book of Hebrews is rich with the atonement work of Christ. If most had a true revelation of the communion cup and body and preisthood of Jesus we would all be well. If physical health and communion have no correlation then why is it there are sick and weakly among us for it’s improper application in the word? Healing by the communion of Christ is a truth, just as Remission of sins is for water baptism and the promise of the Holy Spirit to those who had not received it beforehand.

It is a faith issue, because the doctrines are in the word. Drinking juice and eating a cracker is nothing, getting wet doesn’t make you clean, but when done in faith and obediance to Christ and standing on the word, believing, it is a fact.

This is not a WOF statement here. I have been physically healed before. God opened the word to me about the preisthood and communion. I took the cup and bread daily. A couple months later and much prayer my faith was strong, I believed and I was spontaniously healed.

If Elijiah was translated we too could be. Not to say we will be, because God chooses, not us, whom he will have mercy on and whom he will heal and save. If we go to God and bugg him enough and believe that he not only can but wants too make us whole (he did for those that left egypt) we too can have good health. Sometimes his grace is sufficient in your infirmity and weakness. Ask with right motives.

If we take communion with strangers (open communion with unsaved people) or with unforgiveness well, guess what?

We don’t have to throw out faith because WOF abuse it for gain.

Comment by Jerie Quinty | October 18, 2009
Speaking as one who spent years and thousands of dollars on “outside Bible publications,” and found it to be almost 100% a waste of time and money, I recommend people just drop all that and return to good Bible exegesis.

Perry Stone is yet another example of a long list of “too many people writing too many books” and merchandizing of the Word.

If people would spend more time reading and studying the whole Bible with the whole Bible explaining itself, without opinions and in context, we wouldn’t have the mess Christendom is in today.

The reason there are some 22,000 different versions of Christianity branching off from the many denominations and not getting along with one another, is lack of good Bible knowledge.

We recommend Moriel Ministries with Jacob Prasch who has about the best Biblical discernment ministry going. He isn’t just critical, anybody can do that, but approaches these people in Biblical context first. The Biblical way has procedures which he follows, and asks them on record what they have said or published (public domain and recorded)to make them accountible for their statements.

One final recommendation is Ariel.org with Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who is becoming known as the world’s leading “born again” Jewish Bible scholar. As stated above, they ONLY teach the whole Bible explaining itself by the whole Bible, no opinions and in context.

We don’t hate these teachers in error, none of us are a 100%, but we are to pray for one another.

Comment by Adam Lee Terrell | October 19, 2009
The whole premises of judging Pastors,Teachers,Eangelists is all wrongly based.The pep-rally,emotional and phycological hopla of modern CHRISTIANITY is profitable business,but wrong spiritual discernment.
With the rejection of A CHRISTIAN,ANTI-ABORTION,ANTI-HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE SHARAH PALIN and the casting of CHRISTIAN votes for a non-christian,pro-abortion,non-U.S.flag saluding AND ONE world goverment advocate BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, ONLY REVEALS the lack of REAL SPIRITUAL SOUND DOCTRINE TEACHING OF THE GET THE MONEY,FILL THE PEWS,ENTERTAIN THE MASSES PREACHING,TEACHING OF THE SO-CALL MODERN CHURCH.Todays Christians offend only one another but,not THE SPIRITUAL ATTACKS OF A TRANSFORM EVIL AND ITS WORKERS.OUR GROWTH HAS BEEN TEN MILES LONG AND 1/2 IN. IN DEPTH.EVERYTHING IS OPINION WITH OUT BIBLICAL SPIRITUAL DISCERTMENT.THE ENEMIES OF GOD ARE MY ENEMIES.

Comment by jesse orona | October 30, 2009
I have read most of the comments about Perry Stone and the pre/post trib, etc. I have a few comments of my own!

Did anyone out there posting consider praying BEFORE they posted BASHING comments? Did anyone consider the words of Jesus who said, “I will make you fishers of men”? It is not our (or Perry Stone’s) job to fix people once they come to Christ. We all are responsible for our own salvation and I have heard some of those same preachers/teachers that some have been bashing preach on “minding our own business” and pray for change within ourselves and others. Jesus said, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. Does that knock anyone upside the head? As for the false prophets/preachers, pray for discernment. I never take anything a preacher says for the full truth. Why? Because even in my own church the preachers livelyhood depends on the larger tithers within the congregation. Therefore, his preaching is based on Biblical truth but whitewashed somewhat to appease those contributors. Does this make it right in Gods eyes? I can’t speak for God!!! I follow through with more in-depth study myself. Hence, being responsible for my own salvation. There was a comment made earlier about all those who can’t read or write and their dependence upon the TV evangelists/preachers. My husband has dyslecia and can not read pass a 6th grade level, but he can read and comprehend the Bible (sometimes better than me with a college education). How did that happen? PRAYER!!! As for the pre/mid/post tribulation, if “we” are saved, sancified and filled with the Holy Spirit and confess our sins and have a DAILY walk with God, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHETHER IT IS PRE/MID/POST TRIBULATION? Is that doubt seeping in here with all this debate? Will you give up your salvation because you found that you were wrong in the end or you were right and enjoy the suffering of others from heaven?

Now lets get to the Book of Jasher. The Book of Jasher is mentioned in the Old Testament. There are over 600 known books associated with the Bible…ever heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS? Has anyone out there done a study of the History of the Bible? I highly recommend it to everyone…most enlightening. The Bible as a “book” in bound form originally had 88 books. Why aren’t all 600 and something books included in todays Bible? Because you would have to be a weightlifter to carry it into the Church on Sunday morning. When the Bible was first compiled, the decision makers (church elders/bishops/priests,etc.) selected the books to be included by whether they had definitive proof of the author. Does that make the Book of Jasher or the Gospel According to Peter invalid? No. Do we know that the “decision makers” were “in the spirit” when they decided on which books to include and which were to be excluded? No. For example, Jesus told the Pharisees and Seducees that “they would deceive many” and in the Gospel According to Peter (not in our current Bible) Peter claims to be the only disciple to witness the burial and resurrection. He also tells that the Pharisees and Seducees had a tent erected outside of Jesus tomb and witnessed the resurrection but they feared that the Jewish people would rise up against them if it was known that they had led the people to crucify the Messiah. So the Pharisees and Seducees paid the soldiers guarding the tomb to keep the information to themselves. Hence, they did in fact “deceive many”. I have read a lot of the “Lost Books of the Bible” and I believe that the information contained in them enhance and clarify the Bible that is in existence today. In my opinion, I am seeking Gods face by seeking all of the truth. (Opinion – a judgement formed about a person or thing)

In closing, I would like to say God Bless all of you. Keep the truth of these preachers that you are soo afraid of and seek answers through the Word of God.

Roxlyn

Comment by roxlyn | November 15, 2009
I am reading a lot of Calvanism here and as usual they condemn everyone and every teaching not aligned with their very narrow view and disdain for Judaism.

Comment by Jan | November 15, 2009
Wow oh wow! Do you feel better after that rant?

I am always amazed at “Christians” who can CHEW PEOPLE OUT in one breath and close with “God Bless” .. as if that cancels out the previous tantrum.

“Soo” afraid – I’m not afraid of “preachers” but I will continue to search the scripture and determine for myself what, through the one who will “lead and guide into ALL TRUTH” what is Biblical and in line with scripture and what is not.

We are all to work out our OWN salvation with trembling and fear.

I don’t want to be deceived ..that does not mean I “fear” a preacher.

Comment by sarah | November 15, 2009
I remember watching Perry Mason as he became ‘noticed’. At the time I didn’t hear him say anything I didn’t already know. I think it was his enthusiasm that caught people up. I seriously don’t like him now as the Spirit convicts me Perry has lost his way.

Prosperity sure does ruin His people, doesn’t it?

@ Roxlyn Have ya sent Perry any money lately? I haven’t.

Blessings

Comment by bonbon | November 19, 2009
Under no circumstances whatsoever can Perry Stone be considered “Biblically sound”! He also misuses and misquotes Jewish myth and other writings as if they had real relevance to Scriptural insight. In addition he uses obvious frauds, such as the “Book Jasher”, as if they themself were scripture. Perry Stone is yet another deceiver who seeks any way possible to get money out of believers.

Comment by Philip | November 21, 2009
Roxlyn,
Yes we do pray about these people and we do study. Sadly, many people think that because people like Perry accept books like the Book of Jasher (which has no academic backing for it’s authenticity)that we should treat them like scripture. People need to hear these warnings when they are deceived. Unfortunately, that very deception prevents them from listening to reason and rejecting the lie. The Bible is sufficient to know what God wants of us and how we should live as we await Messiah’s return. We do not need to have our ears tickled by fanciful teachings – many of which are sold rather than given freely (Perry Stone is no exception in this – just try to find any Must have teaching of his without handing over your dollars) , we just need to be obedient to what we have.

Comment by Eve | November 22, 2009
Perry Stone has never called the “Book of Jasher” scripture. As a matter of fact, he is always clear that it is an extra-biblical source. He uses it and other Jewish writings like most teachers/preachers/pastors use the teachings of the church fathers. No one considers the writings of the church fathers as “scripture” either.

Although I strongly disagree with some of Perry’s doctrine’s, I don’t have to gossip or slander his character by saying things that are NOT true about him. Perry never teaches that the book of Jasher or the ancient Jewish writings are scripture. He has never said this on his T.V. program or in any of his books. His accusors should be required to bring forth witnesses!

Those that think that history books, Jewish writings, apocrypha books, or the writings of the church fathers cannot be spoken about or quoted from while studying or teaching are being ridiculous. Just because someone quotes Rambam, Josepheus, or Thomas Jefferson doesn’t mean they are placing their writings on level with scripture!! It takes a real idiot to ASSUME such. I am diappointed in the lack of character and discernment some of you are using.

We must measure everything by the plumbline: the Holy Bible. The writing will stand or fall based on the plumbline. If you don’t understand this, then please by all means keep your mouth shut.

Pray before you slander your neighbor and bring at least 2 witnesses to uphold your accusation!

Comment by Techiyah | November 22, 2009
Techiyah, I’m afraid on the few occassions I’ve wasted any time listening to Perry Stone he was waxing enthusiastically about this book in such a way that his audience could very easily have felt he meant it should be included in scripture! In fact he went on to base his whole teaching on this heretical falsification. He is a false teacher without any doubt whatsoever and I proclaim that truth to the Body of Messiah so that they will not be misled by him.

Comment by Philip | November 22, 2009
Sadly, my experience is that Perry may state that the Book of Jasher is not Scripture, but he uses it as if it is. He treats it as such deriving teaching from it. Thereby he is deceived and deceives others.

Comment by Eve | November 23, 2009
Philip,

First, I must repeat that I don’t agree with everything that Perry Stone teaches. However, I have watched his program for years and have read most of his books. Therefore, I can claim to know his character better than someone that has watched his program a “few” times. His understanding of Hebraic roots is quite good even though he views everything through the glasses of dispensationalism (A man-made doctrine).

Have YOU ever read the book of Jasher? Exactly which points in the book do not line up with scripture in your mind? The church fathers wrote and taught MANY things that have no scriptural support, yet most Christians blindly accept their writings as truth. Is there a double standard here?

In a previous post you mentioned that Jewish “myths” (whatever that means) and other Jewish writings have no relevance to scripture insight. You do realize that nearly the entire bible was written by Jews, right? You do also realize that our heavenly Father chose to work through and among the people of Israel, including Jews, right? And you also realize that Jesus was/is a Jew, right?

Seems that the ancient history and the writings of “Jews” is MANDATORY for proper scripture insight and interpretation. After all, if YHWH (the LORD) entrusted them with His very word (Rom. 3), then to claim they have no relevance reeks of ignorance. The prophets, of course, foresaw all this. (Zec 8:23; Jer 16:19)

Do you really believe that those that were faithfully following the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that lived in the time BEFORE and during the time of the Messiah————————-had no wisdom????? These are those that lived by faith and kept the commandments of God. They lived out HIS cycles, feasts, and worshiped in HIS temple. Do you really think that you know more than they? Really?

I think you are focusing on those that did NOT live by faith, but had perverted the plan of God and turned it into a “works” salvation. They were similar to the ones Paul opposed. BUT, there were many that were faithful; God always has a remnant! You must not forget scriptures like these: John 11:45, 12:11, 12:42; Acts 2, 6:7, etc.—- all Jews, and many priests.

Don’t let the enemy cheat you out of pearls! Also, just because someone is enthusiastic about something doesn’t mean that they consider it as “scripture”. Perry explicitly states that the source is extra-biblical. Plain and simple. If people ASSUME otherwise, then it is their own lack of knowledge that destroys them.

Comment by Techiyah | November 23, 2009
Sorry to but in Techiyah, but many of us in the church do not accept the church fathers teaching in the way you suggest. There is much wrong with what they wrote.
We do not need to drink poison or spend months with drunkards to know such things are wrong or to speak out against them, neither do we need to waste hours of our precious time studying heresy or listening to it to recognise it.
If you read the “Book of Mormon” you will find it supports much Christian doctrine that we could wholeheartedly agree with, but it is still a heretical, dangerous book.
The content of the Book of Jasher – which is accepted by the majority of academics as a fake- is not the issue, it is what Perry Stone does with it that is the problem. You only need to see him misrepresent it once(ie as genuine and a support for doctrine and a reliable history) to know this man cannot be trusted.

Comment by Eve | November 23, 2009
Just a further comment, The whole Bible was written by Hebrews. (Not Jews only, some were from other tribes than Judah, Benjamin and Levi)Luke was a Jew, that can easliy be demonstrated. Philip is my husband and pastor and we celebrate all the Bible Feasts according to the Biblical Cycle. There are many Jewish myths written by Rabbis over the last 2000 years and many books before that not included in Scripture. Yes Philip has read widely in this area both in Hebrew and Greek at University and afterwards. He often reads the Mishna and Talmud to further His understanding, but bears in mind it was written by people who do not know Messiah and many have willingly and knowingly rejected him.

Comment by Eve | November 23, 2009
Wow, we have much more in common than I thought. I am fully aware of the other tribes, but on a forum such as this I typically use the term “Jew”——– because most Christians see no difference between Israel, Jews, and the other tribes. They also see themselves as a separate entity (the church). All rooted in dispensationalism.

I also keep the 7th day Shabbat, feasts, cycles—— moedim. My family and I are Torah keepers——-not for salvation, but because we are saved. We love HIM and that love causes us to desire to be obedient. We have been studying the Hebrew people, culture, and language for seven years now and it has changed our lives. The scriptures have come alive and full of meaning.

But——– I know for fact that many years ago seed was planted in our hearts through several ministries that would serve as a springboard and eventually bring us to where we are now. Perry’s ministry may have flaws——- and believe it or not I am usually one to point them out not defend him, but he also does some good. He has made many aware of Hebraic roots that otherwise would never know. I just pray that that YHWH and His Word lights the path and drives them to dig deeper than Perry ever dares to go.

I know his theology is off ———– way off in some areas. I also HATE that he teaches and practices “mixing and mingling the holy with the profane” (Ezk 22:26)when it comes to YHWH’s feast days and Christian holidays rooted in paganism and tradition. Perry boldly proclaims that he does BOTH. YHWH hates this! (and therefore we should also)

However, I also know that YHWH was so merciful with me and continues to be! I don’t believe that this man is intentionally teaching fallacy. I know many messianic believers that began their journey of coming out of “Babylon” while studying/watching Perry Stone. They can all clearly see his errors now, but there was a time that Perry’s ministry served a purpose in their lives.

Perry actually uses the book of Jasher very little in his teachings. He also never presents it as a set in stone premise or doctrine when the source isn’t the Bible itself. He instead teaches from the book of Jasher as “could it be” or “perhaps” type of study. This doesn’t offend me, because there isn’t any deception in speculation when it is clearly taught as just that: speculation.

However, I can also see how this could unintentionally trip up babes. Yet, I’ve never met a single person that watches Perry that has even the slightest notion that the book of Jasher should be considered scripture because Perry stone used it in a couple of teachings. Perhaps you are underestimating the church and Perry’s audience.

Regardless, the truth is that we most likely have much more in common than in difference. I am against Perry on most issues. I pray that the work you and your husband are doing prospers—— and may many eyes be opened! May the Torah and the living Torah (Y’Shua) rule in all of our hearts.

Comment by Techiyah | November 23, 2009
Hallelujah Techiyah!
If you ever are in our area you are welcome to join us for Kiddush or whatever is seasonal at the time!

You are fortunate not to know of people who treat this book as scripture. I do. They don’t call it such but treat it reverently. Since it is most probably a fake, the whole exercise is pointless.
For us, who both came from families that celebrated the “pagan Christian” feasts, we are watching many who have left such things behind being enticed again because of Perry Stone and Bill Cloud. It hurts us deeply. We must remember what happened to Aaron’s sons when they tried to offer fire in a way God had not ordained. God is merciful to us when we are in ignorance, but when we act in knowing disobedience or even defiance, he is not so tolerant. Perry knows the truth of the feasts, but tells people pagan tradition is OK too! God warned us so clearly in the Torah he hates these practices and we are NOT to copy the religions around us. My heart aches for my friends who have seemed mature for years who are now following the teachings of this man,celebrating pagan feasts again and may very well suffer for it.

9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no-one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practises divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
Deut 18:9-13 (ANIV)

We have looked at our Hebrew Roots for many years and have run some Messianic Congregations in that time. As leaders we shall be held responsible for not warning about error where we see it and our sheep are led astray. Before God it is our duty to sound the alarm. In these days of deception we must teach people to discern the Truth – a job that gets harder by the day. May God bless you in your search for Truth. We wish you a hearty Shalom.

Comment by Eve | November 23, 2009
Shalom Eve,

What part of the country are you guys in? I am in middle TN. Deception is certainly on the rise. You are right; we must be diligent and covet godly discernment!

I do have a question, however. Why would you place Bill Cloud in the same boat with Perry Stone? While I never direct people to Perry Stone’s ministry, I do recommend Bill cloud. I’ve met him personally several times. He doesn’t teach what Perry teaches AT ALL———– though they are friends. Bill doesn’t compromise Torah for Perry or anyone else.

Bill used to be (before Torah) Perry’s head researcher in Hebraic roots. Obviously, when faced with the truth, Bill left that position and began his own ministry. He doesn’t keep any of the pagan holidays, traditions, etc. As a matter of fact, I know that he is a Torah keeper and a mighty advocate of the Messiah.

However, he does believe that there are many “fish” in the church pews. His ministry is devoted to showing Christians the fullness of the entire bible and the truth about all Israel. While many Messianic leaders and teachers shun the church completely, Bill does the opposite——- he dives right in their midst and using the word, persuades them of the truth of Israel, the Torah, and of course the living Torah!

He is sometimes a guest on Perry’s program (and some other Christian networks). This is not because he condones Perry’s theology, but to reach many Christian viewers, hopefully winning some to return to the beginning——— before the pollution of syncretism, tradition, and paganism. While Perry and some other networks may limit what he can say on air (I don’t know if this is true or not), he boldly proclaims truth in ALL of his teachings, books, conferences, etc.

I have no doubts about his integrity. He doesn’t beg for money, though buying his teachings does support his ministry. He freely gives to those that ask. His ministry also isn’t a 501 3c, so he isn’t restricted by government in what he teaches either.

I do hope that your only exposure to him wasn’t through Perry Stone. You can read/watch/listen for free to some of his teachings at waytozion.org and godslearningchannel.com and billcloud.com

Shalom again and Shavuah tov!!

Comment by Techiyah | November 24, 2009
Hi Techiyah,
We’re in the UK, but anytime you’re here you are very welcome.
The only challenge we have with Bill Cloud is that the people we know came to accept Perry as “kosher” because of his good relationship with Bill. They seem to think that if Bill works with Perry and appears on his shows and particularly says they are friends, he supports everything Perry says. This may be naive on there part but it is true. They have been led astray because of this association.
Personally, I like Bill and what I have heard of his teaching seems OK. He is not as well known as Perry over here and even that is mostly because of his appearances on Perry’s shows. All this seems to make people think they believe the same things. We do not promote Bill any more because of where we have seen this association take people. I think it is a shame we cannot do that, he has a lot to offer.
I suppose you know more about how it works for people in the USA. We have Friends in MS who go to Bill’s meetings and get a lot out of them. I suppose, for discerning people, that is OK, for babes and newcomwers to Hebrew roots etc. it can be dangerous. We need to teach people -especially our own flock- how to know meat from poison these days as never before.
We feel the church is in for a strong shaking in the near future and people will need to know sound doctrine to survive. Our responsibility is to help them get the tools they will need to test things for themselves. The best tool for that is Scripture. Whatever does not line up with that must be left behind and forgotten as we press forward in Him.
Do you have good fellowship outside the big meetings where you are, or are you a small group like us? We shall pray for you on Shabbat.
In Yeshua,
Chava

Comment by Eve | November 24, 2009
What a long thread! Sometimes hard to follow – just goes to show how divided the Protestant world is, greater than 22,000 distinct denominations – funny they all claim to teach the truth. And that’s based on “the Holy Spirit guides me.” Is the Holy Spirit, who is GOD, confused? I don’t think so.

To the innovations called “dispensationalism” and “the Bible Only” – these are MAN MADE TEACHINGS – and all of those who follow them are having an “ear tickle” time about them. Just ask yourselves this simple question, If I am to believe ONLY what is written in the Bible, where in the Bible does it say that? Nowhere is the answer – therefore, MAN MADE TEACHING.

About the Fathers of the Church – get into some history people. If your your house is built on the Rock – there is nothing to worry about is there. But be careful, because in the words of John Henry Newman, “To be deep in history is to CEASE TO BE PROTESTANT.”

For the Messianic Jews in the crowd, do you believe salvation is from the Jews? I do. So go to the website, http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com – very interesting information there. Keep the thread going – I can’t wait for the next episode.
In Jesus the Christ.

Comment by Luis | November 29, 2009
Way to Zion is an awsome site for free Messanic teaching. Bill Cloud, Brad Scott, Jim Staley, Monte Judah, and Rico Cortes are some of the great teachers. You won’t agree with all of them but they will make you put on your thinking hat and cause you to get into some deep things of God. None of these teachers ask for $$$. That is why they offer their teachings through this site for free.

Comment by follower of Yeshua | December 1, 2009
Perry Stone is the real deal. I used to attend his camp meetings in the early 90’s before he even hit tv. He used to attend churches for revivals, one of which I used to belong to. I come from a Catholic background, but was attending a Church of God church in Maryland. I went to one of Perry Stone’s camp meetings in Pigeon Forge Tennessee and let me say this. The Spirit of God moves in his services like you would not believe. I’ve NEVER EVER experienced anything like the move of God in churches I used to belong to, but I had an experience that went just like this. It was an evening service that started around 7:30 p.m. and there was lots of praise and worship going on. People were praying with their eyes closed, hands lifted high and then Perry was on the altar and he said, “The Spirit of God is here. If you want to catch the wave of God, put your hands up. He’s moving from the back row to the front.” Well I was in the first row with some friends and I had my hands lifted up with expectation of getting this wave, and I got hit with a shaking, tremoring feeling that moved all throughout my body. It felt so wonderful and I felt a warmth feeling like a glow inside of me that is hard to describe. From that moment on, I’ve had the move of God present in my life where other things happen that never used to happen. I received something special from God and I believe I was filled with the Holy Spirit that evening in Tennessee. It’s not cult like at all if that’s what anyone would assume. His services are pure worship and praise. Every preacher or pastor has his style of preaching. Perry’s style is prophetic teaching that is very deep and interesting. Just like Joel Osteen is a inspirational, build you up, make you feel good preacher. Nothing wrong with him either, but each has his own gift of preaching.

Comment by Dove2836 | December 3, 2009

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End Times Visions and Christian prophecy for the church and for the nations from a servant of God called to speak God’s word, bringing prophecies and prophetic words of revelation, warning of End Times apostasy and lukewarm Christianity, and trying to bring people’s hearts, minds and souls back to the Lord their God. For statement of faith see here.

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Christian prophecy for the church and for the nations from a servant of God called to speak God's word