Let’s Talk About The Millenium « End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

Let’s Talk About The Millenium

This started on the Paul Washer thread, but let’s talk about this here – what do people think about this – what does the Bible say about the Millenium, when it will happen (or whether it has happened or is happening), even IF it will happen? Is it literal or symbolical?

The theological terms for the various beliefs surrounding this include -

Premillenialism
Amillenialism
and Postmillenialism

I know some people’s brains go into a fuzz just reading these words and they switch off immediately as it already seems too complicated for their understanding – when it needn’t be. Therefore, for the sake of others reading here, I would ask any people posting what they believe the Bible says on this to be as clear as possible in as simple speech as possible, ideally not using long complicated words when and where they can be avoided. Thanks!

May 19, 2009 - Posted by endtimespropheticwords | End Times Eschatology, Prophecy | bible, christianity, end times, religion, theology | 263 Comments

263 Comments »

I’m going to suggest something radical – does this really matter? I think few people would see it as a test of orthodoxy.

Views on the end-times (a branch of theology known as eschatology) are like the Calvinism/Arminianism debate. They have been debated over by Christians for centuries, and there is still a diversity of views.

There are numerous ways in which the biblical texts on this subject can be interpreted, and my main concern is when people start putting forward their own position as the only valid option, rather than saying that it is one view amongst many. I would likewise caution against focussing on this when there are so many other areas where the bible is clear.

Comment by anon | May 19, 2009
A period of time, 1000 years, that Jesus Himself will rule and reign here on the Earth, followed by a second great rebellion, and ending at “the Great White Throne judgment, where the Lake of fire will become the eternal home for many, and New Jerusalem the Eternal Home for all of the children of God.

It appears that the fabric of the universe will be altered here, and people will be allowed life to great ages…and things like carnivores will disappear, very much like the Garden of Adam and Eve….but not entirely…for sin must exist as there is a massive rebellion later.

Rev: 20 is the loadstone here.

Millennial= 1000 years. from Latin..mill = 1000
anum=year

Pre millinialism= it’s already happened, or we’re in it now. This is centered around the rapture and that EVENT.

Post millinialism= It will happen when Jesus returns, and is far and wide the most popular view, and I believe the most scriptural..[ have you seen many lions and lambs playing together lately, or 120 year old children? ]

A-millenialism= It’s never going to happen.The passages that imply it will, are just symbolic and a type of Heaven’s life.

Well, my take on it is it’s nice to ponder God’s glory, but wishing for or defining Prophetic events does not mean that you participate in them. If you fall away in the soon coming great tribulation, it is all but a moot point and interesting revelation, and Yes!..the redeemed will participate in Ruling and reigning with Jesus for 1000 years…but getting there is the key.

We must learn how to Love! We must bear the fruit of a holy life to gain any of Christs rewards and honor…and this may come as a shock to some, but faith does not exist in the grey matter between your ears, or your perceptions of the future.

“He that endures unto the END, the same shall be saved.”

Comment by Thomas Watkins | May 19, 2009
I think it’s important what a believer believes about the millennium because false doctrines of the millennium have become the very foundation of DOMINIONISM!

There is a growing body of believers that has resurrected the postmillennial position that teaches the Church will first take dominion of the earth and reign for 1000 years BEFORE Christ returns. Rushdooney has started a movement called ‘Reconstructionism’ that sees the church ruling for 1000 years. NAR is also teaching that God is instituting His govenment on the earth through His last day apostles. It seems they have imbibed postmillennialism.

The Catholic Church teaches that God will one day make it clear that He will reign on earth through the Pope until the world is Christianized. We can see the same thinking in any movement that believes the church is to take over the political realm. It has dominionism at its roots.

The premillennial position is not too much better. This position teaches that Jesus will come again and reign from a throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years. This position also teaches a form of dominionism since it teaches that certain ones will rule with Christ as His government on earth.

Few stop to think about what that means. Will immortal humans (the saved) live among mortal humans? While the redeemed live for the whole 1000 years will those not saved die? I mean can someone explain to me what exactly is going on during this future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth? What is the purpose? Iow, why does God continue the conflict between Himself and the devil for another 1000 years?

And seeing Jesus return according to prophecy, how can those still alive on earth not bow and put their faith in Him?

How can MOST of the world be deceived after the 1000 years when they have had the wonderful loving most kind and gentle King Jesus leading humanity?

You see, I have a lot of questions about this supposed 1000 rule millennium. Do the wicked get raised before the millennium or wait till after the 1000 years? When the mortals see the righteous have been raised, won’t that bring conversion?

If there are unbelieving mortals living on the earth during His reign do they have a chance to be saved and become immortal?

Does Jesus return and then rule over this world as it is or does He make it perfect first? It seems the nations still exist during the 1000 years so do we go about and clean up the pollution and mess or do we wait until Jesus creates a new heaven and new earth after the 1000 years?

According to premillennialism there will still be nations for Satan is said to go to all the nations to deceive them and assemble them for the battle? So does this mean there will still be nationalities and Jews and Gentiles? How can Gog and Magog still exist as Christ rules from His throne? Are these unbelievers forced to behave? Will there be sin? Punishment?

I have more questions but these will do. NARzies who are premillennial, believe that they will be part of Jesus’ government as He rules from Jerusalem. It is all part of the dominionist teaching that God is establishing His government NOW.

What is strange is that nothing is mentioned about this in the rest of the NT. On the contrary, when we read for instance 1Cor. 15, Paul tells us that when the last trumpet will sound the dead are raised and that the last enemy is destroyed which is death. If death is destroyed at the last trumpet, how can exist after that?

Also Peter in his second letter teaches that “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” (3:10) Isn’t Peter talking about the return of Jesus in the clouds when He returns as a thief and not reigning first for 1000 years? If the elements melt with fervent heat at this coming as a thief, how can the nations and gog and magog still be able to exist?

I was premillennial for 25 years and saw the light about 7 years ago. It was a very hard switch to make but I’m convicted that Christ is reigning now and when He returns there will be a great judgment and a new heavens and earth and there will not be any more time…as the angel declares in Revelation 10 – “When the seventh angel sounds there will be no more time.”

Also when the seven bowls of God’s wrath are poured out we’re told that the wrath of God is finished (16:2). If the wrath of God is completed when He pours out His bowls of judgment on the wicked, how do you explain His judgment being poured out at the end of the 1000 years?

Anyway, it takes time to rethink and restudy these things. I believe the amillennial position best takes into account ALL the NT tells us about His return and what happens when He returns.

Again I think this online study will help anyone willing to be open to the Spirit showing them the things to come:

But again, it is false ideas of the millennium that stokes the doctrine of dominionism in Catholicism, Protestantism and Pentecostalism. http://www.gospeltruth.net/millenniumisnotflethcer.htm

Comment by BB | May 19, 2009
I think what our focus should be,

Preach the Gospel!

In all places, at all times.

Jesus will return, and people need to be saved to be part of his Kingdom!

God bless

Comment by Truthseeker | May 19, 2009
I agree with you, Anon. There is a lost world out there who are far more important to bring the hope, love & light of Jesus to, rather than labelling ourselves & each other with terms that are meaningless to the lost. Jesus WILL return & I trust Him to do it in the best way—His way!

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 19, 2009
brave anonymous

1. “numerous ways the biblical texts can be interpreted.”

uh, no. Actually that is FORBIDDEN.

In 2 Peter
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

no private interpretation
no private interpretation
no private interpretation

Get it? It’s GOD’S WORD – not some egghead cleric.

That is why the plain scriptures are disobeyed: women cropping their hair, bossing men.
Men wearing earings and long hair. Singing effeminate little love songs.
Both all tattooed silly.

Satan has 100% infiltrated the church universal with his own.

That is why the word does not get preached – the only way to salvation.

francis of a-sissy (OR IS IT “ASS-issy”] coined it

“preach the “gospel” w/o words”

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | May 19, 2009
I kind of agree with Anon, questions about how one is brought into God’s family and our reconciliation after sin seem far more important. Furthermore, we live with the recognition that tonight just might be the World’s last night, and when the curtain falls we’ll be judged on the roll we’ve played.

That said, I believe the millennium is symbolic of the age of the Church (is that the amillenialism one?). Scripture would seem to indicate that when Christ comes again the heavens will roll up, we’ll be judged (or raised and judged) and then a new earth will be created. Outside of the few verses on the millenium, there is no indication that he’ll kinda pop in and out multiple times. And since those verses fall within the context of a highly symbolic book, it would seem to indicate the symbolic nature of that as well.

Comment by Christina | May 19, 2009
The Catholic Church teaches that God will one day make it clear that He will reign on earth through the Pope until the world is Christianized.

It sounds like you’re saying that the Catholic Church teaches that it will be an empire (with the pope at head), when actually BB the Catholics don’t really address the millennium.

I think when pinned down she’ll define the millennium as the reign of Christ in the Church kind of along the lines of the rest of your post (not a kingdom of this world kind of thing). But generally it’s not that big of a teaching at all.

Comment by Christina | May 19, 2009
no private interpretation

Out of morbid curiosity, how do you define private and public interpretation?

Comment by Christina | May 19, 2009
Whoa Lawrence:

We are called to study the scriptures to show ourselves approved, and as we do so we all will in one way or the other interpret a passage of scripture or prophesy different than someone else. That is when we stop and pray asking God to give us the interpretation He wants for us to receive out of it. Just my thoughts, as to your latter comments…

“That is why the plain scriptures are disobeyed: women cropping their hair, bossing men. Men wearing earings and long hair. Singing effeminate little love songs.
Both all tattooed silly.”

Those judgementalized and pharasidic (pardon my spelling) remarks are part of what is wrong with the church. In light of those statements, it mutes any good points made. If we are to hold to those levitical codes then there was no need for Christ’s death on the Cross. Using that same plumb line, then all who are uncircumcised will not inherit eternal life. The fact was then and is now, the Law could not save anyone. Only Christ’s death on the Cross, perfecting the true essence of the law, allowed us to inherit what God has for us. Your broadcasting condemnation on a multitude where there is now no condemnation. Christ came to fulfill the Law because we could not. While no jot or tittle will be removed from the Law, it is summed up in loving God and loving each other.

Not to mention it has absolutely nothing to do with this specific thread. Just a broad stroke painting of your belief. God does not care about our hair, tattoos, earrings etc.. He cares about our heart, the inward not the outward appearance, but I should note that our body is a temple of the Spirit and anything we do outwardly should not be a stumbling block to others.

…As to the thread, while I think that this is a fascinating subject, I have to take the position that this is not something that determines nor defines our salvation and in the end we will all know for sure, to speculate on these types of issues can create discord and divisions within the body of believers. Which is partly the reason for the vast amount of denominations and church splits etc..

Build up and edify others, chastise and correct if needed, but do it all in love. To an outsider or a nonbeliever these types of arguments and conversations can have a negative effect on whether they come to know Christ. Because it is easy for them to see the argumentative nature and say we are no better than anyone else, because there is no unity. These discussions if they are to be had, should be solely debated within the body of believers. Not out where everyone can see something that they can mistake as “hypocrisy” or “not having our act together”.

Comment by Adam | May 19, 2009
Postmillenianism.

Comment by paul | May 19, 2009
I’m glad this subject has come up and will look forward to learning more from the comments. A few weeks ago I left a comment on Sola Dei Gloria concerning my lack of understanding about such things and a very kind man recommended a book A case for Amillennialism by Kim Riddlebarger which I am about a third of the way through. I am still learning (slowly) and trying to formulate my own views. I agree wholeheartedly with BB’s assertion that it is important to try to tackle such issues. It does matter. Thank you for your comment. Unless we understand the theology behind what is being spoken by NAR and other deceptions then we will not be in a position to argue coherently against them or indeed fully understand what is really being said. That is not to say that it is for everyone but surely most people who visit here are the sort of people who have searching and enquiring minds and are called to be discerning.

Comment by jan(2) | May 19, 2009
I’m with BB, and he/she said it so well, I don’t have much to add.

I started out premillenial, then after studying all the positions, and studying the Bible for myself, came to rest somewhere in the amillenial camp. I don’t profess to know all things about the subject, but since going in that direction, the end time prophecy makes more sense to me now when I read it.

I also agree with BB that end times beliefs do affect behavior, thus they are important. A belief that Christians must take over the physical world or that we will have a second chance to repent AFTER the rapture…these beliefs can lead to behaviors which are dangerous.

That said, I don’t insist anyone agree with my views on the end times. Each of us is responsible to study to show ourselves approved, and God will give His true children enough information to help them escape the wrath to come.

God bless you all.

Comment by Melissa | May 19, 2009
Revelation 19 through to 21 describe a sequence of events. Only ONE of those events is commonly ripped from that sequential context and turned into something totally different to what is clearly described.

“Coincidentally” that event includes the removal of Satan and his influence from this earth for a period of 1000 years in which he can no longer deceive the nations.

It is also a period in which the Lord Jesus Christ rules on this earth along with His saints.

Now who (currently) on earth would want this truth hidden? Oh yes – maybe the one who doesn’t like to be reminded that his days of influence are numbered.

Why don’t we stick with what the Bible CLEARLY says instead of turning to man’s vain interpretations.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Satan’s Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In the sequence of events this comes immediately after the return of Jesus and immediately before the Great White throne judgement.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009
Anon,

That was so well said.
I often think of the Jews to whom Jesus said that if they KNEW the scriptures, they would have known of the day of his coming.
But (and I have little if any understanding of this) just a surface observation…. what they DID know, they missed, because they lived the letter of the law, andthought they had it all right, and they completely missed him when he went and did the complete opposite to what they thought the Messiah would do….even to the point of attacking him verbally, and saying he had demons (althought they didn;t call him the anti-christ) that would sign a treaty…Hmm

I appreciated your opener Miriam, ans that is exactly me, and then anon went and put the icing on the cake….

Comment by Paula | May 19, 2009
Scripture would seem to indicate that when Christ comes again the heavens will roll up, we’ll be judged (or raised and judged) and then a new earth will be created. Outside of the few verses on the millenium, there is no indication that he’ll kinda pop in and out multiple times. And since those verses fall within the context of a highly symbolic book, it would seem to indicate the symbolic nature of that as well.

Comment by Christina | May 19, 2009
——–
I suggest you read the sequence of events in Revelation that puts the Millennium into its correct time.

And NOWHERE does any Biblical teaching regarding the Millennium have Jesus “kinda” popping “in and out multiple times”. He will be ruling on earth during that period.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009
Onesimus: Instead of calling amillennial a vain teaching of men, you try to learn something about what your brothers and sisters believe. The book mentioned by Jan2 “The Case for Amillennialism” by Kim Riddlebarger would be a good start. I doubt you’ve taken a serious look at the position.

If you really want to do some exegesis, take your Bible and sit down for an hour and study this link out. There is no way the mention of gog and magog in Rev. 20:7-10 is 1000 years after Christ’s return.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/WhiteFowlerRecapitulationRev19.htm

This argument has not been answered exegetically and answers your contention that the events are sequential.

I do want to say that I love all the brethren who love our Lord and long and look for His coming whether we come to agreement on this matter or not.

Christina: I read Malachi Martin’s “Keys of This Blood” and Pope John Paul II was looking for the appearance of Mary to confirm him as Christ’s Vicar on earth and ruler of the nations. Pope Benedict doesn’t seem to have the same geopolitical ambitions, but who knows his eschatology.

Comment by BB | May 19, 2009
BB asked many questions. Firstly I suggest that he go to the scriptures because many of those questions are CLEARLY answered in the text of scripture.

“Will immortal humans (the saved) live among mortal humans?”

Since the saved are changed at Jesus’ return and since the scriptures (not some form of premillennial dominionism doctrine) states clearly that the saints will rule with Him during the millennium it certainly seems that immortal humans will live among the remaining mortal humans who were unbelievers at the time of Jesus’ return
——-
“While the redeemed live for the whole 1000 years will those not saved die?”

Yes there will be death during the millennium. Isaiah speaks of lives being extended at that time, but that sinner’s lives will be shortened. So there will also be sin in the earth during that time.
———
“I mean can someone explain to me what exactly is going on during this future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth?”

Christ is ruling over the earth in justice. Life is going on in a world that is totally just. There are many descriptions of this period scattered throughout scripture, in particular throughout the OT prophets.
——–
“What is the purpose?”
Speculation alert: maybe it’s merely to show humanity what life can be like when true justice is applied (and also that it’s NOT the devil making us do it – that mankind has ultimate responsibility to for his own actions. With the devil out of the way he can’t be blamed for our sin).
————
“Why does God continue the conflict between Himself and the devil for another 1000 years?”

He doesn’t. The devil is out of the way for those 1000 years. There is no conflict with the devil. The devil is released at the end of that time for a brief period. Again there is no conflict – when God determines that enough is enough, the devil is thrown into the Lake of fire.
The idea of conflict gives the impression of God struggling with the devil. There is no struggle. Satan is dealt with when and how God determines. Note that Satan’s imprisonment at the beginning of the 1000 years is carried out by an angel. God doesn’t even need to do that Himself. He sends a servant to do it.
————-
“And seeing Jesus return according to prophecy, how can those still alive on earth not bow and put their faith in Him?”

1) Because mankind is rebellious and sinful.
2) Who says that the majority still alive on earth don’t immediately do that but later when complacency takes over they slip back to their old ways.
3) Those generations born during the Millennium have no prior knowledge of what the world was like prior to the rule of Jesus and will be ruled by the same passions that have affected mankind throughout history.
————–

“How can MOST of the world be deceived after the 1000 years when they have had the wonderful loving most kind and gentle King Jesus leading humanity?”

Because mankind is sinful and selfish and doesn’t like being told what to do, even when it is in their best interests.
Judas lived with Jesus for three years. He saw the miracles and heard the teaching, yet he remained a thief and later betrayed Jesus.
——–
“You see, I have a lot of questions about this supposed 1000 rule millennium. Do the wicked get raised before the millennium or wait till after the 1000 years?”

Now that IS a question that is SPECIFICALLY and clearly answered in scripture. Read the sequence of events from Rev 19 onwards, and for the sake of this exercise assume that the millennium is exactly where scripture places it – in between the return of Jesus and the great white throne judgment.
———-
“When the mortals see the righteous have been raised, won’t that bring conversion?”

Not necessarily.
———–

“If there are unbelieving mortals living on the earth during His reign do they have a chance to be saved and become immortal?”

I’m not aware that scripture makes this clear – but that does not nullify the reality of a literal 1000 year reign.
———–
“Does Jesus return and then rule over this world as it is or does He make it perfect first?”

He starts ruling it as it is – I suppose that is why swords have to be beaten into ploughshares and spears into pruning hooks (which scripture describes as happening when the Lord rules in Zion – as He does in the Millennium!)
———–
“It seems the nations still exist during the 1000 years so do we go about and clean up the pollution and mess or do we wait until Jesus creates a new heaven and new earth after the 1000 years?”

People still have to live here for that 1000 years so I assume the earth’s mess is progressively cleaned up.
———-
“According to premillennialism there will still be nations for Satan is said to go to all the nations to deceive them and assemble them for the battle? So does this mean there will still be nationalities and Jews and Gentiles?”

I assume so since that is what the scripture says.
————-
“How can Gog and Magog still exist as Christ rules from His throne? Are these unbelievers forced to behave? Will there be sin? Punishment? “

Unbelievers/sinners will go their own way as usual but will face justice from the one who rules in justice. Yes here will be sin on earth – and the sinner’s lives will be shorter than they would have been if they had not continued in sin. (Search the scriptures in Isaiah). If sin is dealt with justly there will be punishment.
——————

Now I have to ask – why try to discount the clear scriptural account of the millennium through so many questions. If none of those questions could be answered would that nullify what scripture says? Would unanswered questions have more authority than Scripture? If scripture says something happens – does the truth of scripture depend upon our ability to work out all of the intricacies of that forecast event?

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009
BB
I don’t need to see what other people believe and consider their arguments when scripture is TOTALLY clear. In fact scripture could not be clearer on this matter. Go to the scriptures alone and stop trying to rationalise everything away according to the arguments of man.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009
To Anon
It is no coincidence that the book of Revelation is part of the Holy Canon.If one acknowledges Gods sovereignty and believes that the bible is His inspired word then Revelation is no less a part of this than any other book of the bible.However , it is obvious that the study of eschatology does sometimes take preceedence over other important biblical doctrine and i have been guilty of this in the past.Having said this though , i believe that an understanding of the events surrounding Christs return should be a part of every believers field of study.In Revelation 1:3 we read “Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near”.
Idon’t want to ramble on here regarding my view on eschatology, that can be found elsewhere on this site , but i would like to share a few thoughts with those who are prepared to study this topic seriously.
If you are prepared to study this subject , then start with an open mind and ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding.We can argue back and forth our points of view , but only the Holy spirit can guide us into all truth.
Learn to understand the symbols and use of numbers in prophecy, if you can get a grip on this ,you are halfway towards understanding what is written.
Many people make the mistake of trying to fit prophecy into the current geo-political landscape. This is a huge mistake, for the word of God stands on its own.It is most important to allow scripture to lead us , not the other way around ie we lead scripture. Just a quick example, i too was indoctrinated into the premillenialist school of thought and i recall a rather zealous proponent of this telling me that the beast mentioned in Rev 13 that had 10 horns was in fact symbolic of the European Union, which at that time had 8 member states.Well that number grew to 10 and nothing happened, except that he was left with the proverbial egg on his face.This is just one example of unbiblical exegesis and no doubt there are many more.
Last but in no way least ,there is only one true interpretation of these events , and that is Gods interpretation.God is not the author of confusion and where there is confusion it is mans doing.I fully believe that it is Gods desire for us to understand the times that we are in and not be ignorant of them.
Having a biblical understanding of the time in which we live is a revelation ,every day is one day closer to His return and i believe that is very close.

Comment by ray | May 20, 2009
///BB asked many questions. Firstly I suggest that he go to the scriptures because many of those questions are CLEARLY answered in the text of scripture.///

I will gladly go to the Scriptures Onesimus….gladly. I only post links for those desiring deeper study, but I know you don’t read men’s thoughts or writings…..or do you? …..thought so.

I’m going to address your answers one at a time if that’s ok brother.

///“Will immortal humans (the saved) live among mortal humans?”

Since the saved are changed at Jesus’ return and since the scriptures (not some form of premillennial dominionism doctrine) states clearly that the saints will rule with Him during the millennium it certainly seems that immortal humans will live among the remaining mortal humans who were unbelievers at the time of Jesus’ return.///

It “seems”??? It “seems”? There is no certainty there. That sounds like you aren’t quite sure Onesimus. If it were Scripture you wouldn’t be saying “it seems”.

What is clear is that this belief in a millennium on earth after Jesus returns requires immortals to live among unbelievers. What this teaches is that unbelievers will have a second chance doesn’t it? Sorry, but the Scriptures teach that “TODAY is the day of salvation.”

There will be no second chance once Jesus returns, since the Day of Atonement ministry of pleading His blood will be over. As High Priest, He is interceding NOW for those confessing their sins. There will be no sacrifice for sins once the High Priest leaves the Holy of Holies (Heaven) and returns. As the Jesus teaches, “Let him who is filthy be filthy still, and let him who is righteous be righteous still…”

There can be no repentance once Jesus leaves His intercession above, so why are mortal unbelievers still around since there is no hope of being saved? And furthemore the parables teach that when the judgment occurs the wicked are bundled up to be burned.

Comment by BB | May 20, 2009
Onesimus
Your rubuttal of questions posed by BB are a litany of confusion and assumption.The questions put forward are valid ones and they are without biblical answers. For instance you say that satan is removed for the 1000 years and there is no conflict with the devil and yet in your answer to the next question you say that mankind is rebellious and sinful, how is this possible. If you want to pursue the notion of an eartly reign of Christ you are going to have to put up some very convincing scriptures.

Comment by ray | May 20, 2009
“While the redeemed live for the whole 1000 years will those not saved die?”

Yes there will be death during the millennium. Isaiah speaks of lives being extended at that time, but that sinner’s lives will be shortened. So there will also be sin in the earth during that time.

I’ll need Scripture here Onesimus rather than your thoughts. Thanks.

———
“I mean can someone explain to me what exactly is going on during this future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth?”

Christ is ruling over the earth in justice. Life is going on in a world that is totally just. There are many descriptions of this period scattered throughout scripture, in particular throughout the OT prophets.

Again, I’ll need Scripture here and not your thoughts.

——–
“What is the purpose?”
Speculation alert: maybe it’s merely to show humanity what life can be like when true justice is applied (and also that it’s NOT the devil making us do it – that mankind has ultimate responsibility to for his own actions. With the devil out of the way he can’t be blamed for our sin).

Again YOUR thoughts brother that starts with a “maybe” at that. What is going to keep these unbelievers from raping or murdering or stealing? The threat of death? We have that now and that don’t stop the sinner.

Comment by BB | May 20, 2009
————
“Why does God continue the conflict between Himself and the devil for another 1000 years?”

He doesn’t. The devil is out of the way for those 1000 years. There is no conflict with the devil. The devil is released at the end of that time for a brief period. Again there is no conflict – when God determines that enough is enough, the devil is thrown into the Lake of fire.
The idea of conflict gives the impression of God struggling with the devil. There is no struggle. Satan is dealt with when and how God determines. Note that Satan’s imprisonment at the beginning of the 1000 years is carried out by an angel. God doesn’t even need to do that Himself. He sends a servant to do it.

True, according to premill, the devil is locked up, but that doesn’t mean the conflict is over. At some point he will be released and the conflict rises back up again. Jesus is on the throne and Satan is allowed to go to all the “unbelievers”? I guess. And according to Rev. 20:7-10 Satan is allowed to deceive so many they are as the sand of the sea. After reigning for 1000 years there is only a small camp of the saints as the devil surrounds them.

Are you telling me that believers will be living with a majority of unbelievers? How can sin exist in His holy presence?

Comment by BB | May 20, 2009
“And seeing Jesus return according to prophecy, how can those still alive on earth not bow and put their faith in Him?”

1) Because mankind is rebellious and sinful.
2) Who says that the majority still alive on earth don’t immediately do that but later when complacency takes over they slip back to their old ways.
3) Those generations born during the Millennium have no prior knowledge of what the world was like prior to the rule of Jesus and will be ruled by the same passions that have affected mankind throughout history.

I’m still looking for Scripture. What YOU are telling me is that there will still be rebellion and only comply with Jesus reign out of fear of His justice.

So they slip back into their old sinful ways. Aren’t they sinful the whole time? Where is the Scripture for these thoughts that explain this rebellion at the end of the 1000 years?

So there will also be marriage and birth. Can these new people born during the millennium be saved? But how can they be since the Day of Atonement is over once Jesus as High Priest comes out?

Comment by BB | May 20, 2009
i too was indoctrinated into the premillenialist school of thought and i recall a rather zealous proponent of this telling me that the beast mentioned in Rev 13 that had 10 horns was in fact symbolic of the European Union,

Comment by ray | May 20, 2009

————-

I don’t really know why such speculation about the beast in Rev 13 should be linked to premillenialism (as if this is what premillennialism is about).
Such speculation has more to do with sections of “dispensationalism” as promoted through popular Christian media – such as the Left Behind series (and the much earlier “Late great Planet Earth”).

David Pawson in the talk I linked to on the previous thread describes the major views on the millennium. Each of the views mentioned above by Miriam (“a”, “post” and “pre”) have two common variations.
With Premillennialism Pawson describes “dispensational millennialism” and “historical premillennialism”.
The former originated through the teachings of Darby and was widely promoted through the Scofield Study Bible. The latter was the common belief until the time of Augustine who was the originator of amillenialism/postmillenialism.

See how complicated man’s “wisdom” has made this matter. How well Satan has been able to confuse the church on the matter of his downfall.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
Consider the Lord’s own interpretation of the parable of the tares:

“The harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father,” (Matt. 13:39-43).

Comment by BB | May 20, 2009
Ray said on the Paul Washer thread:
Having studied Rev 20 quite extensively i just want to make a couple of points regarding your previous comment.
In verse 2 it says that Satan was bound for a thousand years, not removed.
——————–

Err Ray, are you reading the same Bible as me?

What does scripture say?

Rev 21: 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and BOUND him for a thousand years. 3He THREW HIM INTO THE ABYSS, and LOCKED and SEALED it over him, TO KEEP HIM FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS ANYMORE until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time

That sounds like a very comprehensive removal to me – bound, thrown into the abyss, which is locked and sealed to prevent him from deceiving the nations for a 1000 years!!!

How extensively have you studied Rev 20?
Maybe its time to stop the study for a time and return to READING the text first and accepting what it actually says.

And when does this happen? Between the return of Jesus (and His defeat of the beast) and the white throne judgment.

As for the questions you raise I think I address most of them in my reply to BB above.

Again its a matter of do you accept and believe scripture or do you try to “rationalise” it away according to man’s theology.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
I am going to make a comment before going back and reading the comments already made in here responding to what you have requested, Miriam.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Mat 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

First to note is this, all my Ministerial Training mentors are dead now. These guys taught on this very subject. One wise mentor, the ruling Pastor of my organization did something during some Ministerial training I was under. He gave several points of view on eschatology. One view was pre, another mid and then the other was post…. .

Each time he taught, you went away believing in that point of view. It simply taught me that if you are a good teacher and are articulate and succinct in teaching a Biblical point of view, one would easily agree with that point of view. I did. Love believes all things.

Now, here is where I am with it all. I use a Greek Word to establish my “current” position “in” Christ on these matters.

Paul the Apostle uses this Greek Word twice in his epistles. He is the only writer to use the word. He uses it at Eph. 2:5 and Col. 2:13.

The Greek Word is:

συζωοποιέω
suzōopoieō
sood-zo-op-oy-eh’-o
From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): – quicken together with.

Now, contrast that Greek Word with this one:

ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh’-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): – make alive, give life, quicken.

I will quote two places zōopoieō is used in 1 Cor. 15.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

and

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

So, how do these two verses “set” the record straight about God’s eschatology? How do these two Greek words, suzōopoieō and zōopoieō prepare us for God’s eschatology?

As you can realize, hopefully, God is the One, Who, by His Own Hand, “conjoins” and “reanimates” us “spiritually” to Christ, suzōopoieō, and when that happens it means you are in His Presence “now” and forever after.

Peter said it this way:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,
1Pe 1:7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith–more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire–may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

As the Holy Ghost and God, Our Heavenly Father, so Jesus is equally the “Life Giving” Spirit we are conjoined to by baptism and by being born again. Either way, we are “made” alive in Christ. They are the Life giving Spirits, These Three in One!

What does this mean in regards to Pre, Mid or Post anything?

God is Eternal. We are born again and conjoined to the Eternal Son by the Will of Our Heavenly Father and we are now guarded by Him in Christ kept for that day of redemption to which we are Called and Elected too.

So, in that sense and in that light, it really does not matter what happens to us, seeing God has already moved us from death into Eternal Life by Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior.

Whatever happens will be by the Hand of God anyway at the time of His choosing and who can stay His Hand when He does anything? Can you?

Comment by michael | May 20, 2009
This is an excellent presentation that clearly shows what the Scriptures actually teach. God bless.

A Present or Future Millennium?

by Kim Riddlebarger

Most American Evangelicals are firmly committed to the idea that an earthly millennial age will begin immediately after our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Advent.

Since premillennialism is so dominant in American church circles, many who encounter historic Protestantism for the first time are quite surprised when they discover that all of the Protestant Reformers and the entire Reformed and Lutheran traditions are amillennial.

Amillennialism is that understanding of eschatology which sees the millennium not as a future golden age as does premillennialism (the age of the church triumphant), but instead as the present course of history between the First and Second Advent’s of our Lord (the age of the church militant).

And indeed, I am sure that there are many readers who will express shock and disappointment upon learning of my own amillennial convictions. But I am convinced, however, that many readers simply do not understand the basic end-times scenario found in the New Testament. Part of the problem is that dispensational premillennial writers have completely dominated Christian media and publishing. There are literally hundreds of books, churches, and parachurch ministries all devoted to taking premillennialism and the “pretribulation” rapture idea to the masses. And so, I can only lament the fact that my own tradition has done so little to produce popular books introducing and defending amillennialism.

It is my guess that many who read this article will have never heard the case for the classical position held by the church regarding the return of Christ and the millennial age.

Another problem encountered when examining this subject is that discussions of it often generate a great deal of heat but not very much light. One local prophecy pundit has quipped that the people in heaven with the lowest IQs will be amillennial. Hal “Late Great” Lindsey goes so far as to label amillennialism as “anti-Semitic,” demonic and heretical.

It is not uncommon to hear prophecy teachers label amillennial Christians as “liberal” or to accuse them of not taking the Bible literally. The result of such diatribes is that American Christians cannot help but be prejudiced by such unfortunate comments, and many simply reject outright (without due consideration of the other side) the eschatology of the Reformers and classical Protestantism-an eschatology that is amazingly simple, biblical, and Christ centered. And so, if you should be in that camp, instead of simply turning me off at this point, please bear with me, hear my case, and then decide for yourself on the basis of Scripture.

Unfortunately, it is all too fashionable to interpret the Bible in light of the morning newspaper and CNN. Yes, it is fun to read the Bible through the filter of every geopolitical crisis that arises in our modern world. This adds relevance to the Bible, we are told. It most assuredly sells thousands and thousands of books and provides for slick programs on Christian TV and radio documenting every move by the European Economic Community, and every possible technological breakthrough that may prepare the way for the coming Mark of the Beast.

These sensational end-times dramas heighten the sense of urgency regarding the coming of our Lord. They supposedly give the church missionary zeal. But however fascinating these schemes may be, I do not believe that they accurately reflect the Biblical data.

There is, in addition, a quite serious side effect produced by this approach to Bible prophecy: The Bible no longer speaks for itself because it is twisted into a pretzel by each of its interpreters, who do their best to show that the upheaval of the nations described in the Book of Revelation has nothing whatsoever to do with the original reader in the first century struggling under Roman persecution, but is instead somehow related to the morning headlines.

How many times can we tell our hearers that Jesus is coming back soon (No, we really mean it this time!) and then tie that message to a passing despot like Saddam Hussein or a tenuous political figure like Mikhail Gorbachev? How do we keep those who need to hear about Christ’s Second Advent the most from becoming increasingly cynical about the message of his coming? But then again this too is a sign of the end, for scoffers will come and say “where is this ‘coming’ he promised?” (2 Pt 3:34)

How tragic that prophecy speculators actually contribute to the very skepticism they themselves acknowledge as a key sign of the end. The classical Protestant tradition has helpful answers to these problems, as it does to many other crises facing the modern Church that, by and large, have been forgotten by today’s Evangelicals.

All of the Protestant Reformers, were they to come back to give us counsel in these areas, would insist that we must start with the notion that Holy Scripture must be allowed to interpret Scripture. In other words, we must inductively develop a biblical model of eschatology by utilizing all of the passages that relate to the return of Christ, the resurrection, the judgement, the millennium, and so on. We should never study eschatology merely by finding Bible verses (often out of context) that we think describe current events.

And so, we begin with the clear declarations of Scripture regarding the coming of our Lord and use them to shed light on passages that are less clear. Following this method, we can clear up many of the bizarre mysteries fabricated by modern prophecy devotees, who insist upon making unclear and difficult passages the standard by which we interpret clear and certain verses.

If this basic hermeneutical principle is followed, we will soon find that we can no longer interpret all of the Bible by the Book of Revelation. Instead, we must read the Book of Revelation through the rest of the Bible.

Historic Protestants would also insist, for example, that Revelation interprets the book of Daniel and not vice versa. The New Testament must be allowed to interpret the Old. There is nothing particularly difficult or profound in this, and following this basic principle of Bible study facilitates a clearer understanding of Bible prophecy.

If we begin with clear passages of Scripture, we can construct a very simple, basic model to help us with the “weirder,” tougher passages.

The “two-age” model

One such approach is known as the “two-age” model. Both Jesus and Paul, for example, speak of “this age” and the “age to come” as distinct eschatological periods of time (Mt 12:32; Lk 18:30; 20:3435; Eph 1:21).

For both our Lord and the apostle, there are two contrasting ages in view. The first age (spoken of as “this age” in the New Testament) is the present period of time before the Second Coming of Christ. The second age, a distinctly future period of time, is referred to as “the age to come.”

When these two ages (“this age” and “the age to come”) are placed in contrast with each other, we are able us to look at the qualities ascribed by the Biblical writers to each in such a way that we can answer questions about the timing of the return of Christ and the nature and timing of the millennium.

When we look at the qualities ascribed to “this age” by the biblical writers, we find that the following are mentioned: “homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields-and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:68); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Ti 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord.

“This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

By marked contrast however, “the age to come” has an entirely different set of qualities ascribed to it: There will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:32); it is preceeded by signs (Mt 24:3); it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tm 6:19).

These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another.

One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

It is also imperative to see that the same contrasts which Jesus and Paul make between these two ages are in turn related to the one event that forever divides them, the return of Christ. This line of demarcation is expressly stated in Scripture.

“The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. . . This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous” (Mt. 13:3949).

These statements are the type of clear and unambiguous texts mentioned earlier. Notice that according to this text judgement occurs immediately at Christ’s return, not after a one-thousand year millennium (as in the premillennial scheme). This is not the only line of Biblical evidence, however, for in addition to this we can find other such statements about the coming of Christ that fit very clearly into the two-age model.

According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously. Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24). Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age.

In addition, Jesus also proclaims that “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48). Notice that the very same event is also said to be the time of judgment for those who reject Christ. Add to these important passages those additional verses that, relate the trumpet of God to the “last day” and to the return of Christ. The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thes 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement.

These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:3146).

Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

Thus, we can conclude that “this age”–the period of time Peter calls the “last days” (Acts 2:17), and which Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress (Mt 24, Mk 13)-ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement on the “last day.” An event that, by the way, Peter describes like the “day of the Lord [which] will come as a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare” (2 Pt 3:10). It is only after this that the age to come will be a present and visible reality.

Notice that the focus is not upon a half-way kingdom and somewhat improved temporal age on the earth. (i.e., a future millennium) Instead the biblical focus is upon the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth! The return of Jesus Christ is the key event in biblical prophecy. For when our Lord Jesus Christ returns, the end of the age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand!

Thus the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straight forward. This enables us to make the following conclusions about the nature of the New Testament’s teaching regarding the return of Christ and the timing of the so-called “millennial age.”

First, the “last days” began with the coming of Christ and will continue until Christ returns (Acts 2:17; Heb 1:2). This period of time, “this age,” is destined to pass away, and is characterized by war, famine, environmental distress, persecution and even the martyrdom of God’s people (Rv 20:46). While there is every likelihood that this distress will increase in the period immediately before the return of Christ, no one knows the day or the hour of our Lord’s return.

Further, Jesus’ birth pain imagery most likely means that we should expect alternating periods of peace and intensifying evil that will cause many to unduly speculate about the imminent return of Christ. These are sharp, stabbing birth pains, but not they are not the birth itself. Therefore, our preoccupation should not be with signs of the end, but instead we must be consumed with the task assigned to the church in the last days: the proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom.

Second, the return of Christ clearly marks an end to the temporal nature of life as we know it- “this present evil age.” At his return, Jesus will raise the believing dead, judge all men, and send the wicked into the fires of Hell. The elements of this Earth burn up and the new heavens and earth will be established. This scenario completely destroys much of contemporary evangelical prophetic speculation, which advocates a “secret” coming of Christ and the “rapture” of believers (and what text can be adduced to argue that Jesus comes back secretly?) a full seven years before the final judgement at Christ’s bodily return. Does Jesus come back once or twice, with one of them being secret? Such speculation is nonsense when viewed in light of the clear gospel texts cited above, which universally describe the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of believers and unbelievers as parts of one event.

This senario also destroys the idea of a future earthly millennial reign of Christ after he returns in judgement. Since this supposed thousand year reign occurs after the eternal destiny of all men and women is forever settled in the judgement, the very thought of Jesus ruling over a world wherein there are still men and women in natural bodies repopulating the Earth is simply not supported by clear texts (remember the one about no marriage?).

If the millennial reign described in Revelation 20 is actually referring to a future period of time, another even more significant problem arises. At the end of the one thousand years, John tells us that there is a great apostasy (a second fall if you will) while Jesus is ruling the nations with the rod of iron (Rv 20:710). This sounds much more like something that would happen in this age, and when viewed against (2 Thes 2:112) an often overlooked parallel passage where a great apostasy occurs before the man of sin is revealed (v. 3), the case for a present millennial age becomes even stronger.

Since there can be no people on earth in natural bodies after the judgment (which occurs when Christ comes back according to the clear texts we have seen above), these apostates can only be those same believers that Jesus raised from the dead at his return. In other words, if premillennialism is correct, then it is glorified saints follow Satan and revolt against Christ!

But are we really to believe that evil is not finally conquered at Christ’s return-even where Jesus is physically reigning and judgement has already occurred? Of course not, and this is self-evidently refuted by the analogy of faith, which expressly tells us that Jesus will destroy all of his enemies and hand the kingdoms of the world over to his Father (1 Cor 15:24) at his second coming.

On closer investigation, we see that the events in Revelation 20 do not take place on the Earth at all, for the thrones described in that passage are in heaven, and not on the Earth. Furthermore, in a book such as Revelation, where numbers are always used symbolically, it makes much more sense to argue that the one thousand years are symbolic of the period of time between the first and second comings of Christ, rather than see them as a literal future period with a second fall during Jesus’ kingly rule after the judgment. Thus the existence of evil and the supposed apostasy of glorified believers in a future millennial age poses a very difficult problem for all forms of premillennialism.

Third, and most importantly, the two-age model places its entire focus upon Jesus Christ and his second coming and not on idle speculation regarding world events.

The eschatological cry of Protestant orthodoxy has always been, “Maranatha Come quickly Lord Jesus!” As with many other things in life the simplest approach may be the best. The two-age model is clear, biblical, and Christ centered. It refuses to allow undue speculation about current events to overturn the clear teaching of Scripture. It is a shame that it has been lost to so many Christians.

Comment by BB | May 20, 2009
For those out there who really want to understand the amillenial position , i suggest you google “progressive parallelism” and read this approach to the interpretation of Revelation. It proposes that Revelation is a series of seven parralel visions with each vision revealing the millenial period from a different angle.This explains why ammillenialists do not concur that Rev 20 is a chronological advancement on Rev 19, with Rev 20 being the start of the last parallel vision.It would appear that most of the contention surrounding eschatology is rooted in one understanding of Rev 20 . I have found that approaching Revelation in this way has been beneficial for me ,and it may do the same for you.

Comment by ray | May 20, 2009
Too confusing.

Comment by j.doe | May 20, 2009
Too confusing.

Comment by j.doe | May 20, 2009
————-

And I’m sure that is satan’s intention. To confuse us about the part of scripture that shows his influence being ended -followed by him being thrown into the lake of fire.

He can’t stop the actual events but he can stop us being aware of them through the promotion of non-biblical theology.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
BB said:

There is no certainty there. That sounds like you aren’t quite sure Onesimus. If it were Scripture you wouldn’t be saying “it seems”.
——–
Yes BB it SEEMS from scripture that this will be the case, but since scripture does not go into specifics on this matter I won’t take it further and say that the whole thing can’t happen because such a scenario wouldn’t fit in with my preconceptions of what should or should not happen.
I have stated where scripture takes the issue and I have made it clear that anything further than that is speculation.

—-

“What this teaches is that unbelievers will have a second chance doesn’t it? Sorry, but the Scriptures teach that “TODAY is the day of salvation.”

No BB it does not teach that.
LIVING unbelievers have one chance of salvation that expires when they die. Any unbeliever still alive at the beginning of the millennium will still have that same chance until death. No second chance.

———-

Ray said:
“For instance you say that satan is removed for the 1000 years and there is no conflict with the devil and yet in your answer to the next question you say that mankind is rebellious and sinful, how is this possible”

Because the devil doesn’t make us do it. The devil is not responsible for our rebellion and our sinfulness, WE are.
Do you think satan is rushing around causing every human beings’ sin here and now? No. So his removal will have no effect on human nature. The difference will be that Jesus Himself rules the nations according to His justice and that the NATIONS are not subject to satans deception. That means that everyone will receive justice during the millennium.

You need scripture? Then search the scriptures Ray instead of turning to men’s theology. Start with the obvious of Revelation 19 onwards. Then see most of the prophets in the OT.
You have a bible don’t you? Why rely on me to give you a handful of proof texts that you would reject anyway? Open your bible and search for yourself. That’s what I had to do and I discovered what SCRIPTURE says instead of what man is saying.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
Kim Riddlegarger states, “According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously. Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24). Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age.”

According to what Scripture? Each Scripture this author cites refers specifically to the those who are redeemed, and none other. On the contrary, Rev. 20 clearly speaks of separate resurrections for the saved as opposed to the lost (the Great White Throne Judgment).

“Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years”(v.6).

There are several other statements that I take issue with, but due to the length of the article in question, I just wanted to address a single item for now.

Just one other thought I’d like to throw out here in reference to the Great Tribulation and The Millenium. Thus far, I have read little or nothing in the postings that address God’s purposes in relation to Israel and the Church. This includes the Great Tribulation leading into The Millenium within the context of a Post-Tribulation Second Coming.

I have quite a bit to share concerning these things, which I believe to be central to God’s ultimate purposes. However, I want to leave room and give opportunity for others to comment along these lines.

Sagebrush

Comment by Fred London | May 20, 2009
I am a believer in Pan-millenialism: the belief that it will all PAN out in the end.

Comment by PithMe | May 20, 2009
The basic principle for interpreting scripture is that it should be taken in its plain sense, unless that makes no sense. This applies as much to prophecy as to anything else.

All fulfilled prophecy was fulfilled literally. God does not change. Therefore all unfulfilled prophecy will be fulfilled literally.

There are large amounts of scripture that speak of a future reign of the King Messiah on earth and of Israel as the chief of the nations. Ezekiel has a number of chapters on the future temple, holy city, the distribution of land and the future sacrificial system. None of this has yet been fulfilled and it will require extensive changes to the geography of Israel for it to be fulfilled. But the principle of plain interpretation means that it must be fulfilled as stated. Many scriptures speak of a restored Israel as chief of the nations. These must be fulfilled, or God is a liar. Objections to this on the ground that it violates some favourite doctrine are irrelevant. If that doctrine does not take into account all that the bible says, it is inadequate.

Jesus agreed by implication that there would be a future kingdom for Israel. Acts 1:6-8: ‘So when they had gathered together, they began to ask him, “Lord, is this the time when you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
He told them, “You are not permitted to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest parts of the earth.”‘

Jesus does NOT say, you have it wrong; there will be no kingdom for Israel. He says instead that they are not to know the time of it. Therefore there will at some stage be a kingdom for Israel exactly as prophesied.

From the OT prophets we know a great deal about what the kingdom will be like. There will still be death, but those who only live to 100 will be considered to have died prematurely. Edenic conditions will be restored in the animal kingdom, so that the lion shall lie down with the lamb, etc. There will be a sacrificial system, but clearly not to take away sin, since Jesus’ sacrifice does that, but rather as a memorial of it. Notice that the future sacrificial system will not be the same as the Levitical one.

The NT does not contradict any of this, but instead gives some extra information. We therefore know who Messiah is, and from Revelation 20 we know how long the kingdom will last: 1000 years.

Some posters have talked as if everything must happen on a single day, but various scriptures make it evident that the Day of the Lord is an extended period. Peter’s first sermon in Acts 2 speaks of a fulfilment of Joel’s prophecy about the latter days; so in one sense the whole time since Jesus’ resurrection is part of the latter days. The Day of the Lord in the sense of a judgement on the world and on unbelieving Israel is also clearly an extended period of time. From Daniel 9 combined with Zechariah and Revelation we know that it is 7 years, divided into two parts. The first 69 sevens (483 years) of Daniel’s prophecy were fulfilled to the day at the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem, a day which he said the Jewish leaders should have recognised, but “you did not know the time of your visitation”. (Ref: Sir Robert Anderson, “The Coming Prince”) After that came a gap containing the crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem as prophesied. Therefore the final 7 years must also happen as prophesied, at the time that God will choose.

During that 7 years is the reign of the prince that shall come, also called antichrist and the beast. During the first part of the 7 years there will be a treaty between him and Israel (Daniel 9) but then it will be broken and he will try to destroy Israel instead. The breaking of this treaty is signalled by his installing himself as god in God’s temple. This is the event Jesus warned of in Matthew 24, at which Jews must flee without even going back inside the house; he is clearly speaking to Jews because he says they should pray it does not happen on the Sabbath. He speaks of it as an event prophesied by Daniel, so it clearly was not fulfilled, but only foreshadowed, by Antiochus’ desecration of the temple. Pre-millenialists conclude that therefore a temple will have been restored in Jerusalem. This event is also not the same as that that Jesus prophesied in the parallel passage in Luke, which was about Jerusalem’s being surrounded by armies. This happened before 70 AD and a brief withdrawal by the Romans enabled Christians who heeded this warning to escape. The temple was not violated at that stage, and later it was not desecrated but merely destroyed. (The fact that Christians are the temple of God in this age does not affect this, since at the stage the new temple is built the Jews do not yet accept this.) A symbolic interpretation of this passage will not do, since how are people to recognise a symbolic interpretation in time to flee? Or do you interpret everything symbolically and make it impossible to distinguish a true fulfilment from your own ideas, as preterists do?

During the last half of the 7 years, the beast/antichrist attempts to destroy the Jews completely but they will be miraculously preserved. However, two thirds will be killed (Zechariah) before the remainder finally, as a nation, recognise that Jesus is the Messiah and ask him to return. He said to the Jews, “You shall see me no more until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.’” That is a Messianic greeting, that the crowds used at his triumphal entry but the leaders did not. He will return to earth when Israel invites him to do so. That is why Satan wants to destroy Israel, so that that cannot happen.

Someone objected that there will be sin in the Messianic kingdom. Since that is what the bible says, we have to accept that. However this is the sin that exists in every man. It is not sin that comes from deception by the devil, since he is bound during that time. It is always necessary to believe in Jesus to be saved, whether in the messianic kingdom or before, and believing in Jesus is a choice that not all make.

What is the point of allowing Satan to be released after the 1000 years? It is to demonstrate that man is utterly unable to produce anything good without God. Even after 1000 years of a reign of perfect justice by Jesus manifest on earth among us, some men will, amazingly, still rebel against him. The whole purpose of human history is to demonstrate that only God is good and that man must be utterly dependant on him; without faith in him there is only evil. Only after this final demonstration is there the final judgement of the wicked and the second death.

There remains the need to distinguish between various groups of saved people. There are:
1. OT saints
2. The church, made up of both Jews and gentiles
3. Those who come to faith after the removal of the church (most of whom are then killed for their faith).
4. The remnant of Israel, who are then purified and made sinless on earth at Jesus’ coming.
5. Those living in the millennium who come to faith in Jesus.

All these are justified by their faith and thus are written in the Book of Life.

The messianic kingdom will be inhabited by
1. purified and sinless Jews in Israel
2. the nations who are judged righteous at the judgement of the sheep and the goats on the basis of their treatment of the Jews (“these my brethren”)
3. those born after the beginning of the kingdom
4. resurrected saints who share in the rulership with Jesus and Israel

After the 1000 years and the final crushing of all rebellion and after the final judgement, Jesus will then hand the kingdom back to God and there will be a new heaven and new earth.

(I have assumed a pre-tribulation rapture in this, which I will justify in a separate post.)

Amillennialism as a system was invented when the church became part of the state under the later Roman empire. It would have been embarrassing to keep on preaching the destruction of the empire when the church had become part of it. Origen’s allegorical interpretative principle allowed them to evade this uncomfortable doctrine. Lutherans and Calvinists etc continued the state church idea (including killing those who disagreed with them), so that amillennialism suited them too. Furthermore, Daniel was told to seal up the teaching until the time of the end (Dan 12). It is not surprising that detailed understanding of this teaching should only have been revived as we draw close to the end; it is now that it is needed.

Comment by Oliver | May 20, 2009
Why a pre-tribulational removal (rapture) of the church?

There are a number of biblical reasons for this and opposed to any other interpretation. But first let me look at reasons why I used to believe in a removal of the church after the tribulation.

* A superficial reading certainly suggests that Jesus’ return will be sudden and will take place suddenly and quickly.
* A superficial reading does not appear to show any possibility of an extended period for the second coming.
* Revelation speaks of believers who have gone through the great tribulation and been martyred in it.

Now let me show the reasons I changed my mind:

* Jesus said his coming would take people by surprise. If it is preceded by the seven years of the great tribulation, it is impossible for it to be a surprise. Therefore his coming for his church must precede the tribulation.
* We are told to be ready at all times for Jesus’ return. There would be little point in that warning if the great tribulation were to happen first and put us on alert for a seven year countdown.
* In the world we have tribulation, at the hands of other people, but God does not put his own people through his judgement:
o Noah was taken out of the world and preserved in the ark, and God shut the door on him to keep him separate from the world.
o The angels told Lot that they could not carry out their judgement on Sodom until he had escaped to Zoar.
o The Israelites and the land of Goshen were spared most of the plagues that God put on Egypt. They were told to put the blood of the lamb on their doors and stay inside when the angel of the Lord passed over. Those who did were protected from the disaster of the death of the first born.
o When Rahab gave her allegiance to Israel and to God, she and her family were spared the destruction of Jericho. But they had all to come into the house to do so. Just so, the church must go out of the world to the place Jesus has prepared for us.
o Jesus tells us to pray that we will escape the wrath to come; this shows that his own will not go through it.
* The church is the bride of Christ. According to the old Jewish wedding custom, the bridegroom would go to prepare a dwelling place for his bride. (This is referred to in John 15, where Jesus says he goes to prepare a place for us.) When the bridegroom’s father judged it ready, he would come without warning to take his bride to the place prepared. The two would be shut up together for seven days until the wedding feast. This corresponds to a removal of the church before the last seven years (a year for each day of the new couple’s seclusion) followed by the marriage supper of the Lamb and then the return of Jesus to earth with his bride. (Revelation 19)
* If all believers are raised from the dead and go to be with Jesus after the tribulation and at the moment of his return to earth, no one will be left to populate the renewed earth and for the church to rule over with Jesus. This is because all unbelievers will be slain at his return. In fact, the earth will be populated by the nation of Israel and the surviving Gentile believers who were converted after the removal of the church.
* In 2 Thessalonians 2, it says that the day of the Lord cannot come unless the “apostasy” comes first. “Apostasy” is a transliteration of the Greek word, “apostasia”, whose root meaning is “standing away”. Jerome, translator of the first Latin bible in the fifth century, along with Wycliffe, translator of the first English bible (and all the translations before the King James version), translate this as “departure”. If we adopt this translation, the passage means that the day of the Lord cannot come before the departure of the church from the world. This makes better sense in the context of the letter than does the more usual translation. How could we distinguish the particular level of apostasy that would fulfil this passage? There has always been apostasy in the church. Indeed, in the late middle ages one could argue that it was almost completely apostate. Paul says he told them these things before. His letters do not say anything explicit about a general apostasy, but 1 Corinthians does speak of the last trumpet at which we shall meet the Lord in the air. So the Thessalonians are worried that they might have missed the day of the Lord — they were being got at by first century preterists — and Paul tells them not to worry, because the departure of the church will happen first and they will certainly not miss that.
* The first three chapters of Revelation deal with the church, but after the voice says to John, “Come up here” at the beginning of chapter 4, there is no more mention of the church until after Jesus returns. This is because the church is not involved in the judgements on the earth, which are described from chapter 4 onwards.
* The twenty-four elders in Revelation are dressed in white robes, which is the sign of redemption, and their song says that they are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they must represent the church and the Old Testament saints (12 apostles and 12 tribes of Israel, or 24 royal priests, corresponding to the 24 courses of the Levitical priesthood). Either way, the church is included and is therefore already in heaven before the judgements of the last 7 years.
* When Jesus returns to rule he is followed by the armies of heaven, who are dressed in white linen Rev 19:14. In verse 8 we have just been told that “the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints”, so this army is the army of the redeemed, who are therefore already in heaven when Jesus returns to the earth.
* The last seven years are centred on Israel, as prophesied in Daniel 9. This last seven years occurs after the destruction of the temple and we know it hasn’t happened yet, so it corresponds to the seven years prophesied in Revelation. Since this concerns Israel, the church’s time must be over.
* The church is characterised by sin mixed in with holiness; this can be seen from the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven, and from the fact that the offering for Shavuot (Pentecost) was the only one which used leaven, which represents sin. So long as we repent of sin, it is all washed away by the blood of Jesus. Pentecost, of course, is the birthday of the church. However, believers in the time of the tribulation are required to demonstrate their faith by living holy lives and must endure to the end in order to be saved.
* The gospels prophesy a sudden removal of believers from non-believers. Two will be working together; one will be taken and the other left. This is clearly to do with the time of the end. If everything happens on the one day, why should any be left? Are the sinners not all to be destroyed immediately?
* Jesus says of the church, “The gates of hell will not prevail against it.” However Daniel and Revelation say that the antichrist (the beast) overcomes the saints. Therefore those saints cannot be the church.
* In John 14, Jesus said “In my Father’s house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.” If the rapture and the first resurrection are after the tribulation, this will not be fulfilled since the saints will not arrive in “my Father’s house”, but will instead meet Jesus in the air and immediately return to earth with him.
* In Matthew 24:20, Jesus says, of the time just before his final return, “Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on a Sabbath”. This clearly indicates that his warning is not to the church, for whom there is nothing to prevent flight on the Sabbath (Saturday), but for Jews in the land of Israel, and an Israel still operating under the Old Covenant. On the Sabbath in Israel (at least in Jerusalem), transport does not run and shops are not open.

Comment by Oliver | May 20, 2009
Wow, I just read through most, if not all the comments above.

I would only sit down on the side of the road, lower my head and shake it and go, oh wow!

Consider this Saints about God, here:

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
Heb 5:13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.

Let’s work backwards then?

First, “AND THIS WE WILL DO IF GOD PERMITS”.

Hmmmm, anyone want to get God to permit you to go onto maturity?

Consider the sequence of those six basic oracles of God:

1. “repentance”
2. “faith”
3. “baptism”
4. “impartation”
5. “resurrection”
6. “eternal judgment”

Becoming Mature;

Unskilled;

Solid meat;

Milk;

Hmmmmmm, it seems this topic is a sure fire “off topic” topic for some, all the while we miss the Sovereignty of God in it as the Word says:::>

Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe God does not permit everyone to go onto Maturity in Christ? “Oh, grow up!”, “Oh, maybe not!!” And this we will do if God permits.

So, again, we should start basically with these Truths:

Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations–
Col 2:21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)–according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

Or, how about these too:::>

Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

2Ti 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,

Now for the really dumb question.

Why would God subject us to futility if He wants us to go onto Maturity in Christ?:::>

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Sometimes the best course of action in the matter is one of Spiritual reality. Now, of course, seeing God has qualified that “Spiritual reality” as “maturity” and He Sovereignly allows one to go onto “maturity” and another, not to go on to “maturity”, it does seems pointless with some of the bander back and forth in here!

There are some certain Words of Prophecy we can be sure of. Why not build the focus around those instead, especially when there is the kind of back and forth going on in here on this topic?

2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Now, here is a basic Bible verse to consider; it comes first as Milk and then as Cheese:

Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Now this I know, that there have been many Saints who have gone on before us Whose Salvation is of the Lord with or without a certain knowledge of eschatology other than their own passing from here to there, seeing they have gone on ahead and now know as they have been known!

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.

Well, in any event, Miriam, it hasn’t gone on in here without some costs and burdens to share!

Comment by michael | May 20, 2009
BB said:
Since there can be no people on earth in natural bodies after the judgment (which occurs when Christ comes back according to the clear texts we have seen above),these apostates can only be those same believers that Jesus raised from the dead at his return. In other words, if premillennialism is correct, then it is glorified saints follow Satan and revolt against Christ!

———

BB again – when Revelation 19 onwards is taken as it is written, the judgement of the unsaved CLEARLY happens after the millennium. You ask for scripture to support what I am saying but you yourself do not accept scripture as it is CLEARLY written.

Revelation 20: 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I’m really wondering what Bibile some of you people are reading!

Sequence of events:

Jesus returns, defeats the beast and casts the beast
and the false prophet into the Lake of fire (Revelation 19:11-21)

Satan is bound and imprisoned for 1000 years.
1000 year reign of Christ.
Saints reign with Christ for 1000 years. (Rev 20: 1-6)

After the 1000 years satan is released and will again deceive the nations but will be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20: 7-10)

Great White throne judgement (Revelation:20:11-15)

New heaven, new earth, new jerusalem…(Revelation 21 onwards)

Clear, simple unambiguous and in sequence – until man in his “wisdom” pulls it all apart and destroys its clear meaning.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
It seems we can’t even agree on what the terms mean:

” Pre millinialism= it’s already happened, or we’re in it now. This is centered around the rapture and that EVENT.

Post millinialism= It will happen when Jesus returns, and is far and wide the most popular view, and I believe the most scriptural..[ have you seen many lions and lambs playing together lately, or 120 year old children? ]

A-millenialism= It’s never going to happen.The passages that imply it will, are just symbolic and a type of Heaven’s life.”

Pre-millenial – Jesus comes back before the Millenium
Post-millenial – Jesus comes back after the Millenium – the church age IS the millenium.
A-Millenium – There is no Millenium.

I’m personally inclined the view that Jesus comes back at the end of the tribulation – thereby curtailing it. And then establishes his throne for a thousand years. Final rebellion, then eternity. But I wouldn’t be dogmatic about it. I do NOT subscribe to the dominionist position that the church gets stronger and stronger, and then hands the church to Jesus when he comes back.

It is incorrect to say that taking a Millenialist view is to be following NAR doctrine.

Comment by NotAllThere | May 20, 2009
btw – revelations isn’t a hard book to read. It only gets complicated when you try to impose a man made scheme on it. It should simply be read, and allowed to speak for itself. I read it, aloud, to my kids a few years ago. It takes about an hour and a half. ( I think it was David Pawson who said it was designed to be read aloud ).

Half-way through I asked if they wanted to continue later… but they insisted on going to the end.

I asked them what it was about. They replied. “We win”.

And that’s the message. The glorious, triumphant victory of the one who died on the cross and then rose again to eternal life, defeating his enemies UTTERLY.

If an 8 year old kid can understand this – why do we tie ourselves up in knots?

Comment by NotAllThere | May 20, 2009
I agree with onesimus, Jesus returns, millennium, Great white throne judgment.

I believe the book of revelation is only symbolic when it says so. Everything else is pretty clear.

Comment by Shaun | May 20, 2009
Dear everyone,

Since this is not an imposed opinion but an article wanting everyone’s view / belief / interpretation on escathology ;

One should defend one’s view BUT should respect the others.

This is a very difficult topic so we should be respectfully and loving towards others.

NO ONE CAN PRETEND TO FULLY COMPREHEND THE BIBLE , as we only understand partly ( I Cor 13).

Believing in the millenium or not , the calvinism or the arminianism are not required to those who want to go to heaven. I understand that we should know the bible but these kind of topic for me ( that’s my opinion ) are not the most important and urgent!

God’s grace be upon you all !!

Comment by Hasina | May 20, 2009
I find it sad that so much energy &, even more sad, bile flows through this topic. I cannot believe that is what Jesus wants. He said,”This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” Mat 24: 14. Exactly how it will come is open to different understandings, but I’m sure our Lord will get it right. I definitely do not accept the Dominionist line as that requires outrageous distortion of so many Scriptures, but we need to pray “Your Kingdom come on earth, as it is in heaven.” and we do bring a little bit of God’s Kingdom wherever we are through the presence of the Holy Spirit in us. The complete Kingdom in the new heaven & earth will only happen when all the symbolism of Daniel & Revelation is put into reality by Jesus when “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

It’s in His hands & that’s all I’m going to trust in. When I was a young Christian I spent a lot of time trying to understand Revelation, but I’m not sure how much long-term benefit it was for me or others. It brought no-one into the Kingdom. My prayer must be “Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus, come!”

Blessings

Ian

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 20, 2009
Thanks Ian for the admonishment to refrain from the bile. I have a hard time when truth is referred to as “the vain teaching of men”. I pray to our Lord that the discussion of this matter be done in love or the discussion itself becomes vain. I can understand all mysteries and have all knowledge, but if I have not love, I have nothing.

I only share what I have found after a thorough study and after changing my position from premillennial. It took years and only after I decided to be open that premill was wrong.

What Onesimus says about the sequence in Rev 19-20 is a strong argument and what kept me a premill for so long. But from the first day I became premill when I was saved, I had questions about the millennial reign of Christ on earth. My big problem was accepting that Satan, once released, could actually deceive the nations….again…with Jesus ruling in glory on the earth. My problem is that what the apostles taught about the return of Christ in the rest of the NT ended differently. I believe the three links I have shared will help anyone searching for truth.

An excellent overview of amill and error of premill:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/millenniumisnotflethcer.htm

An excellent study on why Rev. 19 and 20 are not sequential:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/WhiteFowlerRecapitulationRev19.htm

Articles and studies on millennial views, especially amill:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology.html

The truth is that Christ is reigning NOW and He is reigning NOW with the souls

Comment by BB | May 20, 2009
It doesn’t matter a whit whether you are Premillenialist, Amillenialist or Postmillenialist, because the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Comment by Chaya | May 20, 2009
onesimus

And NOWHERE does any Biblical teaching regarding the Millennium have Jesus “kinda” popping “in and out multiple times”. He will be ruling on earth during that period.

Well yes, he’ll be ruling, but it sounds like he’s not really there in power because there is that rebellion against him after a 1000 years in his presence. I realize it’s more complicated than that, and I suppose I didn’t believe that it was as touchy a subject as warned. I’m sorry if I sounded a little cavalier.

Comment by Christina | May 20, 2009
To Onesimus
There are a few specific points that i want to clarify.
I do indeed have a bible and several of them.
You highlighted the example i used with the beast in Rev 13,this was to highlight the unbiblical interpretation practices that are so evident, even on this thread.The fact that i drew attention to this person being in the premill camp was intentional also as premillenialists are predisposed to literal interpretation of Prophecy, or how else do arrive at a 1000 year earthly reign of Christ?
I took you to task over Rev 20;2 regarding the word “bound” where you added “removed” .This is clearly not in the text, but you have made this your private interpretation which is leading you into all sorts of interpretive error.Strongs concordance interprets the word bound as deo meaning to bind,be in bonds,knit , tie or wind .Similarly Strongs word for “seal” is the word sphragizo meaning to stamp { with a signet or private mark} for security or preservation. Again Strongs word for “shut” is klelo simply meaning to close.There is no evidence in Rev 20:1-2 of satan being removed , he is being held captive until the time of his loosing.Please do not read into scripture what is not there.As for verses 4-6 of this passage, i still have a couple of questions for you, the first one is this ,apart from the souls of the martyrs being in heaven{ they are souls dont forget} just who is reigning with Christ on earth{ by the way , this passage dos not mention any thing about an earthly kingdom}. The second question being just where in Rev 19 does it indicate who is being promoted into this millenial reign , how do they get there and again are they immortal or mortal.I really do want to see chapter and verse with your answers this time , i am also interested to see your OT prophecies that support your views.
There is of course a fully supported biblical view on the millenial reign of Christ as it is now.The bible does mention an earthly reign with Christ and i would draw your attention to Rev 5:9
and they sang a new song saying
Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals
for you were slain and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God and they shall reign on the earth.
Ihad assumed you overlooked this passage because it does not fit chronologicaly into you premill thinking.I put it to you that the reigning with Christ mentioned in this passage is the same reigning with Christ in Rev 20 and that this is only possible because Jesus defeated satan on the cross thus binding satan.
Onesimus , you are starting to paint yourself into a corner, obviously i am not able to convince you of your errors but i pray the Holy Spirit will.

Comment by ray | May 20, 2009
BB

Christina: I read Malachi Martin’s “Keys of This Blood” and Pope John Paul II was looking for the appearance of Mary to confirm him as Christ’s Vicar on earth and ruler of the nations.

I’m not sure that’s the best source book for what JPII thought about this topic. Having read several of his own writings I don’t think “ruler of the nations,” would be something he would have sought or considered possible (certainly not in a political sense which is implied).

Furthermore, the title “Vicar of Christ” has been used since 5th century and a “Marian appearance” wouldn’t be needed confirm it’s usage (if those appearances were even used that way – which they’re not). It’s a biblically based title based on an extrapolation of the “keys to the kingdom” that were given to the steward/vicar to “care for the household” until the master’s return (Isaiah 22) in conjunction with Jesus’ giving the “keys” to Peter (Matt 16).

I’m sorry it’s a bit off topic, but it seems necessary to correct things I can since I’m not a master theologian and the topic itself is a bit beyond my abilities.

Comment by Christina | May 20, 2009
would be something he would have sought or considered possible (certainly not in a political sense which is

That should read “wouldn’t be something…”

Comment by Christina | May 20, 2009
This is A PRE POSTerous debate.
There is only one unanimous teaching by the apostles (who had spent 40 days with the resurrected Messiah being instructed all about the Kingdom of God) and the first apostolic fathers (not the later usurping church ’step’ fathers).
It was not their view, opinion or interpretation or even a revelation. Plain confirmation of what was already the unanimous expectation of the Jewish people from their hebrew scriptures.
If you don’t know what I am talking about it simply shows how far you are away from the ‘faith one for all delivered to the saints’. Saved yes (I hope) but woefully adrift in your understanding of the revealed plans of God.

Comment by Vic | May 20, 2009
Re: Touching on the Issue of Millennial Salvation-

There will be gentile survivors of the tribulation that will have opportunity for salvation after Christ’s return. There will be some throughout the nations that will escape the mark that were not necessarily saved before the time of the rapture. These will not be changed at Christ’s post-tribulational return, but neither will they be destroyed with those that have taken the mark.

We have thus far failed to mention that there are scriptures that describe a divinely commissioned missionary activity of recently saved Jews being sent “to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory …” (Isa 66:19). So evidently not every place and region of the earth will fall under the direct control of the Beast.

Therefore, we can conclude that there is a remnant from among the nations that (1) survive the tribulation judgments, (2) do not take the mark, and (3) are not raptured at the last trump. That is to say, there will remain a sizable number of gentile survivors that were not yet saved at the point of Christ’s return, but that will not be destroyed with the greater part of the world that have passed into irreversible reprobation by taking the mark.

Therefore, not only do the penitent remnant of Israel enter the millennium in their natural bodies as the newly saved survivors of Jacob’s trouble, but also a number from among the nations will enter the millennium also and be the new subjects of Jewish evangelism (Mic 4:3; Zech 8:22).

The same revelation of Christ that translates the church accomplishes the regeneration of the surviving remnant of Israel at the same time. The scriptures show that the survivors from among the nations begin at this point to seek the Lord, because now many are starting to see why all of this has happened (compare Rev 10:7; Isa 25:7; Ezk 39:23 with Isa 60:3).

“Thus says the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you” (Zech 8:23). This is why the gentile survivors of the tribulation will employ every available means of transport to assist the saved remnant back to the Land (Isa 49:22; 60:9; 66:20).

Reggie Kelly

Comment by Fred London | May 20, 2009
Ok, correcting myself yet again – my original post was phrased right (can you just delete both corrections?) I need a vacation

Comment by Christina | May 20, 2009
Madam I m Adam

“I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren” …. concerning not only the rapture – but about everything. See below …

This thread is about discerning what the Word says – no more, no less. Yes the topic is last things, but the secret to knowing the last things is the same secret for all the Word – it is simple. The Word means what it says and v v.

Laws said: “That is why the plain scriptures are disobeyed: women cropping their hair, bossing men. Men wearing earings and long hair. Singing effeminate little love songs. Both all tattooed silly.”

Madam I m Adam said: “Those judgementalized and pharasidic (pardon my spelling) remarks are part of what is wrong with the church. Not to mention it has absolutely nothing to do with this specific thread. Just a broad stroke painting of your belief. God does not care about our hair, tattoos, earrings etc..”

God doesn’t care? Why then would He instruct us thru the new testament then what is ok and/or not?
This so-called present-tense xn church is riddled with heresy.

uh, I just pointed out what is WRONG with the so-called Xn church – it disregards the HOLY scriptures as being “contextually irrelevant.” Tatts and pierces are OF THE WORLD – and are blatant self-mutilations of the temple. That is why Fraud Bent-ley got them – he has shewn physically to be not of God. let alone spiritually.

The true apostles are the onee who gave (actually only repeated what GOD commanded) the ordinances for the TRUE church to obey.
Go read the bible…

11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonoures her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. [who are watching to see who obey Paul]
11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of god.
11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no other such custom, neither the churches of God.

The blatant disregard for the Word is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit – the ONE sin which cannot be forgiven.

The Word is the Spirit:
In John
6:63 The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

In Ephesians
6:17 And take the sword of the Spirit, which IS THE Word of God.

In 1John
5:16 There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

What would Jesus say?

In Matthew
12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
12:32 And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

So the truth is that at the SEVENTH trumpet the rapture happens.

In 1 Cor.
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
at the last trump
at the last trump
at the last trump

In 1Thess.
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Rev: ~ which means “unveiling”
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded [the last trumpet] and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

Oh gee, so not complicated.

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | May 20, 2009
I am a believer in Pan-millenialism: the belief that it will all PAN out in the end. Comment by PithMe | May 20, 2009

This very old and clever statement has the outward appearance of wisdom, but I must tell you that it is actually an unwitting insult to our Lord and a skewed view of God’s intent. God doesn’t just proclaim things just to hear Himself talk or to fill in pages with irrelevant and useless information. There is a reason why God, through His prophets, His Son, and His apostles, spoke so much about end-time prophecy.

To be sure, it wasn’t for the misguided purpose of having fruitless discussion on blogs, turning the study of eschatology into a lucrative business through conferences and endless books on the subject, with the obligatory illustrations of graphs and charts. It was given by God for the purpose of both spiritual and practical preparation. It was not intended to be approached as just another hobby or academic interest to satisfy one’s human curiosity.

It was for the expressed purpose as stated in reference to the tribe of Issachar, “Men who understood the times and knew what Israel was to do.” And these things directly tie into the ultimate purpose for the Church and as it relates to her end-time ministry and relationship to the world and to Israel’s ultimate redemption in particular.

Unless we recognize the relevance and critical importance of these prophetic signs and warnings, we will be as blind men leading the blind. God has called us to a greater responsiblity, both corporately and individually, “And those who have insight shall instruct the many.”

We don’t need to have every “jot and tittle” figured out. But we at least need to be sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to “discern the times” as they become manifest, to be able to recognize when “summer is near.” This is not so much for our own sake as it is for the sake of others.

Comment by Fred London | May 20, 2009
Brethren,

For those interested I extracted from Revelation, key verses ABOUT the coming of the Lord followed by verses describing THE EVENT in very sure and obvious chronology.

My comments in brackets:

ABOUT THE EVENT

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
(The time is at hand: The day of the Lord and more specifically the COMING of our Saviour. Let all be ready for this event)

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(The first descriptive verse in Revelation of what we should expect at any time. To expect anything else will be presumptuous. The people on earth shall witness it. “They which pierced Him” might indicate the dead will be aware also)

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Second death being the casting into the lake of fire)

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
(“The end” being the coming of the Lord referred to in verse 25. The Lord says ‘till I come’. Those faithful until then will rule with a rod of iron.)

THE EVENT

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
(This is directly after the destruction of Babylon)

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
(The GREAT EVENT. The appearance of our LORD.)

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
(The remaining rulers on earth will feel they need to respond to the awesome appearance, probably with earthly weapons.) Compare with Jud 1:14,15 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him”. And 2Th 2:8 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming”

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(Clearly chronological. Even seen symbolically this is plain chronology. If we are in the millennial reign now then the ‘beast’ and ‘false prophet’ are in the lake of fire right now)

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
(to deceive again and cause an uprising against Christ only to be cast into the lake of fire for ever.)

THE JUDGEMENT

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The Revelation given to John should give us a snapshot of things to come regarding the Lord’s coming. I see clear chronology.

A sudden appearance of the Lord should be anticipated. Signs of the times should cause us to become more certain of imminence.

Having read the posts above I would like to make a few comments.

I cannot agree with the reasons given for belief in a pre-trib rapture by Oliver. I have seen this often and it is really fatiguing. (and disturbing)

I cannot see that the millennial reign is now. We do not rule over the nations with a rod of iron. Even symbolically or spiritually. Antichrist is cast into the lake of fire before the millennium starts, which was when? – absurd.

The article by Kim Riddlebarger is not convincing. I find amilleniests saying excellent things about our completeness and victory in Christ but they ‘force fit’ end time scriptures into their views. (Perhaps not as bad as the pre-tribs though)

Not having an official position and after being swayed a bit in all of this I would side with Onesimus in this matter. (consulting only scripture and the Lord, not implying any of you did not:)

Comment by Francois | May 20, 2009
bb, just because onesimus is using “it seems” does not mean he is uncertain about it. He is just more modest and not so cocky as you are. Just because there are questions unanswered does not invalidate a teaching.
Revelation 22:2 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Healing in heaven? So, shall we conclude there is no heaven then?
The return of Jesus Christ will mark the end of this age.
Do you expect the “Great White Throne” judgment then?
In the OT there are still unfulfilled prophecies for Israel where they will bring acceptable sacrifices to God.
The Earth has not been leveled except for Jerusalem and the temple has not yet been built, Ezekiel prophesied about.
When the disciples asked Jesus about the restoration of the kingdom, he did not correct them as wrong.
Luke 22:28-30 28 ¶ Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
This passage certainly does not point to eternity.
There is no way, we can grasp what God will do after the return Jesus Christ. But you boldly say, you can.
1.Cor. does not say that the end will be right after Jesus Christ returns.
If the wrath of God is completed when He pours out His bowls of judgment on the wicked, how do you explain His judgment being poured out at the “Great White throne” judgment?
The wrath of God will continue through all eternity on those who took the mark or do you also believe in universal reconciliation. It does not mean there will never be a wrath of God!

Comment by gyod | May 20, 2009
Why is it that the most strident, harsh & dogmatic posts in this thread—and others—always seem to come from those who insist on using the archaic text of the AV (KJV) to beat others about the head? Seems odd to me! Perhaps it says something?
Just a thought.

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 20, 2009
BB said:
“My big problem was accepting that Satan, once released, could actually deceive the nations….again…with Jesus ruling in glory on the earth.”

Then your problem is with the truth of scripture because that is EXACTLY what scripture states will happen. If you can’t accept what scripture clearly reveals then the only way around your problem is to replace scripture with something that IS acceptable to your way of thinking.

Satan could deceive the nations again because God has determined that he should be able to deceive the nations again. After all, it is God who allows Satan’s release. Satan doesn’t find his own way out of the abyss.

And also note that Satan’s final rebellious act doesn’t get very far.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009
BB, how do you think, Satan got perverted when he was in a perfect condition?
Men do not need Satan to sin. They can corrupt themselves too!
If a being in an environment like heaven can sin, how much more a human in a less perfect environment!

Comment by gyod | May 21, 2009
Ray said:
“as premillenialists are predisposed to literal interpretation of Prophecy,”

But that does not mean that we all try to force Biblical prophecy into today’s events – as in the example you gave.

As for what you say about the binding of Satan, you still ignore the full description in Revelation 20 in which Satan IS removed from worldly influence all together thorough his imprisonment in the abyss. There is NO WAY that this description can legitimately be compared to Satan’s situation today. And where in scripture is Jesus victory on the cross equated with binding satan – whose influence continues to be very real.

You want OT prophesies?

See Daniel 7; Isaiah 2, Isaiah 65, Micah 4.

Or a few NT prophesies about the saints reigning and having authority with Jesus on earth?
Rev 2:26
Rev 5:10
1 Cor 6:2
2 Tim 2:12

I’m not sure how your use of Rev 5:9 “and they SHALL reign on the earth” refutes the truth of Rev 20. – this does not say and they DO reign on the earth throughout the church age. It is in a future tense.

But considering the clear and simple meaning of Revelation 20 is so hard to accept I don’t hold much hope for the acceptance of any of the above either.

Comment by onesimus | May 21, 2009
I think this is a very good topic, one that we don’t hear or study enough about. It certainly made me go for my bible.

onesimus, I laughted at your comment – After all, it is God who allows Satan’s release. Satan doesn’t find his own way out of the abyss. – I don’t know why, it just struck me funny. But it is true as you said, and the latter part of Rev 20:3 states he (satan) must be released for a little while. So there is no debate there.

I am just going along with what we are told in Revelation 20 as it seems the most simpliest way to understand the progression: Satan gets the boot to the pit v2-3; the 1000 year reign with Christ v4-6; Satan is released v7; Gog and Magog battle gathering v8; God comes and really kicks butt v9; Satan goes to the lake of fire – yay! v10; the great white throne judgment v11.

So, I don’t know if this makes me pre or post or what…I don’t like those words, they confuse everyone. The point being there is a coming millenium.

I find it interesting that Jesus doesn’t mention the millenium in Matthew 24 as He gives the disciples an answer to thier question regarding the sign of His coming and the end of the age. If anyone can help me out with that I would appreciate the input.

This has been good Miriam. At what point do you jump in here as I have noticed you to be unusually quiet.

Blessings all.

Comment by M'Kayla | May 21, 2009
Wow Miriam, didn’t you open up a can of worms

Comment by shoshana | May 21, 2009
Oh Yes, I just loved Oliver’s comment.

Comment by shoshana | May 21, 2009
It’s good to look at those little wigglers sometimes!

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 21, 2009
Onesimus said: “Then your problem is with the truth of scripture because that is EXACTLY what scripture states will happen. If you can’t accept what scripture clearly reveals then the only way around your problem is to replace scripture with something that IS acceptable to your way of thinking.

Satan could deceive the nations again because God has determined that he should be able to deceive the nations again. After all, it is God who allows Satan’s release. Satan doesn’t find his own way out of the abyss.

And also note that Satan’s final rebellious act doesn’t get very far.”

I don’t have a problem with the truth of Scripture, you do.
He deceives the nations because that is what God allows him to do BEFORE JESUS RETURNS…GET IT?

Like they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

Comment by BB | May 21, 2009
I am not recommending these videos as I haven’t watched them and don’t have time at the moment, but some people may find them interesting. If someone knows if they are seriously off please let us know.

Amillennialism 1: Crisis In Eschatology

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-1-crisis-in-eschatology/#comments

Amillennialism 2: Understanding The Last Day

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-2-understanding-the-last-day/

Amillennialism 3: How The Bible Deals With Time

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-3-how-the-bible-deals-with-time/

Amillennialism 4: Literal Versus Figurative Interpretation

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-4-literal-versus-figurative-interpretation/

Amillennialism 5: The Meaning of This Generation

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-5-the-meaning-of-this-generation/

Amillennialism 6: The End Of The Age Or The End Of The World

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-6-the-end-of-the-age-or-the-end-of-the-world/

Amillennialism 7: The Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-7-the-destruction-of-jerusalem-in-70-ad/

Amillennialism 8: Interpreting The Book of Revelation

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-8-interpreting-the-book-of-revelation/

Amillennialism 9: The Anti-Christ

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-9-the-anti-christ/

Amillennalism 10: The Beast

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennalism-10-the-beast/

Amillennialism 11: The Rapture

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-11-the-rapture/

Amillennialism 12: The Millennium

http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/amillennialism-12-the-millennium/

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 21, 2009
BB said:
I don’t have a problem with the truth of Scripture, you do.
He deceives the nations because that is what God allows him to do BEFORE JESUS RETURNS…GET IT?

—

No I don’t get it BB because that is NOT what scripture says. Anyone with a Bible can read that for themselves in Revelation 19-20.
Only by rearranging the order of events to suit human teaching can anyone make the claim you have made.

Your beliefs regarding this matter are clearly based on human opinion and not on the VERY CLEARLY detailed events presented in scripture.

Since you refuse to accept the CLEAR and SIMPLE truth of scripture there’s no point in taking this matter further. Our arguments are based on totally different foundations.

I can only pray that others reading through this thread will recognise what IS based on scripture and what is based on the “wisdom” of man.

Comment by onesimus | May 21, 2009
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(The first descriptive verse in Revelation of what we should expect at any time. To expect anything else will be presumptuous. The people on earth shall witness it. “They which pierced Him” might indicate the dead will be aware also) Excerpt from Francois’s post-

Two quick comments:

“And every eye shall see Him…” – This is certainly not a description of a secret rapture. And if you believe that there is a preliminary coming of the Lord which is popularly known as the “Pre-Tribulation Rapture,” then you have another dilemma. You have three “Comings” and not merely two. It would be the “Third Coming” and not the “Second Coming.”

“And they also which pierced Him…” I would suggest to you that this represents the remnant of Jews who survive to the end of the Great Tribulation, who “look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one who mourns for an only son…” (Zech. 12:10). This is when the “nation is born in a day.”…. “And thus, all Israel shall be saved.”

Comment by Fred London | May 21, 2009
Francois: “I cannot agree with the reasons given for belief in a pre-trib rapture by Oliver. I have seen this often and it is really fatiguing. (and disturbing).”

The fact that it fatigues you does not make it untrue. Why do you think these many indications do not indicate a pre-tribulation rapture? Why should it be disturbing that God will rescue his own from his wrath?

Comment by Oliver | May 21, 2009
BB: “I don’t have a problem with the truth of Scripture, you do.
He deceives the nations because that is what God allows him to do BEFORE JESUS RETURNS…GET IT?”

You continue to insist on this in spite of the fact that Revelation says the opposite in the most explicit terms. Your problem is with the scripture. That’s YOUR problem.

Satan is deceiving the nations now. During the millennium he will be bound and unable to deceive them. At the end of the millennium he will be released and will deceive them again. This is not difficult! It is within the plan and purpose of God to demonstrate the utter helplessness of man without God and how those who do not have faith in him can be deceived in the face even of the evidence of the righteous reign of God himself on earth.

Every man must come to faith in Jesus, whether now or in the millennium. Those who do not are ripe for deception as soon as a deceiver is around.

Comment by Oliver | May 21, 2009
i hate videos – unless they are transcribed

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | May 21, 2009
Someone gave this link to explain the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/dan9.html

This is interesting and scholarly, but makes this statement: “Another popular teaching is a computation where Theologians take all the days between 445 B.C. and 32 B.C., and divide the product by 360 days. The problem I have with this is there is no ‘Scriptural’ basis for doing this.” This explanation of the period comes from Sir Robert Anderson who wrote his book “The Coming Prince” in the nineteenth century. Link: http://luke923.com/resources/the_coming_prince/index.php He does in that book give scriptural reasons for using a year of 360 days.

The alternative scheme set out in mountainretreat’s link has the 70 weeks divided into 7×7 (a jubilee) and 62×7 bringing us up to Jesus’ baptism. So far, so good. (I disagree, because Jesus organised an explicit fulfilment of Zechariah in order to make his triumphal entry as King Messiah and Daniel’s prophecy is (62+7)x7 years up to Messiah the Prince.) Then we have a gap of about 3 years for Jesus’ ministry followed by the crucifixion. That event is said to be the destruction (bringing to ruin) of the city and the sanctuary. Then, in that author’s views, the last 7 years are divided into two segments of 3.5 years. The latter segment is a literal 3.5 years, but the first segment is all the time from the crucifixion until the start of the great tribulation.

I cannot feel that an interpretation which mixes literal and figurative so randomly can be taken seriously. By contrast, the standard pre-millennial interpretation has a gap, which is already visible in Daniel, between the 69th and 70th week. The destruction of the city and sanctuary was a real event which has already happened in history; what need then to substitute a figurative destruction? All prophecy that was fulfilled up to and including the crucifixion was literally fulfilled; why should this change after it? We know that a gap was prophesied; we know that there will be 7 years at the end (7 years of which half is defined by Revelation as 1260 days or 42 months, so years of 360 days). All that is in question is the length of that gap.

Comment by Oliver | May 21, 2009
And where in scripture is Jesus victory on the cross equated with binding satan – whose influence continues to be very real.
Actually it is quite to the opposite.
KJV 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Many people think, the most you can get are a few bruises when you really are too close to him because after all, he is a chained and toothless lion, right?

Comment by gyod | May 21, 2009
To Onesimus ,hello again
I have some verses for you to study regarding the binding of satan by Christ.
Jude ;5
Now i want to remind you,although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling,HE HAS KEPT IN ETERNAL CHAINS UNDER GLOOMY DARKNESS UNTIL THE JUDGEMENT OF THE GREAT DAY.
Matthew 12:28
Or how can someone enter a strong mans house and plunder his goods , unless he first binds the strong man?Then indeed he may plunder his house.{ the greek word used here for bind is the same used in Rev 20:2}
Hebrews 2:14
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things , that through death he might he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil.
If Christ did not triumph over satan on the cross , then what did happen?.Satan, who had a free reign to decieve the nations before the time of Christ ,had this freedom curtailed through the death and resurection of Christ, and this is the binding of satan that we see in Rev 20.Through the evidence of sin in the world ,it is obvious that satan has an influence , but because Christ conquored over satan , and established his kingdom, his ability to decieve has been bound , until he is released for a little while.
In no way do i ignore the significance of Rev 20, i absolutely believe he is bound , as it says in the text, and that this binding is for a 1000 years, symbolic of the new testament period.I also fully agree that we are reigning with Christ, as his saints on earth with Christ in heaven with the souls of the martyrs.I have no problems linking this passage to Rev 5:9 -10 as i believe they are describing the same reigning with Christ.I drew your attention to this passage because it is at this time that the Lamb recieves the scroll with the seven seals.By the way , my bible {the english standard version} does not indicate either through the text or language that Rev 5:9-10 is written in a future tense but rather the present tense.Further to this , the kingdom spoken of has been established through the shedding of blood.Regarding this kingdom , can i draw your attention to John 18: 36
Jesus answered, my kingdom is not of this world if my kingdom were of this world , my servants would have been fighting that i might not be delivered over to the jews.But my kingdom is not from the world.
Another point i would like to raise with you is the passage in Rev 9 and i quote
And the fifth angel blew his trumpet and i saw a star fallen from heaven to earth . and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace.
Unless we are talking about multiple bottomless pits and different devils i would concur that this is the opening of the bottomless that was sealed in Rev 20.You do need to remember though , that this is the fifth trumpet, the seventh and last trumpet heralds the return of Christ. Any way , i look forward to your views on this.

Comment by ray | May 21, 2009
To Oliver
Ithink you may have to read that Seventy Weeks of Daniel study again There is no gap in the seventy weeks , they are a continual period up to the time of consumation.This last week covers the entire new testament period.Please let me explain. In verse27 of chapter 9 it reads
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week.

The key word here is strong covenant,satan by his decieving and lying nature cannot make a covenant, only God is able to make covenants because his Words are everlasting.The strenghening of this covenant was through ths death of Christ.So the beginning of this last week began at the cross and will end when the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.Ihope this clears a few things up .

Comment by ray | May 21, 2009
Ray: “There is no gap in the seventy weeks , they are a continual period up to the time of consummation.This last week covers the entire new testament period.”

There is a gap, between Jesus’ baptism and the crucifixion. The author has identified Jesus’ baptism as the end of the 62 sevens. Then he says of the last seven: “There is a simple way to determine what period this is. We know From the context (after the 62 weeks) that it starts after the cross, after Messiah the Prince is ‘Cut Off.’ And we know that this Prince Confirms ([gabar], a Hebrew word which actually is Strengthened) the Covenant after these 62 weeks. Therefore, the week cannot start until Christ is cut Off!”

So 69.5 of the 70 sevens are literal years, but the 3.5 years that would cause difficulty with the scheme are not. I’m not impressed.

Anyone can make a covenant. The word simply means an agreement. In English law, a covenant is an agreement made by deed, because there is no consideration as required for a contract. Of course God keeps his covenants; others may not. The words “strong covenant” speaks about its terms; they say nothing about the faithfulness of the one who makes it.

A literal interpretation makes sense; it requires Israel to be back in its land (check), in unbelief (check), and a new temple to have been built (there are Jews working towards that). Such an interpretation does not require you to torture words to make them mean something different. A year is still a year, not part of an indefinite period of time that you have arbitrarily chosen to label as 3.5 years. It puts a gap where Daniel puts it, between the 69th and 70th seven. It matches history so far.

In the same article, the author says that to “seal up” vision and prophecy means to make it inaccessible. The NET bible notes say: “The act of sealing in the OT is a sign of authentication. Cf. 1 Kgs 21:8; Jer 32:10, 11, 44.”

Comment by Oliver | May 21, 2009
ray: “i absolutely believe [satan] is bound , as it says in the text, and that this binding is for a 1000 years, symbolic of the new testament period”

So who let him out? If you think that satan is bound now, what is different about the world before and after his binding?

And if you believe what scripture says how come you ignore the fact that it says he will be bound AFTER Jesus returns?

Comment by Oliver | May 21, 2009
Plenty here promoting Catholic, Protestant and dispensational ‘othodoxy’.
The writers of scripture were however Hebrew prophets so we should seek their worldview.
That the Messiah is the one to inherit David’s throne, the throne of the Lord in Jerusalem (which is also called the Throne of the Lord) is a major theme of the OT prophets.
Messiah’s Davidic credentials run from the first page to the last of the NT too.
Please note not one ‘church’ creed has one scrap of a hint about Jesus being a Jewish King of Davidic descent who will reign in a kingdom. Plenty of unbiblical claptrap about essenses, Mothers of God, dual natures, descents into Hell etc. but nothing about the true biblical hope for a believer.
Our faith is based on what we are certain of in our hope. Few Christians know what their hope is so this discussion is vital and not an academic one.
What do we even mean by the Gospel of the Kingdom? How can we fulfil this mandate if we do not know what kind of Kingdom we are to proclaim?
Was David’s throne literal or symbolic, earthly or in heaven? Your answer will greatly influence your millennial belief. Jesus died for the blasphemy of a King of the Jews ( means same as Son of God, Messiah). He has yet to fulfil that having been a prophet and currently a High Priest. No Kingship without a throne.
Let me summarise the Hebriac hope that the apostles held in the long line of prophets and that Jesus confirmed to them for 40 days… At this time Lord?
6 days for man. A day = 1000 years (both OT and NT affirm this)
1 Day of the Lord, the 7th day that is prophesied weekly by the Sabbath when rest will come to the earth. Also called the ‘times of refreshing’ in Acts 3. This is why so many around the world are being led to set aside a biblical Sabbath as the Lord is preparing his bride. If you do not yet, and are listening to God you very likely will understand this soon
This is the Millenium 1000 years of peace when the nations are instructed in the ways of God in the Torah by Christ and his redeemed servants. God reigns through His Christ from a restored Jerusalem.
Lots happens on this Lord’s Day which is why many get mixed up. Rapture/resurrection/destruction of overtly rebellious and antichrist at the start of the day, elements burned up at the end of the day as Peter reminds us. Equating Day of the Lord to the Great Tribulation is a major misunderstanding.
8th Day is the eternal day, prefigured by the 8th day of Tabernacles, New Heaven and New Earth when God himself descends to dwell with man. The heavenly Jerusalem comes down.

All the earliest apostolic Fathers taught a literal kingdom based in a restored Jerusalem for 100 years. It was progressively spiritualised along with a transference of our hope to heaven, immortal souls rather than resurection and a removal of a Messaiah /King of Israel. In the end the Roman emperors who presided over Church doctrine were understandably reluctant to promote a Jewish Kingdom from Jerusalem. A and Post millennial are thoroughly un Jewish and unbiblical though if you are looking at scripture with these sets of glasses you will have a sort of consistent hue though parts will be obscured and out of focus.
To see how your beliefs came about please read this illuminating article quoting chronologically from all the major post NT writings by the Church.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/Olympus/5257/apatrist1.htm
For those unable to grasp different states of men co habiting. Read Jesus among disciples after resurrection. For those thinking Holy Spirit/Church must go before antichrist – does works of God and evil spirits occur now?. Sometimes in the same gathering!

Comment by Vic | May 21, 2009
Correction
All the earliest apostolic Fathers taught a literal kingdom based in a restored Jerusalem for 1000 years

Comment by Vic | May 21, 2009
This little discussion on this blog has made it clearer to me that NAR apostles believe that they are establishing the government that will be in place when Jesus returns. This is the motivation behind their vision and work……it’s all about the coming millennium in which they see Jesus sitting on a throne in Jerusalem with them as part of His governing apostles.

Comment by BB | May 21, 2009
Ray,
Jude 5 has nothing to do with the binding and imprisoning of Satan prophesied in Rev 20.
——–
Ray said: “By the way , my bible {the english standard version} does not indicate either through the text or language that Rev 5:9-10 is written in a future tense but rather the present tense.”

Ray, I used the version you quoted. “you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they *shall* reign on the earth.”

The word SHALL (will in other translations) is FUTURE.

He ransomed (past) people for God.
You have made (past) them a kingdom and priests to our God.
And they SHALL (future) reign on the earth.

And also note that the reign is on earth as the other NT references I provided also state, and as Rev 20 makes clear.

——–
Ray said: “Satan, who had a free reign to decieve the nations before the time of Christ ,had this freedom curtailed through the death and resurection of Christ, and this is the binding of satan that we see in Rev 20”

So Satan is no longer deceiving the nations? It seems like you are living in a totally different world to the one I’m in.

Ray said: “Through the evidence of sin in the world ,it is obvious that satan has an influence , but because Christ conquored over satan , and established his kingdom, his ability to decieve has been bound ,”

So satan DOES still have an influence – then it’s obvious that he has not already been bound and imprisoned in the Abyss

Ray – read Rev 20 again. It does not say Satan is bound. It goes MUCH further than binding. It is total imprisonment and a total stop to his ability to deceive the nations. His influence is stopped. He is out of the way for 1000 (literal) years, a fact that is repeated many times. Just count the references to 1000 years.
——
Previously ray said:
“, i still have a couple of questions for you, the first one is this ,apart from the souls of the martyrs being in heaven{ they are souls dont forget} just who is reigning with Christ on earth{ by the way , this passage dos not mention any thing about an earthly kingdom}.”

Why point out “they are souls don’t forget”?
Have you not read the rest of the passage?

Rev 20:4 “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years”

What was that again? THEY CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ a thousand years”

And where is Christ reigning? The place to which He has just returned in the previous chapter of Revelation – the earth; according also to the many OT prophesies, some of which I referenced earlier; and according to the many NT references I provided and significantly according to the Rev 5 reference YOU provided.

There is absolutely NO scriptural reason to change or reinterpret what is said in Revelation 20. You have learned to see things differently through the “wisdom” of man. There is no way that you would have picked up your interpretation from scripture alone. There is NOTHING in scripture to even hint that your approach is necessary.

The only one who benefits from such a teaching is the one who wants to hide that his influence on the earth is destined to end. The one who wants to hide the ultimate destination that he and his followers will face.

Comment by onesimus | May 21, 2009
3. This little discussion on this blog has made it clearer to me that NAR apostles believe that they are establishing the government that will be in place when Jesus returns. This is the motivation behind their vision and work……it’s all about the coming millennium in which they see Jesus sitting on a throne in Jerusalem with them as part of His governing apostles.
Comment by BB | May 21, 2009
———————-

BB.
This is nothing to do with NAR apostles and their establishing of government.

The NAR view is mostly POST Millennial, in that they seek to establish Christ’s millennial kingdom on earth PRIOR to His return. In their view they will make things better on earth and bring the masses to Christ before He comes back.

The pre-millennial view is that Jesus alone will establish His kingdom on earth where He will reign over the nations with His church. Leading up to His return things on earth will get worse until His arrival and the establishment of His kingdom.

They are total opposite viewpoints.

Ironically those who call themselves “amillenialists” today are more correctly post-millenial since they believe in Christ’s return after the millennium (the church age). However the term “amillenial” is preferred to avoid confusion with the dominionist definition of post-millenialism.
David Pawson teaches on the distinction between these various views about the millennium (I gave a link earlier to a talk he gave on this topic. The link can be accessed through my blog. Look for the David Pawson topic reference on the side bar).

Basically the differences are (from memory):

Amillennialism (no millennium at all) There are two different expressions of this belief . One denies the millennium entirely. The other sees it as entirely mythological with a moral application.

Political Post Millennialism: This is the NAR view, in which the church takes dominion over the earth and presents the returning Christ with an already established kingdom

Spiritual Post-Millennialism: The view held by most who would term themselves “amillennialists”. They view the whole church age as being the millennium. This started with Augustine who obviously lived within the first 1000 years after Jesus’ resurrection. The original view was that Jesus would return at the end of a literal 1000 years. When this did not occur the 1000 years was redefined as being a symbolic 1000 years.

Dispensational Pre-Millennialism: Based around the teachings of Darby as promoted through the Scofield Bible. This view includes a pre-trib rapture removing Christians from the world. The millennium includes a Jewish kingdom on earth with the raptured believers remaining in heaven.

Historical (or Classical) Pre-Millennialism: the majority view held until Augustine. The millennium reign of Jesus is a 1000 year period on earth immediately after Jesus’ return; after the defeat of the beast and false prophet and their being thrown into the lake of fire; and after satan is imprisoned in the abyss, denying him the power to deceive the nations. Jesus will reign with His saints over the surviving unbelievers who remain alive after his return. There will be a significant Jewish component who will finally recognise Him as their messiah, “And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26).
After the 1000 years Satan will be released from the abyss for a short time, during which many will side with him in an attempted attack against God’s people. This attack will end with the satanic army being burned up and Satan being thrown into the lake of fire.

Comment by onesimus | May 22, 2009
Regarding the legitimacy of the views of the millennium described above. How do we determine which is correct?

Do we ourselves go to scripture first?
or
Do we go to see how man interprets what scripture says?

Do we accept what scripture actually says?
or
Do we accept man’s reinterpretation of what scripture actually says?

Do you want God’s truth on the matter?
Or
Are you satisfied with man’s interpretation of what God really meant?

Comment by onesimus | May 22, 2009
Onesimus: I was kept from believing the amill position by the amillennial interpreters. I found it from my own study of Scripture when I asked God to show me the truth no matter how long it took me. I can ask you the same question. Did you learn premill on your own or by some teacher like David Pawson?

BB.
This is nothing to do with NAR apostles and their establishing of government.

The NAR view is mostly POST Millennial, in that they seek to establish Christ’s millennial kingdom on earth PRIOR to His return. In their view they will make things better on earth and bring the masses to Christ before He comes back.

The millennium has everything to do with NAR’s politics. To say it has NOTHING to do with it is extreme and misrepresentative. Show me one NARzie apostle that believes the church will be here 1000 years BEFORE Jesus returns?

The NAR’s error is that they believe in a latter rain that will bring in a harvest of souls, but that doesn’t make them postmill. Not even close. Even premills are involved in politics and fixing the government etc.

Ironically those who call themselves “amillenialists” today are more correctly post-millenial since they believe in Christ’s return after the millennium (the church age). However the term “amillenial” is preferred to avoid confusion with the dominionist definition of post-millenialism.

That’s not right at all. The term “amillennial” simply means this view does not believe in a literal 1000 year millennium in the future which BOTH premill and postmills believe. You are confused concerning the differences between amill and postmill. Here are the simple differences.

Amill: In the millennium NOW (millennium being symbolic of a long period of time.

Postmill: The mill still FUTURE before the return of Jesus.

Premill: The mill still FUTURE after the return of Jesus

It seems to me that premill is more like postmill in that they still see the mill as future! Only the amill view sees Christ as reigning NOW with His saints.

Amills do not believe it is going to get better. I don’t. I believe God’s judgments are already beginning to fall. I also believe that Satan has been released to assemble the nations for the war. So enough with comparing amills to postmills when premills are the ones who believe in a future millennium just like the post mills.

also:

I think we need to let Scripture tell us what John is telling us about Satan deceiving the nations.

I believe Satan was cast out of Heaven when Christ disarmed him at the cross (col. 2:15). He was put under restraint…bound at that time to the earth and more specifically the realm of darkness (the abyss) where there is no presence of God and no spiritual light (2Peter 2:4 and Jude 4). This greatly affected his ability to deceive. That is the meaning of “disarmed”.

The more specific meaning of what Satan is restrained from doing in Revelation 20 is deceiving the nations in order to assemble them together. We know this from verse 8 where Satan is loosed in order to deceive the nations. What is the nature of this deception? Certainly, it can’t be that Christ isn’t who He says He is or died for sins, since in the premill view the righteous dead are walking around as witnesses of His saving power in their shining new bodies and Christ is sitting on a throne.

No, Satan deceives for the purpose of assembling the nations for the war against God.

Both amills and premills believe Satan is bound in this regard and not allowed to deceive the nations in order to assemble them. But the premill position believes this happens twice. Once during the church age and again during a future millennium.

Paul tells us that the restrainer will be removed and the lawless one will be revealed BEFORE THE RETURN OF CHRIST. That is how Satan will deceive the nations in order to assemble them for the war. He will use the antichrist with signs and lying wonders for God designs to send a strong delusion.

The amill view believes this happens only once during the church age and Satan is loosed right before Jesus returns. I believe we are seeing it happen at this time.

In the link I provided the exegesis shows how “the war” is the same war in Rev. 16; 19; and 20. There is only one loosing of Satan and there is only one war.

peace and God Bless

Comment by BB | May 22, 2009
onesimus, thank you for your answer to ray. I am amazed how one could ignore so much scripture. If all angels who sinned were bound in darkness, what was Jesus casting out? If Satan is bound, who is this lion that Peter addresses, that walks around, seeking whom he can devour? What is Paul fighting against in Ephesians 6? What does he think is the other spirit and Jesus in Galatians? Which doctrines are people following in 1. Timothy 4?
It would be great, if Satan and his demons were out of the way, but the reality shows another picture.

Comment by gyod | May 22, 2009
To Onesimus
Since you you have taken the liberty of assuming what you think you know about me , its only fair that that i fill in the gaps for you.
For most of my christian life i have subscribed to the premill view, partly because of ignorance but mostly because this was the belief held by many of my friends.It was through disscussions on this topic and searching for biblical truth on the matter , that i started to realise that premill thinking just didn’t add up{ for reasons that i will soon share}.My personal experience was quite the opposite to the scenario that you described!One comment that i would like to make at this point [ from experience]is this: you could read the bible from Genesis to Revelation and not be able to form any notion of 1000 literal year earthly reign of Christ until you arrive at Rev 20, and yet premills will take this passage and reinterpret many other passages and texts untill they conform to their theology.This is a terrible approach to understanding the bible in general and eschatology in particular.
Onesimus , may i suggest that you widen your field of study to include many other passages that write about Christs return.A good place to start would be Matt 13:24 The parable of the weeds, all of Matt 24 , Matt 25 The parrable of the ten virgins, Matt 25;37 onwards 1 Thess 4:13 ,2Thess 2.It is most important that you study all scripture in context so that you can build a complete picture of Gods Kingdom.Studying a few passages here and there, out of context and to the exclusion of others is a sloppy way of handling Gods word.
Regarding your questions , i have answers[ by the way im still waiting for answers to questions that i have previously put to you]
For the reasons above , considering all scripture in context , the text in Jude stands as evidence of Christ binding satan at the cross.Again i ask the question, if satan was not bound ,defeated or destroyed at the cross, then what exactly did happen there?.
In relation to the passage in Rev 5:9-10 i still maintain this is a present tense context.If , as you insist that the last part of v10 ” and they shall reign on the earth” is written in a future tense
, how far into the future is this?Given that this was written 1900 years or so ago , it is possible that any future tense meaning has been realised.
In answer to the binding of satan, in Job 1:6 we read
“now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and satan also came among them” contrast the reign of satan in this passage to Luke 10:17 where the 72 return and say”Lord even the demons are subject to us in your name. And he said to them,isaw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you”. Again i urge you Onesimus to study diligently all scripture so that you get the full picture.
Back to Rev 20 again ,Onesimus , you are still inserting “removed” for the word “bound”, and i do not understand why. Did the author of this text have no idea of what he was writing let alone the vision he saw?.Do you presume to know more about this vision than what God instructed John to record?.You need to study the text that is written ,not the one that you assume is there.Again for your benefit, the word bound is used to associate it with ” to bind, be in bonds, knit , tie ,wind”.
In Rev 20:4 you have again misinterpreted this passage.Souls do not come to life, they are alive already, whether they they be in heaven or hell. How can something that is alive come to life?. A paraphrase of this verse would read something like ” they came to new life in Christ and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”.Please do your study!
You said in your previous post
There is absolutely no scriptural reason to change or reinterpret what is written in Rev 20 . This is probably the one thing we do agree on ,however this needs to be taken in context with all other scripture.

Comment by ray | May 22, 2009
To Gyod
Iam in no way ignorant of scripture.The millenial view point is fully supported by all scripture .There is only one second coming of Christ { not the 2.5 that premills propose], there is only one judgement whereby the goats are seperated from the sheep, the tares from the wheat, the virgins with oil from the ones that dont have oil, the wedding guests with robes from the ones that dont have robes.There is this age and the age to come{ not the age that is to come after the age that is to come}What i am saying here is that scripture builds a complete picture of these events and in reality the picture is a simple one.Unfortunately premills have complicated the understanding of this to the nth degree and what we are seeing is one bad doctrine leading to another.Please study diligently all scripture so that you can see the full picture.

Comment by ray | May 22, 2009
Ray,

Your view on what Pre-Mills believe appears to presume that all Pre-Mills believe alike. This is not true. There are some variations on a theme, so to speak, such as when the Rapture or Second Coming of the Lord takes place. Some are Pre-Trib, some believe in a partial rapture in the midst of the final seven years of the Tribulation period, while others believe in a Post-Tribulation rapture, indicating a one and only Second Coming, otherwise, you actually have a Third Coming, which creates another possible doctrinal dilemma.

You also have the Premillenial Dispensationalists (Darby, Schofield, Hal Lindsay, “Left Behind Series”) who believe there are distinct dispensations as it relates to God’s dealings with Israel and the Church. The issue or potential problem as the case may be, is not in Israel’s distinctivenss for a time according to God’s divine purposes, but that destinies of the two are totally divorced from each other.

The traditional and most common thought is that the Church is raptured at the start of the Tribulation period, along with the Holy Spirit, and the remaining Jews are essentially left to fend for themselves, and by themselves. This thinking is wrought with several doctrinal problems, but again, my point is that not all Pre-Mills share precisely the same doctrinal beliefs.

Comment by Fred London | May 22, 2009
Oney-Are you ahead or is BB-is anyone keeping score or Who’s on First-

BTW are you a KJV only buff?

Comment by grant | May 22, 2009
Fred
Thanks for your comments regarding different premill views.I will concede also that amills differ among themselves but perhaps not as widely though.One of the points i made at the start of this thread was my assertion that there is only one true interpretation of these events , and that is Gods interpretation,or does someone beg to differ? Therefore this is not about determining who is right and who is wrong but seeking out the truth on these matters .Remember, this is about “Revelation”.There are some Mysteries of God that will not be revealed until the day we are with Him, however the events that surround his return are written in his word and are there for our understanding.There seems to be this notion that there are many valid interpretations and that all can coexist happily in one big family.There can be no true unity in compromise , only in truth, this is indicative of the wider church today where unity is being found in the lowest common denominator .Can i urge everyone to seek the truth , not only in this matter ,but in all areas of our christian because the days are coming where you are going to need it for you survival.

Comment by ray | May 22, 2009
For Grant,

Course exam results so far. Continuous assessment.
Topic: The Millenium – Giving an answer for the believers hope in the Kingdom of God

Onesimus A- Sound responses to most questions on the curriculum though would profit from remembering quotes from the prophets.
Gyod B+ Left it late but shows good grasp of subject overall
NotAllThere B+ Good pithy answers though would have liked more supporting material.
Fred London B Well argued but needs to integrate favourite elements (Israel) in a wider presentation
Thomas Watkins B Needs to pay more attention to basic definitions though grace provided as suspected dyslexic
Oliver B Good try but lost marks for copying from popularist Dispensational student sitting next to him. Needs to think for himself.
Ray C Independent thinking commendable but too often misquotes alternative views
BB D A Stoic performance but far too easily swayed by peer pressure of Gnostic and Platonic Church (Step) Fathers. Plagiarism naughty though shows initiative.
Christina E Took wrong advice from her Father and kept on ‘popping in and out’ of the exam room
Paul E Strong opinion but no supporting evidence for why he is wrong
Jan E Should have attended lectures and library during the course. Too late to wait for the exam to start working.
Paula E Writing not clear enough to mark
Michael E Seemed to be answering last terms language exam and not the future (history) one at hand
Anon F Did not turn up for class and a led other students astray with a why bother attitude.
Ian Huchinson U (Unclassified). Insufficient care for the subject matter and distracted classmates with occasional chatter.
J.Doe Not only didn’t understand the question, did not know where he was.
Lawrence Luprypa Disqualified for being stroppy to the other students
Pithme Deserves 1000 (or more if only symbolic) lines for being a clever Dickie ‘ I will not make light of Scripture’
Miraim Video links inadmissible evidence as examiners sound card not working

Apologies if some unmarked.

Still time to achieve higher grades folks before the coming final exam though some it seems will have mysteriously dispappeared, some will turn up symbolically, some will be truanting preaching the Gospel to the new intake and others will literally be too busy working it out to notice what they have written come to pass.

Comment by Vic | May 23, 2009
Vic,

Giving out grades? If any apologies on your part need to be made, it has nothing to do with your leaving others’ comments “unmarked.” On the contrary, it should be an apology to all for your presumption in taking it upon yourself in giving out unsolicited grades on these comments. Who are you to be giving out grades? If I wanted to present as essay for a grade I would have been more than happy to monopolize the discussion in orfer to cover all the bases and qualify and elaborate on each and every point made. If in the course of the discussion and inquiry I need to go into more detail, I will do it. but not because you want to “play teacher” and assume authority not granted to you.

Comment by Fred London | May 23, 2009
Ray,

I appreciate your comments as it would do us all well to approach the truth of Scripture as a Berean. As one man has said, “It is better to be divided by truth than united in error.”

Comment by Fred London | May 23, 2009
To Vic [examiner]
Unfortunately you have disqualified your self as the examiner, i notice your submission of a couple papers!. This is .probably an oversight on your part , but you neglected to include yourself in the above assesment. [ i will be lodging an official protest over my grading, i didnt realise that misquoting other positions was as important as misquoting scripture,].
You have kept a fairly low profile on this thread but there is sufficient material here to mark your efforts.
Before i give my assesment though , there are a few observations to be noted.
In your post [52} you said and i quote
"It was not their view,opinion or interpretation or even a revelation.Plain confirmation of what was already the unanimous expectation of the jewish people from their hebrew scriptures"
This expectation of the jews is the very reason there is so much confusion in these matters.They expected a messiah to come and liberate them from their oppressors, the Romans.What they got was someone that liberated them from the OPPRESSOR, and in their stubborness and blindness they were unable to see this.How is it that the gentiles would come to acknowledge Christ as the saviour and yet the jews , the very people of God could not.Even to this very day we see the nation of isreal still waiting for the messiah to liberate them from their enemies[lit].To be sure ,this is where premills have found a basis for their beliefs.However , taking all of scripture into consideration and using the new testament to reveal that which is in the old , i refer you to Romans 9:6 onwards
But it is not as though the word of God has failed .FOR NOT ALL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISREAL BELONG TO ISREAL.
Again in Romans 2:28
For no one is a jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.But a jew is one inwardly and circumcision is a matter of the heart , by the spirit,not by the letter.His praise is not from man but from God.
A comprehensive study of Romans is in order here.Paul is redefining the understanding of what it means to be a jew and the subsequent citizenship of isreal.Having a bilical view on this issue is paramount to our understanding of eschatology as it puts into context many OT prophecies regarding “isreal”.
To your post[80] i have this to say.You have failed to engage the reader, your musings are abstract and undefined, you did however pick up on a theme that puts into perspective the millenial period .Unfortuntely you fell into the trap of a literal interpretation[1000 years].Im refering to your thoughts on The Feast of Tabernacles.Along with The Feast Of Weeks and The Passover these three feasts are to be kept for all time.
Leviticus 23:41
You shall celebrate it as a feast to the Lord for seven days inn the year. IT IS A STATUTE FOREVER THROUGHOUT YOUR YOUR GENERATIONS.
It is obvious that we do not observe this as it is written, but neither do we observe The Passover as it was instituted, for through Christ these feasts were perfected and given different manifestations.Please take the time to study this passage and you will observe that the first day of the feast is a sabbath where we rest from our works and enter into Christs rest.
Hebrews 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest,God would not have spoken of another day later on.So then , there remains a sabbath rest for the PEOPLE OF GOD, for ever has entered Gods rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.Let us therefore strive to enter that rest so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience .
The rest of the week we are to dwell in booths, symbolic of Gods provision for us and our temporal existence.The eighth day also being a sabbath is symbolic of entering in to Gods eternal rest. The seventieth week of Daniel looks at this week from a different perspective, but it is the same week.
Anyway Vic your assessment is D more home work is required.

Comment by ray | May 23, 2009
Wow. I didn’t get a grade! sniff….

Comment by M'Kayla | May 23, 2009
Vic – As I see it this is a little tongue in cheek humour from you. You are sometimes too clever for your own good!. Blessings to you for all your work anyway. I liked my E mark – I thought that was funny.
I will give you a D since you were so hard on me. The reason is because you entered the exam room late and you did not read the question. You were told to keep your answers as clear as possible using simple speech and regrettably you failed in that . I will award BB an A for clarity.

Comment by jan(2) | May 23, 2009
Fred,
Thanks for your comments. I was wondering who would be first to react, time zones and all.
I had in mind to do this and took a prompt from Grant’s extremly serious and authoratative comment.
Please take it as an alternative way of presenting my view on the discussion so far and bringing some levity into what can be a heavy task.
Most contributors have approached it with their authoratative comments, even those who say there is no way to be authorartative.
I look forward to reading any further comments you make (it was even a round about way of encouraging them) as I read each person with interest. Well done too for not seeking to monopolize.
Be blessed.

Comment by Vic | May 23, 2009
Jan,
Sorry if I used complicated words. Which ones particularly?
Possibly dispensational?
I set myself up for grading too. I can take it!

Comment by Vic | May 23, 2009
Vic – hi, it wasn’t so much about words as an understanding of what you believe. It would have been helpful, for someone like me who is still learning about this, to have people set out exactly what they believe and why. I hadn’t read Ray’s comment of 23rd May when I commented (and note we gave you the same grade!) and he also said your sparse comments were abstract and undefined. In fact I learnt more about what you believe by his comment than your own. I would love to hear in simple words your case for pre mill especially centred around your obvious love for Israel.

Comment by jan(2) | May 23, 2009
Gee Vic. If I knew I was going to be graded, I would have handed in better work.

Thanks Jan. And I give you an A as well for actually studying this matter out and being open. I just want the truth and I want to be right for Him.

The study of Revelation 20 isn’t easy and all positions have their weaknesses.

Let’s try this approach to the matter. Let’s forget about the millennium for the moment. What do we all believe about Satan and what happened to him after Jesus died, rose and ascended to Heaven. What changed for him? Was he in anyway bound or his powers in anyway curtailed?

And what do we believe about what happens before Jesus returns? Doesn’t Paul tell us that there is some kind of restraint that is removed so the ‘man of sin, the son of perdition’ can be revealed? (2Thess. 2).

Don’t we believe that Satan will gather the nations into a one world order under the antichrist so that all are marked and must worship the image or be killed?

Don’t we all believe that God allows Satan to gather the whole world for the battle of Armageddon?

Do you see what I’m getting at? We believe there is a restriction on Satan’s powers but at some point he will be allowed to gather the nations before Jesus returns.

Revelation 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Boy, that sounds an awful lot like this:

Revelation 20:7 … Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Isn’t this the same battle? Does Satan get to do this twice? ….I don’t think so.

Comment by BB | May 23, 2009
I like those grades, Vic, even if you misspelt my name. I won’t give you lines for that!
It is a fine line between taking Scripture seriously & taking ourselves & our understanding of it too seriously. I still very strongly believe that the hard, entrenched positions on such doctrines of the Rapture, the Millennium & many other very interesting topics of theology are not the way for Jesus’ Kingdom to be brought on earth. He will bring that in by His return, but our work is to preach the Gospel, make disciples, feed the hungry, care for the sick, strive for justice for the oppressed & all the other things that Jesus told us to do. I don’t remember Jesus ever giving us any command to pursue deep theological discussions & hurl epithets at each other; actually I think that is a grave danger of doing a REAL Matthew 7 v 1 to 5. I am serious about that as that seems to be the sort of thing Jesus IS talking about rather than the gross misuse those verses have received from the NAR & WOF ‘teachers’. I don’t find the abuse there has been in this thread at all edifying or profitable for the Kingdom. God wants us to bring blessing & not cursing on each other so, be blessed all of us whether pre-, post- or a-millennialists because that’s what Jesus came for!

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 23, 2009
Vic,

I must say that I am impressed with your gracious response to my rather blunt reproval. You are to be commended for that. I liken myself to that of a shellfish… hard shell, but with a soft underbelly. It is a bit ironic since I happen to be a Jewish believer in Jesus. As such, it
should come as no surprise as to why this issue means more to me than a mere passive interest or academic discussion. Rather, it is a matter of life and death for me, having a personal vested interest (passion and burden), both in terms of the physical and spiritual sense. It is also important to the Church’s understanding as to its critical role in the “last days.”

This also explains to a large extent why I believe it is imperative to see the Biblical connection between the Church and Israel, in this age, including the final seven years (Tribulation), and in the one to come. In other words, I strongly believe that how we view this dynamic in the great scheme of things, or God’s purposes, has a direct correlation upon our understanding of the purpose of the Millenium. The operative word is “purpose,” which has great bearing on our Millenial theology as has been clearly demonstrated in this thread.

Best regards.

Comment by Fred London | May 23, 2009
To Ian Hutchinson
Jesus said in John 14:6
Jesus said to him , i am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me.
Shouldn’t this verse be an inspiration to all believers to seek out the truth?I do agree that we should all be mission minded and you raised good points regarding caring for the sick and poor and striving for justice,however if this is not done within the context of truth ,then all these things are in vain.
The reason myself and others on this thread take this topic seriously is the abundance of misunderstanding that has come by way of not searching for the truth.For instance ,in your previous post you said and i quote
…………..are not the way for Jesus Kingdom to be brought to earth,He will bring that in by his return.
Ian , this is clearly not the case for in Luke 11:20 we read
But if it is by the finger of God that i cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
By way of Christs presence and the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom of God has come and it is here and now, why look for another kingdom when you are already a part of one?
Another case in point is Oliver’s statement May 21 where he states and i quote
Every man must come to faith in Jesus whether now or in the millenium. Those who do not are ripe for deception as soon as the deciever is around.
This is another example of one bad doctrine leading to another.The time for salvation is NOW , when Christ returns it is too late .The parable of the ten virgins states this explicitly. Failure to seek the truth is the catalyst for deception.

Comment by ray | May 24, 2009
Amen, Fred: The Church must in this hour see and know its vital connection to Israel. Dominionism is a major concern in America in particular as well as replacement theology, which is not directly on point at this time.

I am very grateful to be able to follow this discussion as we will be starting a study on Revelation in our home in June. The lack of concern and knowledge among many believers we have contact with was baffling until I realized that it was not WHAT was being taught in most churches that was the problem, it was WHAT WAS NOT being taught that is the problem: no end times teaching.

So now we have another place to turn as questions may arise in our study of Revelation. I hear some fine minds out there. Oh, yes, we have many Bibles and reference books but dialogue is good! A challenge to our beliefs should drive us deeper into the Word of God and either establish or change us. There is nothing frivolous about discussing these issues. They are critical in nature.

Comment by Loretta Steele | May 24, 2009
BB, there is one small flaw in your interpretation.
First of all, what leads you to believe that he not allowed to do this twice?
Secondly, Satan is not imprisoned. He will give his seat and authority to the beast and he will make war with the remnant of her seed. This is a bit hard to accomplish when one is in prison! Therefore these two verses do not refer to the same event.

Comment by GetYourOwnDeliverance | May 24, 2009
Ray: “Another case in point is Oliver’s statement May 21 where he states and i quote
‘Every man must come to faith in Jesus whether now or in the millenium. Those who do not are ripe for deception as soon as the deciever is around.’ [Better to cut and paste when quoting; I can spell "millennium" and "deceiver"! and I wrote "a deceiver", which is subtly different.]
This is another example of one bad doctrine leading to another.The time for salvation is NOW , when Christ returns it is too late .”

Ray, I think you misunderstand me. Those who are alive and of the age of responsibility must decide before Jesus returns. Those who are alive in their natural bodies on earth in the millennial kingdom after Christ returns, whether because they are brought into it at its start or because they are born after it starts, will be saved only by faith in Christ, just as we are now. You seem not to believe that there will be any such, since you think that there will be no millennium after Christ returns. For your view, therefore, it is correct that all men must come to faith in him before his return. But I think your view of the sequence of events is incorrect.

However, my point was not meant to be about the time that repentance will be possible but rather that salvation can only be by faith in Christ, and only those who have faith in him have the capacity not to be deceived. Those in the millennial kingdom who do not have faith in him will be open to Satan’s deception when he is released and will therefore join with him and will share in his condemnation.

Comment by Oliver | May 24, 2009
BB asked:
Onesimus: I was kept from believing the amill position by the amillennial interpreters. I found it from my own study of Scripture when I asked God to show me the truth no matter how long it took me. I can ask you the same question. Did you learn premill on your own or by some teacher like David Pawson?
—————-

The actual TIMING of the millennium I learned from scripture.
There are fewer things expressed more clearly than WHEN the millennium will occur and what will happen to Satan for that 1000 year period. Scripture puts it immediately after the return of Jesus and His defeat of the beast and false prophet, and immediately before the great white throne judgment. Scripture also clearly states that Satan’s ability to deceive the nations will be stopped for that whole 1000 year period.

It is part of a clearly described series of events – but for some reason, the ONLY part of this series of events that is removed from its sequential context, its literal meaning “spiritualised” is the part that details Satan’s ultimate defeat. INTERESTING!
Could Satan be trying to hide something about his ultimate future?

David Pawson is a teacher I have a lot of respect for and his teaching eventually helped me to learn more about what actually happens during the millennium. When I first heard his teaching on the topic I didn’t take it too seriously because I thought it was highly speculative. It was through my own reading of scripture that I found that his “speculation” was in fact based on various prophecies throughout the scriptures.

With Pawson’s teaching, like any teaching, I test it by scripture alone. Not by someone’s view on how scripture ought to be interpreted – but according to what scripture ACTUALLY SAYS.
Too many people try to apply systems of interpretation to their study of scripture and in the process come up with reasons for believing that scripture doesn’t really mean what it says.

Most Christians remain in total ignorance about what scripture says about the millennium. Again, I will point out that this is the part of scripture that details Satan’s ultimate defeat, so I’m not surprised that the issue is either avoided or causes so much controversy.

Ray said:
Back to Rev 20 again ,Onesimus , you are still inserting “removed” for the word “bound”, and i do not understand why. Did the author of this text have no idea of what he was writing let alone the vision he saw?.Do you presume to know more about this vision than what God instructed John to record?.You need to study the text that is written ,not the one that you assume is

Ray, you say I am inserting the word “removed” but you are clearly REMOVING most of what scripture says and retaining that ONE word bound. You are the one who is clearly changing the meaning of the whole section of scripture by clinging to one word and ignoring the rest. Are you trying to say that all of the following does not describe the removal of Satan’s influence in the world?

Rev 20: 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He SEIZED the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and BOUND him for a thousand years. 3He THREW HIM INTO THE ABYSS, and LOCKED and SEALED it over him, to KEEP HIM FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS ANYMORE UNTIL the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

And note WHO is the one who binds him prior to the millennium, is it Jesus on the cross? NO it is an angel coming down from heaven.

Ray said: “the text in Jude stands as evidence of Christ binding satan at the cross.”

NO it doesn’t. There is NO reason to read that meaning into Jude.

Ray also said:
“In Rev 20:4 you have again misinterpreted this passage.Souls do not come to life, they are alive already, whether they they be in heaven or hell. How can something that is alive come to life?. A paraphrase of this verse would read something like ” they came to new life in Christ and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”.Please do your study!”

I have not “misinterpreted” the passage. I did not interpret the passage at all. I accepted what scripture said and didn’t try to paraphrase it to make it conform to my preconceived belief.
Everything you wrote in the quoted section above is based on YOUR opinion and YOUR interpretation. It is not based on what scripture itself says.
I have done my study – but it has been a study of scripture and not a study of man’s interpretation and paraphrasing of scripture.

Comment by onesimus | May 25, 2009
Oney-Are you ahead or is BB-is anyone keeping score or Who’s on First-
BTW are you a KJV only buff?
Comment by grant | May 22, 2009
————-
I don’t touch the KJV.

I use the TNIV for general reading because I found an edition that removes all chapter and verse numbers. It makes it MUCH easier to recognise context when scripture is not divided into sound-bite sized proof texts.

For further study reference I use the ESV, NIV, Holman (can’t recall the abbreviation the moment) and the NKJV. The Amplified can be useful, but at times it tends to be a paraphrase rather than a direct translation.

Is anyone keeping score?
Well I hope the TRUTH comes out on top –the truth that is revealed through scripture; not to be confused with the “truth” that is presented when man reinterprets scripture in order to support a favoured tradition and theology.

Comment by onesimus | May 25, 2009
Onesimus wrote:

Ray also said:
“In Rev 20:4 you have again misinterpreted this passage.Souls do not come to life, they are alive already, whether they they be in heaven or hell. How can something that is alive come to life?. A paraphrase of this verse would read something like ” they came to new life in Christ and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”.Please do your study!”

If we examine the literal Greek translation of the term in question we need not rely on paraphrasing a passage to make a doctinal point. In this particular case it reads, “And they LIVED and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

One final comment. Let’s see if we can address these things without casting aspersions on one’s character. As Proverbs says, “The words of the wise makes knowledge acceptable.” We can be right, but dead right…

Comment by Fred London | May 25, 2009
One final comment. Let’s see if we can address these things without casting aspersions on one’s character. As Proverbs says, “The words of the wise makes knowledge acceptable.” We can be right, but dead right…

Comment by Fred London | May 25, 2009
——–

Was this directed towards something I wrote?
If anything I wrote came across as “casting aspersions” on anyone’s character than I apologise – that has never been my intention.

Soemthing that has been constantly been brought to my attention over the last year is the extent to which men’s traditions and theology have replaced truths that are clearly revealed in scripture.

This topic is merely one of them.

Comment by onesimus | May 25, 2009
Ray, where do you see the 2.5 comings of Jesus Christ in premill doctrine?
When the NT speaks about eternal then it says age of ages in Greek.
There are other verses that speak about ages like
KJV Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Comment by gyod | May 25, 2009
Ray said: “the text in Jude stands as evidence of Christ binding satan at the cross.”

NO it doesn’t. There is NO reason to read that meaning into Jude.

That took place way before even Job. You may find that in the book of Enoch. Onesimus, I concur with you!

KJV 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Oops, is he speaking to Christians there? I guess so!
Does he have a twin? I don’t think so!

Comment by gyod | May 25, 2009
Ray,

Just a couple of points in reply: yes, we must work in truth & that truth is Jesus, as you quoted. So the truth we must work in is what Jesus would think & do. Obviously we don’t know that totally, but His agenda was a here & now one with very rare glimpses of the future & His final return.
The other point I should have made about the Kingdom is, yes, the Kingdom IS among us & has been for 2,000 years, but the final, complete Kingdom of the reign & rule of King Jesus on earth & in heaven will only be complete when Jesus returns. I wanted to make sure no-one misunderstood me to be following the Dominionist line, but didn’t make things quite clear.

Onesimus, it’s strange you find the Amplified Version a paraphrase at times as it’s the version I go to when I want to get the full feel of the Hebrew & Greek texts. John 21 really comes alive when Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him. Personally I usually use the NASV 1995 edition as experts seem to think it’s the most accurate translation. However, no translation can ever totally express the meanings as they would have been understood by the original hearers as languages don’t always have directly equivalent words. That’s why we need Holy Spirit understanding!

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 25, 2009
How did the Book of Enoch get into this discussion? It’s part of the OT Apocrypha & not usually regarded as Inspired.

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 25, 2009
To Oliver
Point about misunderstanding taken and noted , my apologies, obviously our opposing views of the millennium is causing confusion and misunderstanding,we could be dancing around Rev 20 for a while yet!
To Ian
I see the kingdom of God that was instituted at the coming of Christ as a continuous one.
To Gyod , wow you’ve got extra books in your bible i’ ve gotta get one those.!
Rev 12:11
“And they have conquored him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.Therefore rejoice O heavens and you who dwell in them.but woe to you O earth and sea for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short.”
Asto your question about my 2.5 comings of Christ , there are others on this thread who subscribe to a pretrib rapture.This was a tongue in cheek comment because as someone else noted this presents doctrinal difficulties.Is the rapture in this timing to be considered the second coming or is it when Christ returns bodily?Reading back through various posts , there is a lot of confusion much of pretrib beliefs.
To Onesimus
In your previous post you say and i quote
David Pawson is a teacher that I have a lot of respect for and his teaching eventually helped me to learn more about what actually happens during the millennium.
You have persistantly disparaged anyone that has made references to other web sites , books or articles as turning to mans wisdom ,is there one rule for you and another rule for others?Because we dont agree with you, you assume that we dont check what we read against scripture. Could you possibly expound on your method of interpreting scripture because here again you are judging everyone else based on your interpretive ideas.I put it to you that you are interpreting scripture according to your preconcieved ideas, we all are.
As to going back over Rev 20 , for mine it simply confirms that we are presently in Christs reign.Again , there are many other scriptures that would indicate this.
I would also be interested in views on the rest of Revelation.

Comment by ray | May 25, 2009
Onesimus wrote:

Was this directed towards something I wrote?
If anything I wrote came across as “casting aspersions” on anyone’s character than I apologise – that has never been my intention.

Something that has been constantly been brought to my attention over the last year is the extent to which men’s traditions and theology have replaced truths that are clearly revealed in scripture.

This topic is merely one of them.

Comment by onesimus | May 25, 2009

Onesimus,

Below is a list of comments by you that in my view distract abd detract by their tone some valid points you make:

Why don’t we stick with what the Bible CLEARLY says instead of turning to man’s vain interpretations.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009

I don’t need to see what other people believe and consider their arguments when scripture is TOTALLY clear. In fact scripture could not be clearer on this matter. Go to the scriptures alone and stop trying to rationalise everything away according to the arguments of man.

Comment by onesimus | May 19, 2009

You need scripture? Then search the scriptures Ray instead of turning to men’s theology. Start with the obvious of Revelation 19 onwards. Then see most of the prophets in the OT.

You have a bible don’t you? Why rely on me to give you a handful of proof texts that you would reject anyway? Open your bible and search for yourself. That’s what I had to do and I discovered what SCRIPTURE says instead of what man is saying.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009

Then your problem is with the truth of scripture because that is EXACTLY what scripture states will happen. If you can’t accept what scripture clearly reveals then the only way around your problem is to replace scripture with something that IS acceptable to your way of thinking.

Comment by onesimus | May 20, 2009

No I don’t get it BB because that is NOT what scripture says. Anyone with a Bible can read that for themselves in Revelation 19-20.

Only by rearranging the order of events to suit human teaching can anyone make the claim you have made.

Your beliefs regarding this matter are clearly based on human opinion and not on the VERY CLEARLY detailed events presented in scripture.

Since you refuse to accept the CLEAR and SIMPLE truth of scripture there’s no point in taking this matter further. Our arguments are based on totally different foundations.

I can only pray that others reading through this thread will recognise what IS based on scripture and what is based on the “wisdom” of man.

Comment by onesimus | May 21, 2009

I have not “misinterpreted” the passage. I did not interpret the passage at all. I accepted what scripture said and didn’t try to paraphrase it to make it conform to my preconceived belief.

Everything you wrote in the quoted section above is based on YOUR opinion and YOUR interpretation. It is not based on what scripture itself says.

I have done my study – but it has been a study of scripture and not a study of man’s interpretation and paraphrasing of scripture.

Comment by onesimus | May 25, 2009

Now, having cited this list of comments, please know that I hadn’t been keeping track of all of these sorts of comments along the way. It was only in response to your question posed to me that I felt obligated to cite specific examples to you. My comments were essentially based upon an general sense of your tone and attitude.

Having said that, let me make it also be clear that I was not directing this soley at you. But, I must commend you for immediately responding and being “a stand-up guy,” so to speak, in asking if my comments were directed specifically towards you. At the moment, you are the only one to have responded. But, quite apparently, something struck a chord which compelled you to respond and to provide an explanation and to some degree, express personal sentiments.

The commnents I had thrown out there were purely for general consumption and consideration. It is a principle which applies to us all. I participate on several blogs and there have certainly been times when I have felt compelled, usually on behalf of others, to be quite blunt, tough, and even cynacle when confronted by arrogance, manipulation, and bullying. So, I would be quite hypocritical if I failed to admit to playing “hardball” at times when I feel it is justified to do so.

The real challenge is in determining, or discerning, when certain circumstances are genuinely justifiable. We see in Scripture examples of the Old Testament prophets,with the apostle Paul, and even Jesus, when they would use cynacism, and express themselves in the harshest of terms to either warn or to make a point. We just have to be prudent in picking our spots and reserving our amunition for when it is truly called for.

Let me also say, that I happen to agree with much of what you have thus far shared on this thread. Like you, I have a passion for the truth and endeavor approach the Scriptures as a true Berean and to expose and confront error when I see it. As a result of this, I myself have been banned from multiple blogs when I, according to Scripture, have challenged certain teachings and so-called prophetic words which ran contrary to those same Scriptures. I would expect no less from others.

We are instructed to “examine everything carefully,” to “pass judgment” on prophetic words, and to “test the spirits.” This is not to be carried out with the attitude of a self-righteous Pharisee, or exherting a type of New Testament legalism and witchhunting, but to ensure that we not “be corrupted from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” This is God’s own “check and balance system,” so to speak, employed to maintain a right testimony of the Person of Christ and God purposes.

It can certainly be said that in our day with “every wind of doctrine” being blown in all directions, and so many in the Church buying into these false, fadish, and “popular” teachers and teachings, “having itching ears,” discernment and the love of sound doctrine is more critical then ever.

Believe me when I say how much I identify with your zeal for “rightly dividing the word of truth.” It is clear, at least to me, that you are very knowledgeable in the Scriptures. I simply want to see your gifts fully utilized “for the common good” and not diminished or tarnished in any way as a result of human reaction rather than by a spiritually led response. No doubt, I among most men, need to follow my own counsel, learned by much trial and error, often needlessly brought about by my own hand and words.

People who have read my writings know that I tend not to “pull any punches” and I definitely have my “hot buttons.” I provoke more than my share of people by what I express and hold dear. Just being who and what I am attracts more than my share of trouble. As the Scripture says, “Do not contend with a man without cause.” What this says to me is that there are times when one may have a legitimate cause to contend with a man. It’s just that we should go out of our way to look for trouble or to stir it up “without (just) cause.”

Forgive me for speaking so much about myself as i find this excess somewhat distasteful. My motive was for the sake of identification and acknowledging my own struggles along these same lines. It is my sincere hope that what I have expressed will be considered, by all who would read it, in the spirit of which it was intended.

Thank you for your indulgence in allowing me to share my thoughts with you.

Humbly and respectfully submitted by “a man of like passions.”

Comment by Fred London | May 25, 2009
Like most others on this thread , i have endeavoured to keep this debate centred on scripture ,this being Gods written word for us,and like most others here, i too have a zeal for pusuing the truth of Gods word in all matters.If in the course of what has transpired on this thread ,i have offended anyone with my attitude , then i do apologise.If you have been offended by the truth of scripture then that is another matter.Many fine bible scholars have no doubt gone before us as regards to this topic. they are and were men of remarkable insight and understanding, why shouldn’t we benefit from their endeavours,the rider here being that we should test all things in the light of scripture.The human mind being what it is will ensure that this debate will continue along the lines of held positions and preconceptions, however , i do believe that there is no mystery surrounding the events of His return and the timing thereof,and so to this end gentlemen , i will lift my game.

Comment by ray | May 26, 2009
Onesimus
The passage found in Rev 11: 15 is just one of many scriptures that challenged my thinking as to the premill position{ which i once held}.This debate that we are having is centred mostly on one thing , and that being the timing of the reign of Christ.[ despite what you may think , i agree fully with the text of Rev 20]
This passage covers the events surrounding the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet[ also found in 1 Cor 15:50] where Christ shall reign” for ever and ever”, where the elders declare that” your wrath came and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints and those who fear you name, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth”
Points that are evident here are
Christ has returned to reign for ever
Gods wrath has come and the dead are judged
The saints are rewarded
The destroyers of the earth are destroyed
The very next passage describes the birth of the male child [christ]
My point here Onesimus is that there are obvious cycles of visions , some being more defined than others.The obvious conclusion when reading Rev 19 into Rev 20 is to conclude that they are a chronological sequence.However my reading of Rev 19 would appear to me as being the end of a cycle with Rev 20 beginning a new vision , starting back at the cross. Any way , i do look forward to hearing your views on this.

Comment by ray | May 26, 2009
Comment by gyod | May 25, 2009:
Ray, where do you see the 2.5 comings of Jesus Christ in premill doctrine?

————-

Gyod,
I think the “half” coming that Ray refers to is the secret pre-trib rapture. If that’s the case he is mistaken in attributing this to “pre-mill” doctrine. Yes adherents to belief in a pre-trib rapture are mostly also pre-millennialist – but not all pre-millennialists believe in a pre-trib rapture. Therefore this so called 2.5 comings has NOTHING to do with premill doctrine.

—————————————–
Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 25, 2009

Onesimus, it’s strange you find the Amplified Version a paraphrase at times

——-
Ian,
Yes it may seem strange. I always thought it was the best translation to use because it seemed to bring out the fullness of the original languages. However those languages are often very specific in the meaning of words depending on the context in which they are used. The AMP doesn’t always take those specific meanings into account.

I also noticed that its version of John 3:16 does NOT translate the text but interprets the text and adds a few thoughts that are not actually in the original.

16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

The terms “greatly” and “dearly prized” are additions to the text that are not in the original – in effect they change the emphasis of the text.

———————————————-
Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 25, 2009

How did the Book of Enoch get into this discussion? It’s part of the OT Apocrypha & not usually regarded as Inspired.
Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 25, 2009
—–

Ian,
It’s actually referenced by Jude in his letter.

——————————–

Ray said:
To Onesimus
In your previous post you say and i quote
David Pawson is a teacher that I have a lot of respect for and his teaching eventually helped me to learn more about what actually happens during the millennium.
You have persistantly disparaged anyone that has made references to other web sites , books or articles as turning to mans wisdom ,is there one rule for you and another rule for others?

—-
Ray,
The only reference to David Pawson’s teaching I have made in this thread relates to his descriptions of the various beliefs regarding the millennium. I have not posted pages of his teaching. I have not referred people to him as an authority on how scripture should be interpreted (instead of accepted for what it actually says).

I have not disparaged anyone who has made reference to other websites books or articles – I have tried to point people primarily to the scriptures. I have tried to get people to use the scriptures AS WRITTEN as their source of truth instead of relying on man’s instruction regarding HOW scripture should be interpreted. There seems to be a common acceptance that scripture alone can not be trusted because it doesn’t mean what it is saying. There is an attitude that we can only understand scripture if we’ve been taught a method of interpretation that ignores the clearest and simplest meaning of the biblical text.
The bible is not an esoteric book that can only be correctly understood through man-made systems of interpretation.

For my “method of interpreting scripture” and my views on Revelation see what I wrote here:

http://onefiles.blogspot.com/2008/07/end-time-prophecy-or-speculation.html

Comment by onesimus | May 26, 2009
To Onesimus
As suggested i did visit your webpage and read through your approach to scripture interpretation.We do have common ground on many things , i have stated previously that scripture stands on its own.We do need to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and yes Tim LaHaye is a blight on the landscape when it comes to this subject.But are we to deny that God has led others into the truth of His word?, just as he has led you and he is leading me . I believe that Gods word is absolute truth and that God is not the author of confusion.By this definition we have to conclude that there are not multiple truths that are all valid, there is only one truth.What iam saying here is that when truth is revealed divinely [ by the Spirit] we should all have the same understanding.
Regarding my comment to Gyod about the 2.5 comings of Christ,there is much about premill doctrine that to amills is confusing to say the least. To me ,some one that believes in premill doctrine and also holds to a pretrib rapture is still a premill. Perhaps these people need to be given another term in order to reduce the confusion.

Comment by ray | May 26, 2009
Onesimus said: “It is part of a clearly described series of events – but for some reason, the ONLY part of this series of events that is removed from its sequential context, its literal meaning “spiritualised” is the part that details Satan’s ultimate defeat. INTERESTING! Could Satan be trying to hide something about his ultimate future?

My response: Or could Satan be deceiving Christians by once again deceiving them that “you shall not surely die” and that there will be a second chance after Jesus returns.

_____________________________________
The only defense of premillennialism is that the reading of Revelation 19 and 20 describe sequential events. That’s what I used to think too. Here are some of the SCRIPTURAL reasons I changed my mind. Notice I said Scripture. One of the great difficulties in the study of Revelation is that it is not interpreted as apocalyptic and rarely are the passages in the OT that are referred to used to help the interpreter and student of this fascinating last book of the Bible.

Here are seven reasons I no longer see that Rev. 19 and 20 list a sequential order:

1- Whenever an angel coming down is described in Revelation there is always a suspension in the sequence. See Rev. 7:2; 10:1 and 18:1 for examples. In 20:1 again we see an angel coming down.

2- After the battle in Rev. 19:17-21 there is no one left so how can there be any unbelievers left? Shouldn’t the only ones left after they are all killed be God’s people?

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

There is no room in this passage for any survivors so where do these unbelieving nations come from that are still in existence for 1000 years?

3- Both wars in Revelation 19 and 20 are patterned after the war in Ezekiel 38 and 39. In Ezk. 38&39 we find the same war described two times, one in 38 and again in 39. Ezekiel is recapitulating and describing the same battle. Since John is following Ezekiel’s pattern throughout Revelation we understand that John is also describing the same battle in back to back chapters, 19 and 20.

4- If 20:1-3 is to follow 19:17-21 it makes no sense to protect the nations from the deceptions of Satan after he has just deceived them all and led them to their slaughter, (see 19:20).

5- In Rev. 15:1 we are told: “Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.”

If the wrath of God is COMPLETE (OR FINISHED) then there can be no wrath to destroy the wicked 1000 years later!

6- Another passage John uses is Isaiah 24:21,22. There the Kings of the earth and the hosts on high (fallen angels) are clearly said to be punished on the Day of the Lord. That is a reference to His return.

7- There is only one ‘physical’ resurrection mentioned in the Bible:

Daniel 12:1,2 – “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 – “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Acts 24:15 – “there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”

The Bible teaches only one physical resurrection … and it is at His return as the above Scriptures teach. That means you can’t have a physical resurrection at the beginning of a 1000 year millennium and then another one 1000 years later.

If the the judgment of the dead is to be in the sequence found in Revelation 20, then you have another judgment of the righteous AFTER the 1000 years according to 2o:11-15.

Here is what Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is a clear description. This is what the early church taught long before John wrote Revelation in 95AD. I believe it is in perfect harmony with what John wrote:

2Thess. 1:6 “…it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe…”

Sound like all the wicked will be destroyed to me, not just some while others continue living for 1000 years longer.

GB

Comment by BB | May 26, 2009
ray said:
To me ,some one that believes in premill doctrine and also holds to a pretrib rapture is still a premill. Perhaps these people need to be given another term in order to reduce the confusion.
————-

I’m not sure that is necessary. The important thing is to keep the two separate doctrines separate.
While both relate to End Times – they are still totally unrelated.

While pre-tribers may be pre-mill; that does not make all pre-mill believers into pre-tribbers.

You said:
“I believe that Gods word is absolute truth and that God is not the author of confusion.By this definition we have to conclude that there are not multiple truths that are all valid, there is only one truth.What iam saying here is that when truth is revealed divinely [ by the Spirit] we should all have the same understanding.”

I could not agree more. And that is why I get so passionate about sticking with scripture. When the scripture states something clearly and simply, then I accept what it says and I don’t try to search for any hidden or complex meaning.

That is why I take what Revelation 20 say about the 1000 year imprisonment of Satan lierally. That is why I take the 1000 year reign of Christ and His saints literally. I can see no reason in that passage, or any where else in scripture, to make those verses mean anything other than what they say.

I also see that the 1000 years comes between several other events – and yet no one seems to make those events into something other than what is is described in that section of scripture. It is only the millennium that has been removed from the stated timing and made into something different to what is described.

I know I’ve said it before, but I can’t help noticing that the only part of this sequence of events to cause so much controversy is the part that describes Satan’s ultimate downfall.

Comment by onesimus | May 26, 2009
Thank you Fred for your honest bluntness.
In recent times I have become painfully aware of how much man’s doctrines and man’s interpretations have been promoted above the clear account of scripture. This particular topic is one of the clearest cases of that happening.

Reading through the list of statements you have drawn from my posts, I can see that my frustration regarding man’s doctrines was being exposed. Most of my quoted comments seem to refer to the clarity and simplicity of scripture and how that simplicity and clarity has been replaced by something more complex and convoluted. Any apparent harshness on my part is more of a display of frustration than an intent to “cast aspersions” against anyone.

I have been personally confronted by far too much falsehood being promoted and embraced by the Christians I’ve met. And that falsehood arises because people prefer to be told what to believe and how to interpret scripture. For some reason people feel safer and more comfortable when they have a tradition or a teacher to follow – even when that tradition or teacher is at odds with scripture.
This controversy surrounding the millennium is on the surface one of the most puzzling because the reference in Revelation 20 IS so easy to understand if taken as written. But the reason for that controversy is quite evident when we recognise that those verses describe a LITERAL imprisonment of Satan, in which he is denied his power to deceive for a 1000 years; followed by his ultimate casting in to the eternal lake of fire.
It’s not surprising that he tries to cover up the truth of his ultimate future.

Comment by onesimus | May 26, 2009
ray: “Rev 20: This passage covers the events surrounding the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet[ also found in 1 Cor 15:50] where Christ shall reign” for ever and ever””

The last trumpet referred to by Paul is not the same as the trumpet of the seventh angel. Paul expects to be understood by the Corinthians, but he wrote years before Revelation was written, so cannot be referring to it. The “last trumpet” is a reference to the feast of trumpets (Leviticus 23:23-25, Numbers 29:1) and the tekiah gedolah, the great trumpet blast, which concludes it. This is the same as the trumpet of God of 1 Thessalonians 4:16. It may also be a reference to the taking of Jericho (Joshua 6:20). At the last trumpet the walls fell down and all the Israelites “went up” into the city. (Is this a foreshadowing of the rapture?)

Comment by Oliver | May 26, 2009
BB asked:
“After the battle in Rev. 19:17-21 there is no one left so how can there be any unbelievers left?”
—–
Answer: Because not every single unbeliever on the earth went to the battle. Those who remain in their own countries are not destroyed at Armageddon.

——————-

BB asked “There is no room in this passage for any survivors so where do these unbelieving nations come from that are still in existence for 1000 years?”
—
Reply: See my earlier answer. Do you think that every unbelieving person in the world all flock to Meggido? Do you think every unbelieving person in the world would even FIT at Meggido?

It is the members of the Beast’s army that are all killed – not the total unbelieving population of the world.
———-
BB said:
“ There is only one ‘physical’ resurrection mentioned in the Bible”

That is clearly wrong because Revelation mentions TWO resurrections. But they are mentioned in the section relating to the millennium so that must be reason enough to ignore it or “spiritualize” it in some way.

Rev 20: They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Those who came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years was ended – which is a second resurrection.

Comment by onesimus | May 26, 2009
BB quoted John 5:28, Acts 24:15 and 2 Thess 1:6 and then said:
“Sound like all the wicked will be destroyed to me, not just some while others continue living for 1000 years longer”.
—
BB, you can’t take a partial revelation from the scriptures and use it to discount a more complete revelation given in another part of scripture. Those verses you quote are not the complete story. They are statements used by the writers to make a specific point within a specific context. They were never intended to reveal a complete timetable of latter day events.
However, the account in Revelation WAS written for the purpose of putting all of the latter day events into their relevant sequential context.

BB, do you have any disagreement with the following sequence of events?

1) The beasts armies gathered at Armageddon
2) The return of Jesus and the defeat of the beast and the false prophet
3) Beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire
4) Judgement, death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.
5) Passing away of the old heaven and earth
6) New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

Comment by onesimus | May 26, 2009
BB: “Here are seven reasons I no longer see that Rev. 19 and 20 list a sequential order:

1- Whenever an angel coming down is described in Revelation there is always a suspension in the sequence. See Rev. 7:2; 10:1 and 18:1 for examples. In 20:1 again we see an angel coming down.”

It is disputable that there is a change in sequence. It is not a clear pattern that must enforce that view of the meaning of the angels’ descending. A perceived pattern is not sufficient justification for ignoring the actual words.

BB: “2- After the battle in Rev. 19:17-21 there is no one left so how can there be any unbelievers left? Shouldn’t the only ones left after they are all killed be God’s people?
…Rev 19: 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army…21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.
…
There is no room in this passage for any survivors so where do these unbelieving nations come from that are still in existence for 1000 years?”

Those who are killed are those in the armies; what about the rest? women, children, men not in the armies? Who are the people in the judgement of the gentiles of Joel 3:1-3 and Matthew 25:31-46 (nations = gentiles in both Hebrew and Greek). Those who inherit the kingdom are those who have treated well “one of these my brethren” so they are not the same as “my brethren”. I believe that “my brethren” are the Jews (the church having been removed at the start of the tribulation), but even if it refers to the church, it shows that the nations/gentiles cannot be the same as the church and are therefore not (yet) saved by faith in Jesus and his atonement for their sins; indeed the judgement is not on that basis. Therefore the kingdom they inherit is still a physical kingdom, namely the Messianic kingdom of the millennium.?

BB: “3- Both wars in Revelation 19 and 20 are patterned after the war in Ezekiel 38 and 39. In Ezk. 38&39 we find the same war described two times, one in 38 and again in 39. Ezekiel is recapitulating and describing the same battle. Since John is following Ezekiel’s pattern throughout Revelation we understand that John is also describing the same battle in back to back chapters, 19 and 20.”

Again you are stretching patterns that you perceive into a straightjacket for interpretation. I don’t agree that Ezekiel is giving two descriptions of the same battle, nor that John is following Ezekiel as a pattern. In any case, if Ezekiel were describing the same event twice, there is no indication of time lapse within his description, whereas Revelation specifically says that there will be a lapse of 1000 years between two battles.

If your system of interpretation requires you to distort the text and ignore what it explicitly says, there must be something wrong with your system.

BB: “4- If 20:1-3 is to follow 19:17-21 it makes no sense to protect the nations from the deceptions of Satan after he has just deceived them all and led them to their slaughter, (see 19:20).”

As we have seen, it is only the armies and their leaders that were destroyed in Rev 19.

BB: “5- In Rev. 15:1 we are told: “Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.”

If the wrath of God is COMPLETE (OR FINISHED) then there can be no wrath to destroy the wicked 1000 years later!”

I disagree. The wrath of God against one set of sinners is complete. There may still be wrath against a new set.

BB: “6- Another passage John uses is Isaiah 24:21,22. There the Kings of the earth and the hosts on high (fallen angels) are clearly said to be punished on the Day of the Lord. That is a reference to His return.”

Isaiah 24:21-23: “At that time the LORD will punish the heavenly forces in the heavens and the earthly kings on the earth. They will be imprisoned in a pit, locked up in a prison, and after staying there for a long time, they will be punished.

The full moon will be covered up, the bright sun will be darkened; for the LORD who commands armies will rule
on Mount Zion in Jerusalem in the presence of his assembly, in majestic splendour.”

So the kings of the earth are destroyed (Rev 19); Satan is bound in the pit (Rev 20) and after a “long time” — 1000 years (Rev 20) — he will finally be punished. (It seems from Isaiah that all evil spirits are included with him, though they are not mentioned in Rev 20.) In the meantime the Lord will rule from Jerusalem — on earth.

BB: “7- There is only one ‘physical’ resurrection mentioned in the Bible:…
The Bible teaches only one physical resurrection … and it is at His return as the above Scriptures teach. That means you can’t have a physical resurrection at the beginning of a 1000 year millennium and then another one 1000 years later.”

Rev 20:4-5: “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.”

So the bible directly contradicts you again. You have to take what it says, not what you think it ought to say.

Revelation expands on earlier prophecies, both in the matter of the length of the Messianic kingdom and in the matter of how and when the dead are raised. “The resurrection” is not an event that occurs at a single point of time. The first resurrection is of the righteous and comprises:
1. The resurrection of Jesus
2. The resurrection of the church saints
3. The resurrection of the OT saints
4. The resurrection of the faithful killed during the tribulation

These are obviously not all at the same time. But they are all of the first category.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the wicked for the judgement of Revelation 20:11-15. It comes 1000 years after the end of the first resurrection.

BB: “Here is what Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is a clear description. This is what the early church taught long before John wrote Revelation in 95AD. I believe it is in perfect harmony with what John wrote:

2Thess. 1:6 …9 These shall be punished…in that Day…”

Sound like all the wicked will be destroyed to me, not just some while others continue living for 1000 years longer.”

The expression “that Day” comprises the whole time of the end, not a single 24-hour period. It is a period that begins with the removal of the church and ends with the final resurrection of the wicked and their condemnation to the lake of fire, followed by the new heaven and new earth.

Comment by Oliver | May 26, 2009
Yet another indication that the tribulation saints are not the same as the church:

1 Corinthians 6:3 “Do you not know that we will judge angels? Why not ordinary matters!”

Revelation 20:4: “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshipped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand…”

So the church saints have the authority to judge; but those with authority to judge are distinguished from those beheaded during the tribulation, who do not have that authority at the time of their resurrection. Therefore those beheaded during the tribulation are not part of the church.

Comment by Oliver | May 26, 2009
Amilleniests followers should know that by all logical and reasonable thinking, which some 14 year olds are better at than some ‘doctors’ of theology, the church will not have to consider the Antichrist ot the false prophet. According to the intepretation of their leaders, the antichrist and the false prophet is already in the lake of fire, because any reasonable person will read in Revelation that the 1000 years start after these two were cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Perhaps this is not a problem at all to them, for with fancy footwork anything can be ‘explained’. Yet, the Lord have mercy on them for the blood of their followers if the antichrist is to appear, and because of their doctrine, their followers do not recognise him or the danger of taking the mark.

Same with pre-tribbers. The Lord have mercy on you if the antichrist appears and you tell believers it can’t be him because we will be raptured before he arrives. Rather have no doctrinal position than potentially having blood on your hands.

Comment by Francois | May 26, 2009
Onesimus, we could open a whole new thread on books like Enoch & the other OT & NT apocryphal writings, & that COULD be interesting, to say the least. Yes, Jude does quote Enoch, but it’s still not a book to base discussions on, even if we had complete translations available. Only the Ethiopian Orthodox Church now regards it as Scripture, so that does rather limit its usefulness.
With regard to John 3: 16 in the Amplified Version, the word ‘love’ is from the agape root which is a far more intense word than our simple ‘love’ & hence the ‘greatly’ & ‘dearly prized’ addition. There is no translation which can completely be free of translators’ interpretation, even in the punctuation which is not in the original languages. John 9 is a perfect example. The addition of a fullstop after Jesus says, “Neither this man sinned nor his parents.” changes the whole interpretation of the passage. The implication that God made him blind to get glory from the healing comes purely from the traditional punctuation, but stands alone in the NT as implying God would do such a thing. That punctuation comes from the ‘blueprint’ theology of Augustine & Calvin rather than the God I see in Jesus.

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 26, 2009
Let me put forth two passages which indicate that there will in fact be survivors among the nations (unredeemed) who cross over into the Millenium.

“For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them and will send SURVIVORS from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Meshech, Rosh, tubal, and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have not heard My fame and seen my glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. Then your brethren (Jews) from all the nations as a grain offering to the Lord, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord” – Is. 66:18-20.

“Then it will come about that ANY WHO ARE LEFT OF ALL THE NATIONS THAT WENT AGAINST JERUSALEM will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths” – Zech. 14:16,

Comment by Fred London | May 26, 2009
onesimus wrote:

Thank you Fred for your honest bluntness.
In recent times I have become painfully aware of how much man’s doctrines and man’s interpretations have been promoted above the clear account of scripture. This particular topic is one of the clearest cases of that happening.

Reading through the list of statements you have drawn from my posts, I can see that my frustration regarding man’s doctrines was being exposed. Most of my quoted comments seem to refer to the clarity and simplicity of scripture and how that simplicity and clarity has been replaced by something more complex and convoluted. Any apparent harshness on my part is more of a display of frustration than an intent to “cast aspersions” against anyone.

I have been personally confronted by far too much falsehood being promoted and embraced by the Christians I’ve met. And that falsehood arises because people prefer to be told what to believe and how to interpret scripture. For some reason people feel safer and more comfortable when they have a tradition or a teacher to follow – even when that tradition or teacher is at odds with scripture.
This controversy surrounding the millennium is on the surface one of the most puzzling because the reference in Revelation 20 IS so easy to understand if taken as written. But the reason for that controversy is quite evident when we recognise that those verses describe a LITERAL imprisonment of Satan, in which he is denied his power to deceive for a 1000 years; followed by his ultimate casting in to the eternal lake of fire.
It’s not surprising that he tries to cover up the truth of his ultimate future.

Comment by onesimus | May 26, 2009

Onesimus,

First, I appreciate your gracious response. Secondly, please know that I can completely identify with your frustrations as they have not been unknown to me as well.
There is no question that sound doctrine is a real premium these days, and it is no wonder that “My people are led astray from lack of knowledge.”

One of the great Bible teachers of the 20th century had a rather simple approach to Biblical interpretation. “When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense…” There is more to his definition, but it is founded upon that original principle. Truly, there are a variety of way Christian can be “corrupted from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” Certainly, one of those ways is making Biblical interpretation a lot more complicated than it needs to be, along with adding above and beyond the originally intended meaning. I believe we can maintain simplicity without being simplistic.

Obviously, The Bible is filled with an assortment of symbolism and in the vast majority of cases, God informs the prophet when symbolism is being expressed and interprets it, accordingly. It is no secret that Jesus spoke in parables. However, it must be stressed that when Jesus used symbolism he let it be known. “Behold, I speak in a parable…” He took all the guess-work and speculation out of the equation.

In reading letter which Paul wrote to the Ephesians and the Collisians, in particular, he spoke in terms of such spiritual depth that most people in the Church today would have trouble in grasping these spiritual truths. And yet, though the vast majority of Gentile believers were illiterate in those days, they apparently understood what Paul was conveying to them.

We must keep in mind that Paul was not interested in impressing anyone by his knowledge and intellect, but in communicating Christ and God’s eternal purposes. Along with that was his expressed concern for sound doctrine. How often do we hear, what I consider to be the pseud-spiritual statement, “I’m not into doctrine!” It may give the appearance of spirituality, but that attitude runs contrary to Scripture.

Well, I didn’t intend on writing an entire essay, so I’ll conclude my thoughts…….. for the moment.

Comment by Fred London | May 26, 2009
Amilleniests followers should know that by all logical and reasonable thinking, which some 14 year olds are better at than some ‘doctors’ of theology, the church will not have to consider the Antichrist ot the false prophet. According to the intepretation of their leaders, the antichrist and the false prophet is already in the lake of fire, because any reasonable person will read in Revelation that the 1000 years start after these two were cast into the lake of fire.

Hi Francois. And I could say that some 14 years can spell better than you but what would that accomplish. Amills teach that Satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations in order to assemble them together. Once he is loosed he will go to the nations and deceive them with lying signs and wonders to assemble them under the antichrist and the false prophet to attack God’s people.

We believe exactly as the posttribs believe. And the amill position warns against taking the mark of the beast. The only difference is that we see that when Jesus comes it will end in judgment and a new heavens and earth with no 1000 years to follow. Jesus is not coming to rule over secular nations full of unbelievers.

Comment by BB | May 27, 2009
Oliver
Your previous post [126] you quote me as using Rev 20 in illustrating the purpose of the last trumpet.This is incorrect, the reference i made was to Rev 15: 11. You know ,its better to cut and paste …. and that sort of stuff.
Anyway ,i was highlighting this passage to contrast the definite change in vision from the consumation of this age to the next vision of the birth of Christ and the church.
The passage in 1 Cor 15:50 says
I TELL YOU THIS BROTHERS: FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD{this should put to bed any notion of mortals entering the 1000years as you believe}
v52 IN A MOMENT , IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE ,AT THE LAST TRUMPET [how many last trumpets are there?]FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND , AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.
At Christs return all are raised imperishable, this is indeed the second resurection[ the first being raised to new life in Christ]
By comparing scripture with scripture , we see that these two passages are describing the same event because they both occur at the last trumpet.These symbols are placed in scripture for our understanding so that we are able to link different passages together to gain a complete picture.
Further to this point , with our God given ability to reason,we are able to link the passage in 1Thess 4;16 to the same passages above because the Lord will descend from heaven at the sound of the trumpet.Again in Matt 24 : 31
AND HE WILL SEND OUT HIS ANGELS WITH A LOUD TRUMPET CALL AND THEY WILL GATHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS,FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.
The trumpet heralds Christs return , and this is the last trumpet.
When the Lord returns [at the last trumpet ] we can be assured that 2Thess 1:7
AND TO GRANT RELIEF TO YOU WHO ARE AFFLICTED AS WELL AS TO US , WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS IN FLAMING FIRE , INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND ON THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. THEY WILL SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, AWAY FROM THE PRESCENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS MIGHT.[no literal 1000 yr reign here]
Again we can be assured that when Christ returns at the last trumpet that 2 Peter 3:10
BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME LIKE A THIEF[reference this with Matt 24:43, again comparing scripture with scripture this is the same event]AND THEN THE HEAVENS WILL PASS AWAY WITH A ROAR, AND THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL BE BURNED UP AND DISSOLVED AND THE EARTH AND THE WORKS THAT ARE DONE ON IT WILL BE EXPOSED. SINCE ALL THESE THINGS ARE THUS TO BE DISSOLVED, WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE IN LIVES OF HOLINESS AND GODLINESS, WAITING FOR AND HASTENING THE COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, BECAUSE OF WHICH THE HEAVENS WILL BE SET ON FIRE AND DISSOLVED AND THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL MELT AS THEY BURN. BUT ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE WE ARE WAITING FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, IN WHICH RIGHTEOUSNESS DWELLS[no room here for a literal 1000yr kingdom]
Oliver, it quite clear that Paul often wrote under guidance of the Holy Spirit, to declare that Paul had no fore knowledge of what John would see and write is to question the work of the spirit.If OT prophets saw what John saw , then it not inconceivable that Paul was given prophetic insight.
It has become apparent that you and your fellow premill believers have differing views on the rapture .Is it possible that you could clarify this , because as Onesimus has stated” while both relate to end times – they are still totally unrelated” How can this be?
I would assert yet again that the events surrounding Christs return and indeed the times we live in ,have a simple and understandable explanation in the bible.By comparing scripture with scripture , following the clues , understanding the symbolism and use of numbers, you have to be blind not to see it.

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
To Fred
One of the great bible teachers of the the 20th century had a rather simple approach to biblical interpretation ” when th e plain sense of scripture makes common sense seek no other sense
…………………………
Fred , does this great bible teacher have a name?. Would the use of this principle of biblical interpretation not be tantamount to using mans wisdom to interpret the bible?
You mentioned before in a previous post regarding Isreal in the light of eschatology, is it possible to expound on that?

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
BB asked:
“After the battle in Rev. 19:17-21 there is no one left so how can there be any unbelievers left?”
—–
Onesimus answered: Because not every single unbeliever on the earth went to the battle. Those who remain in their own countries are not destroyed at Armageddon.

My response:

The Scripture teaches differently. We’re told that “the whole world” is gathered by Satan, not just a military army.

Rev.16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

It is again made very clear in Rev 19 that Jesus doesn’t just strike an army, but “the nations”. We’re also told that those killed INCLUDE “the flesh of ALL PEOPLE”:

Rev. 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

To say there will be survivors is to reject the clear teaching of Rev. 16 and Rev. 19. The only reason of course you need survivors is because you need nations for Jesus to rule over. That is forcing the premlll theory onto the text.

All who are not of God are not sealed and have the mark of the beast. Whether they are in the exact same location or not, they worship the beast and follow him and are enemies of Christ. Why should Christ spare them? He doesn’t according to 2Thess. 1:7ff. Also the seven last plagues are poured out on all with the mark of the beast. So why shouldn’t Christ’s final judgment? Remember, with the seven last plagues, the wrath of God is FINISHED!
——————-

BB asked “There is no room in this passage for any survivors so where do these unbelieving nations come from that are still in existence for 1000 years?”
—
Reply: See my earlier answer. Do you think that every unbelieving person in the world all flock to Meggido? Do you think every unbelieving person in the world would even FIT at Meggido?

It is the members of the Beast’s army that are all killed – not the total unbelieving population of the world.

My response: Also see my remarks above. You are forcing your interpretation onto the text. We are clearly told that ALL PEOPLE will be killed. Texts like 2Thess. 1:7ff and 2Peter 3 teach a total wrath on all those marked by the beast …not just those who happen to be near the physical loction of ‘megiddo’.

Comment by BB | May 27, 2009
Onesimus has stated” while both relate to end times – they are still totally unrelated” How can this be?
Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
—-

Some Americans have Hispanic roots. Does that mean that all Americans are Hispanic? Does the fact that most Americans aren’t Hispanic mean that no Hispanics are American?

Pre-millenialists belive that Satan’s will be bound and imprisoned for 1000 literal years and will not be able to deceive the nations for that period (funnily enough this is exactly what scripture says). They also believe that Christ will reign on earth for those 1000 years and that His saints will reign with Him (as scripture also says). The fact that some people see that believers will be snatched from the earth about 7 years before this happens does not mean that ALL pre-mill believers need to hold that view of the rapture.

Ray also said:
I would assert yet again that the events surrounding Christs return and indeed the times we live in ,have a simple and understandable explanation in the bible.By comparing scripture with scripture , following the clues , understanding the symbolism and use of numbers, you have to be blind not to see it.
———-

Yes those events DO have a simple and understandable explanation in the bible. It is found by reading and accepting the simple and understandable text itself without the need to perform theological gymnastics.

So far I’ve received no answer to this simple question:

Do you have any disagreement with the following sequence of events?

1) The beast’s armies gathered at Armageddon
2) The return of Jesus and the defeat of the beast and the false prophet
3) Beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire
4) Judgement, death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.
5) Passing away of the old heaven and earth
6) New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

Comment by onesimus | May 27, 2009
To Oliver , sorry the passage i meant was Rev 11:15 , you can check this against my original post.

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
When Jesus comes back the Millenial Kingdom will begin. It’s too straightforward in the Bible to be any other way. We can’t be in the Millenium right now b/c Jesus hasn’t come back. When He comes He will set up His Kingship over the entire earth for 1,000 years. He will rule over every part of society and the purpose is for complete restoration of the earth for the Father to come down with the New Jerusalem and dwell with His people on earth. He will bring the earth back to how it was before the fall. Also, Satan has to be bound before the Millenial Reign begins and we know Satan isn’t bound yet therefore we aren’t in the Millenium. I’ll eloborate on any questions you may have.

Comment by David | May 27, 2009
To Onesimus
Regarding your question as to the sequence of events as described in Rev 20, i believe this to correct , but i also believe that this will occur when Christ returns at the end of this age.
The question i put to Oliver regarding his opinion on the rapture, i am hoping to hear his side of the argument,as i said previously, if you believe in premill as well a pretrib rapture , you are still premill.
Also Onesimus , iam not performing theological gymnastics in understanding scripture.All scripture is there for our consideration and understanding.In fact , i will state here that the more i read Scripture the more amazed i am that over a long period of time and with many contributors, the bible has common themes that run from cover to cover that are consistent through its entire text. This as we know is no coincidence but only through divine utterance. Again , where the bible has parralel passages , these cannot be ignored, if you would take the time to read again the passages i have outlined above , you cannot discount that they are the same event.Blessings.

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
David – have you also posted as “Joel”?

Comment by endtimespropheticwords | May 27, 2009
Onesimus said: Those who came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years was ended – which is a second resurrection.

My response: The first resurrection is not a ‘physical’ resurrection. Only ‘the souls’ of those martyred are said to ‘come to life’. The physical resurrection of the body only comes after the 1000 years as described in 20:11-15. The premill view teaches that there are TWO “physical” resurrections of the body. That is not the teaching of Revelation 20.

—

Onesimus asked: BB, do you have any disagreement with the following sequence of events?

1) The beasts armies gathered at Armageddon
2) The return of Jesus and the defeat of the beast and the false prophet
3) Beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire
4) Judgement, death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.
5) Passing away of the old heaven and earth
6) New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

My reply: As an overview, I agree totally.

Comment by BB | May 27, 2009
BB & Ray,
You both agree to the sequence of events I described. They are exactly the sequence of events described in Rev 19 onwards. However one event from that sequence starting in Rev 19 was left out of my list – the millennium. Again it seems very interesting to me that ALL the other events are accepted, but the ONE event that describes a 1000 year end to Satan’s deceptive power followed by his ultimate downfall is explained away and discounted.
Why that ONE event? Why is that any different to those other events in the sequence that you accept? Why aren’t they given the same “symbolic” interpretations that you give to the 1000 year of Christ on earth?

Comment by onesimus | May 27, 2009
Onesimus
While i do agree with the sequence of events as you have stated,the millennium is not mentioned until chapter 20.I know that you believe this to be sequential and i cant speak personally for BB , but as you know ,I do not agree that the events of Rev 19 into Rev 20 are sequential.

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
Ray said:
Onesimus
While i do agree with the sequence of events as you have stated,the millennium is not mentioned until chapter 20.I know that you believe this to be sequential and i cant speak personally for BB , but as you know ,I do not agree that the events of Rev 19 into Rev 20 are sequential.
—

The chapter divisions are not part of the original text and therefore offer no logical division to separate the events. All of the events that you agree as being sequential are described in order from chapter 19 onwards.

Also, Your claim that you “do not agree that the events of Rev 19 into Rev 20 are sequential” is questionable. The list of sequential events to which you have agreed was taken from Rev 19,20 & 21!

You have already agreed that every event I described (leaving out the millennium) IS sequential. Some of those events precede the millennium, others come after it.
The reality is that for some reason you believe that ONLY millennium is not part of the sequential list of events given in those chapters.

Comment by onesimus | May 27, 2009
From Rev 19 – 21

1) THE BEAST’S ARMIES GATHERED AT ARMAGEDDON

(19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army)

2) THE RETURN OF JESUS* AND THE DEFEAT OF THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET

(11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. )

(20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image… 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, )

3) BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET THROWN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

(Rev19:20b. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur)

[1000 YEAR IMPRISONMENT OF SATAN AND 1000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST & HIS SAINTS etc. – the Millennium (20:1-10)]

4) JUDGEMENT, DEATH AND HADES THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

(Rev 20: 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. )

5) PASSING AWAY OF CURRENT HEAVEN & EARTH
6) NEW HEAVEN, NEW EARTH, NEW JERUSALEM.

(Revelation 21.)

*As can be noticed above, the one event I got out of sequence was the return of Jesus which is recorded in Rev 19:11-16. It is in response to Jesus return that the beast and the false prophet raise their armies to make war against Jesus and His army.

Comment by onesimus | May 27, 2009
Mike,

I saw it like thirty minutes ago, i think.

I also believe that there will be a literal 1000 year reign. I think the tribulation has to happen first and then Jesus will come back.

Comment by Shamila | May 27, 2009
Onesimus: You didn’t ask what was missing. You only asked if we agreed with the sequence or order of events you listed. You also left out the binding and loosing of Satan as well as the resurrection.

More importantly you left out what starts that sequence you listed…. THE REMOVAL OF THE RESTRAINER! There is a loosing that enables Satan to go to the Kings of the Earth and the whole world to deceive them. That should have been number one. God permits Satan to go to all the nations and deceive them in order to assemble them for the battle.

So why didn’t Satan assemble the nations for the last 2000 years? It’s because he has been restrained by God from doing so. This long period of time that Satan has been restrained from assembling the nations to attack God’s people is this long period of time John symbolizes by 1000 years.

Comment by BB | May 27, 2009
Fred writes:
One of the great bible teachers of the the 20th century had a rather simple approach to biblical interpretation, ”When the plain sense of scripture makes common, sense seek no other sense.”
…………………………
Fred , does this great bible teacher have a name?. Would the use of this principle of biblical interpretation not be tantamount to using mans wisdom to interpret the bible?
You mentioned before in a previous post regarding Isreal in the light of eschatology, is it possible to expound on that?

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009

The Bible teacher’s name is Anton Darms. He is simply laying down some sound gramamtical principles to enable one to interpret Scripture more accurately. He is suggesting the use of recognized grammatical principles as tools to be used that should lead to a more accurate interpretation of Scripture, but leaving that process and it where it ultimately takes you between you and God, absent of doctrinal preconceived notions. What he is saying is that if you are true to the process that chances are greatly improved that your interpretation will be accurate according to God’s intended meaning. These are technical grammatical tools to be used to discover the correct interpretation of Scripture, and not to steer you one way or the other towards a particular interpretation or doctrinal belief. I do not look upon these principles as an expression of “man’s wisdom,” but rather fundamental laws of grammer long since established over many centuries. They are technical laws of grammer and rhetoric which enables one to comprehend and to communicate more clearly and effectively. However, it allows the substance of what is communicated to the findings and concictions of the writer. And if the individual is a true Berean, he will endeavor to pursue and accept what he finds without partiality.

As to your question about Israel as it relates to eschatology, to begin with, Paul stated that he magnified his ministry to the Gentiles in order that the Jews would be provoked to a spiritual jealousy (Rom. 11:14). The Church being all she was called to be is not an end in itself, but a means to an end towards fulfilling her ministry and obligation to provoking the Jews to a godly jealousy, and in doing so, making herself ready for her Bridegroom, even “hastening the day…..” as referred to in II Peter 3:12.

As part of this process, the Church must return to a “simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” She must learn to travel light, so to speak. She must return to her original God-given, Biblical structure of leadership and corporate function. It must be Christ-centered, meaning, He must have preeminence, and not just in lip service. She must become less reliant on man and things. She must prepare to be able to, not only adapt, but even flourish, amidst loss and devastation. The Church must reject the popular notion of, “Hey, we can be just as good as the world!” The Church was never called to be “just as good as the world.” She was called to be something, someone, totally different from this world, driven by a totally different life source. In fact, it, or rather, she, was literally called to reflect something out of this world. We must remember, Israel’s failings had much to do with her wanting to be “like the other nations.”

As to Israel, there is much to be gleaned from the well-known account of Jesus and His dear friend, Lazarus. Our natural love would have rushed to Lazarus’ side in order to save him from further suffering and death. God’s love does not simply look to the present, but also, and more importantly, to the future, to bring about a desired result, consistent with His eternal purposes, “for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen, are eternal.” There are times when the thing you love most and hold the most dear must be allowed to enter the crucible in order that, and that is always the operative term, “in order that…” God is always after something, His desired end result, for the personal, corporate, and eternal good. It will bring glory to God through the conformity to His Son which is unreachable apart from the Cross.

Lazarus had to endure suffering and death prior to experiencing resurrection life. “Jesus wept.” He was not insensitive nor indifferent. Contrary, to human nature, he literally loved Lazarus to the point of death. Why? Because, God was after something, far beyond the natural, the temporary. Therefore, with our spiritual eyes, we can see Lazarus as a type of Israel. We then may begin to get a glimpse of how God intends to deal with Israel “in order that” He may ultimately restore her unto Himself. Joseph, another type of Christ, was sold into slavery “in order that…” a mighty nation would be born. The natural human response of, “Surely, this shall never happen to you,” though well intended, often does not serve the purpose of God. There are countless other Biblical examples to reinforce this point. However, make no mistake, the Abrahamic Covenant of those who would bless or curse Israel is a perpetual spiritual principle which has never changed.

Another holocaust is on the horizon. The Jews will once again be subjected to a persecution of demonic proportions, but neither will the Church be spared from a similar fate. Though the vast majority of Jews reside in other nations, there will yet be another dispersion of Jews from the Land of Israel. They will be brought to a place where they will no longer be able to have confidence in their natural abilities (“make the arm of flesh their strength”). They will be brought to a place of utter human despair and hopelessness. God will not establish an unrepentant people to take permanent inheritance and possession of His Land. God’s preconditions for this fulfillment is consistent from Genesis onward. You bear the image of God, you possess the Land. You lose the image of God, you lose possession of the Land. Acquire the image of God, you are restored to possession of the Land. And, yes, there are many Scriptural examples to bear this out.

Many will ask, “What about Israel becoming a nation after the Holocaust of World War II?” As a people, what came out from Europe to help establish the nation of Israel was essentially a people who were broke, but not broken in the Scriptural-spiritual sense. This is the true definition of repentance, “a true godly sorrow,” apart from which can never lead to true salvation. We must not confuse worldly sorrow with godly sorrow. Pumping our fists in the air while declaring “never again,” by our own devices does not express the godly repentance spoken of in Scripture. Not until they are ready to declare, “our strength is dried up,” will God be able to truly deliver them by “His might and power.”

Revelation 12 is only one example of the Church’s and Israel’s ultimate destinies being intertwined. In the “end of days,” as the Roman centurion was converted through revelation of who Christ truly was as He subjected Himself to the Cross, so to, will the Jews (Israel who is truly Israel) be converted (circumcised in heart) as they see the Church manifest Christ through their willful subjection to the Cross. Many will manifest Christ through the bearing of their Cross leading to salvation of the Jews, many at the expense of their own lives. This is where the analogy of Corrie Ten-Boom-type ministry enters in. The true Church, who has made Herself ready, “in simplicity and purity by their devotion to Christ,” will be dispersed throughout the world. They will be as a God-made net intended to catch fish of a Jewish sort. And, it will be a net leading to spiritual deliverance. The Biblically mandated Gentiles’ debt to the Jews, will finally be PAID IN FULL. Then, and only then, will the Jews, who have been circumcised in heart as well as flesh, be restored to the Land for all time. This is consistent with God’s ways, from Genesis to Revelation. To say the least, this is certainly not consistent with the ways of men……but, then again, isn’t that what led to Jesus’ rebuke of Peter? May it not be said of us!

Comment by Fred London | May 27, 2009
To BB

If amills warn against taking the mark then do they believe the antichrist(beast) of Revelation will appear and be cast into the lake of fire before the 1000 years(which will not happen)start? Sorry the question obviously doesn’t make sense.

Ray does not believe Rev 20 follows 19 chronologically. This is very puzzling. Onesimus has laid before us a sequence which is acceptable into which the 1000 years are ‘fitted’ by the Lord.

Considering that amills do warn against the mark, according to you, I think that our different views on what happens after the Lord appears does not matter a lot. Both positions in question expect the coming of the Lord while gauging it on the signs of the times. Both warn against the beast and the taking of the mark. It is just so strange that different doctrines can develop over time and the creative defense of these, often in the face of and against the obvious.

I think there are other aspects of the 2 positions that are probably more relevant to us today.

The saving of the remnant of Israel for one.
There is an infatuation with Israel today which is wrong and very dangerous but there are certain opinions that God will not deal with Israel again as a nation which is also wrong. I would like to see some honest thoughts about this without doctrinal positions and the conflicting views of theologists of times past and present. Who can say one theologist or teacher is to be trusted over another? Both were educated and seeked the Lord but came up with conflicting ideas. An honest and perhaps more simple look at scripture is neccessary.

Comment by Francois | May 27, 2009
To Oliver
May 26 post [129]
The expression ” that day” comprises the whole time of the end , and not a single 24 hr period.It is a period that begins with the removal of the church and ends with the final ressurection of the wicked and their condemnation to the lake of fire, followed by the new heaven and new earth.
………………………………………………
So lets be clear about this , a 1000yrs is a thousand years,right[ in your understanding] and ” that day” is not 24 hrs but is in fact 1007 yrs ,using the pretrb premill calculator. Am i correct?, if so this is ultra confusing because of another statement made on the same post

Oliver said May 26
If your system of interpretation requires you to distort the text and ignore what it explicitly says there must be something wrong with your system

……………………………….
Yeah , well said, so just what sort of interpretive method are you using?

Oliver said May 26 in reply to a question from BB
I disagree, the wrath of God against one set of sinners is complete.There may still be wrath against a new set.
………………………………………………
Im sorry Oliver ,but when confronted with solid scriptural evidence that throws insight on to a subject , the best you can come up with is to refute it with some stupid conjecture.Whether i agree with others on this thread or not , at least they are endeavouring to back their arguments with scripture, is it too much for you to do the same?

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
Onesimus
On your own web page you make a suggestion that people read Matt 24 as an introduction to end times understanding.This is of course a very good passage of scripture to read at any time.My question here is , are you able from this chapter to define a literal 1000yr earthly reign of Christ?.
Also , if you believe that Rev 19 is sequential into Rev 20, does this hold true for Rev 11 into Rev 12.i look forward to your reply

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009
While coming in at the tail end (or is it the tail end?!) of the discussion (which seems generally to have been conducted in a amicable and gentle manner) and being myself one who fully accepts the reality of a 1000 year rule of Christ, some of the following questions might still be profitably considered:-
First by those who think the millenium (Christ’s kingdom) is now – is Satan really bound? He seems to be very much on the loose!
Whereas there are difficulties in all the positions discussed, a post-tribulational coming followed by the millenial rule of Christ seems to be the best fit to all the scriptures. As books have been mentioned, Robert Gundry’s “THe Church and the Tribulation” (1973) is not too long and while not answering every amillenial or premillenial rapture question deals very clearly with a good number of them. It is now out of print but can be found in second-hand book Websites.
The big question to be answered by “milleniallists” – of whom I am one – is surely as follows: – In the overall teaching of the New Testament, the absolute pinnacle and climax of God’s purposes is the church living in the New Covenant. This is most seen in Ephesians – the church is God’s masterpiece, planned by Him before anything else ever existed but kept hidden in his heart and revealed in “these last days” “to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit”. The masterpiece having come to birth, what need is there of a following seeming reversion (albeit only for a thousand years, a blink of an eye in eternity) to an earthly kingdom? – where there is still marriage, giving in marriage and one in which sin still exists, no matter how restrained it obviously will be (Is.65.20, and no matter how wonderful and gloriously Christ is seen in His saints? I am sure it is this question which pushes many saints into an amillenial position (wrongly because we must live by “every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God” – whether we can intellectually sort it out or not).
The question is heightened by the fact that in the millenium many Old Covenant ordinances seem to be brought into effect once more (at least for Israel. but some for the Gentiles), including the sabbath (Is.66.23) and sacrifices and Old covenant feasts celebrated in the millenial temple seen by Ezekiel. So for those of us who believe in the millenial rule of our Lord, the main (and perhaps most profitable) question is – WHY the millenium? WHat is the purpose of God in it in the context of an eternal plan to have a bride for the Son? What would not be accomplished or seen in the works of God if there were no millenium?
In the midst of this discussion as has already been so well said, let us keep on preaching the gospel, including our Lord’s return to judge the living and the dead (no matter how clearly we think we understand these timings or otherwise).

Comment by Friend of Muslims | May 27, 2009
Dispensationalism hasn’t been around that long. C.I. Scofeild and Lewis Sperry Chafer made it up. In light of this, most maneline Christians need to examine their eschatology. “The mellinial Reign” almost definitely refers to the Church age, whether it refers to the Church now (amellinialism) or whether it refers to a golden age of the church that is yet to come (postmellinialism). I would encourage all Christians to study their history and examine everything they believe. It is imperitive to worshiping and proclaiming Christ.

Here’s a good place to start:
http://store.nicenecouncil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=671

Comment by Tyler Ray | May 27, 2009
Ray, what you originally wrote was, “The passage found in Rev 11: 15 is just one of many scriptures that challenged my thinking as to the premill position{ which i once held}.This debate that we are having is centred mostly on one thing , and that being the timing of the reign of Christ.[ despite what you may think , i agree fully with the text of Rev 20]
This passage covers the events surrounding the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet[ also found in 1 Cor 15:50…”

I misunderstood which bit of Revelation you were referring to. I should have taken better note of the brackets.

Comment by Oliver | May 27, 2009
Ray, there is a range of views among pre-millennialists about the timing of the rapture. I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture just before the antichrist signs a treaty with national Israel at he start of the last 7 years. Some believe that the rapture takes place in the middle of the tribulation, after the first 3.5 years. Finally, others, such as onesimus, it appears, believe in the rapture at the end of the tribulation at Jesus’ return to earth.

I gave my reasons for believing in a pre-tribulational rapture in an earlier post in this topic. Although someone expressed “fatigue”, no one has yet shown anything to counter those reasons.

One of the sources for my education about eschatology is the book, “Footprints of the Messiah” by Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum (ISBN 0-914863-10-X), which examines all end-times prophecy throughout the bible in great detail.

Comment by Oliver | May 27, 2009
Ray: “to declare that Paul had no fore knowledge of what John would see and write is to question the work of the spirit”

The reason I think that Paul is not talking about the last of the 7 trumpets is that he is writing to a contemporary church who have no knowledge of what John will write 40 or 50 years later. Clearly the Holy Spirit did know, but the recipients of the letter did not. It was not revealed until later. However the feast of trumpets was already revealed and it did have a “last trumpet” so it seems much more reasonable to take Paul as referring to that. The Corinthian church certainly could not have understood it to refer to John’s future vision, since they could know nothing about that.

In that case the last trumpet is the final trumpet blast of the feast of trumpets on Rosh Hashana (new year) which leads up to the day of atonement and then the feast of tabernacles. Therefore Christ’s second coming and the events around it will fulfill the autumn feasts in the same way that his first coming fulfilled the spring feasts and the birth of the church fulfilled the feast of Weeks.

There are more than one set of trumpet blasts in the bible, so it is not adequate to assert arbitrarily that only one of them can be the one referred to. You ignored what I said about the feast of trumpets and merely repeated your assertion that Paul must be referring to the same one as John. How do you justify ignoring the only trumpets that the Corinthians could have known about?

Ray: “The passage in 1 Cor 15:50 says
I TELL YOU THIS BROTHERS: FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD{this should put to bed any notion of mortals entering the 1000years as you believe}”

There is more than one meaning for the “kingdom of God”. If it only means living with Jesus after the resurrection, as you suggest, what do you make of this passage: “And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.” (Mark 9:1) Since this was to happen before their death, it cannot be referring to the resurrection, can it?

Furthermore, you have not paid any attention to the fact that the sheep gentiles/nations are not the same as “these my brethren”, which must be either the Jews or the church. And the basis for judgement is not faith in Christ but behaviour to another group of people. How then can this be the judgement for entry into heaven?

Finally, different writers give us different parts of the picture. ALL must be put together to get the whole. You have painted your own picture and want to ignore the bits of scripture that don’t fit. (Allegorising scripture is the same as ignoring it, to my mind.) Rev 20 says that there will be a millennial kingdom on earth for 1000 years. That is one of the facts that has got to be built into the whole picture. It must not be allegorised into non-existence.

The fact is that there are many, many promises throughout the scripture that promise a kingdom over all the nations, on earth, to national Israel. Jesus did not deny that this would be so (Acts 1) but merely said that the time of it was hidden. Revelation 20 reveals the length of time that that kingdom is to last.

Comment by Oliver | May 27, 2009
Onesimus said May 27

Some Americans have hispanic roots, does that mean that all Americans are Hispanic.Does the fact that most Americans aren’t hispanic mean that no Hispanics are American.
……………………………………….
Well it certainly makes for a lot of burrito sales.But im still a little bemused, are the Americans the premills and the Hispanics the pretrib premills?, so where do the Canadians fit into this? are they the midtrib premills.And what about the Alaskans ,there way out the way, perhaps they are the amills?.

Comment by ray | May 28, 2009
To Fred
One of the great bible teachers of the the 20th century had a rather simple approach to biblical interpretation ” when th e plain sense of scripture makes common sense seek no other sense
…………………………
Fred , does this great bible teacher have a name?. Would the use of this principle of biblical interpretation not be tantamount to using mans wisdom to interpret the bible?
You mentioned before in a previous post regarding Isreal in the light of eschatology, is it possible to expound on that?

Comment by ray | May 27, 2009

Ray,

The man’s name is Anton Darms. And no, I would not equate Mr. Darms’ statement to being tantamount to using man’s wisdom to interpret the Bible. He is simply laying out a common sense principle in our approach towards the interpretation of Scripture. He is merely presenting a process without bias and not forming or imposing upon the reader a conclusion based upon his or anyone else’s preconceived notions. It’s really the equivalent of English 101, stressing grammatical fundamentals, and leaving the interpretation to the reader.

As to your question about Israel’s role in light of Biblical eschatology, it cannot adequately be addressed apart from the Church’s role in this process. To begin with, Paul stated that he magnified his ministry to the Gentiles in order that the Jews would be provoked to a spiritual jealousy (Rom. 11:14). The Church being all she was called to be is not an end in itself, but a means to an end towards fulfilling her ministry and obligation to provoking the Jews to a godly jealousy, and in doing so, making herself ready for her Bridegroom, even “hastening the day…..” as referred to in II Peter 3:12.

As part of this process, the Church must return to a “simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” She must learn to travel light, so to speak. She must return to her original God-given, Biblical structure of leadership and corporate function. It must be Christ-centered, meaning, He must have preeminence, and not just in lip service. She must become less reliant on man and things. She must prepare to be able to, not only adapt, but even flourish, amidst loss and devastation. The Church must reject the popular notion of, “Hey, we can be just as good as the world!” The Church was never called to be “just as good as the world.” She was called to be something, someone, totally different from this world, driven by a totally different life source. In fact, it, or rather, she, was literally called to reflect something out of this world. We must remember, Israel’s failings had much to do with her wanting to be “like the other nations.”

As to Israel, there is much to be gleaned from the well-known account of Jesus and His dear friend, Lazarus. Our natural love would have rushed to Lazarus’ side in order to save him from further suffering and death. God’s love does not simply look to the present, but also, and more importantly, to the future, to bring about a desired result, consistent with His eternal purposes, “for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen, are eternal.” There are times when the thing you love most and hold the most dear must be allowed to enter the crucible in order that, and that is always the operative term, “in order that…” God is always after something, His desired end result, for the personal, corporate, and eternal good. It will bring glory to God through the conformity to His Son which is unreachable apart from the Cross.

Lazarus had to endure suffering and death prior to experiencing resurrection life. “Jesus wept.” He was not insensitive nor indifferent. Contrary, to human nature, he literally loved Lazarus to the point of death. Why? Because, God was after something, far beyond the natural, the temporary. Therefore, with our spiritual eyes, we can see Lazarus as a type of Israel. We then may begin to get a glimpse of how God intends to deal with Israel “in order that” He may ultimately restore her unto Himself. Joseph, another type of Christ, was sold into slavery “in order that…” a mighty nation would be born. The natural human response of, “Surely, this shall never happen to you,” though well intended, often does not serve the purpose of God. There are countless other Biblical examples to reinforce this point. However, make no mistake, the Abrahamic Covenant of those who would bless or curse Israel is a perpetual spiritual principle which has never changed.

Another holocaust is on the horizon. The Jews will once again be subjected to a persecution of demonic proportions, but neither will the Church be spared from a similar fate. Though the vast majority of Jews reside in other nations, there will yet be another dispersion of Jews from the Land of Israel. They will be brought to a place where they will no longer be able to have confidence in their natural abilities (“make the arm of flesh their strength”). They will be brought to a place of utter human despair and hopelessness. God will not establish an unrepentant people to take permanent inheritance and possession of His Land. God’s preconditions for this fulfillment is consistent from Genesis onward. You bear the image of God, you possess the Land. You lose the image of God, you lose possession of the Land. Acquire the image of God, you are restored to possession of the Land. And, yes, there are many Scriptural examples to bear this out.

Many will ask, “What about Israel becoming a nation after the Holocaust of World War II?” As a people, what came out from Europe to help establish the nation of Israel was essentially a people who were broke, but not broken in the Scriptural-spiritual sense. This is the true definition of repentance, “a true godly sorrow,” apart from which can never lead to true salvation. We must not confuse worldly sorrow with godly sorrow. Pumping our fists in the air while declaring “never again,” by our own devices does not express the godly repentance spoken of in Scripture. Not until they are ready to declare, “our strength is dried up,” will God be able to truly deliver them by “His might and power.”

Revelation 12 is only one example of the Church’s and Israel’s ultimate destinies being intertwined. In the “end of days,” as the Roman centurion was converted through revelation of who Christ truly was as He subjected Himself to the Cross, so to, will the Jews (Israel who is truly Israel) be converted (circumcised in heart) as they see the Church manifest Christ through their willful subjection to the Cross. Many will manifest Christ through the bearing of their Cross leading to salvation of the Jews, many at the expense of their own lives. This is where the analogy of Corrie Ten-Boom-type ministry enters in. The true Church, who has made Herself ready, “in simplicity and purity by their devotion to Christ,” will be dispersed throughout the world. They will be as a God-made net intended to catch fish of a Jewish sort. And, it will be a net leading to spiritual deliverance. The Biblically mandated Gentiles’ debt to the Jews, will finally be PAID IN FULL. Then, and only then, will the Jews, who have been circumcised in heart as well as flesh, be restored to the Land for all time. This is consistent with God’s ways, from Genesis to Revelation. To say the least, this is certainly not consistent with the ways of men……but, then again, isn’t that what led to Jesus’ rebuke of Peter? May it not be said of us!

Comment by Fred London | May 28, 2009
While it is true that Jesus gave His people ‘more’ revelations concerning the future in The Revelation to John, these revelations will not contradict what was revealed to His apostles previously. Remember, Revelation was to be sent only to the seven churches just like Paul’s letters were sent to only ‘one’ church. The NT wasn’t collected into a whole until the third century. Certainly all that the early Christians needed to know about the future was provided.

Jesus His disciples THEN: “I have told you everything in advance.” Mark 13:23

As for there be survivors after Jesus returns, Jesus told His apostles that His return would be like the days of Noah when “the flood took them ALL away”….not just some. It is to be like the days of Lot when ALL were destroyed and not just some. -Matt. 24

Jesus said this about what His first coming would do to Satan: He would disarm him, bind him, judge him and cast him out.

John gives us new information that Satan would also be restrained from deceiving the nations in order to assemble them together until He who restrains him looses him. At that point the lawless one will be revealed who deceives the whole world with lying signs and wonders. This ‘man of sin’, this ’son of perdition’ will be allowed to assemble the whole world together as the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet go to the rulers and the whole world to deceive them.

My list:

1- Jesus died, was buried and raised. He ascended and is now reigning on His throne. His millennial reign began in Heaven at His ascension (Acts 2).

2- Satan bound and put under restraint so he can’t assemble the nations. Satan continues to roar like a lion to thwart and hinder the progress of the gospel. He continues to tempt and blind the minds of men. He continues to confuse the lost by raising up false teachers, false apostles and prophets. BUT, he is restrained from deceiving the nations in order to gather the nations together.

3- During His reign there are false messiahs/religions/prophets, earthquakes, famines, economic distress, wars and persecutions and martyrdoms. The souls of those killed for their faith are immediately raised to sit on thrones to judge with Christ. The 1000 years are symbolic of a long period of time, not to be taken as a literal 1000 years. The enlightenment causes the world to think things are getting better, but spiritually things are getting worse as the darkness covers the earth and deep darkness the peoples. Satan seeks to raise up groups preaching dominion, but they fail until God removes the restraint.

4- When the gospel goes to all the world, THEN the end comes according to Matthew 24:14.

5- The restraint on Satan is removed according to 2Thess. 2 and Rev. 20:7-10.

6- Satan rises up the beast and false prophet to deceive the whole world by lying signs and wonders. There is a ‘great falling away’ as the gospel of DOMINIONISM succeeds. “Peace and Safety” is the banner for dominionism.

7- God’s remnant people are sealed as God prepares to send judgments.

8- Those wanting to buy and sell are marked.

9- God warns those following the beast to repent by sending the first four trumpet judgments.

10- Then the abyss is opened and demons torture those not sealed. Instead of repenting their hearts are hardened and they curse God. Demons are then allowed to kill a third of the world’s population. (fifth and sixth trumpets)

11- The Dragon, Beast and False Prophet assemble their armies to attack God’s people. Megiddo and Armageddon are symbols of the ancient place of battle, not to be taken literally. They are said to gather around the ‘camp of the saints’, the ‘beloved city’. This means those who are sealed….wherever they are on earth!

12- Men’s hearts begin to fail at the things coming upon the earth, the sea and waves roaring. God’s people look up.

13- Jesus returns and the harvest takes place.

14- God’s people are raised and are caught up with those who remain and are alive to meet Him in the air.

15- God pours out the seven last plagues on the wicked. A great earthquake occurs as the plates buckle by the power of God.

16- The Beast and false prophet are thrown into lake of fire

17- All flesh killed.

18- Satan and his angels are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

19- The wicked dead are raised and Judged.

20- Death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.

21- Jesus takes us to the Father in Heaven where we assemble on the sea of glass. (John 14:1-3)

22- God creates a new heaven and new earth.

23- The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and all of creation once again declares that GOD IS LOVE AND CAN BE TRUSTED ABSOLUTELY!

24- We praise Him and love him forever as the great reunion takes place at the banquet table of the Lamb. PTL! Hope to see you there….it won’t be long now.

Comment by BB | May 28, 2009
BB | ~ so brave not to have a name, said:

“Revelation was to be sent only to the seven churches just like Paul’s letters were sent to only ‘one’ church.”

LMAO.

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?

nowhere. Adding to the word while subtracting from it will send you to hell – bc the Word is actually GOD/JESUS.

In John
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

In Revelation
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
19:13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God. ”

Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus – so don’t play your little games with It.

Actually, the command is inherent in the letters that they were to be copied and disseminated and shared – can’t you read? You make an absolutist statement which is a lie!

In Rev.
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him, to show to His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:
1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be to you, and peace, from Him which is, and which was.”

22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify to you these things in the churches.” To The Churches -which are AGES.

In 1 Thess.
5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. ”

ALL. ALL. ALL.

In Colossians
4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.”

I have the letter to the Laodiceans as well.

Comment by Lawrence Luprypa | May 28, 2009
Lawrence, I don’t find the sneering, condescending tone of your post helpful at all & nor does it add anything of the Spirit of Jesus to this thread. You may have good points to make, but they are hidden by the tone that comes across. Please respect others’ views as none of us has a complete grasp of all truth—only God Himself has that. “We see through a glass darkly”

Be blessed.

Comment by Ian Hutchinson | May 28, 2009
Amen Ian – I, like Friend of Muslims, agree that generally the discussion has been conducted in an amicable and gentle manner and hopefully that’s the way it will continue. F of M – I hope its not the tail end, I’ve really appreciated all the comments, have learnt a lot and we still have to hear from Karen Butler and Vince upon their return.

Comment by jan(2) | May 28, 2009
Ray,

Me: May 26 post [129]
The expression ”that day” comprises the whole time of the end , and not a single 24 hr period.It is a period that begins with the removal of the church and ends with the final resurrection of the wicked and their condemnation to the lake of fire, followed by the new heaven and new earth.
………………………………………………
Ray: So lets be clear about this , a 1000yrs is a thousand years,right[ in your understanding] and ” that day” is not 24 hrs but is in fact 1007 yrs ,using the pretrb premill calculator. Am i correct?,

“That day” = “the day of the Lord”. An expression like that is not one about a precise length of time. I might write, “In my day, people knew how to read the scripture in context!” and you would not think I was talking about a single 24 hour period. Words are used in different senses, so don’t try to play stupid! In Genesis 1, we have “day” used of each of 6 24-hour periods, each an evening and a morning. But in verse 5, “day” is used in two different senses, and in Genesis 2:4 we have “in the day that the Lord God made the earth and heavens”, which does not mean a single 24 hours but the whole period of creation.

Zechariah 14:8 “Moreover, on that day living waters will flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it will happen both in summer and in winter.” Here “that day” includes both summer and winter.

Revelation 20 uses 1000 years to mark the length of a real period of time. Six times we are explicitly told that this is the length of time of the kingdom after Jesus’ return. What possible words could God use to describe the length of that kingdom to someone who blindly refuses to listen to what he says? If I say that the night is black and you insist time and again that I am saying it is white, what possible words could I use to convey my meaning to you?

Ray: Oliver said May 26 in reply to a question from BB
I disagree, the wrath of God against one set of sinners is complete.There may still be wrath against a new set.
………………………………………………
Im sorry Oliver ,but when confronted with solid scriptural evidence that throws insight on to a subject , the best you can come up with is to refute it with some stupid conjecture.

I come up with what God actually says. It is you who insist on using other passages to argue that an explicit statement is not explicit. Rev 15:1 says the wrath of God is completed; it does not say that it is talking about all the wrath of God ever — after all, the final judgement and the lake of fire is still to come after this. The seven bowls complete the wrath of God on the unbelieving world that is played out on the day of the Lord in the seven years before Jesus’ return. It is Jesus in Revelation who tells us that there will be a further, brief episode 1000 years later, at Satan’s final rebellion and destruction. Why will you not believe him?

Comment by Oliver | May 28, 2009
///Considering that amills do warn against the mark, according to you, I think that our different views on what happens after the Lord appears does not matter a lot. Both positions in question expect the coming of the Lord while gauging it on the signs of the times. Both warn against the beast and the taking of the mark. It is just so strange that different doctrines can develop over time and the creative defense of these, often in the face of and against the obvious.////

There is a lot of wisdom here my friend. I agree. The only question is what happens AFTER Jesus returns. I’m the amill position is wrong then I’ll simply have to wait 1000 years for Satan to be destroyed and the final end to evil. But if the premill position is wrong then it is teaching there will be a second chance for those receiving the mark since they teach only the armies of the Beast are killed at Jesus’ return. The bulk of the nations remain alive.

////I think there are other aspects of the 2 positions that are probably more relevant to us today. The saving of the remnant of Israel for one. There is an infatuation with Israel today which is wrong and very dangerous but there are certain opinions that God will not deal with Israel again as a nation which is also wrong. I would like to see some honest thoughts about this without doctrinal positions and the conflicting views of theologists of times past and present. Who can say one theologist or teacher is to be trusted over another? Both were educated and seeked the Lord but came up with conflicting ideas. An honest and perhaps more simple look at scripture is neccessary.////

I believe Jews must respond to the gospel as they were commanded to do when Jesus and the Apostles were on the earth. I believe many have been grafted in and many more will be grafted in but I don’t see the nation of Israel who continues to reject Christ as God’s chosen people. I know I’m starting another debate and I will not debate or discuss this on this blog. I’ve spent much too much time over the years discussing and arguing the matter. Mark 16:16 is clear as is John 8:24. God bless you my sister. I only want to love the brethren. I hate all this contention and divisiveness the discussion of eschatology creates. I’m about done on this thread.

Comment by BB | May 29, 2009
Ray said:
“On your own web page you make a suggestion that people read Matt 24 as an introduction to end times understanding.This is of course a very good passage of scripture to read at any time.My question here is , are you able from this chapter to define a literal 1000yr earthly reign of Christ?.
Also , if you believe that Rev 19 is sequential into Rev 20, does this hold true for Rev 11 into Rev 12.i look forward to your reply”

—————-

Matthew 24 is a only a partial account of end time events in answer to specific questions that Jesus’ disciples asked. This section also makes no direct mention of the beast and THE false prophet – does that mean that our understanding of Revelation should be changed because Jesus didn’t speak specifically of them?

Also, we can see that Jesus wanted his disciples to be focused on certain priorities and not to be distracted by promises of the future Kingdom they were expecting. At that time they were STILL expecting Jesus to establish His kingdom in Israel in their lifetime. They had no understanding of His current reason for being among them. Mentioning the Kingdom they were expecting would have distracted them from the first and imminent stage of that Kingdom.
Revelation gives a more complete revelation of end time events. Prior to that the disciples were only given partial glimpses.

I’ll try to get back to you regarding you Rev 11 & 12 question. I don’t have the time or opportunity to look into at the moment. However, I do not believe that Revelation is totally sequential from beginning to end; but certain sections clearly ARE. Revelation 19 onwards is one of those sections that clearly is – and you yourself have agreed to the sequence of events described between Rev 19-21, with the exclusion of the section about the 1000 years. The question remains – why exclude ONE event from that sequence.

Comment by onesimus | May 29, 2009
Oliver said:
“Finally, others, such as onesimus, it appears, believe in the rapture at the end of the tribulation at Jesus’ return to earth.”
———–
Yes Oliver, I do believe that the saints will be caught up POST-tribulation. But I do not see that the timing of the “rapture” has any bearing on the timing of the millennium so will not discuss the rapture question on this thread.

Comment by onesimus | May 29, 2009
BB said:
“But if the premill position is wrong then it is teaching there will be a second chance for those receiving the mark since they teach only the armies of the Beast are killed at Jesus’ return. The bulk of the nations remain alive.”

—

The pre-mill does NOT say there will be a second chance for those who receive the mark. Again, you are presuming that all surviving unbelievers will have received the mark.
It’s better to stick with the scriptures instead of projecting assumptions into the equation.

Comment by onesimus | May 29, 2009
///The pre-mill does NOT say there will be a second chance for those who receive the mark. Again, you are presuming that all surviving unbelievers will have received the mark.
It’s better to stick with the scriptures instead of projecting assumptions into the equation.///

The Scriptures tell us that the whole world will follow the beast, except those who are sealed.

You are still preaching a second chance gospel Onesimus. All unbelievers have to do is refuse the mark and then after Jesus returns they can repent and be saved. Is that what you are saying the Bible teaches?

Comment by BB | May 29, 2009
BB said:
All unbelievers have to do is refuse the mark and then after Jesus returns they can repent and be saved. Is that what you are saying the Bible teaches?
————
As long as those unbelievers survive they will retain the ONE chance (not a second) that everyone has. Everyone has the same ONE chance to repent. That chance expires at death.

Those who survive, without taking the mark, until Jesus’ return will have the chance to repent and believe until their death. Then their ONE chance will be up.

Comment by onesimus | May 29, 2009
Ray,
I’ve now referred to Rev 11 and 12 and it is clear that this is not describing a series of sequential events.
However, the events in Rev 19 onwards are clearly sequential. You yourself agreed to the sequence I took from those chapters – but for some reason you can’t agree that ONE part of those chapters should be included in that sequence of events.
Again, I wonder why it is only the part in which Satan’s downfall is predicted that causes problems. Why is Satan’s downfall watered down from the complete end to his influence for 1000 years as depicted in chapter 20, and made into a diluted “binding” in which he’s still free to cause all kinds of havoc in the world today?

Comment by onesimus | May 29, 2009
Sorry Onesimus, it is a second chance gospel. That means they can wait until they see Jesus with their eyes and see the righteous raised and the armies of antichrist destroyed and then repent.

Here is what Jesus taught. I’ll take His Word for it:

Matthew 13:36 “Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Comment by BB | May 29, 2009
Rev. 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

This passage clearly teaches that ALL flesh are killed when HE returns….not just some.

Comment by BB | May 29, 2009
Did all the unsaved in Noah’s day die or just some? Did they all die in Sodom and Gomorrah except Lot and the two daughters? So will it be in the Day of the Son of Man.

Comment by BB | May 29, 2009
Sorry Onesimus, it is a second chance gospel. That means they can wait until they see Jesus with their eyes and see the righteous raised and the armies of antichrist destroyed and then repent.
———–

And your point is? And why does that make it a “second chance gospel”?

That is possibly what happens with Israel leading to the fulfilment of what Paul said in Romans “And so all Israel will be saved”.
When they see Jesus and realise He IS the messiah they had been waiting for.

Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.

Comment by onesimus | May 29, 2009
BB,
as for your reference to the PARABLE of the wheat and the tares – note that this PARABLE also makes no reference to
resurrection or the great white throne judgement. Maybe we can disount those as well as the lietral 1000 year reign of Christ on earth?

See how pointless the exercise of duelling with scripture verses is? Just because one part of scripture doesn’t confirm everything in a second part of scripture it doesn’t invalidate what that second part DOES say.

Comment by onesimus | May 29, 2009
BB and others: – A short comment (cannot get too involved because of time)
On the question of “Who is left to people the earth when Christ returns” – as judgement is clearly pronounced on those who receive the “mark of the beast” as well as on those at the battle of Armaggedon (or rather what ensues from the gathering of armies at Armaggedon – the battle does not take place there) – is it not possible that among those who are left to people the earth are “those who cannot tell their right hand from their left” – the children and perhaps mentally handicapped? And perhaps those who in accordance with Matt.25 who have shown kindness to the Jewish diaspora and (granted a post-tribulational rapture) to those of God’s church who are still left up alive up to that time?
I know that some will here quote: -
Rev. 13.16-17 “And it causes ALL, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bondmen, that they should give them a mark upon their right hand or upon their forehead; and that no one should be able to buy or sell save he that had the mark, the name of the beast, or the number of its name” – to show that everyone apart from the saints receive the mark – but perhaps that is stretching language where it is not intended to be stretched in the immediate context; since clearly some DO suffer the penalty of not being able to buy or sell.
Incidentally most of the early church fathers as far as I can recall did believe in a post-tribulational rapture AND a millenial reign – in that sense “dispensationalism” is not a 19th-20th century invention. See R.H Gundry’s bibllography – which unfortunately I don’t have to hand here.

Comment by Friend of Muslims | May 29, 2009
I find it a bit curious that no one offered a comment, one way or the other, in reference to a previous post, which I will repost here…

Let me put forth two passages which indicate that there will in fact be survivors among the nations (unredeemed) who cross over into the Millenium.

“For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them and will send SURVIVORS from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Meshech, Rosh, tubal, and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have not heard My fame and seen my glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. Then your brethren (Jews) from all the nations as a grain offering to the Lord, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord” – Is. 66:18-20.

“Then it will come about that ANY WHO ARE LEFT OF ALL THE NATIONS THAT WENT AGAINST JERUSALEM will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths” – Zech. 14:16,

Comment by Fred London | May 26, 2009

Comment by Fred London | May 29, 2009
PS – Apologies, I see have not totally followed BB’s questions.
The fact is that according to the plain meaning of the text, in the millenium (when Christ is at least at times partly ruling openly on the earth and His miraculous power wonderfully demonstrated) there is still rebellion at the end of that time. Such is the heart of man (and the millenium perhaps is the final proof of the possible depth of his depravity in the aspect of unbelief among other things).
That is to say, faith in Christ is still required in the millenium for a man to be saved and regenerated. Even in eternity faith is still surely going to be required in our ongoing relationship with God, though that is a mystery beyond our immediate subject “Now abide faith, hope, love”. Even facing the resurrection of Christ “some doubted” (Matt. 28.17)
As Onesimus says: -
“As long as those unbelievers survive they will retain the ONE chance (not a second) that everyone has. Everyone has the same ONE chance to repent. That chance expires at death”,
Blessings upon those who diligently keep thinking: for they shall certainly get something from the Lord (Prov. 21.5). ANd blessings on all who read and consider Revelation in the fear of the Lord (Rev. 1.3)

Comment by Friend of Muslims | May 29, 2009
One more for out of the mouth of two witnesses let a thing be confirmed:

2Thess. 1:6…it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe.”

The Scripture is clear that there is no possibility of salvation once Jesus returns.

2 Peter 3:10 “But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

If it all is burned up when He comes as a thief in the night then there won’t be anyone left of the nations to rule over. No, it all ends for the lost when He returns. If you’re not saved then it will be too late. That is why God is waiting for the gospel to go to all the world. THEN the end will come. “For God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” -2Peter 3:9

Comment by BB | May 29, 2009
Onesimus
The events described at the end of Rev 11 are clearly that of the end of this age, the events described in Rev 12 are as you have agreed are non sequential and detail a different vision.This is exactly the same scenario with chapter 19 and chapter 20 , but from a slightly different perspective.You say they are sequential because thats what you believe, i say that they are non sequential because i believe in a different interpretation of those events.I will state here categorically ,so as not to cause confusion, that i absolutely believe every word in the bible is inspired of the Holy Spirit and is the undisputed word of God, you and i disagree on the order of these events.
Regarding your answer to my question as to whether Matt 24 mentions a future earthly millennial reign of Christ , i couldn’t determine an answer so i will assume the answer is no.
BB has already mentioned the Parable of the tares,im sure that it was for the purpose of dispelling any doubt that Jesus tells the parable of the Net.At the close of the age , the good fish are sorted into vessels and the bad are thrown away.The angels will come out and seperate the evil and the righteous, and throw the evil into the fiery furnace ,where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You are right about there not being any mention of the beast and antichrist in Matt 24, but it not that issue we are discussing here .The timing of events as detailed in Matthew are quite clear,AT THE CLOSE OF THE AGE , CHRIST RETURNS TO JUDGE , THE RIGHTEOUS ARE REWARDED AND THE WICKED ARE PUNISHED.Any study of revelation must concur with the events detailed in Matthew and elsewhere in the gospels and epistles.For such a significant doctrine to be acceptable , surely there would be supporting texts else where.As i have stated previouly, reading the bible cover to cover does not reveal any notion of a literal 1000yr earthly reign of Christ until the 3rd last chapter,this is not an insignificant point.

Comment by ray | May 29, 2009
There are wider implications here for those who believe an earthly reign of Christ for a thousand yrs.Sure , we are debating the timing of these events , but premills have some other serious doctrinal issues to deal with as well.Please consider carefully the following.

If as you assert , that Christ is not reigning now ,if , as some have declared that Christ did not conqueor satan at the cross and if , as most of you have said , satan is now decieving the nations there is only one conclusion that can be drawn,WE ARE UNDER THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS.Two opposing Princes cannot coexist in the same kingdom. Luke 11:17
“Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste”
Either satan is ruling this kingdom or Christ is reigning , you cannot have it both ways.You have refused to acknowledge that Christ is reigning so it is obviously satan that is in charge.If as you believe that we are under the Kingdom of Darkness THEN WHAT IS YOU CLAIM TO HEARING THE GOSPEL, WHAT IS YOUR CLAIM TO SALVATION, WHAT IS YOUR YOUR CLAIM TO THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.If you refuse to acknowledge the reign of Christ now , you can not lay claim to any of the above.
But on the contrary, your hearing the gospel bears witness to Christs victory on the cross , your salvation and indwelling of the Holy Spirit bear witness to Christ reigning with his saints ,on earth and in heaven.
There are no parallel kingdoms of many shades of grey,there is only the Kingdom of Light and the Kingdom of Darkness ,either one or the other 2 Cor6:14
“Or what fellowship does light have with darkness”
By continuing to refute the Reign of Christ as is now , and the binding of satan ,you are calling into question the very power of your salvation,this is a very serious charge.
Is God sovereign? I believe he is ,by the very fact that by his grace i am saved and by the gift of the Holy Spirit, i know that Christ is reigning in me, is he reigning in you?
Do you want to join the select group of people mentioned in 2 Tim 3:4
” having the appearance of godliness ,but denying the power thereof”
Again ,if Christ is not currently reigning, then you have some serious soul searching to do.
This is not about who has the right doctrinal position on the millennium, it is about acknowledging that God is sovereign,Christ is Reigning[ in you] and you have come to life.

Comment by ray | May 29, 2009
Here is the $64 dollar question: If there is a literal Millenium, what would be the purpose of it? Can all of this be spiritualized away and yet maintain theological integrity? Is there a relationship between this question and God’s purposes for Israel to finally fulfill its original calling as “a light to the nations?” Why would there be the need for Christ to administer a “rod of iron” rule if, at that point, “Christ is all in all?”

How do we reconcile passages such as Is. 66:18-20 and Zech. 14:16-19 with the premise that the the New Covenant promise of Jer. 31:31-34 has been fully consumated? How is it that there are “survivors” at the end of the Great Tribulation who enter into the Millenium Age, and nations are yet compelled to go up and worship at Jerusalem? Is it possible that I Cor. 15:25-28, among many other passages in both O.T. and N.T., reveal that there is yet to be a finishing process during the period known as The Millenium?

I would submit to you that unless the foundation of our Scriptural understanding (interpretation) is filtered through God’s eternal purposes for the Church and for Israel, the level and accuracy of our interpretation will be quite limited and skewed. Much of the reason we are bombarded by virtually “every wind of doctrine,” and buy inot those doctrines is because of the absence of God’s purposes for the Church and Israel revealed throughout Scripture. “As a man thinks in is heart, so is he.” It is to that extent that doctrine does matter, that we might live and work in concert with God’s purposes.

The Father, Jesus, and the Prophets spoke much about these things for a reason and not for the purpose of supplying fodder for interesting debates, curiosity seekers, conferences and various publications. These are life and death issues both in the physical and spiritual sense. For unless or until we acquire the same spirit which the tribe of Issachar possessed, we will not be able to “discern the times and know what (we) are to do.” And more importantly, neither will we be able to “give insight to the many.”

Comment by Fred London | May 29, 2009
Ray: “If as you assert , that Christ is not reigning now ,if , as some have declared that Christ did not conqueor satan at the cross and if , as most of you have said , satan is now decieving the nations there is only one conclusion that can be drawn,WE ARE UNDER THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS.Two opposing Princes cannot coexist in the same kingdom. Luke 11:17
“Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste”
Either satan is ruling this kingdom or Christ is reigning , you cannot have it both ways.”

Once again, the scripture contradicts you:
“My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36
“The whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” (1 Jn 5:19)

We are not in darkness, but the world is. When we were justified, we were also transferred into the kingdom of God. The nations are not in it and will not be until the millennium.

That does not prevent God from doing whatever he wills, but he has not yet willed to stop Satan from operating among those who are perishing.

Comment by Oliver | May 30, 2009
Fred
I take it that the reference to “rod of iron” you made in your previous is referencing Rev 12:5

She gave birth to a male child , one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron”

This is not a reference to Christ beating the nations into submission with an iron bar [this would go against the arminian views held on this thread] it simply means that Christ will measure up or size up the nations according to his unbending standard.In Rev 11 : 1 we see the same principle applied to this vision

“Then i was given a measuring rod like a staff and i was told Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those that who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple , leave that out for it is given over to the nations and they shall trample the holy city for forty two months.

Was John asked to measure the temple because God had misplaced the dimensions?.Of course not, he is sizing up the temple of God , the altar , and those who worship.This is the true church.In Rev 12 we see that it is Christ sizing up the nations [judging them].

Comment by ray | May 30, 2009
Ray,

Have you ever read about Jesus’ second coming in Isaiah?

Isaiah 63 1-6

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winevat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was no man with me: yea, I trod them in mine anger, and trampled them in my wrath; and their lifeblood is sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my wrath, it upheld me.
6 And I trod down the peoples in mine anger, and made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.

“red in thy apparal” is obviously the blood of the people Jesus killed with His own arm.

Comment by JDV | May 30, 2009
Ray,

So you’re arminian? What do you think about predestination?

Comment by JDV | May 30, 2009
To Fred
In reply to your post[180] regarding the nil response to your questions, i read through both of those passages , but was unable to reply specifically because of time.
To be fair ,Isaiah 66 is a difficult chapter for any one to exegete in a way that is true to its text.There are some clues as to its relationship to Christs return such as v 15 &16 [this mirrors the account given by John in Rev 11:15 where Christ returns to execute His judgement] As for concluding that the following verses that you mentioned v 18-20 indicate a group of survivers into the millennium [ as you believe] i do not see this as being possible.
As for the passage in Zech14:16 ,this is also difficult, but i see the key phrase here being ” and to keep the Feast of Booths”.Ihave commented previously on this thread regarding the observance of keeping the Feast of Booths in the light of the new covenant [perhaps you could refer back to this ] and for this reason i would not conclude that this passage refers to group of survivers into a literal millennium.

Comment by ray | May 30, 2009
Ray,

First, I would ask you to read that single statement within the context of my entire post. Secondly, if my statement doesn’t fit neatly into the Armenian school of thinking, that’s their problem, not mine. Also, the term, “rod of iron” is used to express active authority. Refer also to Rev. 2:27, which in turn, refers to Rev. 19:15. In all cases, the context is speaking of authoritative enforcement, similar in intent to Zech. 14:16-19.

Throughout Scripture, “rod” is descriptive of discipline, and “iron” as strength. So, you don’t need to be a linguist to interpret the meaning as “discipline enforced by strength.” The reference you cite in Rev. 11:1, specifically and literally says, “measuring rod” within the clear context of the act of measuring. However, none of the other references attach that word or place it in that context.

Comment by Fred London | May 30, 2009
Answer to BB’s last question re. understanding of these 2 scriptures: -

2Thess. 1:6…it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe.”

There is nothing here that would preclude those opposed to God and His Christ in that day in terrible punishment, sweeping them into Hades to await the Great White Throne judgement. Indeed who is left to “admire Him in all who believe” if all are swept away?

2 Peter 3:10 “But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

It is possible “the Day of GOD” (as in most texts and translations) is a term including the “Day of the Lord” and incorporating the whole millenial period – but the “Millenialist position” is this is what happens at the end of the Millenium when heaven and earth finally do pass away. Interestingly Peter comments “BUT we… look for a new heaven and a new earth… (our eyes not ultimately on the millenium) in which DWELLS righteousness (not a RULE of righteousness as the millenium)

Comment by Friend of Muslims | May 30, 2009
Fred raises a good question concerning ‘God’s purposes’ and theology. More than coming to an accurate timeline is coming to the truth concerning God. The issue in this controversy between God and Satan concerns the very character of God.

It was the character of God that Satan questioned and led to his rebellion against the authority of God. We see this clearly in the Garden of Eden. Satan tells Adam and Eve that God is a liar about Himself and what He told them.

In essence, Satan’s charge is that God cannot be trusted.

God called Israel to be a people who demonstrated that God can be trusted. That was all God was asking them to do. The way they showed He could be trusted was by their obedience to His commandments. Jesus said the same thing, “If you love me keep my commandments.” Only a remnant of Israelites demonstrated that God should be and could be trusted.

Look at Hebrews 11. The point of that chapter is to show those who lived by faith in God and trusted Him …enduring to the end even though having not received what was promised.

The remnant have always been and will always be those who remain faithful and obedient to God because in their hearts they know He can be trusted.

Rev. 12:17 “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (the remnant), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Rev. 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those (the remnant who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

The remnant people of God live their lives in a way that demonstrates that God can be trusted. It’s more important that we be on a mission to vindicate God. It’s His heart and character that is the issue.

Jesus vindicated God all by Himself. PTL! God demonstrated His Great love for His creatures, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Thus in Christ He revealed that deep in His heart is a love that will sacrifice and do what ever is necessary for His creatures. This is how Jesus disarmed Satan. He exposed him as the liar. In Christ, God proved He could be trusted. Christ in human form will always be God’s testimony to what is deep in His heart. No creature will doubt God again. Rebellion will never rise again.

As a Jew, Jesus succeeded for Israel what Israel never could do. In that regard Israel was successful because of that one Israelite….Y’shua. PTL!

The call has gone out that God can be trusted and for sinners to put their trust in God and receive the Gift of His Son and what He did for them. Those putting their trust in God and believe His Son and are baptized will be saved. Those who don’t trust God put themselves on the side of Satan and are damned. Mark 16:16

Christ is reigning NOW but only reigning over those who receive Him as Savior and Lord. Everything else is fuel for the burning. When He returns those who refused to trust God are calling God the liar. There will be no further need for 1000 more years. With the return of Jesus it will be all over. There will be no second chance because the wages of sin is death. There is no further need of demonstation. Christ already did that and the remnant has confirmed it. No need for another 1000 years followed by another rebellion.

*******************

If premill is correct it strikes me that when Jesus returns the earth is going to be a mess. A third is burnt up and all green grass burnt up. A third of the seaports are destroyed. Volcanos and great earthquakes will demolish buildings and homes, roadways and power. Mountains and islands are moved out of their places. Those remaining are scorched by the sun.

And you’re telling me that Jesus comes to rule over that? Read Revelation 11, Jerusalem is hit with an earthquake and in rubble. He comes to rule there?

No, the Scripture is clear. He comes in fire and burns it all up. The earth will melt with fervent heat and the elements will be burnt up. Then He will create a new earth to rule over, not an earth in shambles.

Peace and God bless you all my brothers. You are trusting in our Lord and what He has done for us and I bless you for that. If premill is correct then I will personally seek you out in that day and ask your forgiveness. We all believe that in the end God will be all in all and that the universe will once again beat with one heartbeat of love. I can’t wait for that day. God bless.

Comment by BB | May 30, 2009
FoM said: “Indeed who is left to “admire Him in all who believe” if all are swept away?”

A: We’re told in that passage: “…to be admired among all those who believe.”

FoM: “It is possible “the Day of GOD” (as in most texts and translations) is a term including the “Day of the Lord” and incorporating the whole millenial period.”

But my friend, Peter tells us in that same passage that this destruction will come as a thief in the night. Jesus refered to His return as a thief: “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” Rev. 16:15

This term “thief in the night” clearly is a reference to the next time He returns. If there is a 1000 reign of Jesus on the earth how can He come as a thief….since He is already here?

Also the term “The Day of the Lord” is always used in Scripture to describe the day of His wrath and punishment on the wicked. Me thinks there is no other way around Peter’s words then to twist them into making the Day of the Lord begin with His wrath and then continue on for a thousand years. Rev. 15:1 tells us that with the seven last plagues the wrath of God is completed.

peace

Comment by BB | May 30, 2009
“Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober” – I Thess. 5:1-6.

Comment by Fred London | May 30, 2009
Pulling up the essay below regarding the Millenium may be worth your time.

http://www.zcpress.org/reggiekelly/Questions/Millennial_Leadership_Home.html

Comment by Fred London | May 30, 2009
BB, yes, Satan has been restrained to assemble the nations. But even God waits until His time is fulfilled. That does not prove that Satan is in the bottomless pit and neither is he totally bound.
Here is your Israel in the end-time
Romans 11:25-26 25 ¶ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
You want to know, who is livin in the Millennium?
Zechariah 14:16-19 16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
According to you there should be none left.

Comment by gyod | May 30, 2009
gyod,

Several posts above yours, I cited that passage in Zech. 14, along with Is. 66:18-20. In fact, I repeated them twice, but received very little response to them. And these are but two of many passages which should clearly indicate a literal Milleniel reign.

Comment by Fred London | May 31, 2009
gyod

I am no scholar but You just wrote what has been in my mind!

Comment by My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours too | May 31, 2009
To JDV
Yes i have read Isaiah 63,it only serves to emphasise the fury with which Christ will return to punish the unrighteous.The image here is that of a blood bath,such will be the vengeance.This passage mirrors that found in Rev 14:17.I thank God daily for His saving grace and mercy because if this image of Gods wrath does not provoke you to repentance ,then you have no hope.Again , the time for salvation is now, there are no second chances, do not be deceived.
In answer to your second question,God chooses those who will obey Him.You make of this what you will.
Matthew 7:21

Not every one who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does THE WILL of my Father in heaven.ON THAT DAY, many will say to me Lord, Lord ,did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?And then i will declare to them,I never knew you, depart from me , you workers of lawlessness.

Comment by ray | May 31, 2009
I am compelled to write this as a warning to all who read this.I sense in my spirit that Christs return is imminent and soon, however there are many among the bretheren that will not be prepared.If you believe there is a second chance of salvation after Christs return,YOU ARE DECEIVED, if you believe that a visible mark of the beast, rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem, some sort of peace accord in the middle east, the rise of an individual that resembles the antichrist and any other of the myriad of so called signs that falsely give a seven or three and a half indication as to the time of Christs return ,YOU ARE DECEIVED.Read and study carefully the Seventy Weeks of Daniel.The last seven or week commences with the confirmation [ or making strong ] the covenant.This is the covenant God promised Abraham that was confirmed by Christs death.

Hebrews 9:15

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance , since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.FOR WHERE A WILL IS INVOLVED ,THE DEATH OF THE ONE WHO MADE IT MUST BE ESTABLISHED, FOR A WILL TAKES EFFECT ONLY AT DEATH.

We are in the last of Daniels weeks ,and have been since Christ died to strenghen the covenant.
The christians life has always been marked by tribulation, such is the contrast between those that walk in darkness and those that walk in the Light. The great tribulation will be at the time of satans loosing,and the spirit of antichrist which has been since the time of the early saints will also be revealed.Does God need a physical mark on a person to know if that person belongs to the beast?, He is searching hearts here ,not looking for physical markings.
Look into your own churches ,the first casualty of war is the truth, it is being sacrificed in the name of unity,worship is now a musical expression, dominated by material written for profit ,and we dare call this worship?

Romans 12:1
I appeal to you therefore brothers, by the mercies of God , to present your bodies as a living sacrifice ,holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship.Do not be conformed to this world , but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God , what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Deception is rampant [that is why you are probably on this site]It does not enter your churches with a blazing neon sign, but rather through music, teachings that resemble 95% truth, psycholgy based feel good self help teaching that places man at the centre of the gospel, and no end of peripheral programs and conferences to reinforce it. I could go on and on .Satan and his forces have already compassed the city of the saints and our deliverance is near.

Ezekiel 36 :22

Therefore say to the house of Israel,Thus says the Lord God
It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that iam about to act, but for the sake of my HOLY NAME .

I do not apologise for the tone of this post , but trust that you will receive it as a warning that the time is near. It is not Gods desire that any should perish.

Be prepared.

Comment by ray | May 31, 2009
ray, while it good advice to be prepared at all time, the references to the mark of the beast clearly indicate a physical mark. God knowing the hearts is not the point here. How can an Antichrist system know whether you are one of theirs? The mark is an indication of ownership.
I have read the seventy weeks of Daniel and it is the week 70 that is cut in half by the ceasing of sacrifices and oblations. So, how do you get the idea that all this is wrong?

Comment by gyod | May 31, 2009
18. Ray,
So you’re arminian? What do you think about predestination?
Comment by JDV | May 30, 2009

———

Obviously I can’t speak for Ray.
Predestination is clearly biblical. Unfortunately there are some very evil doctrines out there express a view of predestination that IS NOT biblical, that say God decided who will be saved and who will be damned PRIOR to man’s creation.

In other words, those who are damned are not damned because of their sin (the choice of their eternal future being predetermined BEFORE they even had the chance to sin and even BEFORE they were born with a totally depraved nature). According to a certain popular historical doctrine, those who are damned are damned entirely due to a choice God made before any trace of sin could affect them

.
—————————————————————-

Comment by ray | May 29, 2009:
This is exactly the same scenario with chapter 19 and chapter 20 , but from a slightly different perspective.You say they are sequential because thats what you believe, i say that they are non sequential because i believe in a different interpretation of those events.
——

Ray, despite your denial, we’ve already established that you DO agree that the events in Rev 19 onwards are sequential. I listed those events in order and asked whether you thought the sequence was correct. Both you and BB agreed that they were.

The ONLY events I left from the list were those associated with a literal 1000 year imprisonment of Satan and the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. Why should those events be omitted from the sequence listed from Rev 19 onwards? Why should that one section be dropped from the agreed sequence of events?

Why should all the other events be recognised and why should those associated with the 1000 years be ripped out of the scriptural order and dropped before everything else?
Why should the return of Christ, Armageddon, Judgement, new heaven and new earth be taken literally and the 1000 years (included in the middle of those other events) be “spiritualised”?
——————————————————————————
Fred London said:
“Much of the reason we are bombarded by virtually “every wind of doctrine,” and buy into those doctrines is because of the absence of God’s purposes for the Church and Israel revealed throughout Scripture.”
–
It seems evident to me that so much man-made doctrine is also man-centred. It also seems to be made up on-the–run with no idea of a destination in mind.
Few people seem to be interested in where God is heading – what is HIS purpose and what HIS goal is.
When we understand God’s ultimate intentions we will have more of an understanding of the past present and future dealings of God with His creation.
———————————————————————-

Comment by Oliver | May 30, 2009:
Once again, the scripture contradicts you:
“My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36
“The whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” (1 Jn 5:19)
We are not in darkness, but the world is. When we were justified, we were also transferred into the kingdom of God. The nations are not in it and will not be until the millennium.
That does not prevent God from doing whatever he wills, but he has not yet willed to stop Satan from operating among those who are perishing.

—-

That is a very good point Oliver. It is not only clear from observing the world around us – but as you show, scripture PROVES that the binding AND IMPRISONMENT of Satan has not yet occurred and his power to deceive the nations is has not yet been curtailed. His power over the world is still very real and will not end until the angel (not Jesus on the cross) binds AND imprisons him in the abyss for 1000 years.

Comment by onesimus | May 31, 2009
Onesimus
Bless you brother, you have found all the right answers ,and in you no wrong can be found. You are a true inspiration to me.

Comment by ray | June 1, 2009
Onesimus May 31

That is a very good point Oliver.It is not only clear from observing the world around us- but as you show , scripture PROVES that the binding AND IMPRISIONMENT of Satan has not yet occurred and his power to deceive has not yet been curtailed.His power over the world is still very real and will not end until the angel[ not Jesus on the cross] binds AND imprisions him in the abyss for a 1000 years.

…………………………..
Onesimus , are we now garnering wisdom from the world?.May be we need to study the word of God , as you are so fond of telling all and sundry.If you will take the time and effort , i have a few scriptures for you

John 12:30
Jesus answered, this voice has come for you sake , not mine.Now is the judgement of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

Colossians 2:14
By canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands.This He set aside, nailing it to the cross.He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them in Him.

Rev 1:17
When I saw him , i fell at his feet as though dead.but he laid his right hand on me ,saying,Fear not,Iam the first and the last, and the living one.I died and behold Iam alive forevermore and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

……………………
Onesimus , i can do no more than direct you to scripture that bears witness to the reign of Christ now, and that this is possible was through the binding of satan , for the express purpose of building His church.Your very salvation bears witness to the establishment of the church, will you deny this?
If by the Word of God and the Spirit of Truth {The Two Witnesess} this is revealed , then praise God , for you will have truly been blessed.

Rev 1: 3
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Comment by ray | June 2, 2009
Onesimus
Bless you brother, you have found all the right answers ,and in you no wrong can be found. You are a true inspiration to me.

Comment by ray | June 1, 2009
———–

More than a hint of sarcasm maybe?

Despite the accusations and despite NOT having “all the right answers”. I can remain confident when I stick with what scripture actually says and I don’t add my own interpretation.

If scripture clearly tells me that satan will be imprisoned for a period of 1000 years, and that his power to deceive the nations will be completely ended – then I believe it.

When the scripture clearly tells me that Jesus will reign with His saints for that same 1000 years – then I believe it.

When scripture clearly tells me that the 1000 years will end with satan being released, and he will gather the nations to war against God’s people – then I believe it.

When scripture clearly tells me that Satan and his army will be defeated and satan will be cast in the lake of fire – I believe it.

Comment by onesimus | June 2, 2009
I have a vision

Christ has returned,the events are catalclysmic,this is no secret rapture but a supernatural event, all knees have bowed down before Him, some out of reverence and awe, for this is the day of their deliverance,most out of shear terror because they know the Christ they ignored has returned and the vibe is not looking good.Soon they will be called upon to present their accounts, and they will be dealt with accordingly.And so finally the saints present themselves for the receiving of their rewards, but hang on ,the’re’s commotion further up the line, a bit of contention, whats that we hear ” theres some thing missing from the sequence”

Comment by ray | June 2, 2009
Onesimus
What accusations?

Comment by ray | June 3, 2009
Ray,
Instead of pushing a point through fiction it is much more helpful to stick with scripture.

Between Christ’s return and His defeat of the beast, and the great white throne judgement; scripture includes a 1000 year period in which Satan is imprisoned and his deceiving influence on the nations is curtailed. During this same 1000 years Jesus reigns on the earth along with his saints.

After this will be the second resurrection and the judgement. There is nothing missing from the sequence when scripture is kept intact and in its biblical order.

Comment by onesimus | June 3, 2009
ray, not one of the verses you posted indicate that Satan has been bound. We can defeat him by the blood of the lamb and the words of our testimony but he has been quite active since the cross. It is dangerous to bring people into a false sense of peace and security. They will stop watching and praying and get complacent and lukewarm.

Comment by gyod | June 3, 2009
To gyod

Again i ask the question, if satan was not bound at the cross, then what was the point of Christs death.The passage in John 12:30
” Now will the ruler of this world be cast out”
Who do you see that being applicable to?
Many premills will believe the doctrines they do based solely on their interpretation of Rev 20, without being aware of the full implications of their stance.In essence , whether you are aware of it or not,by denying that Christ is reigning now[ in a current millennium] you are denying the deity of Christ and the sovereignty of God.This is now a far greater issue than simply one of where the millenium is placed, for premills now question the very authority of Christ through whom they claim salvation.I’ll leave you to ponder the implications of this.

Comment by ray | June 3, 2009
Ray
We do believe Satan was bound at the cross in the sense that he has no authority now over the spirit and heart of those who believe. But it is incumbent on us to resist him and to hold this ground through faith, obedience and prayer.
As to present authority of the enemy, such scriptures as “And there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation” show his authority over the saints through antichrist IN THIS AGE (i.e. after the cross, and before our Lord returns) however you interpret the context
“Wherefore we have desired to come to you, even I Paul, both once and twice, and Satan has hindered us.” How is that possible if he is “bound” at the present time?
If I may say so, the original gentle tone of this debate seems to have acquired an “edge” once more.
Peace and grace

Comment by Friend of Muslims | June 3, 2009
ray, the point of the death of Christ was to pay the ransom for our sins, so that we could be reborn and made holy to come into God’s presence.
The prince of this world, which is obviously Satan, was cast out, probably out of heaven.
Why do I deny the deity of Christ and the sovereignty of God?
If Satan is bound and God is sovereign then why has the world been so bad the past 1900 years and why is not everyone getting saved. In the OT God was looking for someone who would stand in the gap for Israel so he would not have to judge it. He did not find any so judgment was inevitable. That means he is acting to the spiritual laws he set up and not arbitrarily.
Again, until Satan is locked up in the Abyss, he will be working evil because there are so many doing his will, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

Comment by gyod | June 3, 2009
ray
I rebuke that accusation in the Name of Yeshua!
Don’t touch the cross and don’t accuse others of doing so!
You said that those who don’t believe that the millenium is taking place now are denying the sovereignty of God!
Listen,we know that all power has been given to Jesus in heaven and on earth!
No one is saying that Jesus is not reigning now!-What some are saying is that this is not the “millenium” that the Bible refers too.
Is Jesus ruling in Jerusalem?
Are the leaders of the nations coming with their gifts once a year?
Believe whatever You want but You don’t have the right to muke such accusations!
I haven’t seen the first resurrection yet!
As I have been reading some of the comments here,even those whom I used to respect and who call theselves watchman are saying strange things!
I’d rather believe the Bible than any prophets or watchman’s opinions!
When I read or listen to the Book of Revelation,I take everything childlike!
When I read some comments here,I just get confused!
Of course on the cross Jesus defeated satan and he gave us power to tread upon serpents and scorpions and upon all the power of the enemy and He said that nothing by any means should hurt us!
No one is denying that He is at the right hand of the Father interceding for us!No one is denying that all power in heaven and earth has been given to Him!
If there is something I like to do,is to exalt the Lord!
I also have a problem with those who seem to think that they undertand everything about the Bible!
With rapture or without rapture,with plenty or in famine,in peace or in persecution,the most important thing is to know the Lord in a personal way and to obey Him and His Word!
Many people are talking about the endtime doom and gloom
and we know thatb those things shall come!
However,the Lord keeps telling me not to be concerned because He knows how to take care of His people!
I don’t believe this is what the Bible calls “millenium” and by saying that I am not denying the deity of Christ!
If You go to the thread “A easter prayer for You” You’ll see how many scriptures I wrote proving that Jesus is God!
I know that You didn’t adress me personally but when Yiou wrote those words,You are touching everyone who doesn’t agree with You!
Ome more thing to the so called “watchaman”.
When we use the word “intercessor” people treat it as a swearing word!
Being an intercedssor is when we pray for mothers!
I didn’t get that call from any man but from God!
In 1006 the Lord started giving me nnames of people (diferent nationalities)cities and nations for me to pray for.
I never agreed with all the “special reverence” that church leaders were giving to those whom God gives assignments to pray for.
Of course as Christians,we are all called to pray but for many years I had never got any assignment from the Lord for me to pray for.
when the watchmen say that they are keeping an eye on the enemy,it makes me laugh!
God is the One Who is keeping an eye on the enemy and He shares with us whatever He wants but we know nothing of our own!
I have desired to adress this for a long time!

I’m glad I’m going awaw!

Comment by My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours too | June 3, 2009
P.S:

I said “don’t touch the cross” to make Your point of view at the expense of accusing others!

Comment by My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours too | June 3, 2009
P.S.S:
In 1006 I wasn’t born yet!
I meant in 1996!(the first time the Lord started giving me assignments to pray for (I’m avoiding the expression “to intercede for”,lest I offend some minds!
The Bible also doesn’t use the expression:”Bible”!

Comment by My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours too | June 3, 2009
P.S.S:
In 1006 I wasn’t born yet!
I meant in 1996!(the first time the Lord started giving me assignments to pray for (I’m avoiding the expression “to intercede for”,lest I offend some minds!
The Bible also doesn’t use the expression:”Bible”!
Maria

P.S:I’m gone!

Comment by My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours too | June 3, 2009
Ray,
No premill here is denying that Christ is reigning and that God is sovereign.
But Christ is not currently reigning over those in the world. They still submit themselves to the rule of the god of this world.
The millennium reign of Christ ON THIS EARTH will be over ALL because The god of this world (Satan) will be imprisoned and his deceptive power will be curtailed.

This is the way that God has chosen to do things. This is the outworking of HIS sovereign will as revealed throughout scripture. The most complete and most recent scriptural revelation of His sovereign will in this matter details a specific and literal 1000 year period of time (Rev 20).

you ask “if satan was not bound at the cross, then what was the point of Christ’s death?”

Christ’s death was to pay for the penalty of our sin.

John 12:31 “Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.”

And again Ray you need to take note of tenses and context– WILL be driven out is future tense. And has the world already faced judgement?

Comment by onesimus | June 3, 2009
Ray,
Another point regarding your comment here:

“Many premills will believe the doctrines they do based solely on their interpretation of Rev 20, without being aware of the full implications of their stance.In essence , whether you are aware of it or not,by denying that Christ is reigning now[ in a current millennium] you are denying the deity of Christ and the sovereignty of God.”
—
According to your statement above you say that pre-millenial belief denies the deity of Christ and the sovereignty of God. This is because we don’t hold to YOUR view that the millennium is not a literal 1000 future reign of Christ on earth, but is a current non-literal 1000 year church age reign of Christ.

Please consider the implications of your statement. Did God’s sovereignty and Christ’s deity ONLY kick in at the cross or at the start of your alleged “church age millennium”?
Is God’s sovereignty and Christ’s deity determined by an alleged binding of Satan at the cross?

Of course not!

The issue here is not a question of sovereignty and deity; it is a question of how and when different aspects of God’s sovereignly determined program will be fulfilled.

The final aspects of that program are detailed clearly in the latter chapters of Revelation in the sequence given:

1) The return of Jesus
2) defeat of the beast and the false prophet
3) Beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire
4) 1000 year imprisonment of satan and 1000 year reign of Christ and His saints on earth.
5) Judgement, death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.
6) Passing away of the old heaven and earth
7) New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

It has already been established that you agree with ALL of this sequence of events that are detailed from Rev 19 onwards – with the exception of the fourth. There has still not been a reason given why this ONE part of the sequence should be pulled out of the sequence and placed BEFORE all of the other events.

Comment by onesimus | June 4, 2009
Onesimus, you left out an important part of the sequence of Revelation you said is clearly listed in the latter chapers of Revelation…the very thing you accuse Ray, me and amills from doing. Where is Satan loosed and gathering all the nations for the battle? You completely left out Satan. Let me help you and insert it into your premill sequence which needs to be listed twice:

- Satan loosed in order to deceive and gather the nations for the war. All killed.
1) The return of Jesus
2) defeat of the beast and the false prophet
3) Beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire
4) 1000 year imprisonment of satan and 1000 year reign of Christ and His saints on earth.
- Satan loosed in order to deceive and gather the nations for the war. All killed.
5) Judgement, death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.
6) Passing away of the old heaven and earth
7) New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

Maybe, just maybe, John is recapitulaing as he often does in Revelation. Sequences are often interrupted in apocalyptic to add information and history as we find in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah. Maybe, just maybe the war mentioned in Revelation 16, 19 and 20:7-10 is the same battle and only meant to be listed once in the sequence of final events.

But anyway I thought it would be helpful if you listed the proper sequence of events which according to premill must list two loosings of Satan, two deceptions of the nations, two wars against God and two destructions.

Comment by BB | June 4, 2009
My Beloved is Mine And He is Yours Too
Dont touch the cross
Can you possibly explain what you mean by this.

the point i was trying to make was that if you and i have salvation and forgiveness of our sins , then Christ is reigning, he was victorious at the cross, He conquored sin and death at the cross ,He was victorious in that the reign of satan over this world came to an end at the cross.The battle in the heavenlies has been won , what we see on earth is the final battle , and we know from our scriptures that Christ will prevail here also.

Matthew 28:18

ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME

Comment by ray | June 4, 2009
Onesimus
No premill here is denying that Christ is reigning and that God is sovereign

So Onesimus ,if you dont deny that Christ is Reigning and that Matthew 28:18 says
All authority on heaven and on earth has been given to me

Can we be confident in saying that
Christ is reigning ,and he has all authority on Heaven and on Earth.Do you agree with this?,

Onesimus said
They still submit themselves to rule of the god of this world.

This comment is a strange one Onesimus, would it not be that those who refuse to acknowledge Christ personally are simply exercising their free will?.Would this contrast with the millenium as you see it, where people are forced into submission to Christ, and thereby having no freewill?

Matthew 28 :18
ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME.

Onesimus, even read literally, this verse can only mean one thing, that Christ has all authority on heaven and on earth.
If your perception of the reality that we see before us differs from that verse, does that mean that Jesus was not telling us the truth and that in fact He does not have ALL authority?
I put it to you that whatever you see or perceive, it does not alter the fact that Christ has ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND ON EARTH, your opinion is not the truth, when Christ said ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME ,THIS IS THE TRUTH!

NOW IS THE TIME FOR JUDGEMENT ON THIS WORLD, NOW THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD BE DRIVEN OUT.

Onesimus, there is no future tense here, NOW would have to mean NOW.
There is clearly judgement on this world,by the hand of God

2Thess 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of satan with all power and false signs and wonders and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.Therefore God sends them a strong DELUSION ,so that they may believe what is false , in order that all may be CONDEMNED who did not believe the truth ,but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The issue here is absolutely about the sovereignty of God and the reign of Christ.

Comment by ray | June 4, 2009
ray,
You have a habit of fixing on one verse and pushing its meaning to the exclusion of everything else the bible says.

All authority in heaven and on earth is given to Jesus. Fine. It was given to him by the Father, who has ALWAYS had all authority in heaven and on earth. Satan has never been able to do anything that God does/did not permit him to do. This situation will never change.

At the moment, Satan is free to deceive the nations. John says that all the world (that is, non-believers) is in the power of the evil one. That is the situation NOW. It is the situation that will continue until satan is chained up in the abyss, so that he cannot deceive the nations any more. Right NOW, “your adversary the devil, like a roaring lion, walks about seeking someone to devour”. Satan is not bound yet. Isn’t that absolutely clear?

Once he has been chained up, he will be kept chained for the period of the millennium, 1000 years, and then he will be released again for a short while. When he is released he will deceive the nations again so that everything that still opposes God will be exposed and destroyed. What could be clearer or simpler? The point of this is for God to demonstrate that even in the most ideal circumstances, and with all the benefit of a full knowledge of past history, men who do not want to know God will still rebel against him. Only the grace of God can save us from sin.

Comment by Oliver | June 4, 2009
Now I think it is absoulutely the right time for happymommy to step in with some refreshments. This is not quite the supper of the Lamb, Vic, but I am afraid of some slaughter, as I agree with FriendofMuslims, things are getting a wee bit tense here. How about some freshly roasted Fair Trade coffee to go with the Cinnamon Buns From Heaven? (Never iced tea, Vic! I thought that brew was an abomination to you Brits.) Here’s a link that shows you how to roast your own green coffee beans at home, which are half the price, better quality and store for a year without losing quality. I use an air popcorn popper, its easy and takes only ten minutes.

So no more swill from Starbucks! Source your own beans to assure your conscience that your brew is not the product of a slave’s sweating brow! You will know the joy of java that, ground fresh, smells almost as good as a baking cinnamon bun! Here is how to do it, and where to find the best green beans in the world! http://www.sweetmarias.com/

Comment by Karen Butler | June 4, 2009
Now doesn’t everyone feel a little bit better?

happymommy has her homeschooling mom hat on now and while I would never presume to grade anyones work here, having little real knowledge of the suject at hand, there were certain student’s standouts. Thomas Watkins–
excellent, and to the point, and bears repeating here:

“Well, my take on it is it’s nice to ponder God’s glory, but wishing for or defining Prophetic events does not mean that you participate in them. If you fall away in the soon coming great tribulation, it is all but a moot point and interesting revelation, and Yes!..the redeemed will participate in Ruling and reigning with Jesus for 1000 years…but getting there is the key.

We must learn how to Love! We must bear the fruit of a holy life to gain any of Christs rewards and honor…and this may come as a shock to some, but faith does not exist in the grey matter between your ears, or your perceptions of the future.”

A teacher is always interested in the questions her students ask, as they often show the learner’s grasp of a subject. I was greatly benefited by the questions Friend of Muslims posed on comment #155,(well worth returning to think about) on May 27, and which Fred London posed again here succinctly,

“185.Here is the $64 dollar question: If there is a literal Millenium, what would be the purpose of it? Can all of this be spiritualized away and yet maintain theological integrity? Is there a relationship between this question and God’s purposes for Israel to finally fulfill its original calling as “a light to the nations?” Why would there be the need for Christ to administer a “rod of iron” rule if, at that point, “Christ is all in all?”

I have been too busy piecing back together my imploded life these past few years to worry about the endtimes eschatology I am sure my Sovereign God has well in hand. This debate has been helpful to me, as the the millenium has always filled me with a little bit of dread, it feels wearying and pointless. Why released again, Lord? Why must the Dragon ravage the world again? Why can’t we be with you and be done with sadness?

I began to ask the Lord these questions again, and it has been interesting to hear your lively debate. One thing that has been ringing in my ears, is the idea of what dread event remains: The White Throne Judgement, when the Book is opened. He will be seen as just when He judges, and will be admired among all who believe. When Eden is restored, yet still some fall away, and when we see it with our own eyes, will we not sing resoundingly, all together now, the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb,

“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the Saints!
Who shall not fear You,
O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and
worship before You,
For Your judgments have
been manifested.”

All things will be put under His beautiful feet, and all things will then be made new. Every tear will be wiped away, and no-one will accuse Him of any wrong, no, never again. How I long for that day! Thank you all for increasing the fervor of my cry, Maranatha, Lord Jesus!

And for this present age, for now, “we must learn to love!”

Comment by Karen Butler | June 4, 2009
Just a simple comment: God has always had “all authority, dominion, honor, power, glory, strength…”

He has chosen to allow satan access to His creation since the beginning. This does not mean He has abdicated His authority. It means He made a decision regarding His creation.

At some point, God will deny satan access to His creation. The WHEN is the question. Is it now? I maintain that simple observation coupled with the warnings of Scripture will disabuse anyone of this notion. Were not the writings of Peter and the letters to the churches in Rev. penned after the Cross?

In God the Father’s wisdom and timing, the Lord Jesus will reign on the earth in His physical body. Again, simple observation and knowledge of history denies that this is the current state of affairs. So even though the Lord Jesus has all authority, He is not physically here on the earth demonstrating His authority, meting out judgment and enforcing His will. I think everybody will know it when He does.

There are many biblical prophecies still awaiting fulfillment. Our instructions are to watch, wait, remain holy and make disciples.

Comment by anna | June 4, 2009
BB said:
“Onesimus, you left out an important part of the sequence of Revelation you said is clearly listed in the latter chapers of Revelation…the very thing you accuse Ray, me and amills from doing.”

—-
BB this is getting to be more than ridiculous. Apart from posting the WHOLE text of revelation what do you want me to do?
It’s abundantly clear if you read and accept Rev 19 onwards AS IT IS WRITTEN. Satan can’t be released to gather the nations until AFTER he has been imprisoned for 1000 years. Or do you intended to do a further cut and past job on the scriptures?

You have agreed to every other part of the sequence of event s revealed in Rev 19 onwards apart from the events associated with the 1000 years. The imprisonment of Satan is at the beginning of the 1000 years. His release is at the end. You remove those events and everything between them and change their timing and their nature to suit your theological viewpoint.

There is NO reason to think premills believe in two loosings of Satan. That would only be required to suit your own misinterpretation of Satan’s position today.

You said:
“Maybe, just maybe, John is recapitulaing as he often does in Revelation.’

It is a very big “Maybe”
The only reason to assume that in this situation is so you can force scripture to agree with your own theology. Considering the 1000 years is part of a smooth flow of events – there is no indication at all that John is merely “recapitulating”.

————————————

Ray said:
“He was victorious in that the reign of Satan over this world came to an end at the cross.”

The Apostle John said:
““The whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” (1 Jn 5:19)

I ask:
Now who should we believe in this situation?

———

Ray said:
“This comment is a strange one Onesimus, would it not be that those who refuse to acknowledge Christ personally are simply exercising their free will?.Would this contrast with the millenium as you see it, where people are forced into submission to Christ, and thereby having no freewill?”

Who says there won’t be free will in the millennium? People will no more be forced into submission to Christ than they are forced into submission to the governments today. But those who do not submit to Christ and His rule will be dealt with in justice, unlike the situation in the world today.

————————–

Ray said:
“ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME.
Onesimus, even read literally, this verse can only mean one thing, that Christ has all authority on heaven and on earth.”

Ray, God has ALWAYS had ALL authority on heaven and on earth. And He uses that authority according to His own purposes. He has revealed those purposes in scripture, and He has revealed how his purposes will be carried out. Those purposes include a 1000 period in which Satan’s deceiving influence on the nations will be curtailed; and Jesus will literally reign on earth from an earthly throne.

Those purposes also include a period PRIOR to those 1000 years in which Satan will have freedom to deceive the nations (see 1 John 5:19 again). We are in that period now.

———————————
Ray MISQUOTE:
“NOW IS THE TIME FOR JUDGEMENT ON THIS WORLD, NOW THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD BE DRIVEN OUT.”

And then said”
“Onesimus, there is no future tense here, NOW would have to mean NOW.
There is clearly judgement on this world,by the hand of God”

Firstly has God’s judgment already fallen on this world?

And what about that very important word that you missed from your misquote?

**WILL**

“Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world **WILL** be driven out.”

“Will be” is definitely FUTURE tense!!!

Comment by onesimus | June 4, 2009
Having authority and exercising that authority are two different things. “No man takes My life, but I lay it down…” Jesus had the authority to call down legions to prevent his having to go to the Cross, but that would not have been according to the Father’s Divine purposes, “who although he existed in the form of God, did not equate equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-sevant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

The devil still “roams about like a roaring lion…” There is still the ongoing conflict of spiritual warfare. The Church is not yet a “Bride without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.” Israel as a nation, according to God’s covenant and and promises, has yet to be redeemed. Men still work by the sweat of their brow, woman still experience pain in child-birth and humans still die. “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but THEN face to face; NOW I know in part, but THEN I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.”

We must understand that “there is a time for every purpose under heaven.” We must understand that there is a difference between the positional and the experiential. We are “seated in heavenly places” and yet we are still subject to living in a fallen world. Thankfully, “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. The phrase, “he that is in the world,” is expressed in the present tense. “The time of “Christ being all in all” and “filling all things” is yet “for an appointed time.” “It does not yet appear what we shall be. We know that, WHEN he appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.”

Comment by Fred London | June 5, 2009
Oliver said
ray ,you have a habit of fixing on one verse and pushing its meaning to the exclusion of everything else the bible says.

Oliver , i dare say we wouldn’t be having this disscussion if some here on this thread didn’t insist on reading Rev 20 to the exclusion of all other scripture.
There can be no scripture that is exclusive to any other, if the bible contradicted itself , it would no longer be the word of God.
Interpreting scripture involves the consideration of ALL the relevant passages , comparing scripture with scripture, so that one puts in perspective the full picture.

Matthew 28:18
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

Oliver, this verse is absolutely fundamental to the believers understanding of the Kingdom of God.
We have an assurance of salvation because Christ has all authority.
Does this verse present a problem to you?.Just a simple yes or no answer will suffice.

Comment by ray | June 5, 2009
Dear Fred L:

Another question to you about what you wrote:

“… Jesus had the authority to call down legions to prevent his having to go to the Cross, but that would not have been according to the Father’s Divine purposes…”

And likewise, I would add, we also do NOT have the right or authority to call down angels to avenge ourselves in this physical realm we find ourselves in, correct?

Jesus prefaced His soliloquy on ‘calling down angels” to avenge His arrest at Gethsamane by the Temple Guard by saying “IF My kingdom was of this world, THEN I would call down My angels”… BUT My kingdom is NOT of this world, so I do not.

And would you therefore add, Fred, that neither do we have the right to “call down angels” to fight any battle in flesh and blood because we are ambassadors to Christ’s heavenly kingdom?

There is a NAR reason to ask this. Just want your insight.

Comment by AriseMyLove | June 5, 2009
MY brother Onesimus: It was a simple thing for you to do to admit you completely left out Satan’s 1000 year punishment even in your own list of sequences. Not even ONE mention of him being chained for 1000 years much less the two that are required in your position. It was interesting to see how you refused to admit your error.

I took the liberty to list two loosings because that is what premill teaches. According to 2Thess. 2 the restraint is lifted so the lawless one can be revealed. This restraint is removed so Satan can deceive the nations in order to assemble them for the war. This is the very thing we are all waiting for NOW… is it not???

For you to cop out by saying you aren’t going to list everything in the sequence of events is a little disingenuous don’t you think? You’re the one who made the list in order to point out our error. Shouldn’t we be allowed to do the same? Your unwillingness to admit your mistake followed by your attack on me is disappointing and is the signal to stop on this thread.

Thanks Karen Butler for your wisdom and pointing out that if we have not love we have nothing really. A cinnamon bun and a hot cup of coffee sounds good to me…

Comment by BB | June 5, 2009
It seems that some are looking for Jesus to rip out the tares of this world
Matthew 13:28-30 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Though he has all authority in heaven and earth and would have every reason to do so, he chose to not do so in order to not risk the harvest.

Comment by gyod | June 5, 2009
arisemylove qrote:

Dear Fred L:

Another question to you about what you wrote:

“… Jesus had the authority to call down legions to prevent his having to go to the Cross, but that would not have been according to the Father’s Divine purposes…”

And likewise, I would add, we also do NOT have the right or authority to call down angels to avenge ourselves in this physical realm we find ourselves in, correct?

Jesus prefaced His soliloquy on ‘calling down angels” to avenge His arrest at Gethsamane by the Temple Guard by saying “IF My kingdom was of this world, THEN I would call down My angels”… BUT My kingdom is NOT of this world, so I do not.

And would you therefore add, Fred, that neither do we have the right to “call down angels” to fight any battle in flesh and blood because we are ambassadors to Christ’s heavenly kingdom?

There is a NAR reason to ask this. Just want your insight.

Comment by AriseMyLove | June 5, 2009

———————————————-

I believe that though part of the ministry of angels is to serve as “ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation,” they do not respond to our commands, but to God’s alone. Angels may come to our aid by working behind the scenes, so to speak, in response to prayer in the midst of spiritual warfare, but it is in response to God’s direction.

Some have the erroneous and irreverant idea that angels can be ordered around like some lackey at the snap of our fingers. Angels are not to be trifled with. They are powerful, holy beings. They may serve men, but are not servants of men. They only serve according to God’s commands and not ours.

Now, if I misunderstood your question and did not answer it according to what you intended, please feel free to restate it and I’ll try to be more accurate a second time.

Comment by Fred London | June 5, 2009
Dear Fred L:

No, I loved what you wrote. Many of my confused friends in the NAR have been taught so much garbage about angels, that they confuse the Holy Spirit with Angels.

Great explanation of yours here: “…Some have the erroneous and irreverant idea that angels can be ordered around like some lackey at the snap of our fingers. Angels are not to be trifled with. They are powerful, holy beings. They may serve men, but are not servants of men. They only serve according to God’s commands and not ours….” THANK YOU.

Comment by AriseMyLove | June 5, 2009
A Totally Untrue Story

Mrs. W. had many lovely children, among whom were two godly young men, Jay and Chuck. They got along well enough, but one day when she took the tea tray into her dear sons, she heard them quarreling hotly about what was greater in the kingdom, the worship of the Lord with music that is angel-breathed, so profound being the words, so majestic the sound of it. The other said not so, it was the preaching of the word, with God-breathed reasoning from the Scripture that pierced mens souls, it was this revelation that was greater. Mrs. W. sat through the discussion with her apron over her head, and sometimes her sob or her sigh could be heard over the fractious din of her boy’s increasingly heated discussion, and as they were quite used to this odd behaviour of their mother’s, they took no notice of it. At last, the young men humbled themselves, and admitted their faults to one another, and agreed to disagree until more light was shed, so there might be love between them. Mrs. W. quietly took her apron down from her face, and cleared the tea things.

When she had left the room, Jay leaned over and murmured to his brother “You know, sometimes I wonder if she is even saved.”

Comment by Karen Butler | June 6, 2009
Dear Fred L:

No, I loved what you wrote. Many of my confused friends in the NAR have been taught so much garbage about angels, that they confuse the Holy Spirit with Angels.

Great explanation of yours here: “…Some have the erroneous and irreverant idea that angels can be ordered around like some lackey at the snap of our fingers. Angels are not to be trifled with. They are powerful, holy beings. They may serve men, but are not servants of men. They only serve according to God’s commands and not ours….” THANK YOU.

Comment by AriseMyLove | June 5, 2009

———————————————–

AriseMyLove,

Appreciate the affirmation. I also appreciate and identify with your concerns about the NAR and all the baggage that comes along with it. In fact, I have been thrown off of several blogs because I had the audacity to challenge the spiritual voracity and authenticity of this movement from a Scriptural viewpoint. Scripural accountability, is not simply a suggestion, but a mandate, which has not only been ignored, but denegrated.

And so, liberty has been turned into license, and the manifestations and teaching, if you can even call it that, have gone from unbiblical to extrabilbical. We are in the midst of a glut of “speaking that which the Lord has not spoken,” along with a people lacking in the most fundamental exercise of discernment. This is, indeed, a lethal combination.

May God raise up men who will have both the burden and capablility to “teach the people to know the difference between the holy and the profance,” the real Jesus as opposed to “another Jesus,” the true gospel as opposed to “another gospel.” This is the issue and challenge of our age.

Comment by Fred London | June 6, 2009
Very nice story Karen! I’m sure I will use it somewhere!
Cinnamon buns and coffee sound rather a good idea for everyone. Unfortunately (or fortunately!) e-food is not yet a reality
Grace and peace

Comment by Friend of Muslims | June 8, 2009
BB said:
9. “MY brother Onesimus: It was a simple thing for you to do to admit you completely left out Satan’s 1000 year punishment even in your own list of sequences. Not even ONE mention of him being chained for 1000 years much less the two that are required in your position. It was interesting to see how you refused to admit your error.”
—–
BB that was no error. I left it out PURPOSELY to show that you agree to everything else from Rev 19 happening in sequence but for some reason you choose not to believe that the 1000 years is ALSO part of that continuous sequence.

I thought I made this clear in my subsequent posts where I drew your attention to that fact.

Again BB, why accept all of the other events as happening sequentially as you have admitted – but then omit the events recorded as happening in the 1000 years?
Why do you “spiritualise” a very real imprisonment of Satan? Why do you “spiritualise” the removal of Satan’s deceiving power over the nations? Why do you “spiritualise” a 1000 year literal reign of Jesus ON THIS EARTH from an EARTHLY THRONE that was prophesied multiple times throughout scripture?

Comment by onesimus | June 9, 2009
Onesimus
This passage has been mentioned previously on this thread,and it , like all other scripture point to a 2nd and final coming of Christ ,followed by eternity.Anyhow , here for your close scrutiny is 2 Peter 3

This is now the second letter that i am writing to you, beloved.In both of them i am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles, knowing this first of all , that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their sinful desires. They will say ” where is the promise of his coming”?.
For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored for fire, being kept until the DAY OF JUDGEMENT AND DESTRUCTION OF THE UNGODLY.
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved , that with the Lord one DAY IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS , AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY. The Lord is not slow to fulfil His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME LIKE A THIEF, AND THEN THE HEAVENS WILL PASS AWAY WITH A ROAR, AND THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL BE BURNED UP AND DISSOLVED, AND THE EARTH AND THE WORKS THAT ARE DONE ON IT WILL BE EXPOSED.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved , what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, BECAUSE OF WHICH THE HEAVENS WILL BE SET ON FIRE AND DISSOLVED , AND THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL MELT AS THEY BURN!. BUT ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE WE ARE WAITING FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH IN WHICH RIGHTEOUSNESS DWELLS.

Matthew 24:42
Therefore stay awake , for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this ,THAT IF THE MASTER OF THE HOUSE HAD KNOWN IN WHAT PART OF THE NIGHT THE THIEF WAS COMING, he would have stayed awake and not have let his house be broken into.

When Christ returns like a thief ,will these things occur, He can hardly return in this manner if He is supposedly here already!

BTW , its impossible not to spiritualise satans binding , because he is a spirit. Do you suppose that spirits can be bound by physical means?

Comment by ray | June 12, 2009
Ray,
The revelation that Peter gives here is PARTIAL.
The revelation given to John fills in more detail of ALL of the very last events from Revelation 19 onwards. There is no reason to discount the completeness of that account merely because a previous and less complete revelation does not include all the detail of those events.

In the book of Revelation John touches upon the passing away of this earth in a brief statement in between the description of the millennium and the judgement. [“Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them”.]
Peter describes the destruction of the current heavens and earth in more detail than John but I don’t discount Peter’s description merely because John doesn’t share the same full description of that event.

Using the silence of one part of scripture in order to deny the clear revelation of another part of scripture is NOT a practice I would endorse.
—

regarding the “spiritualising” of satan’s imprisonment – let’s look at the WHOLE question I asked:

Why do you “spiritualise” a very real imprisonment of Satan? Why do you “spiritualise” the removal of Satan’s deceiving power over the nations? Why do you “spiritualise” a 1000 year literal reign of Jesus ON THIS EARTH from an EARTHLY THRONE that was prophesied multiple times throughout scripture?
—
The argument you raise of satan being spirit is merely side-stepping the real issue.
Whether satan is spirit or not, his imprisonment is very REAL and it cuts off his deceptive power for 1000 years. Jesus literal 1000 reign on this earth will be very real – otherwise most of the old testament prophets were liars and deceivers.

Comment by onesimus | June 14, 2009
Onesimus said:
BB that was no error. I left it out PURPOSELY to show that you agree to everything else from Rev 19 happening in sequence but for some reason you choose not to believe that the 1000 years is ALSO part of that continuous sequence.

I thought I made this clear in my subsequent posts where I drew your attention to that fact.

________________________________
Onesimus: I refer to your post on June 4 where you list YOUR sequence of events. You clearly made a mistake and listed the 1000 years but left out the punishment of Satan. Where is the rebellion at the end of the thousand years and where is his punishment of being thrown into the Lake of Fire? You took the time to list the beast and false prophet into the Lake of Fire, why not the SECOND rebellion of Satan and his punishment? Again, this is your list:

**************************************************
Onesimus wrote:
The final aspects of that program are detailed clearly in the latter chapters of Revelation in the sequence given:

1) The return of Jesus
2) defeat of the beast and the false prophet
3) Beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire
4) 1000 year imprisonment of satan and 1000 year reign of Christ and His saints on earth.
5) Judgement, death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.
6) Passing away of the old heaven and earth
7) New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

Comment by onesimus | June 4, 2009
_______________________________________________________

Comment by BB | June 15, 2009
Onesimus said:
Again BB, why accept all of the other events as happening sequentially as you have admitted – but then omit the events recorded as happening in the 1000 years?

I don’t ‘omit’ the events that occur in the 1000 years. I simply see the thousand years as a time that began with the reigning of Jesus at His ascension to sit on His throne then. Since He was rejected by the nation of Israel He had to sit on His throne somewhere, so it was in Heaven. He came to Israel as their king to sit on the throne of David THEN, but they rejected Him and killed Him, so He ascended to rule over the nations as His Father’s right hand, in the Jerusalem above which is now our mother. The current Jerusalem is Hagar, Sodom and Egypt. It symbolizes Mt. Sinai.

Onesimus said:
Why do you “spiritualise” a very real imprisonment of Satan? Why do you “spiritualise” the removal of Satan’s deceiving power over the nations?

You fail to read and understand which is why I stopped on this thread but will try this one more time. The binding of Satan is REAL. He has been cast down to the earth (Rev. 12) into the darkness which is tatarus or blackness of darkness according to Peter and Jude. He was permitted access to Heaven until Jesus settled the controversy and slander at the cross where Satan was disarmed. Satan was displaced as ruler and Jesus took His place because of His victory. Satan is imprisoned in this darkness as the angels who sinned were imprisoned at the flood (2Peter 2:4). But this doesn’t mean he cannot roam the earth deceiving and blinding people, but does mean he is confined to the darkness. Since Jesus is the Ruler, Satan is not permitted to deceive the nations and as verse 7 and 8 tells us, in order to assemble the nations to follow Him in order to attack God’s people.

Onesimus said:
Why do you “spiritualise” a 1000 year literal reign of Jesus ON THIS EARTH from an EARTHLY THRONE that was prophesied multiple times throughout scripture?

The 1000 years simply refers to a long period of time. Isn’t that what has happened since His ascension…..a long period of time? Again, the Jews didn’t want Him to rule over them so He had to rule from Heaven. There will be no earthly rule of Jesus for a literal 1000 years over nations that are unbelieving and ready to rebel the moment the devil is loosed from literal chains and literal locks and a literal hole in the earth as you believe.

As I stated above, the earth will be in ruins after the judgments and wrath of God are poured out on the earth. Great earthquakes and great volcanoes will leave all cities, buildings, streets, electric, plumbing in complete and utter shambles….with dead bodies lying everywhere. The sea is made blood and all the green grass is burned up and this is the earth Jesus comes to rule over???

All that John does in Revelation 20 is back up to the beginning of Satan’s punishment which was confinement in the darkness because of Jesus’ victory at the cross. The martyrs are raised as they are killed and rise to sit with Christ during the 1000 years. Then John mentions again that Satan is the one who leads the final rebellion (7-10) but does not succeed as God destroys Him by casting him into the Lake of Fire.

I believe he has already been loosed to gather the nations to make war against God’s people, the remnant. We can see the axis of evil forming even in front of our faces. We can see the collapse of the global banking system in front of our very eyes. Soon the AC will appear with lying signs and wonder in a strong delusion to deceive those who do not love the truth. Only those with the mark will be able to buy. Then at the midnight hour, God will shake the heavens and the earth as His people look up. No more 1000 years. Nothing more to prove. No more evil. No more rebellion. No more Satan’s tricks. Once He comes it’s all over.

peace

Comment by BB | June 15, 2009
BB said:
Onesimus: I refer to your post on June 4 where you list YOUR sequence of events. You clearly made a mistake and listed the 1000 years but left out the punishment of Satan. Where is the rebellion at the end of the thousand years and where is his punishment of being thrown into the Lake of Fire? You took the time to list the beast and false prophet into the Lake of Fire, why not the SECOND rebellion of Satan and his punishment? Again, this is your list:
————-

BB I see what you mean about my list now. Sorry for the confusion. But does MY error make any difference to what scripture CLEARLY says? Just look at scripture and you will see that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the 1000 years has ended.

You can add your own interpretation and opinions into what you think the 1000 years represents as much as you like. But you STILL do not explain why you accept all of the other events described from Rev 19 onwards as being sequential but you rip the 1000 years out of that sequence and reinterpret it to mean something totally different to what is clearly described.

Why should the 1000 years be ripped out of the clearly stated sequence of events? There is NO reason. Doing so, and denying the literal earthly reign of Jesus from an earthly throne, makes the Old Testament prophets into liars and deceivers, since most (if not all) of them prophesied such an earthly reign.

Or maybe God made a mistake when He inspired their prophesies. Maybe God was taken by surprise by Israel’s continued rebellion and their rejection of their messiah? Maybe He had to put plan “B” into action?

NO!!!

God KNEW the outcome and prophesied that outcome AS IT WOULD HAPPEN.
HE has it under control and will fulfil HIS promises and prophecies in the way HE said they would be fulfilled. And one day Israel WILL recognise their messiah and He WILL reign over them from His earthly throne.

Comment by onesimus | June 16, 2009
“No more evil. No more rebellion. No more Satan’s tricks. Once He comes it’s all over.

peace”
–from BB’s comment above

marana tha!
(our Lord, come!)

Comment by NOTW67 | June 17, 2009
BB said:
As I stated above, the earth will be in ruins after the judgments and wrath of God are poured out on the earth. Great earthquakes and great volcanoes will leave all cities, buildings, streets, electric, plumbing in complete and utter shambles….with dead bodies lying everywhere. The sea is made blood and all the green grass is burned up and this is the earth Jesus comes to rule over???

—-

Is this the earth Jesus will come to rule over? Yes, in the beginning of His reign.

What makes this hard to accept? A preconception that Jesus shouldn’t be faced with such an earth? Or because scripture says He won’t start his rule over such conditions?
Since scripture clearly says He WILL rule on earth the answer cannot be the latter.

Comment by onesimus | June 17, 2009
Onesimus
I didn’t really want to state the obvious, i thought that you may have picked that up yourself, but 2 Peter 3 states explicitly that when Christ returns as a thief in the night that the heavens and earth will be dissolved and a new heavens and earth created!.It is for this reason that i believe the millenial reign of Christ is NOW.
If the truth of scripture is unable to convince you of this , then i most certainly will not do so either.As i have stated previously on this thread, when you come this understanding it will be by the Holy Spirit. All i suggest is that you reconsider all the arguments put to you
with an open mind.
God Bless

Comment by ray | June 18, 2009
“Satan is imprisoned in this darkness as the angels who sinned were imprisoned at the flood (2Peter 2:4). But this doesn’t mean he cannot roam the earth deceiving and blinding people, but does mean he is confined to the darkness.”
What? That is quite a lot of confusion and inconsistency in one sentence. Well, on one hand he is bound but on the other hand he is still on the loose.
While 1000 years are a long time you still do not give any evidence that it can be attributed to the time from the ascension of Jesus.
“The sea is made blood and all the green grass is burned up and this is the earth Jesus comes to rule over???”
Now what kind of God are you serving? To clean up this mess does not need more than the blink of an eye for God. In Revelation it is mentioned that the mountains will be leveled and there will be no more islands. This speaks of a major landscaping. Can you give an example when this is going to happen?
Revelation 2:26-27 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
This will be fulfilled after our departure from this earth.
So, according to your timetable this will be in heaven.
This would be odd, wouldn’t it?
“The martyrs are raised as they are killed and rise to sit with Christ during the 1000 years.”
So there is an ongoing resurrection going on? So the last will have five minutes to reign with Christ? They will reign with Christ a thousand years. This makes it mandatory that there will be a fix point in time for the start in the future for as long as there are people dieing for Him, the fullness of the heathen is not reached yet (remember the souls under the altar)
Well, let us see to it that we will be found worthy to stand in His presence, everything else will fall into place then.

Comment by gyod | June 20, 2009
Onesimus
I didn’t really want to state the obvious, i thought that you may have picked that up yourself, but 2 Peter 3 states explicitly that when Christ returns as a thief in the night that the heavens and earth will be dissolved and a new heavens and earth created!.It is for this reason that i believe the millenial reign of Christ is NOW.
If the truth of scripture is unable to convince you of this , then i most certainly will not do so either.As i have stated previously on this thread, when you come this understanding it will be by the Holy Spirit. All i suggest is that you reconsider all the arguments put to you
with an open mind.
God Bless

———-

Ray do I have to repeat the obvious.

What Peter reveals is PARTIAL. John ADDS to that.

John mentions very little about the destruction of this earth and the creation a new earth. Peter mentions MORE about that specific event.
Do I discount Peter’s account because it isn’t mentioned in detail by John?

It all comes down to one thing.
Do you believe the WHOLE revelation given in scripture or do you only accept the parts that seem to agree with your theology.

The MOST RECENT and MOST COMPLETE revelation states specifically (several times) that a 1000 year period will come when Satan is imprisoned and denied his deceiving power. IN that 1000 years Jesus will rule with His saints on earth as prophesied countless times throughout scripture (are all those prophets liars?). At the end of that 1000 years satan will be released and will gather an army against God’s people. That army will be destroyed by fire from heaven, satan will be thrown into the lake of fire, THEN will come the second resurrection followed by the judgement.

According to your theology satan is already bound by Jesus’ victory on the cross. I have yet to find scriptural evidence of such binding at that time and I find no evidence, scriptural or otherwise that satan no longer deceives the nations. All evidence points to the contrary.

According to scripture satan WILL BE bound AND imprisoned BY AN ANGEL (not Jesus) AND stripped of his ability to deceive the nations. IF your theology was true I would have question Jesus’ ability to bind satan since he is STILL clearly deceiving the nations.

You will never convince me that your theology is true because it clearly contradicts the plain simple truth as revealed in scripture. It also contradicts the majority of the OT prophets as well as most of the NT writers.

Any revelation given by the Holy Spirit will NOT confirm your theology because the Spirit NEVER contradicts His word.

I have no need to reconsider any man’s arguments when those arguments lerad to a conclusion that contradicts the clear revelation given in scripture.

Jesus WILL reign from an earthly throne for 1000 years.
Satan WILL be imprisoned and rendered powerless for 1000 years.
That 1000 years is NOT the current church age for obvious reasons.

Comment by onesimus | June 23, 2009
Onesimus

Please remove the blindfold so that you might be enlightened!

Onesimus said
According to your theology satan is already bound by Jesus victory on the cross.I have yet to find scriptural evidence of such binding at that time and i find no evidence,scriptural or otherwise that satan no longer deceives the nations.All evidence points to the contrary.

Rev 5:5
And one of the the elders said to me,Weep no more, behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.

Collosians 2:15
By canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands.This He set aside , nailing it to the cross.He disarmed the rulers and authorities and putthem to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him

Hebrews 2:14
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil

Matthew 28: 18
And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Onesimus , it has become quite evident that we serve different Gods.
Your God is not sovereign, has not bestowed ALL authority to Christ as Jesus said in Matt 28:18 , and consequently you are not saved.
The God that has saved me by his grace , sent His only Son to die on a cross where satan was defeated, whereby Christ was given ALL authority in heaven and on earth, and where He currently reigns with His saints in heaven and on earth.
This is not my theology, this is clearly Gods theology.By all means, argue this with God if you dare.Im through with taking this any further with you. In my opinion , you are willfully denying scripture that is being put before you and i am not going to waste any more time on this.
I will say though, that i am grateful for the opportunity to debate this topic , as it has only served to reinforce my belief that when Christ returns , then we will forever be with Him in eternity.

Comment by ray | June 24, 2009
Ray thanks for the condemnation.

Why is it that I don’t serve the true God (I assume you consider YOU serve the true God).
Because I take HIS word literally and at face value. That when HIS word prophesies a future time when Satan will be imprisoned and stripped of His deceptive power I BELIEVE IT AS WRITTEN.

Where in the verses you quote does it speak of satan’s imprisonment and his ability to deceive the nations being stopped all together?

THAT is the claim you are making if you equate satan’s state NOW with the state predicted in Revelation 20. You have NOT shown in scripture that Jesus has yet done that to satan to the extent depicted in revelation.

My God IS sovereign and that means He has done and will do things HIS way as HE has revealed in HIS word. HE will do things according to HIS timetable as HE has shown in HIS word.

I’M wilfully denying scripture?
Who is it that is denying the clear and simple truth of what is described in Revelation 20? Who is it that is twisting and manipulating what scripture says attempting to make it mean something that it clearly is NOT saying.

If, as YOU insist, satan has been TOTALLY imprisoned (he’s not merely bound in Rev 20) and he no longer deceives the nations (as Rev 20 states) then your understanding of the effectiveness of Jesus’ victory must be very inadequate.

However Revelation 20 states, there is a FUTURE time when Satan will be TOTALLY imprisoned and incapacitated. Until then God has HIS reasons for allowing satan the freedom to deceive the nations.

Ray said:”I will say though, that i am grateful for the opportunity to debate this topic , as it has only served to reinforce my belief that when Christ returns , then we will forever be with Him in eternity.”

I am also grateful for the opportunity to be made more aware of an important time in God’s purposes, where many (to date) unfulfilled prophesies will come to pass.

Also, when Christ returns it will be the beginning of an eternity with Him – firstly on THIS earth, reigning with Him for 1000 years; then on a NEW earth created after the judgement. A NEW earth where only righteousness will dwell.

Comment by onesimus | June 25, 2009
ray, by every scripture you use, you are implying things that aren’t said. Just because Jesus Christ has been given all authority in heaven and on earth does not mean, he is executing it all the time. You are twisting scripture to fit to your belief system. Many Christians soothe themselves with the thought:”Jesus Christ has won the victory.”
Ok, so? Unless you stand firm in the faith and resist the devil, this will do you little good.

Comment by gyod | July 12, 2009
gyod
The truth of scripture speaks for itself, i simply can’t by implication or by any other means ,make scripture say anything other than what is the truth of Gods word.And as for twisting scripture to fit ones belief system, theres plenty of that going on here!.
It seems very strange to me that we all want to partake of the spoils of victory{salvation} but no one wants to acknowledge that Christ is reigning.You can’t have it both ways.
By the way , i do “soothe” myself with the knowledge that Christ has won the victory, and its because of that victory that we can all stand in faith and resist the devil.There is nothing of our own that we can claim any victory,Christ has done it all.
Praise God

Comment by ray | July 13, 2009
Ray said:
“but no one wants to acknowledge that Christ is reigning”

—

Ray I have not seen anyone disagree with the fact that Christ is reigning.
But there is coming a time (prophesied throughout scripture countless times) when he will reign IN BODY from an EARTHLY throne over literal nations as a visible KING.
That reign will start after His return to earth and will last for 1000 years as stated in scripture. This will be followed by satan being thrown into the lake of fire and then the judgement.

During the 1000 year reign satan will be literally imprisoned and have his deceiving power totally removed from the earth.

But anyone can find that out by reading and believing Revelation 19 onwards.

Comment by onesimus | July 14, 2009
Zechariah 13
1 “In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.

What fountain was opened? It was a fountain for sin and for uncleanness. This fountain was opened by the death of Jesus on the cross. What else could this possibly be talking about??? Jesus is the Fountain of Life. That is one fact that is indisputable.

2 “It shall be in that day,” says the LORD of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land. 3 It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the LORD.’ And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies.
4 “And it shall be in that day that every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive. 5 But he will say, ‘I am no prophet, I am a farmer; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.’

Notice verse four talks about a robe of coarse hair. That was worn by John the Baptist. But after the Fountain of Life was opened up by the death of Jesus, there would be an end to the OT prophets. We know John was the last prophet. Anyone who from the time of Christ tries to prophecy that the Messiah is yet to come is a false prophet.

6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

This is a prophecy of the crucifixion of Jesus caused by His own people, those who were supposed to be His friends.

7 “ Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
“ Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.

Jesus was struck down and He referred to verse 7 at the Last Supper:

Matthew 26:31 “Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’”

Isn’t it clear from this one quote by our Savior that Zechariah 13 is a prophecy of the death of the Messiah?

8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the LORD,
“ That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

And then we come to the result of Jesus being “wounded in the house of His friends…the nation of israel. “Two thirds shall be cut off and die, but one third shall be left in it.” Clearly verse 8 is a prophecy of what would happen to Israel in 70 AD.

And here in verse 8 is the absolute proof of everything I have been trying to say on this thread. The nation of Israel is prophesied to continue on as God’s people in this one third!!!!!!

They will be tested and refined -(persecuted and martyred). And God will say “THIS IS MY PEOPLE”. Who are these people??? The one third who believed in Him and drank from the Fountain of Life!

If you don’t believe Zechariah 13 teaches this then there is nothing more to discuss and no need to go on to Zechariah 14. Please tell me you agree with what I have said here.

Zech 13 has the very stamp of Jesus our Lord as a prophecy of His death that opened up the fountain of life. PTL!

But the literalists among us butcher this prophecy of the crucifixion of our Lord like they do with the prophecy of His crucifixion in Daniel 9. God have mercy.

**********************
Now I’m going to say something that will shock most of you. I say it in love and I say it so when it happens you might realize that it is the will of the Lord.

There is no doubt that God could have grafted the Nation of Israel in as it says in Romans 11, but notice what was required. Paul wrote “as long as they do not continue in unbelief” (v.23).

Remember that Paul wrote Romans before 70 AD. No doubt he was in much anguish over the nation of Israel’s rejection of the Messiah. He was still hopeful that when the Jews saw the Gentiles full of the Holy Spirit of God and keeping the commandments of God that they would become ‘jealous’ in a godly and spiritual jealousy, repent and be saved. Paul had no idea how close the destruction of Jerusalem was. God gave the Nation of Israel 40 years from Jesus death to repent.

Sadly, 70 A.D. was the end for the “two thirds” who refused to believe. They were cut off and the one third that believed continued on as God’s people and God’s holy nation.

You see, the Jewish people and Jewish prophets could never believe the true prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekiel who told the Jews that God would destroy their city if they didn’t repent. How could God do such a thing? They were the direct descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! But God did destroy their city.

Then again after the fullness of time had come, John the Baptist and Jesus told them that God could makes sons out of the stones if He had to and would destroy the city again if they didn’t repent and receive Jesus as their Messiah. And sadly, God did it again!!!

I say that to say this.

Don’t be surprised if God allows Jerusalem to be destroyed again…in our day! I know that shocks you. But God has done it twice and He can do it again. I was just reading today about Orthodox Jews going around and spitting on Christians. Have you heard about this?

This idea that Jerusalem could be destroyed in our generation will no doubt be just as rejected as it was in Jeremiah’s day and as rejected as it was when Jesus foretold it, but unless the Nation of Israel repents and comes to faith in Jesus the same thing will happen to them and their city as it did in Jeremiah’s day and again in 70 A.D.

Comment by BB | July 15, 2009
This blog still going in circles. Brethren, is there no better way? It is painful to watch. The basic discussion as one would expect has become not the Third Temple” but Israel’s restoration. Perhaps those of us who believe in a restoration and those who do not should just press on with preaching and praying (including one another and for the Jewish nation, whether to be restored or not) and leave the debate for now? However, forgive me, I am drawn in once again with a few comments on BB’s last blog: -

“Orthodox Jews going around and spitting on Christians” – true, and very difficult to handle, but perhaps better than in nearly all of Israel’s neighbours where homes get burned down and believers murdered for saying “Christ is God”.

“Butchering the prophecy” (Zechariah 13) is not being very kind. Zechariah stretches us all, literalists and non-literalists included (Try David Baron for a good literalist commentary). None of us literalists (as far as I can tell) deny that the “fountain for sin and uncleanness” is Calvary itself. But on the day when “the Spirit of prayer and supplication is poured out” and Israel mourns over their Messiah ” as for an ONLY SON”, that fountain will be opened to them as a nation. (and it is to every believer under the same conditions). All of this is prefigured prophetically in Yom Kippur, together with “Trumpets” and “Tabernacles” pointing to the “last of the last days”, Passover, Firstfruits, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost being the Death, Resurrection, Impartation of Truth, Coming of the Spirit pointing to the “first part of the last days”.

Incidentally I agree BB, Jerusalem is surely due for another siege and part worldwide scattering as Zech.14.1-2 indicates. This second prophecy of ch.14 reiterates the history already covered by Zech. 12-13.6; reconciling the two passages needs some good hard thinking, but part of the answer is surely that Ch.14 focusses entirely on Jehovah’s sovereign acting in the matter. Ch.13.7-9 telescopes matters from the cross to the end. Ch.11 which also describes Messiah’s betrayal/death moves on to the destruction of AD 70 “I will deliver them every one into the hand of HIS king” (“We have no king but Caesar”) but this would prefigure also antichrist in a powerful way “The evil shepherd”. Reiteration is one major feature of the whole book.

Messiah’s prayer recorded prophetically by Isaiah (ch.49)
4 –And I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and in vain; nevertheless my judgment is with Jehovah, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith Jehovah, that formed me from the womb to be his servant, that I should bring Jacob again to him; (though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorified in the eyes of Jehovah, and my God shall be my strength;)
6 –and he saith, It is a small thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel; I have even given thee for a light of the nations, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Messiah’s prayer and God’s answer clearly indicate that He will both accomplish His original mission AND be a light to the Gentiles.
May we all be used also in both directions!

Comment by Friend of Muslims | July 15, 2009
Two questions: First…

If Christ has gained full control, then how are there still “rulers, authorities, powers of darkness and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms”? (Eph 6.12)

Or how could the Lord Jesus address the church of Pergamum with these words: “I know where you live, where satan has his throne”? (Rev 2.12)

Second…

Why does it matter whether one is a-, pre-, or post- ? I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’ve just heard people give reasons on both sides and I’m curious what y’all think.

Comment by anna | July 15, 2009
BB said:

Now I’m going to say something that will shock most of you. I say it in love and I say it so when it happens you might realize that it is the will of the Lord.
There is no doubt that God could have grafted the Nation of Israel in as it says in Romans 11, but notice what was required. Paul wrote “as long as they do not continue in unbelief” (v.23).

————————————————-

But let us continue on from verse 23

Romans 11: 24-32
After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: ISRAEL HAS EXPERIENCED A HARDENING IN PART UNTIL THE FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN.
AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, FOR GOD’S GIFTS AND HIS CALL ARE IRREVOCABLE. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Comment by onesimus | July 16, 2009
Romans 11:31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Notice the emphasis on the present and Paul’s use of “NOW”.
Today was the day of Salvation. NOW was the time for them to repent. Paul is not talking about something that would happen 2000 years later.

Paul still held out hope that Israel would repent and receive Christ….THEN, but just a few short laters, God allowed Israel, its city and temple to be destroyed. Now Jews must come by faith into Christ in order to be saved. There is no other way.

Comment by BB | July 16, 2009
oops on my last comment. Of course Christ has full control. He is the LORD and all authority has been given to Him.

What I meant was that the above verses indicate that He is currently not exercising His full control, and that it is not yet time for Him to “rule the nations with a rod of iron.”

I did not want to give the impression that I think He is not Lord of all. sorry.

Comment by anna | July 17, 2009
Onesimus
Firstly , i owe you an apology regarding my statement to the effect that you are not saved{ post 249}, i know from your various posts that you are indeed passionate about your walk with Christ , i make no excuses and again my apologies.
Another aspect of the binding of satan that i had hoped to raise earlier , and one that is partly covered on various threads here,has its roots in the elect.

If we go back to the period before the cross, we are aware that God had taken to Himself a people, the Israelites.By His sovereign will, through the law and sacrifice, there was an atonement that was available for the sin of the people, granted that this also involved obedience on their part.God ’s hand was extended to these people exclusively, and to a small extent , some people outside the Israelites who chose to join them.
But , and this is a big one , what about all the peoples and nations outside of those that had exclusive favour with God, did they not all perish in their sin, were they denied Gods grace and favour?. It is these very people that were on the receiving end of satans deception.
God has His people , the Israelites, and satan had the rest.

Job 1: 6
Now there was day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them.
And the Lord said to Satan, from where did you come?
So Satan answered the lord and said, From going to and fro on the earth , and from walking back and forth on it.

Matthew 4 :8
Again the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain , and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him,All these things I will give to You if You will fall down and worship me

That satan had dominion over the earth , and that his deceiving power was over all except Gods people is undisputable.But forward to the cross where Christ conquored sin and death, and as a consequence , His gospel was to be proclaimed to all the nations, and we witness the binding of satan.Where satan was once able to deceive, the spreading of the gospel to all nations means that his deception is bound.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them , saying,All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that i have commanded you, and lo , I am with you always , even to the end of the age. Amen.

Onesimus, the fact that you observe that satan is deceiving the nations, something that cannot be denied when we look at the parlous state of christianity, leads me to conclude that satan has already been released from his binding, and that the end is surely near.
God bless

Comment by ray | July 19, 2009
Why does it matter whether one is a-, pre-, or post- ? I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’ve just heard people give reasons on both sides and I’m curious what y’all think.

Comment by anna | July 15, 2009

————————
Anna,
Our understanding of the nature and timing of the millennium can affect other aspects of our belief.
You have seen the arguments about Satan already being bound; but those arguments avoid the reality described Revelation 20 in which Satan is totally imprisoned and his power to deceive the nations is totally removed from the earth.
To identify that imprisonment and loss of deceptive power with the situation today gives a false understanding of satan’s position in the world right now. If Revelation 20 describes today’s situation, then satan must be far more powerful than scripture suggests. If he’s had so much affect on the world since his TOTAL imprisonment (the Rev 20 description) then what kind of effect would he have if his deceptive power had not been removed?
Obviously the idea that we are currently living in the period described in Rev 20 is clearly wrong.

The millennium is a time during which many prophecies will be fulfilled. Many specifically relate to the people of Israel. Without that millennial rule of Christ on the earth and from the earth, those prophecies would remain unfulfilled and make God into a liar. Read through all of the OT prophets and there are countless references to that millennial time of Christ’s rule from David’s throne.

Quite clearly the millennium is a significant length of time. A period of 1000 years is not an insignificant part of mankind’s history. I therefore don’t think we should underestimate its importance. Not only is it a significant period time-wise; it will be the most politically significant time in the history of the earth. It will be the only part of this earth’s history during which God’s Kingdom will be established on earth as it is in heaven, where our Holy God’s justice will be dispensed instead of that of corrupt man. It will give a demonstration of the reality of God’s promises. Those promises He was unable to fulfil because of man’s continued disobedience.
That is not to say that all men will live obediently during that time – but their disobedience will be dealt with JUSTLY. There will be no corruption in the government or in the judicial system. No one will get away with their disobedience but they will receive what is deserved.

When we consider some of the things attributed to the millennium we can perhaps get an idea of why it creates so much disagreement and controversy.

It is a time when Satan’s influence is totally removed from the world. I’m sure he likes to keep that fact quiet and so he brings confusion that effectively hides his downfall from mankind. Why else are such clear descriptions of events given in Rev 20 made to seem so confusing?

And it is a time when Jesus establishes His throne on earth, fulfilling God’s covenant with David.
Denying a literal millennium starting AFTER Jesus’ return is a denial of a significant part of Satan’s demise and also a denial of God’s faithfulness to His promises.

Comment by onesimus | July 20, 2009
ray, the Lord Jesus Christ has the final say in everything. But you are implying with reigning that He also overrules the devil in everything. Would it be so, the world would not be in such a bad shape and getting worse. You have no prove that the devil has been locked up since the resurrection of Christ. Remember the dark age? The devil will be on the lose until he will bound the abyss. And you are right with the second one. However many Christians just soothe themselves with the thought but do nothing!

Comment by gyod | July 24, 2009
BB, I have to disagree with you that the fountain was opened when Jesus Christ died on the cross. Zechariah 13 is the followup of chapter 12 and chapter 12 has not happened yet!

Comment by gyod | July 24, 2009

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