Paul Washer on Joel Osteen and Certain Other Preachers in The Church « End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

Paul Washer on Joel Osteen and Certain Other Preachers in The Church

This is so hot it sizzles.

May 15, 2009 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | False Prophets, Joel Osteen, Paul Washer, Prosperity Gospel/Seed Faith, Pulpit Pimps, Word of Faith | christianity, church, Faith, religion | 194 Comments

194 Comments »

Amen!!

Comment by Ruitje | May 15, 2009
I’ll copy my comments from another blog:

While I agree with the content of the video, I must say that I don’t care for his display of anger. Yes, I do believe in righteous anger; but, I believe he is losing some of his potential audience by his manner. I think the delivery would’ve been better if Washer traded the anger (beating his fist on the podium and raising his voice) for a broken heart of compassion. But, maybe it’s just me.

Comment by Craig | May 15, 2009
I think he’s right. Just wish he didn’t seem so mean.

Comment by graceisenough | May 15, 2009
Great vid. I love Paul Washer. Thanks.

Comment by Faulty | May 15, 2009
Do you minister in N. Carolina somewhere? We are planning a
vacation the last week in June, and we may go to N. Carolina. I feel in my spirit that I need to be in one of your meetings I don’t know why. Lynn Brewer

Comment by Lynn Brewer | May 15, 2009
Good passionate message but note there are those who note error in the lordship salvation doctrine such as David J. Stewart:

Paul David Washer is a false prophet, a member of the apostate Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), who teaches Lordship Salvation. Here’s a one hour video sermon where Mr. Washer brainwashes a group of 5,000 youths to believe that they cannot be saved unless they stop living in sin. Like it or not, salvation is a free gift which does not require self-righteous works. Don’t Mess with the Gospel.

Paul Washer makes many good statements, and he is certainly correct about the fake Christianity and apostasy in America. However, he makes the deadly error of confusing the FRUIT of repentance with the ROOT of repentance.

Washer is adamantly clear that a person is not saved who doesn’t have a drastic turnabout in their lifestyle. Yet, the Bible is filled with believers who sinned horribly; such as, Noah, Lot, Jacob, Judah, Samson, David, Solomon, Jonah, Peter, Ananias and Sapphira and the carnal church at Corinth.

Please read the best explanation I’ve ever read concerning the Gospel and repentance, by Pastor Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951). Clearly, Ironside taught a Free Grace view of the Gospel. Consider further the following quote by Dr. Ironside…

“The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past …

Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.”

SOURCE: Harry A. Ironside, from the sermon: What Is The Gospel?

Also, Dr. John R. Rice, founder of the Sword of the Lord, made the following excellent statement in his Gospel tract, What Must I Do To Be Saved . . .

“The change in your heart, sinner, is God’s part and you may be sure He will attend to that. Your part is to simply believe in Him. Whatever else is necessary in your eternal salvation, the Lord attends to when you trust in Him, or believe in Him.”

SOURCE: What Must I DO To Be Saved, by Dr. John R. Rice

That is what the Bible teaches. This is quite different from what Paul Washer teaches. It’s not what you’re doing that gets you to Heaven, it’s where you’re looking. Look to Jesus! Isaiah 45:22, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.” Kindly said, Paul Washer is doctrinally messed up.

Biblical Salvation is Without Works

To no surprise, Paul Washer never once mentions salvation as being the “free gift” of God in his sermon. Yet that is exactly what it is called in Romans 5:15. Mr. Washer wrongly defines “repentance” as a ceasing from living in sin BEFORE and AFTER salvation. This effectively makes eternal life a reward and not a gift.

Paul Washer’s speaks double-talk . . .

What you need to know is that salvation is by faith, and faith alone in Jesus Christ. And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance — a turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God loves, a growing in holiness and a desire — not to be like Britney Spears, not to be the like world, and not to be like the great majority of American Christians; but to be like Jesus Christ. [emphasis added]

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

That is a false Gospel. In one statement Paul Washer says that we are saved by faith alone; but then in the next statement he subtly requires giving up one’s sinful lifestyle to be saved. This is not faith alone. The Bible is clear that salvation is without works. Romans 4:5,6, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.”

According to Paul Washer’s thinking the church congregation at Corinth wasn’t saved, because they lived in horrible sin. Yet, Paul calls them “babes in Christ” in 1st Corinthians 3:1. In Romans 12:1, Paul begged the believers at Rome to surrender their lives to God, “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” They were saved, but they hadn’t presented their bodies to God “a living sacrifice” yet. Look at the carnal church at Corinth! They were suing each other (1st Corinthians 6:6), eating meats offered to idols (1st Corinthians 8:12), allowing fornication within the church (1st Corinthians 5:1), showing up drunk at the Lord’s Supper (1st Corinthians 11:21), et cetera. The carnal church at Corinth is proof that Lordship Salvation is a lie. I am not trying to justify believers who live in sin. I am simply saying that our salvation is not dependent upon giving up our sins.

What is Biblical Repentance?

Pastor Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951) correctly understood repentance . . .

“Repentance is the very opposite of meritorious experience. It is the confession that one is utterly without merit, and if he is ever saved at all it can only be through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, ‘who gave himself a ransom for all.’ Here is firm footing for the soul who realizes that all self-effort is but sinking sand. Christ alone is the Rock of our salvation.” (Harry A. Ironside; Except Ye Repent, pg. 36)

Clearly, Ironside taught a Free Grace view of the Gospel. H.A. Ironside correctly recognized repentance as the confession that “one is utterly without merit” and that if one is “ever saved at all it can only be through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Salvation is without works of self-righteousness. Romans 4:5 plainly teaches that a man’s faith is COUNTED for righteousness, i.e., the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to one’s heavenly record by faith.

“Repentance is the recognition of my sinnership — the owning before God that I am as vile as He has declared me to be in His holy Word.”

SOURCE: Except Ye Repent, by Dr. Harry Ironside, chapter 3

Repentance and faith are inseparable. The Gospel of John mentions the word “believe” 85-times; but the word “repent” is never mentioned even once. In genuine salvation, one who believes on Jesus Christ has repented; and one who repents has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

According to Paul Washer, saving faith must be preceded by a turning from one’s sinful lifestyle. You can’t show me even one Scripture that mentions “repenting from sin” to be saved. Here’s an online Strong’s Concordance.. Type in any phrase you want, but you won’t find anything in God’s Word about repenting from sin to be saved. Please read, What is Biblical Repentance? Salvation is receiving, not giving! Eternal life is a free gift from God, paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Man has no part in God’s freely given gift of salvation except to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31).

You can study the Bible over and over and you’ll only find that salvation is the free gift of God. Heretics like Paul Washer attempt to connect holy living with salvation, which is the heresy of Lordship Salvation (i.e., works salvation). This is the same damnable heresy that Ray Comfort teaches. Say what you will, Romans 4:5 is abundantly clear that a person’s faith is COUNTED for righteousness, because we have no righteousness of our own to offer God. All we have to offer God is our own self-righteousness, which is filth to God (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 10:3,4).

I think Paul Washer is sincere, but nevertheless sincerely wrong. Washer, like other misguided ministers today, confuse the FRUIT of genuine repentance with the ROOT of repentance. To require FRUIT for salvation is to put the cart before the horse and corrupt the simplicity of the Gospel.

Paul Washer Corrupts the Meaning of Matthew 7:14

“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

In the video, Mr. Washer differentiates between the words “gate” and “way” in Matthew 7:14, claiming that Jesus is the gate, but the “way” refers to a continued life of holy living. This is heresy! Washer’s teaching completely ignores the plain truth of Romans 4:5… “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Could the Word of God be any clearer? A sinner’s faith is counted for righteousness! It is Jesus who justifieth the UNGODLY by faith; NOT by works! A man’s faith in Jesus is equivalent to a life of righteousness.

If Paul Washer is correct, i.e., that Jesus was teaching that salvation requires walking a strait “way” of continued obedience to God, then salvation is a PROCESS. This is the same damnable heresy that the Salvation Army teaches.

Paul Washer states…

“There is no such thing as a carnal Christian (time: 21:40 in video)… The Bible never teaches that a person, can be a genuine Christian and live in continuous carnality and wickedness and sin all the days of their life…” (time:22:20 in video)

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

What about Lot? Lot lived so sinfully that his sons-in-law laughed in his face when he tried to warn them concerning the judgment to come. Yet 2nd Peter 2:7 calls him “just Lot.” Lot was saved. What about the carnal church at Corinth? Paul calls them “carnal” and “babes in Christ” in 1st Corinthians 3:1. They certainly were carnal and saturated with sins.

Washer further states…

“But if you profess to have gone through the narrow gate, and yet you live in the broad way … just like all the other people who are carnal and wicked … the Bible wants you to know that you should be terribly, terribly afraid — you know not God.” (time: 24:37 in video)

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

It is dangerous that Mr. Washer is twisting Matthew 7:14 to include holy living as part of saving faith. Jesus was not teaching Matthew 7:14 simply contrasts the narrow path to life (Heaven) verses the broad highway to destruction (Hell). Paul Washer perverts this Scripture in an attempt to support his false doctrine, just as Ray Comfort perverts Luke 8:13 in an attempt to support his false doctrine, just as John MacArthur perverts Hebrews 12:14 in an attempt to support his false doctrine. Salvation is receiving; NOT giving!

The Southern Baptist Convention Needs to Do Some Repenting of their Own

Paul Washer shamelessly professes to be a Southern Baptist, which has become sinfully ecumenical in recent decades.

Southern Baptist Churches are notorious for so-called Christian Rock ‘N’ Roll. There ain’t no such animal. Something is very wrong when the music sang in our churches closely resembles the same heathen music of the godless world. There’s drums in the background on Paul Washer’s video, which have no place in any church. Evidently Mr. Washer doesn’t have a problem with worldly music in the church.

Furthermore, why did the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) lift their 8-year ban against Walt Disney? God hasn’t lifted His ban! Was it because too many SBC churches were losing the support of worldly congregations who wanted to take their kids to Walt Disney? Walt Disney never budged an inch on their homosexual GAY DAYS. Why doesn’t Paul Washer preach against his own Southern Baptist Convention? He’s pressuring young people to stop living in sin if they genuinely want to be saved, while remaining silent about the cesspool of wickedness within the Southern Baptist Convention. I’m just calling it like I see it.

Paul Washer Endorse Apostate Minister, Billy Graham

Paul Washer is bad news! He promotes apostate minister, Billy Graham (time: 37:00 in video). Billy Graham is of the Devil, who is a 33rd degree occult Freemason. Mr. Graham has endorsed the Satanic Pope, claims to have many gay friends and has done more to corrupt the church than any man alive. How could Paul Washer speak so highly of such a sinister minister as Billy Graham?

Paul Washer’s Perverted Gospel

Paul washer teaches a false Gospel which requires a person to continue on God’s path of righteousness in order to be saved. This is works salvation. Being born-again isn’t a process! Like other false prophets, Mr. Washer deceitfully claims to believe in salvation by faith alone; while simultaneously telling young people that they must have a hatred for sin in order to be saved. This eliminates growth in grace. Please read what Dr. John R. Rice had to say concerning worldly teens who profess to be saved. Although God certainly expects each believer who loves the Lord to depart from sinful living, this is NOT a prerequisite to the gift of eternal life. Christ died for THE UNGODLY (Romans 5:6).

Heretics like Paul Washer teach that sinners must stop living in sin in order to be saved; whereas the Bible teaches that we need only come as GUILTY sinners to Jesus for forgiveness. God is the One Who changes our life. There’s a big difference between repentance “OF” one’s sins, verses “FROM” one’s sins. The Word of God teaches that we simply need to realize we are GUILTY sinners for violating God’s holy Law and turn to Jesus to be forgiven (Romans 3:19; Acts 16:31).

As witnessed by Lot and Samson in the Old Testament, not all believers live a holy life. Argue as you may, repentance in the Bible simply means “a change of mind.” Salvation is as simple as a person realizing their guilt as a sinner, and turning in faith to the Savior for salvation. The Law of God shows us our hopeless condition, and then points us to the Savior for salvation. The change that God expects in our life comes as a result of genuine repentance, and is not required as a part of saving-faith.

Like other Lordship Salvationists, Paul Washer confuses the FRUIT of the believer’s faith with the ROOT of the believer’s faith. Certainly, believers’ don’t have God’s permission to sin; however, that doesn’t give anyone the right to corrupt the Gospel by mandating a consecrated life as part of saving faith. Please read what Dr. Harry Ironside had to say about those who require a commitment to Christ to be saved.

Read what Dr. Ironside correctly said in his Gospel tract, ANOTHER GOSPEL? …

“When anyone comes promising salvation to those ‘who make full surrender’ of all that they have to God, and who ‘pay the price of full salvation’ he is preaching another gospel, for the price was paid on Calvary’s cross and the work that saves is finished. It was Christ Jesus who made the full surrender when He yielded His life on Calvary that saves us, not our surrender in any way to Him.”

SOURCE: Harry A. Ironside, from the Gospel tract, Another Gospel.

Thank God for doctrinally sound Bible teachers like Dr. John R. Rice and Dr. Harry Ironside. I believe Paul Washer is sincere, but he has bought into the lie of Satan that a sinner must amend his ways and stop living in sin to be saved. This is not what the Bible teaches. Like it or not, salvation is the gift of God and is completely without any works of self-righteousness. A changed life is the result of genuine repentance, which comes after the fact. Salvation itself is by God’s undeserving grace. Romans 4:5 silences all the critics…

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” —Romans 4:5

Comment by grant | May 15, 2009
I have watched many Paul Washer videos and come to the conclusion that he is almost a lone voice amongst a growing pack of wolves. His preaching has cut me to the heart many times and challenged and changed my attitudes and thinking.I sincerely pray that God will provide for him so he can continue to preach the way he does,the church needs more men like Paul Washer.

Comment by ray | May 15, 2009
Grant

I haven’t looked in detail at Paul Washer or his theology yet so cannot endorse him overall – though this video was right on the nail.

However technically IF he holds some erroneous teaching, I would suggest that makes him a false teacher (on some points) and not a false prophet as he does not prophesy that I know of?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 15, 2009
Why does everyone get turned off by the fact that Paul gets angry? Goodness, nothing should be able to turn an audeince away from the Gospel of Jesus, especially if they proclaimed themselves sincere.

If anyone walks away with an excuse of ‘I didn’t like his diplay of anger’…well then they are not really interested in the Gospel of Jesus.

If the way he speaks is going to turn an audience away when you know fully well Paul is speaking the truth, then I say that audience needs to get up quickly and leave so that people who really want to hear Jesus’ message can sit down!

Comment by Discerning The World | May 15, 2009
Ah, the only problem with Paul washer is his very strong calvanist views. Which in some cases are ok and in others case are severely not ok. Over all I think Paul washer preaches a good message. Yes there are one or 2 things I disagree but overall he is not too bad.

Oh another thing, it would seem most of the people at his ministry believe in amillenialism. Errrr…that was a St Augustine concoction wans’t it?

Anyhow, Paul has some really good things to say a lot of the time. We don’t follow men anyhow, we follow the Word of God.

Comment by Discerning The World | May 15, 2009
Why did Paul Washer get so angry?

Why did Paul Washer have to look so mean?

WHY DID JESUS ACT SO ANGRY AND MEAN WHEN HE TURNED THE TABLES OVER IN THE TEMPLE?

Comment by Sylvia | May 15, 2009
Paul Washer Endorse Apostate Minister, Billy Graham

Paul Washer is bad news! He promotes apostate minister, Billy Graham (time: 37:00 in video). Billy Graham is of the Devil, who is a 33rd degree occult Freemason. Mr. Graham has endorsed the Satanic Pope, claims to have many gay friends and has done more to corrupt the church than any man alive. How could Paul Washer speak so highly of such a sinister minister as Billy Graham?

SO MUCH FOR PAUL WASHER – HE IS TABOO IN MY BOOK! ANY FRIEND OF BILLY GRAHAM IS NOT A FRIEND OF MINE!

Comment by Barry | May 15, 2009
You know what? When I was much younger, I used to ‘endorse’ Billy Graham before I knew that he was so ecumenical and also so apostate. It was only when I worked behind the scenes of one of his crusades that I found about and then got very disturbed about new converts being referred for discipleship to Roman Catholic churches. But this was in the years before the internet when I had no other way of really finding out beforehand.

Many other Christians possibly do the same as I did, assuming what I used to about Billy Graham (without checking and testing him) that he is a bona fide evangelist preaching the true gospel.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 15, 2009
How true is this story really? Speaks about 37:00 min into a video? What video?

Comment by Discerning The World | May 15, 2009
Good point Miriam, we sometimes listen to people and endorse them when they are still in the ‘good stage’ but later find out how bad they are…and obviously want nothing more to do with them.

But the date of this video would be telling…

Comment by Discerning The World | May 15, 2009
>> Here’s a one hour video sermon where Mr. Washer brainwashes a group of 5,000 youths to believe that they cannot be saved unless they stop living in sin

Nah, this is not true, I have seen this video twice and in no way does Paul say this. He even repents during his prayer on stage, asking God for forgivness. The message was that if you are genuinely saved you will not want to sin anymore, and if you willfully continue in habitual sin then yes there is a problem!

Comment by Discerning The World | May 15, 2009
The apostle Paul could be hard sometimes too. Read the letter he wrote to the Galatians (for example Galatians 5:12).

And this video is only some pieces from a long message. You can not judge only this video.

And one thing: who is right on this website? Is there a perfect christian here who teaches 100 % right?

Comment by Ruitje | May 15, 2009
Who is preaching the true gospel? Well, not Joel Osteen… But give me names…

Comment by Ruitje | May 15, 2009
Grant, save your nitpicking for the NAR. Anyone who does not believe the gifts are for today, and I don’t think Paul Washer does, is lacking the fullness of the truth.

However, this does not mean that what Washer is preaching in the video is not true. In fact, Grant, you seem to not be hearing that what Washer said in this video at least refutes your criticism.

He is hitting at the Bible Belters and Evangelicals in this country who feed off the Prosperity Gospel and are sent to on a sweet sleigh ride into Hell by the likes of Benny Hinn and especially Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar and TBN and the Elijah list.

They see Jesus as their Santa Claus.

I’m interested in Washer’s message because I am having a tough time ministering to some despoiled by the NAR’s same teaching on “The Wealth of the Wicked Is Stored Up for the Righteous” and this person just cannot seem to get it in their heads how this cannot be true, when TBN and the Elijah List teach it!

I think Washer’s video above is a bit dated (i.e. prior to the economic meltdown) but still hits hard at the Dominionist teachings of “transfer of wealth”.

It is a transfer of wealth of THEIR OWN CHOSING.

It is a formula for poverty and false hope, to staunch back their unbelief in the power of who Jesus actually is.

So I care not who Washer may be friends with in this video, he is preaching the word in season and out of season.

P.S. He’s not “angry” in a sinful manner either, people. This is not man’s wrath he is pounding. This is God’s anger at the Pastors who are destroying their flocks and sending them into hell because THEY WILL NOT PREACH THE WORD.

Remember the “fearful” do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven either.

Just pretend he is preaching against Homosexuality while he’s pounding the podium.

Cowards are right next to adulterers and homosexuals and alcoholics as those who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven…

Comment by AriseMyLove | May 15, 2009
Craig

I agree with what you say. I agree alot of these fire and brimstone type preachers need to have more compassion. I see videos on youtube all the time of these street preachers going to gay pride events and calling them homosexuals to their face and saying they’re not going to heaven. Its like they judge the people and condemn them to their face. Of course people are going to get mad if you call them homosexuals and drunks to their face. I garuntee you if I was a drunk and had someone come up to me and condemn me and call me a drunk I’d get mad I wouldn’t want nothing to do with this “unloving God” they serve. Yes what these people do is wrong but going to another level and actually calling what they do to their face is another thing. Its very ineffective evangelism. Jesus only condemned the religious hypocrites like the Pharisees who thought they were ‘holier than thou’. Jesus never condemned the prostitute to her face, He said daughter your sins are forgiven go and sin no more. Last thing I think these fire and brimstone type of preachers use HELL as a scare tactic. Almost like fire insurance. Serve God you dont wanna go to hell and burn in the pit do ya??? God wants us to come to HIM for communion. HE created us for COMMUNION. To have a relationship with HIM, not just to save us from Hell. Did you know the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses his dad was a fire and brimstone type of preacher? Look what it did to him.

God Bless

Comment by Jesus Heals | May 15, 2009
If I personally know the person is born again saved, then I will rejoice in the service. Lots of times I don’t know the state of the soul even when I think I do. I’m sure many thought the thief was headed for hell when they saw him carrying his cross, but in his dying hours he put faith in Christ.

I always present the gospel at a funeral service no matter where the deceased is headed. So many at a funeral service don’t go to church, so I take advantage of it and speak the hope of the gospel and let everyone decide whether the deceased wsa saved or not, and staring death in the face decide whether they want to keep living without Christ.

I don’t know much about Washer, but certainly many pastors don’t preach the gospel or seem to emphasize it as they should.

Comment by BB | May 15, 2009
My pastor is a very humble man! When he preaches, he cries, for the lost, he doesn’t take up a collection, we have offering boxes at the exit from the sancuary and he say’s give as you can and God bless you if you can’t!

BUT…….Oh YES, he has been known to yell a time or two! Like for instance, lazy christians, that think because they come to church once a week it’s OK to sin the rest. Or, these preacher’s that are sending the flock to hell and so on.

But we give him a AMEN when he does! We know his heart for the lost and sometimes it takes a shout to wake people up. Mind you it’s all good.

But his favorite saying to us is, “Keep your eyes on the Master, and not on the pastor”!

Comment by OhhowILOVEJESUS | May 16, 2009
AriseMyLove,

you wrote:

P.S. He’s not “angry” in a sinful manner either, people. This is not man’s wrath he is pounding. This is God’s anger at the Pastors who are destroying their flocks and sending them into hell because THEY WILL NOT PREACH THE WORD.

I agree with this; but, why not direct it toward those he has his ‘righteous anger’ against? I can get his point without his anger. In Jesus’ example in the temple, His anger was directly toward the money changers — they KNEW who Jesus was angry at and why.

Remember the “fearful” do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven either.

Just pretend he is preaching against Homosexuality while he’s pounding the podium.

Cowards are right next to adulterers and homosexuals and alcoholics as those who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven…

I don’t consider myself either “fearful” (at least not in this regard) or a coward; and, I’m not really sure of your point. I don’t know if it’s directed toward all the commentators who spoke against Washer’s anger or only a few; but, I certainly don’t find myself in the fearful or cowardly camp.

I see no difference if Washer was pounding the podium against homosexuals or liars or what-have-you. Sin is sin and not one is greater or lesser in God’s eyes.

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
The problem with these so-called ’sermon jams’, which take snippets from preachers (sometimes from different sermons, and often to great effect) is that they don’t always present a balance of that preacher overall.
I happen to greatly admire Paul Washer, and have listened to many of his sermons. In some he weeps brokenly for the lost. He cares not what man may think of him, but fears the Lord.
I’ve posted this link before on another thread; it’s part of an interview with Paul Washer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRQdn5c8tQ0

Comment by Elizabeth A | May 16, 2009
For the record I have seen other Paul Washer clips with him weeping and showing compassion for the lost. And, generally I like what he has to say. But, I stand by my opinion regarding this clip. If Washer wants to be angry about what had happened at the funeral, I do believe he is justified in it. But, why not confront it right there where it happened (perhaps he did, we’re not told whether he did or did not)? I just don’t wish to see his display after the fact. Had I been in this funeral parlor and witnessed Washer tell the pastor his error I would’ve cheered him on.

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
“There is no such thing as a carnal Christian (time: 21:40 in video)… The Bible never teaches that a person, can be a genuine Christian and live in continuous carnality and wickedness and sin all the days of their life…” (time:22:20 in video)

Grant

I agree with Paul Washer on sin ,repentance,salvation,righteousness and surrender to God .

Grant you alarm me with your defination of salvation and repentance.
What does YOUR BIBLE ( Not Ironside or Rice)say about sin and christians conduct?

David fell into horrible sin and afterwards repented.He was not and had not been living in sin and wickedness.He was a man after God´s heart.

On Lot and Noah 2.Peter 2: 5-7 “….but saved Noah one of eight people ,a preacher of righteousness…………and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked”

We know what happened to Ananias and Sapphira.God is Holy.

Genuine christians can be tempted and even fall into sin but they will not continually ,all their lives,live in sin and wickedness.

Carnality comes out of lack of submission to the Spirit of God.Galatians 5:16..21″I say then : Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit the flesh…..the works of the flesh are evident,which are adultery,fornication..hatred ,jealousies,outbusts of wrath,selfish ambitions,dissensions,heresies,drunkenness,revelries and the like,of which I tell you beforehand,just as I told you in the time past ,that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Grant according to you “The change that God expects in our life comes as a result of genuine repentance, and is not required as a part of saving-faith.”
No Grant .The change that comes in us after we accept Christ as having paid the price for our sins, with His blood on the cross, comes from the Spirit of God working in us as we continually submit to Him.

And yes the bible makes it clear that change is expected Ephesians 5 :for “….this you know that no fornicator,unclean person,idolator……has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS…”
Grant GOD IS HOLY.

Comment by Sally | May 16, 2009
Ruitje

No one is 100% correct, you are right. And Jesus didn’t preach the “gospel”. Jesus and his disciple preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. There’s a tiny difference. So here we go.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Jesus preached about “The gospel of the Kingdom,” Matthew 24:14, “The mysteries of the Kingdom,” Matthew 13:11, “The keys of the Kingdom,” Matthew 16:19, “The word of the Kingdom,” Matthew 13:19, “The heirs of the Kingdom,” James 2:5. Jesus “loved the church, gave Himself for it,” Ephesians 5:25, all the while He pointed men’s hearts to the heavenly Kingdom. We are to love the church as Jesus did but our emphasizing segregated parts of the church independently of the Kingdom is a contradiction of His message. Denominationalism is an illusion, a phantom in the desert. The modern church has reversed the Divine order, ignoring her Kingdom-identity and relating only with select, visible congregations. A gospel without the Kingdom is a powerless gospel. Apart from the Kingdom, the church has no message, no mission, no purpose, and no future. The Kingdom of God is much greater than church doctrine can ever comprehend. It totally encompasses all the known dimensional realms in which we live plus the other dimensions which remain unidentified. The Kingdom as the Government of God–transcends all there is, the seen, unseen, physical, nonphysical, discovered, undiscovered. Relationship with this incredible Kingdom is what is offered to us in the gospel. Our interaction with the Kingdom is the real issue. Jesus illustrated how the Kingdom coalesces with other dimensions when He said, “If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God no doubt the Kingdom of God has come unto you.” Matthew 12:28. The demonic realm, the Kingdom, and our earthly sphere, are dimensions distinct from each other but Jesus brought them together every time He cast out a demon. Not only so, but He expects the modern church to do the same; we are to invade the demonic realm and exorcize demons with Kingdom power. Is that happening? Only in a few churches.

God’s rule is demonstrated when a miracle of healing occurs as much as when a demon is cast out. When the disciples exclaimed, “The kingdom of God has come near,” they were interpreting the healing as the immediacy of God’s presence in power. In effect, the kingdom was not near, but already present. Their Hebrew declaration meant, “God has taken charge here.”

What the modern day church preaches isn’t the gospel of the kingdom, the way that Jesus portrays it. So like Ruitje said, no one is 100% correct in doctrine.

Lets allow God to take charge.

God Bless

Comment by Jesus Heals | May 16, 2009
Also concerning Carnal christians. Do you remember in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 When Paul told the Corinthians that they were carnal because of their jealousy and envy? He wanted to give them the meat of the word but since they were still babes in Christ he had to feed them the milk. So yes there are carnal christians.

Comment by Jesus Heals | May 16, 2009
It was the great 18th century Calvinist revivalist, George Whitefield, who said, “It is a poor sermon the gives no offense, that neither makes a hearer displeased with himself nor with the preacher.”

Comment by bassbum | May 16, 2009
To Discerning the Word:

Regarding your comment, “If anyone walks away with an excuse of ‘I didn’t like his diplay of anger’…well then they are not really interested in the Gospel of Jesus.”

That’s plain arrogance on your part, and plain judgmental. I don’t disagree with anything he said. Just don’t like the fact that he seems so angry. Perhaps it’s just passion in the moment, I don’t know. But for you to suggest that I’m not interested in the Gospel of Jesus because I don’t like his tone or delivery style is insulting.

Comment by graceisenough | May 16, 2009
paul washer is a man of courage and conviction. what is the name of his angel, anyone? what kind of gem dust falls in his meetings? what kind of trinkets does he sell? has he kicked anyone in the stomach? will he be divorcing his wife soon for a young peruvian hottie? thank God for pw.

Comment by goodness sakes | May 16, 2009
Craig,
I do take your point that Jesus’ anger was directed towards the moneychangers . And I know some who would be turned off by Paul Washer’s anger (both Christian and non-Christian). Yet I can’t help but feel that we generally need more passion when it comes to speaking truth and warning the flock, which is what I hear him doing here.

Comment by Elizabeth A | May 16, 2009
Thank you, Sally. At last: “The blood of the cross” mentioned. “God is Holy” mentioned. Have we not seen absolute violence done to both throughout the Lakeland, Fla debacle and the many doctrineless preachers of our day? Perhaps the Lord is raising up reformers like Martin Luther, of whom Erasmus said, “Because of the magnitude of the disorders, God gave this age a violent physician.” The great theologian of our Protestant reformation saw no reason to be more charitable with “the false brethren” than he was with enemies from Rome, i.e, the Catholic church.

Luther admitted he had “sharply inveighed against ungodly doctrines,” but “What good does salt do if it does not bite? What good does the edge of the sword do it if does not cut?” He further declared, “to curse for the sake of God’s Word is just.” Angry enough for you? Coarse, unyielding, hater of Jewish theology, sinning Martin Luther. Martin Luther, the man who swung the door on 1,000 years of ignorance and oppression. (And, no, I am not a Lutheran.)

In fact, I have been a charismatic believer for 25 years of my 37 years of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His blood bought body. And we of like faith have been silenced long enough. We love old fashioned words like truth, sin, and repent, holiness and justice; yes, along with forgiveness, grace and mercy. We are deeply grieved but no longer tolerant of the ungodliness that is allowed and protected by those who profess to be our leaders and even apostles.

Some additional violence done to the Word of God by such perpetrators: We are not to discern or judge righteously. We really don’t need “doctrine” or theology. Even though the Word speaks of doctrines of demons, false teachers, false prophets, lying apostles, etc., we are exempt from harm. We should not touch “God’s anointed,” even though every born again child of God is anointed. We should give money indiscriminately: not to those who truly shepherd the flock but to sellers of “indulgences” of handkerchiefs with their special anointing, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Speaking of indulgences, if we were to come up with 95 Theses, as Martin Luther did in 1517, whose door could we post them on? Would we not find the same response as Luther did: Great opposition, even edicts of death? How dare we ask for accountability, respectability, honesty, integrity, fear of a holy God — in God’s house? Sorry, but I can hear the echo of overturned tables.

We’re fiddling while America is burning. What will cleanse and unite us? Revival? Any understanding of God’s dealings with Israel in declension will tell the answer. I will close with yet another of Martin Luther’s famous statements: As the church goes, so goes the world. Take a good and honest look around. And please, Father, raise up your violent physicians for this age.

Comment by Loretta J. Steele | May 16, 2009
Hmm, people get disturbed when Paul Washer is sharing his message in an angry way. But what about the anger of Benny Hinn when he CURSED every criticaster on stage!?! What about Paul Crouch when he was furious on TV, threatening to ’shoot’ all the people who are opposing his WoF doctrine. These people were dead serious and if they had the ability to do so, – the curse came into full effect so harming the critics – they would use this ability immediately. So, say bye bye to Paul Washer, Dave Wilkerson, Miriam, Ruitje and many, many others. Why… because there are believers who just want to have a sound, sincere, honest message of the gospel and not a me-myself-and I version, serving the preacher’s own purpose and that is his/her over the top luxurious, decadent, Hollywood lifestyle.

Comment by WatEenZooitje | May 16, 2009
I didn’t see him as angry. Passionate yes, but also he does seem compassionate and saddened. It is a great video.

Comment by NotAllThere | May 16, 2009
Those who would criticize Paul Washer for taking an angry stance against false teaching and doctrine that give the lost an untrue sense of security better be speaking out against that same error. Just because he didn’t say it like you would say it doesn’t invalidate its message.

Comment by R | May 16, 2009
I had done some research on Lordship Salvation recently and Paul Washer’s name came up in the search and the info noted was from a person named David Stewart’s (as noted) website who gave the essay on what his opinion is of Paul Washer. I am of the opinion that Lordship Salvation’s theology is off balance thus the stance Paul Washer takes on Christian fruit can be off.

Comment by grant | May 16, 2009
International Standard Version (©2008)
For the one who has shown no mercy will be judged without mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
No mercy will be shown to those who show no mercy to others. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

King James Bible
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

American King James Version
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that has showed no mercy; and mercy rejoices against judgment.

American Standard Version
For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.

Bible in Basic English
For the man who has had no mercy will be judged without mercy, but mercy takes pride in overcoming judging.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment.

Darby Bible Translation
for judgment will be without mercy to him that has shewn no mercy. Mercy glories over judgment.

English Revised Version
For judgment is without mercy to him that hath shewed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.

Webster’s Bible Translation
For he shall have judgment without mercy that hath shown no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Weymouth New Testament
For he who shows no mercy will have judgement given against him without mercy; but mercy triumphs over judgement.

World English Bible
For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Young’s Literal Translation
for the judgment without kindness is to him not having done kindness, and exult doth kindness over judgment

Comment by grant | May 16, 2009
James 2:13

Comment by grant | May 16, 2009
Dear Grant,
Thanks for posting quotes from Pastor Ironside. Love his definitions of salvation and repentance, which I believe capture the essence of God’s Truth as taught in the Bible.

Thanks, Miriam, for posting these videos of Pastor Walsh’s, which I enjoy so much. ~Brenda

Comment by Brenda | May 16, 2009
thank you jesus for building your REAL CHURCH that the gates of hell canot prevail.thank you for your bible that teaches me the truth which set me free.oh and thanks for people with guts to preach TRUTH so people will be convicted so they can make a decision to let you change them ito what you want them to be.

Comment by rose | May 16, 2009
Washer is indignant as he sees the church devoured by compromise and Apostasy. It grieves him, as it does me. Jesus made a whip…and drove out those who made His temple a “DEN OF THIEVES.”

Do we have to dissect every jot and tittle of his “doctrinal stances” to see that he is preaching the truth here?..Do we have a list that we carry to determine who does and does not line up with us? In this Dogma is born, along with 5000 denominations…mostly at war with one another over the very one and same list.

We are in the midst of the “GREAT FALLING AWAY” prophesied in scripture…and Washer is making a cry…loud and clear…that this…is that…and “BEWARE!” It’s a passionate warning….”quicksand is right up the road….turn another way! Lest you are swallowed up!” HE THAT HAS EARS LET HIM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES!….and I for one hear that in Washer’s preaching…and I don’t care if he’s a Calvinist or Armenian…It is the truth, and sorely needed…and it is a matter of life and death. People are passionate when they see their babies crawling into the Jackal’s den.

…directed at no one in particular.

Comment by Thomas Watkins | May 16, 2009
graceisenough:

you wrote:

To Discerning the Word:

Regarding your comment, “If anyone walks away with an excuse of ‘I didn’t like his diplay of anger’…well then they are not really interested in the Gospel of Jesus.”

That’s plain arrogance on your part, and plain judgmental. I don’t disagree with anything he said. Just don’t like the fact that he seems so angry. Perhaps it’s just passion in the moment, I don’t know. But for you to suggest that I’m not interested in the Gospel of Jesus because I don’t like his tone or delivery style is insulting.

Thanks; and, I agree wholeheartedly!

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
To all who lashed out against those of us who did not care for Washer’s anger as displayed in this video:

I realized when I posted my first comment that all would not share my opinion. I’ve no problem with that. However, to lash out with accusations as I’ve seen in some of the comments from commentators whose views I typically respect and share is disappointing. It places you as no better than the Bentley/NAR/Latter Rain/etc supporters who use ad hominem attacks rather than good arguments for their cause. I know you know better. You were acting in the flesh. Can you see why some non-Christians want no part of our faith?

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
And we have to believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No comes to the Father but by Him. So if we don’t want to be judged at the end of the age, we have to believe Him and turn to Him. Repent and get saved. That’s what it is all about. The gospel of the Kingdom is also the gospel of salvation and that we have to be born again (like Jesus told Nicodemus).

Comment by Ruitje | May 16, 2009
(this was my answer to @ Jesus Heals.

Comment by Ruitje | May 16, 2009
Craig, you are a very gracious man who I respect.

My comment #11 was not aimed at you. The way I see it is that Jesus angrily whipped the tables over in the temple because the moneylenders were ‘MIS-USING HIS FATHERS HOUSE’. I connected P.Washers anger with the same principle that the false teachers/prophets are mis-using THE FATHERS HOUSE/WORD/GOSPEL, which I know you agree about. Quite honestly I feel more than an occasional angry burst myself, when I read thread after thread of reports of heresy and blasphemy.
Sorry you saw it differently, but it was NOT personal.

Comment by Sylvia | May 16, 2009
THOMAS WATKINS

Very well put and exactly how I perceived Paul Washers manner of delivery. It certainly drew attention, and is in stark contrast to the many sound preachers who remain noticeable by their absence in addressing the issue of the alarming rise of apostasy in the church.

Comment by Sylvia | May 16, 2009
I am on on a fast from nattering and prating. Though every fiber in me rose up in righteous indignation when reading the attacks on Paul Washer, I prayed for someone eloquent in his defense to rise up. (As to detractors I do not mean you, Craig, I know you well enough to know you are more in the Begg style of putting forth your passion, and that you agreed whole-heartedly with Washer’s sentiments. And it is your last comment that made me come out of my garden.) Please hear me out Beloved, it is out of love for you and for the honor of Christ’s church I speak now. I have prayed and I have permission.

“You were acting in the flesh. Can you see why some non-Christians want no part of our faith?” Yes, and I would add your nattering and prating puts you perilously close to the NAR camp, because it is as the sin of witchcraft, as David Wilkerson points out: http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/david-wilkerson-witchcraft-in-the-church/

Read it again, dear children of God, read it prayerfully, ask the Holy Spirit to search your hearts for any of your own bloody wounds or roots of bitterness. Fall on your face before him, and cry out for repentance! For He will judge His church for her sorceries, indeed, as Washer has pointed out, those who follow the Crowders and suchlike crowds have already received in themselves His wrath. Oh shudder before Him, and pray that you do not walk in the same blindness they do—let your heart be tender before Him. We cannot pick out their motes if we are blinded by our logs.

Truly, I am sad that my former pastor will perhaps gloat when he reads some of the comments, as I intend to send him the video. I pray it will pierce the heart of a man who used to walk the streets of this city with the salvation message, a man who wrote a tract that had such clarity of gospel witness, that when I read it as an unrepentant sinner, for the first time I understood why Jesus had to die…and that man ‘s message is now muddled and mixed with the occult. I don’t want him justifying his mixture when he sees ours displayed in cyberspace.

So pray, and read Wilkerson’s passionate plea for the Body of Christ, not just the sensational first page, the whole article! Let the light of his spirit-filled words fill your heart and pierce your soul. And when it has come, His blessed forgiveness and cleansing, then please continue to walk in His light, and pray before hitting send. Think—does what I have written really need to be said?

And sending this, I’m going back to weeding my garden. I want my strawberries to bear lots of fruit this summer.

Comment by Karen Butler | May 16, 2009
Again we seem to be going in circles, which is a distraction. Maybe there was a little ‘lashing out’ (not sure I would use those words) and fleshly response. Nevertheless, there are some ‘carnal Christians’ (use what terminology you will) who need the shock of sharp words, whilst others may not be reached by this type of preaching. God knows who needed to hear that message.
The question is, does he speak the truth? There are plenty of smooth-talkers out there. Is his message needed or not?

Comment by Elizabeth A | May 16, 2009
Good post, Grant.

In the case of Lot, he offered his daughters to the mob to be raped. He even called people in the mob “brothers”. Those actions were repulsive to say the least! Yet, Lot was called the “righteous” one and was spared from the fiery wrath that came upon Sodom and Gommorah. It was counted to him righteousness because he believed. Otherwise, he would be among the ashes along with the unbelievers. Even after Lot and his daughters were spared, Lot got drunk and you all know what the daughters did to him.

It’s not what we do, it is because we believed in the one and only Christ Jesus who took our place on the cross. Jesus knows we’re hopeless and on our way to Hell. He knows our works or our “righteousness” are like filthy rags. Jesus provided the only way for us to receive eternal life and that is through Him only. All we have to do is to trust in Him and not rely on our works or by our own righteousness.

Some of people fall away from the faith because they tried to live a perfect and sinless life, but couldn’t. They give up. It makes you crazy realizing you couldn’t do it. So instead of trusting in Christ and rely on Him to walk in righteousness, they rely on themselves to walk in righeousness. That is doomed to failure from the start.

Those pastors preaching Lordship Salvation do a lot of disservice to the flock. It is a preaching of condemnation instead of grace. The flock are their own worst critics, they are constantly feeling guilty for what they did in the past week. The cycle goes on and on. Then the flock burned out. They realize they can’t overcome sin so they give up. They’re missing the whole point of grace. It is tragic. They listen and rely on pastors and preachers that they don’t read the bible for themselves to see the unbounding love and grace our Lord has for them. Those kind of preaching that the NAR and the rest of the false teachers, pastors, and prophets are used to control the flock.

Comment by Erik | May 16, 2009
I have never heard of Paul Washer before until this video. I liked what he had to say. It was very powerful and moving to me. I’ve visited this web site many times. This is the first time I’ve read such judgemental and mean spirited things from viewers. To all of you who were so negative and judgemental, do you think you are all that better in your life and theology than he is? Have you really convinced yourself that you know it all and have no flaws yourselves? Some of you long winded ones sound like you have all the answers. Well, you don’t

Comment by Ellen | May 16, 2009
Craig – you said “I believe he is losing some of his potential audience by his manner”. Well, so be it – I expect some of the disciples thought Jesus crazy when he allowed the rich young ruler to walk away.

Comment by jan(2) | May 16, 2009
It appears some still do not understand my point of view. I did say that I agree with the content of Washer’s words in this video (see my very first comment — the 2nd one in this thread). There’s nothing wrong with his words. However, I do believe that the audience he was speaking to did not include Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, or drug lord supporters; and, these are the ones who Washer raised his voice about and pounded his podium for.

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
Matthew 3:7-10 7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The sequence is important. First the repentance, then faith and then change. If there is no change or at least the willingness to change then you may wonder if there was any true repentance at all. I wonder what sweet voice he used to address the religious authorities. Think about the woes of Jesus to the scribes and pharisees.

James 2:26 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You are not saved by works but works will show up when you are saved.

Romans 3:8 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

1 John 5:16 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Unfortunately there are people beyond the reach of mercy.

Comment by gyod | May 16, 2009
Sylvia,

Thanks for the kind words. But, no, I did not take any of your comments personally. You stated an opinion without directing any personal attacks against anyone or even a general attack on the “anti-anger” stance [for lack of better words]. Everyone is entitled to an opinion; and, I can certainly understand anyone here agreeing with Washer’s delivery style on this video. That’s why I qualified my first comment at the end with, “But, maybe it’s just me.”

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
Ruitje

Agreed. No man can come to the Father but by Jesus. Paul also told us to preach the gospel of reconciliation, which is bringing men back to God through Christ. But how did Paul bring them to repentance? The answer lies in 1 Corinthians 2:4 Paul himself said “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:” So Paul co-labored with Christ and did what the Father wanted to do when He wanted to do it. Paul also said we’re ambassadors for Christ and His Kingdom. An amazing view point to see ourselves in the Kingdom of God. We are ambassadors for Christ. It is a wonderful revelation to me to find that we are ambassadors for our Lord Jesus. If we are ambassadors then we come from a Kingdom/Government which is of God. Which basically means we’re supposed to represent Jesus as though He was still here on earth. Ruitje, the very word salvation in the Greek is translated “sozo”. That word sozo means salvation, healing and deliverance all in one. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. See that salvation is physical, spiritual and emotional healing. Here’s the definition according to Strong’s Concordance.

Strong’s Number: 4982
Original Word swñ
Transliterated Word; Sozo
Verb
1. to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a. one (from injury or peril)
1. to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

God Bless

Comment by Jesus Heals | May 16, 2009
I think Paul Washer has forgotten that God is a God of grace n mercy n that he is not God to try choose who goes to heaven or not. The person who died with drugs could still get God’s grace before he died. He can’t say he went to hell. Wot if he saw Jesus the last minutes or in a vision n gave his life to him. Paul needs his own heart to be washed with soap so that his bitter n anger towards the church will turn into love. He is not God he is just a mere religious brain who loves to attack other people. I must say Paul has not died to himself, thats why he is so offended by other preachers. He who died to themself will not be offended cause they live by the spirit not the flesh. One who lives in the flesh like Paul will always be offended thats why i am not suprised.. My word to Paul- get a life!!!

Comment by Jamie | May 16, 2009
I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they’re conscious of it or not, they’re members of the body of Christ – BILLY GRAHAM THE DECEIVER

Some of you long winded ones sound like you have all the answers. Well, you don’t

JN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Dear Ellen

Billy Graham doesn’t have the answers see the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3ZNnC4gTHE

Dr. Schuller: “Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?”

Dr. Graham: “Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there’s the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they’re conscious of it or not, they’re members of the body of Christ. And I don’t think that we’re going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time.”

“What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don’t have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they’re saved and they’re going to be with us in heaven.”

Dr. Schuller: “What I hear you saying is that it’s possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they’ve been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you’re saying?”

Dr. Graham: “Yes it is because I believe that. I’ve met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they’ve believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.”

Dr. Schuller: “This is fantastic. I’m so thrilled to hear you say that. There’s a wideness in God’s mercy.

Dr. Graham: There is. There definitely is

Anybody who is a friend of the deceiver Billy Graham who says there are other ways to heaven is not a friend of mine

Comment by Barry | May 16, 2009
Barry you are totally over reacting. You may be right about Billy Graham, but that has nothing to do with the truth that Paul Washer is saying on this video.

Your own attitude does you no credit whatsoever. If you want people to take notice of you, back off such hostility.

Comment by Sylvia | May 16, 2009
Karen Butler:

You can send your former pastor the youtube video here:

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
Dr. Schuller: “What I hear you saying is that it’s possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they’ve been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you’re saying?”

This statement is 100% correct. Check this article out. And this comes from Associated Content, a news media.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1728744/supernatural_dreams_and_visions_compel.html?cat=34

Supernatural Dreams and Visions Compel Muslims to Become Christian

Since the time of Mohammed, there has been unease between the great religions of the world, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Wars have been fought between surrogates of the great faiths and they have historically remained ethnically distinct, with few exceptions. That is now changing. Even though Christian missionaries have preached the Gospel to the Muslim world for hundreds of years, they have had few converts. Over the past twenty years, that began to change.

Over the past few decades, increasing numbers of Muslims have begun to have supernatural dreams and visions of Isa, as Muslims call Jesus Christ. These dreams affect a cross section of Muslims. Young, old, men, women, and even fanatics have reported the dreams. In one survey of Muslim converts to Christianity, 27% of respondents report having dreams or visions of Christ before their conversion. Interestingly enough, many others report having dreams or visions after their conversion. While there are a wide variety of these dreams and visions, most seem to fall into two categories. The first is preparatory dreams and visions. These might instruct the dreamer to visit a Christian or seek out a copy of the Bible. Some dream of Isa telling them how to obtain forgiveness and redemption. In some dreams, Isa saves their lives or frees them from bondage. Some even dream of Hell. The second broad category is that of empowering dreams and visions. These dreams give the dreamer strength to endure persecution and trials. When Muslims convert to Christianity, they are often disowned by their families and friends, beaten, arrested, tortured, and sometimes even killed. These empowering dreams and visions help them to cope with these trials. One of the most prominent Muslims to convert to Christianity is Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son a leader of the Hamas terrorist organization. Yousef, while not reporting any dreams or visions, was troubled by many aspects of the Islamic religion. When he spent time in an Israeli prison, he became disillusioned by the harsh treatment and torture that Hamas members inflicted on their own Palestinian people. Yousef studied the Bible and became convinced that it was the word of God. As noted earlier, dreams and visions play a role in the conversion of only about 25% of Muslim-born Christians. What convinces the other 75% that Isa is the Christ? The most common answer is the lifestyle of Christians. Next, Muslim converts say that the power of God in answering prayers, healing, and driving out demons was important in their conversions. There are many cases of healing following prayer after the failure of other methods. In one case, a Nigerian witch doctor reportedly cursed a man considering converting to Christianity. The man became insane and was deserted by his family, but after praying to Jesus he was healed. The unprecedented conversions, dreams and visions that the Islamic world is experience may be hard for jaded westerners to believe. Unbelievable or not, God is actively working around the world. The Christian church of the free world should join in his work.

Romans 2:4-….not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

God will accomplish HIS purpose of men’s salvation through dreams and visions, whether the western church believes it or not. God can’t fit in our western god of intellect. Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with being smart and knowing the Bible. But to deny that God uses “different” ways than our western minds can comprehend, is strange indeed. And i’m not talking about angel feathers and fake things like that. I’m talking about the genuine goodness of God.

Be Blessed

Comment by Jesus Heals | May 16, 2009
Well, I didn’t mean for the video to be imbedded. I’ll try again:

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
Cragi – yes I did misunderstand. Karen is right to warn us to pray and think before pressing the send button. When I first saw this video I had goosebumps and cried when he told the story of his mother so emotion took over.

Comment by jan(2) | May 16, 2009
Craig, it does that regardless now!

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 16, 2009
Karen,

OK, one last time without the http and with one less “w” in the front:

ww.youtube.com/watch?v=iWMrKcFKqzk

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
Karen Butler:

Try this: Go to youtube.com; then type in “Paul Washer Joel Osteen” — this video is the 5th one down. I hope that works.

Comment by Craig | May 16, 2009
“I think Paul Washer has forgotten that God is a God of grace n mercy n that he is not God to try choose who goes to heaven or not. The person who died with drugs could still get God’s grace before he died. He can’t say he went to hell. Wot if he saw Jesus the last minutes or in a vision n gave his life to him. Paul needs his own heart to be washed with soap so that his bitter n anger towards the church will turn into love. He is not God he is just a mere religious brain who loves to attack other people. I must say Paul has not died to himself, thats why he is so offended by other preachers. He who died to themself will not be offended cause they live by the spirit not the flesh. One who lives in the flesh like Paul will always be offended thats why i am not suprised.. My word to Paul- get a life!!!”

Intriguing that someone who criticizes Paul Washer for being ungracious demonstrates that same thing they project onto Brother Washer.

“And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?”

- Romans 2:3

Comment by R | May 17, 2009
It’s so sad that all he is saying is TRUE. These churches make me sick, and I can fully understand how they would make GOD want to vomit them out.
I applaud this man to stand up for what is right, and all pastors should be.
My own dear family has been affected detrimentally by this whitewashing of the truth. As of right now, those in my family who might have made it, will not, because they became involved with a Baptist church which taught the “once saved always saved doctrine”. It is instilled in them now and they will not listen to reasoning on the scriptures. They have been indoctrinated. Their eternal souls are at stake, not a small thing in my eyes, so I am very angry about this issue since it’s personal it’s real.
But it is not only affecting me, it is rampant, this lying and lukewarmness, twisting of the scriptures.
I hate it.

Comment by Barbara | May 17, 2009
The Bible clearly teaches us that repentance is a prerequisite for salvation.Going through the sinners prayer without any conviction of sin and repentance is just mouthing a prayer. Salvation and repentance goes together and repentance is not works.Works don’t save, only Jesus saves.Paul Washer is emphasising that preachers need to be forthright and frank about this or jeopardise the salvation of many.It’s also putting the fear of the Lord into the hearts of brethen who have strayed into a life of sin and call them back to repentance and to the Lord. While santification is an ongoing process, claiming to be saved and yet living in sin just don’t jive.I don’t know much about Paul Washer but his call for preachers to speak the truth without compromise is timely especially with the current trend of preaching an easy-believism type of gospel
that gives many a false hope of salvation.

Barry K

Comment by Barry K | May 17, 2009
@Jamie, have you seen more video’s or heard more sermons from Washer? He knows about grace a lot. This video here us just made of some quotes, but Washer speaks also about grace and the great love of God.

Comment by Ruitje | May 17, 2009
Icant possibly leave this thread without responding in part to comments posted by Grant regarding Lordship Salvation.It is impossible for the sincere believer to seperate justification[forgiveness through the blood of Christ] and santification[ regeneration through the work of the Spirit] Romans 6 ‘what shall we say then? .Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? .By no means!.How can we who died to sin still live in it” and further in Romans 6:14 “for sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under law but under grace. 1 John 3: 9 “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he can not keep on sinning because he has been born of God , verse 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice rightousness is not of God , nor is the one who does not love his brother.” Grant , may i strongly suggest that you give scripture credence over the writtings of Ironside and Rice ,you have not only confused yourself , but many others also.The apostle Paul uses the analogy of running a race in describing the christian life 1 Cor 9 :24 “Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize?. So run that you may obtain it” Paul is exhorting his readers to give their all . Starting the race { salvation } is important, competing in the race { sanctification} is important finishing the race { glorification} is important.Grant, a man can not have salvation and turn his back on God and hope to fall over the line into heaven,it is this issue that i believe Paul Washer is addressing in this video to these 5000 people , that we need to be sincere about our faith, this is not a works based faith ,rather it is allowing the Spirit to work in us, turning us away from sin.

Comment by ray | May 17, 2009
Barry said:

“Some of you long winded ones sound like you have all the answers. Well, you don’t”

You make interesting points but how does your response above line up with scripture?

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”

- 2 Timothy 2:24 – 25

I wish you God’s best this week.

Comment by R | May 17, 2009
Jesus Heals:
Isa is the Islamic version of another Jesus.
There must be no margin for error that neither the Islamic Isa nor Allah have anything in common with the bible.
So I would avoid both names to make that clear.
I have heard that some Ex-Muslims call Jesus Christ Iesua or similar.
Isa will bring all the world into the religion of Allah.
We all know, who that will be.

Comment by gyod | May 17, 2009
Jamie,
while these last minutes conversions do happen, the call is to seek God while he can be found. If that was the case with the drug addict, fine. But God even threatens to send strong illusions to those who are unwilling to accept the truth. To leave the rest of the audience thinking that everything was ok, since once upon a time he accepted Jesus, is stretching God’s mercy too much. I guess the preacher was just too afraid to rock the boat and provoke a scandal.
But he was leaving untold numbers of that people in slumber.

Comment by gyod | May 17, 2009
Grant , here are a few other scripture references you might like to study, im sorry they wern’t included in the preceeding post.
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins , and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 26:19-20
Therefore O King Agrippa,i was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in damascus, then then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea and also to the gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.
Luke 24:47
that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all nations.

Comment by ray | May 17, 2009
AMEN!!

Craig, if he was into acting, i think he’d be at some studio. And Grant, since when does God condone sin in “Saved” people? A piece of the bible regularly, conveniently skipped over, is where Jesus tells the woman: “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11 KJV)

And Hebrews 10:26-27 (KJV), which states clearly: “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

OSAS is incompatible with these last two verses.

Comment by Koos | May 17, 2009
Grant no last name

1. “What about Lot? “Lot lived so sinfully” that his sons-in-law laughed in his face when he tried to warn them concerning the judgment to come.”
Uh, where is that exactly in the Bible? You are adding to the Word, and NOT quoting it. Dangerous habit.
Don’t say stuff that was not in there. I will take Peter’s word for it over yours.
In 2 Peter
2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked.
The word for just is dikaios which means “RIGHTEOUS”. He was vexed which is “kataponeo” or EXHAUSTED by the goings on where he lived.

———————————

2. “There’s drums in the background on Paul Washer’s video, which have no place in any church.”

ARE YOU FOR REAL??????????

In Psalms
150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Looks like YOU have no place in any church lol.

———————————-

3. “You can’t show me even one Scripture that mentions “repenting from sin” to be saved.”

Are you for real

In Acts alone
2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? [to be saved, duh]
2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, SAVE yourselves from this untoward generation.

17:30 And the times of this ignorance God blinked at; but now commands all men everywhere to REPENT.

26:15 And I said, “Who art you, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you persecute.
26:16 But rise, and stand upon your feet: for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto you;
26:17 Delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send you,
26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Me.”
26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works suitable for repentance.
26:21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

etc

ps: what you said about billy grey-ham is true tho.

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | May 17, 2009
24 REASONS WHY “GOSPEL-ACTS-EPISTLES”
HERMENEUTIC IS INCORRECT
http://www.inchristalone.org/24%20Reasons%20GAE%20is%20Wrong.pdf

From a blog about Lordship Salvation by JM Whalen:

The good news is not stop sinning-that is not the gospel of Christ of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, for that is truly bad news,for no one can stop sinning, or turn from all their sins, and, more importantly, justification is not dependent on this. . Stop sinning is sanctification, our “walk” of service as sons not justification. People are making the condition of justification to be stop sinning-No! The simple requirement is BELIEF-this is simple, and this is the only requirement. We must not make the requirement for justification conditioned on something we do=that is a work. “Turning from sin”, “stop sinning” are works.

I may sound like “a broken record”, but we all need to “call” anyone that attempts to pervert the gospel of Christ with another gospel, which is NOT GOOD NEWS(Galatians Chapter 1), but is under a curse. That is,any attempts to add a works-based performance system as a requirement for justification, and that includes the erroneous notion that “repent”, in the context of salvation, means “to turn from your sins”, should be sternly rebuked.. This is “serious business” folks-souls are at stake. Justification is a one time event, and repentance, as it pertains to justification, and salvation from the penalty of sin(notice I did not say repentance as it pertains to salvation from the power of sin, which is SANCTIFICATION), is also a one time event.

We should not stand idly by and allow someone to make the typical “Lordship Salvation” argument, which is also under a curse, by confusing SERVICE=SANCTIFICATION with salvation. The biblical order is sonship, then service, and not vica versa. We must define this word as the Holy Bible does, and this is not just semantics. And the Holy Bible defines repent simply as “to change one’s mind or heart”-it is that simple. The context of the subject matter determines what one must “change your mind” about.

How do we know that repent means “change of mind”? As shown, because the LORD God repented. No believer would claim that the LORD God can sin.

But repentance is never defined as “turning from your sins”, “a work that requires something on our part”,”getting sin out of your life”, “stop continually and intentionally keep doing the same thing” “changing your actions”, as it pertains to justification(declaration of righteousness) of the sinner, and is never made a prerequisite, an “up front charge” in any of the presentation of the “gospel of Christ”, the “gospel of the grace of God”, as presented by the apostle Paul in Romans through Philemon, and as outlined in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5-never. Repent, as it refers to man and his acceptance by a Holy God with regards to justification, refers to man changing his mind about himself and his ability to save himself through a performance based system, i.e., “The Law”. It is a “mental about face”, a realization of man’s own sinfulness(conviction), an abhorrence of oneself(Isaiah’s “…Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips….” -6:5), an “I cannot save myself-only the LORD God can save me” mindset.

As I have said many times, the Biblical order is SONSHIP(justification), then SERVICE(sanctification). Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial “horse before the cart”, and are confusing service to our Father as sons with service to become sons. Those who make statements such as “make Jesus Lord of your life”, “turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus”(despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything!), make this deadly error.

I ask everyone to ask themselves if they have “stopped sinning”, “turned from all their sins”. I have not, but I thank the LORD that my salvation is not, and cannot be, dependent on what I do, but was already done 2000 years ago by the Lord Jesus Christ, by his faith, and all the LORD God asks is that I believe it! News, by definition, is something that has already happened!

Now, everyone who takes this stand, be ready for “the afflictions of the gospel”(2 Tim. 1:8).

In and with Christ,

John M. Whalen

PS: Who ever heard of “hiring your boss?”=Lordship Salvation
The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord, in the sense here of master, owner, controller, “boss”, not because we “make” him such, but because God the Father gave him this position:

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God(my emphasis) hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ(my emphasis).” Acts 2:36

Whether we believe it or not, does not change this fact.

Comment by grant | May 18, 2009
When a man has touched more than mere religion, but has seen and senses that eternity will one day be real for each and every one of us. That there will be only two choices..heaven and hell. There will be no escape, no last minute reprieve whilst standing at the great white throne. The man who could be your saviour now stands as your judge.
The man who endured all on a cross, whose death you have mocked and ignored and slanted now stands before you in all his glory. We have realed from the reality that one day that apointment will be kept.

For the many false teachers that Paul Washers mentiones, who have fleeced the sheep of more than their money but have also decieved them. In some case dammned them with their false religion. Only God knows how many these people are personnely responible for damming to hell.

Hell is be a serious issue. The church has lost that sense of reality. We dont preach it but ignore it. But that does not measn it will go away.

We need to get real! Maybe someone needs to get angry. We just dont get it at times. The decievers have preyed on the sheep, they have become wealthy with a message of ease and comfort. “Dont worry God is a grovy guy , he loves us so much he will let anyone into heaven on any basis” God is a God of purity, righteousness and holiness. One day that God will judge everyone. The Benny Hinns and Joel Osteens will all be there and We will be there. Which judgement will it be. Saved or not saved. Utill we grasp hold that this is real. Its not a joke, or some movie were the good guy gets of. The only way out is Jesus here and now. If we wait until its too late, it will be too late. Pauy Washer knows this. He is crying out to everyone in hearing of his voice. This is one of the most serious issues in the Bible. Paul Washer knows it. The question is do we?

Comment by james | May 18, 2009
CLARITY TRUMPET a publication of
CLARITY MINISTRIES INTERNATIONAL

Understanding Repentance

There is one and only one condition for man
to meet in order to obtain salvation:
So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
and you will be saved. . . (Acts 16:31).
But to him who does not work but believes on
Him who justifies [declares righteous] the ungodly, his
faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5).
Over one hundred and sixty times in the
New Testament God gives the single condition of
believing in Christ for obtaining salvation or eternal
life. The few verses that appear to present other
conditions for being saved do not really do so when
they are considered in their respective contexts. It
is safe and very Biblical to declare that salvation is
by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.
The above statement being true, repentance
is not, nor can it be, another step or condition for obtaining
salvation. It is, however, something that happens
with every unbeliever who becomes a believer
in Christ. “How,” you might ask, “can repentance
be a necessity and yet not be a step one must take in
order to obtain God’s salvation?”

The Biblical Meaning of Repentance
The answer to the above question is best
answered by observing the Bible’s definition of repentance
in contrast to man’s view of it.
The Greek word translated “repentance” is
metanoia and always means a change of mind or attitude.
For instance, the apostle Paul described the
Gospel message he preached as “repentance toward
God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:21).
I believe it is safe to say that every nonbeliever has
some misconception concerning God and how to
be in right relationship with Him through Christ. It
is impossible, therefore, for an unbeliever to become
a believer in Christ without having a change of mind
or attitude concerning God and His offer of salvation.
That’s Biblical repentance.
Why Biblical Repentance is Not a Work, But
Man’s Idea of Repentance is a Work
For salvation a person must change his
mind from any misconception he has about God or
His way of salvation. And God’s way of salvation
is always by grace through faith in Jesus Christ
without the addition of any human merit or works of
any kind. Therefore, if man must repent to be
saved, repentance cannot be something unsaved
people can point to as having some human worth
or merit by which to commend themselves to God.
The way a man thinks about God is the real
issue, not what sins he may or may not have committed.
This is demonstrated so beautifully in
Second Corinthians 4:3-6: But even if our gospel is
veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
whose minds the god of this world [that’s Satan] has
blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel
of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should
shine on them. . . . For it is the God who commanded
light to shine out of darkness who has shone in our
hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of
God in the face of Jesus Christ.
In contrast to God’s Word, man defines
repentance as turning from sin, being sorry for sin
or quitting certain more obvious sins or bad habits.
By this definition repentance, and therefore salvation,
would be by man’s works or efforts instead of
by God’s matchless and undeserving grace.
The issue is not turning from sin; it is
changing one’s mind toward Christ and trusting in
Him for salvation. Turning from sin would involve
service, which is only demanded of one who
is already saved. Salvation, on the other hand, is
always a gift, never the result of what we do concerning
our sins. It is trusting in Christ and what
He has done about our sins that saves.
The Unbeliever’s Dilemma
An unsaved person cannot really please
God even if he does “good works.” Romans 8:8 is
pretty clear on this point: So then, those who are in
the flesh [the natural man] cannot please God. And
Isaiah 64:6 removes any hope of man relying on his
goodness when it declares that “all our rigthousnesses
[that’s the best we can do] are as filthy rags. . . “
It is only after one has come to Christ by faith
that he, as a member of God’s family, is commanded
to change his life. Such changes undoubtedly involve
turning from or leaving certain sinful habits.
In fact, the Bible makes that very clear. For instance,
Titus 2:11, 12: For the grace of God that brings salvation
has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying
[renouncing, rejecting] ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the
present age. You might want to also look up Romans
12:1,2; 13:14; Ephesians 2:10; and 4:27-32.

An Urgent Reminder
If you are to be effective in making God’s
saving Gospel clear to the unsaved world you
must become convinced that any teaching that
demands a change of conduct on the part of the
unbeliever before God will accept him and give him
salvation, is adding works or human effort to faith and
it contradicts all clear Scriptures on salvation. It is,
in fact, an accursed message that cannot save.
See Galatians 1:8, 9 and Deuteronomy 27:18.

Rediscoving the Correct Emphasis
It is due largely to the wrong emphasis on
this matter of repentance that so many unsaved folks
feel they can’t be saved until they give up their beer,
or cigarettes, or swearing or whatever. The confusion
has come from the Christian professionals who
have themselves been mistaught in Bible school or
seminary. But, thank God, not all have just followed
the theological crowd. Here, for instance, are some
of my favorite quotes from spiritual giants of the
past.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, D.D., Litt.D, ThD,
founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, in his Systematic
Theology, Volumn III on Soteriology, page 372,
writes: “The word Metanoia is in every instance
translated repentance. The word means a change of
mind. The common practice of reading into this
word the thought of sorrow and heart-anguish is
responsible for much confusion in the field of
Soteriology.”
Harry A. Ironside, Litt.D, Except Ye Repent,
pages 12-15: “But in order to clarify the subject, it
may be well to observe carefully what repentance is
not, and then to notice what it is.
First, then, repentance is not to be confounded
with penitence. . . penitence is simply sorrow
for sin. . . Nowhere is man exhorted to feel a
certain amount of sorrow for his sins in order to
come to Christ.
Second, penance is not repentance. Penance
is an effort in some way to atone for the wrong done.
In the third place, let us remember that reformation
is not repentance.
Need I add that repentance then is not to be
considered synonymous with joining a church, or
taking up one’s religious duties, as people say. It is
not doing anything.
The Greek word, metanoia, which is translated
“repentance” in our English Bibles, literally
means a change of mind.”
William L. Pettingill, D.D., Bible Questions
Answered, pages 215-216: “What place has repentance
in salvation? Should we tell people to repent
of their sins to be saved? The Gospel of John
is the Holy Spirit’s Gospel Tract, written that men
might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God;
and that believing they might have life through His
name (20:31). And it does not mention the word
“repentance.” But that is only because repentance
is a necessary part of saving faith. Strictly speaking,
the word repentance means a “change of mind.”
It is by no means the same as sorrow (II Corinthians
7:10). Since it is not possible for an unbeliever to
become a believer without changing his mind, it is
therefore unnecessary to say anything about it. The
only thing for a man to do in order to be saved is to
believe on the Lord Jesus Christ: and to believe on
Him is the same thing as receiving Him (John 1:11-
13).

A Personal Plea
This article is not an attempt to split
some theological hair; it is a sincere effort
to help God’s people who desire to reach
the unbelieving world with the Gospel to
share that Gospel in a clear, understandable
and Biblical way.
Richard A. Seymour Clarity Trumpet #27
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post Office Box 10 • LaGrange, WY 82221-0010

Comment by grant | May 18, 2009
Ah, the only problem with Paul washer is his very strong calvanist views. Which in some cases are ok and in others case are severely not ok. Over all I think Paul washer preaches a good message. Yes there are one or 2 things I disagree but overall he is not too bad.
Oh another thing, it would seem most of the people at his ministry believe in amillenialism. Errrr…that was a St Augustine concoction wans’t it?
Anyhow, Paul has some really good things to say a lot of the time. We don’t follow men anyhow, we follow the Word of God.
Comment by Discerning The World | May 15, 2009
———

Grant said:
Paul David Washer is a false prophet, a member of the apostate Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), who teaches Lordship Salvation. Here’s a one hour video sermon where Mr. Washer brainwashes a group of 5,000 youths to believe that they cannot be saved unless they stop living in sin.

And

That is a false Gospel. In one statement Paul Washer says that we are saved by faith alone; but then in the next statement he subtly requires giving up one’s sinful lifestyle to be saved. This is not faith alone.

And

Please read the best explanation I’ve ever read concerning the Gospel and repentance, by Pastor Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951). Clearly, Ironside taught a Free Grace view of the Gospel. Consider further the following quote by Dr. Ironside…
“The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel;

——————————–

There seems to be a lot of confusion here about what Washer believes and preaches.

From my own experience with Washer’s preaching I see that “Discerning the Word” has the more accurate perception of where Washer is coming from.

I have heard and seen video of the sermon to 5000 youth that Grant mentions. My impression of that sermon was NOT that the Youth needed to stop sinning in order to be saved. He was saying that salvation WILL bring a noticeable difference to someone’s life. A saved person will not continue living like the world. Therefore if someone who considers himself to be saved IS still living like the world, then it is most likely that they are not saved.
If I have a problem with this particular message it would come from Washer’s apparent Calvinist leanings – because according to those doctrines the youth could do nothing about their situation. According to Calvinism, those youth could only be saved if God had already predestined them to salvation, so no matter what Washer preached, those youth could do nothing to receive salvation and therefore have their behaviour changed.
.
As for the quote from Ironside, that states “The gospel is not a call to repentance” – I suggest Mr Ironside should have addressed this issue with the apostle Paul, who said:

Acts 26:20 (New International Version)
“First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.”

There is NO gospel without repentance because the benefits of the gospel can not be obtained without that initial turning from ourselves towards God – true repentance evidenced by the demonstration of fruit in the life of the person who has repented. EVERYONE record in scripture of someone preaching the gospel had their message starting with the word “repent”.

And yes “Discerning the Word”, Amillenialism WAS Augustine’s concoction, but in Augustine’s amillenialism is should more correctly be seen as post-millenialism. I understand that He expected Jesus to return at the end of the first millennium – however, when this did not happen, the literal 1000 year millennium was changed into a “spritualised” and not a literal 1000 years covering the whole church age.
Augustine is also the one who came up with many of the doctrines that are now attributed to Calvinism.

Comment by onesimus | May 18, 2009
Just to avoid misunderstanding, I found Washer’s sermon to the 5,000 youth was and excellent sermon.
I also found a great deal of help from a series he preached on Holiness.
But I found some of his other sermons left a bit to be desired -and after learning of his possible Calvinist leanings I can understand why. It was a shame those messages didn’t go along more with scripture instead of being based on assumptions that arise from a theological tradition.

Comment by onesimus | May 18, 2009
Comment by Jesus Heals | May 18, 2009
REPENTANCE is not works.Christ died on the cross specifically for our SINS to restore us into fellowship with a HOLY GOD.Therefore to be restored into fellowship with God, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our SIN and lostness and points us to Jesus for salvation.Turning to Jesus to save us from our lost state and hell would hence necessitate a deliberate decision and choice on our part in making an about turn from our SIN and old life, and redirect ourselves towards the saving grace of a Holy God.That is repentance and it is not works. The works that is necessary to save is already finished on Calvary.Our SIN is the reason Jesus died on Calvary, and to make light of the neccesity of repenting from our personal sins is to make light of God sacrifice of His Son to save us.The evidence of true repentance and conversion is in the changed lives of those born again.This is only made possible because the Holy Spirit who now resides in the new believer supernaturally enables him to live the new life in Jesus.This change which comes after salvation is works but not ours but that of the Holy Spirit.This change might be dramatic or it might be gradual or not noticable at all, depending on ones previous background.Of course we do sin but the santifying work of God continues. We remain work in progress. I therefore find it hard to understand why some still think repentance is not an essential prerequisite to salvation and confuse it with works.It explains why Paul Washer emphasises on judging by the fruits and not on whether we have said the sinners prayer.

Barry K

Comment by Barry K | May 18, 2009
Onesimumus

>> it would seem most of the people at his ministry believe in amillenialism. Errrr…that was a St Augustine concoction wans’t it?

Please would you expand and explain what amillenialism is in simplish terms for others here as well as its history?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 18, 2009
I like preaching that calls Christians to live out their faith and not use grace as an excuse to keep sinning. The essence of John the Baptist’s preaching was to those calling themselves God’s people and it involved repenting from their sins since the axe was laid at the root of the tree, (the judgment of God was about to fall on Jerusalem).

But like Onesimus I am not Calvinist and disagree with Calvinist teachings. I mean there is no force in calling to repentance if someone beleives they are once saved always saved.

Unlike Onesimus, I do agree with the amillennial position. Here is a good outline and summation here:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/millenniumisnotflethcer.htm

Comment by BB | May 18, 2009
Dear Craig.

I am puzzled why you should post this verse in so many translations:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For the one who has shown no mercy will be judged without mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Consider this:
Say I believe in Christ but have not yet repented of mercilessness. I still do not show mercy. Does this mean I will get no mercy from God?

Does this verse say God will Judge me then without mercy?

If I do repent and show mercy will this be deemed works?

I haven’t watched the video in question and don’t intend to. I hear what both sides of this debate says but something about your reasoning bothers me.

blessings
Francois

Comment by Francois | May 18, 2009
this is too powerful! PREACH IT BROTHER!!! HALLELUJAH AND GLORY BE TO JESUS!

Comment by ItsHellWithoutJesus | May 18, 2009
BB,
Your amillennial author’s arguments are badly flawed. Right at the start, his principles of interpretation are going to lead him up the garden path. He says, ‘The Old Covenant, which was the sole and only basis of the national relationship of Israel to God, was a temporary arrangement, and has vanished away, never to be restored. “in that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13). Thus was dissolved the national relationship to God of the nation Israel after the flesh and that forever.’

The covenant that was dissolved was the law of Moses (Heb 8:9) which was conditional on Israel’s performance, but the promise to Abraham of the land of Israel (Gen 15:18-21;18:8) was unconditional and therefore must be fulfilled. God will do this, according to prophecy, by making the remnant of the nation of Israel righteous (i.e. Messianic believers in Jesus) (Rom 11:26) and establishing his throne in Zion.

All fulfilled prophecy in scripture is literally fulfilled; there is no example of a prophecy fulfilled in a spiritual manner but not literally; therefore all prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled will be literally fulfilled. Otherwise, we are totally lost and at the mercy of anyone with a fancy interpretative theory. (Some prophecies have had a partial fulfilment with a further or greater fulfilment to come. So John the Baptist was, for those who received it, Elijah that was to come; but for the nation as a whole which did not believe then, Elijah is still to come and many think he will be one of the two witnesses of Rev 11.)

The Jews will be saved as a result of faith in Jesus, but they will remain a distinct people. They are not the same as the church, the mixed body of Jews and Gentiles which was a mystery (concealed in the OT but revealed in the NT). But in this present age, some Jews are members of the church and will receive the church’s spiritual blessings, while the nation of Israel is still apostate. Your author wishes to conflate the two into one, but the church is to be removed before the end of this age because its part will have been played. Israel is the focus of the end-time prophecies, which helps to resolve the confusion that many people have. Daniel 9, prophesies the final 490 years, of which 483 were fulfilled and finished at Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem. AFTER that, Messiah was cut off (crucified) and 38 years after that Jerusalem was destroyed. The last 7 years begin after that, but no one knows when they will begin. But we do know that they are for Israel, Daniel’s people. Similarly, Matthew 24-25 is a prophecy for Israel. First, because the mystery of the church was not revealed until after the resurrection. Second, because Jesus’ ministry was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles (Matt 15:24). Third, the hearers are told to pray that their flight will not be on the Sabbath; this is irrelevant to non-Jews.

Six times Revelation 20 says that Jesus will reign with his saints on earth for 1000 years. If such an explicit prophecy can be denied only because it is in the “book of Symbols”, there is no firm foundation for any understanding of prophecy.

Comment by Oliver | May 18, 2009
7. Onesimus
>> it would seem most of the people at his ministry believe in amillenialism. Errrr…that was a St Augustine concoction wans’t it?
Please would you expand and explain what amillenialism is in simplish terms for others here as well as its history?
Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 18, 2009
——————————–

There is a link to a sermon by David Pawson on my blog in which he speaks on the millennium. He addresses the beliefs of amillenialism, post millennialism and pre-millenialism. That would be of much more value than anything I could say about the difference between these beliefs.

http://onefiles.blogspot.com/2008/04/links-to-recommended-sermons.html

The people I know who claim to be amillennialists claim that the millennium is the church age between Jesus resurrection and His second coming. When Augustine promoted this belief, it was still possible that Jesus would return 1000 years after His resurrection. However, since that obviously did not occur, the 1000 years is now seen as not being literal. According to this belief we are CURRENTLY living in the “millenium”. But scripture tells us that the millennium will be a time when Satan will be bound and imprisoned for 1000 years and will be unable to deceive the nations during that time.
Amillenialists tend to focus on the binding of Satan and forget everything else that is prophesied; and in their view his binding merely limits his influence instead of cancelling his influence all together as scripture clearly states.

Comment by onesimus | May 18, 2009
Hi Oliver,

To be sure principles of interpretation will lead to different interpretations. I’m not pretrib and totally reject that approach to interpreting Revelation and prophecy since it continues to divide Jew and Gentile both made one by His death acc. to Eph. 2:11-22.

Here is a snippet of some of the problems with a 1000 year reign on earth pointed out in the link I provided above:

B. INTERNAL EVIDENCE

1. The Absurdities of Literalism

A literal interpretation of all the factors in Revelation 20 creates more difficulties than it solves. For instance, a literal chain could not bind one possessed with demons (Mark 5:3,4). How shall we believe that the Devil can be bound by a material chain, being a pure though unholy spirit himself? Again, is the Devil literally a dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and a tail dragging after him a third part of the stars of Heaven (compare Rev. 12:3,4))? Are we to take “bottomless pit” and “set a seal upon him” literally?

While we should carefully shun all spiritualization, however ingenious, which robs the Word of God of its true force and beauty, we should shun with equal care a false literalism which extracts error out of figurative statements. There is danger on both sides, and we can only hope to avoid it by using the best sources of information which the Lord puts within our reach, and by relying continually on the guidance and keeping of the Holy Spirit.

In a symbolic narrative we should read literally only in such places as the author has evidently departed from symbolism. Notwithstanding this simple rule, there are many who either literalize its symbols, or who do not uniformly interpret them.

Floyd E. Hamilton, in his book “The Basis of Millennial Faith,” shows that the division of God’s people during the millennium into several separate groups is one of the incongruous features of premillennialism. From the writings of pretribulationists, he enumerates several such groups:

“(1) The church with glorified bodies dwelling in the sky.
(2) The glorified Jewish group of believers who were martyred during the tribulation.
(3) The group of Gentile tribulation “saints” who are said to be raised at the close of the tribulation period but who do not join the church in the skies.
(4) The believing Jews who enter the millennium in natural bodies.
(5) The believing Gentiles who enter the millennium in natural bodies.
(6) The Jewish believers who die during the millennium.
(7) The Gentile believers who die during the millennium.

There is not a scintilla of evidence for these arbitrary divisions of God’s people, during a supposed AFTER the Advent millennium, by the Futurists.

Mr. Hamilton concludes: “The different parts of their theory have been held independently and they have never seriously faced the logical implication of the separate parts or attempted to compare the contradictory implications” (p. 139).

“What with the great tribulation, the parousia, the rapture, the aions, the remnant, the revelation, eight covenants, seven dispensations, three comings of Christ, four judgment days, two endings of the world, several sets of last days, and three resurrection days, I submit there has been grafted into the simple Word of God an elaborate system of interpretation which could never occur to the ordinary believer through an unbiased reading of the Bible.”
(The Hope of His Coming” by Charles E. Brown, P. 71).

Comment by BB | May 18, 2009
Francois,

Perhaps you have already learned that you meant Grant, and not Craig in your post? Craig has never to my knowledge been off in his theology. And I agree with you, there is something off with Grant.

Craig,

Thank you for finding that YouTube address for me! You are a gent. I would so appreciate your prayers for my e-mail efforts to this pastor who was so generous with his prayers and counsel when my family went through its crises. How I long for the eyes of his heart to be opened to see his deception.

Comment by Karen Butler | May 19, 2009
The article, still unanswered, to the Premillennialist Argument and the Millennium. The Millennium is the core argument in determining the validity of the system. If that aspect of a theological system in eschatology goes under, the system itself goes under. Fowler White gives a great critique on this in view of the Millennium chapters of Revelation.

Reexamining the Evidence for Recapitulation in Rev 20:1-10
by Dr. R. Fowler White
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/WhiteFowlerRecapitulationRev19.htm

Comment by BB | May 19, 2009
Personally I prefer to believe and accept what scripture says about the millennium. I don’t need a convoluted theological system to tell me how I should interpret what I’m reading and why I should not believe what is clearly being said.

I’m simple enough to believe that if scripture tells me satan will (in the future) be removed from influence and will not be able to deceive the nations for 1000 years I’ll believe THAT and not man’s attempts to discredit what scripture clearly says.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009
Funny Onesimus, you pointed to a man, Pawson, to explain the Scripture. Which is it?

Comment by BB | May 19, 2009
Satan is bound and kept from deceiving the nations IN ORDER TO ASSEMBLE THEM TOGETHER. That is what Rev. 20:7-10 teaches. When Satan is released what does he do. He does what he has been kept from doing….assembling the nations together into a one world army against Christ and His people.

God has kept Satan from doing this but in these last days the beast will come out of the abyss to persecute and make war against God’s people to kill them (see Rev. 11 and 17). For one hour Satan will be permitted to deceive the whole world. That happens before Jesus returns…not while Jesus is reigning on some throne for 1000 years. Tt’s absurd to think that Satan could deceieve the whole world after Jesus is ruling for 1000 years.

If one studies the olivet discourse it clearly tells us that the end is the end with no 1000 year millennium AFTER His return.

Comment by BB | May 19, 2009
Hi Oliver

There are a couple of points i would like to raise with you regarding your view of Isreal .
The term Isreal refers historically to a people of God. The fact that we have a nation and people who use that name presently does in no way connect them to prophecy regarding “Isreal” . For instance ,in Exodus 33: 5 ” For the Lord had said to Moses ,say to the people of Isreal, you are a stiff necked people” .Long before the jews entered the land of palestine ,they were the people of Isreal.God did indeed take these people as His own people , and reading any of the old testament prophets reveals God continued frustration with the jews , as well as Gods willingness to extend mercy to those who would obey Him. In Isiah 65:2-3 we read “I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good following their own devices; a people who provoke me to my face continually”God had clearly had enough of these people. Despite Gods anger and frustration though ,His covenant with Abraham still stood.,for through the lineage of Isaac,Jacob and David , Christ came into the world and established the everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham Genesis 17: 7 ” And I will establish my covenant between me and you and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant” .To think the nation of Isreal as we see it today have a special dispensation from God , while born again believers through grace are somewhat a sub standard people is in no way supported by scripture. This is the content of Romans where by Paul is asserting the argument that all believers are one in Christ , whether they be the faithfull who lived before the cross or greeks , romans and jews who believed in Christ.Once we are able to comprehend the fact that Isreal is not a physical nation but a body of believers faithful to God , many more scriptures begin to fall into place, regarding Gods promises to His people.
Also Oliver your understanding of the seventy weeks of Daniel, while being a popular interpretation with a lot of people ,is a seriously flawed one .If you are open minded on this , may i suggest you go to “mountainretreatorg” and search The seventy weeks of Daniel by Tony Warren .His study on this passage of scripture is by far the most authoritve analysis, using scripture to interpret scripture that i have come across.If you are willing to heed Gods interpretation you will have a completly different understanding of this very important passage , while you are on that site , there are many studies pertaining to the amillenial view of scripture . It is very good reading.

Comment by ray | May 19, 2009
from the post on 5/15 I noted at the beginning ” Good passionate message but note there are those who note error in the lordship salvation doctrine such as David J. Stewart”: and the rest was from his blog-I’ll give him the credit concerning Paul Washer and Lordship Salvation and some folks concerns about the post

Comment by grant | May 19, 2009
Funny Onesimus, you pointed to a man, Pawson, to explain the Scripture. Which is it?

Comment by BB | May 19, 2009
———-

No BB,
I pointed to Pawson’s message in which he details the different doctrines that surround the millennium. He does a better job than I could could to explain what these differences are.

That is not pointing to him to explain the scripture. It is pointing to him to explain the different man-made doctrines that arise when they depart from scripture. People can assess for themselves which fits the actual scriptural account. Hopefully they would do this by searching the scriptures for themselves and seeing what the Bible itself says.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009
If one studies the olivet discourse it clearly tells us that the end is the end with no 1000 year millennium AFTER His return.

——-
And if one studies Revelation it clearly tells us that there IS a 1000 year period in which Satan has been removed and Jesus reigns on the earth with His saints.

And what does this prove? That a doctrine needs to take into account the WHOLE of scripture. When we look at individual parts we are only getting part of the picture.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009
As to your point that we take the whole of Scripture into account, I agree. Which is why we must put ALL the facts together. And when we do we realize that the 1000 year number is a symbol for a long period of time and not to be taken literally. Satan was indeed bound by the Strong Man, Jesus, at the cross. Jesus at His ascension began to reign and Satan has been chained in the darkness (‘tartarus’ in Peter and ‘blackness of darkness’ by Jude).

Here is what Adam Clarke has to say about this ‘abyss’ or ‘bottomless pit’where the devil was chained. It is a spiritual realm of darkness:

But cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness
αλλασειραιςζοφουταρταρωσαςπαρεδωκενειςκρισιν τετηρημενους.

But with chains of darkness confining them in Tartarus, delivered them over to be kept to judgment; or, sinking them into Tartarus, delivered them over into custody for punishment, to chains of darkness. Chains of darkness is a highly poetic expression. Darkness binds them on all hands; and so dense and strong is this darkness that it cannot be broken through; they cannot deliver themselves, nor be delivered by others.

As the word Tartarus is found nowhere else in the New Testament, nor does it appear in the Septuagint, we must have recourse to the Greek writers for its meaning. Mr. Parkhurst, under the word ταρταροω, has made some good collections from those writers, which I here subjoin.

“The ancient Greeks appear to have received, by tradition, an account of the punishment of the ‘fallen angels,’ and of bad men after death; and their poets did, in conformity I presume with that account, make Tartarus the place where the giants who rebelled against Jupiter, and the souls of the wicked, were confined. ‘Here,’ saith Hesiod, Theogon., lin. 720,1, ‘the rebellious Titans were bound in penal chains.’

τοσσονενερθυπογηςοσονουρανοςεσταπογαιης ισονγαρταπογηςεςταρταρονηεροεντα

‘As far beneath the earth as earth from heaven; For such the distance thence to Tartarus.’

Which description will very well agree with the proper sense of Tartarus, if we take the earth for the centre of the material system, and reckon from our zenith, or the extremity of the heavens that is over our heads. But as the Greeks imagined the earth to be of a boundless depth, so it must not be dissembled that their poets speak of Tartarus as a vast pit or gulf in the bowels of it. Thus Hesiod in the same poem, lin. 119, calls it-

ταρταρατηεροενταμυχωχθονοςευρυοδειης.

‘Black Tartarus, within earth’s spacious womb.’

“And Homer, Iliad viii., lin. 13, threatening any of the gods who should presume to assist either the Greeks or the Trojans, that he should either come back wounded to heaven, or be sent to Tartarus.

ημινελωνριψωεςταρταρονηερεντα τηλεμαληχιβαθιστονυποχθονοςεστιβεπεθρον ενθασιδηρειαιτεπυλαικαιχαλκεοςουδος τοσσονενερθαιδεωοσονονρανοςεσταπογαιης

‘Or far, O far, from steep Olympus thrown, Low in the deep Tartarean gulf shall groan. That gulf which iron gates and brazen ground Within the earth inexorably bound; As deep beneath th’ infernal centre hurl’d, As from that centre to the ethereal world.’ POPE.

‘Where, according to Homer’s description, Iliad viii., lin. 480,1,-

ουταυγηςυπεριονοςηελιοιο τερποντουτανεμοισι. βαθυςδετεταρταροςαμοις

‘No sun e’er gilds the gloomy horrors there, No cheerful gales refresh the lazy air, But murky Tartarus extends around.’ POPE.

“Or, in the language of the old Latin poet, (cited by Cicero, Tuscul., lib. i. cap. 15,)

Ubi rigida constat crassa caligo inferum.

“On the whole, then, ταρταρουν, in St. Peter, is the same as ριπτεινεςταρταρον, to throw into Tartarus, in Homer, only rectifying the poet’s mistake of Tartarus being in the bowels of the earth, and recurring to the original sense of that word above explained, which when applied to spirits must be interpreted spiritually; and thus ταρταρωσας will import that God cast the apostate angels out of his presence into that ζοφοςτουσκοτους, blackness of darkness, 2:17; ; Jude 1:13,) where they will be for ever banished from the light of his countenance, and from the beatifying influence of the ever blessed Three, as truly as a person plunged into the torpid boundary of this created system would be from the light of the sun and the benign operations of the material heavens.”

By chains of darkness we are to understand a place of darkness and wretchedness, from which it is impossible for them to escape.,/b>

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2pe&chapter=002

Comment by BB | May 19, 2009
Grant,

I will say this as kindly as I can, and I hope you will hear the compassion I feel for you as I write. I was thinking of you when I wrote the exhortation to pray before sending, because you seemed to miss Washer’s strong points entirely, and instead you seized upon the opportunity to press your pet issue of Lordship Salvation, and your love for Ironside, into a frame that it did not fit.

I identify with your dilemma. I have benefited so much from Onesimus’ wise advice, given when I hotly debated him on the Mark Driscoll thread, to drop my predilection for quoting my favorite theologians and base my argument on the word of God alone. My blindness to the truth of his exhortation led to a blasphemy that grieved the Lord’s spirit, and I underwent a painful and public repentance. I say this because your words are doing a great disservice to Paul Washer, who like you, is the bondslave of Christ, but unlike most of us typing our judgments of him, has served his Lord by taking the gospel to the unreached peoples of Peru. I think you are grieving the spirit of God with your words.

Can you perhaps learn from the model of my friend Onesimus, who I well know passionately opposes Calvinism, (has called it a doctrine of demons elsewhere!) Though he detects what he might consider elsewhere a fatal flaw in Washer’s theology, he now charitably overlooks those problematic issues for the greater good of preserving the integrity of Washers’ very necessary message to the body of Christ? He has been very fair in his assessment of Washers’ words.

I am one who will argue for grace alone through faith alone, and I will get my Irish up about it as well. (And the Italian part!) Yet I agree with Washer that if we are not showing fruits of repentance, perhaps we should seriously question if our faith is genuine.

Your tirades against Lordship Salvation are not appropriate for this servant of the gospel. Repeatedly, brothers and sisters are saying that you are taking words out of context, and distorting Washer’s stance. Worse, you are introducing a distracting issue that dilutes the impact of Washer’s words. John Stott has said that we are at the wrong end of the judging equation when we put the worst construction on other’s motives. I believe you are being vastly unfair to Paul Washer. It is not charitable, the way you are speaking and writing about that humble man, and I am praying you will love your issue of Lordship Salvation a little less, and the cause of the gospel of Christ, and the unity of the body a little more. Please be more like Paul, who said “I determine d to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”

Comment by Karen Butler | May 19, 2009
Karen,

Yes, I hope Francois has figured out that he’s apparently confused me with Grant. Francois and I have agreed on at least one other post.

And, you’re welcome on my posting of the youtube link to the video of this thread. I will do my best to remember you in my prayers in reference to the wording of your email to your former pastor.

Comment by Craig | May 19, 2009
This site has been wonderful in many respects: it is informative, it does give exposure, and best of all Scripture is discussed. Yes! We’ve moved from discussing a video to the end times. Very good.

But I’m going to back-pedal to the Washer video debate. As we know, the Holy Spirit came to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. Do we know that He always follows that pattern or, indeed, that He has a pattern? Personally, as an agnostic (i.e, a cowardly atheist), I felt compelled to get on my knees in my living room and pray, “I know I’m a sinner and, God, if you’re really there, I want to know you.” From that feeble and Biblically ignorant beginning, the Lord has graced my life with His presence through many deep trials and temptations. For me, an acknowledgment of sin came first. There are millions of testimonies in the world and we might be quite surprised at some.

So who is saved? Only Calvinists? Only Arminians? Those in between? Those outside the boxes? Us four and no more? Isn’t there the scarlet thread, that river of blood that separates? We either believe in the sin atonement of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ or we don’t. I find it very effective to turn any Scriptural debate to the cross. It is soon evident if I am speaking to a brother or sister.

In that vein, hopefully we will be more careful in the use of heretic and apostate. Heretic is most generally used to describe those who deliberately deny revealed truth coupled with the acceptace of error, e.g. Christianity vs. Arianism. Used in a more general sense it refers to a sect or party holding certain opinions, which makes heretics of us all.

Apostates, of course, in the New Testament are those “falling away.” We need be very careful before calling a brother “apostate” on the basis of doctrinal differences. God knows, we have true apostates in our day who have no doctrinal stand and will not witness of Christ as the way, the truth and the life yet have “Christian” ministries.

Grant, even though I do not agree entirely with your stand on salvation preaching and teaching, I do love your evangelistic heart.

Comment by Loretta Steele | May 19, 2009
ray
Your mountainretreat.org link. This author says “It is very clear both contextually and textually that there is no room for a 1000 year reign of Christ “on earth” after the tribulation.” But Revelation directly contradicts him. A system of interpretation that denies a plain statement of scripture, one repeated six times in a single passage, has got to be wrong. The reason it is wrong is that he does not keep separate things separate. Israel IS separate from the church and has a distinct and different destiny up until the new heavens and new earth. Premillenarianism + pre-tribulation removal of the church makes the best sense of all eschatological scriptures taken together. Nevertheless there are parts that are unclear and certainly there is no reason to divide over it.

Miriam has expressed the concern that pre-trib rapture has the church escaping the persecution of men and that this idea of being feather-bedded is wrong. I think this has no weight seeing that the church is experiencing bitter persecution all across the world at this moment. That we do not experience it now in the West is mainly because most of the church in the West is so miserably faithless and ineffective. It is better for Satan to leave it alone than to persecute it! Even so, there are plenty of indications that expressing Christian beliefs will soon be made criminal in at least some countries.

The time of the great tribulation is the wrath of God against unbelievers, from which his then believers will be delivered. (Why an event with such obvious effects would be called a “secret” rapture by its opponents is a mystery to me.) Nevertheless, after that many will be converted and terribly persecuted by the antichrist.

Finally, amillennialism was a necessary development in the church after it had become a state church. With the church now compromised and worldly, a doctrine that the worldly realm would be judged and destroyed by God became an embarrassment. But non-literal interpretation came to the rescue.

Comment by Oliver | May 19, 2009
ray
Concerning Israel, you say, “To think the nation of Isreal as we see it today have a special dispensation from God, while born again believers through grace are somewhat a sub standard people is in no way supported by scripture.” “Sub-standard” is your spin on it. In the same way feminists think that insisting on the separate roles God has given men and women makes women inferior. It is simply different.

It is plainly prophesied (Ezekiel) that Israel will come back to its land in unbelief. Zechariah shows that two thirds of Israel will then be killed before they finally repent — a worse judgement than the Holocaust. If that is receiving special treatment from God, I’m glad I’m in the church instead!

In all cases, an individual is saved only through faith in Jesus by the grace of God. But the separate groups in which individuals are found have separate destinies.The church is the bride of Christ, and it is the group that in the time between Pentecost and the tribulation contains all believers, Jew or Gentile. It does not, however, contain the OT saints nor those who will come to faith after the church is removed.

Comment by Oliver | May 19, 2009
I am indeed refreshed hearing the gospel the way it is. Not a diluted, ‘excuse-of-a-message’ that i have often come to hear from so called established ministers. Mr. Washer God bless you. Continue speaking the truth… as far as the delivery… i understand the anger that seems to be poured out.. it is essential and will come out from a man who truly sees the church degrading and co-operating consciously/unconsciously with the deceiver! Remember the spirit behind the sentence of Jesus “you white washed tombs”… what was that all about? CAll a spade a Spade, Black is black, sin is sin… We inherit salvation when we believe in Jesus, we remain when His words abide in us.. but we will loose it if we follow lucifer and his ways
May God open our eyes to the unseen. Amen!

Comment by Joseph Joy | May 19, 2009
I believe in indignition, holy indignition, and the attitude of Paul Washer was upset, he did not rage, he did not speak with carnal anger. And Mr. Grant, your post is so long, and so wrong , because you are upset with the truth that Paul Washer is preaching. I have to disappoint you that faith alone in the forgiveness of sins is enough to enter the kingdom of heaven. First of all: The master and Lord says, to you to me, to all who will hear it: “Repent and believe the gospel” In Mark 1: 15.
So can we even start to talk when you did not hear this Word? Further Jesus said to struggle to enter, enter the narrow gate, : This is action, then it it written: Everybody who has accepted Him as Lord ( This means who repented, and will obey Him) he has given the power to become a child of God. It is written : those who belong to Him have crucified theur flesh and the lusts there-off.

So to repent , and turn to Him, means to act and obey, and this means: To struggle to enter, to crucify your own flesh ( not that of others) , and all this is action, but the first action is to respond to what we heard, and what we believed. I turned towards God, repented and believe the gospel, Paul Washer turned towards God ,repented , and beleives the gospel, and he is even a preacher, and teaches people to obey what Jesus commanded in the scriptures.
We are not deleived from all our sins, but we are called to mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit, to examine ourselves daily, and repent of any sins we encounter
in ourselves. I believe Paul Washer does that also. Check yourselve brother of you have truly entered, if you really listen to Jesus Christ and keep what he preached.
Blessings

Comment by Eric | May 19, 2009
To add to my belief about the subject of repentance
read what Spurgeon said about it
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/repent.htm

Our churches have unrepenting christians, or they have not truly repented in the first place when they believed, or they are not repenting of sins that were not repented of before or entered later. May we be counted as the ones who truly repented, and walk every day behind the lord Jesus, denying ourselves, and carrying our cross

Comment by Eric | May 19, 2009
Yes Karen I got it wrong. Apologies Craig.

Comment by Francois | May 19, 2009
Onesimus
And if one studies Revelation it clearly tells us that there is a 1000 year period in which Satan has ben removed and Jesus reigns on the earth with His saints.
————–
Having studied Rev 20 quite extensively i just want to make a couple of points regarding your previous comment.
In verse 2 it says that Satan was bound for a thousand years, not removed.
In verse 4 it says ” also i saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God….and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years”
Are you in any way able to explain how ” souls” are able to reign on earth.Over whom will the rest of us be reigning?.Will we be immortal or mortal?What about those we will reign over , are they unregenerates, will they be immortal or mortal. What i am getting at is that premillenialism throws up an awful lot more questions than answers.Amillenialism on the other hand does not require the wresting and torturing of scripture to justify its merits.
In verse 1 of Rev 20 John writes” then i saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain”.No one would accept that John is talking of a literal key and chain, these are symbolic. Satan is a spirit and the key and chain are symbolic of power and authority. Honestly ask yourself who alone has the power and authority to bind satan.This was accomplised on the cross by the death of Christ.The vision that John has in this passage is that of Christ binding satan and the begining of His 1000 year reign, THE 1000 years being symbolic of a time of completion.The fact that Jesus defeated satan { sin and death} means that we do indeed reign with Him [ The Prince of light has conquored the prince of darkness}and this 1000 year period will end with satans loosing for a short time to once again deceive the nations, which i believe is happening right before our eyes.Those who subscribe to the premillenial doctrine are falling into the same pit the jews fell into , that is looking for a messiah to establish an earthly kingdom, but what did Jesus say in Joh 18: 36 ” my kingdom is not of this world”. Thats it in a nutshell, Christs kingdom is a spiritual one , and when the last trumpet sounds its game over, full time , we will be forever with the Lord.

Comment by ray | May 19, 2009
Can people please move the Millenium discussion here? -

http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/lets-talk-about-the-millenium/

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 19, 2009
ps People can copy their comments across there so we can have the same starting point.

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 19, 2009
Oliver
I think we have to agree to disagree on this argument of Christs return.Christ will return in the way that God has ordained and we could both be wrong! Being found righteous before God is the main issue here.
To all of you who have posted comments regarding Paul Washers message and his style of delivery , i have this to say, you may have been offended by his message etc , but this is an opportunity for you to do some soul searching and make sure your heart is right before God OTHERWISE you will be offended when God says to you ” i never knew you” the choice is yours.

Comment by ray | May 19, 2009
Grant may I refer to an earlier post by Sally, who pretty much eloquently summed up what would have been my response to your views. There are others such as Eric (Calvinist issues aside) whose views I also concur with. So I am sorry for not repeating scriptures due to time constraints and basically laziness on my part, although these have been carefully and diligently presented by the aforementioned posts.

Essentially the fruits in ones life is evidence of salvation. It is irrelevant concerning ones posturing concerning ‘trusting in Christ alone’ if you are living in sin you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. I am concerned Grant that you may believe in the heresy of ‘once saved always saved’ and forgive me for saying that your theology is mixed up not Mr Washer’s. Mr washer is a voice in the wilderness, his passion for the truth, his boldness and clarity (and yes I have seen the youth message along with his others) are needed today in the Church. He does not compromise and he does not hold to your definition of ‘Lordship salvation’ and it is obvious unlike other popular teachers he is not looking to assemble listeners with itching ears. I praise God for him. If Paul Washer is angry, God is furious.

Comment by Paul | May 19, 2009
Apologies Craig.

Apology accepted. I knew it was just a case of mistaken identity.

Comment by Craig | May 19, 2009
Grant,

I meant to take a break from posting comments, but your comments grabbed my attention and I have been so burdened to pray for you. The Lord has made me aware that your comments were not made to stir up controversy, but that a world of hurt was behind them, a struggle in the life of faith.

I was impressed to remind you that the works of God are these: “to believe on Him you have sent”.

I felt impressed to remind you that repentance is such a simple thing, even a child can understand it. Isn’t it just to “turn around”? Isn’t it to begin the lifelong walk with God, agreeing with Him that His ways may not be our ways but they are good, and forsaking our own? A life of repentance doesn’t mean perfection, but indeed, a righteous life means that we are shining brighter and brighter till the full day. I used to hate the bumper sticker, “A Christian isn’t Perfect, Just Forgiven.” My pride-filled younger self in the Lord used to think that was such a cop-out, but now I am older and wiser, and sheepishly agree with its sentiments (I am so much more aware of my sin! and so much more thankful for His forgiveness). And my longing for His righteousness, and His alone, is stronger than it ever was.

I urged you yesterday to meditate on the words of God alone rather than those of theologians, but today I am going to make an exception for a great devotional writer and quote him at length. I can’t top A.W..Tozer for beautifully penned meditations on the life of faith, a substance so crucial for without it is impossible to please God. Yet what is it? Tozer called the life of faith “the inward gaze of the soul” and he just makes it so simple:

“Faith is the least self-regarding of the virtues. It is by its very nature scarcely conscious of its own existence. Like the eye which sees everything in front of it and never sees itself, faith is occupied with the Object upon which it rests and pays no attention to itself at all. While we are looking at God we do not see ourselves–blessed riddance. The man who has struggled to purify himself and has had nothing but repeated failures will experience real relief when he stops tinkering with his soul and looks away to the perfect One. While he looks at Christ the very things he has so long been trying to do will be getting done within him. It will be God working in him to will and to do.
Faith is not in itself a meritorious act; the merit is in the One toward Whom it is directed. Faith is a redirecting of our sight, a getting out of the focus of our own vision and getting God into focus. Sin has twisted our vision inward and made it self-regarding. Unbelief has put self where God should be, and is perilously close to the sin of Lucifer who said, `I will set my throne above the throne of God.’ Faith looks out instead of in and the whole life falls into line.
All this may seem too simple. But we have no apology to make. To those who would seek to climb into heaven after help or descend into hell God says, `The word is nigh thee, even in the word of faith.’ The word induces us to lift up our eyes unto the Lord and the blessed work of faith begins.
When we lift our inward eyes to gaze upon God we are sure to meet friendly eyes gazing back at us, for it is written that the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout all the earth. The sweet language of experience is `Thou God seest me.’ When the eyes of the soul looking out meet the eyes of God looking in, heaven has begun right here on this earth.”
This is from the online book, “The Pursuit of God.” To read more, click here: http://www.theboc.com/freestuff/awtozer/books/the_pursuit_of_god/the_gaze_of_the_soul.html

I feel impressed to recommend to you this thread where I tell my story, and give further resources for people struggling in their lives of faith:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/personal-struggles-about-the-charismatic-world-testimonies/

My browser will not number the posts, but on May 8 I share some of my life history and struggle, and on May 11, I make known resources with a poster named anonymous7 that I recommend to you: Our prayer request thread, our thread for people seeking to shake off the lies and deception picked up from charismania or simply the mania that comes from living in a fallen world. I am going to shortly update that thread by posting my toolbox of resources that God used to bring me out of my pit-—but always the most important is to continually flee to Him, and to abide in His word:

I love the LORD, for he heard my voice;
he heard my cry for mercy,
Because he turned his ear to me,
I will call on him as long as I live.
The cords of death entangled me,
the anguish of the grave came upon me;
I was overcome by trouble and sorrow.
Then I called on the name of the LORD:
“O LORD save me!
”The LORD is gracious and righteous;
our GOD is full of compassion
The LORD protects the simplehearted;
when I was in great need, he saved me.
Be at rest once more O my soul
for the LORD has been good to you.
For you O LORD, have delivered my soul from death,
my eyes from tears,
my feet from stumbling,
that I may walk before the LORD
in the land of the living.
I believed, therefore I said
“I am greatly afflicted”
And in my dismay I said,
“All men are liars.”
“How can I repay the LORD
for all his goodness to me?
I will lift up the cup of salvation
and call on the name of the LORD>
I will fullfill my vows to the LORD
in the presence of all his people. (Psalm 116 1-14)

If I am wrong about these things, please forgive me, but I am seeking to grow in faith and obedience to the LOrd, and I have had no rest until I wrote these things to you. I hope you find them helpful. It has been my joy to share them with you.

Comment by Karen Butler | May 20, 2009
Karen Butler said:
I identify with your dilemma. I have benefited so much from Onesimus’ wise advice, given when I hotly debated him on the Mark Driscoll thread, to drop my predilection for quoting my favorite theologians and base my argument on the word of God alone.

———–

Karen I was so pleased to read this.
I know I haven’t always expressed things in the best way and I definitely haven’t always expressed myself in the best manner; but despite any differences we may have in doctrine at least we have a common starting point if we make scripture our foundation rather than the teachings of man.
Yes men’s teaching can be helpful, but we ALWAYS need to be mindful of the need to take those teachings to the scriptures and DILIGENTLY judge them according to scripture.
It is far too common for people to take a man’s teaching and then interpret scripture according to that teaching rather than vice versa.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
Karen,
Further to what I said above.
I think it is often easy to see that many of the contentious disagreements that rage on a variety of topics, are fueled by constant references to the writings of this person or that person.

We can pay far too much attention to the writings and “wisdom” of man in perpetuating these “discussions”.

While I am not aware of your beliefs regarding the millennium (now a separate topic)- it is CLEAR that far too much importance has been placed on what others have said and how others have interpreted this issue – instead of sticking with what the scriptures say and how the scriptures say it.

If we stick WITH the scriptures – even if that means we can’t readily understand everything that the scriptures say on a particular issue – then we are less likely to go wrong or be led astray.

Yes the teaching of others can help – but that teaching must ALWAYS be diligently held up to scripture. In doing that we need to be very aware of the possibility of being swayed by the wisdom and reasoning of man instead of by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
Some teachings can be very seductive.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
Another comment from online about lordship salvation

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL
EFFECTS OF
LORDSHIP SALVATION
FRANK B. MINIRTH *

I. Introduction

The relationship between faith and works has been an issue of debate for many years. It centers around the nature of saving faith: Does it entail a response of the human will to the lordship of Christ?

Evangelicals maintain that justification is by grace through faith alone and that works are best understood as the fruit of faith. This faith is the one biblical foundation for assurance of salvation. When one becomes a Christian, he consciously believes in Christ. He does not need, nor is he required, to will a commitment to obedience, though he may do so.

Lordship Salvation advocates have extended saving faith to include a commitment to the lordship of Christ which entails obedience. This makes assurance conditional and the best anyone can hope for is to have enough good works to be somewhat confident of salvation. They believe that faith is necessary for assurance of salvation, but not sufficient. They also believe that confession, baptism, restitution, commitment, good works, surrender to Christ’s lordship, or some other requirement is necessary for salvation.

II. The Clarity of the Gospel Message

Salvation is God’s free grace-gift to each believer: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9).[1] Jesus already has paid for it in full. The only requirement for receiving forgiveness and eternal life is to believe in Christ. This is clearly based on Scripture, not on personal experience.

In about 115 NT passages, the salvation of a sinner is declared to depend only upon believing, and in about 35 passages to depend on faith, which is a synonym for believing.[2]

Any addition to believing is anathema to God. The divine message is not “believe and pray,” “believe and confess sin,” “believe and be baptized,” “believe and repent,” or “believe and make restitution.” These added requirements have appropriate meanings in the Scriptures, but if they were essential to salvation they would never be omitted from any passage where the way to be saved is stated. (E.g., see Gal 3:22; John 1:12; 3:15-16, 18, 36; 5:24; 6:40, 47; Acts 16:31; Rom 1:16; 3:22-23; 4:24-25; 6:23).

Salvation is unconditional, meaning it cannot be earned by merit or denied because of demerit. And the moment one believes, this gift includes redemption, reconciliation, forgiveness, regeneration, justification, perfection, and glorification. This work of God is so perfect that it lasts forever (John 5:24; 10:28-29; Rom 8:1).

Christ offered assurance of this when He said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). Later He said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” (John 10:27-28).[3]

Where there is a lack of assurance there is usually an impression that so long as one’s daily life is imperfect, it is unreasonable to do any more than hope for God’s mercy. No conviction of assurance can grow where the mind is still wondering whether it has really believed in a saving way.

God saves us in spite of our unworthiness and sins and keeps us saved for all eternity, because of the Cross. His divine provision calls for no payments to be made on the “installment plan.” Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22).

III. Grace Versus Works and Law

Under grace, the children of God are delivered from the burden of a covenant of works. They are free to live in the power of the indwelling Spirit, and are accepted in Christ (Eph 1:6). This is in contrast to works (Rom 11:6). Theologically, the word works refers to acts of obedience, take willpower and labor (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

Gracee is also in contrast to law (Gal 5:4; John 1:17). A law implies a regulation that should be kept. I have heard Christian workers say, “I tell someone about the Christian life before he becomes Christian, so he will know what to expect.” Their aim is to obtain from the person a resolution to live the Christian life. The law formula is, “If You will do good, I will bless you.”[4] Conduct secures favor with God instead of securing favor with God through Christ.

Note the following contrasts:

GRACE

Versus LAW[5]

—Salvation is a gift (Eph 2:8-9; John 10:28; Rom 6:23) —Salvation requires a payment by the individual
—Demerit cannot result in salvation’s being denied (Rom 5:8) —Demerit can result in denial of salvation
—Personal merit cannot result in salvation (Gal 5:6; 3:22) —Personal merit can result in salvation
—Grace-plus-nothing (Gal 4:9) —Grace plus merit
—Starts with what Christ has done (Heb 7:16) —Starts with what the individual must do
—Only believe (in Gospels over 115 times) —Believe plus…
—Receive, and then do… —Do to receive
—Contrasted to debt (Rom 4:4, (Rom 11:6), law (Gal 5:14) —Consistent with debt, works, and law

One of my psychiatric patients had been exposed to the grace-plus system, and combined with her own obsessive-compulsive personality, she succumbed to disabling guilt, frustration, and disillusionment.

She stated, “I’m going to hell. I just know it. I haven’t done enough right.”

I asked her to picture Christ on the Cross, to picture each of her sins driving a spike into His hand, and finally to visualize carrying all of her guilt up to the Cross and giving it to Christ. She had an anguished demeanor.

I shared John 6:37 and Eph 2:8-9, and explained that what we do and don’t do in the Christian life is not based on a “brownie-point” system, but on faith in Christ as our Savior. Soon a serene, peaceful look came over her face. I had introduced her to grace.

IV. Fallacies of Lordship Theology

The significant fallacies of Lordship Salvation include the following:

1. People are being asked to earn God’s love and acceptance by resolutions leading to consistent good works. People cannot accomplish this; nor is it necessary. No believer glorifies God in all that he or she does all of the time (1 Cor 3:11-15).

Salvation is a work of God for man, rather than a work of man for God.[6] Good works grow out of a saved life, but do not precede salvation or form any basis for it![7]

2. People are often asked to make Christ the Lord of their life. This implies that acknowledging Christ’s lordship is a human work. But it is not man who makes Christ Lord; that’s who He already is.[8] He is our Lord, Creator, Savior, and Friend.

By believing in Him, He already lives in us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, whose purpose it is to glorify Christ (2 Cor 5:17; John 15:5). As children of God, believers can enjoy a day-to-day witness of the Holy Spirit and an experience of inward transformation. Our own human resources and merits are in no way related to this experience of divine grace.

3. Requiring a daily commitment to make Christ the Lord of one’s life is asking unregenerate people to make a promise they can in no way keep.[9] This law, as well as those who try to keep it, are doomed to fail because they depend on the very flesh from which deliverance is sought (Rom 6:14)! We cannot live to the glory of God by following certain rules on a consistent basis. The will of God is fulfilled in the believer, not by the believer (Rom 8:4).

No life would ever be good enough to merit anything but condemnation from God if judged on the grounds of moral equity. On the other hand, no sinner has fallen so low, or is so weak, that he cannot find absolute rest and assurance of personal salvation by believing in Christ)[10]

“Leading a Christian life,” therefore, has no saving value; self-improvement is not the purpose for believing in Christ. Even trying to live a perfect life would produce hopeless discouragement.

Realizing our standing in Christ, however, should not lead to laxity in our daily lives; this wonderful position is the strongest possible incentive to pure living that we can know. John 6:28-29 says, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he hath sent.”

4. All people have something in their life that does not allow them to reach perfection. They wonder, “How much submission to Christ’s lordship will it take to be assured of salvation? How much is enough?” All of us have failed Him many, many times. We sinned before we became Christians and have continued sinning ever since. God tells us, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

Some people fear that they do not believe enough. A man who came to Jesus once said, “Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief!” (Mark 9:24). Jesus’ response demonstrates that it is not the amount of faith but the Object of faith that matters. The most feeble belief in Christ saves; and the strongest faith in self leaves one lacking. (It is Christ who saves us—belief is the tool we use to receive salvation.)

Others fear they are not committed enough. No one has ever been totally committed to anything, nor has anyone totally committed every area of his life to Christ. (Titus 3:5 reminds us that salvation is apart from any righteous deeds we do.)

What about repenting enough? God never intended for repentance to be a separate work apart from His simple plan of salvation. It occurs simultaneously with belief as one turns away from self to Christ for salvation. Repentance[11] literally means a change of thought or attitude with respect to sin, self, and Christ. The believer realizes he is a hopeless sinner and that Christ can save him.

Many people may also fear they are not praying enough. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind” (2Tim 1:7; see also Rom 8:26-27). Prayer is only possible through a relationship with God through Christ; this relationship is established by placing faith in Christ. Prayer consists of praise, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication, but it is not a requirement for salvation. The key term in Scripture is to trust Christ, not to pray.

It is the divine purpose that a Christian’s conduct should be inspired by the fact that be or she is already saved and blessed with all the riches of grace in Christ Jesus, rather than by the hope that an attempted imitation of the Christian standard of conduct will result in salvation.[12]

God will reward faithful service, but does not demand it. Our service is an expression of love for Him.

V.A “Double-Bind” Message

Untold psychological damage is done when an individual feels he is accepted on a conditional basis. This may be expressed in a contradictory message, such as “I love you, but you must…” It produces a paradox that makes choice impossible.

It is a “double-bind” message to combine grace with merit. This message asks a person to do two conflicting things. By definition, grace is God’s unmerited favor, a free gift (eternal life—Rom 6:23). This means that one cannot earn grace because this, would contradict the definition. Thus, when a minister or priest asks someone to do something for the grace of God, he has just presented the individual with an impossible choice. If the individual chooses grace, he cannot do anything for it. Yet, the minister has told him that he must do something. The person cannot win!

To see the Apostle Paul’s words about this “double-bind” message read Rom 4:1-25.

VI. Why People Impose or Choose Lordship

These demands are not only a denial of the doctrine of grace but are unwarranted, because God has provided no enabling power for unregenerate people to lead a perfect life. I have never met a person who has been totally successful in making Christ the Lord of his or her life. If salvation depended on consistent, personal goodness, there could not be a single saved person in the world, and therefore no grounds for assurance.[13] So why would a person impose lordship on himself or someone else?

1. Some people (even with sincerity) misinterpret Scripture, taking verses out of context or missing the overall theme of grace. For example, undue emphasis on public acts such as baptism, confession, prayer, a good life, dedication, vows, and submission to Christ’s lordship can make salvation a matter of faith in Christ plus a meritorious public act. These functions can get out of balance or confused in their purpose and value.

For example, Scripture instructs us to be baptized as a testimony to, or outward expression of, an inward reality (Acts 19:5; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; and Col 2:12). However, it is not specified in the more than two hundred passages of Scripture that clearly list faith as the condition for salvation.

Confession, too, is clearly the believer’s privilege. It does not provide a basis for salvation, but rather displays its reality. Unfortunately, it is difficult to encourage confession in connection with conversion without making it seem to be meritorious.[14]

2. It is a psychological fact that the human mind is aided by some physical action which serves to strengthen an impression. But such acts, if urged at all, should not be presented as a condition of salvation. When there are required actions, there is a natural, corresponding increase in “backsliding.”

3. There is pride in thinking one is in control. Man’s proud spirit will not accept the fact that he can do nothing to merit God’s approval (Isa 64~6-7). People apparently often choose lordship thinking for their own glorification and recognition (Gal 6:12-13).

4. Another reason for its appeal may be that it focuses on an external set of rules and practices, thereby making it possible for a person to suppress his internal feelings of weakness, worthlessness, and/or failure. It gives a visible standard by which he can be judged and compared to others to build his own self-worth.[15]

5. Because of backgrounds and religious training, many Christians become comfortable believing that their performance is a factor in their salvation. This wrong perspective, which involves self-reliance and conditional acceptance, is a precipitating cause for depression. Paul recorded his discouragement in trying to live for God in his own energy in Rom 7:14-24.

VII. The Negative Impact of Lordship Theology

Lordship theology can have a very negative psychological impact on people’s lives. Because of this denial of grace, Christians have been occupied with futile attempts at self-keeping to the neglect of true service for God.[16]

Many of the more anxious and depressed patients I have treated are believers who have not yet learned how to personally appropriate God’s thought patterns and behavioral principles into their lives. Many have developed negative, self-critical, judgmental beliefs that have resulted in guilt and insecurity.

Promises for future conduct can set people up for many failures, and the guilt can be overwhelming. Guilt is produced partly by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and partly by one’s own conscience.

A Christian’s conscience is molded by what parents, teachers, church, and the Bible say is right and wrong, but even those ideas are influenced by individual interpretation. No two consciences are exactly alike.

God does not want us to live with guilt. It is Christ’s desire to forgive us and to free us. As we accept His forgiveness, we are free to enjoy the blessing of John 10:10, “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” Christ wants us to experience the fruit of the Spirit—”love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance” (Gal 5:22-23).

There are a number of common mental defenses that can keep Christians from living a joyful, fruitful life through the power of the Holy Spirit. These are: denial, projection, intellectualization, rationalization, repression, compensation, suppression, introjection, passive-aggressive behavior, somatization, idealization, control, substitution, and displacement. These can lead to various consequences.

Depression. Unfortunately, depression often goes unrecognized, undiagnosed, and untreated. All people, including Christians, at times feel sad or blue; this is a normal human emotion. But it becomes an illness when symptoms persist and the ability to function is impaired. Trying to earn God’s acceptance by being perfectly obedient is a no-win, depressing commitment.

Pride is the downfall of many people. Christians can be proud of the many acts of goodness they perform, but they are never perfect and pure. Also, many confuse the sin of pride with the godly attribute of loving themselves in a healthy way. However, pride and self-worth are really opposites. Some “better than thou” attitudes are cover-ups for feelings of inadequacy.

Anger is also a common effect. It can start with bitterness and turn into depression. The most psychologically damaging aspect is anger turned inward; and anger against God is spiritually damaging.

Personality disorders can also result from “double-bind” messages and conditional love.

Of all personality types the obsessive-compulsives are the most susceptible to lordship theology. Lordship doctrine drives them to seek perfection (which is impossible in this life), driving them down the road to bondage. These individuals are overconscientious, overdutiful, and perfectionistic, always striving for 99%. Lordship teaching drives them to strive for 99.9%, making them even more obsessive and scrupulous regarding their values (far beyond the demands of faith and culture). Because they expect too much out of themselves, they frequently become angry with themselves, which results in depression.

Studies have shown that the majority of religious leaders lean toward compulsive personality traits. They have tendencies to become legalistic and absorbed in disputes over right and wrong. Their conscience is stricter than God’s guidelines in the Bible. They fail to distinguish between true and false guilt. They may struggle with a fear of having committed the unpardonable sin or they may fear that they haven’t really trusted Christ as their Savior. They need to be reminded of the grace and mercy of God

Perfectionistic Christians may feel overwhelmed with anger toward God (for supposedly expecting so much of them) and toward themselves (for not being perfect). They may become depressed because they forget that we are called to rest in Christ rather than to be caught up in a never-ending round of activity.

Paranoid personalities are also susceptible. These individuals are overly suspicious, hypersensitive, and distrustful. Since control is a major issue with them (their insecurities drive them to try to dominate others), they sometimes believe they are subject to all kinds of tests. Psalm 31 can offer them great comfort.

Christians with passive-aggressive personalities are likely to be halfhearted believers who irresponsibly “wait on the Lord” while criticizing others as being “less spiritual.” They may brag about being great “prayer warriors” or depend on others for support.

Those with histrionic traits tend to emphasize emotional experiences rather than God’s Word. They typically have spiritual ups and downs, and may become religiously grandiose and claim special powers and gifts.

In the worst cases, Christians can become neurotic or even psychotic if they feel that receiving or keeping salvation is conditional. Psychiatric diagnoses could include:

Psychoses—schizophrenia, brief reactive psychosis, atypical psychosis, schizoaffective disorder, etc.

Neuroses—anxiety neurosis, phobias, obsessive-compulsive neurosis, somatoform disorder, psychogenic-pain disorder, etc.

Personality disorders—paranoia, obsessive-compulsions, socio— pathology, narcissism, avoidance, cyclothymia, dysthymia, etc.

Substance abuse—alcohol, tobacco, drugs, etc.

Affective disorders—manic-depression, major depression

Adjustment disorders—secondary depression or anxiety related to current-day stresses

Others—conduct disorders, anxiety disorders, identity disorders, eating disorders, moral or religious scrupulosity, etc.

VIII. Far-Reaching Emotional Problems

Understanding why Christians have problems with their feelings, thoughts, and behavior requires dealing with all aspects of man— spiritual, psychological, and physical, and realizing that they all affect one another. A good example of the interrelations between these parts of man and the related emotional stress was described by Paul in Rom 7:18-25 and 8:1-2.

If Christians have a new life and power within them at the time of conversion, why then do they continue to have mental and emotional problems? Some may think they won’t continue to have these problems if they just live their lives as God wants them to and by avoiding doing the things that cause then painful guilt, anxiety, and stress.

But it doesn’t work that way. One reason is that the mind is a part of the soul, not a part of the spirit. The soul does not become new or have any change at the time of conversion; the spirit does.

If Christian counselors are to be effective, they must not only help their clients find balanced psychological health and freedom, but also help them realize that only the Lord Jesus can give and maintain real freedom and peace of mind.

Counselors minister to those who are estranged from God and to those who are hindered in their walk with the Lord as a result of wounds to their spirit, soul, or body. They give individualized spiritual and clinical attention to the specific needs of their clients, using four foundational, biblical emphases: love (1 Cor 13:13; 1 Thess 2:10-11); behavior (Gen 4:7); awareness (Ps 139:23-24); and God’s power within (Zech 4:6b).

Just as Christ dealt with people in different ways, Christian counselors apply many scriptural approaches in their therapy, including:

Advice (Prov 19:20)
Support (Rom 1:11-12)
Encouragement (urge, admonish, help) (1 Thess 2:11; 5:14)
Comfort (2 Cor 1:4)
Education (the NT Epistles)
Corrective emotional experience (being a Christian example)
Support system (the Body of Christ)
Insight (parables of Christ)
Confession (Jas 5:16)
Positive verbal reinforcement (Rom 1:8)
Modeling (Christ with the disciples)
Cognitive approach (Gal 4:9)
Group work (“one another” passages)
Confrontation (1 Thess 5:14; 2 Thess 3:15)
Directness (Prov 27:5-6)
Indirectness (2 Sam 12:1-7)
Listening (Eccl 3:1, 7)
A matter-of-fact manner (Mark 10:14)
Gentleness (Mark 10:16)
Patience (Matt 18:29; Jas 5:7; Heb 6:15)
Much counsel is directed at the soul of man. However, the spirit is the innermost part of a person and is the most important part in a Christian’s search for peace. Grace can provide this peace.

IX. A Foundation of Psychiatry

The unconditional grace of God is the foundation for His relationship with man, and is also the foundation of Christian psychiatry and of my practice.

I believe we must put more emphasis on grace. It’s a concept which easily escapes many people because it is so foreign to society’s framework and our individual lifestyles. Throughout the centuries, because of our psychological makeup, it has been easier for people to gravitate to the concept of law.[17]

Martin Luther, after years of striving in vain to be righteous, and after years of psychological pain, discovered the marvelous meaning of grace, thereby finding a solution for the basic guilt common to man. This was the beginning of the great Protestant Reformation.[18]

How the Church views grace has widespread implications. A misconception in one direction can result in depression, while a misconception in another direction can result in a license to sin. These misconceptions not only have widespread spiritual implications, but can also do great psychological harm.

The trend of challenging the unconditional love of Christ, which is God’s system of grace, is still alive in the grace-plus-merit system. I hear Christian workers encouraging others to give their lives to Christ. But He does not want one to give—simply to receive. God has already condemned the old sin nature, and made atonement on the Cross.

Lordship theology can cause endless frustration. It can keep Christians from enjoying Christ’s deep comfort and His resources for solving problems (John 15:4-7; 1 Pet 5:7).

The power to live the Christian life is given by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit that comes when one believes in Christ. Without this power, all actions are based on willpower (human) which God condemns (John 1:13).

X. Conclusion: Psychological Benefits of a Biblical Perspective

The theme of the whole Bible is grace, and I urge all believers to “stand in grace” for their mental and spiritual health. Knowing that we are unconditionally loved and assured in our salvation, we can be delivered from the rat-race so many Christians are running today (Eccl 1:14; 4:4; Ps 39:4-5).

The Lord Jesus said: “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32). It is wise men and women, indeed, who seek the truth about grace. And it is these believers who can live by grace (Rom 6:14) so that all the glory will go to God. God has done so much for us and desires to do much more through us!

“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen” (Rom 16:24).

——————————————————————————–

* Dr. Minirth is a Diplomat of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology, President of the Minirth-Meier Clinics, Richardson, Texas, Associate Professor of Pastoral Ministries, Dallas Theological Seminary, author or co-author of 37 books, and a co-host on radio and television.

[1] All biblical quotations in this article are taken from the Holy Bible, King James Version.

[2] Lewis Sperry Chafer, Major Bible Themes (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1953, by Dallas Theological Seminary), 157.

[3] Frank Minirth, M.D., et al., The Workaholic and His Family (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1981), 87.

[4] Chafer, Major Bible Themes, 149.

[5] Frank Minirth, M.D., Christian Psychiatry (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Company, 1977), 51.

[6] Lewis Sperry Chafer, Salvation (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1973), 43.

[7] Ibid., 79.

[8] Sophisticated Lordship theologians often admit this. But on a popular level, “make Christ Lord of your life” is often what is actually said. Ed

[9] Those Lordship Salvation teachers who are also “five-point” Calvinists (and there are many of them) often teach that regeneration precedes both faith and any surrender to Christ’s lordship which (in their view) true faith requires. But, again, the author addresses the issue in the way it is usually understood at the popular level. Ed.

[10] Chafer, Salvation, 79.

[11] “The NT Greek word is metanoia, literally “afterthought” or “change of mind.”

[12] Chafer, Salvation, 57.

[13] lbid., 78.

[14] Lewis Sperry Chafer, True Evangelism (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1993 revised edition), 19.

[15] Minirth, The Workaholic and His Family, 130.

[16] Chafer, True Evangelism, 22.

[17] Minirth, Christian Psychiatry, 39.

[18] Ibid

Comment by grant | May 20, 2009
From another blog about a subjective response to lordship salvation by Dave at http://dave-bibletruths.blogspot.com/2008/12/lordship-salvation-road-to-misery.html

Lordship Salvation: A Road to Misery
I am amazed as to how I once believed in Lordship salvation. It was that belief that kept me in almost perpetual doubt. It was the teaching that made me critical and judgmental of all those around me that professed to have peace and assurance when they were not striving as hard as I was. It was that belief that made me want to serve God out of fear that I might prove in the end that I was a reprobate. It was this belief that made God’s love seem distant and something that had to be earned. Such a belief made obedience hard, Bible reading and prayer a chore and so on. Witnessing was anything but simple or a joy as I felt the need to make sure that my hearer didn’t misunderstand me that the gospel is not something that one can take and expect to live in sin. I made sure they knew that the love of just one sin would keep them from Christ. It was that belief that had me waking up at night feeling as though my feet were literally dangling inches away from hells fire in a pool of sweat. It was that belief that gave me sleepless nights at times. It was that belief that had me reading so many books to find answers and assurance of salvation but no Lordship author could provide since they themselves were not exactly sure and often their help would have been equivalent of offering an aspirin to a man that has bone cancer only to hope to make his pain livable.

Lordship salvation made me blind to the fact that I was a person that literally was calling the kettle black with others. I would criticize preacher’s that would invite sinners to “ask Jesus in their hearts” or have them pray the “sinners prayer” when that is not found in Scripture. I still agree with that but the problem was that I chose to ignore at the same time that my position of telling others to “make Jesus Lord of their life” to be saved was also not found in Scripture but had to read it into Acts 16:31. I did not realize that my belief against the Roman Catholic doctrine of faith and works was what I actually propagated. I did not realize that Lordship found a way to incorporate works into faith so that they now became one act instead of two. Instead of saying that we are saved by faith and works as the Catholics do, we now say that if your faith is genuine then you will have works. Or, we might have say, “We are not saved by our works but we are certainly not saved without them.” We even would tell others that salvation is “free yet costly” as such a statement should have raised my brow back then. John MacArthur had written a book called “Faith Works” and has people convinced that faith is obedience as you cannot separate the two. So instead of saying that they believe that one is saved by faith and works, we now have that if you have faith then such a faith obeys as they are two sides to the same coin. (Please see my blog ‘Lordship takes a slap in the face’ as I show that even a Roman Catholic apologist notices the similarities of Lordship to their teachings).

Lordship made me want to serve Christ to prove my love since Jesus did say that if we love Him then it would be evidenced by keeping His commandments. I failed to see the true meaning of that verse. I felt that I had to keep His commandments or it would prove that I was never saved. I didn’t see the truth as this verse isn’t teaching that if we are saved then we will keep His commandments but only if we love Him. If you have to love Him first to be saved then you are teaching a works gospel. You can’t force obedience and you cannot pretend to love. Jesus wasn’t making a threat there. Love begets love and that is what fell so short in Lordship salvation because fear can never beget love and neither does the absolute uncertainty that I just might not endure to the end. I know that if I lived back in the days of Christ that I would be that Pharisee criticizing the publican. I know that I would have hated Christ because I would have criticized Him for being a friend to sinners much like what we have today. Oh I might have faked being that Publican also by praying, “God be merciful to me a sinner” but I know that my prayer would have included, “and I thank you that I am not like that Pharisee over there” as my pride would have found a loophole in it.

I couldn’t love Christ because of what Lordship taught. I felt that God was hammering me. The god I believed in had a stern look all the time as he was so angry with sin. I felt that I couldn’t be trusted since I was a repeat offender before Him and that God was reluctant to forgive. I lived under the cloud of guilt and doubt but was told by others that such a position was actually humility and would keep me from that presumptuous faith that free grace believers have. The verse reads that “if” you love Him to keep His commandments and not to keep them to love Him. I would never be willing to say back then, “I do not love you” because that would have been blasphemy to me and a sign that I was not saved. What we fail to see is that if you love Him doesn’t guarantee that you will obey any more than a wife that loves her husband is guaranteed to submit as Paul taught. Obedience is a choice and so is love but it is hard to love someone that you feel that you have to earn theirs first.

Does disobedience really prove that one never believed the gospel? I have heard one Lordship believer say, “If I were to tell you that there is a bomb in this building then it is clear that you will be running.” I said, “Yes, logic does tell me that but logic also tells me that one would quit smoking when their doctor tells them that death is certain if they were to continue to smoke.” I have seen those with lung cancer still smoking as that is entirely illogical to me. Obedience might be logical but it isn’t a guarantee as it is a choice. Knowing that my sins are forgiven and that heaven is mine ought to affect my walk logically but it is no guarantee. So if someone doesn’t obey doesn’t mean that they do not believe the gospel just as much as a smoker who chooses to keep smoking when death is knocking doesn’t prove that he doesn’t believe his doctor. It is believers that have been commanded to walk in the Spirit to keep from the sins of the flesh. It is believers that are commanded to abide in Him. It is believers that are told to renew their minds not according to this world. This is how believers grow. Being saved doesn’t guarantee fruit bearing but following the post salvation command to walk in the Spirit and abiding in Him does. Salvation is given to us entirely apart from works.

I would have told you back in my Lordship days that salvation is only found in Christ as we cannot save ourselves. However, I did not see due to the blindness of my heart as I did not believe those words because it always came down to what I was doing in my walk. John MacArthur wrote a book called ‘Saved Without a Doubt’ that did absolutely nothing for me. He had the eleven apostolic tests to determine if you were saved and even said several times that if you pass any of those tests to rejoice because no unbeliever could ever experience that. However, John talks out of both sides of his mouth because he said elsewhere that it does not matter what you experienced in the past because if you are not experiencing them today then you might be a lost person. So basically you can rejoice today if you are passing any of the 11 tests but if they stop tomorrow then worry even though he said that no unbeliever could never experience them. This was why I was blind because I looked to my works to determine whether or not I was saved. It is interesting to note that not one of John MacArthur’s tests included whether or not you believed the right message about the gospel.

I foolishly believed that if you are saved then you wouldn’t be “sinless” but that you will “sin-less.” I do believe that a Christian ought to be sinning less but one is not required to sin less in order to be saved or prove your salvation as Lordship will make you think. You will often hear by Lordship proponents that if your life hasn’t improved from last year where you are overcoming sin in your life where you can see that you are sinning less then you need to question your salvation. I foolishly taught that to others without using simple common sense to refute that. Think about the logic here, if one is to see a pattern of sinning less each year then you have a royal problem (King Solomon being one of them). Can a 12 year old boy be saved? Yes, then how many sins does he have? Plenty but nowhere near someone that is an adult. He has only been alive for 12 years so the logic should tell you that in another 12 years he should be practically perfect if he is to sin less and less each year. How about if he lives to be 90?? How can he have assurance of salvation when he reaches puberty and starts noticing the opposite sex?? Logic should tell you that he will see himself as having more sins than he had when he was 12 and that he isn’t getting better and better each year. This thought struck me one day as I realized that such a belief is only there to keep one in a perpetual state of striving hard to prove yourself saved while the whole time you are wondering if you are saved or not based on your daily performance.

Salvation to a Lordship believer is no different than the belief I also held when I was a Wesleyan that believed that salvation could be lost. If you compare the 5th point of Arminianism to the 5th point of Calvinism then you will see that they are indistinguishable (Please see my blog ‘What does John MacArthur teach? Grace or Romanism?’ as I share quotes from various authors and you cannot tell who was a Lordship believer or a Catholic or an Arminian).

Now there are Lordship believers that will say that I am an extreme case of struggling like this but the apple really doesn’t fall far from the tree. I meet scores of Lordship people that bear the same fruit of pride, nasty speech to others, critical speech, doubt and so on that I did. I quit visiting forums because Lordship people will argue until they are blue in the face and if the argument doesn’t go according to their liking then watch out!!! I always felt that God’s holiness and justice has been over emphasized in their teachings but grace and love are excluded to a great extent. With free grace it is hard not to love a God that did everything for you that was costly to Him but entirely free to us. WE DO NOTHING BUT SIMPLY BELIEVE AND RECEIVE!!!!

Look at the following quote as this is what Lordship proponents teach:

Something more than believing in Christ is necessary to ensure the soul’s reaching heaven.” – A.W. Pink

SAY WHAT????? Where is Arthur Pink today in eternity?? I do not know but his very words makes me believe that he is not with Christ whom he claimed to have known. I fear that many will follow Pink on that same dangerous road. I rarely ever meet a Lordship believer that doesn’t have at least one book by Pink or doesn’t admire him to some degree. This religion sends chills up my spine because I do see it as another gospel that will not save anyone. I fear in the end that many Lordship believers will be crying “Lord Lord” as they shout so much today professing their good works and their strivings only to hear the Lord say, “Depart from Me, I NEVER KNEW YOU!”

Stay clear of Lordship salvation!!!!!! If you need proof that majority are anti-grace then just tell them that you are so blessed to have been saved apart from ANY works and that you have full and complete assurance of your salvation with joy unspeakable and watch them attack it. I had a Lordship friend that hated to hear that I had full assurance of salvation and felt the need to warn me of assurance that is either fleshly produced or even demonic. Stay clear of them!!

Comment by grant | May 20, 2009
re:comments by Grant-
The New Testament is FULL of Jesus’s teachings that we must “be holy as your heavenly Father is holy”…or when he cured the sick, what did he always say? “Go, and SIN no more.” and I think it was St. Paul who wrote-”Faith without works is dead.”

We are NOT garanteed salvation if we throw it back in God’s face by refusing to change our lives of sin. Your belief statements imply that we can live however we choose, not have to obey the commandments, and we will attain salvation. That is not true. Why on earth do you think we were given the Ten Commandments?

Comment by JC | May 20, 2009
Craig
I just want to bless You and let You know that I was very touched by the way that You have conducted Yourself in the midst of criticism!
I understand You!
God Bless You!

Comment by My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours too | May 20, 2009
I seem some irony in the fact that Grant contributed two very long posts that rely entirely upon the teachings of men immediately after a few posts that called for reliance oo GOD’S word rather than man’s word.

I think Grant clearly demostrates a problem that will continue to plague him (and others) UNTIL he learns to put his trust in SCRIPTURE AND THE HOLY SPIRIT and not in clinging to (and promoting) the words of men.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
I just wanted to thank Lawrence Luprypa for his comment to Grant, It saved me the trouble…Grant’s so full of hot air…Not much else. Oh, and by the way Paul Washer’s message to the 5,000 youth is fantastic. Its posted on “andrew Strom’s web page.

Comment by karen justinn | May 21, 2009
From a blog by Man named JM Whalen who wrote this and it is subjective but has scripture in it

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access(emphasis mine) by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” Romans 1, 2

Peace means the war is over. I was an enemy(Romans 5:10 ), but I am no longer. Only enemies need reconcilliation. God is not angry with me any longer, and is not imputing my sins to my account(2 Cor. 5:19). And by His grace, I have not only reconciled, but justified. As hard as it is for The RCC to accept it, it is a FACT that when God looks at me, he does not see my sin, or my sins(sin, singular, was judged at Calvary, and all sins, plural, were forgiven by 1 Cor. 15:1-4-”my old man” was judged at the cross, all my sins are gone, never to be brought up again or charged to me again), nor my righteousness, he sees the righteousness of his son. So then, if God the Father has a problem with me, he would then have to have a problem with the Lord Jesus Christ-impossible!

Peace means the LORD God has NOTHING against me. This involves:

1. That God has fully judged sin, upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my substitute.
2. That God was so fully satisfied with Christ’s sacrifice, that he will eternally remain so; he will never take up the judgment of my sin again=”What sin”?
3. That God is therefore at rest about me forever, however poor my understanding of truth, and however weak my walk is. God is looking at the blood of Christ and his righteousness, not my sins. All the demanding claims of the Law were met by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

My peace is not as between 2 nations before at war; but as a king and rebellious, rotten, guilty subjects. My heart is at rest because God, against which all sin is directed, has been fully satisfied at the cross(propitiation). “Peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” does not mean peace through what he is now doing, but through what he did do on the cross. All the majesty of God’s holy and righteous throne was satisfied by the Lord Jesus Christ by his death, burial, and resurrection. And now, being raised from the dead, the Lord Jesus Christ is my peace. But is is his past work at Calvary, not his present work of intercession, that all is based upon; and this gives all believers a sense of peace which he made through his blood.

Re. ” By whom also we have access”, the word “also” sets this blessing forth as distinct from and additional to that of peace with God. Through the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we have believed, we have been given to the JUSTIFIED(the basis of our access) access into a wonderful standing in divine favor, totally “…accepted in the beloved….”(Eph. 1:6). Being in Christ, we have the very favor, access, in which Christ stands and has.

Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Grace is getting something you do not deserve. THE FINALITY OF THE CROSS settled the sin issue-it was dealt with completely 2000 years ago, when JUSTICE, MERCY, AND GRACE. were all put on public display”-the meaning of “…set forth….” in Romans 3:25. God has already accomplished JUSTICE by judging His only Begotten Son in my stead, and thus I received 1. MERCY=not getting what I deserved because the Lord Jesus Christ took my judgment by taking my place=”FOR”=the principle of substitution and identification, and 2.GRACE=getting something I don’t deserve=the righteousness of God in Christ through the principle of imputation.

Again, the Holy Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ died once for all sin and sins inclusively-all issues were settled, including THE BARRIER which prevented my communication with a holy LORD GOD=access. While “short accounts” for forgiveness was the method God used to deal with the sin issue in the past(including the sacrificial system of continuous confession and sacrifice, and including the time of “the gospels”), it is no longer in this dispensation. I am complete in Christ(Col. 2:10), and thus there can never be a “sin issue” or “fellowship” problem, lest God somehow is not satisfied with the work of his Son. Either God took care of all issues, or he did not. He did.

All my sins were deposited in hell 2000 years ago. The Lord God sees me as completely justified and righteous, and no charges can be held to my account-the court and jury met 2000 years ago, the payment for sin was made, sin(singular)was judged, and all sins(plural) were forgiven. These charges were dismissed 2000 years ago, not because of anything I did, or will do or not do in the future, but because of already was done on my behalf by this great and only Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ. Since I am “in Christ”, the LORD God sees His Son and His righteousness. My standing with God does not depend on me asking for forgiveness, or repenting of sin(my “walk”-sanctification)- that is unbelief, asking the LORD God to do something he has already done, and making justification dependent on my faithfulness to service, instead of the faithfulness of the Saviour.

Nowhere in Paul’s inspired writings did the Lord Jesus Christ instruct him to teach about incremental forgiveness, or that we are to go to the “forgiveness bank” and to make a withdrawal each time we sin. Instead, we are to believe that we are forgiven, and to thank God, out of gratitude, and not fear(which never motivates man to serve God, as demonstrated by Israel’s experience and testimony in the OT) for his grace! Is the riches of God’s grace magnified when we believe in his completed work, and Christ’s all inclusive forgiveness, or when you ask God to forgive you over and over again, when he told us that we have already been forgiven? Is your forgiveness conditioned based upon how many times you ask or plead or “confess”, or are we to believe it is a done deal? I suggest you not ask “how you feel”(human emotions are unreliable and deceitful), or what you have heard from “mainstream” Christianity, which mostly fails to “rightly divide the word of truth”, to find the truth in this dispensation.

The Biblical order is SONSHIP(justification), then SERVICE(sanctification). Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial “horse before the cart”, and are confusing service to our Father AS SONS with service TO BECOME SONS. Those who make statements such as “make Jesus Lord of your life”, “turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus”, despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything, make this deadly error. The LORD God needs nothing from us(Acts 17:25, Job 35:7, Haggai 2:8) and is not, and will not, condition/make “giving our life to Him”(service) the basis for His acceptance of us. Again, The LORD God has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ’s voluntary sacrificial offering of HIS LIFE, not ours, as proptiatory(satisfactory). All service is a priviledged responsibility given as a gift to those who have been declared adopted sons by faith in the finished and faithful work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Holy means “sanctified”=set aside for God’s purpose. But God only uses those instruments that are His sons, and “saints” describes those who are already justified=His=”in Christ”. And the LORD God would have us know this biblical order in Corithians-Paul calls the Corinthians, the most carnal, dirty, lustful group of believer SAINTS.

Consider the book of Galatians, which is a stern, severe, corrective, and solemn message-there is no word of commendation, praise or thanksgiving. Paul’s “heart” is laid bare here as the letters are peppered with deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his “fighting epistle”-he is on a war path, with no tolerance for legalism! It is the declaration of freedom from all types of legalism. While Romans was from Paul’s “head” with its lawyerly, systematic treatise on justification by faith, and faith alone, Galatians was from his heart. It is the boldest, strongest declaration and DEFENSE(as is this post) of the doctrine of justification by faith in and out of the scriptures, and, as such, is God’s polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian truth against any attack. That is, not only is a sinner saved by grace through faith(not commitment), but the saved sinner lives by grace(sanctification=commitment=the Christian “walk”). But we must not confuse justification(the declaration of righteousness) with sanctification! Yes, we are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presense of sin(glorification), but these are not equivalent biblical doctrines, and people are perverting the gospel of Christ by putting the proverbial “horse before the cart”, i. e., they are placing sanctification=commitment=give your life to Christ in the wrong biblical order-as a “prerequisite” to justification, or as the means to justification. No, No, No!! Interestingly enough, Paul had nothing but condemnation for the Galatians, and yet, for the Corinthians, as mentioned, the most carnal bunch of Christians, who were engaged in adultery, drunkeness, gluttony…..he had words of encouragement, and never questioned their justification, as witnessed by his continual reference to them as “in Christ”, and as SAINTS. This should be an object lesson for us all, and should cause each of us to cry with joy and praise for the truly amazing grace bestowed upon e! ach one of us wherby we are made “…accepted in the beloved….”(Ephesians 1:6) by this great God of ours(Psalms 145:3). And this should be our motivation to “…walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called….”(Ephesians 4:1), “..walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God….”(Colossians 1:10), “…walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory….”(1 Thessalonians 2:12), “..walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more….”(1 Thessalonians 4:1),.”…as children of light….”(Ephesians 5:8), which is our “….reasonable service….”(Romans 12:1) as sons.

No one would disagree with anyone who would say we should “live a holy life before God”(sanctification), BUT NOT AS A BASIS FOR OUR ACCEPTANCE by Him-not as our basis for JUSTIFICATION! We live a holy life because we are sons, because we are justified, because we are saved, NOT TO BE SONS, NOT TO BE JUSTIFIED, NOT TO BE SAVED.

No one has,or can, truly(and this is a subjective criteria)repent(ed) of all their sins”, no one has, or can “surrender 100% to the Lordship of Jesus Christ”(and this is a subjective criteria), no one has “put away the things or our previous life and life style”, no one has, or can, “live(d) for God 100%”, for all have been pronounced “guilty”(Romans 3:19 ), and “…come short of the glory of God….”(Romans 3:23), in not only what we do, but what we do not do, and how we think. Sin is not just “wrong doing”, it is “wrong being”. Nor will the LORD God accept any offering these acts of service as a basis for justification, but will only accept the death by blood OFFERING of the Lord Jesus Christ’s spotless life, NOT OURS, and his resurrection, as a basis for our justification as sons.

Phrases such as “giving one’s life, heart(“commitment”) is not the proper object of faith.. Again, salvation has nothing to do with “giving” God anything! Salvation is not my gift to God. Rather, it is the issue of receiving a gift from God. The issue in salvation is not what we give to Him, but what He gives to us-eternal life. The issue is not giving your life to Christ-it is Christ giving up His life as an atoning sacrifice for you. Salvation has nothing to do with “giving up your life”, “surrendering your life”………-It was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave up His life and made full surrender when he yielded His life at Calvary. Again, when a lost person is told to “surrender his life, give his life to Jesus, commit his life to Jesus………”, this wrongly presumes that a person has something worthy to give(whether that is time, money, service……), and confuses SERVICE with SALVATION. It requires a “commitment” to serve Christ “up front” before salvation, and it presents a work-based performance system as a basis for acceptance by God.

Phrases such as “Give your heart to Jesus” may sound very romantic, but we are not saved by “falling in love with Jesus”-we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ’s finished work at Calvary and His resurrection 3 days later. Giving one’s heart, life(commitment) is an activity of service to the Lord, and and, as such, service and dedication is something the LORD appeals to believers to do(Romans 12:1-2, for eg.). But this is service from those who have become his own. The biblical order is sonship, then service. Service, then sonship is a work-based performance system, as typified by the Roman Catholic Church, and “perverts the gospel of Christ”(Gal. 1:7). Statements such as ” …I believe salvation is a journey; it is not a moment in time” reflect this mindset and false doctrine. Sanctification is a journey, but justification is not. Justification is a “moment in time” declaration of righteousness based on the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Practically every false doctrine is a result of “getting things out of order”, as I mentioned previously. The divine order is justification, then change/sanctification, not change/sanctification and then salvation. Notice in Romans 5:6, God “JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY(emphasis mine)”-no “fixing yourself up first”, no “stop sinning first”………. Notice in Romans 5:8, “while we were yet SINNERS(emphasis mine), Christ died for us”. Again, those who make statements such as “make Jesus Lord of your life”, “turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus, commit your life to Jesus”(despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything!) make this deadly error-confusing sancification with justification.

Many error by thinking that “stop sinning”=acts of commission “solves the sin issue”. You could “stop sinning” all the rest of your life(which is a self righteous PRIDE that no one can do), and that would not allow you in the presence of our Holy God. Sin is not just wrong acts, it is “not doing what you are suppose to do”, and it is “wrong thinking”-thus,”all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. The LORD God has pronounced all of us GUILTY, with no exceptions(read Romans again)-guilty of not only what we do, but guilty of falling short of his absolute standard, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST=”who he wants us to beThe biblical requirement is not just forgiveness=a pardon for an offence, but JUSTIFICATION=a legal declaration of righteousness, and includes not just “stop doing what is wrong”, but also DOING EVERYTHING THAT IS RIGHT in thought, word, and deed(had any evil thoughts today? I have). And this is “the righteousness of God in him”(2 Cor. 5:21), the “righteousness of God”(Romans 1:17), ” righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe”(Romans 3:22), “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith”(Philippians 3:9).

The divine operation works from within to without, the opposite of Satan’s “modest operandi”(sic), which works from the outside of man to within. We need to preach the gospel of Christ, and not confuse the “fruits” of salvation, the effects of salvation, which is our “walk”/sanctification, with the CAUSE of salvation. Only the gospel of Christ is the”power of God unto salvation”(Romans 1:16)- and this is the power of God from the PENALTY of sin (justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presence of sin(glorification).

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5

In Christ and with Christ ,

John M. whalen

Comment by grant | May 21, 2009
In support of Grant.
Thank you for your last post and forgive me if I misunderstood you previously. I agree with what you have said concerning eternal security of the believer that is not dependent on our performance. Pre-salvation my background was catholic and confess that I still have a propensity to guilt, fear of God’s disapproval and striving to earn His love. It is a weakness, a mind set if you like that has been a struggle for me, but one through the Grace, patience and Love of God I am learning to overcome.

However we need to distinguish between the ‘theology’ (for want of a better term) of Lordship salvation and the beliefs of Paul Washer. I do not see the works orientated, performance based, legalism in him, but an impassioned heart cry for holiness in the Church amongst other things such as a passion for the lost.

Concerning the believers walk, there is a balance as mans insecurities mean that there seems to be a hard-wired tendency that to establish for him or herself a set of clear, rigid doctrines, whereby all his/her views and beliefs are protected and unchallenged concerning biblical truths. What I am saying is that we fall into a trap if we hang our hat on one or two verses that support our view, as we need the whole counsel of God. The word of God is full of various Scriptures that would be contradictory if understood without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is free yes and cannot be earned, yes fruit in our lives comes through abiding in Christ and not through our own efforts. However If an individual, or a group choses not to walk in the Spirit then they are as a consequence in opposition and disobedience to God (which walking in the flesh is) There are several admonitions and warnings to the Church throughout the Gospels and the Epistles that imply that eternal security is not absolutely guaranteed should a believer depart from the faith and serve his own flesh and indeed this can even be professing Christians who allow willful sin to remain in their lives or are negligent concerning what the Lord has clearly shown them to do or not to do.

Paul Washer I believe is re-dressing the balance. If there is a weak, worldly, ineffective and carnal group of believers wherever they are, then surely this cannot be right. Is this solved by telling them they simply emphasizing that they are ok and do not need to change much as their eternal destiny is assured? In this instance I do not have much confidence for any change. The body of Christ is full of people who are living carnal lives but believe that Jesus loves them and they are going to heaven. This is not being judgmental (as I know that I am no better) but simply an observation. We still have choices and God is just, the way is still narrow and one would experience more joy in the confined way than in the broad.

Comment by Paul | May 21, 2009
By the way Grant, please do not misunderstand me, I understand you to be real disciple of Christ and I was no way implying that you were in the flesh, I am just or the sake of discussion, posting my understanding on the whole debate.

Comment by Paul | May 21, 2009
Grant,
A word of advice.
Forget all the quotes you keep providing from men.
Why not spend your time in the scriptures instead of in men’s writings.

Then you will have a better idea of what GOD is revealing about Himself and His ways instead of filtering things through man’s ideas.

Comment by onesimus | May 21, 2009
Karen Justinn,

“I just wanted to thank Lawrence Luprypa for his comment to Grant, It saved me the trouble…Grant’s so full of hot air…Not much else.” Are these the comments you would have troubled yourself to make Karen? This word of encouragement to Grant, a brother I believe might be struggling in his walk, whose pages and pages of words might be a shield from a world of hurt?

“Looks like YOU have no place in any church lol.”

Or this edifying remark:

“ARE YOU FOR REAL??????????”

I feel very sad for you, if these are the things you applaud. I have confronted Mr. Luprypa about his sneering, rude and even anti-semitic comments on other threads: http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/why-would-a-christian-even-want-to-pray-at-the-western-wall/
but he has ignored me, and I would hate for anyone to give him any encouragement at all to his sarcastic manner of making comments.

I would urge you to read my exhortation above, on May 16,in which I plead for us to cleanse ourselves of these kind of comments that give our opponents in the NAR too much ammunition in saying we are the haters in the battle for truth. Wouldn’t you be humiliated if someone said you were full of hot air?

Yes, Jesus turned over tables, and spoke about broods of vipers, but most of the sons of Adam have so many bitter roots in our hearts we are playing with a dangerous fire when we let sarcasm flow from our tounges. In our disobedience to God’s word, we are often no different than the sorcerers we condemn–David Wilkerson says the same thing much more powerfully in the link I provide above.

I think you are new to this blog. Reading Wilkerson’s words is a great way to purge your heart before you begin to study the hearts of others. I have learned this lesson of John Stott’s from many painful mistakes: “We are on the wrong side of the judging equation when we ascribe the worst motives to anothers’ actions.” I only seek to save you from my own sad history of failing to pray before I press send, and thus my comments are really coming from a heart of love and concern. I pray you recieve them in that fashion.

Comment by Karen Butler | May 21, 2009
Oney-breathe deep and exhale, breathe deep and exhale, breathe deep and exhale….it’s okay…everything will be all right

Comment by grant | May 22, 2009
Oney this is good by video by Abbott and Costello-cheer up!

Comment by grant | May 22, 2009
Thanks Grant,

Really enjoyed the video. However I do think that one of the waitresses were being legalistic and the other was showing more grace. Two sides of the same coin?

I think I need help!

Comment by Paul | May 22, 2009
Thanks Grant,

I really enjoyed the video. However I do believe that one of the waitresses was being legalistic whilst the other one was showing more grace. Two sides of the same coin?

I think I need help!

Comment by Paul | May 22, 2009
Paul,

I had no time to finish the other part of what needs to be said, that you are a model for us all! “The wise in heart are called discerning, and pleasant words promote instruction.” (Proverbs 16:21) I love your gentle manner with Grant.

I am struggling for understanding in these areas of salvation, and would at present fall into the Washer/Reformed camp in saying I believe if we have surely been saved, we can rest in the Father’s keeping and know we are securely saved. But I cannot debate these matters at present. I have cucumbers and a watermelon that need to be
transplanted.

Comment by Karen Butler | May 22, 2009
Onesimus,

You are certainly to be commended as well, great improvements have been made in your manner since last you tangled in these thorny issues. Don’t I sound like a homeschooling mommy here? “Good job, boys!” Yet I always say I am the one who is really being homeschooled, with great lessons in patience and perserverance.

No, I haven’t got the courage to go over to the millennium page, I am so afraid I might get wounded in the crossfire. I admire both you and BB so much! I will take a peek when the intensity in my life calms a bit.

Comment by Karen Butler | May 22, 2009
Grant,

Thank you for your humorous contribution. My little girls were puzzled, but I know my teenage boys are going to find it a hoot! I think the waitresses were too much at each extreme–sloppy grace or fawning/frowning legalism.

There is a better way, and you will find it when you drop the defensive shield of your Lordship Salvation, and contemplate the beauties of the Savior alone.

As Tozer said,

“Faith is the least self-regarding of the virtues. It is by its very nature scarcely conscious of its own existence. Like the eye which sees everything in front of it and never sees itself, faith is occupied with the Object upon which it rests and pays no attention to itself at all. While we are looking at God we do not see ourselves–blessed riddance. The man who has struggled to purify himself and has had nothing but repeated failures will experience real relief when he stops tinkering with his soul and looks away to the perfect One. While he looks at Christ the very things he has so long been trying to do will be getting done within him. It will be God working in him to will and to do.
Faith is not in itself a meritorious act; the merit is in the One toward Whom it is directed. Faith is a redirecting of our sight, a getting out of the focus of our own vision and getting God into focus. Sin has twisted our vision inward and made it self-regarding. Unbelief has put self where God should be, and is perilously close to the sin of Lucifer who said, `I will set my throne above the throne of God.’ Faith looks out instead of in and the whole life falls into line.
All this may seem too simple. But we have no apology to make. To those who would seek to climb into heaven after help or descend into hell God says, `The word is nigh thee, even in the word of faith.’ The word induces us to lift up our eyes unto the Lord and the blessed work of faith begins.
When we lift our inward eyes to gaze upon God we are sure to meet friendly eyes gazing back at us, for it is written that the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout all the earth. The sweet language of experience is `Thou God seest me.’ When the eyes of the soul looking out meet the eyes of God looking in, heaven has begun right here on this earth.”

I am repeating myself, but I could read that passage everyday, and I suspect you may have skipped over my post above. If you want to read the rest of that marvelous book, “The Pursuit of God”, there is a link above.

Grant, no one looking at me twelve years ago would have thought I was saved. To all appearances, I was a raving lunatic. I am not exaggerating. I thought everyone was trying to poison me and that my husband was Satans’ spawn. That is so embarrassing to say, as he is the dearest man in the world to me now, but you should understand my desperate straits, and that I truly am a trophy of His grace.

I am His trophy because I was soundly saved. And as I turned to God, He continued to save me, He rescued me, and delivered me because He delighted in me for a covenant I had made with Him by His own Son’s blood. I turned to Him, humbled myself and admitted my unbelief. I was immediately delivered from my post-partum psychosis, and ushered into the process of a more complete healing of my broken thought life…it is a life of joy and peace and of enjoying His overflowing love uninterrupted save when I sin against Him. It is the abundant Life He has promised all His children, and we fail to enter His Rest through our unbelief.

Through a long self-crucifying process (I traded my stinking thinking for His pure thoughts, this is the whole business of being conformed to the image of His Son) my life was completely transformed. There is no more unending anxiety and relentless battle against depression. No more escape for me into books, or numbing the pain with busyness, like the godly Barbie Doll I was, a plastic smile firmly fixed in place, hoping all my good works would fill the hollows of my heart. In that crazy day, I fell against that Rock yet again and He mercifully broke me apart. I would not be broken like that again, not for anything, but I am so grateful that I was. He was so gracious to me, Grant. He had given me every warning, but I was so stubborn and proud, the bit was between my teeth, and I did not really believe He was good, (though I would confess that with my mouth), and so He had to go to His severe mercy of last resort with me. He brought me through the fires of what I feared the most, and showed me that if I descended even into Hell, He would be there too. His perfect Love for me cast out, and continues to cast out, all fear in me, especially my chief fear, that of man. But I am learning that even the wrath of men brings Him praise, and with that remainder of wrath He will arm us as well.

This post is much too long, but I felt led to tell you my story so you would understand that I get it, that I know to every part of my soul, Salvation Is Of The Lord. But listen to me Grant, please hear me! Salvation is in relationship to Jesus alone, in being beloved and shielded and resting between the good Shepard’s’ shoulders, there is no safety in doctrines, as I so painfully learned. In this lengthy post I simply am seeking to spare you some pain.

Finally, the sun is out, the mist is gone. I am going to get into my grubbies, and work in my own garden.

Comment by Karen Butler | May 22, 2009
My Beloved is Mine…,

Thanks for the kind words.

I’ve been out of the loop for a while here. I may be able to make it back some time this weekend…

Comment by Craig | May 22, 2009
I like the answer of Karen Butler, we all need Him to put His banner over us, and to tell us , : I invited you long time ago ( who are tired and heavy laden, and I will give you rest, learn from me that I am meek and humble of heart, and I will give you peace for your souls), stay close with and behind me, and enjoy the grace and the Love with which you are loved, by us.
Paul is actually giveing witness that that is exactly whaere we shoud be, close to Him, at His feet, in His presence, watch
We have been gound guilty, wanting of all that is good and
righteous, and then: Jesus fills this void, this gap, this want

Comment by Eric | May 22, 2009
Comment by Eric | May 23, 2009
Hi my name is John and i see all these comments about pauls righteous anger but do you forget the righteous anger of our holy God upon all sinners, and if the Lord live in paul washer do you not think now that the Lord has made him to hate sin as does the Lord even more. Anyways the Lord introduced me to Paul Washer this past year and now i only listen to preachers like him who our not afraid of speaking the gospel the way it is suppose to be. I am so blessed because of it. I have listened to almost 10 or more of pauls sermons, and you get an overall feeling of what his message is after listening to them, this man has the holy spirit but his relationship is so close to the Lord that some can’t take in his messages without being angry. I actually have been on david stewarts site before and seen all of those that he has said our false prophets, and his list has even john macarthur on it. He also seems to consider anyone who does not use the kjv a heretic. Actually on sermonindex.net i answered his accusation about him.heres the link

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=28823&forum=35&15

Comment by John Beechy | May 30, 2009
This is a great sermon called repent and believe by paul washer it is very good.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=13924&commentView=postComment

Comment by John Beechy | May 30, 2009
Reply to Grant-

I think you are confusing the issue. Paul Washer is just trying to get the people to understand that Salvation without repentance is NOT Salvation. Yes Salvation is a free gift, but when we accept the “gift” and then don’t meet the requirements then those people will not enter into God’s Kingdom.

These scriptures are clear about that:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Hbr 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
1 Cor 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Philipians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Sara

Comment by Sara | June 3, 2009
You said: Yes Salvation is a free gift, but when we accept the “gift” and then don’t meet the requirements then those people will not enter into God’s Kingdom.

What are the requirements you speak of?

Comment by grant | June 20, 2009
Heb.10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me[h] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.[i] 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “ For yet a little while,
And He[j] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[k]just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[l]
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

I Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Comment by grant | June 20, 2009
sara-

http://tycm.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/a-fearful-expectation-of-judgement-versus-a-confident-expectation-of-good-1st-service-18-may-2008/

Comment by grant | June 20, 2009
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Comment by J | July 10, 2009
REPENTANCE is not works.Christ died on the cross specifically for our SINS to restore us into fellowship with a HOLY GOD.Therefore to be restored into fellowship with God, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our SIN and lostness and points us to Jesus for salvation.Turning to Jesus to save us from our lost state and hell would hence necessitate a deliberate decision and choice on our part in making an about turn from our SIN and old life, and redirect ourselves towards the saving grace of a Holy God.That is repentance and it is not works. The works that is necessary to save is already finished on Calvary.Our SIN is the reason Jesus died on Calvary, and to make light of the neccesity of repenting from our personal sins is to make light of God sacrifice of His Son to save us.The evidence of true repentance and conversion is in the changed lives of those born again.This is only made possible because the Holy Spirit who now resides in the new believer supernaturally enables him to live the new life in Jesus.This change which comes after salvation is works but not ours but that of the Holy Spirit.This change might be dramatic or it might be gradual or not noticable at all, depending on ones previous background.Of course we do sin but the santifying work of God continues. We remain work in progress. I therefore find it hard to understand why some still think repentance is not an essential prerequisite to salvation and confuse it with works.It explains why Paul Washer emphasises on judging by the fruits and not on whether we have said the sinners prayer.

Barry K

Comment by Barry K | May 18, 2009

Excellent!!!

Comment by Howie C | July 12, 2009
Man All yall Lil Kids saying paul washer is mean and he shouldn’t beat his fist on the podium Go Get your bible and study Hoe Jesus Would preach And study when he went to the temple and what he did and also study how man disciples walk away from him cause of his message GOD BLESS Paul washer Is Preaching truth! That’s the bible It only hurts cause either u living in the flesh or Cause his right truth hurts

Comment by Ricki | July 17, 2009
Just watched the first 30 seconds of Paul Washer. Thats all I want to see. He says that The people who sit under Joel Osteen want exactly the same as Joel Osteen, AND IT’S NOT GOD!! (he says yelling at his audience). Well mr washer, who set you up as the judge of Joel Osteen? You can see his heart can you? He doesnt want God?. Seems like Paul Washer is a very critical hard harsh angry person. Put it this way,- if I was going to have a party–would I invite Paul Washer?? Ummm let me think–would he be fun to have in my home?–would he be nice to my friends?–would he be flexible and empathetic to those he meets in my home? I think the answer is ‘no’ to be quite honest. Would he get angry and bash the kitchen bench, or bash his fist on the dinning room table? Yes possibly. I think I will leave him off my list for now.

Comment by Ross | July 18, 2009
Paul David Washer is a false prophet, a member of the apostate Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), who teaches Lordship Salvation. He never once mentions salvation as being the “free gift” of God in his sermons.

Since God created man in His own image, victory, success, health, abundance, joy, peace, gladness and happiness, are the things most people treasure! And unlike others God has the power to make it happen (1 Chronicles 29:11-12).

And the bible has many promises that God will make it so for those who believe His the good report of the Lord Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, And come to Zion with singing, With everlasting joy on their heads. They shall obtain joy and gladness, And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Isaiah 51:3 For the LORD will comfort Zion, He will comfort all her waste places; He will make her wilderness like Eden, And her desert like the garden of the LORD; Joy and gladness will be found in it, Thanksgiving and the voice of melody.

Comment by brad | July 18, 2009
Sounds like Jesus wouldn’t be welcome at your ‘party’ either Ross! He upset people,called them hypocrites, and even turned over a table or two…oh and I don’t think Paul Washer is judging Joel Osteens heart, but rather, his message.

Comment by Elizabeth A | July 19, 2009
Ross

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, Lord Lord , shall enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Ross , Christs return is soon , and there are many in the church, many so called christians , for whom that day will not be a party.It is to these people that Paul Washer addresses his message.
Yes , Paul Washer is angry and he has every right to be, but his anger will be nothing compared to the wrath of God against those who sat in churches, had bibles in their homes and tickled their ears with the likes of Joel Osteen, T D Jakes, Brian Houston and the list goes on and on, and still refused to see and accept the amazing plan of salvation that God has offered to all.These preachers teach a different gospel!, and their day of destruction is imminent, and so to those who refused to seek the truth.

2 Thess 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the LOVE OF THE TRUTH , that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Ross , i have stated here on this site and i will say it again,we are to test all things and discern the spirits, and this we do by the word of God.We may well not know a persons heart, but we can test what they say and believe against what Gods word says.
Ross , party if you will , but the Kingdom of God is serious business, there’s only one chance to get it right!.
God Bless

Comment by ray | July 19, 2009
Ross,

So it is all about you, a party, and fun?

So that is what an Osteen disciple looks like…it all makes sense now…Hey, your best life now!

“Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”

Ah, shucks, maybe He didn’t mean it…

Comment by NOTW67 | July 19, 2009
Is there a worry among you that in the hands and minds of these so called ‘preachers’ Jesus is becomeing more and more ‘divorced’ from relaity (theirs that is) and the messages supposedly from him (Jesus that is !)are getting more and more bizzare. If you have half a mind, as these seem to, plus the gift of the gab, as these seem to then you can, if you keep pounding away at it, convince anybody of anything especially if the bank balance is getting a bit low!.

I just wonder who they are tuned into. Cesear more than likely.

Comment by hopesome | July 19, 2009
I agree with most of what Paul Washer says. When he hits the podium he was telling the truth. He gave the story about a drug addict receiving Jesus when he was 8. Thats completely false and has every right to be angry, to stand up for truth. The only thing I dont agree with and I’ve said this in many posts before. His preaching should be and probably is directed to non believers. A true Christian whether there wealthy or poor will honor God above and with everything they have. I guess what I dont agree with is, is this type of preaching really equipping the church to reach the lost. Sure its warning other Christians of other “false movements and preachers” but is it really equipping them to seek and save that which is lost? His type of preaching reminds me of Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, and Jonathan Edwards. IF and only if, these men and Paul Washer use this as evangelism is absolutely biblical, fine, perfect etc. BUT if they consist of reminding believers of “God’s Law and judgement” its totally useless. And I’ve said alot on this site, Do christians need to be reminded of the Law? No, the law is for sinners to show how sinful they are. Christians are absolutely perfect, cleansed and righteous in Gods eyes. Why? because of Christ’s perfection, righteousness and His cleansing blood. When God sees us He sees Christ covering us. Paul many times wrote to the churches saying this same exact thing. Stop preaching legalism and the law to those who don’t need it. Sinners need the law, those who are saved dont. Plain and simple. So why is this stuff being preached in true Christian churches where the majority people are saved? Do we need a reminder week in and week out of how wicked and evil we were? Remember Paul actually got mad because the churches in his day were preaching the same thing over and over again. But Paul said “let us go into the meat of the word. You guys already know about eternal judgement, the law, the laying on of hands, faith, etc. Paul actually said these were the foundations of the faith. So if you go to a church and they’re preaching these things over and over and over you’re being fed the milk of the Word. In God’s eyes you’re still babes in Christ, not yet ready for the meat of the Word. What was the meat of Paul’s writing? On what subject did Paul talk about most? Christ in the believer and grace through faith were his main topics throughout the Bible. The victory in the christian walk and everyday life is Christ in you. Living, breathing, walking in you.

Barry
REPENTANCE is not works.
Repent means to change or renew your mind to something. When we understand that we need a savior, through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, we then make the decision to dedicate our lives or reject Him. I’m sure there are many many many unbelievers who have been convicted by the Holy Spirit and then rejected Christ. God gave us a free will.
Good point in your post.

Comment by Jesus Heals | July 19, 2009
Ross,

Nobody, you or me, loves a spoilt sport who would ruin the party. Honestly, we would rather have someone who can liven up our party and say nice and complimentary things and make our guests happy to party on.Paul Washer would be the last one I would invite if I had a party, and for that matter Jesus too, for I am afraid He might overturn tables and say unpleasant things about sin, repentance, judgement and hell, and make unwelcomed statements, and upset my guests.

But the reality is that we have to make a hard choice. We all need to decide and therefore choose what we want to hear, regardless of whether the preacher is banging tables or not.And that depends on what we believe as true or false. Is the message of Jesus for self-fulfilment or is it about self-denial? This is the difference between the gospel of Jesus the apostles taught, and a different gospel.The word of God is absolute and sharper than a 2 edged sword and Jesus speaks bluntly and would spoil any party.How about this,Luke 9: 23-26

Then He said to them all, ” If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself,and take up the cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it,but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world,and is himself destroyed or lost? For whoever is ashamed of Me and MY words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.”

Luke 9:62 “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Those words are real party spoiler, but these blunt statements of Jesus clearly show that the gospel of Jesus is different from that of the gospel of gold and silver, of success and achievement, of happiness and self-fulfilment that Joel Osteen preaches.There are many more party spoiler verses in the Bible if you care to read.

The Bible clearly warned us to beware of false prophets and teachers in the last days, and exhort us to discern and judge them righteously against the word of God.Paul strongly and bluntly declares judgement as accursed on those who preach a different gospel contrary to what the apostles taught( Gal 1:8-9).The best way to single out a different gospel is to read the words of Jesus and the apostles and compare them with those of other preachers.A gospel that is diluted, watered down, adulterated with gold and silver etc or added on,slanted or altered is a different gospel that often etching ears love to hear.

It is not what Paul Washer or Joel Osteen say or how they act that mattter. It is what Jesus says that matters. It is not the gospel according to Paul Washer or Joel Osteen that matter. It is the gospel of Jesus that the apostles taught that matters, and is crucial to our spiritual state and our choices decide our eternal destiny.

Comment by Barry K | July 20, 2009
His dad was a SBC pastor…his wife left him, John got all depressed, went into secular work, went back into ministry and God gave him a new wife and 5 kids!!!

He started a tiny fellowship which grew from a few to 6000 … but it took 40 years: 1959 – 1999. He had real earned degrees in Theology, including Phd.s, but was thrown out from the Baptists in 1958 due to his receiving the Spirit of God with the scriptural evidence of tongues.

Joel took over in Oct. of 1999, 10 mos after his dad passed on. He does have 2 years of post-secondary, plus 20 yeras of practicum, before accepting the pastorship.
In the 10 years, he has more than doubled attendance. Which it seems is the reason people hate him lol. So it took John 40 years to get to 6k – which is only a small % per year.
By contrast, I went to my old church, which was at 500 14 yrs ago and now is at 100. Hmmm. Something wrong there.

Joel is a people person: “I hate divorce, but I am FOR divorced people”.

His messages have always been Gospel, his gift is ENCOURAGEMENT – not so much fear of the Lord and judgement.

I hate tattoos, but I love the tattooed person.
I hate drugs, but I care for those enslaved by them.

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | July 20, 2009
Karen Butler states I am “anti-semitic”?

LOL.

She does not even know what a semite is, me thinks. A semite is a descendant of Shem – as in Arab. Or a Sepahradic Jew. Ashkenazi “Jews” are not genetic Jews, they are Japhethites, as the BIBLE clearly states:
Genesis
10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz ….”

Ashkenazites settled in E.Europe: Khazaria. They spoke Yiddish and adopted talmudic Judaism as their state religion c. 700ad. They are not olive skinned.

Sorry to have to resort to facts in order to confront your personal attack on me and my integrity?

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | July 20, 2009
>>Benjamin H. Freedman was one of the most intriguing and amazing individuals of the 20th century. Mr. Freedman, born in 1890, was a successful Jewish businessman of New York City who was at one time the principal owner of the Woodbury Soap Company. He broke with organized Jewry after the Judeo-Communist victory of 1945, and spent the remainder of his life and the great preponderance of his considerable fortune, exposing the Jewish tyranny which has enveloped the United States. Mr. Freedman knew what he was talking about because he had been an insider at the highest levels of Jewish organizations and Jewish machinations to gain power over our nation. Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, and John F. Kennedy, and many more movers and shakers of our times. This speech was given before a patriotic audience in 1961 at the Willard Hotel in Washington.
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-freedman.html

>>The Jewish Mafia & Their USA Bankers
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=111

>>The Amazing Warnings Of Benjamin Freedman
http://www.rense.com/general34/amaz.htm

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | July 21, 2009
Ross: Well it puts you in “good” company, very much with those who rejected Jesus due to His annoying habit of saying uncomfortable things in a very direct manner. If only more men of God spoke out against these charletons and deceivers the church would gain a great deal more respect from the world. They seemingly understand the racketeering and scandalous behaviour, all to prevelant among the likes of Olsteen,Hagee,Warren,Hinn,Howard-Browne,Copeland,King etc,etc,etc, rather better than many “christians” appear to.
Sorry if Washer offends your sensibilities but defending the faith isn’t for wimps. (Incidentally spiritual things are spiritually discerned, its not ESP)
I suggest you undertake a study of the character of God and get an insight into His thoughts/feelings towards these pseudo christian leaders. It might help you to grow up!

Comment by Richard | July 22, 2009
L.Luprypa: Your criteria for measuring God’s approval is at the very least somewhat fanciful and taking your comments re John/Joel at face value, quite unbiblical.
Numbers/growth is rarely a biblically approved measure of God’s favour, never mind a principle. In fact more often than not numerical success is biblically questionable. By your standards Jesus earthly ministry was a spectacular failure and moreover His declaration in Mt24 that “most” would fall away, is hardly an endorsement of your summary.
The message of the cross is an offence to the unbeliever and the way is narrow that leads to life. This is the great error of Warren,Hybels and Olsteen who collectively water down the gospel until it is robbed of its challenge and power. They urge “converts” to “be positive”, sacrifice doctrine for unity and sell a “seeker-friendly” abomination they assert as the gospel. They are not friends of God, nor should they be afforded any recognition as those speaking/ministering on His behalf. Like many others they prostitute the Word of God for personal gain and public acclaim.
The church numbers game is further ridiculed when you consider that the ebb & flow in church attendance is often a
product of dis-affected christians moving from one church to another. The reality is that the universal church is shrinking.
Your rush to conclude the downturn in your fellowship is a negative and growth elsewhere is positive demonstrates your lack of understanding. When persecution comes calling or when the gospel is “faithfully” preached, more often than not numbers will fall. Inversely when the message is “God loves you and wants you to be happy and prosperous” far more express interest. The real question is are these guys building “church” or is it merely a CROWD?
Its not difficult to build a crowd. Most avenues of sport do it spectacularly well week in week out. Rent a building,
publicise your intention to give every attendee $500 and I’ll guarantee you’ll get more than 40,000 turn out. What’s more they’ll keep coming back just a long as you renew the deal.
Your generosity of spirit towards John Olsteen is sadly misplaced. Though I have no knowledge of why his wife left him, it must raise some concerns about his ability to pastor his wife. You speak as though he must be above reproach,which clearly he is not. Another case methinks of a leader espousing a “do as I say” message not “do as I do”. (what does the Word have to say about divorce?) Small wonder the world in general holds little or no respect for christian leaders when their own lives fail to demonstrate the outworking of their preaching. Jesus Himself seemed to rank human wisdom/cleverness rather lower than meekness and a servant heart. Not sure too much of these latter traits are in evidence in either Olsteen.
In the current economic downturn many “big” names are now struggling to meet costs. It will be interesting to look again at Olsteen in 3years and see if his gospel of “a prosperous mindset” is still working. The fact that many of these man-made empires are crumbling suggests not.

Comment by Richard | July 24, 2009
Lawrence,

His messages have always been Gospel, his gift is ENCOURAGEMENT – not so much fear of the Lord and judgement.

AGREED! His messages aren’t directed toward sinners, their directed to Christians to live to the fullest of what God has called them. Whether it be starting a business, ministry, or being an engineer his message is simply be the best God has created you to be. And don’t limit God, because God is limited by our thoughts. Let me say this positive thinking will NOT get us closer to God. Positive thinking will believe God for anything. A promotion, a lost loved one, or someone needing phsyical healing. If you don’t think positive and believe that God will provide then HE won’t provide. Simple as that. God WON’T override your will. If you don’t believe God will provide, then HE won’t because now it becomes unbelief. And unbelief is a major faith killer. So if you’re laid off start believing God for supernatural provision. Just to make my point. Positive thinking is very powerful, but it will NOT get me any closer to God. Did you ever notice someone who is always thinking negative? Their so filled with unbelief and fear. For example. If you tell someone “I’m starting a business.” The negative person would respond, “Well, you know starting a business is a risky thing. And what if people don’t buy things from you? And what about health insurance? You know it takes alot of time?” And the list goes on. Dream killers, thats all they are. They try to kill the dream that God has placed within you. The ministry of Joel Osteen is to equip Christians to be the best that God has called them to be. To use ALL resources available, to have faith, hope and a dream. To believe that with God ALL things are possible. And that through Christ I can do ALL things who strengthens me.

One last thing. Its a scientific fact that a happy person with positive thoughts is healthier than a person with negative thoughts and is depressed all the time. When you worry, have negative thoughts, or be depressed there is a chemical released in your body that actually kills your immune system. It’s also documented that a person that worries and or is depressed has a higher liklihood of cancer.

The persistent activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis in the chronic stress response and in depression probably impairs the immune response and contributes to the development and progression of some types of cancer.

So start thinking positive and believing God and being happy.

Comment by Jesus Heals | July 25, 2009
Jesus’ owns words – Repent & Believe…When Christ saves by faith, it is a work of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit alone. God gives the ability to live the NEW LIFE in Christ. OT believers did NOT have the Holy Spirit as NT believers. They lived by the moral code of the law (which is a school master to show sinfulness)There conscious was not ‘cleansed’ as believers are by the work of the Holy Spirit..we can’t DO anything apart from Christ. We can not earn salvation.
I John is very clear about those who CONTINUE to walk in darkness yet confess to know God ~ They are LIARs and the truth is NOT in them. So, one can not continually, WILLFULLY sin ~ One will sin and may sin horribily as David and many others…but praise God we have an advocate in Christ Jesus ~ A Christian will NOT continue to commit adultry, steal, cheat, lie, gossip, or anything of the like – I think this is the point Paul Washer is making about those who habitually sin and say they are Christians. Christ will change us that we will cry aloud as David in Psalms 51…He sinned against God and God alone, and acknowledged his sin and confessed it to God that a new right spirit would be renewed in him ~

Comment by Laura | July 26, 2009
I think the problem I personally have with Paul Washer is that he is very judgemental on many ministries. Washer has an emphasis in his ‘teachings’ on the Law and Judgement of God. There is a Law yes, and there is a judgement yes. However that is one aspect on God only. There is this other HUGE side to God. The other aspect of God is Love and Mercy.
I really think Paul Washer needs to re-read the gospel. It isnt so much what Washer says that is so wrong in my opinion, but it is the imbalance of his words.
I would agree that there are times when Jesus was hard on the religious people, but page after page after page of the gospels is filled with Jesus demonstrating the heart of the Father in acts of love, mercy, kindness, grace, blessing, forgiveness, acceptance. These are the words that emphasise the ministry of Jesus.
I honestly think Paul Washer needs to read again through the gospels and see that there are other character traits to this amazing God we serve other than just Law and Judgement.
Because Paul Washer has spent so much time on this aspect of God, he himself is coming across as very legalistic and very judgemental. I think God is hurt by that. And I certainly dont enjoy listening to him because he is not presenting the whole gospel.

Comment by Ross | July 28, 2009
“Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods.”

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”

Moral decisions still matter for Christians. Giving in to sin results in people increasingly becoming obedient slaves to sin. This kind of activity eventually leads to death, not implying that genuine believers can actually lose their salvation but that sinning leads them in that direction, away from full enjoyment of life with Christ. Those who give themselves utterly to sin will die (face eternal punishment).

One here wrote: “There is NO gospel without repentance because the benefits of the gospel can not be obtained without that initial turning from ourselves towards God – true repentance evidenced by the demonstration of fruit in the life of the person who has repented. EVERYONE record in scripture of someone preaching the gospel had their message starting with the word ‘repent’.”

Now look around you at confused churchianity. How many have “repented” only to follow mammon preachers? How many have “repented”, and then divorced their spouse; or aborted a baby; or continued in a life that cannot be in any way differentiated from the lives pursued by the “worldlings” around him? Can any boast of a free-will repentance that lead to a free-will following of his own lustful heart in keeping with the world? Yes, we are morally accountable; yes, we must hold to Scripture alone–do we? Does it take 10 years of listening to liars whose consciences are seared before we see they are not speaking from Scripture, but from their own blind lust for gain? Do we not then witness to our enslavement to sin and to those that by nature are not gods? Can we say “Oh, this man deceived me” when the Scriptures are readily available to us? Can we just “pass the buck” and accept no blame? Can a sinner “feel remorse” for his sin, yet remain in it? Look to the parable of the seed. Only one of the four finds root. How is it obtained? By our own free-will turning? “God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth…” “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” This does not imply that people can be saved without having faith in Christ as Savior, because the need to believe is implied both in the command to “repent” and also in the command to “be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” The willingness to submit to baptism is an outward expression of inward faith in Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 3:21). The gospel can be summarized in different ways. Sometimes faith alone is named as the one thing necessary for salvation (see John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Rom. 10:9; Eph. 2:8–9), other times repentance alone is named (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 17:30; 2 Cor. 7:10), and sometimes both are named (Acts 20:21). Genuine faith always involves repentance, and vice versa. Repentance includes a change of mind that ends up trusting God (i.e., having faith). “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Here John calls for the people to remove the obstacles from their lives that might hinder their reception of the Messiah and his kingdom. To repent, or “change one’s mind,” in the OT called for a change in a person’s attitude toward God that impacted one’s actions and life choices; it involved the idea of “turning,” that is, from one way of thinking and living to a different way.
“For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” Grief that comes from God is characterized by repentance–remorse caused by having lost God’s approval and the consequent resolve to reverse one’s conduct and live for God. Grief that comes from the world–a remorse brought about by losing the world’s approval, leads to a resolve to regain that approval, and this produces death, or divine judgment. “For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.” The Corinthians’ response to the letter Paul wrote to them demonstrated that they truly belonged to God. What is our response to Scripture? What is our response to those who direct us to it–not for worldly gain, but as to a sword which pierces our puffed up hearts and drives us to our desperate and constant need of our Savior, Christ Jesus?

Yes, there is great need of “true repentance evidenced by the demonstration of fruit in the life of the person who has repented,” and great is the need for godly grief in the hearts of those who are told by ear-ticklers that they have repented and are convinced of salvation while yet they willfully follow not the Word but the desires of their own hearts in holding the idols of this world.

And let none think that he cannot repent and be saved, for mighty is the Lord our God! For even David wrote (Psalm 3), when the enemies were taunting him that his sins were so bad that God could not save him: “many are saying of my soul, there is no salvation for him in God.” “Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people!”
By looking back to v. 2, he remembers that it is the decision of the Lord, and not of the enemies, that makes the difference.

“Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Comment by NOTW67 | July 31, 2009
The only people who conclude that Paul Washer is in apostacy are modern “neo-calvinists” who have embraced the concept of “carnal christianity”, a concept who the vast majority throughout christodmom consider an apostacy in and of itself inwhich I tend to agree.

Comment by Jody McCoy | August 1, 2009
“Jesus’ owns words – Repent & Believe…When Christ saves by faith, it is a work of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit alone. God gives the ability to live the NEW LIFE in Christ. OT believers did NOT have the Holy Spirit as NT believers. They lived by the moral code of the law (which is a school master to show sinfulness)There conscious was not ‘cleansed’ as believers are by the work of the Holy Spirit..we can’t DO anything apart from Christ. We can not earn salvation.”–Laura

Amen and amen!

Comment by NOTW67 | August 2, 2009
So “God gave” a divorced man a new wife and kids. Wonderful testimony for a modern Gospel.

Kinda makes sense that Mark 10:11-12 (KJV, maybe it’s already out of the new translations) will be ignored by the modern teachers.

And Matthew 19, up to verse 10.

Now what i really need to know, is the verse where it is written, that Salvation is free. Costs nothing. License to sin without fear. And here i was losing out on the “good life” for letting go of my past sinful life and wanting to live a life that is pleasing to God.

Gee, us old-type believers really gotta get a life and get up with the times, don’t we? This Paul Washer guy, man, he is really stuck up with this old-age heresy that all should turn from sin to holiness. Maybe we should get all the NARs to pray for his eyes to open for the “good life.” Where salvation is free and then we go clubbing and boozing and all that used to go with it. Ain’t it great? The sinners next door who never go to church are all going to hell, and i’m gonna tell them at our next meeting, when i’m hopefully drunk enough and/or on a high, so i won’t mind what they say.

And then i guess i’ll invite them for a cruise to the Red Light Districk, where we can all live out our “brotherly and sisterly love for one another.” And then we get up and go to church and all is forgiven.

After all, isn’t salvation for free, with NO WORKS NECESSARY EVER FROM ME?

(For those who did not get it, this is a seriously twisted comment on the modern gospel).

Comment by Koos | August 2, 2009
I just listened, and I totally AGREE with Washer 100%. I will compare ‘preachers’ today to a little story..

If you drove to the store to pick up a few things..you know, bread, milk, eggs..and you left your children of various ages home (they were old enough), and when you came back home, you saw your house burning, the roof in flames..you would run, SCREAMING to the house, saying “my children, get them out”..but if your neighbor, came up to you, and calmly said, “it’s ok, don’t worry about it..the fire department has been called..they will be ok” you would think that person was absolutely insane! Emotion? Yes! If you cared for your children, those you love, and KNEW they were going to possibly perish in those flames, you would be ANYTHING BUT CALM. Think about it. This is for eternity. Heaven or Hell. There needs to be some screaming going on.

Comment by kinfolks2u | August 2, 2009
I agree with kinfolks2u. Just a few scriptures and observations.

Matthew 18:3 – Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted AND become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 11:25 – I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

John 12:48 – He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges Him – the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

I could give many, many more scriptures spoken by Jesus, Hebrews and 1 John as others have given, but that’s all of the scriptures I’ll say.

Now, some observations. Jesus said we have to give up our intellectualism and come to Him like a little child, and then God will give us understanding of the scriptures. Otherwise, we’ll not understand the word. And I’m by no means saying I understand everything, or even close to that.

When Jesus preached and taught, He did not mince words one bit. He did not try to please anybody, because of what’s at stake. Remember how great He said John the Baptist was. John didn’t mince words either. He completely put his flesh down and told people to repent, period. He also told them what that meant, in how to treat people.

Jesus called evil evil right to people’s faces, and they wanted to kill Him several times before He gave up His life, it made them so mad. The Apostle Paul also said he was not going to disobey God by being a man pleaser.

Jesus preached in BALANCE. He preached about the love of God, and also the judgment of God, including judgment of His people. Many of His followers left Him because of this. That didn’t change Him one bit. He just asked the ones who were left, “Do you want to leave too?”

His preaching offended people when He was on the earth, and it still does today. The only thing many Christians today know about Jesus, besides the fact that He shed His blood and died for us, is His teaching on faith, and that He’ll get us to the other side of the lake in the storm.

You never hear His commandments on how to live and treat people, and how to give money also, by the way. Nobody wants to offend anybody, and they want their churches full and the money coming into the church.

Because of this, a lot of people call Jesus Lord, and have very little idea what He preached or how He preached. And the terrible thing about that is, Jesus said that God will judge everyone based on His words.

To shorten this, Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law, and He also said that the whole law was fulfilled by loving God, and loving your neighbor. And the word says that love does no harm to a neighbor.

Also that love covers a multitude of sins. In other words, the most important thing is obeying God and not being evil to other people. Jesus explained very clearly how to treat people, in the Good Samaritan, the Rich Man and Lazarus, not getting wealthy by taking advantage of people, and on and on.

Since the preachers won’t preach the words in red except for the feel-good ones, if Christians would just study the gospels and the teachings of Jesus themselves instead of only the feel-good scriptures before and after the gospels, and ask the Lord to give them understanding of His words, there probably wouldn’t even be much argument on this subject at all.

Yes, we are only saved by faith, but after that we don’t have the freedom to live like and for the devil, like is being preached, without saying those words, of course. That is insulting the Spirit of Grace, and counting the blood of Jesus as a common thing.

And it’s not hard at all. It’s all heart attitude. Do we want to live right, or do we want to live however we want to? All we have to do is stay hooked up to God, and He’ll get us there.

Again, if we would just read the words in red, instead of skipping all around them, things would be a lot different and better in the Body of Christ.

Comment by Gary | August 4, 2009
I want to thank God a million time for what He his doing in the church

Comment by Amurawaiye Matthew | August 5, 2009
Awww, for all of you who thought he’s so mean-did he huwt your wittle feewings? Would your feelings have been hurt when Jesus started knocking over tables and whipping merchants or after Nehemiah rebuilt the walls and started punching people out for not being obedient. The problem with with Chrisyians is you’re only Christians to the oint of being inconenienced. If it takes any grit, any guts or any sweat, it’s like spreading mustard on a long piece of bread…the farther you go, the thinner it gets. I hope none of you pantyweights ever face some serious stuff. Jesus waled into a town where He KNEW (read that KNEW) they were going to torture Him and tear Him to bits and as an encore nail Him to a cross. Sometimes being a Chrisyian takes some balls.

Comment by Joe Briffa | August 6, 2009
Paul Washer gets points for not wearing jeans and contemporary shirts with shirttail out trying to be hip.
He’s unconventionally conventional

Comment by grant | August 8, 2009
Jesus preached in BALANCE. He preached about the love of God, and also the judgment of God, including judgment of His people.

__________________

Jesus preached in Balance, true, but Jesus didn’t judge His own people. If Jesus judged His own people then His death on the cross was in vain. A person who is TRULY saved doesn’t and will not be judged by God. Christ took our punishment on the Cross. We were once deserving hell but now by the shed blood of the lamb we are clean and spotless before God. Please don’t misunderstand me. There are consequences to peoples actions, but that isn’t the judgement of God. If a christian smokes cigarettes and gets lung cancer thats not the judgement of God. Thats their own choice they made and now they’re facing the consequences of their actions. That would be the same as a Christian who had a one night stand and got Aids or a sexually transmitted disease. Thats not God putting that on them, but rather their own mistake. So once again God doesn’t judge His own people. Paul said “We are no longer under condemnation, for the spirit of life has set us free from the power of sin. If we are no longer condemned then how can God judge us? Judegment is condemnation correct?

God Bless

Comment by Jesus Heals | August 9, 2009
Anger. I am generally repulsed at anger. I grew up among violence, vitriol, alcholism and physical abuse. The Lord entered my life somewhat graciously … a little surrender, grace bestowed, a trickle of humiliation, baptism in the Spirit. Healing from drug addiction, peace inexplicable. All this on the one night. We ought each one of us, look at our conversion experience and understand it afresh. We ought to study the Gospel of the Kingdom, and seek to apprehend it. I digress, but for the sake of the Gospel. Anger. For years I put up with “anger” in the preaching. It turned me off. It was stylish, coupled with oratory eloquence, yet it failed to impress me, and behind that fleshly facade was a contrivance that was blatantly apparent to my senses, yet many stood in awe, or “fear”. Then, just in the last six months, I heard Paul Washer twice, and Paris Reidhead (Ten Shekels and a Shirt – twice), and my discernment was confirmed. Such anger did not repulse me, but brought me to tears. This I know was God’s righteous anger. The Father’s heart was exposed – fear, and yet brokeness, intersected and converged spontaneously to render me undone in the presence of God. Friends, we must discern the voice of the Lord. May God bring us all into a fuller understanding of the Gospel, that which we are to work our in fear and trembling. (Jordan S)

Comment by 'Jordan S | August 10, 2009
It sounds like this man has a bitter spirit. I know, I can relate to it. God delivered me from a bitter spirit years ago. I have been a minister for many years now and there was a time I ministered from a bitter heart and this is exactly how I ministered, with shouting and anger. My bitterness came from giving up all 28 years to train as a missionary to serve the people of Africa as a full time missionary (12 years now) and because Women are not readily accepted as such, how hurtful it was to give up all to serve a people that rejected me. But thanks God, I overcame it quickly and now have a wonderful effective ministry that operates in a spirit of love. Only God could do that in my life. I pray that will happen for this man so that he can win them over and not isolate himself from them. Jesus loves Joel Osteen and is using him. As an American white female pastor living in another country, I have expereinced so much ridicule for my messages and have been taken out of context I cannot tell you and I know it is mostly because I am a woman being used powerfully and many men were threatened by that and that is why they critize me because I Know my messages to the best of my dependence upon the Holy Spirit to lead and teach me so that I can minister the Word of God with accuracy and effectiveness so it not the word that I preach (side note: they make comments like I preach an American Gospel, then when TBN and God TV came to the town we live in they began to hear messages that were based on the Word, then people stopped critizing me), but I choose to not get bitter but to get beI hope that is not why he is so critical, that he may covet what Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen has, I know that I know that is why people have critisize me, jealous of US support and the Word level that I have. Who ever reads this with a wrong attitude. Just thank God that you live in America, the greatest country, why are we? because everywhere you go you can find the Word of God being preached and it is done freely and we are a nation who sends out more missionaries than any country. In Africa, they think we are spoiled and grumble too much. I can tell you sad stories of the hopelessness these beautiful people expereince every day. My son who grew up in Africa was just awarded a scholarship to Oral Roberts Universtiy, There is a new anointing on this university, I can discern it. But when I think of all the young men and women in the country in which I live who cannot attend college because of money (it only costs about $200.00 a year to attend the best university) or those who have masters dergrees and cannot find a job and are driving taxis for about 40.00 to 50.00 dollars a month because of the high unemployment of about 65%. Can we not just be grateful for what we have here in America and not find fault with everyone and lift eachother up in words of encouragement. Walking in this kind of love is what will bring healing to our nation. Speaking words like this man is what is bringing us down. One thing I know, no matter how immoral our government and country my get, God’s government (Kingdom) is greater than all these things that we see happening and the great tranfer of wealth is coming to His people so that we can see the greatest harvest ever recorded and if God gives me great wealth so that I can build an orphange, clinic and youth center and women’s crisis center to help thousands of people, as we have for the 12 years with Medical missions, I pray that no one will speak evil about it like this man. I have learned this from expereice, it seems like the more we do good for people in Africa, the more the africans complain against us. Is that not what took Jesus to the cross,this very negative attitude like this preacher. Paul Washer if you read this, let God heal you and be a good example. A fellow worker in Christ!!!

Comment by Kathy | August 11, 2009
Kathy, I think we must all learn how to respond to the thousands of different expresive ways these day christianity is presented, lived, preached. One thing is for sure, the millions involved in all this groups are much more open to hear the truth, since they do not have disgust for the bible, the biblical expressions.

This millions all need to be instructed further in the narrow gate and the narrow road that leads to salvation. So let dear Paul know that the door of the Word can still be opened for those who are sent by the Lord.

I agree with his sermon here that Joel Osteen is not walking the narrow road, the simple reason: He is popular, all speak well of him, and he loves wealth and the good life, while Jesus said : that who loves his life in this world will loose it.

And you as a woman that wants to teach, do you know the Dynamis of the Holy Spirit, that works in a husband that does not obey the Word, when his wife does not oppose him, prays, and wins him with a gentle serving spirit? Are you a woman that when you grow old knows how to teach younger women to be good wives? Who keep the house and the family and the atmosphere in a house so godly that the children will learn how to be obedient and in submission to their parents?

Kathy i think you do a wunderful work in Africa, and that the Lord wants you there to work for Him, but rememeber one thing, when a mother brought forth sons, they need to grow up and be man, and become responsible adults, that later
even will surprise their mothers in theri strenght, and love and power.

So when your work for the gosepl brought forth sons and daughters, be sure to have the sons grown, and after they are not children anymore, help them to grow into leaders.
Mothers never were intended to be leaders of tribes, nations nor churches. I hope you will receive it
God bless africa and save America

Comment by Eric | August 15, 2009
WOW! Grant@06, you really made a good study of what whoever said at the place you wents to for fellowshipping.

Now do some study on the Word of God also.

Comment by Koos | August 16, 2009
Yes, Eric I do know the dunamis of the Holy Spirit, in fact many in the country I serve call me the Holy Ghost woman and Bruce Lee in the Spirit. I know how to pray and get quick answers to prayer and when I teach with a Spirit of Love, the comments that peole make about the teachings is that it goes down deep into thier spirit that brings change. (I conduct schools of the Holy Spirit and Schools of Prophetic Minstry, everyone that comes to the meetings experiece the presence of the Lord is great measure and they go away with the need they came with met. All because I have had to learn to lean on the Holy Spirit through some very difficult things that most would have survived and would have quit the ministry long time ago. God gets all the glory for the effective ministry He has given, and it was all prophesied over me 28 years ago, and God has been faithful. The power of God that comes in the meetings has been a threat to the men as well as my husband, and anytime a woman is used mightily in leadership and in ministry in leadership it is a hard a pill to swallow. But if you read correctly, now the men (pastors)are accepting the leadership God has called me to there and now allowing their pople to come to the schools. No where in scripture does it say and I have not found it in the past 20 years that I have been teaching the word and discipling the nations have I found that it say that mothers are not meant to lead nations. I am married to an African, and my sister in law has been in government in the country I serve and has done a wonderful job, I am told by many that I am a wonderful Pastor, in fact God gave me the grace to Pastor alone while my husband traveled all over the nation to evangelize from 2001 to 2005 and the Church had great unity in the leadership and things were doing very wel until he decided to come and be more available in the church instead of evangelizing. Since then, I stepped back to do more of the prophet ministry I am called to do, but the church has not done as well. I have studied many successful women in leadership and I have not seen that. That is the same spirit you have that is found in Luke 7:36 the woman taht was outcast by the religous men, but she was the onnly one that worship Jesus, not the religious men and what about the John 4, this woman ended up evangelizing her entire village, what about Deborah and so many other women who lead in great ways. I think we worry to much about what others are doing, instead of focusing on what one should be personally doing, which is the great commission and this is to go and make disciples of all nations. God has enabled me to disciple thousands of people and there is nothing greater in the Christian life than discipling, this is what brings us into wholeness or soundness of mind and body and spirit. One thing I preach alot is we need to discern what each person in the body of Chirst (I Corinthians 11:27-32). we all have our place and our messages that God has given us just like Joel and Paul. But as a prophet, I have to operate in a spirit of love as the Bible requires me to do. I chose not to speak the truth in anger but to speak in love. I do not know how long Paul has been in minitry, But I am speaking from expereince Eric, I found that when I got over the anger I felt, then I was able to reach more and not isolate others because of anger, In other words the message was better recieved. I have to agree with others (fruilful, expereinced ministers) who heard Paul’s message, while in my home, we did not hear righteous ander we just heard anger. God bless you!!!!

Comment by Kathy | August 19, 2009
Kathy , Bruce Lee died very young and his use of violence as I saw the expressions of his face in a trailer, was that he almost enjoyed to kill people and to destroy heads , it was scary to me. Paul is like a purring pussycat compared with Bruce Lee’s anger. Today I heard a sermon of Joel about leaving a legacy in others, by spending time with them, letting them benefit of your knowledge. Not one time he made a reference that we have the legacy of the Word of God, which is eternal, to sow in people’s life, not one time he made a reference of the cross and the narrow road, about selfdenial, and in the end he closes to make Jesus the Lord of your life. If he did not preach Jesus, and Him crucified, if he did not speak about the death at the cross and the life out of the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, how can people make a Jesus that is not preached to them Lord of their lives? Isn’t he making another Jesus lord of their lives? And if he does that, shouldn’t we not get upset and cry to God to raise men of God , who are full of the Holy Spirit, and who can preach to gospel to a dying world? God bless you

Comment by Eric | August 23, 2009
Kathy, And if I may respond to the women in ministry issue.
We saw that the Queen of Sheba, big chance she was a mother, came to hear the wisdom of King Salomo, and I know of another one, prime mininster Golda Meir, who served the country and government of Israel. So there were some mothers leading in the past. Deborah by the way, was not portrayed as a deliverer as were other judges, she was the one that remineded Barak God spoke to him to fulfill that office, and he refused to obey, and even when Deborah spoke to Hom what God commanded, he did not want to march without her coming also. But Barak was the leader of the troops, he fought the battle but woman got the honor, and Deborah prophesied and there appeared what she was, a prophetess and a mother in Israel.

Now the Holy Spirit showed me 1 Timothy 2 on this matter, in verse one is the command about the prayer life and intercessions, and then in verse 8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. This reminded me later on Moses with his lifted hands, and this speaks of the rod of authority in his hands, while the hands were lifted the battle was going well, when the hands were down, the battles was going downhill.
With this verse I am adressed, and all other man, we need to grow up faster.

Then he adresses in verse 9 and further the other half of the adults in the congregation, Kathy, including you, you are not one of the man, you are one of the women. If you can see that, than we are done, if you cant see that you have to ask the Lord, and ask Him. And after that aks why the 12 apostles were men, why the 7 deacons were men, why the elders and deacons had to be men. And if the women mentioned in 1 Tim 3,11 were female deaconesses, why is not mentioned that they had to be tested, why is not mentioned for them they had to be apt to teach? Because they were serving the congregation without teaching, without being leaders. They were serving the churches like Phoebe in Kenchrea, and like all the women that were standing with Paul to support him. Does your 20 years of ministry confirm the scriptures of deviate from the scriptures? I am sure God has spoken in the scriptures and that in the first hundreds of years no woman was ever allowed to be a teacher of men, or a leader , pastor. Why it happens now is because of the fact that there are not enough godly man, disciples of Jesus Christ, able to lead congregations. And if those man will stand up,
and teach whole congregations to stand in all the council of God, persecution will start immediately, as it is written: All those who want to live godly lives will be persecuted. God bless you sister.

Comment by Eric | August 23, 2009
Sorry Eric, I wanted to respond to your email, but I am not on a secured wireless internet service and it seems some bad virus want to get in my laptop. I will go the library sometime and respond to you before I leave for Africa Oct. 1st. The Bruce Lee things is just that, coming against the devil and seeing people get free from witchcraft and all the demons it brings on people. Many people have been free from devils through the ministry God gave me to do. I have seen God do many many many things through the deliverance ministry He has given me to do. That is what the Africa people mean by Bruce Lee in the Spiirt. God has made me very effective in this and in Teaching His Word and see people healed and delivered. It is not a murderous spirit as you are supposing. I will write soon. God bless! Kathy

Comment by Kathy | August 31, 2009
This was truth preached and some worry about if Paul Washer was angry or not ! We should love what God loves and hate what he hates ! If you are one that can not receive the truth of Gods word because of you feelings and emotions then you should go somewhere where the truth is not being preached ! If you can only receive the word when the preacher is smiling and laughing then you are in trouble ! Sometimes truth hurts but it does not diminish the fact that it is still true! We just need to get over this touchy and my feelings are hurt preaching !!!!! Jesus himself sometimes preached hard !!!! God does not have wimps in his Kingdom !!!!! Look at the life of the Apostles.The truth of the matter is if someone is headed to a hell where there are no exist and they will spend eternity ( forever ) there what dos it matter if their feelings was hurt or not ! I would rather tell you the truth and your feelings get hurt then to see you go to hell !Besides Jesus says my sheep hear my voice and a stranger they will not follow ! If you are really seeking the truth of God then it does not matter if the preacher looked happy or sad !!!!! God bless Paul, we need more men like that , that will stand in the Kings face and preach repentance and to let Gods people go !

Comment by Bryann | September 1, 2009
I like Paul Washer and John Bevere. It does seem as though the church as a whole likes the feel good message, but there is the command “be yea holy as I am holy”. We are not at this point the glorious church without spot or wrinkle. While it is totally dependent on what Jesus did, we cannot make it an excuse to live as heathens.

Comment by cora | September 18, 2009
This is truth! Be on guard, Satan is the best at lying and he TRY TO MANIPULATE the minds of men to corrupt scripture! Paul Washer preach on!

Comment by anotherchristian | October 10, 2009
Those who are in Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh WITH ITS PASSIONS AND DESIRES! Gal 5:22-24 The mark of true christians is to “die daily” to christ, NOT THE ACT… BUT THE DESIRE OF HEART!!!!!!!

Comment by anotherchristian | October 10, 2009
To take just this portion of the sermon really does take it out of context. Paul was making the point that the evidence of someone being saved is that they bear fruit. Just because someone “gave their hearts to Jesus” years ago doesn’t mean that they are saved. He is making a distinction between what the Christian pop culture teaches versus what the bible SAYS.

I would also caution against using words like “anger” and “mean” to justify your position. Why not words like passionate and truthful? Could it be that deep down inside your own insecurities and conviction troubles you because of what Paul is saying?

How much of what Jesus said in the bible could be characterized as “mean”? Something to think about.

Remember too that Jesus came the first time because of the dysfunctional church, and my bet is he isn’t real happy with the organized pop religions of our time either.
Be not deceived.

Comment by GT | October 13, 2009
I work in a jail. Many drug dealers, murderers, etc. etc. believe that they are saved. How can you witness to someone that already falsely think that they are saved. I ask “do you love the Lord?” I get a blank stare and a “what’s that got to do with it?” Where is the repentance? The conviction of sin? Washer is RIGHT ON!!!

Comment by r webster | October 26, 2009
Quite a bit of foolishness posted on this thread. The ones calling Washer a false teacher, prophet or preaching a false gospel are themselves deceivers, liars and promoting a false gospel–the false gospel taught by antinomains, and are usually found in Dispensational-Baptist circles. That is why men like H.A. Ironside and John Rice were quoted.

These men teach you can “receive” Christ as Savior, but not Lord, and be saved. GARBAGE. Paul taught we must confess Christ as LORD to be saved–Rom 10:9. Christ said you must DENY YOURSELF, TAKE UP YOUR CROSS, AND FOLLOW HIM. And he added that if you cannot DO that, you cannot be His disciple. He added that if you sake to save your life, you will lose it, but if you lose it for His sake and the Gospel’s, you will save it.

That is what it means to “believe” or have “faith” in Him–to repent and FOLLOW HIM.

Unfortunately, Dispensationalists are good when it comes to Eschatology, but horrible and sometimes HERETICAL when it comes to Soteriology.

If you are not willing for forsake EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE for Christ, you DO NOT BELIEVE, you DO NOT HAVE FAITH, according to the Bible.

To Believe in HIm means to make Him NUMBER ONE IN YOUR LIFE.

Today’s “gospel” is false. Washer and many others seek to return us to what Spurgeon, Finney, Edwards, Torrey, Moody, Earle, Booth, Wesley, Whitefield, and all those like them preached. They ALL PREACHED “Lordship” salvation. Period. God bless.

Comment by Providential1611 | November 3, 2009
Re-Paul Washer:

I have just spent a weekend in Dublin Ireland at a conference where Paul Washer was speaking amongst others.

Few points:
1. No collections, No love gifts, no promotion of books except one and it wasn’t by him. It was on a stand down the back and was hardly mentioned.

2. The conference was free and he and others came at their own expense.

3. as far as Lordship salvation goes, in the sense that he is supposed to preach that you must repent of your sins to be saved, he said he sins himself (present tense) and said his goal was to be continually transformed to become like Jesus.

4.(personal opinion) By the time he finished speaking, EACH time, I felt more in awe of God and more in love towards Jesus then I did before listening to him. The kindness and grace and mercy of God was only magnified all the more and in an amazing wonderful way, by his magnifying of God’s holiness righteousness powerfulness holy hatred of sin and his ability and right to utterly destroy us all.

His depiction of the wicknedness and sinfulness of mans heart made Gods mercy towards me all the more amazing.

I came away WISHING!! I had heard preaching like this years ago.

One more thing. As I sat there and listened to him I thought to myself about the WOF and prosperity teachers ” You are in SERIOUS trouble”. And may I say he didn’t go on about them or mention them by name…he didn’t have to, the thoughts just came naturally and in seriousness.

Greg.

People have judged him somewhat on the video above, so maybe have a look at this for a different viewpoint of the man.

A Conversation with Paul Washer
16 min – 5 Nov 2008
http://www.youtube.com

Comment by Greg. | November 16, 2009
Greg,

I have posted the conversation with Paul Washer on this and other threads. There is also a video of him explaining the background behind his ’shocking youth sermon’ for which he’s most widely known. He is an amazing preacher, who speaks truth, at the expense of popularity. I saw the webcast from Dublin on Friday night and a little on Saturday. I am of to Wales tomorrow for the Revival Conference there. Looking forward to hearing all the speakers! Will report back here later this week.

Ps Jan! If you’re still going to Lougher: fyi my friend now has black/orange hair!lol

Comment by Elizabeth A | November 16, 2009
This thread SUPPOSED to be about my brother Joel Osteen!
Anways …. to karen justinn | May 21, 2009 ….thanks for your kind words. I have a MA in Theo. so I have heard tons of ivory tower eruditic spoutings. My last prof was supposed to have been Eugene Petersen (Regent College) the author of the heretical “Message Bible” which is evil.
I couldn’t stomach it anymore so I went into secular work!

—-

anyways,I like Joel bc he encourages me to seek God no matter what.

And “amillenialism” simply means: A-without + millenium – 1000 yrs. w/o 1000 yrs which is heresy.

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | November 16, 2009

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End Times Visions and Christian prophecy for the church and for the nations from a servant of God called to speak God’s word, bringing prophecies and prophetic words of revelation, warning of End Times apostasy and lukewarm Christianity, and trying to bring people’s hearts, minds and souls back to the Lord their God. For statement of faith see here.

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