Debate About The Third Temple
The third temple has been in the news of late, with talks of sharing the Temple Mount gaining more prominence. The interfaithers seem to be getting on the band-waggon. What think you on this whole subject?
The third temple has been in the news of late, with talks of sharing the Temple Mount gaining more prominence. The interfaithers seem to be getting on the band-waggon. What think you on this whole subject?
I recall Benny Hinn offering special “gifts” in return for donations to rebuild it. NB that he loves rabbis on the platform (as did Kathryn Kuhlman – whom he never met tho you would never know it from the way he talks about her as if he were her best pal)
This is an abomination as JESUS ofered Himself -once and for all time, never to be repeated.
In Hebrews
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
10:20 By a new and living way, which He has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh.
recall how the IMMENSELY strong and thick veil to the Holiest place was torn? That was God shewing that the temple was 100% done with, and finished it off via Titus in 70AD with the complete eradication of both the temple and jerusalem and about 1.5 million rebel Jews.
That was God.
It will be rebuilt. The only question is when and how. At the midpoint of the Tribulation at the latest for then the Antichrist sits in the temple and proclaims that he is god.
The Bible clearly confirms that a rebuilt temple exists in Jerusalem in the last days & that sacrifices & offerings are in place at that time. The Bible also clearly confirms that God’s covenants with Israel were not replaced by God’s covenants with the Church – to suggest otherwise is replacement theology, which is error. As Derek Prince says, “Israel is Israel & the Church is the Church. Israel has a specific identity, a specific destiny & God gave specific covenants to them. The Church has a specific identity & a specific destiny. The Church is not the new Israel”
IF “the temple was 100% done with”, never to be rebuilt:
1. what temple does the Anti-christ desecrate in Jerusalem at the mid-point of the Tribulation?
2. If this temple (that doesn’t exist now but does exist in Jerusalem at the mid-point of the Tribulation) wasn’t a temple that God considered holy, then Scripture wouldn’t speak of desecration but would instead speak of this act by the Anti-christ as being beneficial. (see Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15)
3. what sacrifices & offerings does the Anti-christ put an end to? (see Daniel 9:27)
4. what is the house of prayer in Isaiah 56 that the re-gathered nation come to where burnt offerings & sacrifices are accepted on God’s altar?
5. what is the mountain of the house of the Lord in Micah 4:1-2 & Isaiah 2:2-3?
6. what rebuilt temple OF GOD in Jerusalem does the Anti-christ take his seat in & there proclaim himself as God? (2 Thess 2:4)
7. why does God instruct the children of Israel to observe the feasts & the ordinances given in the Old Testament throughout ALL generations IF “the temple was 100% done with, and finished it off via Titus in 70AD with the complete eradication of both the temple and jerusalem and about 1.5 million rebel Jews” as Lawrence Luprypa suggests?
8. why did the disciples & Paul continue to go to the temple in Jerusalem after the day of Pentecost IF “the temple was 100% done with?”
9. what is the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem that is being trampled on during the mid-period of the Tribulation?
10. why does Luke 24:52-53 state that the disciples returned immediately to Jerusalem & to the temple after the ascension of Christ & that “they were continually in the temple, praising God” IF “the temple was 100% done with” & if the temple was to be replaced by themselves as the Church?
Lawrence might like to consider also:
1. what is the significance of the 2000 plus year gap between the 69 & 70th week of Daniel’s 70 weeks, understanding that the 70th week is the 7 years of great tribulation?
2. How does God deal with the Jews in the Church age, the times of the Gentiles?
3. why does God speak about a partial hardening having come upon Israel “until the fullness of the gentiles” has come in?
4. why does Jesus state “until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled’? (Luke 21:28)
Wouldn’t this be a good thing? I certainly would prefer them sharing a temple than killing each other over it … that’s what we teach our kids to do, right?
Miriam
Good to have you back in circulation. Trust all is well with you. Life is more than Websites.
True, the “Temple of His body” is now the only temple of significance as far as heaven is concerned. However it does seem clear that some kind of temple will be in existence at our Lord’s return for the fulfilment of Dan.9.27, Matt.24.15, 2 Thess.2.4 in which antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation. This temple built without God’s command (and perhaps as a result of last-days covenant with antichrist, under his protection) as it bears the name of God is still regarded by Him as holy and those who desecrate it as coming under judgement.
As Lawrence points out, in this as in the “aliyah” movement, some are “attempting to help God fulfill His own word” and this is all part of the enemy’s distraction to keep us from declaring His word.
Peace and grace
The issue of the third Temple.
I know there are a number of end time theories in regards to the building of the third temple. Currently my view is still neutral as to the rebuilding of the temple in modern times. I know that there is a huge push towards its rebuilding in both Jewish and Christian circles.
If I read Jesus’ prophecy correctly, then this new temple will be used by Satan to rule the world through the beast of revelations. The erection and opening of the third Temple will introduce the most perilous times ever to be unleasehed on Earth. This sounds horrible but it is playing right into God’s hand. He will send his two witnesses to stand outside the temple and preach the Good news of Jesus’ iminent return; much to the disgust of the beast who will have his world wide rule undermined by two witnesses standing outside his “window” crying REPENT! to the rest of the world.
So, this temple may be wrong as far as its purpose for being rebuilt, but it may also be the very thing that causes Jesus to return with heaven’s armies to destroy the kingdom of the antichrist and replace it with his own by destroying all the armies of the earth in one single, short lived battle. What a day that will be. Terror for the wicked but eternal joy for the righteous.
The Jewish temple may well be rebuilt one day, though i very much doubt it, but if it is , it will have nothing to do with the return of Christ.For how can something that was representative of the temple,that is, the sacrifice of animals for the forgiveness of sin , made perfect by the shedding of Christs own blood , revert back to the shadow , and be acceptable to God?.This is blasphemy of the highest order.
Thanks Lawrence for your post, that scripture answers this question admirably.
As usual, I must respond to heresy with the Word.
Jesus completed everything, His sacrifice – God in flesh, crucified for the sins of the world, savior to all.
In 1Timothy
3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. ”
He is the Savior to all, but particularly to us who believe.
ALL the temple laws were summed up in Him, just as He cried out in VICTORY: “IT IS FINISHED” John 19. His last words as a Son of man.
Regarding Israel (and not the Japheth/Ashkenaz/Gomer/Herzl counterfeit tourist trap den of criminals), Jesus stated, to Israel: “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
This was immediately following His parable – which all understood to be Israel – in Matthew 21:33.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them.
21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitude, because they took Him for a prophet.”
He cursed the fig tree, just hours before. Why? BECAUSE THE FIG TREE IS THE SYMBOL OF ISRAEL (Judges 9:10-14; 1 Kings 4:25; Jeremiah 24:1; Hosea 9:10; Micah 4:4; etc.
Then he told the story of the Great King’s Son being murdered, and justice meted out to the people who rejected the Son.
Psalm 2:12 “Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little.”
Jerusalem in the book of Revelation is called what? clue
A third temple?
I believe the so called ‘third’ temple will never play a role in the end time.
It is unlikely that God will order us, or the Jews, to (re)build the temple. As Stephen already said: Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saind the prophet,
Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest. (Acts 7:48-49)
Conclusion: the so called ‘third temple’ would be anachronism in these days.
And if taken literally, then where is the temple as we read revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
So what happened to the so called third temple? Vanished in thin air?
God bless,
Joop
Joop, rev 21:22 refers to the future, to the New Jerusalem. You cannot use this against a temple being built now.
Also there a numerous scriptures which indicate that Israel will be cleansed, sanctified so that they can bring sacrifices, acceptable to God.
If the temple is to be built then it will be down to the Jews. It has no baring on the church. To have Christians pouring money into any rebuilding is foolishness. Any new temple will not be honoured by God.
Today God has his temple and we as Christians are it.
It is also interesting that those who reject “replacement” and call it heresy, do not realise that they are rejecting their own salvation. Are declaring that the Jews have no hope of salvation within the Church. Replacement as taught today has its origions with John Hagee. False antichrist teacher who denies that Jesus was ever the messiah.
Derek Prince comes close behind him with his shepherding teaching. To say that “Israel is Israel & the Church is the Church. Is the same as saying that Israel (Jews) has no place in the church. FOOLISHNESS. That is not New Testament teaching. They need to hear the gospel. The gospel is to be preached to all. The gospel was first preached to the Jews and then us gentiles. Were do we get off declaring like Hagee, that we have no need to preach Jesus to them. That they have some seperate destiny from the church. What about all the JEWISH apostles and those JEWS who embraced the gospel message. What utter foolishness to deny the gospel to them.
Both Jew and gentile are to find their salvation within the finish work of Calvary. Sorry there is NO PLAN B. ONE FOR THE GENTILES AND ONE FOR THE JEWS. Today there is only one apostolic prophetic people. The church is it. The prophecy and its fulfillement that we gentiles would come in started in the OT and found its fulfillement in the New. Together believing Jew and gentile become one people.
Today we are the new Israel read Galatians. It is the church that like Issac become the seed and true heirs of Abraham. To say there is no replacement is like saying that Jesus death did not replace animal sacrifices. Or that the New did not replace the OT. See Book of Hebrews
It is like saying that the new priesthood did not replace levitical priesthood. The “Church” is called the church because its origins is both jewish and connected to all those who throught the ages constitute the body of all believers. Hebrews 11. Which constituted Both Jews and gentile believers from the very begining. The church is the final fulfillement of Gods plan. So that both Jew and gentile together on equal basis may enter into covenant. Gods true spiritual covenant people 1 peter . Whilst I have no doubt that God has still a prophetic place for the Jewish nation. But his desire has never changed since Acts 2. A Jew who gets saved becomes part of the New Testament church.
replacement as taught by Hagee is false and countered to deliberetly get peoples backs up. Biblical replacement replaced the Old covenant under the Law with the New Testament. It does not now or ever exclude any Jewish believer.
To say that this covenant still stands is true only by those who try to adhere to it, but those who are held under it are in bondage and cannot inherit the new promises Gal
The Jews were broken of as Gods people so that they could be brought back in together with us gentiles, Hosea 1, 2 according to faith in the finish work of calvary. Romans 1- is the fact all have sinned Jew and gentile alike. None is righteous NOT ONE. Romans 8 brings the glorious news that Christ can save. The fact some Jews rejected the Gospel does not exclude Jews persay. As Paul tells us that would be foolishness. Jews being grafted in will be glorious. But grafted into what? Jesus (JOHN 15) the true vine. Lets put it another way.
Much is made of the Jews returning to their ancesteral homeland. Do you know that God will exile the Jews from off that land. They are not destined to inherit it. Neither will the palestinians , arabs, or anyone else. It will be good for another thousand years plus and that will be it. What will those nations do then? read book of Revelations New heaven and Earth. Only the redeemed will inherit. Good news is both Jew and gentiles will be there.
First there is the fact Christ destroyed the temple.
Job 12:13-15
13With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.
14Behold, he breaketh down, and it cannot be built again: (Temple) he shutteth up a man, and there can be no opening. (Jesus shuts no man can open (door to salvation)
15Behold, he withholdeth the waters, and they dry up:(dry branches) also he sendeth them out, and they overturn the earth.(Disciples)
Mark 14:58
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Acts 17:6
And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
Then we have the Ark of the covenant Issue.
Its in heaven now.
Jeremiah 3:15-17
15And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. (That’s now)
16And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. (see Hebrews 9)
17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD,to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
No where in the New Testament is there a doctrine of rebuilding the temple or re-establishing the sacrifice or a alternate salvation plan for Jews.
The Root is Jesus Christ, the Natural and the wild are both believers. Some of the natural were broken off because of unbelief. They can only be grafted back in thru belief. The same salvation plan as ours. The Jew was first, then the unbelievers were cut off and the gospel went to the world.
The kingdom was given to those producing the fruit, natural or wild.
Another thing,the only city measured is above, the outer court is not, it is given to be trampled by gentiles (Earthly Jerusalem).
Ephesians 3:4-6
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body(Root), and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
They had the gospel preached to them, it’s over for that generation of Jews who refused. It’s all thru the Gospel, there is no more Jew or Gentile now in Christ. This is the only plan.
He is the temple built without hands.
It was him who tore down the temple.
It was him who stopped the sacrifice and oblation, it was him who cause the feast, sabbaths and new moons to be forgotten, it was him who for the overspreading of abominations made their house desolate and gave the kingdom to others.
All this Jewish stuff is an ent times dellusion. Leave your Fathers(Jewish system of law) and your Mother (earthly Jerusalem the widow) and be married to Christ, your father and New Jerusalem your mother above, the mother of us all.
The Free Woman, the wife.
Jerie
It should be noted that the rebuilding of a Jewish temple may happen, but God will not bless it. In Jeremiah 2:8 God divorced Israel and Judah and sent them into captivity for 70 years. Although a remnant came back and started to rebuild. The mystery of the ark of the covenant remains a mystery. No one knows how it disapeared. Theories abound but it never came back after those 70 years. That means for over 500 years Gods prescence was missing from the temple. Its sacrifices and offerings were never conducted under the prescence of God. The priests carried on offering sacrifices but without the ark they could not be accepted. God was not at home. The rebuilding of a new temple by the Jews may well happen, but its significance to God will be nothing more than a man made structure. They will sew up the curtain as they did once before. They might even fabricate an ark to reside inside. But the curtain was torn once and for all. fake religion trying to create a prescence that is no longer there. Man made structure which although prophetically intimated can never save one single soul. Even if sacrifices were resumed there would be nothing more than a reminder of sin. Personnaly If what I have been told is correct from a saved Jew. That the Judasim that exists today is nothing like the judaism of Jesus day. It was reinvented after AD 70
So I cant see a resume of actual blood sacrifices!
Response to two comments/questions by Eph.4.11: -
4. what is the house of prayer in Isaiah 56 that the re-gathered nation come to where burnt offerings & sacrifices are accepted on God’s altar?
5. what is the mountain of the house of the Lord in Micah 4:1-2 & Isaiah 2:2-3?
Actually this would be the FOURTH temple, not the one rebuilt during or prior to the great tribulation. If we believe the temple witnessed by Ezekiel is to be built by Messiah for the millenial period, the present area of the temple mount is not sufficient for that structure, and the “mountain of the LORD’s house” has not yet been geographically raised up above all other mountains.
See the blog on the millenium for discussion of millenial issues, which however haven’t touched much on the nature of the sacrifices in the millenial temple, which must be (as from all scriptures quoted) purely memorial in character. The term “al-olam” (forever) in the Old Testament must be understood (answering points of Eph.4.11) from the context. It may mean “for a long and indefinite time” – eg. Eccl.1.4 “The earth abides forever”. The Levitical priesthood and feast days of the Lord are fundamentally shadows only and though observed in the millenium (as memorials) will not be found in the new heavens and new earth.
Indeed Joop in the new heaven and new earth this fourth temple as the third one before it will “vanish into thin air”.
Hello all!! My return will be short lived but I must comment on this! First, right wrong or otherwise the third temple will be rebuilt, to say otherwise is to throw out a good chunk of scripture! Another thing, to say the Jews are not the Jews is ABSURD!! Lawrence, do you subscribe to “WATCH UNTO PRAYER”? My guess would be yes. Hatred towards anyone is still hatred and your writing bleeds hatred of the Jews. How many places in the old or new testament do we read of the redemption of the Jews, “THE REMNANT”? The prophets speak of it countless times, Paul speaks of it! Who comes back to JESUS after the time of the gentiles are fulfilled? Please answer these questions logically and biblically, and not out of predjudice which ignores those scriptures that we dont want to see! Do I subscribe to Benny Hinn and many others, ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Do we need this temple to be made righteous through sacrifice, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Does the bible say there will be a third temple, YES, at least it speaks of the ABOMINATION STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE! You can break that down in your concordance and see that it is talking of something standing in a PLACE THAT IS HOLY! A physical object! In rev. 11 it says there will be a temple and even says the outer court will be trampled by the GENTILES, an obvious distinction from the Jews! I dont understand why you cant see that the temple will be rebuilt? And it has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with the fact that the JEWS (WHO SOME SAY DONT EXIST, WHICH IS LAUGHABLE!)are still waiting for their messiah(WRONGLY I MIGHT ADD)and this in itself will open them up to receive the false messiah(THE ANTICHRIST), I might also add that THE WHOLE WORLD, JEW AND GENTILE WILL FOLLOW THIS SON OF PERDITION!!! I would say that EPH.4:11 has some very good questions that need answered. To all who fall in line with Mr.Luprypa, I would kindly suggest that you go back and read your whole bible and dont pick and choose what you want out of it! The fact that the nation of Israel is alive and well is proof that bible prophecy is being fulfilled! Are they serving GOD and in line with HIS will for them, NO, but kindly direct me to ANY NATION THAT IS!!! It matters not if Mr. Hinn or anyone else is pushing to get the temple rebuilt, GODS WORD SAYS THAT IT WILL BE DONE THEREFORE IT WILL!! I might also add that JOOPs quote of scripture Rev.21:22 has absolutely nothing to do with this topic as that is referring to the new heavens and the new earth! Is it so hard to just take scripture as it is? Why must there always be people who put a twist on it? It boggles the mind! GOD BLESS!!
Vince
Is it so hard to just take scripture as it is.?
…………………….
Well Vince Romans 2:28
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.But a Jew is one inwardly and circumcision is a matter of the heart,by the Spirit, not by the letter.
And again in Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed,FOR NOT ALL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISRAEL BELONG TO ISRAEL, AND NOT ALL ARE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM BECAUSE THEY ARE HIS OFFSPRING.
Vince , The apostle Paul has redefined what it means to be a Jew , and the subsequent citizenship of the true Israel.
I believe the OT prophets were looking past the nation of Israel, which God had already rejected because of their continual sin , and had in view the Israel born of the new Covenant.
Like wise the same applies to the temple, there is only one temple in view here .1 COR 3:16
Do you not know that you are Gods temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?.If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is Holy , and YOU ARE THAT TEMPLE!.
Ok Let’s discuss when Satan is bound and when the 1000 years start.
First of all Satan is Bound at the coming of Christ before or at the first resurrection, definately before the 7th seal. The seventh seal are the vial judgments of God. We are not here for them. We are also not here for the trumpets. They are wrath. Satan is bound and the false prophet and beast are thrown into the lake of fire.
Now just listen.
In Rev 16 all the vials are during the 1000 years and they are on the beast Kingdom, we are in heaven in the New City. (New heaven and earth) Ressurrected.
Not one of these things including Armageddon or Gog-magog happen while we are here.
They are plagues on those who took the Mark.
Another thing, Satan is loosed right before Gog-Magog. Now there is something weird about that because you have 7 years of Burning weapons and 7 months of burying bodies.
(this may be where you see tabernacles kept)
Now just hear me, If the time when they come up against Jerusalem the city is divided in 3 parts and the nations fall, Babylon is judged and hail is the last vial.
The earth burns up.
Then the 2nd resurrection.
My 2cents on where the man of sin sits, in you. His temple.
There are 2 images
The beast-man-mammon-Adam-flesh
Jesus-God-born again-Adam Spirit
The mark of God is the law in your head (fontlets) and Christ at the right hand.(Gold tried in fire)
The Mark of the Beast is Gold in your head and the power of wealth in your right hand.(Buying and selling)
Ray, you still have to deal with all those other scriptures and all those questions. Unfortunately all does not fit neatly into your handfull of scripture. What about rev. 11? What about the abomination STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE? Why would JESUS warn those who were alive at that time to flee when they see this abomination? Was He telling them to flee when they see the abomination in themselves? HOGWASH!! Who was Peter an apostle to? Paul to the gentiles Peter to WHOM? READ ALL OF ROMANS 11, if you can get out of that that the Jews have been done away with you are severely deluded and Paul even warns of this. Yes they may only enter by the SON OF GOD JESUS, but nonetheless they are still JEWS! You have not answered the question as to the time of the gentiles being fulfilled. As a matter of fact you have answered nothing as you have taken several scriptures and made a doctrine out of it at the expense of the Jews, but not to worry you have a lot of company as satan has been trying to destroy the Jews forever, yet has not succeeded. When you can answer each and every question put before you SCRIPTUALLY without throwing out scripture then I might listen to what you have to say. If the Jews are no more why is the whole endtime scenario taking place in ISRAEL? Why not Missouri? Read Daniel 12 and notice who stands up at the end to fight, thats right its Michael the arch angel whose job it is to protect the nation and people of ISRAEL! Like it or not there will be a remnant of JEWS saved in the end who will not bow to the antichrist and will call out to JESUS to save them and they will most certainly be JEWS!! Do you think it coincidence that Hitler would decide to destroy a whole race? Is there a possible reason for this? GOD all through scripture has laid out HIS plans for the JEWS as well as the GENTILES. You cannot just neatly wipe them off the map with 2 scriptures. Yes we all must only be saved by JESUS, no one is argueing against that, but to ignore that the bible CLEARLY points to the JEWS having a place in these last days is rather blind and the fact that Ezekiel 37 has taken place before our very eyes should mean something. Have you noticed world events revolve around this tiny country? Dont you think this is GODS way of showing that HIS WORD is true and it will come to pass, no matter how foolish it looks to man. You are of course free to believe what you want but I will stick with the whole of scripture, not just parts of it that fit my theology. GOD BLESS!!!
Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
Seems pretty plain to me. Perhaps all those Jew despisers ripped this verse out of their bibles?
For the promoters of replacement theology:
Jeremiah 31:35
This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the LORD,
“will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me.”
37 This is what the LORD says:
“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the LORD.
Salvation for Israel will ONLY come through recognition of their messiah, Jesus. The day WILL come when Israel finally recognises Him.
God has NOT given up on Israel. He has NOT divorced them as someone said. (Divorcing Israel and marrying the church?!!!?)
The quote from Jeremiah 31 states God’s relationship to Israel clearly. Is God a liar?
If a literal temple is still to be built prior to the end it will not be a part of God’s plan for Israel. It will be an act taken up by Israel according to their own will.
It will eventually become the temple of antichrist – which makes Christian involvement in the building of that temple more than a little ironic. “Christians” raising money and support for the antichrist’s throne!
ray, if you closely read the scripture you posted you will notice that while not everyone who is a Jew according to the flesh is a real Jew, it does not make one from the nations a Jew!
We are merged into the olive tree of Israel and so will be the current living Jews once they come to faith in Jesus Christ. There will be a third temple if for no other reason that the religious Jews will continue their sacrifice and give the Antichrist unwittingly a platform to play god.
so good to see this place is moving again! I’ve been on everyday, waiting to see action again for the past (it feels like) two and a half weeks!
My understanding:
1st Temple
Destroyed as it was a place in Israel before Christ. God withdrew his presence from it.
2nd Temple
Destroyed as it was a place in Israel before Christ. God withdrew his presence from it.
3rd Temple
Christ Himself, who broke his own flesh, only to resurrect his temple again in three days.
4th Temple
An Believing individual’s body who houses the presence of the Lord within their being, life and actions.
5th Temple
The universal temple of God where each believer is a living stone that makes up the entire worldwide dwelling place of the Lord.
6th Temple
The temple of man built by man, that allows the anti-Christ to reign within it’s perimeters.
7th
The one that John saw in Revelations, first in heaven and then in ascension onto the New Earth.
(yikes! just decided to write this in biblical and historical order, and was surprised to see the results where 6 fell and that I can only re-call 7!)
It will be re-built. The new age anti-christ with the support of the movers and shakers of the New World Order is in the background orchestrating the whole thing.
When he (anti christ) secures the 7 year peace treaty between Israel and ‘the many’ (read Daniel) the Jews will accept him as their messiah. Finally, here is a ‘messiah’ who will save the jews from their enemies. Because Jesus didn’t save Israel from the Romans in His time, they believed that He couldn’t be the Messiah.
After 3 1/2 years, antichrist proclaims himself god – the end is not far off.
Need to appologise for a mistake. Its not jeremiah 2:8 but 3:8. I am for ever getting those two chapters messed up!
I am a new Christian- after 42 years of wondering blindly, so to speak- I am on an earnest quest to understand Gods Word. I have been studying the Bible on my own (my reluctance to plant my feet anywhere within the diverse realm of interpretation of the Word is a complex and personal struggle that I don’t even know how to articulate) I found this site yesterday and spent a good portion of the day reading through the threads- which I wouldn’t have bothered to do if it weren’t for Miriam’s Statement of Faith.
As a new Student of God’s Word, I have serious concerns about being misled by false teaching and false Prophets. Does anyone have some insight into Arnold Murray? And, what about Melissa Scott?
Thank you -
@Gyod
**Rev 21:22 refers to the future, to the New Jerusalem.**
Quite correct!
**You cannot use this against a temple being built now.**
There is no scripture which indicate another literal temple will be, or should be built.
**Also there a numerous scriptures which indicate that Israel will be cleansed, sanctified so that they can bring sacrifices, acceptable to God.**
Only a remnant of the Jews will be saved as Scripture clearly says. So when you say ‘Israel will be cleansed…” I ask you then: what do you mean by ‘Israel’?
Last but not least: Jesus is the final Sacrifice. So in this ‘dispensation’ no sacrifices are needed anymore (neither in future dispensations like the millenium). It’s all written in Hebrews. To make sacrifices again is to deny Jesus final and perfect sacrifice for now and the future.
@James
You are quite right when stating ‘replacement’ theology is often being misunderstood. As Acts tells us: the Church started with the Jews, later the gentiles are added to.
One Body, one Church, consisting of both Jews and gentiles.
It is that simple!
God bless,
Joop
Ray, you must take all scripture. Anyone can quote 1 or 2 scriptures and make an absolute doctrine out of it. Read Rom.11, the whole chapter. If you can read that and come up with the idea that there are no Jews then you are seeing something Im not. They are redeemed in the last days. (NOT AS THEY ARE BUT AFTER THEY REPENT). You have not answered any questions put forth by either myself or Eph.4:11. You have to throw out scripture to come to your conclusions. When JESUS warned of the abomination of desolation, and He said when you see it in the HOLY PLACE flee to the hills, was he telling them to flee from the abomination which is inside them? Makes no sense. In Rev. chapter 11 it speaks of the outer court being trodden down by the gentiles for half the tribulation,(YET ANOTHER PLACE WHERE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEW AND GENTILE IS MADE). The nation of Israel is made up of Jews contrary to popular belief! The extermination of 6 million jews did take place, it is not some ridiculous conspiracy as some would have us believe! If this was a conspiracy to put these false Jews in power then it is being done backwards as the whole world never agrees with them on anything and would happily have them wiped off the map. Something else to understand, satan wants the temple built so at his appointed time he can go in and proclaim himself as god, thus slapping GOD in the face by doing it for the whole world to see in Jerusalem, trying to show GOD that he owns the city and the Jews, but there will be a remnant who will not bow to him, and he will seek to destroy them. For heavens sake, read Daniel 12, Michael the arch angel stands up at the end to fight! He is the guardian of the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. The nation of ISRAEL came back into existance after 1900 years of the dispersal. GOD has always said in HIS word through the prophets that HE would restore HIS people, and if you read all of Rom.11 you will see that Paul backs this up. It is true that all(BOTH JEW AND GENTILE) must come to JESUS for there is no other name by which man can be saved! Ive got another shocker, THERE WILL BE A FOURTH TEMPLE BUILT! Read Ezekiel 40- 48. And it even speaks of sacrifices,Hmm? You people who say there are no Jews throw way to much scripture out the window, and frankly overlook the obvious! Is Israel doing as GOD would have them now? NO! Is any other country on this planet doing what GOD would have them do? NO! All will fall in line with the antichrist and all will be judged accordingly. Yet just as there will be gentiles who will be saved there will be Jews who will be saved. You must take the whole of scripture. The time of the gentiles is about to be fulfilled, and what comes after that? GOD BLESS!!!
Miriam, for some reason I wrote the first comment and I didnt see it show up so I wrote the second one, and covered much of what I wrote in the first one, well when I went to submit it the first showed up so I would request that you dispose of one of them, it matters not which. THANK YOU!
What says the Word?
1 Peter
2:5 You also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
2:9 But you are a chosen nation, the royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar [special, purchased] people; that you should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:
2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but now are the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as aliens and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
2:12 Having your conversation honest among the nations”
2:10 Which in time past were not a people, BUT >> NOW >> ARE >> THE >> PEOPLE >> OF >>GOD.
“but now are the people of God”
Get it?
But what did Peter know, huh.
————–
2. Jewishness 101
There are FOUR groups who call themselves Jews: Ashkenazi (numerically far outnumber the balance); Marranos; Sephardic; and Ethiopian.
Ashkenaz Jews descended from Ashkenaz.
In Genesis
10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz”
They are white, East European (Khazar) and speak Yiddish.
Semmitic Jews (“Jew” means a descendant of Judah so it is not really proper as anyone born in Judea is a Judean) stem from Eber – hence “Hebrew” – who is a descendant of Shem.
Arabs and Iraquis etc are related as Abraham was an Iraqui, and Ishmael was his son.
10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.
10:22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.
10:23 And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. 10:24And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber.”
So let’s not be ignorant on the makeup of present-day “Israel”.
———————
Judeo-Christianity is a misnomer. Christ brought into existence a New World Order – one which will last FOREVER. Unlike the NWO counterfeit which will usher in the antichrist and 7 yrs, and satan chained by merely ONE angel and cast into the abyss for 1000 yrs.
The NEW covenant is not the Old. That’s why it’s called NEW.
Judaism is a grab bag of Babylonian Talmudism and selcted OT texts and 100% rejects the Christ Jesus and mocks Him.
Jerie Quinty….that is your understanding of scripture,
right? Prophecy is very complicated and its very dangerous
To Javanut, Onesimus, and gyod, thank you for the added scriptural input!! I agree with you all! Scripture is very plain and clear on this matter! Only distortions or half truths can be behind some of the responses Ive seen here! GOD BLESS!!!
The NEW covenant is not the Old. That’s why it’s called NEW.
Judaism is a grab bag of Babylonian Talmudism and selcted OT texts and 100% rejects the Christ Jesus and mocks Him.
Comment by Laws | June 25, 2009
——————
The issue is NOT about Judaism. It is about ISRAEL.
Also the NEW covenant replaced the MOSAIC covenant it did not replace the other covenants of the Old Testament such as the covenants made with Abraham and David.
The first promised Abraham & his descendents the land. The second promised David a descendent who would inherit his throne and be King over that land.
THOSE covenants have NOT been replaced.
Miriam – would it seem to be better to begin a new thread on the place of the Jewish nation in God’s future plans? And confine this present thread to discussion for those who do believe there is some kind of third temple, which would be more useful. Since if there is no future for the Jews collectively as a people, there would of course be certainly no importance to a third or a fourth temple should one even exist. Those who view “All Israel shall be saved” in replacement theology terms (pace Joop) could put forward their thinking on that separate thread?
No-one seems to have replied so far to Cindy’s question. As far as I know Arnold Murray has revived the teachings of William Branham who denied the Triune nature of God and declared half of humanity to be “unsavable seed” – descended from Cain.
Melissa Scott admits that in her past she was a pornographic model. Of course this is not to say she could not be redeemed from that, but after that she was married to a “money preacher” Doc Scott. Apart from that I know little about her.
Cindy, our Lord tells us “by their fruits (not miracles, supernatural or natural knowledge) you shall know them” (Matt.7.15-20). Ask Him to lead you to those who desire to “follow after righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart” (2 Tim.2.22). Those who seek shall find!
Peace and grace to you
onesimus said.
God has NOT given up on Israel. He has NOT divorced them as someone said. (Divorcing Israel and marrying the church?!!!?)
Onesimus, that was not a true statement. God did divorce Israel.
Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Now let me show you something about divorce and Israel thru the New Covenant.
Look below what God says about leaving your husband then trying to return to him later after adultry/fornication. Now think of Israel leaving their husband (God) to worship other Gods after he showed her all his works coming out of Egypt. Here God is showing in the law it is an abomination.
Deuteronomy 24
2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Now God divorces Israel and pleads with Judah.
Jer 3
7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;
yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
He only asks her to acknowledge her transgressions and that he is married to her. The law is fixing to be done away with. He is going to do away with the earthly arc of the covenant. They are going to get New Pastors who will bring forth fruit of the kingdom.
13Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that
be done any more.
20Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
Now the New Testament release from the law of divorce by the death of Christ. Israel is able to Return to her God again and be freed from the condemnation of adultery.
Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Oh the riches and mercy of our Lord through Jesus Christ! He has reconciled Israel back to the Lord. He is still calling out to his bride, RETURN UNTO ME, I LOVE THEE!
Only thru the death of Christ could Israel return to her husband.
Only thru the New Covenant
Jerie
Susie,
What understanding are you talking about?
My point is that I think that what is going on during the 1000 years on this planet isn’t good. I think the good scriptures refer to the City above, not below. No where in the NT is there mention of another temple during the 1000 years other than the one above. No where does it say anything about bring sacrifices to that temple either.
The day of the Lord is a thousand years of Judgments/plagues.
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
the seal set on Satan/beast kingdom judgment is the 7th seal/vials
Revelation 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
After Satan is loosed the earth is destroyed.
Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
hail fire earth burned up.
Second resurrection
I know the thinking out there about some special good thing happening on the earth uring the 1000 years, I just don’t happen to be one of them.
Jerie
After posting- I realized I posted on the wrong thread-sorry for the interruption – Thank you for answering though. My mistake aside – my question would be…. (and, obviously, this is from the assumption that Cain’s descendants are un-savable) Why are they un-savable-? Seriously I’m not being a smart- ass- Why are they not savable? I realize that this has nothing to do with my original question- let alone this thread- but why are Cain’s descendants (according to Arnold Murray, or who ever, un-savable?). I know that he (Cain) was the original murderer- but wouldn’t that predispose him to be the first in line for redemption?
I am guilty of sooo… much sin… and, I want to think that I am still redeemable- what if Murray is right- and I am a descendant of Cain- and- believe me, coming from my family, this is a likely possibility-I still need to believe that I can know and embrace Christ. (By the way- I haven’t killed anyone- and I won’t ) I need, so much, to embrace the “pure heart”
Thank You!
I will keep listening & seeking until I find!
Jesus was a Jew. So were Mary and Joseph. So were all 12 disciples. So were all the authors of the New Testament. Paul was a Pharisee.
If you hate the Jews – you hate Jesus. Think about it.
Eph.4;11
What is the significance of the 2000 yrs + gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniels 70 weeks, understanding that the 70th week is 7 yrs of great tribulation?
…………………………..
Can you possibly provide a scriptural passage for this 2000yrs + gap?
The Temple will be re-built. The Rabbis and Spiritual Leaders inside Jerusalem have every thing in place for when the temple is rebuilt on the most contestant piece of real estate in the world.
As Israel has swung to the right with Bibi Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman in power I feel there is greater possibility of the temple being rebuild sooner rather than later. With the expansion of Jewish settlements inside East Jerusalem and recent statements from Bibi Netanyahu we see the Jewish State making moves to secure Jerusalem Israeli Control, and I think there will be a change at some point in there policies with The Temple Mount.
As for sharing the Temple Mount, that would never happen. You can’t even open the door into a Jewish State without the threat of the State being attacked.
At Christ’s first coming the Jews crucfied Christ because He rejected their ‘dominion’ theology. Now we find at the dawn of His return, Christians are once again contending for the ‘dominion’ of the Jews. The Devil hasn’t changed his tactics.
There will be no third temple, since God destroyed it forever to be replaced by the True High Priest entering Heaven to offer His shed blood.
As for ‘replacement theology’, Jesus said the vineyard would be taken from the Jews and given to another nation bearing its fruits. Matt. 21:43 Sounds like replacement to me.
The promises and covenants made to Israel continued to the Jews who believed in Messiah Jesus. God chose Isaac over Ishamael, Jacob over Esau, the two tribes over the ten tribes, and the believers in Jesus over those who rejected Him. “Not all of Israel are Israel.” Paul wrote that gentiles who believed were now members of “the commonwealth of Israel”.
The true descendents of Abraham are those who believe in Jesus. ALL promises are theirs. Our temple is in Heaven. Here we have no lasting city. Jerusalem above is our mother. Our High Priest is above interceding for sinners. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world.
Failing to apply proper hermeneutics leads to erroneous conclusions.
Btw, the Bishop of Ethiopia will make an announcement at 8am New York time TODAY that Ethiopia has the Ark of the Covenant and will publicly reveal it.
Vince
Iam not taking one or two scriptures and making a doctrine out of it.If the bible contradicts itself[ it doesn't] , then it can no longer be the word of God.One must study the word carefully and harmonise all scripture, with the clearer texts shedding light on the not so clear texts.
If Paul states that ” not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel ,and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but through Isaac shall your offspring be named. This means that it is NOT the children of the FLESH who are the children of God , but the the children of the PROMISE are counted as OFFSPRING”
would this not indicate that Israel is indicative as being children of the promise , that is , the covenant.
With this principle being established, it would only be logical to interpret OT prophecies regarding Israel{ unless they refer specifically to national Israel} as refering to “covenant Israel”.
In this way , there is a synthesis of all scripture and no contradictions.
The ” mystery ” of Israel’s salvation , must therefore be interpreted in light of Romans 9.
I do observe a common and correct understanding here, and that is all must come to God through Christ, there is no other way.The door is open for all who seek to be saved and this will include many Jews .
As for rebuilding a temple , as stated in my first post , i do not see this as likely, on a logistical plane , there would be nothing less than a full scale war should any attempt be made to either build the temple along side the Dome of the Rock , or the unthinkable, demolish the Mosque to make way for the temple!
Again i say , Christ is the Temple and because his Spirit dwells in us , we also are a part of that Temple, and prophecies that refer to the temple [ unless they refer to the physical temple] must refer to the spirtual temple.
Abomination of Desolation
In Ezekiel 8:6
And he said to me, Son of man , do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel are committing here,TO DRIVE ME FAR FROM MY SANCTUARY.
The abomination of desolation are things that are done in the sanctuary [church] that cause desolation of the Spirit.
There is no need to look for this in any future setting , its happening right under our nose!.This website is replete with examples of such abominations, and its very likely that they are occurring in our own churches. This is indeed prophecy that we see happening now.
I trust this answers some of your questions.
Javanaut
I personally do not hate Jews and from what i’ve read elsewhere on this thread , i don’t believe anyone else does either.
John 3:3
Jesus answered him,Truly,truly I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Hi Cindy
I haven’t heard of Arnold Murray, but if this is what he is teaching , i would give him a wide berth.To answer your other question, if you are truly sorry for your sin and seek Jesus forgiveness ,then the good news is that you are saved!.If you read your bible and pray for understanding , God will reveal Himself to you .He is a just and loving God.I will pray for you as go through this time and im sure many others will pray for you also. Blessings.
Reply to Cindy: -
Actually the line of Cain has disappeared. All of us on the planet are descended now from Noah who was of the line of Seth. It is still of course possible that through intermarriage between Seth and Cain’s descendants we have some genes from Cain – but this is in any case totally irrelevant to the issue of salvation. Christ died for all men (Rom.5.6-8) and His life is available to all who are descended from Adam (Rom.5.18) – 1 Tim.2.1-5, .Titus2.11. THe apostle Paul declared himself “chief of sinners” and states that Christ chose to save him for the specific purpose that ALL would have hope for salvation – since if he was the worst, there is indeed hope for all (1. Tim. 1.12-17).
Even where Cain is concerned it is clear God gave him opportunity to confess and find forgiveness (Gen.4.6-9) as he does for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3.8-21). Even though they attempted to cover themselves with fig-leaves of their own making God graciously clothes them with skins. Prov.28.13. See our Lord’s parable on the 4 kinds of soil. THe one which produces fruit is that where there is an “honest and good heart”. Good because honest. There is no limit to what God can do with any of us if we come to Him openly without excuse. This is the “eu-angelion” – the true good news!
Grace and peace to you.
PS – BB – please give us more on this announcement on the ark when you have info.
Indeed, improper hermeneutics leads to erroneous conclusions. In this case, many do not divide the Word properly. (pun intended.) If we cannot see in the Word that the Jews and Christians have different destinies, we will forever miss the point.
We have to see there is a spiritual seed of Abraham, (Christians in their new bodies,) and a physical seed of Abraham, (Jews.) See that in the millennium, the Christians will inhabit New Jerusalem, the 1,500 mile cube that comes down from Heaven. But the Jews that survive the Tribulation, now believers in Jesus, will live on in human bodies thru the millennium. (A physical 1,500 mile cube sticking out of the earth would throw our planet wobbly.)
Likely, the New Jerusalem will be invisible to humans. But the physical rebuilt Temple will still be available for the Jews, and the rest of the survivors of the Tribulation who will come to pay respect to Jesus’ sacrifice. They will sacrifice lambs there, but this will be looking back to Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, unlike the previously sacrificing looking forward to it.
Cutting the view to ONLY the Christians going on in history defies the words about the 144,000 virgin Jews who spread the Gospel during the Tribulation, and also God’s promise that ALL Israel will be saved. This is improperly dividing the Word of God. Like it or not, God will keep His promise to NEVER forget His chosen ones, the Jews. The “replacement theory” is a doctrine of demons. DavWms
Read the whole of Jeremiah chapter 3. God divorce Israel but as you read the rest of the chapter God still pleads with Israel. But as it has been stated israel could not return according to the LAW. Jeremiah is the Book that speaks about a new covenant. So God is laying the framework that he will embrace her again but under another covenant. The issue is never Jew verses gentile.. but faith in Christ. The Israel that God sees is now fulfilled in the Church. Spiritual Israel is a fact. The israel that will never cease from eternity to eternity is the church. That is why the new Jerusalem has gates with the names of the twelve tribes enscribed upon them, Rev 21:12.
Jeremiah in Chapter 3:14 says ” Turn o Backslidden children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: I will take one of a city and two of a family (remnant) and I will bring you unto ZION. I will give you pastors according to my heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. It shall come to pass, when ye will be increased in the land in those days. saith the Lord. They will say no more. The ark of the covenant of the Lord; neither shall it come to mind. Naither shall they remember it. Neither shall they visit it…..At the time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord and all the nations shall be gathered unto it.” (do read on) The prophecy sees the eventual assembling of Judah and Israel together as faithful children. I see this prophecy Starting here JEREMIAH 3 and eventually being fulfilled during the millenium and into eternity.
For why would the saviour establish his throne in JERUSALEM? The millenium is not for the church sake but the physical Jews who will be born during this period. They will have the opportunity to know their messiah.
1 Peter 2:5- see Ex 19:6 Gods plan from the begining “Ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests..” God never changed his mind. God has always desired a people who were all to be his holy priests.
1 Pater 2:9 see Deut7:6. 26:18-19 ” For thou art a holy people unto the Lord thy God. The Lord has chosen you . to be a special people unto himself above all people that are upon the face of the earth” 26:18 “The Lord has chosen thee this day to be his peculiar people..”
Do we not see something here. What a blessing for God to give this people. To be a peculiar people ( word peculiar means possession). Yet when we read 1 Peter the very same thing is said of the church. We too are to be a peculiar people. The word peculiar in 1 Peter 9 also means purchased posession. We too are to be a kindom of priests.
The church therefore is the fulfillment of what was planned from the begining. There are countless verses in the Old that find their fulfillment in the new.
There is running through The Old and New Testaments a common theme. 1 Peter 2:10 “In times past were not a people, but are now the people of God…”
If the Jews continued to be Gods people then this verse would exclude them from the New covenant. But they were taken out, not to leave them out but to bring them in.
Hosea children Chapter 1: Call his name Loammi. For you are not my people and I will not be your God” verse 10 “In the place were it was said unto them, ye are not my people there it shall be said unto them. Ye are the sons of the living God”
Who was Hosea speaking to? Jews (gospel came to them first, but also to us gentiles. Jews cease to be Gods people. Broken off from VINE. Fulfillment: remnant is brought back. But the total fulfillment is found in 1 Peter 2 Jew and gentile together. see also Romans 9:24-29
There is something beautiful here were God has restored to himself a people of faith, Not of natural descent which excludes other races but of (JOHN 3:16) Whosoever basis.
The promises of God have always been thru Isaac, not thru the ancestrial line of Isaac, but of the promises by faith. It’s always been by faith.
By faith Abraham knew though he was old as dirt, God was able to perform what he said and give him a child. By faith Abraham knew God could raise Isaac from the dead.
All the promises are by faith, not by bloodline. From the garden promise of a seed thru Eve to the Birth, death and resurrection of that seed.
It’s always been by Gods seed Jesus Christ.
God even preared a sacrifice in place of Isaac.
That all who should believe on him (the substitute sacrifice) might pass from death to everlasting life.
Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
The covenant of Moses has been “changed” to the New covenant of Christ.
All promises are to the spiritual seed Israel (faith), all old covenants are changed to the new covenant.
So all promises are to us.
All covenents are change to the new.
All is to the believer in Christ, not the old covenant.
Like I said before no where is there mention of a third earthly temple in the New testament, or any other teachings of animal sacrifices being resumed in Jerusalem.
I think the word pretty much says it won’t be rebuilt as has been shown on this thread already.
If National Israel didn’t receive the promises by faith, then they are not part of the promise or covenants.
Jerie
Ray, you miss the point of what the scripture is saying. When JESUS warns to flee because of the ABOMINATION he is litterally telling them to flee, not from some spiritual deception going on in the church. If it is how you say, which frankly I see as a severe stretch, then when do we decide to flee, and where, does JESUS not give specific instructions on where to go, this cannot be for the world wide church. Remember also that we cannot limit GODS word because it LOOKS TO US like rebuilding the temple will be impossible, impossibility has never played a part in what GOD does! Rev. 11 clearly points to the temple and the courtyard, it is clear. As far as hating the JEWS is concerned I dont see it in your writing but LAWRENCE, or LAWS, has written boatloads which show his hatred for the JEWS! When a person denies their existance it is pretty plain that there are issues there. His predjudice also throws out much scripture and clings to the scripture which read by itself allows him to believe his lies. I think of all Ive read on this thread I would say Onesimus is closest to biblical truth. There is far to much scripture in the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS which show JEW and GENTILE in these last day scenarios. To say that there is no longer JEWS but only those who belong to the church which are spiritual JEWS is to only read part of scripture and not look at the big picture of scripture. Once again WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE TIME OF THE GENTILES ARE FULFILLED? There is a reason that statement is made and it is not to think the JEWS have been done away with it is to show that they do have a time, and it is coming soon, that they will be grafted back in. THEY HAVE TO BE HERE TO BE GRAFTED BACK IN, DONT THEY?! Scripture is plain, THERE IS JEW AND THERE IS GENTILE, AND ALL MUST BE SAVED THROUGH JESUS! The nation of Israel is not a figment of imagination, and not a conspiritorial plot to take over the world, as I said before if that is the case it is being done the wrong way, as the whole world HATES THE NATION OF ISRAEL!!! This in itself should be proof positive that GOD has a plan for them. I need not go over again everything I have said, I think it has been covered already. RESPECTFULLY, I do not see scripture backing up your thinking Ray. GOD BLESS!!
Comment by David L Williams: “Cutting the view to ONLY the Christians going on in history defies the words about the 144,000 virgin Jews who spread the Gospel during the Tribulation, and also God’s promise that ALL Israel will be saved. This is improperly dividing the Word of God. Like it or not, God will keep His promise to NEVER forget His chosen ones, the Jews. The “replacement theory” is a doctrine of demons.” THIS IS ALSO A MAIN POINT THAT SLIPPED PAST ME! How on earth do you throw this out?! THANKS DAVID!!GOD BLESS!!
@David L. Williams
You stated:
**The “replacement theory” is a doctrine of demons.**
Now that’s too easy. I mean, what do you mean by ‘replacement theory’? If somebody here on this thread claims that the Bible teaches that no Jews can come to Christ anymore, now that IS a doctrine of demons. But who says so here?
Let’s find some common ground, shall we? Most important: God loves both gentiles and Jews, and God wants everybody to be saved. And Jesus died for both the Jews and the gentiles. Who would disagree?
Getting back to the topic: there will be no [third] temple needed for both Jews and gentiles to make sacrifices etc. Jesus paid the ultimate price, making Himself the perfect Sacrifice, so making still sacrifices would, I believe, deny Jesus atonement for us.
God bless,
Joop
comment :The “replacement theory” is a doctrine of demons. DavWms
be carefull what you call “doctrines of demons”.
IF WE AGREE no REPLACEMENT AND AS SUCH NOTHING GOT REPLACED THEN WE MUST ACCEPT THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS
If there is no replacement. Then Jesus did not replace animal sacrifices. This means his death was in vain. That means as he did not replace anything, there is no intercession in heaven by Jesus for sinners. His blood was shed in vain. Nothing was attained
We all need to go out and sacrifice a lamb ot two. Whoops sorry No temple. Jews have no present temple, so no offering can be made for sin and us gentiles are out.
No replacement means NO New Testament. NO new covenant means NO new Testament writings. This also means every writer in the New Testament is a false teacher. Jesus himself gave evidence to a new and better way. So NO replacemnt means Jesus sacrifice was hopless and vain. NO better way. Every writer in the Old Testament that prophecied to a new covenant must also be false. Sorry nothing got replaced means your bible will fit nicely in some bin.
Then there is all the people who fell away to this New movement called Christianity. That means every Jewish and gentile believer from the first century until today are lost. So you can see how once you reject replacement your whole salvation takes a tumble. So please look again at proper biblical teaching. If the Jew and Christians have different destinies then those who typicaly reject replacement are actually saying that the Jews are dammned. NO hope for them. There is NO plan B for either. Unsaved Jew and the unsaved gentile will have their destiny in hell.
SO PLEASE DO NOT REJECT YOUR SALVATION. Jews desperetly need to hear the gospel
There were numerous temples – search Psalms. 1.David wrote of it – tho the fancy one (2) was built later. Then that one was totalled, and a simple one (3) was erected; Herod’s (4) was demolished by God as obsolete due to His own completed work. All the sacrifices offered after the cross were abomination to God.
We have to be careful and use NT clarification as to what is the “temple”. It is NOT the OT, which was a shadow.
In 1 Cor.
3:16 Know ye not that YOU are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple YOU are.”
Daniel wrote in 2:43 “And whereas you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men.”
This is speaking of the very end, where there will be hybrids, just as before and after the flood – and Jesus stated that the end times will again have hybrids walking amongst men “as in the days of Noah, and Lot.”
Get out of your conditioned USA-churched mindset and the Bible makes perfect sense. No pre-trib rapture, but massacre of the saints by the beast is imminent.
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BB
“The true descendents of Abraham are those who believe in Jesus. ALL promises are theirs. Our temple is in Heaven. Here we have no lasting city. Jerusalem above is our mother. Our High Priest is above interceding for sinners. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world.
Failing to apply proper hermeneutics leads to erroneous conclusions.”
Well put.
java-nut
1. “Jesus was a Jew.”
2. “So were Mary and Joseph.”
3. So were all the authors of the New Testament.”
1. Jesus was not actually a “Jew”. He was a New Man – He pre-existed. He made Adam. He left heaven and became a fetus, and a child – but He was still the Creator.
2. Mary was His incubator, Joe was a STEP-dad. So what?
3. That is a lie. Be careful of doing that. Luke wrote 2 of the largest NT books.
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friend of Mooslims said:
“Actually the line of Cain has disappeared.”
lol
Nope. Ham married one. Hence, Nimrod was extremely evil.
Genesis
9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness
9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
What did Ham do? ….. bad translation but why was Canaan cursed?
Figure it out.
There’s a very interesting question the disciples ask of their Messiah which is in Acts 1 v. 6 “Lord, are you at this time going to restore self-rule to Israel?” Christ’s reply gives us much food for thought…. bless you all in the amazing Name of Yeshua HaMashiah! =-) xxx
Vince
I had also wanted to bring to your attention the passage in Luke 16: 19 The Rich Man and Lazarus.
This is a very clear illustration of Gods dealing with the Nation of Israel. I will leave you to read the text, but i wanted to highlight verse 29
But Abraham said,They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.30 And he said ,No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.31He said to him, if they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.
God Bless
Just a quick word of caution to all those fond of attributing doctrines they don’t agree with as being ” doctrines of demons”, if you are wrong , you are calling the Almighty God a d—–. im not even game to write it! Be careful.
Reply to Comment by ray | June 26, 2009
What is the significance of the 2000 yrs + gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniels 70 weeks, understanding that the 70th week is 7 yrs of great tribulation?
…………………………..
Can you possibly provide a scriptural passage for this 2000yrs + gap?
Comment by ray | June 26, 2009
Hi Ray
I will get back with a post next week.
Eph4:11
BB
Matt 21:43 is not replacement theology. VS45 says He was directing his parable towards the rulers of the kingdom at that time. The whole vineyard parable relates how Israels leaders(husbandmen) of old killed the prophets(servants) sent by GOD. Could we also say Jesus discerned their desire to kill Him too when the parable talks about the husbandmen killing the son of the vineyard owner?
In Daniel 4:31 GOD told Nebuchadressar that the kingdom was taken from him 32 and gives it to who ever He wants.
Jesus Christ to direct aim at the wayward leadership of Israel not the Jewish people in tthis parable
The third temple issue is pretty neat to look at.
I ran across an article in the J-Post a few days ago and a couiple of readers commented about a website called “Gods Holy Mountain .org” The comments were talking about how a prophet was required to discern the time and place to rebuild the temple. I went to the website and read an article that discussed how the rabbis believe a prophet will come and show them the time and place to rebuild the temple.
But get this, the article goes on to explain how they determine the authenticity of the prophet. They state that the sages will determine if the prophet is real.
This got me to thinking. Could this be how the false prophet appears? By a socalled group of people deciding who a prophet of GOD is? They obviously are defying GODs law 101 on how to tell a true prophet in the OT. Yet many Jewish people are like Catholics they let some one else read the scripture and tell them what it says. Or have they overcome these obstacles of testing a prophet because the NT says how the many lying signs and wonders are done within sight of the beast.
Could lying signs and wonders be used to authenticate a false prophet? Therby leading many astray? Rev 13:13 make fire come down from heaven in sigth of men. Sounds like Elijah and the barbecue on Mt. Carmel except the devil is trying to decieve with these signs.
The way i see it is that the third temple will be rebuilt, because Jesus was never accepted as Messiah, and they are still awaiting their Messiah. See the activity and also the formal request to rebuilt to George W Bush in January 2008 on the temple institute website. The most likely scenario would be that the Antichrist- unknown up till then- will grant the Jews permission to rebuilt and this will be accomplished in record time… months probably.. and then he will announce himself to be Messiah and will sit in the temple proclaiming himself to be God as per 2 Thes. 2. Although the Jews are stating that they have the Ark, i still wonder if they actually do, and if not, if they are hoping God will give it back to them at the appointed time, just a thought.. blessings
Has anyone considered the New Jerusalem being in a triangular form?
Two quick points to ponder:
At the core of the fulfillment of the New Covenant is a redeemed, physical Israel – Rom. 9, 10, & 11. Israel is not part of the commonwealth of the Church, but rather, it is the exact opposite; the Gentiles now having access due to the “middle wall of partition being broken down through the blood of Christ,” are part of the “commonwealth of Israel” and not the other way around – Eph. 2:12.
Secondly, though it is commonly held through an assumption, especially by dispensationalists, that the 144,000 Jews will be evanglizing the world during the Tribulation, nowhere in Scripture can that be found.
Yes, James. Unfortunately, many believe the “replacement theory” that completely eliminates Israel from God’s future plans. That would make God a liar, for He said ALL Israel would be saved. It will take the 70th week of Daniel, the tribulation period for that to come about, and there will be relatively few survivors. The 144,000 virgin Jew evangelists, 12,000 from each tribe tells us this is about Jews, not gentiles.
So we have Abraham’s descendants. The Christians and OT saints make up the Spiritual descendants. But there will also be physical descendants, as well. Those will be the ones who get saved during the Tribulation, who also go into the millennium in human bodies. They will live long lives, as did those in Genesis. All the world’s inhabitants will be required to visit Jerusalem, the center of the world where Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. DavWms
I have an apology to make here. I mentioned above that there will be sacrificing of lambs during the millennium, a “looking back” at Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. I have spent hours trying to find those verses without success. Again, I apologize. DavWms
Oops, I found at least part of what I was looking for above. Zech 14 tells us about the Tribulation and following events, which would be the millennium. Verses 20 and 21 get specific about ongoing sacrifices, which would be into the millennium. The other part, that it is looking back at Jesus’ sacrifice is obvious. DavWms
The “replacement theory” is a doctrine of demons.” David L. Williams | June 26, 2009
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What did Jesus preach?
21:42 Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, [the Torah/Old Testament] The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” Matthew.
You are calling Jesus – who stated in that whole chapter – possessed of demons, which is the same as saying the Holy Spirit within Him is demonic.
There is NO FORGIVENESS FOR THE BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
“And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” v.44.
See you …. “powder”.
Among many corresponding here there exists a “certainty” of
conviction and interpretation that in itself is deserving of comment.
It is clear from Jer30:24,Dan12:4 we are to anticipate greater clarity in our understanding of some truth the nearer we get to its application in life. That being said it behoves us all to exercise a degree of humility when putting forward our understanding. Now we see but “in part”.
Strong debate is one thing, but an over-confidence in our ability to “know” is folly and at times it smacks of a prideful heart.
It is clear that a determined effort will be made to build the temple (of which God disapproves) again. Led by unbelieving Jews,(temple institute of Jerusalem), the project will in all liklihood succeed,re-introducing priests and sacrifices with it. Dan9:27,Rev11:1/2.
A study of Ezekiel,Jeremiah and Isaiah suggests strongly this will be in place for the millenium, so giving opportunity to the Antichrist to lead millions into deception. This man of “peace” will accomodate this endeavour before turning one final time upon Israel Dan12:11.
A fourth temple,the Millenial Temple Is2:2,located on a high mountain,(Ez45:1/8) which cannot therby be in he city of Jerusalem,from where Jesus will reign will also emerge.
On the theme of Israel there are some absolutes.
Adherants to the Replacement theology are just plain wrong. How So? They forget that under Deut 28, Israel got both blessings and curses. If we the church are the “new Israel”
we get both! Question: How then can we live under he Old Covenant and the New Covenant at the same time? The former the CONDITIONAL covenant under Moses,the latter an UNCONDITIONAL covenant of Grace.
It is clear from scripture that the words Israel and Church are not interchangeable. Mt2:20,8:10,15:24,Acts8:3.11:26,15:4, etc,etc.
Gen12:1/3 declares God entered into a blood(uncondiional) covenant with Israel. This has never been revoked.
Rom11:1 declares He is ever committed to His people. An endorsement of Ez36.
Jer31:36 declares sun,moon and stars will cease BEFORE Israel ceases to be a “nation before me”.
These verses alone debunk Replacement Theology which is as David Williams rightly described a “doctrine of demons”.
The bible teaches God will return the Jews to their land…
Before the Tribulation,see Is11/12 ,Ex20:33/44,Zeph2:1/3.
Passing through the Fire,seeDeut4:30,Jer30:5/9,Dan12:1, after which God will fulfil His Word to a converted national
Israel.
A careful reading of Pauls letter to the Romans makes very clear that Israel REMAINS God’s CHOSEN PEOPLE.
Particular attention should be paid to Rom9:3/5 which clearly cannot be referring to Gentiles or the church.
Rom11:2/4. They (Israel) are NOT cast away.
Indeed it is we,the redeemed gentile believers,who are to be “grafted in”. Rom11:17/18. Unbelieving Jews were “broken off” and we believing gentiles became partakers with those who believe.
The olive tree is NOT the church and the gentile believers are NOT the natural branches or the root. They are grafted INTO the Covenant to Israel. Gal3:7/9,Rom4:16/17.
Thus God made the church…an assembly of Jew & Gentile.
Rom11:17/21. DO NOT BOAST says Paul. Remember it is the Olive Tree that supports us! Both types of branches partake of ONE TREE. Only ONE Israel…not one OLD & one NEW.
Rom11:26. Israel fully restored…by the Deliverer of Zion…to where the Jews will return.
There is and has always been a remnant believing Israel. We can never fully understand God’s plans & purposes this side of heaven. Rom11:33/35.
But this we know the Restoration of Israel is a scriptural certainty.
BB said:
“Jesus said the vineyard would be taken from the Jews and given to another nation bearing its fruits. Matt. 21:43 Sounds like replacement to me.”
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I’m sure it would sound like replacement if what you have said was actually true. And it would also mean that God lied in the prophecy from Jeremiah that I quoted earlier.
But what does Matt 21 literally say?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about THEM. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
The chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables; they knew he was talking about THEM, the religious leaders of the day. This is NOT referring to Israel as a whole because we read that the people held that Jesus was a prophet and that people who recognised Him as a prophet at that time WERE JEWS.
So Jesus was NOT saying that Israel would be replaced by another people.
Some observations about the subject:
1 — The New Testament is very clear that Christ’s atoning death on the Cross forever wipes out the need for yearly sacrifices.
2 — The New Testament is very clear that since the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus ALL salvation comes only through HIM.
3 — However! the Scripture reveals a pattern that God often allows men to do their best to achieve heaven; Whether that be the Tower of Babel, pharisaical mandates, etc. He does this to demonstrate the futility of such efforts, and to bring men to the realization that we all need a Savior.
4 — The building of a third temple could very well be the Lord’s way of allowing Israel to do whatever is right in their own eyes — as they have (and we all have, for that matter) for thousands of years.
5 — The Scripture is also very clear that Israel (the geography and the ethnic people) has a place in end time events.
So putting all those things together, I see the building of a third temple as another component bringing the focus of world upon Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with politics and religion. Somehow finances will be involved as well.
Just because a third temple could be built and levitical sacrifices reinstated does not mean that God has a two-party system going. It simply means that the stage is being set for the fulfillment of biblical prophecy.
Yahweh is the most amazing orchestrator of the world stage for the glory of His Name!
Onesimus said: “The chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables; they knew he was talking about THEM, the religious leaders of the day. This is NOT referring to Israel as a whole because we read that the people held that Jesus was a prophet and that people who recognised Him as a prophet at that time WERE JEWS. So Jesus was NOT saying that Israel would be replaced by another people.”
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Exactly my friend. God chose Israelites who believed in Him to continue on as true Israel! God chose Isaac over Ishmael (a son of Abraham), Jacob over Esau, and believers in Jesus over those who rejected Him. This is the olive tree, the remnant Paul talks about in Romans 9:6 and 11:16ff. Gentiles were grafted into those Jews who believed.
Right on Onesimus.
BB & others can’t comprehend the pattern of God’s dealings with Israel,His Covenant Nation.
Throughout their history God has always held them to account and as a result the unfaithful,unbelieving Jews were denied their inheritance. Hence the death of a generation in the wilderness,the win some/lose some experiences in Canaan and ultimately the inclusion of gentiles in God’s Covenant plan. Yet, despite the guilty being disqualified, THERE ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE A BELIEVING REMNANT who remain heirs to the Covenant.
This is yet another example of cherry-picking scripture to re-inforce a false understanding when the whole rhythm and
harmony of scripture is shouting the opposite.
God is not a man that He should lie!
Those who often quote repalcement as the rejection of the Jews are in fact quoting John Hagee on this subject. Hagee denies that Jesus ever came as the messiah. Which scripture would declare that he is of the anti Christ spirit. 1 John 4:1-3. Much of the confusion today stems from his teachings on this subject. which is mere humanism mixed with rat poison.
The verse in Romans that says “all Israel will be saved” has always been a difficult one for theologians to interpet. Clearly we know that not all physicaL JewS will be saved. Judus is a clear example. Can A Jew that has rejected Jesus gain salvation? The Bible has always predicted that a remnant will be saved, just as a remnant of the gentiles will be saved. We cant say how many! Romans 9: 27 “Isiah also cied concerning Israel. “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED” So “all” cannot mean all physical Jews. It must have another significant meaning.
Dut 10:16 “Circumcise therefore the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiffnecked”
Romans 2:28-29″ For he is not a Jew, which is outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart. In the spirit and not in the letter (law). Whose praise is not of men but of God”
Again we see both in the Old and in the new concerning true circumcision. The question may well be? NOW how does God define what a Jew is? So when Paul says ALL Israel will be saved. Too whom is he thinking about, the physical or spiritual israel? If he is thinking on the spiritual Israel then God sees all that was declared before as finding fulfillment in Christ and in the New.
Again John Hagee would say that it is heretical to believe that all the blessing which God gave to israel now flow into the church. BUT what is taught in the new came out of the old Testament. Take the Old out of the New and there is NO New Testament.
Much of the teaching laid down by Jesus and Paul were all drawn out from Old Testament scriptures.. No one would doubt the physical Israel as a nation has a part to play in prophecy. Many many unsaved Jews will come to be saved during the millenium. But they will do so under salvation obtained by Jesus Paul declares in Gal 3:26 “Ye are all Children of God by FAITH in Christ Jesus….There is neither Jew or Gentile…For ye are all one in Christ Jesus”
But of the physical Nation of Israel God also has this to say.Gal4: 21-31 (Please read) Where physical Israel is compared to the church. There are two covenants, One which is now and her children are in bondage, the other free. The Jerusalem which is in middle east and the Jerusalem above. Finaly Paul says “Cast out the bondswoman (Jerusalem) and her son.” “For the son (physical unbelieving Israel)of the bondswoman will not be be heir with the freewoman”
There can not be a dual covenant salvation, one for the Jews and another for the Gentiles. The church is not for the gentiles only. Which is the impression I get from Hagee teaching on this matter. The church is for both. It always has been. Ruth the moabitess as an example. What do you think Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham were?
This would also make it clear that the church is not part of a commonwealth of Israel as someone has suggested. Philipians 2 15-22 clearly describes were both saved Jew and saved gentile are. Verse 19 Therefore ye are no more starngers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God..” Commonwealth is not mentioned, but we are connected to all who are mentioned in Hebrews 11. From the first accepted sacrifice of Abel to the last believer, whoever he may be Jew or gentile. That is the Church of Gods redeemed. Bought, purchases, restored to a new Jerusalem and a city without a temple.
The touble with John Hagee is the emphesis that is given to Israel. To such an extent it be said that Israel is being lifted up and emulated above the church and Christ. That unbelieving Israel is personified in a way it does not deserve? That Christians must support Israel in whatever way she demands or face Gods curse. Yet the blessing of God does not lie with the natural israel see
Gal 3:14 “Blessings of Abraham might come on the gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might recieve the promise of the spirit through faith” America will not be cursed because of its support of Israel but because it has rejected Jesus.
Listen to Hagee and you will believe that the CHURCH is nothing more than a second rate gentile invention. Created for gentiles only. Israel being is in fact the true bride of Christ. This is deadly wrong. For a man who says he supports Israel I get the impression he thinks the Church is not good enough for her. Thus leaving her out of the one establishment (CHRIST)which can save.
BB are we to take it that you have now changed your stance?
In your earlier post you endorsed Replacement Theology now you appear to reject it? Or could it be you feel persuaded to a third option,i.e. a kind of replacement theology which rejects Israel but includes Messianic Jews with Gentile believers as the new Israel?
You do appear to be confused about this so how about simple clarification. Do you or do you not believe in Replacement Theology? If so how do you define it?
Richard: I’m going to argue with you or others who can’t understand what Jesus and the apostles had to say to the nation of Israel. They had 490 years to get it right and receive the Messiah. They didn’t and the nation was destroyed. It will not be restored. The Jews in Israel now are mostly secular agnostics, and liberal in obedience to God. The covenant God made with Israel was CONDITIONAL on obedience and faithfulness. Only those Jews who were faithful and obedient to the command to repent and receive jesus inherited the promises of the fathers.
Soon, God will show that the He is no respector of persons, but only honors faith in Christ. Separating Jews from Gentiles is doing exactly the oppostite of what Jesus did on the cross:
Christ has removed the partition….forever! He has made us both one and here you all want to separate what God has joined together. You ought to repent and tell Him you’re sorry for believing this false teaching.
The only temple that God is interested building is that temple built on the prophets and apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone. It alone is the habitation of the Living God on earth.
Jesus was clear: Jerusalem will be trampled by gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled…or finished, Luke 21. Let me know when they get the mosque off the temple mount and the Muslims out of Jerusalem.
BB
You declare to be a watchman and You say that You are keeping an eye on the enemy!
I have noticed Your true colours long time ago!
Anyone who rejoices in the fact that a person was murdered,is not in touch with the Father’s heart!
Didn’t God say:”Thou shall not kill?”
Shame on You for believing that God has replaced Israel!
Having visions and dreams,doesn’t make that person a lover of God!
A gift doesn’t equal intimacy with God!
If You were in touch with God’s heart would wouldn’t say that God has replaced Israel,my people and His people!
Romans 11:17
“And if some of the branches be broken off,and thou being a wild olive tree,weret graffed in among them,and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree
Roams 11:18
“Boast not against the branches.But if thou boast,thou bearest not the root but the root thee.”
Romans 11:19
“Thou will say then,the branches were broken off,that I might be graffed in.”
Romans 11:20
“Well,because of unbelief they were broken off and thou standest by faith.Be not highminded, but fear:”
Roman 11:21
“For if God spared not the natural branches,take heed lest he also not spare thee”
Romans 11:22
“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,severity;but toward thee,goodness,if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall be also cut off”
Romans 11:23
“And they also,if they abide not still in unbelief,shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again’
Romans 11:24
“For if thou weret cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,and weret graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:how much more shall these,which be the natural branches,be graffed into their own olive tree?”
I have noticed how some of these people who declare to ne watchman seem to rejoice when they have a revelation about the doom and gloom!
A while ago when Sylvia wrote about the forgotten umbrella and a new thread was opened,I even suggested that peole would tell their ’stories” about what has done for them but these so called watchamn didn’t show any excitement about giving God praise!
Let me tell You what I do when the Lord show me things to come:if it is an earthquake,I pray that the people in that area will come to repentance before that event.
I pray that those who have not fulfilled God’s plan for their lives,will be away when that event takes place!
When I saw the Swiss airplane in trouble few years ago,I didn’t dance on my bed,I just asked the Lord to help them!
When the Lord told me that a mass murder was going to take place,I interceded with tears.
Oops!I mentioned the word that offend many of these watchman: I said:” I interceded”.
If that offends You,You should see the many pages I have with the names of people in different languages,cities and natioms that the Lord had given me since 2006 for me to pray for them!
About the first resurrection,where does it say in the Bible that it’s only for those who were decapitated?-Isn’t it for the righteouss?
In reply to justanovice (post 63)
Scripture tells us the base dimensions and height only, so it is possible that the New Jerusalem is a pyramid and not a cube. When I read that observation (by Pawson) early in my journey through the Bible I realised how our thought processes make assumptions without us even noticing. There is a lesson in that for us all – particularly for those making their way out of false teaching. It is no surprise that the current crop of deceived ones and deceivers see the mind as something to be ashamed of.
BB. I think the answer to my question which you chose not to answer is that you ARE thoroughly confused or worse still thoroughly deceived.
On this evidence I agree with My Beloved….your claim to be a Watchman is lamentable.
Who spoke of separation? Go back and read my first post properly then answer the question when/how did God REVOKE His Covenant with Israel? You may think you “know” differently but the N.T. declares otherwise. This is the error of “cherry-picking” verses to support a mind made up.
Justavoice, the base of the new Jerusalem must be square for the length and width to be the same. But it could be a cube or a pyramid.
Lawrence, you are saying that an no one else. Think of Nebuchadnezzar. His kingdom got taken away and after he spent his time with the beasts, his kingdom was restored unto him. The verse you quote does not say forever.
You can see the hand of God in the events of the last 60 years. Had it not been in it, Israel would have been wiped of the earth long ago.
Within the Church, there are two predominant schools of thought concerning God’s relationship with Israel. First, we have those who advocate what is commonly referred to as “Replacement Theology.” This line of thinking asserts that as a result of repeated disobedience throughout Israel’s history and culminating in the general rejection and crucifixion of Christ, that the Church has now inherited the calling and blessings once bestowed upon Israel. The Church, therefore, has replaced natural Israel as the “New Spiritual Israel of God.” The other line of thinking is that God’s covenant with Israel has never been broken by God, and though Israel for the most part has been unfaithful, God remains faithful to His covenant with Israel as His “chosen people.” Furthermore, God has never revoked the promise of establishing the land of Israel as the “Jewish Homeland.” In 1948, after many centuries, God once again restored His promise to the Jewish people in establishing them as a sovereign nation in the land, generally considered to be “The Final Return.”
As a result, we are to be fully supportive of both The State of Israel and increased immigration of the Jewish people back to The Land. Frankly, it is difficult to imagine how even a small number of theologians could hold to the view of Replacement Theology. One must hold a rather acute preconceived notion in order to have derived an interpretation such as this. It is just as doubtful that among numerous references, among them Romans 9, 10, and 11, can such a view be supported when approached with any reasonable degree of objectivity. A legitimate question might be, “If Israel can supposedly be replaced because of its disobedience, can the Church in turn be replaced because of hers?” On the other hand, many who subscribe to the other persuasion may be surprised at the supposition that the latter view is also fraught with serious pitfalls, having even greater negative implications for the Church as well as Israel.
To those within the Church having a genuine love and burden for Israel’s salvation and national preservation, have we been premature in our coronation of Israel and excessive in our kudos pertaining to her accomplishments? Does our lowering of the standards for Israel make it easier to apply those same standards to the Church, encouraging the application of a cheaper standard leading to self-congratulations and complacency? Are the characteristics of present-day Israel consistent with those described in the Scriptures of a repentant people having been restored to The Land by God Himself, comprising a truly redeemed nation? And will the so-called “lovers of Israel” now boldly proclaimed by some, be ultimately exposed as having been nothing more than fleshly sentimentality when tested at the expense of one’s personal reputation or physical persecution?
It is better that questions such as these be applied to “judge the thoughts and intentions of our hearts” now rather than later, before that day comes when we shall no longer have sufficient opportunity nor privilege of having our hearts examined, and if necessary, being brought to true repentance. In daring to ask these questions, we also dare to receive answers which may run contrary to our preconceived notions. But, in our quest to understand God’s dealings with Israel, we may also come to better understand God’s dealings with the Church. For in Israel we may come to see a truer reflection of the Church than we ever would have imagined, who made both groups into one. Therefore, we must pay particular attention, for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
In the first chapter of Genesis we see God’s original intention for man; to bear the image of God and to have dominion over the earth. When man sinned, his representation of the image of God became tainted, and as a result, he was driven out from the Garden of Eden, his primary habitation. Herein lies the first revelation of a spiritual law God established at the very beginning of creation, and it is eternal. God’s representative and intended counterpart acquired his rightful ownership to the land as long as he faithfully bore the image of God. When he did not, he was disqualified from his inheritance and driven out. Generations later, God, through the patriarchs, would raise up a corporate man, Israel, who would be called to bear the image of God as a nation and given a specific land as his home.
It is critical to our overall understanding to note that due to their rebellion God allowed an entire generation of Hebrews to die in the wilderness prior to their entering “The Promised Land.” It was their offspring, a relatively untainted generation whom God would bring into that land. We must bear in mind that God never intended a corrupt, unredeemed people to take possession of, much less even to enter the land, prior to their redemption. It is simply inconsistent with the laws and ways of God. Salvation always precedes inheritance and not before. Neither, do we enter into Heaven prior to our salvation, but rather as a result and reward of our salvation.
In Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, God in graphic detail elaborates on the severe consequences of disobedience to the children of Israel. If they would be faithful to God and His commandments they would enjoy blessings and security in the land. But, if they were unfaithful, among a host of various forms of punishment, they would be expelled from the land. Throughout Israel’s history, this spiritual law would hold true. Moreover, when God brought those who had been taken into Babylonian captivity back to the land of Israel as described in the Book of Ezra, it was not just everybody and anybody who could return. We read, Then the heads of fathers’ households of Judah and Benjamin and the priests and the Levites arose, even everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up and rebuild the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem (Ezra 1:5). The sum total of those who would return was merely a remnant of all those living in captivity at that time and was limited to those spiritually called, prepared, and qualified by God prior to their return.
In Deuteronomy 30, God promises eventual restoration to the land, but please pay close attention to the order of things. The preconditions are as follows: So it shall become when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the Lord will restore you from captivity, and I will have compassion on you, and I will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you.
In Ezekiel 20, God again bears witness along these same lines when He speaks of future restoration; and I shall purge from among you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I shall bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the Lord. In Ezekiel 37, He says, Then you will know that I am the Lord when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you in your own land. It is worth going back and reading these passages and other related Scriptures in their entirety, for it is consistently clear that God first prepares His people by bringing them into judgment: a purging and refining leading to godly sorrow which leads to true repentance and restoration, qualifying us for full inheritance.
God’s ways are certainly not our ways. In God’s economy, death must precede life, the Cross must precede resurrection, and it was out of love that Jesus allowed His beloved Lazarus to die in order that he might experience resurrection life. What was initially perceived through human eyes as a needless death due to lack of compassion, proved to be an act of Divine love, as seen through eternal eyes. Interference with this process, even with the best of intentions, will often circumvent the ways and will of God. For we dare not give the Lord cause to speak these terrible words to us, “Get behind Me, Satan!” In our zeal to sustain life, we may unwittingly prevent real life and God’s purposes from being fulfilled to the one we truly love. Such is God’s dealings with Israel and the Church.
As Israel and many of her well-intentioned supporters claim rightful inheritance to the land prior to and apart from godly repentance, so too many in the Church look towards a premature taking up of the Bride unto Christ. He longs for His Bride who has made herself ready, that He might present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless (Eph. 5:27). II Peter 3:11-12 exhorts us to holy conduct and godliness by which we can actually hasten the coming of the Lord. It should be clear from Scripture that for Israel it will require a proud and self-sufficient people brought to her knees and without hope as depicted in Ezekiel 37:11b, “Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.” She will be brought to a place of true godly repentance, leading to salvation. It may also mean that out of a true love for Israel, we will have to resist the natural response of, “This shall never happen to you!”, and allow God’s dealings to be carried through, having its perfect result…”
To the Church, as with Israel, God says to us, Let us therefore be diligent to enter His rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience (Heb. 4:11). Israel and the Church are prophetically destined to enter their inheritance together. Their paths destined to converge, the process destined to be the same.
MBIM said: “You declare to be a watchman and You say that You are keeping an eye on the enemy! I have noticed Your true colours long time ago!”
Careful sister. Attacks such as yours actually confirms the watchman. MOST, the majority of those called God’s people actually opposed watchmen like Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others.
MBIM said: “Anyone who rejoices in the fact that a person was murdered,is not in touch with the Father’s heart!”
You twist my words and what I actually said. Go back and you’ll see that all I said was that I was glad he was dead…not that he was murdered. You really need to be more careful when attacking another Christian. So tell me sister, what was in the Father’s heart every time this butcher murdered a baby? And what is in the Father’s heart over those who have to deal with guilt and shame for the rest of their lives?
Did you know that there are only four doctors in the U.S. who kill babies in the last trimester of a pregnancy? I pray to God the other three would die as well….not murdered….but die, so the babies can live. If I’m not of the Spirit of God then I pray God would show me and I’ll repent. Don’t you understand that this nation will pay for approving of abortionists? Don’t you realize the judgments of God will come down on Americans for this terrible sin?
I posted the Phinehas murder found in Numbers 25. God was pleased with this man as it saved Israel from further judgment. Please explain God’s pleasure with Phineahas’ zeal.
I also quoted from David imprecatory Psalms that are prayers for the death of God’s enemies. What do you do with that? But this isn’t really the thread to discuss this is it MBIM..? So why do you post this here??? To seek to slander a true watchman seeking to show God’s people the truth about Israel, that’s why. That is what is wicked and that is what shows your true colors. See how you connect the two:
See how you use one to attack the other. Shame on you! Where have I ever had a vision or dream posted on this site? Where is my website? Where is my blog where I post MY visions and revelations? I have had none so you won’t find I have posted any. Another lie about a true brother my sister. I have supported those like David Wilkerson and Miriam Franklin who have them and are warning the church to be prepared for what is coming. I will also oppose those who promote false visions and dreams.
And your point is…???
Another accusation against me without any proof about what is really in my heart. I’m not familiar with the “forgotten umbrella” story or thread. Furthermore, I don’t rejoice in doom and gloom and I have never shared “a revelation” that God has shown me about doom and gloom. I rejoice in Christ and the gospel. I hope in His soon return and I weep over those lost. I weep and pray for unbelieving Jews….my wife is a Messianic Jew and has many Jewish kin that are walking in unbelief. We regularly pray and intercede for unbelievers specifically Jewish. But let’s be clear. You only bring up this second attack because you don’t agree with my position on Israel. That’s ok. I can take it. Here is what God said to His watchman Ezekiel:
Ezk. 3:10 “Moreover He said to me: “Son of man, receive into your heart all My words that I speak to you, and hear with your ears. 11 And go, get to the captives, to the children of your people, and speak to them and tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ whether they hear, or whether they refuse.”
I find it quite interesting that the issue here is the very same issue Ezekiel and Jeremiah faced…namely…that God would destroy Israel for failing to repent of their wicked unbelief. The pillow prophets preached “peace for Jerusalem” when God was proclaiming judgment. This is why Jesus was crucified. He told the unbelieving Jews they would die in their sins and their city destroyed if they rejected Him. The same needs to be said today. Unless the Jews come to faith in Jesus Christ as their Messiah they will die in their sins, John 8:24. Their house was left desolate for rejecting God’s Son and will remain that way since Christ, the true High Priest has entered the Temple above. We are not doing Jews a favor telling them they are God’s chosen people and have a wonderful future while they remain outside of faith in Christ.
You sound a little puffed up here sister. Shall I now pat you on the back because you intercede for others? Because of your many pages, does that make your doctrine infallible?
Let me surprise you that I’m more of an intercessor than I am anything else. I am more comfortable with pray-ers and intercessors than I am with anyone else. I actually started a daily half hour radio program called “Prayerwaves” where all i did was pray and intercede since most Christian radio programs are preaching programs. I both fast and pray for the lost, so you really do need to stop being a tool of the one who accuses the brethren.
May I suggest you do some reading concerning who the true people of God are. At least try to understand why we believe the way we do. Some of the holiest men of God like Philip Mauro, John R.W. Stott and Martyn Lloyd-Jones teach that God is done with Israel as a nation and is now focused on them as individuals. Google them and read what they have to say.
If a temple is built, it won’t be because it is God’s will. It will be because of Judaistic Jews seeking to keep a religion of works alive. I’m sorry if this offends. The New Testament teaches this very thing. Read Hebrews. Hebrews is God’s last warning to the Christian Jews right before 70 A.D. The warning was to stay away from Jewish nationalism.
This whole teaching of a third temple is partly the result of ripping the seventieth week away from the other 69 weeks and putting it some 2000 years into the future. Think about it….here is a prophecy God only intended to reach from Daniel’s time to the coming of the Messiah…490 years (Daniel 9). Now we have prophecy teachers telling us the gap between the 69th week and 70th week is some 2000 years long which is four times the length of the prophecy to begin with. Amazing.
MBIM, you don’t have to agree with my position but please deal with the doctrine and spare the attacks. Thanks.
For all those who believe that there is no third temple deal with THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, AND REVELATIONS CHAPTER 11. And I would like to see LOGICAL BIBLICAL EXPLANATIONS WITHOUT SIMPLY THROWING AWAY SCRIPTURE!!! I DO NOT SEE ANYONE HERE SAYING THAT THERE IS ANY OTHER WAY TO THE FATHER EXCEPT JESUS!! So what is the hangup?! The JEWS WILL BE GRAFTED BACK IN SCRIPTURE IS PLAIN ON THIS!! Why is this such a stumbling block??!! No one is suggesting that the JEWS can be made righteous by sacrifice in the temple, we all know that that is impossible!! However those JEWS who believe that their MESSIAH has not come yet will build this temple thus setting the stage for antichrist, no one says that this is RIGHT!! Yet it will happen because biblical prophecy points to it happenning and then after all hell is unleashed their will be a remnant which will be grafted back in! I do not understand why this is so hard to see! Paul speaks of it all through Rom. 11 just as MyBeloved says above! Anna is alao right on in her assessment! I will say that when you take the JEWS out of the picture you join the company of Hitler, the KKK, Skinheads and white supremacists, and I dont think we want to be thrown into their camp! Do we? THE WHOLE BIBLE!!! NOT JUST THOSE PARTS WE LIKE OR MAKE OUR DOCTRINE STAND UP!!! I also ask the same question I did earlier. What about Ezek.40-48 When is that temple going to be built and what of the sacrifices that those chapters speak of? Answers anyone? Or are we just going to spiritualize it away as we seem to like to do with those things that dont fit our theology? GOD BLESS!!!
Oh I might add one more group of people who think they are the spiritual JEWS and that is THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH! Ever wonder why they dont recognize the nation of ISRAEL? Just another thought to ponder. GOD BLESS!!!
Good concise summary of the situation Anna!
PS Lawrence – certainly Cain’s genes may well have been passed on through any of Noah’s sons if they married outside of Sethite families. But salvation is for all, delivering us not only of Cain’s genes but Adam’s too! Rom.5.18-19.
Comment by BB:
“If a temple is built, it won’t be because it is God’s will. It will be because of Judaistic Jews seeking to keep a religion of works alive. I’m sorry if this offends.”
I don’t seem to recall anyone saying that God would be behind a rebuilt temple. But a manmade temple for manmade reasons is STILL a temple, whether its purpose is legitimate or not.
And scripture does indicate the presence of a temple in the last days.
It is merely enlightening that “anointed men of God” like Benny Hinn have been so much in support of a building that will one day be the throne of Antichrist. Surely that ignorant support reveals much about the “anointing” that men like Hinn possess. It is a false anointing that seeks to enthrone the false anointed one (antichrist)
Richard. I did answer your posting. You just refuse to accept the answer I gave. Why not respond to the Scripture I posted found in Eph. 2?
But to answer YOUR question about God being faithful to His covenant promise of land I submit this:
“So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.” (Joshua 21:43–45)
All the elements necessary for the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant as related to the land are present in these verses: God gave the Israelites the land He had promised to give; they possessed and lived in the land; they had rest; their enemies did not stand before them; not one of the promises God made to the house of Israel failed. If these verses do not teach what they seem to teach, then how else could God have put it, said it, or written it if He had wanted to inform the Israelites that they had in fact possessed the land as promised?
For all those who believe Israel will build a new temple in the future in accordance with God’s covenant please read at the following link. This link also answers the text that Onesimus put forth regarding Jeremiah 31:
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/dasc/THOI19.HTM#Sec1
I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this or not; but, what about Matthew 24:15 regarding the “abomination that causes desolution spoken of through the prophet Daniel” that Jesus speaks of? The NIV text note references fufillment of this in 168BC and again in 70AD with the Roman destruction of the temple. Yet, the text note also refers to the “setting up of an image of the antichrist in Jerusalem (see 2Th 2:4; Rev 13:14-15…)” while also referring of course to Daniel 9:25-27, 11:31.
Hi Vince
I will do my best regarding the questions you have posed,but i will just deal with the “Abomination of Desolation” and Revelation chapter 11 at this point.
Abomination of Desolation.
Perhaps before we begin we might examine the text in which this phrase occurs.
Matthew 24:15
Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place [whoever reads , let him understand], then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Daniel9:26
And after the sixty two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, But not for Himself
and the people of the prince who is to come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
the end of it shall be with a flood
and till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week
but in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
even until the consumation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
We are told in the Matthew 24 passage that the abomination of desolation will be standing in the holy place, so in which holy place is it standing?.There are a few options to consider here, the most obvious being the jewish temple.
There are some diificulties that present with this though, the first being that the temple was The Holy Place up until the time of Jesus’ death but after that no longer.
John 2:18
So the Jews answered and said to Him,What sign do you show to us , since You do these things?
Jesus answered and said to them,Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up
Then the Jews said” it has taken forty six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?
But he was speaking of the Temple of His body.
If this is the Holy place in which the abomination of desolation is standing , then this would had to have occured sometime between Christ telling his disciples and the time of His death, this is clearly not the reference here.
The next option to consider is the supposedly rebuilt temple, the one under disscussion here, but as we can see from John 2:21 ” the Temple of His body” any such rebuilt temple would not be a holy place, in fact it would itself be an abomination, there fore we would have abominations within the abomination.The following passage in 1 Cor 3:16 rules this temple out as being the “holy place ” in which the abomination stands ,and gives a lead into which holy place the abomination stands.
1 Cor 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone defiles the temple of God , God will destroy him.For the temple of God is Holy, which temple you are.
So we are left with three other options to qualify as the Holy Place.
Christ has established Himself as being the temple [John 2:21]We also have been established as the temple through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but in any of these is it possible for the abomination to stand?. Certainly not in Christs temple, as for the temple that Christ has established in us , if the abomination stood in us ,we can no longer be considered a Temple.
The last option is the temple that we are collectively ie the church.
Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore , you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building being fitted together , grows into a Holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
This then Vince , is the Holy Place in which the abomination of desolation is seen standing,in the church.
The trend of today’s ” church” is one of removing God from the very place that He has established for Himself, but sadly , through many influences such as music , humanism, psychology , the occult and many other pagan practices , we see God being removed from His rightful place and the ” mangod” being put on the throne.Oh that we would only open our eyes and recognise the deception that lays before us.That the righteous stand in churches makes those places Holy places, that we stand with wicked people in those places makes for the abomination that causes desolation.It really is time to run to the mountain, the mountain of God , for that is the only place we truly find peace.
God Bless.
Vince, I will shortly post something on Rev 11
BB wrote:
If a temple is built, it won’t be because it is God’s will. It will be because of Judaistic Jews seeking to keep a religion of works alive. I’m sorry if this offends. The New Testament teaches this very thing. Read Hebrews. Hebrews is God’s last warning to the Christian Jews right before 70 A.D. The warning was to stay away from Jewish nationalism.
—————————————————–
A third Temple will be rebuilt as a fulfillment of “last days” prophecy and to accomplish God’s purposes at that time. But, it WILL NOT bring salvation to anyone. The Temple and renewed sacrifices will be for a very short time until the Beast makes himself known when he takes his seat as God in the Holy of Holies (abomination of desolation).
Just as a false peace will be made according to God’s purposes, so too will He allow the Temple and the sacrifices to be reinstituted for a short time for the same reasons. They are a means to an end, but not an end in themselves. They are simply part of the process.
Yes, salvation does ultimately occur at the individual level, but at the end of the age, the nation of Israel will be “born in a day,” those who “survive the sword” to the end of the Tribulation and “look upon Him whom they have pierced…” It will be a broken, repentant, and redeemed people, and only a redeemed people, who inherit the Land forever. Make no mistake, God will fulfill His everlasting covenant with Israel, not because of anything worthy on their part, but for the sake of God’s glory.
Today’s nation of Israel is not the Israel which fulfills God’s criteria for “The Final Return.” Much is yet to occur to bring them, as a nation, to that spiritual place. And the Church will be instrumental in that ultimate redemption, both at the individual and national level. I submit to you that Israel’s and the Church’s destinies are intertwined, and that God’s dealings with Israel are not unlike that of God’s dealings with the Church.
To Fred London, I appreciate your sound writings and knowledge. As I wrote a week ago, the 3rd Temple will be rebuilt from the ‘will of man’. How and when – we don’t know. But it will be rebuilt. It’s the culminating dream of the masonic order behind the whole New World Order program to rebuild Solomon’s Temple and put their new age christ on the throne. We are getting funnelled into a one world religion, a New World Order, a totalitarian government.
The new Temple has nothing to do with Jesus and His Salvation. It is just a political/religious activity and the Jews (who don’t know their Scriptures) will be duped into believing that this ‘great leader’ is the Christ.
The Christians who support the rebuilding of the Temple have been ‘hoodwinked’ themselves or they are just trying to hurry up endtimes events.
Personally, to see that Temple on the mount would be the most awesome event in history. Only, only only from the perspective that God’s word has confirmed itself and that Jesus must be that much closer to coming back.
Open Letter to Evangelicals & Other Interested Parties:
The People of God, the Land of Israel, and the Impartiality of the Gospel
Recently a number of leaders in the Protestant community of the United States have urged the endorsement of far-reaching and unilateral political commitments to the people and land of Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, citing Holy Scripture as the basis for those commitments.
To strengthen their endorsement, several of these leaders have also insisted that they speak on behalf of the seventy million people who constitute the American evangelical community.
It is good and necessary for evangelical leaders to speak out on the great moral issues of our day in obedience to Christ’s call for his disciples to be salt and light in the world.1
It is quite another thing, however, when leaders call for commitments that are based upon a serious misreading of Holy Scripture. In such instances, it is good and necessary for other evangelical leaders to speak out as well. We do so here in the hope that we may contribute to the cause of the Lord Christ, apart from whom there can never be true and lasting peace in the world.2
At the heart of the political commitments in question are two fatally flawed propositions:
First, some are teaching that God’s alleged favor toward Israel today is based upon ethnic descent rather than upon the grace of Christ alone, as proclaimed in the Gospel.
Second, others are teaching that the Bible’s promises concerning the land are fulfilled in a special political region or “Holy Land,” perpetually set apart by God for one ethnic group alone. As a result of these false claims, large segments of the evangelical community, our fellow citizens, and our government are being misled with regard to the Bible’s teachings regarding the people of God, the land of Israel, and the impartiality of the Gospel.
In what follows, we make our convictions public. We do so acknowledging the genuine evangelical faith of many who will not agree with us.
Knowing that we may incur their disfavor, we are nevertheless constrained by Scripture and by conscience to publish the following propositions for the cause of Christ and truth.
The Gospel offers eternal life in heaven to Jews and Gentiles alike as a free gift in Jesus Christ.3 Eternal life in heaven is not earned or deserved, nor is it based upon ethnic descent or natural birth.4
All human beings, Jews and Gentiles alike, are sinners,5 and, as such, they are under God’s judgment of death.6 Because God’s standard is perfect obedience and all are sinners, it is impossible for anyone to gain temporal peace or eternal life by his own efforts.
Moreover, apart from Christ, there is no special divine favor upon any member of any ethnic group; nor, apart from Christ, is there any divine promise of an earthly land or a heavenly inheritance to anyone, whether Jew or Gentile.7 To teach or imply otherwise is nothing less than to compromise the Gospel itself.
God, the Creator of all mankind, is merciful and takes no pleasure in punishing sinners.8 Yet God is also holy and just and must punish sin.9 Therefore, to satisfy both his justice and his mercy, God has appointed one way of salvation for all, whether Jew or Gentile, in Jesus Christ alone.10
Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully man,11 came into the world to save sinners.12 In his death upon the cross, Jesus was the Lamb of God taking away the sin of the world, of Jew and of Gentile alike. The death of Jesus forever fulfilled and eternally ended the sacrifices of the Jewish temple.13
All who would worship God, whether Jew or Gentile, must now come to him in spirit and truth through Jesus Christ alone. The worship of God is no longer identified with any specific earthly sanctuary. He receives worship only through Jesus Christ, the eternal and heavenly Temple.14
To as many as receive and rest upon Christ alone through faith alone, to Jews and Gentiles alike, God gives eternal life in his heavenly inheritance.15
The inheritance promises that God gave to Abraham were made effective through Christ, Abraham’s True Seed.16 These promises were not and cannot be made effective through sinful man’s keeping of God’s law.17 Rather, the promise of an inheritance is made to those only who have faith in Jesus, the True Heir of Abraham.
All spiritual benefits are derived from Jesus, and apart from him there is no participation in the promises.18 Since Jesus Christ is the Mediator of the Abrahamic Covenant, all who bless Him and his people will be blessed of God, and all who curse him and his people will be cursed of God.19
These promises do not apply to any particular ethnic group,20 but to the church of Jesus Christ, the true Israel.21 The people of God, whether the church of Israel in the wilderness in the Old Testament22 or the Israel of God among the Gentile Galatians in the New Testament,23 are one body who through Jesus will receive the promise of the heavenly city, the everlasting Zion.24 This heavenly inheritance has been the expectation of the people of God in all ages.25
Jesus taught that his resurrection was the raising of the True Temple of Israel.26 He has replaced the priesthood, sacrifices, and sanctuary of Israel by fulfilling them in his own glorious priestly ministry and by offering, once and for all, his sacrifice for the world, that is, for both Jew and Gentile.27
Believers from all nations are now being built up through him into this Third Temple,28 the church that Jesus promised to build.29
Simon Peter spoke of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in conjunction with the final judgment and the punishment of sinners.30 Instructively, this same Simon Peter, the Apostle to the Circumcision,31 says nothing about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in the land of Palestine.32 Instead, as his readers contemplate the promise of Jesus’ Second Coming, he fixes their hope upon the new heavens and the new earth, in which righteousness dwells.33
The entitlement of any one ethnic or religious group to territory in the Middle East called the “Holy Land” cannot be supported by Scripture. In fact, the land promises specific to Israel in the Old Testament were fulfilled under Joshua.34
The New Testament speaks clearly and prophetically about the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70.35 No New Testament writer foresees a regathering of ethnic Israel in the land, as did the prophets of the Old Testament after the destruction of the first temple in 586 B.C.36
Moreover, the land promises of the Old Covenant are consistently and deliberately expanded in the New Testament to show the universal dominion of Jesus,37 who reigns from heaven upon the throne of David, inviting all the nations through the Gospel of Grace to partake of his universal and everlasting dominion.38
Bad Christian theology regarding the “Holy Land” contributed to the tragic cruelty of the Crusades in the Middle Ages. Lamentably, bad Christian theology is today attributing to secular Israel a divine mandate to conquer and hold Palestine, with the consequence that the Palestinian people are marginalized and regarded as virtual “Canaanites.”39
This doctrine is both contrary to the teaching of the New Testament and a violation of the Gospel mandate.40 In addition, this theology puts those Christians who are urging the violent seizure and occupation of Palestinian land in moral jeopardy of their own bloodguiltiness. Are we as Christians not called to pray for and work for peace, warning both parties to this conflict that those who live by the sword will die by the sword?41
Only the Gospel of Jesus Christ can bring both temporal reconciliation and the hope of an eternal and heavenly inheritance to the Israeli and the Palestinian. Only through Jesus Christ can anyone know peace on earth.
The promised Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ has been inaugurated. Its advent marks the focal point of human history. This kingdom of the Messiah is continuing to realize its fullness as believing Jews and Gentiles are added to the community of the redeemed in every generation.
The same kingdom will be manifested in its final and eternal form with the return of Christ the King in all his glory.
Of all the nations, the Jewish people played the primary role in the coming of the Messianic kingdom. New Testament Scripture declares that to them were given the oracles of God,42 the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises.43 Theirs are the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and from them, according to the flesh, came Christ.44 Salvation is, indeed, of the Jews.45
While affirming the Scriptural teaching that there is no salvation outside of Christ, Christians should acknowledge with heartfelt sorrow and grief the frequent oppression of the Jews in history, sometimes tragically done in the name of the cross.
But what are we to make of the unbelief of Israel? Has their unbelief made the faithfulness of God without effect for them?46 No, God has not completely rejected the people of Israel,47 and we join the apostle Paul in his earnest prayer for the salvation of his Jewish kinsmen according to the flesh.48 There always has been and always will be a remnant that is saved.49
While not all Israel will experience the blessing of participation in the Messianic kingdom,50 yet Jews who do come to faith in Christ will share in his reign throughout the present age and into eternity. In addition, it is not as though the rejection of some in Israel for unbelief serves no purpose. On the contrary, because they were broken off in unbelief, the Gospel has gone to the Gentiles, who now, through faith, partake of the blessings to the fathers and join with believing Jews to constitute the true Israel of God, the church of Jesus Christ.51
The present secular state of Israel, however, is not an authentic or prophetic realization of the Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, a day should not be anticipated in which Christ’s kingdom will manifest Jewish distinctives, whether by its location in “the land,” by its constituency, or by its ceremonial institutions and practices. Instead, this present age will come to a climactic conclusion with the arrival of the final, eternal phase of the kingdom of the Messiah.
At that time, all eyes, even of those who pierced him, will see the King in his glory.52 Every knee will bow, and every tongue will declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.53 The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever.54
In light of the grand prophetic expectation of the New Testament, we urge our evangelical brothers and sisters to return to the proclamation of the free offer of Christ’s grace in the Gospel to all the children of Abraham, to pray for peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and to promise all humanitarian sympathy and practical support for those on both sides who are suffering in this current vicious cycle of atrocity and displacement.
We also invite those Christian educators and pastors who share our convictions on the people of God, the land of Israel, and the impartiality of the Gospel to join their names with ours as signatories to this open letter.55
In the Year of our Lord 2002
Soli Deo Gloria
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1 Matthew 5:13-16, “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”
2 John 14:27, “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”
3 Romans 6:23, “The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
4 Luke 3:8, “And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.” Ephesians 2:8-9, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”
5 Romans 3:22-23, “There is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
6 Romans 6:23, “The wages of sin is death.”
7 Romans 3:9-10, “Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one.’”
8 Ezekiel 18:23, 32, “Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? … I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
9 Exodus 34:7, “He does not leave the guilty unpunished.”
10 Acts 4:12, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” John 14:6, “Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’”
11 John 1:1, 14, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
12 1 Timothy 1:15, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”
13 Hebrews 9:11-12, “But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.” Hebrews 10:11-12, “And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God.”
14 John 4:21, 23, “Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. … But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.’” John 2:19-21, “Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ Then the Jews said, ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?’” But he was speaking of the temple of his body.”
15 Romans 1:16, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek [Gentile].” John 1:12-13, “But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
16 Galatians 3:16, “Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.”
17 Romans 4:13, “The promise to Abraham that he would be the heir of the world was not to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”
18 Galatians 3:7, 26-29, “Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. … For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to promise.”
19 Genesis 12:3, “I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you.” Galatians 3:7-8, “Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘All the nations will be blessed in you.’”
20 Galatians 3:22, “But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” Matthew 21:43, “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing the fruit of it.”
21 Romans 2:28-29, “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” Philippians 3:3, “For we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.”
22 Acts 7:38, “This [Moses] is the one who was in the church in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai.”
23 Galatians 6:16, “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.”
24 Hebrews 13:14, “For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.” Philippians 3:20, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 3:13, “We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.” Revelation 21:9-14, “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, ‘Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. … Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel … . Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Hebrews 11:39-40, ” And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.”
25 Hebrews 11:13-16, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” Hebrews 12:22-24, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”
26 John 2:19-21, “Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ Then the Jews said, ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?’” But he was speaking of the temple of his body.”
27 Hebrews 8:1-6, “Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. … For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things … . But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as he is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.” See further Hebrews 4:14-5:10; 6:13-10:18.
28 Ephesians 2:19-22, “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” 1 Peter 2:4-6, “And coming to him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: ‘Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, and he who believes in him shall not be disappointed.’”
29 Matthew 16:18, “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” Hebrews 3:5-6, “For [Jesus] has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later. But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house.”
30 2 Peter 3:10-13, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”
31 Galatians 2:7, “The gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to [Paul], as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for he who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in [Paul] toward the Gentiles).”
32 Cf. Acts 1:6-7, “Therefore, when they had come together, they asked [Jesus], saying, ‘Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’ And he said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in his own authority.’”
33 2 Peter 3:13, “We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”
34 Joshua 21:43-45, “So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which he had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that he had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing that the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.”
35 Matthew 24:1-2, “Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, ‘Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.’” See also Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:20-24.
36 Luke 21:24, “Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
37 Exodus 20:12, “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.” // Ephesians 6:2-3, “‘Honor your father and mother,’ which is the first commandment with promise: ‘that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.’” Genesis 12:1, “Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you”; cf. Romans 4:13, “The promise to Abraham that he would be the heir of the world was not to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” Psalm 37:11, “But the meek shall inherit the land, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” // Matthew 5:5, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” Psalm 2:7-8, “The Lord has said to me, ‘You are my Son, Today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will give you the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession.”
38 Acts 2:29-32, “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.”
39 Deuteronomy 20:16-18, “Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the Lord your God.” See also Leviticus 27:28-29.
40 Matthew 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations.”
41 Matthew 26:52, “But Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
42 Romans 3:2, “They [the Jews] were entrusted with the oracles of God.”
43 Romans 9:3-4, “For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises.”
44 Romans 9:5, “whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.”
45 John 4:22, “Salvation is of the Jews.”
46 Romans 3:1-4, “What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!”
47 Romans 11:1, “Has God cast away his people? Certainly not!” See further Romans 11:2-10.
48 Romans 9:1-3, “I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.”
49 Romans 11:5, “Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”
50 Romans 9:6, “They are not all Israel who are of Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants.”
51 Romans 11:11-18, “I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. … For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. … And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.”
52 Revelation 1:7, “Behold, he is coming with clouds, and every eye will see him, even they who pierced him.”
53 Philippians 2:9-11, “God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
54 Revelation 11:15, “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever!’”
55 Those who wish to add their names as signatories to this Open Letter may do so by contacting us by letter at Knox Theological Seminary, 5554 N. Federal Hwy., Ft. Lauderdale, FL, or by e-mail at DeanofFaculty@knoxseminary.org. :
http://www.endtimesmadness.com/OpenLetter.html
http://www.endtimesmadness.com/Provocative.html
BB you are reading error in pursuing preterism espoused by
Philip Mauro. No wonder you don’t get it. You are as Vince said in sympathy with the Catholic stance,which itself should give you cause for concern.
Founded on the false interpretation of Mt24, which I seem to remember figured strongly in your argument,Preterism insist “this generation” points to a fulfillment within the first century. This provides the necessary platform to deride a literal translation of any contradictory textual references which describe a futuristic fulfillment of prophetic events beyond AD70.
A scholarly review of the statements of Jesus Mt23,24, particularly Mt23:36/39 makes clear that He WAS NOT referring to those living at that time as the “generation”.
In simple grammer He would have said “THIS” generation had He meant it when in fact He said “THAT” generation pointing to a FUTURE generation, a generation WHO MUST BE IN THE LAND
at the time of fulfillment.
Check out Lk21:27/32. Redemption not judgement,which links to Jer31:35/37. (I’ve asked you B4 when did this happen?)
Preterism interpretation of the word “generation” is deeply flawed and in no way squares with the Greek.
Once you are hidebound by preterism it is inevitable you will go on to compound your error in all subsequent interpretation of scripture. Though you continue to grasp at individual/disconnected verses in an attempt to re-inforce your position,the very foundation of your argument lies in ruins.
Covenant Israel will yet say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of The Lord”.
For all those who believe Israel will build a new temple in the future in accordance with God’s covenant please read at the following link. This link also answers the text that Onesimus put forth regarding Jeremiah 31:
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/dasc/THOI19.HTM#Sec1
Comment by BB | June 30, 2009
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Let me offer this perspective in contrast to the one BB submitted above. “Let each one be convinced in their own mind.”
http://www.zcpress.org/reggiekelly/Questions/The_Goal_of_the_Everlasting_Covenant_HOME.html
1. Please stop calling the proposed temple the “third” one, please count correctly. Search Psalms for temple; it pre-dated Solomon’s. And Herod’s was # 4.
2. I can’t believe the fact that people just can’t understand the clear, simple teaching of scripture! I suppose it is because they just rely on fictitious writings of Hal Lindsay, Tim F. LaHaye etc.
“Nevertheless, what says the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman” Gal.4;30.
God has made ONE new nation. It is His body – the Church catholic (not R.C).
3. The promise of Gen. 12:1-3 were to ABRAHAM – whose descendants Christians are. Jesus made a new people of God. Sheesh. Theology Kindergarden stuff.
Gal.
3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same >>> are the children of Abraham. <<<
3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
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Required reading:
The Roots of Evil in Jerusalem.
http://www.rense.com/general44/gikdeb.htm – written by Henry Makow – who is an Ashkenazi Jew and proud of it.
God is NOT involved with the PHYSICAL entity, the so-called false nation of "Israel". It is the invention of Herzl.
The Zionist Elephant In The Room
http://www.rense.com/general86/zelephant.htm
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So many "Christians" are so hoodwinked by the deception that one wonders if they are even born again at all!
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/dasc/THOI19.HTM
Let’s look at this from a different viewpoint, yet a Biblical one. Jesus came to the Jews, and the Gospels show that, with only a couple of exceptions. While there is much good info for the Christians there, we must see to whom Jesus was talking, the Jews. Note that there are two seeds from Abraham. One is the spiritual, (Born again Christians,) and the other is the physical offspring, the Jews.
We have to see there is a split there when the Jews rejected Jesus. The Jews and the Christians were given two different destinations. It is like a perenthesis in time, where the focus of God was on Christians, while the remaining 70th week of Daniel was put on hold until the end. Paul was chosen to be the Apostle for the gentiles, and his words show this. Thus, we need to heed his words that were meant for us, the spiritual seed of Abraham.
As for the Jews, they are even now being gathered back to Israel, preparing for the 70th week of Daniel, which will be the tribulation period. They do not gather as believers in Jesus, for the whole world must be set up just like it was when Israel was cut off in their allotted 490 years, at the 483rd year. A one world gov’t will be in charge, just as it was when the Romans ruled the known world back then.
To make it like they were when they were temporarily cut off, it will also require a new Temple to be built. No, the Holy Spirit will not be there….YET! But it must be there for the Jews to see the end times abomination of desolation to take place. That is when they will flee to Petra, where they will be fed and protected by God as the anti-christ extends his rule over the world. Those who did not flee will be killed, as will many gentiles over the world who refuse to take the mark of the beast.
The 144,000 virgin Jews will go out from Petra and evangelize the world, and many will be saved. We know how the anti-christ will be foiled by God, as the tribulation period ends. But the surviving Jews and gentiles (now saved,) in the world will enter the millennium. They will have missed both the rapture and martyrdom in the first resurrection, so they will live on in physical bodies thru the millennium.
If we do not see the obvious different destinies of Jews and Christians, we will forever miss what the Bible shows us and will remain confused. God WILL accomplish His words that ALL israel will be saved. But it will be only a remnant, those whom He has chosen to live thru the tribulation. DavWms
PS, a few more details. So yes, while the times of the gentiles goes on, the Christians are the Temple. But when they are removed in the rapture, attention will go back to the earthly rebuilt Temple of the Jews.
Solomon told us there is nothing new under the sun. In other words, what has happened before will happen again. We call this, “type and shadow” where something happens, such as the first abomination of a pig being sacrificed in the Temple, and then we see another later abomination of desolation when the anti-christ enters the end times rebuilt Temple and declares he is god. DavWms
Hang on a minute – who is that in the distance – why it’s Karen Butler with a tray laden with coffee and cinnamon buns – oh no – just a mirage – shame – I was going to ask for iced coffee as its pretty hot here in the uk.
Ray, you still miss the context of what JESUS is saying, and it seems to me you are spiritualizing scripture away. If Israel was of no significance and or importance, why is the whole end times scenario played out on this small piece of real estate and not in America or Europe or Asia? Im sorry but it appears to me that scripture has to be danced around and spiritualized to make your theory work. I just dont at all see what you are saying, but sure enough TIME WILL TELL!! One more thing, you still have not answered TILL THE TIME OF THE GENTILES BE FULLFILLED? What does this mean if their is no longer JEW or GENTILE? What I find hard to believe is the fact that a nation of people who were driven from their homeland (BY THEIR OWN ACTIONS I MIGHT ADD) returned to that very land after 2000 years of being dispersed to the 4 corners of the planet, and became a nation again! HAS THIS EVER HAPPENNED IN HISTORY BEFORE??!! Do you think it a COINCIDENCE? THIS IS BIBLICAL PROPHECY BEING FULFILLED RIGHT BEFORE OUR VERY EYES!!! And the amazing thing is that some want to discard it as a hoax or a conspiracy of satan. To me this all fits perfectly, as the nation of Israel will trust in Egypt(ANTICHRIST) to deliver and protect them, and then will see his true colors and will call out to their SAVIOR which they will realize IS JESUS and they will repent and call out to HIM and be saved(THUS GRAFTED BACK IN)! Then THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH WILL SLAY HIS ENEMIES IN THE VALLEY OF MEGGIDO. I see no other scenario. You see this is about biblical prophecy not whether the temple is right or wrong. I am still waiting for someone to explain Ezek. 40-48, and when this takes place? Are there any takers? GOD BLESS!!!
Is there no irony in the fact that some believe Israel has been disowned by God because of their disobedience – and yet the “church” that has supposedly replaced them is no less pitiful and sinful than the Israel that God is claimed to have abandoned?
Is there no irony in the fact that the theology of some has transferred the blessings of obedient Israel to the church – and yet they are reluctant to equally transfer the curses promised to a disobedient Israel?
Is there no irony in the confidence of some Christians, that God will remain faithful to them – while their doctrine accuses God of abandoning Israel in direct contradiction of His covenant with Israel?
Wow, what a shadow picture.
Job 20
23When he is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating. (Quail, while flesh in their mouth plague broke out)
24He shall flee from the iron weapon (Rome/Grecia/Iron & Clay), and the bow of steel shall strike him through.
25It is drawn, and cometh out of the body;(Jesus body?) yea, the glittering sword cometh out of his gall (Jesus gall to drink?): terrors are upon him.
26All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle. (distruction of Jerusalem)
27The heaven shall reveal his iniquity(overspreading of abominations); and the earth shall rise up against him. (make desolate/turn on harlot?)
28The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath. (gold and silver will not save them)
Psalm 18:10-12
10And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
12At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Notice that the darkness is in relation to the second coming?
40For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Revelation 10:5-7
5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Jerie
Onesimus.
Yes there is a heap of irony regarding some christian views on God’s approach to Israel and the church, which oddly enough, was birthed in Israel by God through Jesus his son. It’s also ironic that all of what we consider to be “our” holy scriptures were written by Jews. However, God is not a respecter of persons and it doesn’t matter who you are “Jesus” – some call him yeheshua – is the foundation and no one can build a life that goes on into eternity unless it’s built on him. A Jew that receives Jesus as Lord and saviour is still a Jew except that now this Jew has the full package deal and Jesus even said that a Jew that get’s converted is able to bring the wealth from the old covenant and use this to expose the new wealth from the new Covenant Matt 13:52.
As far as the Gentiles being the wild branch that is grafted in while the Jews being cut out, Paul also says that they too will be grafted in and he goes on to say that when this happens, God’s purpose for man will be complete, so the Jews will not be left out, but their temporary blindness is due to their refusal to accept Jesus. Just like the Jews who disobeyed Moses in the wilderness and died there until God raised a new Generation to inherit the promised land, Israel was dispersed among the nations until God brought them back and will complete the work that he began by restoring both Jew and Gentile to himself because that has been his plan since before the foundation of the earth.
Now for the issue of the church’s pride. I have seen and known Pastors and leaders in my local church over the past 25 years who walked a shaky life and wounded themselves greatly. One person that I was counselling at one point was a father of three, who wanted a whole deal of help but refused to allow God to work in his life and kept on harboring secret sins suddenly died. Another man was the assistant pastor at my church at one point, who had a fall out with the new senior pastor who challenged him about the his walk with God. Instead of heeding God’s word he left the church, floated around for a few years in several churches, became self absorbed and stopped going all together. He is now a devorced man, all his daughters have had children out of wedlock and are now single mums, and one of his sons has done time in prison. Why have I said all this? Simply to say that God is not a respector of people, we reap what we sew. The church is not exempt from God’s judgement if it takes his commands lightly. After all, it’s the same God that punished Israel for its sins.
So to respond to your comment. Yes, it’s very ironic.
Richard said: “BB you are reading error in pursuing preterism espoused by Philip Mauro. No wonder you don’t get it. You are as Vince said in sympathy with the Catholic stance,which itself should give you cause for concern.”
Richard, I’m not a preterist. I am amillennial though. And not everything the Catholic Church is wrong. I believe in the diety of Christ, but that doesn’t give me cause for concern.
Richard said: “Founded on the false interpretation of Mt24, which I seem to remember figured strongly in your argument,Preterism insist “this generation” points to a fulfillment within the first century. This provides the necessary platform to deride a literal translation of any contradictory textual references which describe a futuristic fulfillment of prophetic events beyond AD70.
A scholarly review of the statements of Jesus Mt23,24, particularly Mt23:36/39 makes clear that He WAS NOT referring to those living at that time as the “generation”.
In simple grammer He would have said “THIS” generation had He meant it when in fact He said “THAT” generation pointing to a FUTURE generation, a generation WHO MUST BE IN THE LAND
at the time of fulfillment.”
Well Richard, the words are “this generation”, not “that generation”, so let’s start there. I believe that Jesus was talking to His generation and that what happened to HIS generation will happen again at the end. In other words I believe what happened to the nation of Israel up to and including 70 A.D. was a ‘TYPE’ of what will occur to the whole world at His return. Preterists only believe in one fulfillment and I disagree with them on that.
Also the word for “generation” means “ethnos” or “race”. Could Jesus have been referring to the wicked unbelieving Jewish people, as a race, not passing away until all His words come to pass? I think so. They are certainly still here aren’t they?
Just as destruction came upon a wicked unbelieving generation in 70 A.D., it will come upon a wicked and unbelieving world. So I do believe that there is a dual fulfillment in Matthew 24…one on that generation and one in the final generation.
You also refer to Matthew 23:36-39 as a prophecy of Jews coming to faith as a nation. But there is no such prophecy there. You’ll note that Matthew includes these words AFTER His entrance as King on ‘palm Sunday’. But Luke tells us that Jesus said these words BEFORE He entered Jerusalem as their king, on a donkey.
Here is the words of Jesus in Matthew:
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
Since Matthew puts them chronologically after His triumphal entry, these words are used as a prophecy that the nation of Israel will receive Him as a king in the future. But Luke is more precise chronologically. Please note that Luke has Jesus saying these words BEFORE He entered Jerusalem:
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
Then Luke tells us that Jesus does not go back to Jerusalem until His entry as King. And we see that as He enters they say, “Blessed is he come comes in the Name of the Lord”, in accordance to the prophecy found in Psalm 118.
Luke 19:37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, 38 saying: “‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the LORD!’
Matthew put his gospel together differently than Luke and thus the confusion. The Jews still had some 40 years before 70 A.D. to receive Jesus as King and say, “Blessed is He”, and many did. God still is receiving Jews who receive Him as King, but the door is closing. TODAY is the day of salvation for gentile…and the Jew.
Richard said: “Check out Lk21:27/32. Redemption not judgement,which links to Jer31:35/37. (I’ve asked you B4 when did this happen?)”
My good brother, when Christ comes again He will come as a Lion, not a Lamb. He will come to redeem those seeking refuge in the blood of the Lamb. And He will come in judgment to those rejecting Him.
You accuse me of taking verses out of context, when that is exactly what is being done by those wrongly linking and connecting verses like you do here with Luke 21 and Jeremiah 31.
Didn’t Jesus initiate the new covenant at the last supper? Didn’t the author to Hebrews tell us that this covenant of putting the law into our hearts came with the receiving of Christ who sends His Spirit into our hearts to write His law of love?
God bless
Hi Vince
Firstly, i don’t “spiritualise away” scripture, i see most of the NT as having a spiritual interpretation.After all , God is Spirit, resides in spiritual places and has declared that ” my kingdom is not of this world”.Maybe consider this also
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and Earth will pass away , but My words will by no means pass away
What we might consider as important, God does not.Is the object of Gods plan to let a people occupy a piece of land that will one day burn up, or would His intention be to see those same people occupy a “land” that will last through eternity?.
Im going to spiritualise my next answer as well Vince, regarding the “time of the Gentiles be fulfilled”
If the apostle Paul has said that a Jew is one circumcised of the heart, then i see the reference to “Gentiles ” as being the unrighteous, and it is in this context that i read Rev 11.
Then i was given a reed like a measuring rod.And the angel stood, saying, Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar and those that worship there.But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty two months.
A few things to note here Vince
This temple was already in existence, John was asked to measure it , not to build it
The true church ie ” temple of God” the “altar” and “those ” that worship there are the focus of Johns “measuring”
The visible church ie the Gentiles , associated with the Temple, but are not part of the “temple of God” are treading the holy city for forty two months.
By using my “spiritualising away ” process, Vince, i would interpret this passage as being an illustration of the church,The “temple ” being the body of Christ, complete with the righteous and unrighteous[ they are treading the holy city for 42 months]
Now this is the real scary part Vince, the last week or 70 th week of Daniel chapter 9 has a mid way point, often referred to as “time, times and half a time” Daniel 7:25
With a little careful bible study here , we also see reference made to ” forty two months” and “1260 days” both of which are references to the “time ,times and half a time”.
With a little bit more study we can determine that the “1260″ days refers to the first half of the last week,Rev 12:6 and Rev 11 :3 and the “forty two months ” refers to the second half of the week, as in the passage we have just looked at in Rev 11:2.
NOW ,if we go back to Daniel 9:26
And the people of the prince who is to come
shall destroy the city and the SANCTUARY
Vince , here is a picture of desecration of the true church, this is by satan and his armies , and it is a full scale assault,and this i see happening as we speak!!
Any way Vince , you seem to be somewhat of a moving target, so how about you explain Ezekiel 40-48?
God Bless.
Fred said: “A third Temple will be rebuilt as a fulfillment of “last days” prophecy and to accomplish God’s purposes at that time. But, it WILL NOT bring salvation to anyone. The Temple and renewed sacrifices will be for a very short time until the Beast makes himself known when he takes his seat as God in the Holy of Holies (abomination of desolation).
Just as a false peace will be made according to God’s purposes, so too will He allow the Temple and the sacrifices to be reinstituted for a short time for the same reasons. They are a means to an end, but not an end in themselves. They are simply part of the process.
Yes, salvation does ultimately occur at the individual level, but at the end of the age, the nation of Israel will be “born in a day,” those who “survive the sword” to the end of the Tribulation and “look upon Him whom they have pierced…” It will be a broken, repentant, and redeemed people, and only a redeemed people, who inherit the Land forever. Make no mistake, God will fulfill His everlasting covenant with Israel, not because of anything worthy on their part, but for the sake of God’s glory.
Today’s nation of Israel is not the Israel which fulfills God’s criteria for “The Final Return.” Much is yet to occur to bring them, as a nation, to that spiritual place. And the Church will be instrumental in that ultimate redemption, both at the individual and national level. I submit to you that Israel’s and the Church’s destinies are intertwined, and that God’s dealings with Israel are not unlike that of God’s dealings with the Church.”
Thanks for this Fred. It helps to crystalize the interpretation of what exactly is believed will happen by those believing this. If this temple is only allowed to be built to deceive, will it still stand and be used after Jesus returns? If you believe in a millennial reign of Jesus on earth, will the same temple be there and will it be used?
You state that a third temple will be built according to last day prophecy. Could you share with me where that prophecy is located?
Response to comment by onesimus | July 1, 2009
Question: did God abandoned Israel? NO, God came to the Jews first. What then happened? Israel rejected the call?
So we see it was the Jews themselves who rejected Gods New Covenant. While not all Jew rejected the majority did.
Entrance into the covenant is not through a physical birth but through a spiritual birth. The whole issue is not that the Jews are “disowned”, but by their disobedience and stiff-necked hearts THEY CHOOSE NOT TO ENTER. That would be the same with anyone who chooses to reject the way of salvation.
Jesus himself defined what the father wanted to see in his people John 4: 21- “The hour cometh when neither in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the father. But the hour cometh and now is when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth. For the Father seeketh such to worship him”
Blessings that once belong to Israel (natural) Which now belong to Church.
True Jews
Heirs of Abraham…
promise seed…
Chosen generation..
peculiar people…
Blessing of Abraham…
Priesthood of all believers
treasured and purchased people
Grafted into the true vine
These and many more have been clearly mentioned throughout this BLOG, and backed by scripture. Scripture which is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Unless a man is born again he cannot enter JOHN 3: 5 KINGDOM OF GOD. Matthew 22: The parable of the wedding banquet. Kingdom of heaven is liken to a certain king which made a marriage for his son. His servant were sent to call that were bidden (Jews).. THEY WOULD NOT COME”
If they had come, then they too would have constituted the New covenant Church , but many refused.
John 15: Jesus says “I am the true vine.. verse 6 “If a man abide not in me he is cast forth as a branch and is withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned” Romans 11 speaks about the natural branches being broken of.
WHO BROKE THEM OF? The rebellious Jew themselves did.
Romans 11:7 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he (unsaved Jews) seeketh for. But the election (saved Jews) hath obtained it and the rest were blinded”
The whole issue as to the exclusion and replacement of the Jews has nothing to do with any reality that a repentant Jew is still unable to enter. But that inclusion is no longer the automatic basis of one race. But Faith in the finished work of Christ.
Some Jews came to argue with Jesus about the issue of being Gods covenant people. This is what JESUS had to say.
John 8: (read all)
Verse 39 “If ye are Abraham’s children ye would do the works of Abraham”
Verse 42 “If God were your Father, ye would love me, for I proceed forth from the Father..”
Verse 44 “Ye are of your Father the devil and the lusts of your father ye would do”
This is an odd thing for Jesus to refer to this covenant people? What covenant would we say they belong to ? Hebrews 8: 13 Old covenant which now decayed and is about to vanish. In order to be a “covenant people “they would have to obey that covenant? Jesus clearly says “NO” they broke and continue to break Gods covenants. So to say they are in covenant when even Jesus say they are not. Who are we to believe? In Matthew 12:46-50 Jesus own brethren came to seek audience with Jesus. They sent someone in to ask Jesus. Jesus replies “WHo are my brethren?” Jesus turns and points to his disciples and replies “They who obey my father are my brethren” So Jesus defines the peramiters of who should be considered his brethren.
Fred
I read through the Reggie Kelly link that you provided, just to see the other side of the argument.Its a well thought , well structured text , but if i can say this politely, its riddled with unsound exegsis, a lot of assumption and certainly a lot of bias.Its a very complex look at something which has a very clear biblical outline, and that is that Gods elect are those that have come to Him through Christ..Quite simple really.
God Bless.
Onesimus said: “Is there no irony in the fact that some believe Israel has been disowned by God because of their disobedience – and yet the “church” that has supposedly replaced them is no less pitiful and sinful than the Israel that God is claimed to have abandoned?”
Great point and great wisdom my brother. Just like in Israel in the days of Jesus and the Apostles, there was only a remnant of Jews saved, “for not all of Israel are Israel”, Romans 9:6. So too, in the “church”, most are on the broad road, and only a remnant will be saved.
Jesus said only those doing the will of God abides forever (Matt. 7). God’s will is that sinners (Jew and Gentile) come to Christ and apply His death to their sins and be reconciled. Many churches are ichabod. Look at Jesus’ messages to the seven churches and how He warned them that He would take away their lampstand and vomit them out if they did not repent and be faithful witnesses.
Onesimus said: “Is there no irony in the fact that the theology of some has transferred the blessings of obedient Israel to the church – and yet they are reluctant to equally transfer the curses promised to a disobedient Israel?”
There is no reluctance on my part my good brother.
Onesimus said: “Is there no irony in the confidence of some Christians, that God will remain faithful to them – while their doctrine accuses God of abandoning Israel in direct contradiction of His covenant with Israel?”
The promises to Abraham are based on faith whether Jew or Gentile. God is no Respector of persons or nationality any longer.
Romans 4:13 “For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect.”
Galatians 3: “6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
10 “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse.” (whether Jew or Christian).
13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us.” (only those redeemed by Christ can escape the curse whether Jew or Gentile or church member.)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
There are only two people, the saved and the lost, the wheat and the tares, those who repent, believe in Christ and are baptized and those who don’t. There are only two gates, two roads and two destinies. Everyone is either a sheep or goat. Only those putting their trust in Jesus and His shed blood will be forgiven by God and reconciled, whether Jew or Gentile. Only those who belong to Christ are the true seed of Abraham and only rightful heirs.
Galatians 4: 22 “For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.”
This is what Paul told the Jews of his generation. Nothing has changed. Anyone not in Christ is under the curse whether Jew, Gentile or professing church member.
Romans 9:30 “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: “ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Romans 10:12 “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
“The 144,000 will go preaching from Petra” LOL. Not original, and NOT scriptural. http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp46.htm is faulty and is guilty of isigesis.
A) The genealogies were destroyed after Christ
B) The “virginal” aspect of these is not a physical one.
“14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb wherever He goes.” The word for “virgin” here is parthenos – which always means a woman or girl. Strong’s Number: 3933.
And where are they?
“14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand”.
This is a topic which the Holy Spirit can illuminate on. Not men.
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one-si-mus said “while their doctrine accuses God of abandoning Israel in direct contradiction of His covenant with Israel?”
The covenant was with the Syrian, Abraham, and his SPIRITUAL descendants. Sheesh. Go read Galatians.
Jesus adressed this.
In John
8:33 They answered Him, We are Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man.” (what about the 70 years, or in Egypt, or Caesar? lol)
8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 8:34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 8:36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
8:37 I know that you are Abraham’s seed; but you seek to kill me, because My word has no place in you.
8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do that which you have seen with your father.
8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
8:40 But now you seek to kill Me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
8:41 You do the deeds of your father. Then said they to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me.
8:43 Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.
8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
They did not like that:
8:59 Then they picked up paving stones to stone Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.”
Their are physical descendants of Abraham, and SPIRITUAL sons (includes females)
——————–
Was Abraham Syrian? Or Jewish lol. He came from Iraq/Syria. Shem’s descendants are the Middle East peoples.
Deut.
26:4 And the priest shall take the basket out of your hand, and set it down before the altar of the LORD your God.
26:5 And you shall say before the LORD your God, “A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
26:6 And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage:
26:7 And when we cried unto the LORD God of our fathers, the LORD heard our voice, and looked on our affliction, and our labour, and our oppression:
26:8 And the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders:
Vince – see comments 5 and 14. The temple Ezekiel saw is that of the millenium, built by Messiah Himself, not the third temple which we presume will be destroyed as (i) defiled and (ii) never built at God’s command in the first place, although acknowledged by Him as a temple as our Lord acknowledged Herod’s.
Blessings
Excellent points (#101), onesimus!
Laws wrote:
1. Please stop calling the proposed temple the “third” one, please count correctly. Search Psalms for temple; it pre-dated Solomon’s. And Herod’s was # 4.
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I must inform you that there was no Temple prior to Solomon’s reign. Scripture tells us that due to David’s bloodshed, he would be prevented from building God’s Temple, but that the responsibility would fall to his son, Solomon. That’s not a matter of interpretation, but a literal fact.
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Laws wrote:
2. I can’t believe the fact that people just can’t understand the clear, simple teaching of scripture! I suppose it is because they just rely on fictitious writings of Hal Lindsay, Tim F. LaHaye etc.
——————————————————–
I couldn’t agree more! I just can’t believe it, either! I also can’t believe the arrogance displayed and assumptions being made, such as, making the blanket statement, “I suppose it is because THEY just rely on ficticious writings of Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, etc.” Maybe, just maybe, it is due to their own independent study of Scripture. The possiblity is conceivable, you know!
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And finally, as for your demeaning assertion of “Theology kindergarton stuff,” Henry Mankow, whom you look to as a kind of apostle of this debunked doctrine, would never get out of kindergarten based upon his erroneous and preconceived bias to Scripture. In fact, and I do mean, IN FACT, his doctrinal beliefs are far more in line with Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” than the Scriptures.
So many references being made about Israel/Jews rejecting Jesus and therefore God taking His blessing away from them and replacing them with the church. Could those who are making those claims answer this?
– Who were the members of the church in the beginning of the church’s history?
– Who were those first converts on the day of pentecost (numbering 3,000)?
– Who were the majority of the members of the church right up to the time of Stephen’s martyrdom? Those early occasions that people like to cite regarding great numbers being added to the church. All of those great examples of the early church’s success – they all centre on a JEWISH church!!!
They were JEWS – they were ISRAEL. They were the remnant who God has NOT forsaken. The church has been grafted into the same root as that remnant and we are secure only as long as we remain faithful and obedient: otherwise we can easily be cut off that root.
That remnant still remains. God has not forsaken Israel. The WHOLE book of Romans was written to get that point across – culminating in Romans 11:
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Unfortunately many choose to remain ignorant of “this mystery” and have become conceited.
BB wrote:
Thanks for this Fred. It helps to crystalize the interpretation of what exactly is believed will happen by those believing this. If this temple is only allowed to be built to deceive, will it still stand and be used after Jesus returns? If you believe in a millennial reign of Jesus on earth, will the same temple be there and will it be used?
You state that a third temple will be built according to last day prophecy. Could you share with me where that prophecy is located?
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BB,
The issues that are being addressed here is only one of many, over countless generations, which have been discussed, debated over, and to the Church’s shame, to the extent men have killed each other over. Genuine men and women of God have disagreed over a variety of “end-time” issues, so I would not presume that anyone would necessarily be swayed by anything I might say on this blog. Even the “best” of us are “looking through a glass darkly” and ultimately, each one needs to “be fully convinced in their own minds.”
However, if it at least provokes some to “think on these things” and to invest in further examination for themselves, then it will have served some redemptive purpose. Let me also say, that for me personally, if this were merely an exercise in theological debate, I could think of far more spiritually profitable things to do with my time. But, this issue, along with other related issues, are a matter of spiritual and physical life and death.
I think it is important, as you say, to make an honest effort to “crystalize the interpretation” so that even if someone is in disagreement, it will diminish the chances of that disagreement being due to misunderstanding what is being presented or in talking past each other. And if further clarification is needed, then it is certainly reasonable to dignify the brother or sister with meeting that request.
Let me attempt to respond to your questions as succinctly as I can, without writing a thesis. In th e past I have written pages worth of qualifiers to support these points, but won’t burden with you and the readership with that presently. I just want to provide enough so that, aside from whatever your doctrinal persuasion, that it will hopefully be clear that these beliefs are not based upon preconceived notions or soulish emotion.
Over nearly 40 years, I have been exposed to just about
“every wind of doctrine” and that very much includes all views of eschatology. That’s not to give the impression that I have this thing all figured out by a longshot, but just to say that I am not a product of any particular school of thought. Early on in my spiritual walk, I decided that in the midst of being bombarded by the various beliefs, I needed to take a giant step backward and examine the Scriptures for myself, in the spirit of a true Berean.
Now, in answer to your first question, based upon the premise of a literal Millennium, NO, I do not believe this rebuilt temple will be used, or even exist, into the Millennium. In fact, I fully expect it to be utterly obliterated and every vestige removed at the very end of the Tribulation. Christ will reign in Jerusalem and nations will come to worship in Jerusalem, but without a trace of the previous abominations which took place.
As for your second question, let me share Scripture based upon what I believe to be a reasonable assumption that in order for the Beast or antichrist to take his seat in the Temple and fulfill the “abomination which makes desolate.. in the holy place,” it must take place in reconstituted “holy of holies” within a rebuilt in Jerusalem. II Thess. 2:3-4, Dan. 9:27, 11:31-32, 12:11, Mat. 24:15, Rev. 13:1-8.
I recognize that I have provided merely snippets in reference to these views, but I would base my any view upon a single passage, but for me, must be consistent with the weight of Scripture and within the context of God’s eternal purposes and his expressed process towards that end. This is how I frame and interpret virtually all doctrine, and not by the all-too common approach of interpreting passages in isolation of the weight of Scripture.
As T. Austin-Sparks taught, “God’s ends are always present in His beginnings.” With that in mind, the questions which I believe must serve as the impetus to Scriptural inquiry and interpretation are, in so many words, “What was, and is, God’s original and ultimate purpose?” And second, “By what process has God devised, as revealed in His Word, in order to fulfill those purposes?
Well, I’ll leave it at that for now. If I were engaged in a full-fledged debate, I would pull out all the stops. But, winning a technical debate is not my objective, but rather that Godly men and women would consider and examine these things with the attitude of a Berean, along with the spirit of “the tribe of Issachar, men who understood the times and knew what Israel was to do.” It’s so much more than about technically correct doctrine, but so that with increased understanding, we might better able to “serve the purpose of God in our generation.”
you have made mention of what happened to all the curses that are spoken of. The New Testament alone contains some frightening curses. The question is why do you not know what happened to them? Every born again believer immediately knows! Please seek the answer.
You made mention that most of the first century Believers were Jews. I do not hear anyone argue with that. The question is who and what is the church grafted into?
Is the church grafted back into Judaism?… NO
Is the church grafted back into Physical Israel ?….NO
Is the church a new entity?…..YES
Lets look at this answer from Romans 11:
Who are the branches?
Wild –Gentiles. Jews are natural. No argument there. Both are branches.
Both see themselves broken of. One is grafted in and the other broken off. NO argument there.
NOW the question is.. What and who is the root of the vine (romans 11 verse 16/ 18/ 24).
There is no real mystery here.
“For if the first fruits be holy the LUMP IS ALSO HOLY. If the root be holy so is the branches”
“Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou barest not the root, but THE ROOT THEE”
“For if thou wast cut of by nature from the olive tree which is wild by nature and was grafted contrary to nature into the good olive tree. How much more shall these which by natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree…”
We see the description of the root of the vine..
Its “holy” “Barest the branches” “Own olive tree”
So who or what is the root that is holy and barest the branches and is Jewish in nature?
Does it describe physical Israel or Judaism?
Can the nation of Israel then and now be described as holy and can that entity bare up the branches?
If so can we say that being grafted back into a national physical Israel (Judaist religion) be conducive to scripture? ….NO
In the Old Testament Israel was certainly describes As the vine. Only within her garments can salvation be found. In her was the covenants of promise. But as so many have already stated. Israel was beckoned to the new but did not come. As the husbandmen the vine was given to another nation who will bring forth the right fruits.
Hosea 10:1 “Israel is an empty vine..”
So being grafter back into a physical Israel does not sound too good.
John 15: “I am the true Vine”
By the virtue of a sinless life and perfect sacrifice Jesus steps up to be the true vine. If he is the true what was the false vine? Being grafted into the “TRUE” vine sounds better. Jesus is holy. Jesus is able to bare the root up. He is from the root and of spring of David.. The Messiah. Something which John Hagee would disagree with. Only through Christ are we made HOLY
Ephesians 2: 15 “TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWO ONE NEW MAN SO MAKING PEACE”
We are therefore both Jew and gentile grafted into Christ. Mystery is revealed.
You see as Gentiles we could never be grafted into a natural commonwealth because it never did bare fruit.
The idea that the church “ was a Jewish church” is not disputed because it had Jewish believers, But it was not a church that was some off shoot of Judaism. Or centred around Jewish religious ceremonies which would be connected to circumcision and sacrifices or the like. It is true they met at the temple but their HEARTS WERE NOT IN THE TEMPLE. They no longer would attempt to make sacrifices for sins. Look to a Levite to intercede for them. The temple was a central place for Jerusalem believers to gather. But worship continued from house to house . A big NO NO under the Old Testament temple rituals. Today Judaism is a false religion, which cannot save. Has no temple, no priesthood, no sacrifices to offer. Even if it did have all these, God would not approve. When Jesus died upon that cross a line was drawn between humanity. One side in Christ. The other side outside of Christ. The curses Christ bore upon the cross. This was so we can have the blessings, his sacrifice was the doorway we enter. Temple rituals could never save. Animals could never remove the guilt or stain of sin. CHRIST ALONE SAVES.
So many references being made about Israel/Jews rejecting Jesus and therefore God taking His blessing away from them and replacing them with the church. Could those who are making those claims answer this?
– Who were the members of the church in the beginning of the church’s history?
– Who were those first converts on the day of pentecost (numbering 3,000)?
– Who were the majority of the members of the church right up to the time of Stephen’s martyrdom? Those early occasions that people like to cite regarding great numbers being added to the church. All of those great examples of the early church’s success – they all centre on a JEWISH church!!!
They were JEWS – they were ISRAEL. They were the remnant who God has NOT forsaken. The church has been grafted into the same root as that remnant and we are secure only as long as we remain faithful and obedient: otherwise we can easily be cut off that root. That remnant still remains. God has not forsaken Israel.
Thank you thank you thank you my brother! That is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say on this thread. All you need to do is take a closer look at Romans 11:25,26.
Paul makes this very point you make in Romans 9-11…Not all born of Israel is Israel. As God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Easu, so God chose believers in Messiah Jesus ober those Jews who rejected Messiah Jesus. All those early believers were indeed ALL JEWS. Thousands and thousands of Jews came to believe in Him and receive Him including many priests for several years after Pentecost. God chose these believing Israelites as the true Israel. Paul wrote, “Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the circumcision party! For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.” -Phil. 3:2,3
Jesus said this about the Jews who rejected Him and this was the majority of the nation of Israel. “Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.” Rev. 2:9;3:9. This sounds like the time God chose Joseph over his brothers and told Joseph his brothers would bow at his feet. Isn’t Jesus saying the same thing to the Jews who received Him as Messiah? I think so.
Onesimus said: “The WHOLE book of Romans was written to get that point across – culminating in Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.”
Let’s look at Romans 11 since this sums up the matter in the NT:
(Paul makes the point that it is the remnant of Jews believing in Jesus that continued on as Israel (there is no replacement but a continuation). The rest were cast away and destroyed.)
(Paul teaches that unbelieving Israel has not yet fallen. Notice verse 14 where Paul hopes to at least “save some of them”. Paul is simply telling believers to stop being conceited toward unbelieving Jews since God still desires to “save some of them”.)
(Who are the firstfruit, the lump and the root in v. 16? Paul is referring to those Jews who first believed. Those Jews in Israel who rejected Christ were broken off, and believing gentiles were grafted in their place. Clearly the “olive tree” refers to believing Israelites. Paul is exhorting gentiles to respect the Jews and stop their boasting since they were only grafted in.)
(Paul warns gentiles believers that boast that they can also be cut off IF they do not continue in God’s goodness or grace. This is one of the strongest passages against OSAS, imho.
Note v. 23 carefully. Jews are out of God’s favor because of their unbelief. IF THEY BELIEVE in Jesus they will be grafted in again. Grafted into what???? Grafted into the remnant of those who believed in the first place, namely the ekklesia, the called ones, the church.)
(Paul cannot be referring to ALL THE JEWS in Israel who rejected Christ. He just got done saying that he magnified his ministry in order “to save some”. All Paul is saying here is that “…so in this way, in this manner, all Israel will be saved.” What way? First blindness, then gentiles being accepted in causing jealousy causing “some of them” to be grafted in again. Paul is not prophesying that ALL ISRAEL will be saved, only the manner God has chosen to continue to save both Jews and Gentiles which leads to Paul extolling the wisdom of God.)
(This passage refers to the first coming of Jesus when He confirmed the covenant by shedding His blood for sins.)
Fred
My short time spent on this site has been invaluable regarding the insight and understanding shed on many and varied topics.My conclusion being that passionate and sometimes bigoted debate is infinitely more beneficial than a lambs to the slaughter style of doctrinal acceptance practiced by the majority of the church today, a practice that will surely condemn many to an eternity without God.However , i just wanted to commend you on your gracious and wise contributions on this site as they have challenged me about the very way in which i respond to others.We don’t agree on some issues here, but greater is He that unites us than he that seeks to divide us.Thanks again.
As for your second question, let me share Scripture based upon what I believe to be a reasonable assumption that in order for the Beast or antichrist to take his seat in the Temple and fulfill the “abomination which makes desolate.. in the holy place,” it must take place in reconstituted “holy of holies” within a rebuilt in Jerusalem. II Thess. 2:3-4, Dan. 9:27, 11:31-32, 12:11, Mat. 24:15, Rev. 13:1-8.
Thanks for your explanation Fred. You have used the same Scriptures others use to support the notion that there will be another Jewish temple where the antichrist will sit.
I believe the problem, as I see it, is that there are those who take the seventieth week and separate it from the other 69 weeks in the 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9. I believe exegetically it can be shown that it is Jesus who confirms the covenant and is cut off in the midst of the week. The only other possibility is the person being Titus who never confirmed a covenant with the Jews.
There is no justification for separating the last week from the other weeks so the “He” who confirms the covenant has to be Jesus and not a future antichrist. A 2000 year gap is four times as long as the original prophecy of 490 years. That doesn’t jive and I don’t believe intended by God.
The passage in 2Thess.2 cannot refer to a literal sitting in a literal temple since no one ever has sat in the temple to begin with. Priests went in and out, but never sat there. Only the Shekinah Glory of God “sat” in the holy of holies in the Temple.
I believe Paul is simply referring to someone who will assume the authority that belongs only to God and claim to speak for God. I further believe that the people of God are the temple built for a habitation of God, Eph. 2:20ff. So this lawless one will arise in the church to deceive those who love not the truth with a strong delusion. He is called “the son of perdition” which is what Judas was called.
The Reformers identified this ‘man of sin’ as the Pope. He sits in the place of God as the Vicar of Christ. Christ told us that the only One who would take His place on earth would be the Holy Spirit of God. The Pope has taken His place. See this excellent article by a former Dominican priest, Richard Bennett. It’s the first one:
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles.php?link=?name=Articles
The Pope is still in the church deceiving the majority of Christians into listening to him as God’s representative on earth. Because of the Popes there has been a great falling away from the truths of Scripture and the gospel of the grace of God.
I too think it highly important that the church not look to a Jewish Temple where the antichrist is to sit. He is already sitting in our midst.
fred london says there was no temple prior to Solomon’s monstrousity (built by a debauched serial adulterer/idolater, with whom God was NOT pleased; who disobeyed the Law by having more than one wife and having chariots, who worshipped satan, who heralded in the destruction of the kingdom of Isarel, which really only lasted a few years under David as a theocracy).
Check your bible!
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In Psalms – Of David, not Solomon
5:7 But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy: and in Your fear will I worship toward Your holy temple.
11:4 The LORD is in His holy temple.
18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of His temple.
27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
29:9 The voice of the LORD make the hinds to calve, and discovers the forests: and in His temple every one speaks of His glory.
48:9 We have thought of Your lovingkindness, O God, in the midst of Your temple.
65:4 Blessed is the man whom You choose, and cause to approach unto You, that he may dwell in Your courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, even of Your holy temple.
68:29 Because of Your temple at Jerusalem shall kings bring presents unto You.
79:1O God, the heathen have come into Your inheritance; Your holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple.
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As the house of God
5:7 But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy.
26:8 LORD, I have loved the habitation of Your house, and the place where Your honour dwells.
36:8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the blessing of Your house.
66:13 I will go into Your house with burnt offerings: I will pay You my vows.
84:1 How amiable are Your tabernacles, O LORD of hosts!
84:2 My soul longs, yea, even faints for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh cries out for the living God.
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1 Samuel
1:9 So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
3:2 And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see;
3:3 And before the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was.
2 Samuel
22:7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and He did hear my voice out of His temple.
God.
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Never hear of the 24/7 worship that went on DURING THE REIGN OF DAVID in the temple of David under Asaph? No, I thought not. Nor the songs of degrees which were accented by each step as they ascended to the temple, under David?
In Acts
James stated
15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up.”
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“But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
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zionist “Christians” are NOT Christians at all.
So many miss Zechariah 14 in this discussion. It gives missing details about what will be, regarding the Tribulation, Temple,(House of the Lord) and the millennium. Read it and find that even during the millenium there will be sacrifices, as shown in the last verse of that chapter. If the House of the Lord is spoken of there, then that means the rebuilt Temple will still stand even during the millenium.
Further, we miss seeing the Jews and the Christians have had different destinies in God’s plan. The Christian believers will live in New Jerusalem, but the now saved Jewish survivors of the Tribulation will live on in Israel in human bodies.
If we cannot see the different destinies of Abraham’s two seeds, there is no making sense of the future. Abraham’s spiritual seed, the Christians, will inhabit New Jerusalem, a 1,500 mile cube that will come down from Heaven. But the physical seed of Abraham, the Jews, will live on in physical bodies.
Why is that so hard to grasp? DavWms
The third temple
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John 2
16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
17And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body.
Acts 7:47-49
47But Solomon built him an house.
48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ephesians 2:20-22
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Zechariah 6:12-14
12And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: (not the Jews, the messiah Jesus!!)
13Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Here the second temple is being built, but the glory departed from the first and did not return to the second temple, tho it was blessed by God. It stood until the latter temple foundation was laid by Jesus Christ thru his apostles on his cornerstone, whom he would fill with his glory. His glory is the holy spirit.
Haggai 2
1In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, came the word of the LORD by the prophet Haggai, saying,
2Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and to the residue of the people, saying,
3Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do ye see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?
4Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, saith the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all ye people of the land, saith the LORD, and work: for I am with you, saith the LORD of hosts:
5According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.
6For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
8The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
9The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts. (see Eph 2:15 below)
I have heard over and over references to a temple being built in Jerusalem. This is deception. We are the temple. Following after Judaism is a stumbling block, because they stumble over Jesus Christ and his cross. Trying to re-establish what he has torn down. I have heard over and over about the Physical Building on Earth by Christians, We are to be building a SPIRITUAL BUILDING IN CHRIST. Souls of men for Christ.
Hear this
Ezekiel 43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
Ephesians 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make IN HIMSELF of twain one new man, so making peace; (see Haggi 2:9 above)
The NEW MAN IS CHIST IN YOU! The Veil removed into the earthly temple
There is no other temple but the one he inhabits now. Let us not attempt to rebuild what God has destroyed.
There is no other temple but the one he inhabits now. Let us not attempt to rebuild what God has destroyed.
It is weird how so many christians think the rebuilding of the temple is a good thing, (even animal sacrifice to be resumed) and must be done for prophecy to be fulfilled. There is a scripture that always comes to mind when I think of the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem….
Gal.2:18-21
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
The Temple the man of sin sits in is your heart. The temple God sits in is your heart.
Anti-Christ is a spirit, The Holy Spirit is a Spirit.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Ok you fall away from the faith, or forsake the land (New Jerusalem/Heavenly City/Jesus Temple)
You have strongholds that exalt themselves over the knowledge of God. You think you are little Gods, even showing yourself as God in your temple.
The man of sin and the son of perdition should have been translated,
The men of sin and the sons of perdition are revealed.
Now think on the Lakeland, Toronto, 3rd temple/hebraic, apostolic movements, and a host of others including Catholic, Angelican and orthodox religious systems establishing their kingdom on earth, and prosperity movements, godliness for gain. They are everything written to the churches in Revelations to forsake.
A GREAT FORSAKING AND FALLING AWAY, THE MEN OF SIN EVIDENT, SITTING ON THE THRONE AND ESTABLISHING THEIR OWN KINGDOMS, NOT CHRIST HOLY TEMPLE OR KINGDOM.
Are you among them? Come out and seperate yourself before the wrath break out on you too.
IT WILL NOT BE BUILT, YOUR STAVES AND THRESHOLDS WILL NOT STAND, EXALT THE HOLY ONE, NOT YOURSELVES!
There is only one foundation that will stand and it isn’t mans.
One way, one name, one mediator, one temple. There is no special salvation plan for the Jews or anyone else. This is it folks.
Who is a Jew? I am, are you?
All prophecy must line up with this. If yours doesn’t you are miss interpreting the scriptures, looking with carnal eyes.
I really know there will be no other earthly temple that the so-called men of sin sit in other than their own filthy hearts.
Just thought I would add a couple scriptures about building the house of the Kingdom on Earth instaed of heaven. How many ministries fall into that statement?
Daniel 4:30
The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Notice the foundation below is on the earth?
Luke 6:49
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great
Now this foundation is on the Rock, Jesus.
Luke 6:48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
No one nees to build another temple in Jerusalem for the apostacy or desolation, it is amongst you now. The Harlot is everywhere and in the midst of you and in some of you.
Are you a Whore or a bride?
Are you a widow or a Bride?
Do you buy anointing from the merchants or did you buy Gold tried in fire?
If I don’t cause too much of an fuss, I am going to purposely stray off course to a certain extent and approach this issue from a different angle. If possible, I would like to make the attempt to illustrate the necessity of interpreting God’s intentions in light of the big picture, His eternal purposes.
Throughout Scripture, from cover to cover, God has revealed his sovereign will through the Divine revelation of His unfolding process towards the redemption of those who would believe. The destinies of both the true Church and redeemed Israel are forever intertwined. And if that be the case, it behooves us to know why this relationship is so critical as it relates to the Church’s obligation to the Jew and their ultimate redemption.
As to the issue at hand, some of you are quite right about the wealth of insight which can be found in Rom. 11. It is certainly an excellent springboard from which to delve deeper into the fuller purposes of God. Frankly, I would rather spend the rest of my days sharing this message with the Church which, I trust, God has cultivated in my heart over the years.
For the sake of time and space, I will purposely omit the majority of Scriptural references and commentary I would ordinarily use to support these views. Of course, I would be more than happy to supply you, or anyone else, with those references and expand upon each point if requested. Additionally, each point made, though brief, is probably worth at least several typewritten pages and about an hour’s worth of verbal teaching per point.
To begin with, Paul stated that he magnified his ministry to the Gentiles in order that the Jews would be provoked to a spiritual jealousy (Rom. 11:14). The Church being all she was called to be is not an end in itself, but a means to an end towards fulfilling her ministry and obligation to provoking the Jews to a godly jealousy, and in doing so, making herself ready for her Bridegroom, even “hastening the day…..” as referred to in II Peter 3:12.
As part of this process, the Church must return to a “simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” She must learn to travel light, so to speak. She must return to her original God-given, Biblical structure of leadership and corporate function. It must be Christ-centered, meaning, He must have preeminence, and not just in lip service. She must become less reliant on man and things. She must prepare to be able to, not only adapt, but even flourish, amidst loss and devastation.
The Church must reject the popular notion of, “Hey, we can be just as good as the world!” The Church was never called to be “just as good as the world.” She was called to be something, someone, totally different from this world, driven by a totally different life source. In fact, it, or rather, she, was literally called to reflect something out of this world. We must remember, Israel’s failings had much to do with her wanting to be “like the other nations.”
As to Israel, there is much to be gleaned from the well-known account of Jesus and His dear friend, Lazarus. Our natural love would have rushed to Lazarus’ side in order to save him from further suffering and death. God’s love does not simply look to the present, but also, and more importantly, to the future, to bring about a desired result, consistent with His eternal purposes, “for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen, are eternal.”
There are times when the thing you love most and hold the most dear must be allowed to enter the crucible in order that, and that is always the operative term, “in order that…” God is always after something, His desired end result, for the personal, corporate, and eternal good. It will bring glory to God through the conformity to His Son which is unreachable apart from the Cross.
Lazarus had to endure suffering and death prior to experiencing resurrection life. “Jesus wept.” He was not insensitive nor indifferent. Contrary, to human nature, he literally loved Lazarus to the point of death. Why? Because, God was after something, far beyond the natural, the temporary. Therefore, with our spiritual eyes, we can see Lazarus as a type of Israel. We then may begin to get a glimpse of how God intends to deal with Israel “in order that” He may ultimately restore her unto Himself. Joseph, another type of Christ, was sold into slavery “in order that…” a mighty nation would be born.
The natural human response of, “Surely, this shall never happen to you,” though well intended, often does not serve the purpose of God. There are countless other Biblical examples to reinforce this point. However, make no mistake, the Abrahamic Covenant of those who would bless or curse Israel is a perpetual spiritual principle which has never changed.
Another holocaust is on the horizon. The Jews will once again be subjected to a persecution of demonic proportions, but neither will the Church be spared from a similar fate. Though the vast majority of Jews reside in other nations, there will yet be another dispersion of Jews from the Land of Israel. They will be brought to a place where they will no longer be able to have confidence in their natural abilities (“make the arm of flesh their strength”).
They will be brought to a place of utter human despair and hopelessness. God will not establish an unrepentant people to take permanent inheritance and possession of His Land. God’s preconditions for this fulfillment is consistent from Genesis onward. You bear the image of God, you possess the Land. You lose the image of God, you lose possession of the Land. Acquire the image of God, you are restored to possession of the Land. And, yes, there are many Scriptural examples to bear this out.
Many will ask, “What about Israel becoming a nation after the Holocaust of World War II?” As a people, what came out from Europe to help establish the nation of Israel was essentially a people who were broke, but not broken in the Scriptural-spiritual sense. This is the true definition of repentance, “a true godly sorrow,” apart from which can never lead to true salvation. We must not confuse worldly sorrow with godly sorrow. Pumping our fists in the air while declaring “never again,” by our own devices does not express the godly repentance spoken of in Scripture. Not until they are ready to declare, “our strength is dried up,” will God be able to truly deliver them by “His might and power.”
Revelation 12 is only one example of the Church’s and Israel’s ultimate destinies being intertwined. In the “end of days,” as the Roman centurion was converted through revelation of who Christ truly was as He subjected Himself to the Cross, so to, will the Jews (Israel who is truly Israel) be converted (circumcised in heart) as they see the Church manifest Christ through their willful subjection to the Cross. Many will manifest Christ through the bearing of their Cross leading to salvation of the Jews, many at the expense of their own lives.
This is where the analogy of Corrie Ten-Boom-type ministry enters in. The true Church, who has made Herself ready, “in simplicity and purity by their devotion to Christ,” will be dispersed throughout the world. They will be as a God-made net intended to catch fish of a Jewish sort. And, it will be a net leading to spiritual deliverance. The Biblically mandated Gentiles’ debt to the Jews, will finally be PAID IN FULL. Then, and only then, will the Jews, who have been circumcised in heart as well as flesh, be restored to the Land for all time. This is consistent with God’s ways, from Genesis to Revelation. To say the least, this is certainly not consistent with the ways of men……but, then again, isn’t that what led to Jesus’ rebuke of Peter? May it not be said of us!
Food for thought.
This whole debate I enjoy watching. I am thankful for the variety of opinions and views. Not all are right. The vision that comes to mind is that of when I was in grade school. This debate reminds me of kids playing in the school yard. There were the good kids all playing well together getting along. There were the geeks. There were the bullies. There were the jocks.
What am I saying? There were cliques. We all need to stop and breathe for a while.
I really did not care for BB beating up on a sister here on this thread. I think an apology is due. Yes I am new here and ignorant of any past history, but all the same it was wrong. I think people are thinking too much of themselves and it is going to blind them. Don’t jump to quickly that people are persecuting you when they may just be trying to correct you. Stop and give a full ear to what they are saying it won’t hurt you to listen and think. If you feel offended or anger rearing up inside you, stop and question where it is coming from before you belt out some abuse to each other.
Remember WE are all children here before GOD and we should take correction from each other with patience, less Daddy should here the ruckus and come down here and correct us HIMSELF
God Bless and go read JOB especially where GOD does answer him!
Some Christians groups are very caught up with helping God fulfil His prophecies.I get excited by it all, but am not sure if it is the right thing to do. I think the truth is He did not ask the church to help nor does He depend upon our assistance to ensure all He said will come to pass.Also those ‘helping’ to fulfil these prophecies are doing it based on their interpretations of the details of these end times events.Again we are not completely certain about the details of endtimes (only God knows the details), so we can be a hindrance than help, like the Jews thought The Saviour will come as the conquering King instead of God’s sacrifice on calvary.However, there are many other things that God command us to fulfil and that includes the Great Commission and lots of other commands in His word which we often fail to obey.
Amen, James!
SDG
James
Most Xns are so EBS (emotional belief system) oriented that the TRUE doctrine from the Word (Jesus) confounds and confuses them, as they have been taught error vs the Truth of God -the Word.
Hosea 10:1 “Israel is an empty vine..”
So being grafted back into a physical Israel does not sound too good.”
lol
Yes, Abraham is the chief human patriarch to the SPIRITUAL descendants – not the ones who adopt talmudic judaism.
another good one “But, winning a technical debate is not my objective.”
Nor can it be.
the Word of God is right, not some carnal opinion.
Brethren, the third temple, often called Ezekiel’s temple, was a “conditional” prophecy for that time IF the Jews would turn from their sins, which they did not. Read about it, that temple centered around animal sacrifice.
What the Apostle Paul was saying about the Antichrist figure is that IF he could he would sit in the temple of God as God, because that is his desire (His “tabernacle” will not be the holy temple of God.), but your body is now the temple of God and the only other one is the original one, which is in Heaven where Christ is our High Priest. Remember what Peter said about Paul’s epistles, “some things hard to be understood in which some wrest to there own destruction”.
The 70th week is broken up in two parts, the first 3 and one half years were Christ’ ministry to his death and the second half is the 3 and one half years of the Great Tribulation, in which the covenant will finish being confirmed by His two witnesses. (It’s a Time Jump.)
Last, it was Christ Who caused the “sacrifice and oblation to cease” by His Death and the “abomination of desolation” or “the abomination that maketh desolate” was the continued animal sacrifices after His crucifixion by the now desolate Jews.
One or Two Peoples of God? Reflections on the Mystery of Israel and the Church
http://www.zcpress.org/reggiekelly/Articles/One_or_Two_Peoples_HOME.html
BB. OK so now you’ve nailed your colours to the A-Millenial mast your position is clear. Clearly in error.
If you’re in the majority who adopt this persuasion, you reject the millenium altogether as it is only figurative and
thus you reject a literal interpretation of Rev20. The two resurrections spoken of in Acts24:15 are separated by 1000yrs per Rev 20:5/6. You must obviously reject this and assume only one resurrection?
This is notably a Catholic teaching first postulated by St.Augustine which holds no future for Israel and sees all O.T. prophecy over Israel channelled to the church through whom they will be fulfilled. (Given the fundemental heresies of the Catholic religion that alone should sound the alarm.) Thus you hold to Replacement theology. What a crock!
This argument is patently false as throughout the N.T. there are over 70 references to Israel and NOT ONE can be construed as the “church”. Throughout the N.T. Israel & the church are treated as distinct from one another. God promised them the land forever. Though they may forfeit for a time,He would bring them back.
As stated before, Rom 9-11 clearly teaches that though Israel rejected God,He did not reject them. Thankfully neither God nor His word promotes DIVORCE which is what you would have us believe happened to Israel.
When the disciples asked Jesus “when will the Kingdom be restored to Israel” (Acts 1) were you right in your opinion,
He would have put them straight. However He received it as a VALID question replying “it was not for them to know” which clearly infers it was right they should expect it some day.
This debate strikes at the very heart of our understanding of God. Clearly in your world He is not as “good as His word” given that He can so readily break it.
If I learned anything over the past 40years it is to beware the “majority” view.
Jesus said in Mt24 “many” would be deceived and the love of “most” would grow cold.
For those gentile believers who would claim that they are the true Jews through faith in Christ and now replace Israel,Jesus reserved some very strong words. Rev 2:9,3:9.
Robert: Did you see her post attacking my character?
Richard: I could just as easily say you are in error. So let us leave it there, grab a cookie and praise Him who conquered and is coming soon.
There never, ever again will be animal sacrifice as a symbol of atonement for sins, acceptable to God, again. The idea that Yeshua (THE Lamb of God) ruling the nations from Jerusalem will have/allow people (physical Jew or otherwise) offering animal sacrifices, is absurd.
I agree that if you try and hang your hat on just Zech 14, the last verse, that it “seems” that there will be “animal” sacrifices, but read the verse very carefully and it is not animals in a temple that are the sacrifices he is “prophesying” about, although that may be the kind of sacrifice that Zechariah’s mind was centered on. God does not contradict His Self and His Word is not a book of confusion. What I see a lot on this Site and others is that we each are “clinging” to some verses, but if my understanding or interpretation of some Holy Scripture is contradicting other Holy Scripture – then my understanding is wrong.
I offer the above not to be critical of anyone, but as a warning to myself and everyone. We indeed do see through a glass darkly, now. But remember that love (charity) of God and brotherly love are greater than prophecy or anything else.
Fred
My short time spent on this site has been invaluable regarding the insight and understanding shed on many and varied topics.My conclusion being that passionate and sometimes bigoted debate is infinitely more beneficial than a lambs to the slaughter style of doctrinal acceptance practiced by the majority of the church today, a practice that will surely condemn many to an eternity without God.However , i just wanted to commend you on your gracious and wise contributions on this site as they have challenged me about the very way in which i respond to others.We don’t agree on some issues here, but greater is He that unites us than he that seeks to divide us.Thanks again.
Comment by ray | July 2, 2009
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Ray,
Thank you for your kind remarks. One of my many concerns is the lack of spiritual and doctrinal discernment. I am very much a “process” man. By that I mean what I refer to as “spiritual critical thinking,” which is an integral part of doctrinal discernment. If the process is sound, chances are that you will arive at the right answer or result. Conversely, if the process is faulty, or nonexistent altogether, as has been the increasing case in this generation, chances are that you will arrive at something filled with error.
Next to the Holy Spirit, the best interpreter of Scripture is the Scripture itself. However, when a person reads a particular passage and spend the next hour trying to explain and convince as to what that passage means, their so-called understanding and credibility quickly comes into question.
Much of Jesus’ teaching style, with His disciples as well as with the multitudes and religious leaders of His day, involved interaction initiated by questions. This is very Hebraic as opposed to the predominant Greek style of one-way lecture. So often, we see Jesus answering a question with a question.
This is how Jesus intiated and stimulated spiritual thought and dialogue. It should never be about debate simply for debate’s sake, but as a means to an end in exposing and arriving at Truth. Paul said that there are “those who are forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.”
This process also has a way of exposing the true motives of such discussions as Jesus so often did as recorded in the Gospels. Some engage in these discussions, not for the sincere sake of pursuit of the Truth, but rather for the attempted sake of “entrapment.” “For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Proverbs 27:17 says, “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another man.” There is a vast difference between discipleship and indoctrination. Some engage in such discussions with the more profitable motive of encouraging a mutual examination of the Truth. Others simply engage in indoctrination, having no intention of participating in mutual examination, but in imposing their own agenda, which can border, or even blatantly trespass, into cultishness.
True discipleship encourages the process of spiritual
“sharpening,” whereas indoctrination produces a “dulling” effect due to the act of bludgeoning into submission by way of attack, ridicule, and humiliation. But, it is foolish to think that any will be persuaded using that approach. As Proverbs says, “The words of the wise makes knowledge acceptable.”
Once again, Ray, I appreciate your thoughtful comments.
Paul wrote:
Brethren, the third temple, often called Ezekiel’s temple, was a “conditional” prophecy for that time IF the Jews would turn from their sins, which they did not. Read about it, that temple centered around animal sacrifice.
What the Apostle Paul was saying about the Antichrist figure is that IF he could he would sit in the temple of God as God, because that is his desire (His “tabernacle” will not be the holy temple of God.), but your body is now the temple of God and the only other one is the original one, which is in Heaven where Christ is our High Priest. Remember what Peter said about Paul’s epistles, “some things hard to be understood in which some wrest to there own destruction”.
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Paul,
I would argue that you may be inserting “IF’s” in both of your paragraphs where they do not literally or legitimately belong. The third temple will be built and function apart from God’s ways, except to the extent that God intends on using this reinstituttion as a means to an end in accomplishing His purposes, just as the current nation of Israel in the Land does not meet the Biblical criteria for the “Final Return.” But, is a crucial step in God’s means to an end in the process of Israel’s ultimate redemption.
Also, for proper understanding of Peter’s quote concerning Paul’s teaching, you need to express the literal thought in its entirety, “in which are some things hard to understand, WHICH THE UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE DISTORT, AS THEY DO ALSO THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction.”
Quite often, when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, we need not seek any other sense. Therefore, we should exercise great care in adding or detracting from what is literally written.
BB wrote:
The passage in 2Thess.2 cannot refer to a literal sitting in a literal temple since no one ever has sat in the temple to begin with. Priests went in and out, but never sat there. Only the Shekinah Glory of God “sat” in the holy of holies in the Temple.
I believe Paul is simply referring to someone who will assume the authority that belongs only to God and claim to speak for God. I further believe that the people of God are the temple built for a habitation of God, Eph. 2:20ff. So this lawless one will arise in the church to deceive those who love not the truth with a strong delusion. He is called “the son of perdition” which is what Judas was called.
The Reformers identified this ‘man of sin’ as the Pope. He sits in the place of God as the Vicar of Christ. Christ told us that the only One who would take His place on earth would be the Holy Spirit of God. The Pope has taken His place. See this excellent article by a former Dominican priest, Richard Bennett. It’s the first one:
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles.php?link=?name=Articles
The Pope is still in the church deceiving the majority of Christians into listening to him as God’s representative on earth. Because of the Popes there has been a great falling away from the truths of Scripture and the gospel of the grace of God.
I too think it highly important that the church not look to a Jewish Temple where the antichrist is to sit. He is already sitting in our midst.
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BB,
I think where people run into interpretive trouble is not diciphering between literal and symbolic meaning, and spiritualizing where there is no reason or an alert given that God is speaking in metaphors rather than in a literal sense. For me, in reference to the “man of sin” being seated in the temple which causes the abomination of desolation, the text and context is a very literal description. I believe that the Scriptures clearly distinguish between a physical temple in an eschatological context and a spiritual temple representing the Body of Christ.
Furthermore, this “man of sin” is the fulness of sin, “the mystery of iniquity revealed” in bodily form, is the very antithesis of Jesus being the “fulness of deity in bodily form.” As a rule, Old and New Testmanet included, God typically makes it clear when He is speaking in metaphors, and then immediately follows with the interpretation. In the Gospels, when Jesus spoke in a parable, He plainly said, “Behold, I speak in a parable” and then would go on to explain the meaning of the parable. When Paul would speak of the various “mysteries” in the Kingdom, he would elaborate as to what that particular mystery was, “Christ, Church, iniquity, etc.
Also, during the course of Biblical history, there are many mysteries or secrets still awaiting to be revealed or fulfilled according to God’s timing. what I am saying is that just because something has never occurred to date, per your assertion, “no one has ever sat in the temple to begin with,” does not mean that God has not reserved such an event for future purposes. For example, the Lord’s coming in the clouds has never happened before. Does that mean that it cannot happen in the future? “It is the glory of the Lord to conceal a matter.”
Let me conclude by saying that since my earliest days in the Lord, I have been well aware that the Roman Catholic Church has been the convenient recipient of various anitchrist characterisitcs and accusations. However, in my view, these interpretations are a severe stretch of imagination and conjecture beyond Scriptural measure. But, further elaboration on that is for another time.
Jeri Quinty wrote:
The man of sin and the son of perdition should have been translated,
The men of sin and the sons of perdition are revealed.
I have heard over and over references to a temple being built in Jerusalem. This is deception. We are the temple. Following after Judaism is a stumbling block, because they stumble over Jesus Christ and his cross. Trying to re-establish what he has torn down. I have heard over and over about the Physical Building on Earth by Christians, We are to be building a SPIRITUAL BUILDING IN CHRIST. Souls of men for Christ.
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Jeri,
Your assertion that “man” and “son” should be translated “men” and “sons” is completely inaccurate. I’m not sure where you came up with that translation, but in the original Greek, both terms are in the singular, not plural.
Secondly, your sort of mixing apples with oranges in reference to the Temple. There is a spiritual temple and there is a physical temple. Virtually every time this term is mentioned in Scripture, it makes it very clear as to whether it is speaking of the spiritual or the physical.
Furthermore, The third temple will have absolutely nothing to do with God’s plan of salvation. It is part of the end-time deception but it is important to recognize that it is also according to God’s ultimate plan at the end of the age.
God has been quite exact concerning the “man of sin,” and this is precisely how the “man of sin” will be revealed for who and what he is as he physically takes his seat in the holy of holies in the litersl temple, claiming himself to be God, which is the only act which qualifies as “the abomination which makes desolate” spoken of in Daniel, and repeated by Jesus, Himself.
The key is “declaring himself to be God” when he takes his seat in the temple. That is the ultimate abomination. It is with good reason the Scripture accompanies this verse with the statement, “Let the reader understand.”
Richard
For those gentile believers who would claim that they are the true Jews through faith in Christ and now replace Israel, Jesus reserved some very strong words , Rev 2:9,3:9
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Obviously you are not reading any of the responses posted on this thread, and i suspect you are not reading the bible either.
Read Hebrews 11 ,and pay particular attention to verse 39
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that THEY should not be made perfect APART from us
Richard, there is only one Israel, that is , the children of the promise.There is also only one temple , that is the Temple of His Body.Amen
Richard you say “God promised them the land forever. Though they may forfeit for a time,He would bring them back”
It is accepted by most that a restored Israel is prophecied. For he will take them from the nations and restore them to the land. BUT as we know the Israel that now exists is fundamentaly restored in unbelief. Whose teachings such as the TALMUND is their main religious teaching.
The Talmund is a blasphemous demonic piece of writings upon which the Jews can kill a palestinian, Moslem or Christian and feel no guilt about it.
People I belief have come to some sort of revelation that a restored Israel is a people restored to their God. Not so! The belief that a physical Israel will inherit the physical land of Palestine for “EVER” simply does not exist. A quick glance at Revelation speak about a New Heaven and New Earth. Where will the nations go? But before the great white throne judgement. In fact the only people who will inherit the land are those who are connected to the New Jerusalem. The church of the redeemed.
So for a JEW or Gentile to find AN INHERITANCE IT HAS TO BE IN THE CHURCH. CHRISTS BODY.
It is interesting that some continue to speak about the church as only a gentile structure. Has someone accidently ommited all the Jewish believers who are part of the church?
We need to get away from the idea that some gentile thought up the church. The church is composed of all believers Jew and gentile who are saved by faith in Christ. There is NO other foundation. If the physical unbelieving Jews are to find a place were then will they find it?
Do we honestly believed that physcial Israel is going to spend the rest of eternity in some seperate (paradise earth). The church above and physical Israel below. That is what is known as dual covenant. It does not exist. They will only enter in through Christ and salvation. In fact can we honestly envision a Physical Jewish race living forever without entering into Christs own salvation? Sounds like HELL to me. Lets take some pity and proclaim their needs of Jesus and get them saved.
Whilst it is true the Jews as a people (nation) will live in a restored Israel during the Millenium with their messiah. But the prophecy is that he will restore them and then saved them.
Ezekiel 37 about the Dry bones Verse 14 says “I will put my Spirit in you and ye shall live, and I shall place them you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the Lord have spoken it….”
Notice the words “I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU”
THIS SPEAKS ABOUT A SPIRITUAL BIRTH. Verse 26-27 “Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set my sactuary in the midst of them for evermore. My Tabernacle also shall be with them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people”
Again what covenant is God speaking about? Clearly NOT THE OLD which passes away. Although it was holy it has no power to change the lives it spoke to. There is only one covenant that CAN SAVE, AND BRING PEACE BETWEEN GOD AND MAN. The whole theme “I will be their God and they will be my people” finds only one expression…1 Peter 2:10
In fact a carefull word search continualy brings out this theme. “I will be their God and they will be my people.” So Gods fulfillement is a church of redeemed souls who find their place in Christ. THE MILLENIUM WILL FINISH WITH ONE LAST GREAT REBELION. The land that now constitutes Israel (Palestine) will vanish by fire. That is not the paradise promised. But a new heaven and earth. During the millenuim Jesus will rule with a rod of Iron. Will this rule be for the Gentiles only or for Jew also? Jesus alone knows who will truly embrace him during this period and who will finaly reject him.
For those who envisioned a physical Israel unredeemed and in rebelion being welcomed back under covenant (of what is unknowned) does injustice to Gods righteousness and the death paid for by Jesus. To tell a Jew that he is still Gods covenant people will find no arguement from the Jew. who will sit back in his chair and declare “Who am I to argue with that statement”. But preach the sermon Peter gave in Acts. That he is lost and in danger of judgement. Then we will be preaching the truth. Then he just might listen and cry out ” what must I do to be saved ”
As for Gentile believers (Please do not exclude Jews in this either) being true JEWS see again Romans 2: 28 “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly. Neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, and in the spirit. Not in the letter whose praise is not of men but of God” Romans 9 :7 “Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children. But in Issace shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God. But the Children of promise are counted as seed.”
WE brethren are that seed. Gal 4: 28 ” Now we brethren as Issac was, are the Children of Promise”
Now please forgive me if I have got people wrong. But I get the impression that some would like to keep physical Israel in the same state they are now. But tell them its all right..With a quick wink and a nod. “You are in”. But the truth is they are not in. They are lost in need of salvation. WHY OH WHY would anyone want to keep them from such a great salvation offered to them by Christ?
Thank you Richard for your comments above.
The issue of the Millennium has been addressed on another thread here:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/lets-talk-about-the-millenium/
It seems like amillennialism and replacement theology tend to go hand-in-hand. Both deny the truth revealed by most of the OT prophets as well as a great deal of NT teaching and prophecy.
BB:
My reference to the Jewish origins of the church were in no way intended to deny the importance of Israel in God’s current and future plans. I merely pointed out those origins to show that God has not replaced Israel with the church. The church started out as Jewish – but throughout history the incoming gentile members of the church have rebelled against those Jewish roots. Historically this is clearly demonstrated by the replacement of Jewish feast with pagan festivals (e.g. Passover being replaced by Easter) and also through an increasing acceptance of “replacement theology”.
God has not replaced Israel with the church – but the church has tried to push Israel out of God’s plans.
The letter to the Romans addresses the conflict between Gentile and Jewish believers in Rome after Nero allowed Jews to return to the city after earlier being expelled by Claudius (see references to Aquilla & Priscilla in Acts and in Paul’s letters).
The letter to the Romans climaxes in chapters 9- 11 where Paul reveals the future of Israel – that ALL Israel will be saved. This is NOT referring to a mythical “new Israel” that has replaced the natural Israel. Israel has NOT been replaced in God’s affections or in His covenant.
When the NT speaks of Israel it is ALWAYS referring to the natural descendents of Abraham through Jacob. Scripture never refers to the church as being Israel.
I will confess that through ignorance I was heading towards the “replacement theology” route a few years ago. It was caused partly from my observations of Israel today and how parts of the church supported all of political Israel’s actions unconditionally. I find that blind, unconditional support of Israel is no less wrong than the denial of Israel resulting from replacement theology.
My direction was completely changed when I read the following:
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the nations, and they were scattered through the lands. I judged them according to their way and according to their doings.
Eze 36:20 And when they entered the nations where they went, they even profaned My holy name by saying to them, These are the people of the Jehovah, and they are gone out of His land.
Eze 36:21 But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
Eze 36:22 Therefore say to the house of Israel, So says the Lord Jehovah: I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all lands, and will gather you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.
Eze 36:28 And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. And you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
I remember coming upon a discussion between, I believe her name was Billye Brim and Gloria Copland. Billye topic was Israel. She recounted that the gentiles were being drawn to the father via Christ which was Biblical enough. But the Father was drawing the Jews directly to himself. Otherwise without going via Christ. This was nothing short of gross heresy. But her views appear to be what many are embracing. Yet scripture clearly rejects this. It is almost as if the gospel is no longer good enough for the Jews. While this view is not coming from the Jews themselves, but from those who should be advocates of the gospel.
We therefore have “Believers” who appear to distain the blood that Christ shed for all.
Many seem to favour three paths. The wide road that leads to destruction, a narrow road to life with a gentiles only sign, and a third with Jews only inscribed. A third alternative that would exclude a race, yet bestow the privilege of salvation without any repentance or adherence to New Testament teaching. Yet the gospel is for all. That is the good news. Its for both Jew and gentile. I know of Jews and some are my friends who are saved Christians. Should they be told that the gospel is not for them? Its not good enough to save them.
So when Jesus says “I am the way the truth and the life and NO man comes to the Father except by me”
Are we to say “ sorry Jesus, The father has other plans”
If there is NO salvation except via Jesus, then the issue is no longer one of Race or Nationality, but of faith in the finish work of Calvary. A Jew who rejects will inherit the same eternity as a Gentile who rejects. A Jew who accepts will enter with believing Gentiles. To say that Jews as a race have a separate final destiny because they are Jews is nothing short of gross error. For upon what basis can they believe if Christ is not their MESSIAH. What provision exists to cleanse them of their sins. What sacrifice can be offered is the final sacrifice is rejected. It would almost appear that some would refuse the Jews the one basis upon which salvation can be found. It is almost the belief that we should leave them in their sinful condition but feed them a spurious diet. They will be alright just because they are of a particular race called the Jews. What a spurious hope to go out into eternity believing. As Jesus said to Nicodemus a devout believing Jew “You must be born again (John 3). Nicodemus could not depend upon his religious, cultural racial inheritance to see him through. Paul a Jewish scholar of the highest degree could no longer look to his Jewish background and declare it was sufficient enough. But declare that it was a all dung. If we say we love the Jews should we love them enough to tell them the truth about their sinful condition. At the heart of a rebuilding of a Jewish temple has to be the fundamental rejection of all that the New Testament teaches. It must strike at the heart of the gospel and declare that the cross was not sufficient enough. OK for the Gentiles but not the Jews. I can only declare that at the root of this is gross pride.
Fred,
In regards to the “IF” in Ezekiel, it is in Eze 43:11. It seems abundantly clear to me spiritually and scripturally that this was a “conditional” prophecy. As far as the “IF” I put it in quotes for emphasis, perhaps I should have made it just caps. As far as the “IF” I used for 2Th 2:4, I know that it is not literally in that verse, but my point is that the flow of the verse reflects his desire to BE God, and he will think his self to be god; not that he will actually sit in the temple of God, but he will think his self to be sitting in the temple of God Almighty when it is just a tabernacle that he built. In the spirit, this is my understanding of that verse.
As far as the Ezekiel temple, which clearly is laid out for animal sacrifice. I find it almost unbelievable that anyone could think that Yeshua would permit animal sacrifices (HE was the Atonement for sin) to be performed in Jerusalem during His 1000 year reign from Jerusalem. To think that it will be built “apart from God’s ways” seems completely nonsensical to me, but we will see when He returns. I think it is a complete misreading and misunderstanding of the Holy Scriptures.
Again, as far as what I put quotes around in regards to what Peter warned about Paul’s writings, I knew that was not a literal quote; I used the quotes for emphasis of the “idea” of what Peter was saying – sorry. But I am sure my “point” is absolutely valid about how almost all of us think we see, when often we do not see clearly and unwittingly misrepresent God’s Word. I know I am at fault in that also. I always regret it for having misunderstood a Truth when The Spirit shows me my error, but I thank God that He is long-suffering to me.
I can see from all the entries here that many brethren will just have to “agree to disagree” until our LORD returns and we no longer see through that glass darkly.
May Christ bless and strengthen all of His Children.
Onesimus
If all Israel were to be saved, would this not include all jews from at least the time of Pauls declaration of this in Rom 11:26, and maybe even back to the cross?. If only one were to die in sin , then not all would be saved.Is this not a logical way to argue this point?.We can reasonably assume that many Jews have perished in sin over the past millennia, so surely the verse in Rom 11: 26 cannot be attributed to national Israel.I do not recall anyone on this thread asserting that no Jews can partake of the new covenant, and surely , many will in the last days recognize Christ as the true Messiah, for that is their true heritage.
Even the Fathers , Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew that the promise of “land” was not a physical one but a spiritual promise.
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance.
And he went out , not knowing where he was going.
By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise
for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 By faith Sarah herself received strength to conceive seed , and she bore a child when she was past the age , because she judged Him faithful who had promised
12 Therefore from one man , and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude–innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 BUT NOW THEY DESIRE A BETTER , THAT IS , A HEAVENLY COUNTRY.
Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Onesimus , thanks for reproducing the passage in Eze 36 , it saves me having to do it.There are many references in this passage that indicate this is written to the children of the covenant, and yes , the ” land is our spiritual homeland.Hallelujah!!!
James. Sorry but you do seem mightily confused in your reasoning both of individual comments and your basic theological understanding.
There is a “uniqueness” and “permanance” about God’s dealings with Israel which you fail to appreciate.
There are distinctive commands,covenants and promises within the scope of this dispensation, which should not be confused with what is future and eternal.
One needs to distinguish between Messaianic Jews and those
who have rejected Jesus. God has different things to say about each group.
When you make statements like “a quick glance at Revelation”
you demonstrate all too clearly the reason for your confusion. Firstly you cannot come to a full understanding of anything by means of a “quick glance”. Secondly you cannot discern truth without setting the topic in its complete context. This is the most common flaw manifest in much of what is being said,little wonder most lack clarity.
God has not DIVORCED Israel! Ex 38…”I will” “I will”……
Check out Ex37:15/28.
Keep the study going. It will bring its reward in time.
Onesimus, that Scripture in Ezekiel was God’s promise BEFORE the Babylonian captivity of what He would do after the 70 year captivity…..not a promise of something 2500 years later. Thru Daniel, Israel was given 490 years to mend their ways and receive Christ when He came. Only a remnant did.
John the Baptist told the Jews: “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.”
Jesus repeated John’s warning and told the Jews: ““Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. And I say to you, that many shall come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom (the unbelieving Jews) shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Look at what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD. What does that tell us about what God thinks of that city, that land and that temple and those who reject and dishonor His Son? I’ll take God’s actions and words thru John the Baptist, Jesus and the Apostles about what will happen to unbelieving Jews.
I continually hear a call to explain Zech 12-14. There is a clear timeline to me anchored by the clear references to Calvary. Here is how I understand these chapters. I thank you for the push to declare my understanding of these prophecies here. God bless
(Verses 1-9 contains God’s promise to protect the line of Judah BEFORE Jesus came. This is God’s promise to Israel of what He would do for them after the captivity in Babylon…. until the Promised Messiah would come some 400 years later. Verse 7 is a prophecy of God’s Promise to David that the Messiah would come from his seed. God will defend Jerusalem until David’s Son was born to reign. We see these verses reflect the time period before Christ because the next five verses are about the cross.
Verses 10-14 contains a prophecy of the cross and the mourning that would occur for rejecting David’s Son, Jesus. The Apostle John clearly tells us this prophecy was fulfilled at the cross:
John 19:33 “But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.” [a reference to Zech. 12:10]
also:
Luke 23:27 “And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him.”
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The prophecy of the death of the Messiah is continued in Zechariah 13:
Note the reference in verse 4 to the robe of coarse hair. John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets and wore clothes of coarse hair.
Verse 8 and 9 refer to the results of Jesus death. The majority (two thirds) would be ‘cut off’ and be killed for their unfaithfulness to God and the covenant in rejecting His Son. This refers to the destruction that took place in 70 AD. But there would be a remnant of the Jews (one third)who would accept their Savior. They would be refined and tested. Notice that this prophecy plainly declares that those who received Him as Savior would be His people and He would be their God. This refers to the true Jews, the ones believing in His Name. Paul wrote of these Jews who received Him as “the true circumcision”:
Phil. 3:3 “For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh…20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.”
You see there is no “replacement” but a continuation of Israel in those Jews who believed and received Jesus. Two thirds would die but one third would continue on according to this prophecy of Zechariah.
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(This ‘day of the LORD’ is a reference to God’s judgment on Jerusalem for forsaking the covenant and rejecting God’s Son as their Messiah in 70AD. Here is a prophecy of the remnant that would escape the destruction and continue on as God’s people, the true Israel of God -Galatians 6:16. God will always be with His people (believers in Jesus, the true sons of Abraham, to fight for them until He returns.)
(Here the timeline moves to the end when Jesus will come to judge those nations gathered to destroy His true people.)
(Here we see the very end when all is made new and and the LORD is one. John, the Apostle refers to these verses at the end of Revelation and the Bible as a whole:
Revelation 22:1 “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.”
Do you see the references to Zechariah 14 in this final chapter of Revelation?)
(This refers to the New Jerusalem that comes down out of Heaven.)
(Here we see the prophet describing the panic among the lost that will occur at His return. Also this mention of flesh dissolving is a reference to the fire that come from the Lord to destroy them at His return:
2Thess. 2:4 “We ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.”
Since the city was destroyed in 70 AD, the Jerusalem mentioned here is the Jerusalem above that took the place of earthly Jerusalem:
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.”
Paul clearly tells believing Jews and Gentiles that we now belong to the Jerusalem above. When Jesus returns, He will “strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem…above. Here is where literalists miss the interpretation. They continue to see a literal Jerusalem. But Christ is seated above on His throne in the Jerusalem above according to Paul and the current earthly city of Jerusalem according to the Apostle is Hagar…not chosen or the elect of God. The elect are now those Jews chosen by God. They are those who received Jesus.)
(This is a prophecy that all the nations that do not find rest in Jesus will receive the plague of fire that will come from the LORD on the Day of His Return. This cannot refer to the time after the New Jerusalem comes down, since that will end all evil forever and there will be no further plagues or punishment.
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(And isn’t it interesting that the Ethiopian Eunuch is mentioned as coming up to Jerusalem to worship and on the way home the Spirit takes Philip to him to witness about Jesus so the Eunuch can take Jesus, the Living Water, back to Egypt. Acts 8 )
This is how I understand Zechariah 12-14. There is a clear timeline:
Zech 12:1-9 God would defend Judah for 400 years until David’s Son came.
Zech 12:10-14 – 13:9 A prophecy of the cross and mourning.
and the remnant who would believe.
Zech 14 The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and of the very end.
peace and God bless
Israel will not be saved apart from Christ.
Israel WILL be saved when (not if) they recognise Jesus as their Messiah.
Israel’s possession of their promised land will occur (in totality) as promised in God’s covenants.
Israel’s kingdom will be restored and a descendant of David will rule over them from Jerusalem.
A few additional facts:
A temple will be restored in Jerusalem.
That temple is NOT part of God’s redemptive plans for Israel.
The “Man of Lawlessness” will set up his throne in the temple and will exalt himself as God.
Jesus returns to earth with His saints: those dead being raised (through the first resurrection) and those who remain alive on earth being caught up to be with Him and changed as they meet Him in the air.)
The man of Lawlessness will be defeated by Jesus upon His return.
Jesus will set up HIS Kingdom on earth and will reign over the nations as King of Israel. This earthly Kingdom will last for 1000 years.
After the 1000 years will come the second resurrection followed by the Judgement.
The redeemed will live with God in His new creation.
The non-redeemed will be thrown in the lake of fire.
Robert
I suggest that You read AGAIN what I wrote prayerfully!
I am no fool!-I know one day I’ll be accountable to God for every word I speak so I ALWAYS seek the Lord about EVERYTHING I say !
If there is any apology necessary,is to to God from those who deny His Word!
As for what You call “anger” and that people should ask where it comes from,let me answer You question:
There is something called ‘righteous anger” when people make such statements that go totally against the heart of God,such as: that God has replaced Israel!
I am Jewish and I also am a lover of Yeshua!-Reading such ‘blasphemy” doesn’t only cause me to be angry but I know how God feels as well!
That’s why I was bold in what I wrote!
I know His opinion about what I wrote,why don’t You ask God to show You how He feels?
God is no respector of persons!We are the ones who need to choose to be on His side!
His word will never change!
It amazes me that people can change what the Book of reveation says without even considering the warning that God gives us:that if we add or take away a word from that Book that our name will be erased from the Book of Life!
As for what I said, that having visions doesn’t equal intimacy with God,it was the Lord Himself Who gave me that word few years ago!
There has been wars ordained by God and we now that it was God who ordained for the first born in Egyot to be killed and in Ezekiel He ordained for people to be killed as well!
However,that doesn’t mean that we are to make the decision to kill someone even if that person does evil!
God doesn’t need our help!
If He wants,can’t He take the breath away from that person even in his sleep?
Avengence is the Lord’s and even if someone is killing babies,we still don’t have the right to kill that person!What about the babies’s mothers?-After all they are the ones who bring the children inside their wombs for the slaughter!
What about the men who got them pregnant and who have abandoned them?-Should we kill them as well?
Again I say: anyone who rejoices over the assassination of a humanan being is not in touch with the heart of God!
As for You gentiles to whom My God has extended His salvation and who now say that Gd has replaced Israel with You: isn’t it ENOUGH that He had mercy on You?-Do You have to grieve His heart and say that he has replaced Israel?
Remember the words of Paul in Romans 11:39
Don’t boast,let You fall!-If You being the wild branches were grafted into Christ,how much more will He not graft the true branches?
In the Presence of the Lord,the Holy One of Isarel,in the Presence of Yeshua and in the Presence of the Holy Spirit,I stand by every word I said!
May the Name of Yeshua be glorified forever and ever!
Amen!
P.S: I don’t get emails when something is posted for me and I just found Robert’s comment while looking for something else!I also didn’t attack anyione’s character!
What a watchman!
P.S:
I know that in Christ there is no difference between Jew and gentile!
However the question I’m asking is from my Jewish perspective!
I’m being a voice to Israel!
I am speakimg as a daughter of Zion!
fred london says there was no temple prior to Solomon’s monstrousity (built by a debauched serial adulterer/idolater, with whom God was NOT pleased; who disobeyed the Law by having more than one wife and having chariots, who worshipped satan, who heralded in the destruction of the kingdom of Isarel, which really only lasted a few years under David as a theocracy).
Check your bible!
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In Psalms – Of David, not Solomon
5:7 But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy: and in Your fear will I worship toward Your holy temple.
11:4 The LORD is in His holy temple.
18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of His temple.
27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
29:9 The voice of the LORD make the hinds to calve, and discovers the forests: and in His temple every one speaks of His glory.
48:9 We have thought of Your lovingkindness, O God, in the midst of Your temple.
65:4 Blessed is the man whom You choose, and cause to approach unto You, that he may dwell in Your courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, even of Your holy temple.
68:29 Because of Your temple at Jerusalem shall kings bring presents unto You.
79:1O God, the heathen have come into Your inheritance; Your holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple.
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As the house of God
5:7 But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy.
26:8 LORD, I have loved the habitation of Your house, and the place where Your honour dwells.
36:8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the blessing of Your house.
66:13 I will go into Your house with burnt offerings: I will pay You my vows.
84:1 How amiable are Your tabernacles, O LORD of hosts!
84:2 My soul longs, yea, even faints for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh cries out for the living God.
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1 Samuel
1:9 So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
3:2 And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see;
3:3 And before the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was.
2 Samuel
22:7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and He did hear my voice out of His temple.
God.
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Never hear of the 24/7 worship that went on DURING THE REIGN OF DAVID in the temple of David under Asaph? No, I thought not. Nor the songs of degrees which were accented by each step as they ascended to the temple, under David?
In Acts
James stated
15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up.”
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“But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
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zionist “Christians” are NOT Christians at all.
Comment by Laws | July 2, 2009
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It is unfortunate that you felt compelled to list a multitude of Scriptures easily acquired from any concordance which, though they speak of a temple, does not really address the issue at hand. Knowing words of God is not necessarily the equivalent of knowing the Word of God.
It is important to interpret words both in context and in light of the weight of Scripture. For instance, there is your house and my house, but that is far different than the “House” of the Lord. You have a “body” and I have a “body,” but that is far different than the “Body” of Christ. I could go on with other examples, but hopefully you get my drift.
The key to interpreting this term correctly is the exercise of common sense, and not necessarily a theologian. II Sam 7 pretty well tells you all you need to know about the status and differentiation between a dwelling, a tent, a tabernacle, a building, even a temple in the generic sense, not to be confused with The Temple of God with the prescribed design of the Temple itself, holy vessels, Holy Place , and the Holy of Holies.
Read the entire chapter in context, and pay particular attention to the wording in verse 6, “For I have not dwelt in a house since the day I brought up the sons of Israel from Egypt, even to this day; but I have been moving about in a tent, even a tabernacle. And how was this dwelling place referred to all through the Exodus in the Wilderness? The tent of meeting! That is what was used until Solomon was authorized by God to build The Temple according to the prescribed pattern.
I cannot end my post without making an additonal comment. You have exhibited a decided pattern of insults and hate, unbecoming of one who professes to be a follower of Christ. You mockingly tell me, and others, “Check your Bible!” To which I would reply, “Check your heart!” You write, “Zionist Christians are not Christians at all.” Where in Scripture does it advocate that line of thinking? To disagree with Christians who are excessive in their zeal and support for Israel is a far cry from branding them as not being Christians at all.
You malign men like David and Solomon and place your fleshly judgment over and above the God of heaven and earth. You wreak of anti-Semitism and “pay attention to myths.” Whatever it is you have, or think you have, I sure don’t want it, and neither would I want to see you as a false purveyor and representative of the true Gospel. What you represent is “another Jesus” and “another gospel.”
I sincerely pray that God would deliver you from this “gall of bitterness.” For by it, you are defiling yourself, and potentially many others. The odds are not in your favor that you will ever provoke anyone to a spiritual jealousy while you continue in this ungodly spirit. This is not about doctrine. The root of this issue is a matter of the heart, or what the Scripture describes as a “root of bitterness,” For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” It is my hope that you will be brought to a place of repentance before this bitterness literally consumes you.
BB
Thanks for the Zec 12 expounding, good stuff. I posted this at my board for others.
Paul wrote:
As far as the Ezekiel temple, which clearly is laid out for animal sacrifice. I find it almost unbelievable that anyone could think that Yeshua would permit animal sacrifices (HE was the Atonement for sin) to be performed in Jerusalem during His 1000 year reign from Jerusalem. To think that it will be built “apart from God’s ways” seems completely nonsensical to me, but we will see when He returns. I think it is a complete misreading and misunderstanding of the Holy Scriptures.
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Paul,
I’ll assume you missed reading my post #114. The following two paragraphs taken from that post addressed my view on this specific topic.
Now, in answer to your first question, based upon the premise of a literal Millennium, NO, I do not believe this rebuilt temple will be used, or even exist, into the Millennium. In fact, I fully expect it to be utterly obliterated and every vestige removed at the very end of the Tribulation. Christ will reign in Jerusalem and nations will come to worship in Jerusalem, but without a trace of the previous abominations which took place.
As for your second question, let me share Scripture based upon what I believe to be a reasonable assumption that in order for the Beast or antichrist to take his seat in the Temple and fulfill the “abomination which makes desolate.. in the holy place,” it must take place in reconstituted “holy of holies” within a rebuilt in Jerusalem. II Thess. 2:3-4, Dan. 9:27, 11:31-32, 12:11, Mat. 24:15, Rev. 13:1-8.
My Beloved is mine
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Look at these sriptures above.
You didn’t believe(Gentiles), now because of their(Jews) unbelief you get mercy (salvation)
Now they (Jews) don’t believe, thru your (Gentile) mercy(salvation) they might also receive mercy(salvation).
God concluded Gentile and Jew in unbelief that he might have mercy(salvation) upon all (everyone, Jew & Gentile).
There is no special plan for either than Gods plan of mercy (salvation) for all/any who believe. Jesus Christ.
The Jew received the gopel first, then it went out to the gentiles/world.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Zionism and false prophets have deluded many to the truth of this. There are two women. One a widow, one a wife, one earthy in bondage one heavenly free. Two mothers. Two fathers, Judaism preisthood(vinedressers) and Jesus preisthood.(son of the husbandman)
If you want to be a voice to Israel you must lead Jews out of Judaism and out of Earthly Jerusalem to the preisthood of Christ and the mother of us all Heavenly Jerusalem above.
Then they will inherit the promises of Abraham and covenants of God. By faith in Jesus.
I don’t know what happeneed to “everyone” else who died before Christ came but I know what salvation plan there is now and this is it, no more. The last book was written.
I know that where there was no law(before Moses) sin was not imputed.(God winked at their sin) That souls were preached to beneath the earth, that there were ressurected men seen in the city after Christ was resurrected.
These people God knows who are his.
This is the finished plan, Jesus, the seed of Eve promised.
The Alpha and Omega.
Sorry BB,
I was not aware that Israel had been scattered among the nations during the exile and I was not aware of them being gathered out of ALL lands afterwards.
The Ezekiel 36 prophecy predicts something much more significant and widespread than the return from Babylon.
Richard you say God has not divorced Israel then why does scripture declare
Jer 3:8. “I SAW, WHEN FOR ALL THE CAUSES WHEREBY ISRAEL COMMITTED ADULTERY. I PUT HER AWAY AND GIVEN HER A BILL OF DIVORCE. YET HER TREACHEROUS SISITER JUDAH FEARETH NOT. BUT WENT AND PLAYED THE HARLOT ALSO”
It can be more simpler than this. Both Judah and Israel was exile.
Sorry the Ex Ex37:15/28 does not seem to relate. At least Jeremiah actually uses the word “divorce”.
This means God had to embrace the Jews back in some form other than the old. The question is how come you do not accept Jeremiah 3: Or is there a problem with accepting scripture? Much has been posted. Including references to Hosea chapters 1and 2 Old and New Testament verses.
The advice from ray above here is good. Please consider it.
“Obviously you are not reading any of the responses posted on this thread, and i suspect you are not reading the bible either. Read Hebrews 11 ,and pay particular attention to verse 39
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that THEY should not be made perfect APART from us
Richard, there is only one Israel, that is , the children of the promise.There is also only one temple , that is the Temple of His Body. Amen
Comment by ray | July 6, 2009 “
Could the problem with rejecting scripture lie in another direction ….? The term “Hebrew roots” has been mentioned. Now this movement believes that the churches only end time fulfilment or blessing lies with a return to their Hebrew roots. So when people say that the early church was Jewish what they are saying their religion was Judaism. So as Christian we need to adopt this religion also.
That means a return to adopting Judaist customs. Prayer shawls Sabbath and Jewish feasts, trappings, and ordinances. That’s is why the rebuilding of the temple is so important to some.
Judaism however was reinvented after 70 AD and therefore bears no relation to Biblical Hebrew teachings. In fact even in Jesus time Judaism was already changing. That was the reason why when certain Jews began to argue with him. Jesus response was that they were of their father the devil. This is because Jewish rabbis were already writing what we now know as the Talmud. This volume was completed some centuries later. Is seen as being more inspired than the Torah. Yet the teachings of this book is completely antichrist. The whole Hebrew roots movement is not new. It’s the same argument that false brethren tried back in the first century and which the apostle Paul spent most of his ministry challenging. Those who embrace it Paul declared “You have fallen from Grace”!. That the nice part.
It speaks that we can only understand the Bible only in the light that unregenerate Rabbis interpret. It says we can only be fulfilled by adding Judaist trappings. Faith plus. Yet this is the same argument these false brethren expounded in the first century. You cant be complete with out adopting Jewish religious trappings.
So an Israel which lies out of the covenant until they embrace salvation would not fit with this this belief. Lets call it for what it is. Hebrew roots is nothing more than Judaism. The New Testament rejects it.
Jesus rejected it. Did he not keep the LAW you say? Yes so we can be free from those Old Testament ordnances. So we can enter into a new and better way.
Jesus has this to say..
John 4:22 “ WOMAN BELIEVE ME, THE HOUR COMETH, WHEN YE SHALL NEITHER IN THIS MOUNTAIN, NOR YET IN JERUALEM, WORSHIP THE FATHER….”
John 4:23 “THE HOUR COMETH, AND NOW IS WHEN THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH”
Note the words “Shall neither in this mountain….nor yet in Jerusalem” Jesus the Lord of Glory declares that worship would move away from Jerusalem and the temple. So Judaism was replaced by a new and better covenant of grace.. Scripture abound both in the Old and the New on this matter. Sadly you will never reconcile scripture and the Hebrew root teaching. They are incompatible. The more you continue down the Hebrew roots movement the more you will move away from Scripture..
here are some areticles on the subject….
See also http://www.seekgod.ca/embraceintro.htm
http://www.seekgod.ca/embracebible.htm
http://www.cyshift.com/hebrew_roots.html
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/4_1/jewishroots
http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/dangersHRM.html
The New covenant speaks about better things. Hebrews 11 declares Abraham looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker if God. They looked for a new heavenly country 11:16 “whereby God is not ashamed to be called their God..For he hath prepared for them a city.”
These saints of the Old were even then looking for that new Jerusalem. The plot of land now called Pallestine was but a shadow of the New heavenly land. An enduring promise land
an everlasting inheritance for all believers by faith.
“These all obtained a good report through faith. Recieved not the promise. God having provided some better thing for us. That they without us should not be made perfect”
The church is going in together. saved Jew and gentile
‘Churchy’ church people need to be more respectful of the Jewish people, and should be more careful with the words they use in representing The Messiah. Foolish, arrogant, angry, racist, anti-Semitic, smug, bitter, ignorant talk will turn many away from the Truth. Better to be silent than to talk foolishly.Do not be rash with your mouths. The tongue unleashes the fires of hell. Words can destroy. Less words are better. Let your words be few. The more words, the less the meaning. A fool utters all his mind. A fool multiplies words. (And, even a simple fool who remains silent is considered wise.) Much can be said with silence.
James said:
“I remember coming upon a discussion between, I believe her name was Billye Brim and Gloria Copland. Billye topic was Israel. She recounted that the gentiles were being drawn to the father via Christ which was Biblical enough. But the Father was drawing the Jews directly to himself. Otherwise without going via Christ. This was nothing short of gross heresy.”
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James,
You are right to say that view is heresy.
There is no salvation without Christ.
Jesus is the Messiah of Israel. It is only through their Messiah that Israel can find salvation.
However, those who promote “replacement theology” take things too far the other way with their claim that God has replaced Israel with the Church. They are denying Israel its place in the covenants that God established with them that are not necessarily related to salvation. Those covenants have not been forgotten or forsaken by the God who made them. These covenants were made with Abraham (promising His descendents a land) and with David, (promising one of his descendents would reign over ISRAEL as King). Those covenants were totally separate and not related to the Mosaic Covenant associated with the Law.
Is God going to honour those covenants?
If not, we can have no confidence that He would honour the NEW Covenant.
When will those covenants be honoured?
When ALL Israel is saved, as per Paul’s prophecy.
When Jesus returns and reigns for 1000 years from Jerusalem.
I have been praying and thinking about the 1000 years in relation to Jerusalem and National Israel. What part does Earthly Jerusalem play in the end of days? Is it to save National Israel or judge it as Mystery Babylon? The nations are being gathered for something. Jerusalem is a cup of trembling.What if the thousand years is only a thousand days?
Luke 17:19-21
19And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
So the Kingdom will not come with observation. Is this just being born again or is there more to this statement?
We see below there is a trump at the coming of the Lord. There are seven trumps in revelation on the seventh seal.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What if the Kingdom of God (1000 years/days) would come without observation to us on earth?
Revelation 14:12-14
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Are those above they who are dead at his coming?
Mark 12:26-27
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Are the dead of the righteous resurrected at death or dead resurrected before the 1000 years/days begins? Are they just waiting till they get there new bodies at the last trump? When mortality puts on immortality?
We know that the rest are not resurrected until after the 1000 years/days once Satan is bound.
Are these below the ones alive at his coming who remain? Are they the two witnesses that prophesy in the camp? Whose dead bodies lie in the street and suddenly come to life on the third day?
Revelation 7:13-15
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Daniel 12:11-13
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Above is the example of what happened at Jerusalem the first 3 ½ years, is it the same the last 3 ½?
What if 1000 years is 1000 days? After 1000 days Satan is loosed again. Are the two witnesses there until 1260 days?
Revelation 11:2-4
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
These do the plagues(vials), then the beast is loosed (satan) comes out of the pit.
REV 11
6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Then they are resurrected. After 1260 days. After Satan was loosed and over came them.
Then they meet the Lord in the air and judge the Great whore. Mystery Babylon.
The second woe.
REV 11
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets (two), and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 16
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Revelation 18
7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
REV 18
20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
1335
-1260
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Please ignore the numbers at the bottom of my last post. It posted before I was done with the post.
Fred London
I have to say that every one of your comments display the exact biblical understanding as David Pawson. I know David is a mere man, and as such is not infallible but his knowledge and insight is as biblically sound as any I have encountered. We have learnt a great deal from following his studies,including this subject, with his overwiew of the bible that he calls God’s Story – ‘Unlocking the Bible’.
I guess there will continue to be much dissent/disagreement until HE comes, but your contribution along with those of the same discernment is much appreciated. Thank you.
Fred,
I think we have moved on past the first point about the temple, so I will say something about the second point of the “abomination which maketh desolate”. You may have not read one of my previous post above, but I am firmly convinced that HE Who took away the “daily sacrifice” was our Lord by His sacrifice, thus the veil ripped from top to bottom. The abomination was by the desolate Jews who just continued to offer the animal sacrifices, which are an abomination to God. This is one I have studied and prayed about a great deal, and I am convicted of this understanding of the Scriptures relating to this subject, BUT, I can see there are many who do not see it that way. Again, we will just have to “agree to disagree” until one of us is shown that he is wrong by The Holy Spirit.
All glory to God.
I feel compelled to offer myself (at the risk of being a sacrificial lamb) to address any and all questions concerning the perspective of one Jewish believer among many. As a Jewish believer myself for some 38 years, I have prety much seen and experienced it all in terms of doctrine, practice, world view, and priorities.
It didn’t take to terribly long in my spiritual walk where I decided to take a long step back and take a fresh look at the Scriptures with the attiude of starting at “square one.” I imagine as a result of this approach, which continues to this very day, it is virtually impossible to conveniently label me or place me in a particular doctrinal category.
Much of what I have read in this thread I consider to have come from some very intelligent people, both naturally and spiritually, even those I may disagree with. By the same token, there are some who have made assumptions expressed through very broad generalizations as to what certain people believe. There are many forms of bias, of which, I have come to the conviction that at the root is not at the doctrinal level, but a matter of the heart. “For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.”
As a rule, I have found that people are essentially drawn to certain teachers and doctrines, primarily because of heart attitude, and not as a result of doctrine. But rather, the acceptance and formulation of doctine and attitudes take root and grow out of preconceived notions. And yes, this can be just as applicable to Jewish believers as well as Gentile believers.
One error in attitude is that somehow Jews, and Jewish believers in partiuclar, are perceived as having a corner on the market when it comes to exclusivity, deception, doctrinal error, and fleshly bias. Actually, this is a form of “paying attention to myths” which few consider. Flesh is flesh, regardless. Now, I am a realist. Is there some truth to this opinion. Absolutely! But, I repeat, do the Jews have a corner on this market? Absolutely not!
The only remedy I know to avoiding such pitfalls is to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the Heart and Mind of Christ, and for His assistance in receiving the “whole counsel of God,” His Divine purposes, in the tradition of the Bereans, having a spirit of neutrality and objectivity, allowing the Scriptures to take them wheresover they will.
I would not presume to have any takers on my offer as I am limited as any other man as one who is “looking through a glass darkly.” But in my 38 years in the Lord, I can at least say that “I have been around the block” a few times, having been inside the Messianic Jewish Movement, outside the Messianic Jewish Movement, the Jesus Movement, mainlime churches, nondenominational churches, Charismatics and Fundamentalists, and along the way, having been exposed to pretty much “every wind of doctrine.”
So,whosoever will, fire away! I don’t claim to have an answer for everything. Only an arrogant fool would make such a claim. I have no reservation in saying, “I don’t know.” But, whatever my reply might be, I can assure you that it will be honest and straightforward. One last thought, if I may. I believe that men and women of God can engage in honest discussion without making personal attacks, that there is even a place for genuine dissent, and yet maintain a mutual respect for one another.
Proverbs 27:17 says, “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another man.” This is where sincere discussion in the pursuit of God’s Truth can be profitable. However, there are a couple of contributors who consistently violate that aspect of spiritual etiquette, and where it is apparent to me that the dispute is not so much a matter of doctrine as it is a matter of the heart. To those who engage me, or others, in such a manner, I will not be so gracious.
The answer is actually in your own statement on Ezekiel.
Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.
Eze 36:28 And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. And you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
So far natural Israel has been restored to their homeland, although I don’t believe this is the fullness of the prophecy. The issue here is to do with natural Israel? What do you want to see happen with the nation? They hold a piece of land say 100 by 50 miles. OK. what next. God will rule and reign from Jerusalem. OK. No arguments. What then? The millennium ends after thousand years. Do we see all Jews get saved? OK on what basis? what covenant? Is Palestine the final fulfilment of Gods promise to them? Or does God look beyond to something greater? A new land whose dimensions is a world of saved people
Biblical Replacements says they get saved under the New Covenant. Hebrew roots/ Christian Zionist say they have a different destiny, WHY? Biblical replacement says we must all come through the narrow way. We are not grafted into a people or nation but into ONE MAN. Romans 6 picks up what Jesus says in John 15. Baptised into his death, through the grave and raised in the likeness of his resurrection.
Gods brought about a NEW COVENANT for whom? Gentiles only, or for the Jews as well.
Will God honour his covenant with Israel …YES. But again under what covenant?
Ezekiel 36 we see a Jew returned…OK then what ? Ezekiel 36 25 2I WILL CLEANSE YOU FROM ALL FILTHINESS” Ezekiel 36:26 “I WILL GIVE YOU A NEW HEART AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH…I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY WAYS…” Ezekiel 36 :28 “….YOU SHALL BE MY PEOPLE AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD”
So what is God speaking about here.. Cleansed….New heart.. Gods spirit within.. You shall be my people and I will be you god. See 1 Peter 2:10 Jeremiah 32:31-
It suggests they will be restored to being his people. Which means at some time they had cease to be his people. It suggests that being restored to the land is not an end in itself. But the beginning of something better. God is looking beyond the natural to a new covenant. If there is no salvation outside of Christ.. No plan B. Then in the end the Jews have only one way to go and one place to set their faith on. Messianic Jews who are truly saved are not a people separate from Christ or his body.
The issue here again to cover old ground…ON WHAT COVENANT WILL ANYONE JEW OR GENTILE BE SAVED?
Did God break his covenant? NO the Jews did.
Could there be any possibility of keeping this covenant? NO
Will God honour the covenant laid out under Moses? .. NO AND YES. That covenant was conditional upon obedience to the law. Israel could not keep it. So they suffered the consequences by the curses. The New covenant was Gods way of establishing a new and better way that could save.
Hebrews 8: 12-13 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS AND THEIR SINS AND INIQUTIES WILL I REMEMBER NO MORE. FOR HE SAITH A NEW COVENANT HE HATH MADE. THE FIRST NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.
So we cant see the Jews being restored under that covenant can we. But the Zionist lot would say “OH yes we can”. The Bible says” NO CHANCE”
Jeremiah 32:31 “BEHOLD THE DAYS COME SAITH THE LORD, THAT I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY I TOOK THEM BY THE
HAND TO BRING THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT. WHICH MY COVENANT THEY BROKE…..
So what part of the old covenant would you wish God to honour? A piece of land that will soon soon perish and a coivenant they could not keep, or a new and better land with a city four square. God has given them the land. But they remain there in unbelief. Are they destined to repent? Yes. But into what will they enter? upon what salvation? see Eph 2:
You mentioned the Abraham covenant. This I believe gives you a greater problem than the mosaic covenant But this issue has been explored by many on this blog. The Abraham covenant finds it fulfilment in the church. The trouble is the certain groups like Zionism and Hebrew roots movement has distained the very word “church”. So that it becomes associated with something abominable, gentile orientated, corrupt and not worthy of mentioning in the same breath as Israel. So you cant associate that the Church is Christ’s body.
To distain it is to distain Christ. Because of this people bypass the church and seek a destiny for Israel apart from Christ. Because of this many seek to have a destiny with Israel apart from the church.
The church was grafted into one man. It is a beautiful and glorious bride. Much is made of the Jewish prayer shawl, it beauty and its significance. Yet in comparison to the robes the believer will wear that Jewish shawl is nothing more than a fitting rag ready for the dustbin. The glory of the latter house surpasses in its glory and magnificence than the former. The spirit and the bride say “ come”
James. As I said keep up your reading/studying and lean not on your own understanding but seek revelation through the Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth as you remain faithful and open in your search. The day will come when you will be of a different mind.
To My Beloved is mine and He is yours too:
Sorry, my comments were not directed to you in that piece I wrote. I have no bone to pick with you on the contrary I agree with what you said about being a watchman. The Lord impressed upon me long ago the reality of whose blood is on my hands should I not show people what is coming upon them.
God bless you sister and your family.
Jeri Quinty wrote:
I know that where there was no law(before Moses) sin was not imputed.(God winked at their sin) That souls were preached to beneath the earth, that there were ressurected men seen in the city after Christ was resurrected.
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Jeri:
Actually, from the very beginning sin was imputed prior to the giving of the Mosaic Law. Due to Adam and Eve’s disobedience in partaking from the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Cain killed Abel and was punished by being condemned to a life of being a “vagrant and wanderer.” There was the curse of Canaan due to Ham’s sin of uncovering his fathers nakedness, and the judgment and destruction of Sodom due to the sinfulness of the men there. I think you get the idea.
Will the Third Temple be the Church? Will someone walk into the Christian Church and defile Jesus Christ? The true Church is the place of residence for the Holy Spirit–so it makes sense that an Antichrist–or the spirit of Antichrist will infiltrate the church and make it unclean–the abomination of desolation.
There is a book out I read a few years ago—-I think it is called End Time Deceptions–or something like that. It is written by a Messianic Jew David Walvoord, and he does not think there will be a third temple. He says the church is the temple. Among other things–he is looking at the end of the age through intuitive eyes–not sensate eyes that read the Bible as absolutely literal. It makes sense, for the Bible says that the trees will “clap their hands” and we all know trees don’t have hands. It is an interesting read.
I made a post, which hasn’t shown up yet on this website as of this moment, but in it I am responding to another post and I say that Christ took away the “daily sacrifice”. I need to clarify myself there. Christ’ sacrifice did away with any need for any animal sacrifice, as I know we in Christ are aware – that is what I meant by that statement.
As far as the prophecy in Daniel about the “daily sacrifice”, that was fulfilled when it was taken away by the Romans when they came and destroyed Jerusalem; it has no future fulfillment. At that point all animal sacrifices by the physical Jews were an abomination to God anyway.
May Father God have mercy upon our souls.
Comment by PJR is interesting.
I think I might of read that book at some time! The main contribution to the idea of another Jewish temple is the quote from Daniel 8 and Matthew 24:15 ( Luke 21:20). Whilst there may be Jewish factions that are pushing for a new temple, the main push appears to be coming from certain Hebrew /Christian Zionist movements. Who are keen to see prophecy being fulfilled. And who are keen to pour money into the project.
The building of a new temple poses major problems:
As Israel is predominantly secular in nature, the idea of a new temple on a temple mount is just not a realistic scenario. The Religious Jews reinvented Judaism after 70 AD and see the idea of actually animal sacrifice as no longer being needed. To them it has become a “sacrifice of prayer” rather than an animal. Matthew 24 certainly links the desolation of the temple to what happened in the previous temple. However some see the latter as taking place when the Romans took Jerusalem and burned down the temple in AD 70. The apostasy of the church has been well documented. The reality is certainly here for all to see. So your may have a good point, although I would not reject the idea of some temple being built. The anger of secular Jews against God because of the holocaust poses another major problem that will need to be resolved. Many secular Jews will have nothing to do with a religious monument when it is believed that God was not there when he was needed.
Another problem is that a new Temple would pose a problem or hinderence when it comes to the uniting of all religions under the false one world religion.
Well we cant go back to the Jews inside and the gentiles outside under this new all together saving the planet can we! Or will it become a symbol of unity rather than division. The new Judaism for a new age? embracing all!
Sorry maybe a flight of fancy there.
Another main problem is that upon that mount is a Moslem mosque. Its removal poses one of the most significant problems against any rebuilding. Some have suggested another place might be possible who knows. It is believed that the image of the beast being placed in the temple is the desolation spoken of by Jesus. Unfortunately our understanding of these events has come from such teachers as Hal Lindsey. His recent report advocating a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Iran. On the basis of “do to others before they do to you” does not equate with scripture. So I personally believe we need to go back to the drawing board and look at what is taught without any prior influences of men like Lindsey. While I do not reject everything he had to say I would like to take a second look.
I think it is only as scripture is being fulfilled before us can we actually say “Yes” this was how it was going to happen.
So for a temple to be built upon the temple mount there are many major problems to be overcome.
So far despite prophetic claims of just about everything from an accidental strike by militants to an earthquake the Moslem Mosque still stands.
However the desolation of the secular church has been overwhelmingly devastating. False apostles and prophets, false signs and wonders, and false experiences. Churches being closed at a greater rate than at any time in history. You could not have done a better job than if someone did throw a grenade into a church hall. So an abomination that caused desolation whilst it cannot be related to true born again believers. The secular denominations have jumped on board whatever has passed the board. Not everyone that claims to be of the church is in the church. A preacher recently commentated that if the antichrist was to show up tomorrow the majority of the charismatic movement would follow. Because they simply fail to use any form of discern. Whilst I hope he is wrong, my own experiences of friends would suggest he may be right.
So I would not reject anything at this point.
Fred,
Romans 5:12-14
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Acts 17:29-31
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Peter 4:5-7
5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I don’t disagree that death reigned, that wasn’t my point. It was what happened to those who died before Christ came what I was refering to.
Jerie
Fred,
I had a weird revelation about Noah and the curse on the land too.
Rain and Meat
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them and God said unto them be “fruitful” and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it.
30 To every beast and fowl of the air….I have given every green herb for meat and it was so.
29 And God said behold I have given you (man) every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree (of the garden), in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed (word/Jesus), to you it shall be meat. (Bread from heaven/provision).
Genesis 3:17
And unto Adam he said, because thou has harkened unto the voice of thy wife, and has eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee saying, Thou shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake. In sorrow thou shall eat of it all the days of thy life.
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee (not meat/fruit); and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.
Ok now I need to say this shadows Nebuchadnezzar condition.
Dan 4:33
He was driven from men and ate grass as an oxen with the beast of the field. The dew of the earth is what moistens his body, no rain (spirit) on it.
Now the world became exceedingly wicked. Picture them driven from the garden without the trees that bare the fruit yielding seed (word). They are eating what the ground and the dew of the earth give them only. The work the land but it doesn’t produce fruit to life, just thorns and briars. Their life is spent in toil and sorrow.
Then Noah is born and called. The Lord is sorry he made man. Only wickedness prevails because there is no fruit and no spirit (rain) from heaven. The dew is barely keeping them alive. They are beast.
Genesis 5:29
And he called Noah saying, this same shall comfort us concerning our work and our toil of our hands, because of the ground, which the Lord has cursed.
The earth opens up the waters break forth the rain of God begins. A flood, a glorious flood and God tells them again to breed abundantly and multiply upon the earth. Gen 8:17
The Lord then tells them
Gen 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savor and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for mans sake, for the imagination of mans heart is evil from his youth, neither will I again smite anymore every living thing as I have done.
Gen 9 :10
And I, behold, I will establish my covenant with you and with your seed after you.
10 and every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle and of every beast of the earth with you from all that go out of the arc, to every beast of the field.
Genesis 8:22
WHILE THE EARTH REMAINETH, SEEDTIME AND HARVEST, and cold and heat and summer and winter and day and night shall not cease.
Genesis 9:3
Everything that liveth shall be meat for you, even as the green herb have I given you all things
Hebrews 6:6-8
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The rain is the spirit the Lord pours on the ground to prepare the ground to grow trees bearing fruit yielding the seed and word of life. When there is only dew, only grass grows and herbs with seed. It is chocked out by thorns and briars.
Deuteronomy 32
1Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Psalm 37
1Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
3Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
Psalm 106:20
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
Isaiah 15:6
For the waters of Nimrim shall be desolate: for the hay is withered away, the grass faileth, there is no green thing.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word (SEED) of our God shall stand forever.
You will have meat and rain in due season. You will have provision and abundant life.
Psalm 84:5-7
5Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6Who passing through the valley of Baca (TEARS) make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
7They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
I think the curse of the ground (at eden) was lifted thru Noah. Sorry this is off subject of the third temple. I just know when the Lord showed me this I was surprised.
Fred,
Again I appologize, but about Cain and the curse. His curse was on the ground, for thorns and briars.
Genesis 4
9And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?
10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
This was before the flood mind you.
Now God in his MERCY put a Mark on Cain to spare his life. Like David and his murder his life will be spared.
13And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Vengence is the Lords, but the Lord is merciful.
Genesis 4:23-25 (King James Version)
23And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
The scriptures below in context below is about retaining and remitting sin and later goes into the servant who was forgiven and yet does not extend mercy to one who is indebted to him.
Matthew 18:21-23
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
The vengence and the mercy belong to god. Note the earth and the increase, the rain, the atonement of sins and the judgment of sins. This is thru Christ.
Isaiah 30
23Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.
24The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan.
25And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
26Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
27Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.
7 x 70= 490 years until Christ takes away the sacrifice (blood)and the oblation (feast/ordinances). Until the time of forgiveness of sins by the Christ atonement. This is how I know this scripture applies to Jesus and not the Anti-Christ.
Daniel 9:24-27
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
29Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.
Fred London
I have to say that every one of your comments display the exact biblical understanding as David Pawson. I know David is a mere man, and as such is not infallible but his knowledge and insight is as biblically sound as any I have encountered. We have learnt a great deal from following his studies,including this subject, with his overwiew of the bible that he calls God’s Story – ‘Unlocking the Bible’.
I guess there will continue to be much dissent/disagreement until HE comes, but your contribution along with those of the same discernment is much appreciated. Thank you.
Comment by Sylvia | July 9, 2009
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Sylvia,
Thank you for your kind and encouraging comments. For the record and benefit of those reading and contributing to this thread, I know very little about David Pawson, except that I have seen his name on occasion and have read a few snippets of comments he has expressed, and that only recently.
Beyond that, my convictions are completely independent of David Pawson’s ministry. However,I am always heartened when I encounter others who hold similar views from their own diligent examination of the Scriptures. Discipleship is a far cry from indoctrination. We need to endeavor to be voices, and not merely echoes.
Fred,
I think we have moved on past the first point about the temple, so I will say something about the second point of the “abomination which maketh desolate”. You may have not read one of my previous post above, but I am firmly convinced that HE Who took away the “daily sacrifice” was our Lord by His sacrifice, thus the veil ripped from top to bottom. The abomination was by the desolate Jews who just continued to offer the animal sacrifices, which are an abomination to God. This is one I have studied and prayed about a great deal, and I am convicted of this understanding of the Scriptures relating to this subject, BUT, I can see there are many who do not see it that way. Again, we will just have to “agree to disagree” until one of us is shown that he is wrong by The Holy Spirit.
All glory to God.
Comment by Paul | July 9, 2009
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Paul,
You don’t specify which comment you are refering to, but I have endeavored to make it a point to read all comments on this thread. In virtually every text and context, directly and indirectly related to what we know as the “abomination of desolation,” it is clear to me the circumstances are dealing beyond the sacrifice of Christ, and as some suggest, the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.
We must read Scriptures such as Daniel 9, 11, 12, Mat. 24, II Thess. 2, Rev. 12-13 in context and in light of the weight of other related Scriptures. Witnin God’s ultimate scheme in this age, these events are a means to and end, but not the end themselves. If we do not undertand the essense of what the phrase, “abomination of desolation” represents, both literally and spiritually, then any false premise will lead to misinterpretation of God’s purposes in the greater scheme of things.
What if the thousand years is only a thousand days?
Comment by Jerie Quinty | July 9, 2009
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Jeri,
To be frank, if you can question whether a “thousand years” literally means what it says, but rather somehow really means a “thousand days,” Biblical interpretation then becomes purely subjective. Is it not reasonable to assume that had God intended to mean a “thousand days,” that He would have simply expressed it plainly as “days” and not “years?” “God is not a God of confusion.”
Does God speak in metaphors? Of course, He does! But, as a rule,He lets you know when He is speaking literally and wehen He is speaking figurately. For example, Jesus would prerequisite His statements with, “Behold I speak in a parable,” and then would go on to explain the meaning of that parable. This is the sort of “poetic license,” so to speak, I believe, violates reasonable fundamentals of Biblical interpretation.
As a result, there can be no standard to which we can determine the characteristics of sound doctrine. After all, approach the Scriptures with that mentality, one interpretation is as good as another. But, even that runs contrary to Scripture, that is, unless you happen not to interpret those related Scriptures, literally.
I made a post, which hasn’t shown up yet on this website as of this moment, but in it I am responding to another post and I say that Christ took away the “daily sacrifice”. I need to clarify myself there. Christ’ sacrifice did away with any need for any animal sacrifice, as I know we in Christ are aware – that is what I meant by that statement.
As far as the prophecy in Daniel about the “daily sacrifice”, that was fulfilled when it was taken away by the Romans when they came and destroyed Jerusalem; it has no future fulfillment. At that point all animal sacrifices by the physical Jews were an abomination to God anyway.
May Father God have mercy upon our souls.
Comment by Paul | July 12, 2009
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Paul,
It is quite difficult to obtain an accurate interpretation when you pluck a single word or phrase out of its proper context. If you do not relate the “taking away of the daily sacrifice” with the “man of sin” and the “abomination of desolation,” among other related passages, then you are left with pretty much an “anything goes” when it comes to individual interpretation.
“They were JEWS – they were ISRAEL. They were the remnant who God has NOT forsaken. The church has been grafted into the same root as that remnant and we are secure only as long as we remain faithful and obedient: otherwise we can easily be cut off that root.”
“When will those covenants be honoured?
When ALL Israel is saved, as per Paul’s prophecy.”
So which is it–a remnant of ethnic Israel(the ELECT who obtained salvation through the gift of faith) or ALL ethnic Israel, for in one post you say they were forsaken outside the remnant and in another you say ALL will be saved?
Isaiah 10:21 “A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.”
Shear-jashub means “a remnant shall return” and suggests both judgment (God’s people will be reduced to a remnant) and grace (that remnant will return; cf. 10:20–22). See 8:18 for the symbolic significance of Isaiah’s family.
In Romans 9-11:36, Paul makes it clear that God’s saving promises have been fulfilled for the Gentiles. Indeed, the church of Jesus Christ now enjoys the spiritual blessings promised to Israel: the gift of the Spirit (8:9); adoption as God’s children (8:14–17); future glory (8:17, 30); election (8:33); and the promise of never being severed from God’s love (8:35–39). Paul now asks in chs. 9–11 whether the promises God made to ethnic Israel will be fulfilled. If his promises to the Jews remain unfulfilled, how can Gentile Christians be sure that he will fulfill the great promises that conclude ch. 8? Paul answers that God is faithful to his saving promises to Israel (9:6) and that he will ultimately save his people (11:26).
And we see in 9:1-29 that God’s saving promises to Israel are irrevocable since they depend upon his word of promise and his electing grace.
But does that mean all of the physical nation of Israel?
Romans 9:27–”only a remnant of them will be saved”; the fact that only some of Israel would be saved was prophesied in Isa. 10:22–23. Most of Israel was judged, and only a remnant experienced salvation. Indeed, as Isa. 1:9 says, Israel deserved to be wiped out like Sodom and Gomorrah, but God had mercy and spared some.
Acts 15:16-18–”After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.” James refers to “prophets” (v. 15), showing that he could appeal to more than one OT text to defend the inclusion of Gentiles by faith alone. See the allusion to Isa. 45:21 in Acts 15:18, and the context of the Isaiah prophecy. James concentrated on Amos 9:11–12, which looked to the time when God would restore the house of David. Luke provides the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the text, which speaks of the Gentiles (Gk. ethnē) seeking the Lord. But even the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text fits with what James argued, since it speaks of a people called by my name (Amos 9:12), and those called by God’s name are in a saving relationship with him. Amos looked to a time when God would claim a people for himself from among the Gentiles. James concurred with Peter that the time of Gentile inclusion in God’s people had now arrived.
And what does this look forward to?
“In those days and in that time, declares the Lord, iniquity shall be sought in Israel, and there shall be none, and sin in Judah, and none shall be found, for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant.”–Jeremiah 50:20. When God restores his people, no sin will be found in them, not because they have never sinned, but because he will pardon them (31:34–”And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more”) and completely purify their hearts (31:38–40 Jerusalem will soon be destroyed, yet God will eventually rebuild it. When it is totally sacred to the Lord–Zech. 14:20–21–it will not be uprooted or overthrown anymore forever. At that time it will be Zion, the new Jerusalem, the city where God lives with his people in the permanent absence of sin–Isa. 4:2–6; 25:6–12; 65:17–25; Rev. 21:27–”But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life”).
So what do we see in Romans 11? Paul reminds us of how Elijah in his despair thought Israel would be extinguished. But God assured Elijah that he had preserved a remnant, which gave Elijah hope that God would fulfill his saving promises in the future. In Paul’s day, as in Elijah’s day (v. 4) and today, a remnant of Jews believe in Christ because of God’s electing grace (cf. 9:27–29). Vv 5 and 6–
“So too at the present time there is a remnant, CHOSEN BY GRACE. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” Which shows that ELECTION and GRACE are inseparable, for both show that salvation is God’s work alone, and that it has nothing to do with works. On grace, see also 4:4–5; Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:8–9. The composite citation from Isa. 29:10 and Deut. 29:4 in vv 7-10 clarifies that God has hardened Israel so that they would not see or hear.
Ah, but we see in v11 Israel’s hardening is not the final word. God planned salvation history so that Israel’s trespass would open salvation for the Gentiles, and the Jews in turn would be provoked to jealousy when they see Gentiles being saved and enjoying a relationship with God. If the rejection of the majority of Israel has meant that many Gentiles (the world) are now reconciled to God through Christ, then the acceptance of the Jews (their future coming to Christ in large numbers) will bring about the final resurrection (life from the dead) and the end of history, so that from that point on people will praise God forever and ever (see vv 12 and 15). Rom. 11:16–Here two illustrations are used that teach the same truth. The firstfruits and the root probably refer to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and the saving promises given to them. If the firstfruits and root are consecrated to God, so too are the whole lump (of dough) and the branches (i.e., the Jewish people as a whole); see Num. 15:17–21 for OT origin of the imagery. As Paul has already explained in Romans 9–10, it does not follow from this that every Jewish person will be saved, but it does indicate that God will be faithful to his promises (9:6–But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel) and seems to imply that in the future many more Jews will be saved. The illustration of the root and its branches is elaborated upon in vv. 17–24. The people of God are portrayed here as an olive tree (cf. Jer. 11:16–19; Hos. 14:6–7). When Paul says some branches were removed, he probably has in mind the majority of the Jews of his day. Gentiles as wild shoots were grafted into the olive tree and now share in the root (the promises made to the patriarchs).
Let’s jump down to vv 28-36. The unbelief of Israel has benefited the Gentiles, i.e., this is the period of history in which Gentiles are being saved, while most of Israel remains in unbelief. But God’s electing promise given to their forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled in the future. Israel will be saved because God never revokes his saving promises. Gifts (Gk. charisma) means things freely given by God, and the word can be used to refer to different kinds of gifts. Sometimes the word refers to spiritual gifts for ministry (as in 1:11; 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:4) and sometimes to the gift of salvation (Rom. 5:15–16; 6:23), but the context here favors yet a third kind of “gifts,” namely, the unique blessings given to Israel which Paul mentioned at the beginning of this long section (9:4–5). Calling (Gk. klēsis, using the same root as Gk. eklogē, “election,” in 11:28; also in 9:11; 11:7) refers here to calling to salvation (cf. 8:30; 9:11, 24). Salvation history is structured to feature God’s great mercy. God saved the Gentiles when one would expect only the Jews to be saved, but in the future he will amaze all by his grace again by saving the Jews, so that it will be clear that everyone’s salvation is by mercy alone. “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.” The word all here refers to Jews and Gentiles (all without distinction, not all without exception). The sin and disobedience of both Jews and Gentiles is highlighted, to emphasize God’s mercy in saving some among both Jews and Gentiles.
As he concludes his setting forth of God’s great plan in the history of salvation (chs. 1–11), Paul breaks forth into praise. God’s wisdom and ways are far beyond the understanding of human beings, and hence he deserves all the glory. The words of Isa. 40:13 teach that no human being knows the mind of the Lord apart from revelation, and no one can serve as God’s adviser. Likewise the majestic words of Job 41:11 are a reminder that no one ultimately gives anything to God. Instead, everything humans have is a gift from God (1 Cor. 4:7).
Since all things are from God, and through God, and for God, it follows that he deserves all the glory forever. God’s saving plan brings him great honor, praise, and glory forever and ever.
There is only one God, who has acted redemptively (our Savior), once for all, in his one and only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the mediator through whom the person who trusts in him is able to give praise and thanksgiving to God. The church praises God through Christ, saying, to God be glory (here in the sense of great honor), majesty (Gk. megalōsynē; He is greater than all), dominion (Gk. kratos; His sovereign reign has no boundaries), and authority (Gk. exousia; He rules over all creation); in other words, may the praiseworthiness of God, who is as gracious as He is great, be fully acknowledged in His people’s adoration of Him.
He has infinite power to keep from stumbling those who have put their faith in Him. By “stumbling” Jude means falling into sin or error (Gk. aptaistos, “without stumbling”; cf. ptaiō, “stumble,” in Rom. 11:11; James 2:10; 3:2; 2 Pet. 1:10). If such stumbling is left unchecked it will eventually lead to falling away from the faith. Yet Jude says God will never let His own fall away but will “keep” them by His grace (Jude 21–Christians keep themselves in God’s love by growing strong doctrinally, persevering in prayer, and “waiting” for the Lord’s coming. Christians are to keep themselves in God’s love, knowing that God keeps them as well). He will present the Christian blameless (with no stain or sin) before the presence of His glory, the brightness that surrounds the presence of God and visibly manifests His holy character. This can only be effected by God’s power, through Jesus Christ the Lord. The only possible response to the work of God on behalf of believers is great joy (Gk. agalliasis, “great joy, exultation”), which suggests an exclamation of joy and praise.
“Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”
I managed to find the other reference to the temple. I remembered there was one in book of Revelation but it took a little while to find it. Rev 11:1 This speaks about the measuring of the temple.
“The court which is without the temple leave out and measure it not. But it is given unto the gentiles and the holy city shall be trampled forty and two months” (see also Revelation 13:5)
If this is a reference to a future “temple” how will it be built and when? Hal Lindsey believes that a restored temple could fit on the mount without the removal of the Mosque. However the Moslems will not allowed any other buildings other than their own. The reference to the Mosque ( court of the Gentiles) to the side of such a temple is what Lindsey interprets from this verse. Like many teachers his ideas have changed. Which shows how difficult it is to truly interpret these verses. So far everything runs counter to an actual temple being built on the temple mount.
However the reference to the holy city being trampled for 3 and a half years at the same time would pose another problem. What nation and who tramples it? If the nation is under the control of another, would that other allow Jewish worship on a site adorned by Moslems? The only way we could get around this is if another site is found? The temple (tabernacle) was not always housed on the mount.
At this time the growth in Islam would certainly forbid a temple being built on a Moslem holy site. There are factions within Israel that would like to see all Israeli Palestinians (Moslems) removed from Israel. Further aggravation all around.
If the temple does get built it will be built by men with preconceived ideas in mind. Holiness and true worship may not be the first thing on their mind. A good return for their money would certainly fit the context of Rev. 11
This is why some believe that Rev. 11:1 speaks more about a heavenly temple. But then how do we interpet “the court which is without”?
Unfortunately with scant verses to go on it is difficult to build a major doctrine on it with all assurance. The fact that “worship” is mentioned in Rev 11:1 rather than sacrifices might fit in with how the Jews themselves view sacrifices. But then I could be snatching at straws.
The rebuilding of such a temple according to Rev 11:1 would appear to be on the same old religious segregation and separation. The Jews within and Gentiles without. Hardly the ecumenical push towards a one world religion.
Revelation in verse 8 Makes mentioned to the two witnesses lying dead in the “GREAT CITY, WHICH IS SPIRITUALLY CALLED SODOM AND EGYPT WERE OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED” (This is clearly Jerusalem. The reference to Jerusalem and Sodom is interesting because the Jerusalem houses the headquarters of the local Homosexual movement. Who arranges the local gay pride marches.
Revelation 11 makes mention of the Two witnesses. At the end of their ministry there is a major earthquake and a tenth part of the city falls (verse 13) ”The remnant were afraid and gave glory to God”. I wondered what part of Jerusalem it refers to? So even with the building of a temple there is a rejection of the prophets God sends and a rejection of the message and a terrible judgement on the city. Their message goes almost unheeded until the earthquake. Is this when Jewish blindness is removed? The only other verse in Revelation 11 that would set this in the future rather than the past is verses 9-10
“They of the people and kindred and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three and half days and shall not suffer them to be put in graves. They that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them and make merry….”
How would the nations see the dead bodies of two men lying dead in Jerusalem? We can answer that today but not before that. This also speaks about a time of terrible wickedness which has gripped the nations. Because they start to send gifts to each other. Morality has clearly broken down and Jerusalem has its share of the wickedness. What do we call it “reality TV”. Would we get to the point that watching someone die on TV become a source off intertainment? In such a depraved times of wickedness what sort of temple would it be?
So I would not reject anything at this time.
The abomination that makes desolate and taking away the sacrifice and oblation.
It is my belief that Dan 9:24-27 is speaking about Christ.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I also believe this is speaking about the abomination spoken of in The New testament.
Dan 11
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Now just think on this for a minute. The beast is the nebuchadnezzar statue wounded in the head (babylon) and come back to life in the toes.
In the book of daniel we have a period of time when this abomination was set up and a decree was issued for 30 days that no one should offer prayers to anyone except the statue.(this is the daily sacrifice, the morning and evening prayers). This was Daniels delima, or worshipping the beast, taking his mark so to speak.
So this image of the beast would be this statue of (mans/satans kingdom) a golden idol (money/gold/mammon)
Now think on Zec 5 and the woman and the ephah.(the ephah is a measurement (kingdom weighed and found wanting)
7And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. (the woman is weighed in the midst)
8And he said, This is wickedness.(robbers and false prophets) And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. (this is a seal of judgment)
9Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
10Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.
There are 2 women who build the house of the image of the beast in babylon, It is established and it is set upon (her mystery babylons) own base.
I just think that this abomination that makes desolate has to do with this image of the beast (Idol) that daniel had to deal with.
Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (Prayer), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,(note set up, put on her base, placed?) there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
From the decree not to pray to the setting up the image is 1290. For 1260 of those days the two witnesses will prophesy not to take the mark or worship the image. That leaves 30 days for the decree to worship that image only.
Now 2300 days till the sanctuary is cleansed and christ is sent
Minus 1000 millinuim satan bound (1000 years as a day)
equals 1300 days Satan loosed
minus 1260 days Two witnesses, vial, plagues
equals 40 days (temptation)
Minus 30 days to worship image only
equals 10 days, tribulation then death
ressurection of witnesses out of streets
wrath, judgment of babyon. Second coming, resurrection of the dead.
Just food for thought.
Do I believe that an actual temple will be rebuilt. With all the Jewish orthodox trappings of a temple as Jesus knew it. According to the political structure and moral will as it exists today the answer is NO.
However say some group of people decided to build a theme park temple with the curator as high priest. Fake animal sacrifices. Smoke billowing up. Fake blood. Even sound effects. There might be rooms set aside for people to come and pray. This would be a great tourist attraction. This I might conceive happening. It would not have to be based on the temple mount. It would be politically acceptable to all. People could believe in it as much as they like. This would leave it open for the more religious to participate in certain feasts there.
The rabbis could come and give lectures. The priests would not have to be 100% Levites, although this would add to the sanctity if they could. The gentiles would have to be segregated during special times. So such a temple is not an impossibility. To the Jews it would become part of their Jewish heritage. To the Christian Zionist it would become the place to visit, to reconnect with their Hebrew roots.
Tours and videos to explain what happens during temple sacrifices. So this could become a reality. A good money spinner. The odd actual sacrifice would not go amiss.
As far as anyone believes it will look and sound like an actual temple.
So the reality of a working temple as Solomon knew it….NO. But something similar is very possible.
James,
Since when does perceived human obstacles or “problems”
trump the will of God? After all, “He works all things after the counsel of His will.” “A nation born in a day? Who has heard such a thing?” And yet, after God has brought the Jewish people, “all Israel who is Israel,” to the place of true repentance leading to salvation, will God bring the remnant of redeemed Jews back into the Land forever.
What this means is that the State of Israel, in its current overall spiritual condition, though part of the redemptive process, has yet to meet the Biblical criteria of the
“Final Return.” The Church also needs to be more fully prepared to fulfill its ultimate mission in the “last days” to be a prophetic people, as a witness and testimony, to the Jewish people. It will be the ultimate repayment of the debt to the Jews as their destinies are Divinely intertwined.
Jerie Quinty
I am not the Holy Spirit to be able to bring Jews out of Judaism!
when I said that I am speaking in behalf of Israel,I am referring to my feelings as a jewish beliver everytime gentile believers say that God has replaced Israel!
I know who Jesus is and I love Him with ALL my heart!
I know He is Alpha and Omega and I don’t understand why You felt the need to tell me that.
People seem to forget what Romans say in Chapter 11,that Israel shall be saved!
There are many who can quote scripture by heat and they seem to know a lot but if they knew the hart of God they wouldn’t say that He has replaced Israel!
I have wept before the Lord due to such comments!
If my son would rebel against me and my husband and leave and then if we would adopt someone else,do You think that this last person would replace him in our hearts?
The same with God!
I call those who make such statements: Ungrateful!
Like Paul said:if God has grafted the wild bramches unto Christ,how much more won’t He graft unto Himself the natrural branches?
P.S:
Jerie,
About the exemple I gave above:
I wouldn’t like to hear the stranger whom I had adopted and come to love as my son to say that he had replaced my “natural” son!
About bringing the Jews out of Judaism: Jesus Himself “wasn’t able” to bring them due to their unbelief!
It’s like trying to bring the Catholics out of Catholicism or any other relogion!
I have a neighbour who is a devouted hindu!-However her sister and her family are “extremely crazy” Christrians!They have the name of Jesus all over their cars and scriptures!
Didn’t Jesus say that a prophet is never honored in his own house in his own town and among his own family?
I made some tapes few years ago (for free) in Portuguese about salvation,baptism in water,the baptism with the Holy Spirit,praying to the Father in the Name of Jesus (and not to His mother),etc…and I sent them to Portugal.
Conclusion:some people got offended!
I have witnessed to many people about the Lord and yet 2 of them decided to get into meditation.
One even tavelled to Tailand to learn from a guru.The other one attended a 2 week workshop in the States and I found her having demonic trances!
This last one,got a word of knowledge from the Lord (through me) that her nephew had high blood pressure and it was afecting his heart.
He died a couple of weeks later and she got scared!
I took the Bible and I showed her Romans Chapter 10,Verses 9 and 10.
I had already told her that any “contact” with the spiritual world outside Christ was ilegal!-That Jesus is the Only way to the Father!
I work for people who are very rich and most of them got “The Da Vinci Code”!
Again,even though I was under their roof I told them that the message in that book was a lie!
That’s why I said that I am not the Holy Spirit to bring them!
I can witness to them but I can’t convince them!
Of course I pray for them!
God bless You!
It’s me again:
When I said that even Jesus “wasn’t able” to bring them out of Judaism,I meant that He wasn’t able to convince them of Whom He is! (not all,of course)
My Beloved is Mine and He is Yours too
I can see why you chose your blog name. God truly is your beloved, and it shows.
God Bless You.
Hey, MBIM – I don’t know why the face looks surprised, it was meant to be a big SMILEY
Fred London
Could you give me any scriptures which speak about some sort of “DEBT” owed to the Jews. Which Jews are you refering to. Are these the same ones that Jesus refered to as of you father the devil? Are we to owe a debt to them?
Or those who killed the prophets, crucified our Lord. persecuted the apostles. Rebelled and worship devils.
As far as I know the only debt is the one none of us could pay. While I have no problems with the rest of what you have to say. In fact I would say AMEN to. THE IDEA OF A “JEWISH DEBT” SORT OF PUZZLES ME. In fact both Jews and Gentiles owe God a debt.
NOTW67:
You have done a masterful job of laying out the real issues of God’s purposes concerning His covenant with Israel. I commend you for your contribution.
Fred London
——————————————————–
NOTW67 wrote:
“They were JEWS – they were ISRAEL. They were the remnant who God has NOT forsaken. The church has been grafted into the same root as that remnant and we are secure only as long as we remain faithful and obedient: otherwise we can easily be cut off that root.”
“When will those covenants be honoured?
When ALL Israel is saved, as per Paul’s prophecy.”
So which is it–a remnant of ethnic Israel(the ELECT who obtained salvation through the gift of faith) or ALL ethnic Israel, for in one post you say they were forsaken outside the remnant and in another you say ALL will be saved?
Isaiah 10:21 “A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.”
Shear-jashub means “a remnant shall return” and suggests both judgment (God’s people will be reduced to a remnant) and grace (that remnant will return; cf. 10:20–22). See 8:18 for the symbolic significance of Isaiah’s family.
In Romans 9-11:36, Paul makes it clear that God’s saving promises have been fulfilled for the Gentiles. Indeed, the church of Jesus Christ now enjoys the spiritual blessings promised to Israel: the gift of the Spirit (8:9); adoption as God’s children (8:14–17); future glory (8:17, 30); election (8:33); and the promise of never being severed from God’s love (8:35–39). Paul now asks in chs. 9–11 whether the promises God made to ethnic Israel will be fulfilled. If his promises to the Jews remain unfulfilled, how can Gentile Christians be sure that he will fulfill the great promises that conclude ch. 8? Paul answers that God is faithful to his saving promises to Israel (9:6) and that he will ultimately save his people (11:26).
And we see in 9:1-29 that God’s saving promises to Israel are irrevocable since they depend upon his word of promise and his electing grace.
But does that mean all of the physical nation of Israel?
Romans 9:27–”only a remnant of them will be saved”; the fact that only some of Israel would be saved was prophesied in Isa. 10:22–23. Most of Israel was judged, and only a remnant experienced salvation. Indeed, as Isa. 1:9 says, Israel deserved to be wiped out like Sodom and Gomorrah, but God had mercy and spared some.
Acts 15:16-18–”After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.” James refers to “prophets” (v. 15), showing that he could appeal to more than one OT text to defend the inclusion of Gentiles by faith alone. See the allusion to Isa. 45:21 in Acts 15:18, and the context of the Isaiah prophecy. James concentrated on Amos 9:11–12, which looked to the time when God would restore the house of David. Luke provides the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the text, which speaks of the Gentiles (Gk. ethnē) seeking the Lord. But even the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text fits with what James argued, since it speaks of a people called by my name (Amos 9:12), and those called by God’s name are in a saving relationship with him. Amos looked to a time when God would claim a people for himself from among the Gentiles. James concurred with Peter that the time of Gentile inclusion in God’s people had now arrived.
And what does this look forward to?
“In those days and in that time, declares the Lord, iniquity shall be sought in Israel, and there shall be none, and sin in Judah, and none shall be found, for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant.”–Jeremiah 50:20. When God restores his people, no sin will be found in them, not because they have never sinned, but because he will pardon them (31:34–”And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more”) and completely purify their hearts (31:38–40 Jerusalem will soon be destroyed, yet God will eventually rebuild it. When it is totally sacred to the Lord–Zech. 14:20–21–it will not be uprooted or overthrown anymore forever. At that time it will be Zion, the new Jerusalem, the city where God lives with his people in the permanent absence of sin–Isa. 4:2–6; 25:6–12; 65:17–25; Rev. 21:27–”But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life”).
So what do we see in Romans 11? Paul reminds us of how Elijah in his despair thought Israel would be extinguished. But God assured Elijah that he had preserved a remnant, which gave Elijah hope that God would fulfill his saving promises in the future. In Paul’s day, as in Elijah’s day (v. 4) and today, a remnant of Jews believe in Christ because of God’s electing grace (cf. 9:27–29). Vv 5 and 6–
“So too at the present time there is a remnant, CHOSEN BY GRACE. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” Which shows that ELECTION and GRACE are inseparable, for both show that salvation is God’s work alone, and that it has nothing to do with works. On grace, see also 4:4–5; Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:8–9. The composite citation from Isa. 29:10 and Deut. 29:4 in vv 7-10 clarifies that God has hardened Israel so that they would not see or hear.
Ah, but we see in v11 Israel’s hardening is not the final word. God planned salvation history so that Israel’s trespass would open salvation for the Gentiles, and the Jews in turn would be provoked to jealousy when they see Gentiles being saved and enjoying a relationship with God. If the rejection of the major