End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

Christian prophecy for the church and for the nations from a servant of God called to speak God's word

Why Would A Christian Even Want To Pray At The Western Wall?

…. when they have free access to their Father in Heaven in and through the Lord Jesus Christ? And they are now the temple of the living God?

The trouble with Christian Zionism of the John Hagee CUFI kind promoting this kind of stuff is that it consistently undermines the gospel of Jesus.

From Charisma -

“Christians United for Israel (CUFI) is providing believers with the opportunity to place their prayers in the Western Wall without leaving home.

Prayers submitted to CUFI web site will be printed out, prayed over at the national office in San Antonio, sent to Jerusalem, and hand-delivered to the Western Wall.

Prayer is an integral part of CUFI, which prays daily for the peace of Jerusalem, the well being of the state of Israel, growth and development of Christians United for Israel and for those in authority, including those in governmental and spiritual positions. Personal prayer requests are also welcome.”

April 28, 2009 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | False Prophets, Israel, John Hagee, Messianic, Zionism | , , , | 56 Comments

56 Comments »

  1. Warning: Misunderstanding of God’s Dealings with
    Israel Could be Hazardous to the Church’s Health

    Within the Church, there are two predominant schools of thought concerning God’s relationship with Israel. First, we have those who advocate what is commonly referred to as “Replacement Theology.” This line of thinking asserts that as a result of repeated disobedience throughout Israel’s history and culminating in the general rejection and crucifixion of Christ, that the Church has now inherited the calling and blessings once bestowed upon Israel. The Church, therefore, has replaced natural Israel as the “New Spiritual Israel of God.” The other line of thinking is that God’s covenant with Israel has never been broken by God, and though Israel for the most part has been unfaithful, God remains faithful to His covenant with Israel as His “chosen people.” Furthermore, God has never revoked the promise of establishing the land of Israel as the “Jewish Homeland.” In 1948, after many centuries, God once again restored His promise to the Jewish people in establishing them as a sovereign nation in the land, generally considered to be “The Final Return.”

    As a result, we are to be fully supportive of both The State of Israel and increased immigration of the Jewish people back to The Land. Frankly, it is difficult to imagine how even a small number of theologians could hold to the view of Replacement Theology. One must hold a rather acute preconceived notion in order to have derived an interpretation such as this. It is just as doubtful that among numerous references, among them Romans 9, 10, and 11, can such a view be supported when approached with any reasonable degree of objectivity. A legitimate question might be, “If Israel can supposedly be replaced because of its disobedience, can the Church in turn be replaced because of hers?” On the other hand, many who subscribe to the other persuasion may be surprised at the supposition that the latter view is also fraught with serious pitfalls, having even greater negative implications for the Church as well as Israel.

    To those within the Church having a genuine love and burden for Israel’s salvation and national preservation, have we been premature in our coronation of Israel and excessive in our kudos pertaining to her accomplishments? Does our lowering of the standards for Israel make it easier to apply those same standards to the Church, encouraging the application of a cheaper standard leading to self-congratulations and complacency? Are the characteristics of present-day Israel consistent with those described in the Scriptures of a repentant people having been restored to The Land by God Himself, comprising a truly redeemed nation? And will the so-called “lovers of Israel” now boldly proclaimed by some, be ultimately exposed as having been nothing more than fleshly sentimentality when tested at the expense of one’s personal reputation or physical persecution?

    It is better that questions such as these be applied to “judge the thoughts and intentions of our hearts” now rather than later, before that day comes when we shall no longer have sufficient opportunity nor privilege of having our hearts examined, and if necessary, being brought to true repentance. In daring to ask these questions, we also dare to receive answers which may run contrary to our preconceived notions. But, in our quest to understand God’s dealings with Israel, we may also come to better understand God’s dealings with the Church. For in Israel we may come to see a truer reflection of the Church than we ever would have imagined, who made both groups into one. Therefore, we must pay particular attention, for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.

    In the first chapter of Genesis we see God’s original intention for man; to bear the image of God and to have dominion over the earth. When man sinned, his representation of the image of God became tainted, and as a result, he was driven out from the Garden of Eden, his primary habitation. Herein lies the first revelation of a spiritual law God established at the very beginning of creation, and it is eternal. God’s representative and intended counterpart acquired his rightful ownership to the land as long as he faithfully bore the image of God. When he did not, he was disqualified from his inheritance and driven out. Generations later, God, through the patriarchs, would raise up a corporate man, Israel, who would be called to bear the image of God as a nation and given a specific land as his home.

    It is critical to our overall understanding to note that due to their rebellion God allowed an entire generation of Hebrews to die in the wilderness prior to their entering “The Promised Land.” It was their offspring, a relatively untainted generation whom God would bring into that land. We must bear in mind that God never intended a corrupt, unredeemed people to take possession of, much less even to enter the land, prior to their redemption. It is simply inconsistent with the laws and ways of God. Salvation always precedes inheritance and not before. Neither, do we enter into Heaven prior to our salvation, but rather as a result and reward of our salvation.

    In Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, God in graphic detail elaborates on the severe consequences of disobedience to the children of Israel. If they would be faithful to God and His commandments they would enjoy blessings and security in the land. But, if they were unfaithful, among a host of various forms of punishment, they would be expelled from the land. Throughout Israel’s history, this spiritual law would hold true. Moreover, when God brought those who had been taken into Babylonian captivity back to the land of Israel as described in the Book of Ezra, it was not just everybody and anybody who could return. We read, Then the heads of fathers’ households of Judah and Benjamin and the priests and the Levites arose, even everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up and rebuild the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem (Ezra 1:5). The sum total of those who would return was merely a remnant of all those living in captivity at that time and was limited to those spiritually called, prepared, and qualified by God prior to their return.

    In Deuteronomy 30, God promises eventual restoration to the land, but please pay close attention to the order of things. The preconditions are as follows: So it shall become when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the Lord will restore you from captivity, and I will have compassion on you, and I will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you.

    In Ezekiel 20, God again bears witness along these same lines when He speaks of future restoration; and I shall purge from among you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I shall bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the Lord. In Ezekiel 37, He says, Then you will know that I am the Lord when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you in your own land. It is worth going back and reading these passages and other related Scriptures in their entirety, for it is consistently clear that God first prepares His people by bringing them into judgment: a purging and refining leading to godly sorrow which leads to true repentance and restoration, qualifying us for full inheritance.

    God’s ways are certainly not our ways. In God’s economy, death must precede life, the Cross must precede resurrection, and it was out of love that Jesus allowed His beloved Lazarus to die in order that he might experience resurrection life. What was initially perceived through human eyes as a needless death due to lack of compassion, proved to be an act of Divine love, as seen through eternal eyes. Interference with this process, even with the best of intentions, will often circumvent the ways and will of God. For we dare not give the Lord cause to speak these terrible words to us, “Get behind Me, Satan!” In our zeal to sustain life, we may unwittingly prevent real life and God’s purposes from being fulfilled to the one we truly love. Such is God’s dealings with Israel and the Church.

    As Israel and many of her well-intentioned supporters claim rightful inheritance to the land prior to and apart from godly repentance, so too many in the Church look towards a premature taking up of the Bride unto Christ. He longs for His Bride who has made herself ready, that He might present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless (Eph. 5:27). II Peter 3:11-12 exhorts us to holy conduct and godliness by which we can actually hasten the coming of the Lord. It should be clear from Scripture that for Israel it will require a proud and self-sufficient people brought to her knees and without hope as depicted in Ezekiel 37:11b, “Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.” She will be brought to a place of true godly repentance, leading to salvation. It may also mean that out of a true love for Israel, we will have to resist the natural response of, “This shall never happen to you!”, and allow God’s dealings to be carried through, having its perfect result…”

    To the Church, as with Israel, God says to us, Let us therefore be diligent to enter His rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience (Heb. 4:11). Israel and the Church are prophetically destined to enter their inheritance together. Their paths destined to converge, the process destined to be the same.

    Fred London

    Comment by Fred London | April 28, 2009

  2. >> Prayers submitted to CUFI website will be printed out, prayed over at the national office in San Antonio, sent to Jerusalem, and hand-delivered to the Western Wall. <<

    There is only one mediator THE LORD JESUS CHRIST? This is as bad as the catholics “confession box”.

    Praying for Israel is very commendable whatever ones ‘take’ on it is, but pleeeaaassse – these people must have so much time on their hands they don’t know what to do with it.

    Comment by Sylvia | April 28, 2009

  3. It’s a way of raising funds.

    Rather like God Tv had their prayer wall going on in their studio in Jerusalem last year.

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | April 28, 2009

  4. If I go to the CUFI website with my heartfelt prayer asking God to ‘bring them to their senses and repent’, I wonder if it would reach the Western Wall, or get hand-delivered to the nearest BIN.

    Comment by Sylvia | April 28, 2009

  5. God of the Bible is faithful to His Words.

    Ezekiel 37:12
    Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

    Ezekiel 37:21
    and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.

    God of the Bible did not do this because the Jews are righteous, nor because they are more loved than others. Basically the Jews have been gathered back home in unbelief.

    Ezekiel 36:32
    I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

    God of the Bible has gathered his chosen people home to Israel to prepare for the second coming of his Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Zionist movement is very colorful. The majority of them do not know their Messiah, who have always rebuked them, and loved them. He still loves and care for them.

    To pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem is neither better, nor worse that praying in your own bed, or anywhere else. You have missed the point. Christian Zionists would like to pray at the Western Wall as a sign our agapè support of Israel.

    I would like to thank your for this blog, with a lot of useful information. http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com

    Comment by ivarfjeld | April 28, 2009

  6. Maybe the prayer never gets to Jerusalem, as Hagee has his very own Western Wall on the grounds of cornerstone church which looks nothing like the actual western wall and is not a holy site.

    I will say this, that to this day I have had one prayer that was answered promptly prayed by a Jewish Man who is a believer in Jesus. And he prayed it at the Western Wall and placed the prayer request into the wall to be prayed over by the chief rabbi of Jerusalem.

    I did not buy into a gimmick at the time or a man that sensationalized the prayers of a Jew. Instead it was a request for prayer from man who is a Jew and prays at the wall each morning.

    Israel is now a marketing tool for the renewal and charismatics. Sadly I see Messianic’s in the land also influenced by these religious morons from the United States.

    Comment by Geoffrey | April 28, 2009

  7. Thank you Fred, Ivar, Geoffrey. For your great comments.

    I lived in Jerusalem. I prayed at the wailing wall.

    Yet, as the article correctly says,
    Why Would A Christian Even Want To Pray At The Western Wall?
    ..when they have free access to their Father in Heaven
    in and through the Lord Jesus Christ?
    And they are now the temple of the living God?

    For me, it was more an appreciation of the history, as
    written in the OT. A testiment of God.

    It is too bad, people go to a wall, or upside down Joseph,
    to get a prayer answered. They do not know Jesus.

    Yet there is a “Holiness” that permiates Israel.
    I walked gently. Observed. Watched.

    Do you know, that the crescent moon there is sideways?!
    It is.
    It is the biggest frown, in the sky, you have ever seen.
    Yikes! Scared me to prayer the rest of the week.
    (not at the wall)

    You would ‘think’ people would catch on, to the frown…

    Comment by randy | April 28, 2009

  8. to randy, Fred London et al

    this so-called “Israel” is NOT Israel.

    It is a mere COUNTERFEIT Israel, peopled by Ashkenazi Khazars from E.Europe who adopted talmudic judaism as their state religion circa 800 AD.

    Just as the so-called current version “church” is largely a false counterfeit of the true.

    Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | April 28, 2009

  9. Lawrence

    Who are the true Jews then?

    Are all people we know as Jews around the world Ashkenazi Jews?

    Comment by endtimespropheticwords | April 28, 2009

  10. Lawrence, that theory has been exposed as a an anti-semitic lie.

    Comment by anon | April 28, 2009

  11. Miriam

    There are 4 types of Jews (which include those goy who adopt Judaism as their own religion).

    1. Sephardic Jews who are true Middle Eastern folks, who trace their roots to Abraham via Sarah – step brothers to Arabs, who also had Abraham as their patriarch. Don’t forget Abraham was from Ur/Iraq, and descended from Shem, who is the patriarch of many people groups.

    2. Maranno Jews – who went to Spain ie Charlie Sheen, Estevez etc (actors).

    3. Negro Jews, Ethiopians -who also adopted Judaism as their own – but Karite Judaism which attempts to follow the Torah (but how? Since no more sacrifices are allowed lol)

    4. Ashkenazi Jews – who are largely atheistic, but follow different forms of Judaism ie Rabbinical, Orthodox, Reformed etc – again, they explain away the rituals of Leviticus etc. These are the MAJORITY – and are E.European/N.Asiatic. They dislike the other 3.

    Just google Khazaria and also Benjamin Freedman.

    Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | April 28, 2009

  12. What’s the most beautiful four letter word in the world?…[at least to the Charismanics and their leaders,,

    CASH! CASH! CASH!

    It’s no different than the midieval Catholics who sold indulgences and their prayers that sprung their loved ones from Hell itself…..for a price, of course.

    Rather than the Pope, you have the WALL…of course it is holy…just like kissing that blarney stone in Mecca.

    Comment by Thomas Watkins | April 28, 2009

  13. Lawrence,

    What are you saying? Cite your sources. I don’t understand your point. It almost sounds anti-Semitic.

    I dare you to say this to the face of the Jews, mostly Ashkenazi, whom I watched worshipping in the synagogue at Rosh Pina in the Galilee. I am told it is one of the most diverse gatherings of the Jews, with many different rabbinic schools represented, and I saw no difference in their worship. It was all equally reverent. I dare you to tell my sister-in-law and her family that they are counterfeit Jews. My nephew,in the IDF, recently in Gaza, is a counterfeit Jew?

    He is is Ashkenazi and last month married a Sephardic Jew from Yemen. I attended the wedding Shabbat, heard very beautiful worship from both communities (although I liked the soulful sound of the Sephardim’s singing. And their amazing dance at the wedding! The only difference I could see that mattered to the bride and groom was that he liked gefilte fish and she is disgusted with the idea of eating cold pickled herring. And I agree with her–her family’s fish at the Shabbat was far better. Spicy!

    So, do you think those differences are substantive? I think what you said was rather arrogant.

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 28, 2009

  14. The Jewish people are very colorful. They have come home to Israel from more than 100 nations. When I say Jewish, I would like to add that «Jews» are a mixed group of people, secular, religious and messianic.

    Just like there are «Christians» of different kinds. Some are truly born again, some are «false born again`s», and there are Christians who trust in traditions and culture.

    I hope all of them will be awaken by the Spirit, and do the will of God.(Matthew 7:21-23). Man shall live by faith in Christ alone, and It is not up to man to save anyone. The time and place the Holy Spirit makes a man born again is fully in the hands of Jesus of Nazareth.

    I was saved when I was 39 years old. I hope and pray that everyone in Israel shall see that Jesus is their Messiah. Both Jews, Atheists and Israeli Arabs. The Messiah shall first return in the clouds of Heaven, and than He shall touch down at the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Zaz 14:4).

    Greetings from a Christian Zionist.

    Comment by ivarfjeld | April 28, 2009

  15. “Lawrence, that theory has been exposed as a an anti-semitic lie.”

    lol

    the BIBLE then, is an “anti-semitic lie”?

    in Genesis

    10:1Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
    10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 10:4And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
    10:5 By these were the isles of the nations divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.”

    see who Askenaz descends from? NOT SHEM.

    “anti-Shemitism” can’t refer to Ashkenazis.

    Shem’s offspring settled in Arabia and Iraq.

    10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.
    10:22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.
    10:23 And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. 10:24And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber.
    10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
    10:26 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazar-maveth, and Jerah,
    10:27 And Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah, 10:28And Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba,
    10:29 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan.
    10:30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.
    10:31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.

    Sephar

    It is written after the enumeration of the sons of Joktan, “And their dwelling was from Mesha as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.” (Genesis 10:30) The Joktanites occupied the southwestern portion of the peninsula of Arabia. The undoubted identifications of Arabian places and tribes with their Joktanite originals are included within these limits, and point to Sephar, on the shore of the Indian Ocean, as the eastern boundary. The ancient seaport town called Zafar represents the biblical site or district.
    “A mountain of the East,” a boundary of the Joktanite tribes, Genesis 10:30. It is perhaps the same as Mount Sabber in Southwestern Arabia.
    Numbering, (Genesis 10:30), supposed by some to be the ancient Himyaritic capital, “Shaphar,” Zaphar, on the Indian Ocean, between the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.

    http://dictionary.crossmap.com/definition/sephar.htm

    “anti-Shemitic” lol.

    It SHOULD be “anti-Japhethic”.

    NB the word “Hebrew” comes from “Eber” the son of Salah.

    Abraham was an “Eberite” or “Eberew”…..

    And God prophesied after the flood that the Ashkenazi people would inhabit Israel:

    9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem.”

    Why did you think that the 911 terrorists were IMMEDIATELY id’d as “Arabs” lol….

    wake up

    Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | April 28, 2009

  16. What did Jesus say?

    In Matthew
    21:42 Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, [the Torah/Old Testament] The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

    In Galatians
    3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    ——————————-

    Oh btw, just ask to see a Chabad Lubavith talmud. It is online …. http://www.talmudblasphemy.com/

    ——————————-

    i hate shofars

    Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | April 28, 2009

  17. I vote for a new thread – Karen’s favourite meals including recipes :)

    Comment by jan(2) | April 28, 2009

  18. as a christian you shouldn’t be “anti”-anything..

    so if you are fine sittin on this anti-japhethic deal (lol lol haha so funny lol it’s not anti-semetic lol it’s anti-this lol lol–either way you are incredibly ignorant and a ginormous bigot) like yer thinkin its kool with j.c. than mebbe ya should re-think yer faith

    hitler would be proud of yer psuedo-theologoical arguements

    Comment by llllretchllll | April 28, 2009

  19. It is interesting that the term “replacement theology ” has cropt up. The question is who is teaching it? You will find that John Hagee is the one who is promilating it so that Christians will come to reject their own salvation in favour of Israel. While many will reject John Hagee they will accept his version of replacement teaching!

    Let me explain John Hagee is the one who claims that Jesus was never the messiah. So he is of the anti Chrisat.

    Now lets look at replacement teaching from a BIBLICAL BASIS. Does replacement exist in the New Testament? OK lets agree there is no repalacement. If never happened. So for the next few question we have to say NO .
    1 Did the New Testament “REPLACE” the old?
    2 Did Jesus “REPLACE ” animal sacrifice?
    If we answer NO to any of the above then you entire salvation disapears…gone. So some form of replacement had to have taken place.
    3 Did God ever in the Bible ever declare that the Physical Jews cease to be Gods people? Did he ever divorce them and send them packing ?

    carefully and pray about Jeremiah 3: and especialy verse 8
    Look up Hosea 1:9 , 2:23 Romans 9:25-26 1 Peter 29-10
    The question is in whom does these prophecies find their final fulfillement. Physical Judiasm or the church. Now if there is no replacement you will have to say the Jews. Sorry church you are out. But if we are to believe the Bible, we have to submit that the prophecy of the old and the new has to find fulfillement within the church of the redeemed. This does not detract from Israel place in prophecy or any future restoaration to God.

    But the blessing was always to find fulfillment in a new covenant. That included both Jews and gentiles.

    John Hagee points to Matthew 25: and Jesus discourse about “I was sick and you Fed me” to declare that Jesus never called gentiles his brethren. This is so Christians will send money to Hagee support Israel.

    The trouble is John Hagee does not know his Bible. In Hebrews 2:11-12 “Both he that sanctifieth and they who are sancitified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren”
    Are we sancitified by Jesus? If so we are his brethren. Sorry John Hagee you are wrong.

    Gal 3:14- Who recieves the blessing of Abraham today and on which basis? see also verse 29 “If yea be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise”

    Can it be sugested that we ought to reject this. That the church is not the true seed of Abraham? Sorry Paul you got it wrong.

    So were does this place the physical Jews today?
    God took them out as his people so he could bring them back under a new and better covenant. Remember the Gospel was preached to the Jew first and then us gentiles. The prophecy of replacement was never to exclude the Jews but to bring us gentile in. Hagee teaching on this is totaly back to front. God has never excluded the Jews from the New covenant. John 3:16 makes that obvious. But instead of a natural physical birth it had to be obtained in Christ by Faith, See also Hosea 10:1 “Israel is an empy vine”. Compare this with John 15: Jesus declares I am the true VIne” . So what was the unfruitful vine?

    Sadly , I am sorry to say this but many simply do not understand God agenda. Or even what the New Testament teaches.

    If there is no replacement then there is no salvation or hope for either Jew or gentile. It makes mockery of all that Jesus accomplished for the believer. It would rob the Christian of all blessings especially those that were prophesied from the Old to the New. The New Testament which includes the words of Jesus and Paul as being false.

    Titus 2: 13-14 “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous for good works” Look up the word “peculiar” in the strongs concordance and you will find that it means a ” a treasure above all other treasures”

    Replacement does not rob the Jews but imbraces us gentiles.
    Ephesians 2: 15 “having abolished in his flesh the enmity even the Law of commandments.. for to make in himself of two..one new man.” Who constitutes the two made into one? This refers to the Blessing contained in the New Covenant for all men Jew and Gentile. If we reject replacement then we must reject the New Testament.

    YOU CHOOSE!

    Comment by james | April 28, 2009

  20. Nearly all of the six million Jews exterminated in Europe during the Holocaust of WWII were Ashkenazi Jews. Hitler certainly regarded them as being Jews. Furthermore, do you honestly believe that bogus Jews would go to their deaths simply for being Jews knowing they really weren’t Jews? It is quite amazing how God continues to fulfill prophecy through a people He does not consider as being Jews. In that case, I suppose He must be confused as to who the real
    Jews are as well.

    Comment by Fred London | April 29, 2009

  21. For Lawrence,

    http://www.jewishpress.com/page.do/21499/The_Khazar_Myth_and_the_New_Anti-Semitism.html

    And there’s a lot more where that came from represented by a variety of sources.

    Comment by Fred London | April 29, 2009

  22. (Disclaimer: I’m biased as I’m Jewish with a brother living in Jerusalem.)

    Why would a Christian want to pray at the Western Wall?

    Because it’s part of our history. Messiah walked within these walls, and some of the great patriarchs of the Scriptures prayed at these walls. The Temple that housed the ark of the covenant was within these walls.

    Yes, we have free access to God through Jesus. But that does not mean we cannot go to a holy place — the Holy City of Jerusalem which Messiah walked and taught in — to pray to our Father. Nothing at all wrong about that.

    Comment by judahgabriel | April 29, 2009

  23. Mr Luprypa,

    Did you do a phrenological study on the Ashkenazi and the Sephardim, and the Maranno and the Negro Jews? To determine who was a real Jew and who was not? As Hitler did through his psuedo-scientists at the death camps? It would complete your psuedo-theological study.

    Your comments are beyond the pale. I expected a retraction. I can see I was much too charitable in my thinking towards you. Now, I dare you to say what you said to this group gathered at the Hall of Names at the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum in Jerusalem, last Friday on the Day of Remembrance. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7212063.stm

    Some of their grandmothers, grandfathers, fathers and sisters and cousins must be pictured on that wall. Or their sons. Tell them their loved ones who were gassed and the bodies stacked like cordwood to be burned in the Nazi death camps were counterfeit Jews. Or perhaps, like Ahmenawhackjob of Iran, who made similarly offensive comments about the Jews to a U.N. convention on Racism on that somber day, you deny the Holocaust too?

    “I hate shofars!” How cute. I hate insensitive comments that chillingly echo the Adversary who from of old has always hated the Jews. When I hear slurs like that, and expressions of protest are made, (yes they were much too mild, but I hadn’t read the rest of your garbage), and no apology is made for those offenses, I think…”They must be counterfeit Christians.”

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 29, 2009

  24. jan(2),

    You are a sweetie!

    I wish I had the heart to post a recipe for that delicious Wedding Shabbat meal. I will tell you about it instead, it will encourage me to remember. We ate in a beautiful home overlooking the fields of Galilee that were blooming wildly in blazing springtime exuberance. We ate the most delectable food, and drank the finest wines that I have ever tasted, in an atmosphere permeated by the greatest conviviality. There was such a great lot of real joy there, and the only tension between Ashkenazim and Sephardim a kind of collegial rivalry as each family sang the traditional songs of the bencher, the Sabbath ritual. Same words, different tunes. Like college fight songs: whose was better? It was great fun! We spoke thoughtful words of blessing over the bridal pair. They were radiant. It was all so beautiful, and deeply moving to me. If this awesome meal I had the privilege to share is a shadow of what is to come at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb… the real day will be magnificent! Every nation, every tribe all gathered at last in an extravagantly beautiful heavenly home in a lovely ambiance of only blessing and encouragement…too wonderful for words. If this Wedding Shabbat was only a foreshadowing, it will be worth every sorrow we suffer, every trial we endure, to share that Supper at last with our beautiful Bridegroom. Persevere to the end, Saints; it will all be so glorious!

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 29, 2009

  25. This Christian did tuck a note into a stone in Israel! I wanted to leave a praise of the deepest gratitude, so I left it there in the ruins of the Fifth century Synagogue in Capernaum, which was built over the place where Jesus stood and taught and performed His greatest miracles. I did tuck a note in the cracks of the pillar where previous pilgrims had left prayers. When I stepped into those ancient ruins, nobody there but us, I wept. The Lord brought this scripture to mind, and this is what I wrote to Him in praise, and as a testimony to what He has done in my life. From Isaiah 61:

    “You have given me beauty for ashes,
    The oil of joy for mourning
    The garment of praise for the
    Spirit of heaviness;
    That we may be called trees of righteousness
    The planting of the Lord,
    That You may be glorified.”

    What a wonderful birthday gift the Lord gave me that day! For 26 years now, I have followed Him, and I have learned: He does return to us all that the locusts have eaten, in wonderfully fitting ways.

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 29, 2009

  26. Karen,

    I am GLAD you posted your little prayers where you did.
    A Christian should be able to pray whenever and whereever they want. Stay FREE

    Comment by Paula | April 29, 2009

  27. KAREN

    I have never been to Israel (would LOVE to one day) and only ever heard of the Western Wall as being the ‘wailing’ wall. This conjures up all sorts of pictures in the mind about people wailing, but I was unaware of actually placing prayers into the cracks.
    Please enlighten me if you can, what happens to the thousands of prayers that must be deposited. Do they disintergrate with the passage of time or are they removed, if so, what happens to them? Your have aroused a genuine interest for me about this.

    Btw I LOVED your testimony of your visit, thank you.

    Comment by Sylvia | April 29, 2009

  28. The only reason I pray at the Western Wall is that I happen to be in Jerusalem at the time and I can pray for those around me who really need Yeshua in their lives. There is no point in sending prayer there, they need to be directed to our Lord in Heaven who can hear and answer them wherever we pray.

    Comment by Eve | April 29, 2009

  29. Sylvia, the prayers of the people are removed from time to times by menfolk who are dedicated to the job. They are reverently removed and stored in a similar manner to all the well worn and disintergrating ‘holy script’ used by Jews. Usually in some crypt or place that has been dedicated for this purpose. I was fascinated by the reverence that these people held for the written word of God and the written prayers to God.

    Comment by shoshana | April 29, 2009

  30. Thanks for that info. Shoshana. Interesting. God Bless.

    Comment by Sylvia | April 29, 2009

  31. In 1994 my wife & I went to Israel for our Silver Wedding and didn’t go on a organised tour but simply drove & stayed at kibbutzim. Many things stick in my memories of that amazing land & one particular one was standing by the Western Wall beside a young Israeli soldier. With his ‘kippur’ on his head & his Uzi assault rifle on his shoulder, fervency in prayer had a new meaning after seeing him. This was not the usual ritualistic ‘davening’ praying (rocking back & forth) but something that came from his heart. There was an amazing sense of reverence in the whole area which made me just pray with thanksgiving to our Lord & Father, but also that the Jews would realise that Yeshua IS Messiah and turn to Him. Now cut to two so-called Christian sites, Gethsemane & Church of the Holy Sepulchre; to say they were dire is an understatement. Cattle markets were tranquil in comparison! I flatly refused to enter as there was absolutely no sense of God’s presence for me in either. The Garden Tomb, whether it really is the site of Jesus’ resurrection or not, was a wonderful place of God’s presence and it came home to me that God’s people take His presence with them. “Your Kingdom come on earth” won’t be totally fulfilled until Jesus returns in Glory, but everywhere His children are, there His presence is. Another place I refused to enter was the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, but I believe God gave me a ‘picture’ as I looked around the upper floor. It was dusty, rusty & totally lacking any sense of life & the picture came to me of a snake’s shed skin. It has all the markings & shape of a snake but is totally empty & lifeless. That said it all, I’m afraid.
    I once heard Judaism described as ‘Not wrong, just incomplete’ & there is a good deal of truth in that statement. Unlike any other faith or religion, we worship the same God who offers reconciliation through faith to mankind. I weep for the hideous distortion of Jesus shown to the Jews by the so-called Christian Church for many centuries. We can’t repent for things we haven’t actually done but we can show remorse for what was done in Jesus’ name.
    Like you, Karen, I found the Synagogue at Capernaum one of the most moving places as it is one of the very few of which we can actually say, “Jesus must have stood there!”
    Our last but one night is Israel was spent on an Orthodox kibbutz and we were able to have a good time of discussion &, yes, fellowship with some of the folk there. They allowed us to look around their synagogue & there was a sense of peace & continuity with our faith there. We have been inside other places such as mosques & there was no comparison. They were dead, ritualistic & had no sense of having anything to do with Jesus.
    Thank you, Karen, for the gentleness & strength of your posts & you testimony of God’s faithfulness. He certainly restored my ‘locust years’!

    Comment by Ian Hutchinson | April 29, 2009

  32. llllretchllll,

    Good smokin ‘em out. (lol, lol!). You my home girl.

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 29, 2009

  33. Is the title of this post a question or a ’statement’?
    The Western Wall (aka the Wailing Wall, but all Jews know that is at the tax office), has in my experience a sense of timelessness, reverence and purpose despite all the mixture and motives. Being there during a festival is an experience.
    However it should for a true believer cause their heart to be gripped with a desire for the fulfilment of God’s purposes of which the national salvation of the jewish people is central. It will also create a sombre reality for the future sufferings of that people before God has them ready to inherit the messianic kingdom. Also the need for the gentiles to come to maturity (fulness) in order to be the end time expression of mercy to them in that suffering and how they will see they messiah in the faces of those they least expect(we cannot even show love and mercy to our ‘own’ often nevermind a the jewish people who will not readily accept that which we will seek to give. They are enemies of the gospel for our sake (their hostility should provoke us to grow up and get real so that in time we will be fitted to be the provocation to them. God’s ways are beyond ours.)
    A Rabbi was told at the Wall that the Jews would come to revelation of Messiah through the gentiles. He replied in typical jewish posture ” We know this, we just haven’t seen anything we are jealous of yet”
    This cuts to the heart of our christianity.

    Last May I was flipping between Lakeland and the 60th Anniversary celebrations from Jerusalem on God TV (don’t normally watch it)and I heard the Lord clearly say ” You are seeing the appearing of the counterfiet church and the counterfeit Israel”. The latter was a shock, not the former, as I have been in an around Isreal friendly things for many years.
    The counterfeit sentimentality and peace peace promises by christains to Israel is a lie. They have a future death ahead of them and then thank God the promised resurection for the blessing of the world. The ministry of Jesus will yet be played out in his own people and most christians will turn away and lose their love as scripture says when it doesn’t pan out like they think (ever increasing glory from now on in).

    I have prayed at the Wall, on Temple Mount and in the Holy Scepulcre and elsewhere. I have been in some dark places throughout the Islamic and Catholic worlds particularly. The HS Church in my humble and subjective opinion is the darkest place I have ever been, void of life and truth. If Jerusalem is a haunt for every foul spirit and unclean thing, a good bunch of then live there. (Of couse Islam and Ultra Orthodox Judaism are very dark in nature too).
    Ian, I agree.
    HS and Garden Tomb are catagorically nothing to do with Jesus. GT is peaceful but so are many quiet spots in an intense and bustling city.
    Jesus was crucified in a tree and raised according to the scriptures on Mount of Olives. The Jews can rightly say the Good Friday and Easter Sunday Jesus of the other places has nothing to do with them as only one place reveals him as the fulfilment of the once for all sin sacrifice.
    For anyone interested why, and what ‘Golgotha’ really means and where it was read the following articles by my Swedish friend Lars Enarson
    http://www.thewatchman.org/en/articles.php
    If ever in Jerusalem he runs mini tours which really get to the bottom of things. (most guides just give christians what they want to hear even though the guides know otherwise).
    For a better sense of what God is doing in Jerusalem, spend time in the Jersalem of Jesus Day, Davids’s city national park. Amazing discoveries continue there.

    Comment by Vic | April 29, 2009

  34. Euronews footage of Jerusalem Wall Cleaning

    Comment by Geoffrey | April 29, 2009

  35. Thank you so much Karen and Ian for sharing so wonderfully. I’ve not been to Israel but for five years or so have danced with a Davidic dance group and we have often said that it would be a dream to come true for us to go and dance there.
    Karen you have really good writing skills – ever thought of writing a book – in your spare time of course.

    Comment by jan(2) | April 29, 2009

  36. I think you saw the larger picture when you traveled to Israel. Many of the Christian sites are so-called christian sites. I also find that in Israel the christian sites are usually marketed in a western way and are in no way connected to the faith. Even the christian church whether it be Catholic or Greek have completely cut off any Jewish Identity. The Jewish Sites, the synagogues and the biblical lands are the true historic sites of the faith. I think when we encounter a Jew, especially in prayer and worship from the heart a piece of Gods nature is revealed to us and we do grow in a greater understanding on God’s heart concerning the Jewish People and his relationship and longing for them.

    Comment by Geoffrey | April 29, 2009

  37. Ian Hutchinson,

    Oh, it is good to hear your voice again; you are so wise and astute in your observations…especially when they agree with mine! I felt exactly the way you did about the Christian religious sites in Israel–they are some of the darkest places I have ever been. Capernaum was the cleanest, and I was relieved it was so, because I was with my orthodox brother-in-law, and he had never been there. He was surprised at the “good taste” exhibited by the Catholic Church, which is built over the archeological digs going on into Peter’s house there. It is modern and there are no idolatrous statues of the Virgin and no gruesome crucifixes. Maybe the Catholics are growing in cultural sensitivity. What am I saying?! The Pope will meet with Arafat, but not declare Israel a State? Still Anti-Semitic, I think. So when we went to the Basilica of the Annunciation in Naz Rat (I like its Hebrew name better—it sounds like the nasty place it is. Truly, nothing good comes out of it but Jesus.) I was embarrassed by the usual religious trappings and then deeply shaken by the mosaic donated by the American Catholic Church depicting Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception. Seeing how particularly wicked she appears from beneath, with awful metallic claw-like hands protruding from the wall, and a look of the deepest scorn on her face, I was prepared to agree with Vince– America is Mystery Babylon, for we made her monstrous goddess. See for yourself :: http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/nazareth-basilica-of-annunciation-pictures/slides/madonna-usa-cc-jpatokal.htm

    So, after that unpleasant experience, we stayed well away from most of the sites you mentioned. The only redeeming factor of the Basilica is the the archeological excavations ongoing there, giving evidence that the nativity stories are not apocryphal. My friend, who is a Messianic Jew living in Jerusalem, and who subscribes to the “Biblical Archeological Review”, says that praying for those excavations all over Israel is a matter of the deepest concern to her. It is as hotly contested, as is the Genesis account for creation, and for those same reasons. Is the Bible a reliable historical document? She rejoiced recently to read that a seal linked to David’s reign was providentially found at what may be one of David’s summer palaces in Jerusalem. Before, the biblical accounts of him were dismissed, and he was thought to be a minor warlord, thus ruling out the Messianic foreshadowing. I love good biblical sleuths! I love sound Biblical science!

    Hallelujah! Thank you, Lord, for the prayerful eyes of the Christian archeologist who found it, the shaft of light shining on it during one of the examinations required before any building is done there. There are a lot of cranes all over the city –please keep these hidden treasures from being forever covered in cement! Thank you Lord, in Y’shua’s name, Amen.

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 29, 2009

  38. Last May I was flipping between Lakeland and the 60th Anniversary celebrations from Jerusalem on God TV (don’t normally watch it)and I heard the Lord clearly say ” You are seeing the appearing of the counterfiet church and the counterfeit Israel”. The latter was a shock, not the former, as I have been in an around Isreal friendly things for many years.
    The counterfeit sentimentality and peace peace promises by christains to Israel is a lie. They have a future death ahead of them and then thank God the promised resurection for the blessing of the world. The ministry of Jesus will yet be played out in his own people and most christians will turn away and lose their love as scripture says when it doesn’t pan out like they think (ever increasing glory from now on in).

    @@@@@@@@@@VIC

    Please share more

    Comment by Geoffrey | April 30, 2009

  39. Here is the reverse of the question above:

    Why would a Christian pull another pilgrim’s prayer from between some sacred stones in Israel and read it?

    That is exactly what this God-Follower did! I confess to the deed, but I plead ignorance of the reverence with which the prayers are gathered from the Western Wall. I would never use my liberty to stumble another, and I would not have done this if I had known; as I would have feared offending my orthodox B.I.L., before whose shocked gaze the deed was done. Now I understand better why he shook his head in disbelief. Now I think I understand what he said later, at the end of a nearly perfect day in my life. It was a wonderful anniversary of my spiritual birth.

    Remember before you judge me too harshly for my nosiness, that Capernaum is a different Christian heritage site. It has little of the heavy Catholic mojo that is usual at these places. There was a freedom reigning there. I felt its welcome embrace immediately as I entered, and I am certain of this now: I was Being Led by the Spirit of the Living God as I pulled a prayer from a pillar and read it. You heard me, I READ it. And I was overcome with emotion, and for a second time at that site, I wept. I murmured a Hebrew “Amen” (I have never before pronounced it that way) and very reverently folded it up and tucked it back in its place.

    B.I.L., as interested as I am about human nature, and doing his own anthropological study of the strange habits of the born-agains, curious ofthe “Amen”, and the accompanying emotion, asked what the note said. I choked out, “that you would establish my children, O Lord.”, and stumbled off to collect myself. That satisfied him, as any parent would know the tangled emotions that accompany such a prayer.

    What he did not know is that the scripture from which this prayer is drawn sits framed on my dresser:
    Isaiah 54:13-14, which promises, “ALL your children shall be taught by the Lord, And great shall be the peace of your children. In righteousness you shall be established.” It was hand-written on beautiful hand-made paper, with an eight-fronded maple leaf, created by a sister in the Lord who knew nothing of my situation, as even I did not have a clue of the gathering storm. In Capernaum the Lord was underlining a promise He made to me years and years before,in a time when I would have never dreamed that I would have trouble believing that ALL (she even underlined “all”) my children would be established. When I agreed with this secret prayer, I provided succor to a sister I shall never meet save in Heaven. We are one big family, and we get to know each other’s business, when our Father permits. What the locusts have eaten is most often returned through the kind acts of our brethren.

    Later, I was contentedly cooking in their kosher kitchen. After seeing my shocked face when I learned each individual rice grain must be sorted (to ensure no bugs are eaten) and giving the tedious task to a nephew, as I unthinkingly murmured, “I am so glad I only have to wash the rice!” BIL, not offended, said matter-of –factly “I see your freedom. And I respect it.”

    It seemed good to just smile, and thank God. Oh, that the respect would grow, and through the Spirits’ doing, grow toward envy of the freedom we enjoy in Christ! .

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 30, 2009

  40. jan(2)

    How encouraging of you to say that. I needed to hear it, I have always dreamed of being a writer, and if I thought people were still reading books, I would think it is a good use for my stretched hours. I like the immediacy of posting on the internet, and the diverse population I communicate with. So much less stuffy than what I dreamed of being–a professor of literature, teaching and writing.

    And I am working on something right now–tentatively titled “Kay-Bees At-Home Holy Land Experience.” with internet links. One of its features is “My Great Big Fat Jewish Wedding” and here you could be very helpful to me. I need footage of great Israeli Folk dancing, what you could do communally at a wedding, and if you know of good links, that would be great. A folk dancing primer for the guests invited would be perfect. You could get my email from Miriam. Your post helped me where the piece is weakest. So that was the Spirit speaking, sister!

    Look here for your invitation, beloved! We’re gonna have a wedding Feast, big enough to feed them all… I want you all along on the tour bus to the Holy Land!

    I would appreciate prayers on my behalf. There is an evangelistic component, especially with the invitation. Lots of interference, like a low-grade Wannabe a Migraine since Sunday. But I am so excited! You all should have such a wedding trip! So I’m going to share! It will be fun, and I hope, inspiring.

    Comment by Karen Butler | April 30, 2009

  41. Karen – I will pray for you as you work on your book – and will try to see what I can find to help. Miriam – if you could forward the e mail address that would be great – thanks so much…

    Comment by jan(2) | May 1, 2009

  42. @Karen Butler

    People try to make the point that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews. So Israel today is not the Israel mentioned in historic text. Some go as far as claiming that Israel today and Zionist Jews are counterfeit Jews.

    People also try to blame Israel’s foreign policy on Ashkenazi leaders who they claim don’t look eastern so should not really be living in that part of the world.

    People also refer to Ashkenazi as Ashke-nazis.

    Comment by Geoffrey | May 1, 2009

  43. No, jan(2) not a book!

    A grand virtual tour of Israel ending with a blowout party!

    All appearing on these web pages. With links! And by popular demand, recipes. My present to you all, because we need to remember how all this suffering will end, in a joyous celebration…so worth the wait!

    I was thinking it would be even funner to have footage of your troupe, and although you can still remain anonymous, I will be able to pick you out. You will have the best form, and the most joyful smile.

    I picked out my brother-in-law from a picture when he danced as a youth with a troupe like yours. He had the most intense stance. Even though he was unrecognizable without his beard, I knew it was him. Just caught my eye, and I think you would be like that.

    You would have loved to see his ecstatic dance before the bridal couple, lifted up in their chairs! My husband said he thought of that song in Zephaniah, “He will rejoice over you, with shouts of Joy!” It was a sight to see.

    Comment by Karen Butler | May 1, 2009

  44. Karen, this has a good feel about it so different from the false pushing of Jewish feasts as being relevant for Christians today. There are times to link into the feasts. I was speaking about the Last Supper just before Easter & I looked at the significance it would have had for Jesus & the Twelve. There is so much imagery in the Seder Plate which has continuity for us today & application to our Christian lives & witness. We took communion using unleavened bread & I made some ‘haroset’ to remind us of what would have been eaten at the Last Supper as well as the bread & wine.
    One thing I discovered when preparing my sermon was that, in Jesus’ time & until the destruction of the temple, the was a fifth question asked,usually, by a child:- Why do we have only roasted meat tonight?
    The answer was:
    The Passover Lamb had to be roasted whole, not boiled and no bones broken.
    All took part—not just priests or men.
    I realised the significance of that question passing away was simply that Jesus took that place for all and the Temple became obsolete.
(Ex 11: 9)
    In a similar way the Yom Kippur is no longer relevant as Jesus paid once for all mankind.
    I could go on, but I find the festivals & feasts interesting as foreshadowing the perfect work of Jesus, but now they are only foreshadows as the Lamb came, was slain & gloriously rose again!
    I look forward to seeing your ‘Holy Land experience” & pray it will succeed (with no migraines!)

    Blessings,

    Ian

    Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 1, 2009

  45. Karen – Oh I see now – silly me.
    Yes, I do have a joyful smile when I dance but so do all my other friends!
    We are learning a presentation dance at the moment and one of our leaders was watching and said what a good idea it would be to video it so we could all see it so maybe it’s possible to find someone to do that. I don’t know yet.

    Shouts of Joy
    and Victory resound
    In the tents
    of the Righteous
    of the Lord

    The Lord’s right hand
    Has done mighty things for us
    The Lord’s right hand
    Is lifted High.

    Comment by jan(2) | May 2, 2009

  46. so how i see it there’s a huge dif between “tradition” an “superstition” an as long ya don’t muddy tha waters–keep ya faith bein whut seperate tha two..
    yeah ya should be alright

    p.s.
    MY MOM IS COOLER THAN YER MOM
    never back down cuz tha underground jus don’t stop
    XOXO

    Comment by llllretchllll | May 3, 2009

  47. WE’RE the underground, Sweetie.

    Comment by Charley | May 3, 2009

  48. @@@@@@@@@@VIC

    Please share more

    Comment by Geoffrey | April 30, 2009

    Will do when back home. What’s up with the @’s

    Comment by vic | May 3, 2009

  49. Ian,
    These are never called Jewish feasts in scripture but Feasts of the Lord or My Feasts. Significantly different

    “In a similar way the Yom Kippur is no longer relevant as Jesus paid once for all mankind”

    Au contraire.
    This is the clearest teaching on what Messiah is currently doing in heaven while we await his return from the heavenly tabernacle so is vitally relevant.
    All the feasts have a future dimension to be fulfilled and especially the autumn ones all about the second coming.
    Please don’t miss out on the teaching God has given.
    There is far more than for demonstration puposes or a teaching aide. As with all God’s word the deepest blessings are in the doing of it (in Christ of course).

    Comment by vic | May 3, 2009

  50. Vic, on the cross Jesus cried out, “It is finished!” and the word used ‘tetelesta’ was that written across bills at that time meaning ‘Paid in full.’ The veil in the Temple was torn from heaven to earth & the annual sacrifice of the paschal lamb was obsolete. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach that Jesus is still doing anything of the work of the cross. Interceding for us, yes, but He paid ‘once for all’ at Calvary. Nothing about defeating Satan in Hades between Calvary & the Empty Tomb can be found in Scripture; only in the Kenyon & Hagin etc teaching is it promulgated.
    Of course they would never be called Jewish Feasts in Scripture as the NT was written almost completely by Jews who were familiar with the annual cycle of the feasts. It would be a tautology for them to do so.
    The Feasts show us how God has dealt with & guided His people over the centuries and show us how we can expect to be loved by Him. They don’t, however, have to be followed today; in fact the Letter to the Hebrews was written to make them realise the old way had gone as Jesus was totally sufficient in His life, death & resurrection.

    Blessings,

    Ian Hutch

    Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 3, 2009

  51. “WE’RE the underground, Sweetie.” so true, so true

    We’re the real SOUL REBELS

    We’re the ADVENTURER’S

    we’re the love CAPTURER’S

    See the morning light?

    (it’s all the tender love of the Father, poured out on His

    little llllretchllll, XOXOXO)

    Is that the happy rabbis pulling up to this blog? No, it’s the Old Crow Medicine Show, they think you must be blue, (me I’m a workin’ mom, I got work to do…)

    Comment by Karen Butler | May 4, 2009

  52. I mean I’m a LIVIN’ mom

    ( and its only cuz of you Jesus, all praise to you!)

    and I LOVE the work I do!!! XOXOXO

    Comment by Karen Butler | May 4, 2009

  53. “@@@@@@@@@@VIC

    Please share more”

    (sound of CRASHING CHORDS…in stride two guys in togas, clutching bacon )

    First Greek: Did sombody say “The Grecian Imposition??? NOBODY says the Grecian Imposition!!! That’s never to be spoken of!!! Never, never, never!! (To the second Greek): Bring out the rashers of bacon!!

    Second Greek: (horrified) Not the rashers of bacon!!

    First Greek, (a gleam in his heretical eye): Yes, fry it up!
    Lots of crispy bits! Make him smell it!

    Vic: NO, NO! Not the crispy bits! I can’t take it! I won’t talk to Geoffry, I promise! I promise I’ll be silent, NO,
    NO. I can’t take it anymore…I smell bacon!!! AAAAAGGHH!

    (To be continued….)

    Comment by Karen Butler | May 4, 2009

  54. …and the happy mommy, satisfied her duty is done, pulls away in her battered white fifteen seat passenger van….

    Comment by Karen Butler | May 4, 2009

  55. Ian,
    Agree with most of what you said.
    However, even though the cross was once for all time, just like the High Priest took the blood of the sacrifice into the Holy of Holies to be accepted before the throne, Jesus is forever presenting himself (that is the sufficiency of the sacrifice of himself) before the throne in heaven which is what Hebrews is saying. He will soon come out of that place and bring salvation to all those that are waiting for him.
    Yom Kippur is being fulfilled and will be fulfilled in totality. It would be of no small benefit to the church to engage in a yearly picture of this considering the generally woeful understanding of the person and ministry of Christ among pew dwellers.
    Telelestai – ‘it is finished’ or better ‘it is accomplished’is of course is a quote from Psalm 22 (Jesus did not cry out in agony in greek!)as was verse 1 at the start of his time being crucified.
    Psalm 22:31[A final generation] will come and proclaim [God’s] righteousness to people not yet born, for He has accomplished it (i.e., salvation)!
    This corresponds to what I have pointed out in Hebrews 9:28
    ’so also Christ, having been offered once to bear [or, take away] the sins of many, will appear a second time without [reference to] sin to [bring] salvation to the ones eagerly waiting for Him!’
    Jesus was speaking of the salvation that would be made known to those yet to come and especially a last generation that would see all things fulfilled.
    For Jesus, the quintessential prophet, to cry out a statement of present acomplishment at his death is the same as when God speaks or all his prophets in history making statements in the present as an absolute certainty of future fulfilment.
    Scripture says the feasts are a shadow of what is still yet to come and not what ‘has come’as some translations say showing the translators prejudice.
    Jesus is totally sufficient in His life, death & resurrection. Amen

    Comment by Vic | May 4, 2009

  56. I should have also added preachers as well as pew dwellers a the latter get spoonfed by the former.

    Comment by Vic | May 4, 2009


Leave a comment

« Previous | Next »